Patrick Oliver Jones:

Alright. Well, welcome back, everyone. I certainly hope you caught our last episode where George Heslin shared some incredible stories about Origin Theater Company and his work as an actor moving from Ireland and London to New York. But as always, there is more to discover. And these final five questions are where we will really get to know George from personal lessons and his thoughts about the future to offering some advice for those just starting out. So, George, let's dive into these questions. Here we are with number one. What do you remember most about your first professional show?

George Hesslin:

Well, my first professional show was with the Abbey Theatre in Dublin. It was a production of The Patriot Game by our amazing writer, Tom Murphy, director by Alan Gilsman. What I'd like to remember about it was well, we toured to Glasgow in Scotland, and I loved the touring aspect of it. I was probably twenty twenty one at this time. My experience probably was just working with we are working with our cast of all young people and and working with a great director on the script.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number two, if you could give advice to your younger self just starting out, what would that be?

George Hesslin:

It's advice to I suppose my first advice I would give myself was to open an investment retirement account, which I wish I had known. And I I you know, it's funny. I mentioned, you know, I I've I taught for a number of years at the American Academy of Dramatic Arts here in New York. And one of the classes that I taught was actually financial planning artists. And in order to be to in order to come to my second class, you had to open an investment retirement account. So one of the things I feel artists are not great at is money. I do believe you know, I I I always start my financial planning class where I speak about how in my journey, most artists I know stop acting at the age of 40, not because of laugh lack of opportunity, only because of lack of money. So they've had a great career in their twenties, in their thirties, and then they hit a wall at 40, and they're like, I have no money.

George Hesslin:

And as we know, everybody around Gongjin is moving on in your life. You know, people buy houses, buy cars, get married, and the art is very much we never plan ahead. So the art what I would tell every young artist is financial planning.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I would say that that's one of the biggest things, especially living in New York. In many ways, your your your the job you're currently in is just preparing for the unemployment that you're going to be having afterwards. So you're constantly, like, basically saving up for the unemployment to then get the next job. And so it's a constant back and forth of living off of a paycheck and then living off of savings.

George Hesslin:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. But we have to do it. We have to keep going.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And number three, what does success or making it mean to you?

George Hesslin:

I suppose, you know, as young artists, you know, we all seek fame. Isn't that part of it or whatever? You know, whatever that fame looks like. I'm so glad I'm not famous today. By the way, I just would I and, you know, what I mean by that is I I I look at people who are in the celebrity culture nowadays, and it's such a such a difficult journey because all of your life is out there. You know? So, to me, making it is keeping creative. You know? Keeping the creative journey going, risking taking new opportunities, and still be in the business. You know? And I think it's very important. Like, I look back.

George Hesslin:

I'm so grateful that I set up Origin Theatre when I was 34 years old, because it just opened so many more opportunities. And I admire people who are just actors. But I came to realization that I had so much energy, and I wanted to do so much more. So I'm glad, first of all, that I took a leap from acting to running a theater company. I'm glad that I took the challenge to become to start directing. Like, I do think every actor should start directing as soon as they can. And so many of them think they can't, but they can. And they have a great language.

George Hesslin:

And so I'm just so grateful that I took those risks. Like, setting up a theater company in New York and then a theater festival. Yeah. It was very stressful. It is very, very, very, very stressful. But, I would not change the day of it, you know, for for for what my life has become and the people that I've met along the way, you know. But for me, I think making it is still being in the industry. You know, I think also it's so important, you know, it's so important to not be competitive with your colleagues.

George Hesslin:

And Uta Hagen used to speak about this when I trained with her. But, you know, we're all in this together and you I think if you realize as an actor, you're not right for every job. You know, sure, we're all right for certain roles. But it's okay that your friend got the job or it's okay that your other friend got the job and you didn't get it. It's fine. You know, when you're in your twenties, you think your life was hanging on these auditions. But as you grow, you realize some most of the auditions I didn't get. I'm so grateful I didn't get them.

George Hesslin:

You know, for many of the plays and that I've that I went to see afterwards, I was like, I am so glad I'm not up on that stage. So I do believe in what's far you won't go by you. But you also gotta continue to put your name in the ring and and, and be eager and want to do it. You know? But, like, I never imagined remember having a a conversation with a colleague in Dublin, and she turned 40, and I was younger, and she was kinda giving up acting. And I remember and she worked all the time. And I remember chatting to her going like, how could you possibly even consider giving up acting? And now as soon as I hit 40, I mean, I'm older than 40 now, but when I hit 40, your brain changes. And I realized, oh, yeah. I've done a lot of acting.

George Hesslin:

Yeah. I wanna do something else. And I don't mean this next comment in any arrogant way, but when you get good at acting, it it's an easy process. And there is a process behind it. Breaking down the script, you know, putting images behind the words. You know? We know when you get it when you're in rehearsal rooms and up, there's a process behind it. And you you get very good at this process, which I enjoyed and I love doing. But then I wanted another challenge.

George Hesslin:

So when I became a director and started directing, I just loved the idea that you're involved in every character. You know? And that really spoke to me. And also, of course, when you're a director, you're responsible for the whole visual, for the whole experience from the sound design to the lighting design and also collaborative work working with artists. You know, I directed a production of In the Heights up at Lehman Stages a number of years ago. And, you know, I'd never directed a musical before, but I loved working with a musical director. I loved working with a choreographer. Yeah. So that's to me, making it is just living a creative life.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, number four, what changes would you like to see in the industry moving forward?

George Hesslin:

Well, every union in the world get actors back into the room and rehearse live auditions. And please, please, please stop this nonsense of on camera auditions. We're losing so much talent. And I mean, we're losing so much talent. Not everybody can do recordings on Zoom. Not everybody bring actors back into rooms. You know? And it's not just about it's convenient for casting directors. No.

George Hesslin:

When an actor goes to an audition, they get out of bed, they travel, they meet their community, they go for coffee with their colleagues. The union needs to immediately, in my opinion, instigate live, real auditions back in person. I think it's crippling our industry. I think it's crippling artists. I think it's crippling young artists in their 20s. Audition structure structures your life. As somebody once said, an audition is an opportunity to act. And whether you get the job is much out of your control, but at least you're given an opportunity to to act.

George Hesslin:

You know? So I couldn't imagine casting a play on a Zoom. I just couldn't imagine that. I would be afraid to cast a play on this process in on a Zoom or or on or through video. You know? And I'm sorry. It's just laziness. We're over cause. Get back. That's what I think the industry's finished.

George Hesslin:

And, sure, it's convenient for casting directors. Some of my friends are casting directors. It's great, but it's not. You know? It's a three-dimensional experience. You know? And if you want to have young if you wanna have actors to have extend this career in their forties and fifties, you respect them in their twenties or they will walk out the door. You know? And I do think a lot of talent is being missed at the moment. And we know this. Like, some some of the greatest artists we know are not great at technology.

George Hesslin:

They just wanna put words and truth behind words and do it in front of people.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I absolutely agree with you. But I will push back and just give you that other side because I I've heard as as you mentioned, casting directors, that's certainly easier for them. They get to see a lot more people quickly. The other the other, I guess, pro to self tapes is that someone in Idaho can then have a chance at auditioning for a New York production even though they're not in New York. So maybe it does broaden the the sphere of who can audition for things. Well, what what do you say to that?

George Hesslin:

Well, I agree with you. I'm not I'm not in disagreement. You know, I get the convenience of it all. I get modern technology. I completely do. We all do Zoom. It's the most convenient thing in the world. But I do believe if you're dealing with an artist who is a performer, you have to give them an opportunity to stand in front of people and perform at some point in the process.

George Hesslin:

You know? So it works both ways, but I, as a director, would rather see people live in a room. That's just how I work.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Ed Ed Ed Ed I I only push back because I I've heard this argument because I'm I'm on your side in saying self tapes for for film and TV, it makes some sense. You know? I I kind of understand because you're on screen. That that's an on screen audition. Okay. That that that can be part of the process. But for live theater, you gotta be in the room. You gotta you gotta feel their energy. You gotta see how they move in the space, and and you don't get that in a box on a screen.

George Hesslin:

Well, it's also have to get close people. You know? Like, you might be good with technology as you clearly are. I'm not. So when I do a self tape audition, I have to pay $200 to somebody. Not every even not every artist has $200 to spend four times a week on a self tape. So it's great for those kids in their twenties who can do all their editing and chopping and changing that they know how to do. A lot of people don't know how to do that. So maybe may maybe the rule should be that if you're over 30, you can come into the room in person.

George Hesslin:

And maybe if you're 20, go ahead. You you understand the technology, knock yourself out.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That that that that would be, that would be funny to have age based auditioning process. That that that's that's funny. Well, as we get to the last question here, describe a personal lesson that's taken you a while to learn or one that you're still working on to this day.

George Hesslin:

A lesson that I've learned in my in the industry is communication. And what I mean by that is that and I is I think it's important for artists to finish the circle of communication. What I mean by that is many times I've repressed I've I've I have, recommended actors for an audition. I get calls all the time. You're a director. People call you for confidentially. People call you for suggestions. So if I recommend an actor to go into a room for an audition, and this happens all the time.

George Hesslin:

The actor goes into the room and they don't tell me how their audition went. The first person that director is calling before they bring back that person to round two is me. I recommended John to go in for the audition. If John hasn't said back to me, George, the audition went really well. I felt I was good in the first side. I felt I was a bit weaker in the second. I don't know if I took the director's notes. Now when that director calls me, I can say, John had a bad day.

George Hesslin:

He felt the first side went well. So communicate with the person who recommended you for the job. Because before you get that job, the only person who's gonna get you over that line, because they are going to call that person back. And actors don't do that. The amount of people who I recommend for auditions, and you never hear the outcome. And often the director will call me and go, John was in for an audition. What do you think of him? Or a director will say, John was in. I'm not sure if he did good or bad day, but we're it's a risk to hire him.

George Hesslin:

What do you think? I have nothing to say? I can't help John any any step further. And, like, I have nothing to say. I can't talk about the audition. So finish the circle of communication. Whoever recommended you for the job, give them feedback because they're going to be contacted again 1000% in my experience.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So interesting how collaborative theater can be, but yet for us actors, we can feel like it's very insular. Like like, we're very in our own little world, we're in our own little path, and we kinda get the blinders on. So we kinda can forget about what you say about communication, about bringing others in, asking for help, doing all that kind of collaborative process, not just in the room, but also the auditions and everything else before we get in the room.

George Hesslin:

Yeah. Well, it's it's like, you know, it's like it's like, actors leaving directors names off their resume. You know, the amount of people who I get resumes from, and they don't have the directors. Would you leave Steven Spielberg's name off your resume? I mean, it's shocking to me that a lot of people don't put directors on their resume. The first thing we look at as employers is is who you worked with. The only thing we look at is who you worked with. That's the I always say when a producer reads a resume backwards, as an actor, how you read a resume is left to right. I loved I loved being West Side Story.

George Hesslin:

I loved that it was on Broadway, the second line. I loved that it was written by so and so. As producers, we read the resume backwards. The first thing we look at is who did you work with? The second thing we look at is where did you work? The third thing we look at is the character, and the fourth thing, the least important is the name of the play. So producers read resume as completely different. And so often, you know, I had this situation about twelve years ago in New York where we wanted to hire an actress. And she came in three times for the audition, then we had a very famous, well known New York casting director. And the final call was down to me.

George Hesslin:

And I said, look. I'm so and remember as producers when you produce theater, it's a big financial risk. If you're hiring four actors, you better find the four correct right people. And I mean everything from psychologically ready to do the work, that so and so doesn't have a nervous breakdown in week three because the finance now now you're screwed financially. Project is now in chaos. So before we hire somebody, it's why we have agents. It's why you call agents and you're confidentially asked, what's this person like? So there was an actress and she came back, like I said, three or four times and the director wanted to hire her, The casting director wanted to hire her. And I said, look folks, I'm just concerned why she's left all of her directors off of her resume.

George Hesslin:

Does she not want us to call them? Has she has has she left chaos in her background? Like, why would you leave your employer's name off of your resume? So what we decided to do was I called her agents, and I said, can I take her for a cup of coffee? And I did. And I said, we wanna give you this job, but we are so afraid because you have hidden all that your employers. Why did you leave all your director? And they were huge directors. I said, why did you leave them off of your resume? Half of them I knew, but I didn't you know? And she started crying. And this woman was about 35. And she said, George, she said, I'm just crying because I can't believe all of the opportunities I've missed in my twenties because I've left the directors off of my resume. And I went, yes. Yes.

George Hesslin:

All of the opportunities you've missed in your twenties. And I don't know who tells young actors this, and I see it all the time. The other classic I see is, why don't you put the good directors down? How do you think the other directors feel when they see a resume? You know? So, anyway, I'm just to be believer in that your resume most definitely should have all of the directors you work with. You cannot have enough names on that resume. You know? But there are some of the lessons that I've learned along the way and things I've passed on. And, you know, again, I suppose when you go to the journey of actor, director, producer, you get to see the industry through many lenses, you know, in situations, you

Patrick Oliver Jones:

know. Yeah. It's interesting because I think it was in in my thirties whenever I first saw directors on the resume. I was like, oh, that's something you do. It just never even dawned on me that that was something I needed to do. Also, coming from Birmingham, and and it wasn't I wasn't in New York till my till my thirties anyway. But coming from Birmingham and Orlando and Florida, you know, so I was in smaller communities where they probably they they probably knew the theater company more than they would know probably the director. So, you know, in in certain communities, it may might not mean as much.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

But, but, yeah, it it took me a few years in New York before I realized, oh, that's a thing. And then, obviously, once I started working with New York directors, it meant a lot more, of course.

George Hesslin:

Right. Right. Right. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. Well, George, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and your stories with us.

George Hesslin:

Thank you, Patrick. Thank you. And hello, and thank you to all of your listeners as well.

Narrator:

Thank you so much for joining whyI'll never make it. And don't forget, you can become a subscriber and get bonus conversations by going to whyI'llnevermakeit.com and click subscribe, or just look for the link in the show notes. Be sure to join me next time as we talk more about why I'll nevermake it.