Patrick Oliver Jones:

For a country small in size, Ireland has long been a masterclass in turning pain into poetry and occasionally passive aggressive sarcasm. Whether it's the lyrical soul of W. B. Yeats, the brutal beauty of Martin McDonough, or the biting wit of Oscar finagle o'Flaherty Wills Wylde, better known as just Oscar Wilde. Irish writers have taken the English language and made it something fierce, beautiful, and deeply human. As Wilde himself once put it, the Saxon took our lands from us and left them desolate. We took their language and added new beauties to it. And that is what today's guest has been doing his whole career, finding the beauty, the power, and the possibility in stories.

George Hesslin:

Hello. Good afternoon. My name is George Hessland. I'm originally from Limerick City in Ireland, and I now live in New York City where I serve as executive director of the New York Irish Center in Long Island City. One stop from Grand Central Station, 7 Minutes and the seven.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

George came to New York in the mid nineties. Though, as he'll tell you, it wasn't exactly his dream. So when George landed in the city, he didn't exactly hit the ground running. He spent four years as a struggling actor trying to find his footing, but mostly just feeling lost and lonely. But with the help of the legendary acting teacher, Uta Hagen, something remarkable eventually emerged. In 02/2002, George founded the Origin Theater Company, literally with a credit card and a dream, and spent nearly twenty years bringing bold international voices to the New York stage. And now he's continuing that mission in a new way, serving as executive director of the New York Irish Center. In this episode, we talk about that journey, how someone who came here reluctantly ended up becoming a champion for Irish and European artists in America, and how his story is just one chapter in the long, rich legacy of Irish theater finding new life across the ocean.

George Hesslin:

I'm Patrick Oliver Jones, and thank you for joining me on

Patrick Oliver Jones:

season nine, Patrick Oliver Jones, and thank you for joining me on season nine of why I'll never make it, an award winning theater podcast where I talk with fellow creatives about three stories or moments of personal struggle and professional hardship. Subscribers will get additional audition stories as well as early access to the episodes. The website is whyI'llnevermakeit.com where you can subscribe, donate, and learn more about the podcast. Again, that's why I'llnevermakeit.com. Well, welcome, George. It is such a pleasure to meet you. So glad that you're taking time out and joining the podcast today.

George Hesslin:

Thank you, Patrick. Excuse me. An honor to be here.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Now now many of the best known and and most loved playwrights in all of theater come from Ireland. There there there's Oscar Wilde, Samuel Beckett, George Bernard Shaw, Edna Walsh. I mean, the list goes on. Eugene O'Neill, of course. He's American, but came from Irish immigrants. What do you think it is about about Ireland, the Irish people that produce such amazing playwrights?

George Hesslin:

I think it's very simple. We produce theater. When I first got to America, I was astounded to learn of this reading play based culture. All over America, all you see is play readings as readings as readings. What we do in Ireland, thanks to the Arts Council and the support of a great government, we produce theater. So playwrights like Conor McPherson and Eddard Walsh, these people were reviewed in the Irish Times when they were 19 years old and 20 years old, when they were, performing, like, Conor Macpherson did a lot of his early work in University College, Dublin, with the drama society from the college. And the Irish Times at that time would actually go onto the campus and review the work. So while people, in my opinion, while people think about we have a great, and we do have a great historical culture of of theater, but we invest in theater.

George Hesslin:

We invest in culture. In Ireland today, there's an artist salary. Every actor who's unemployed gets paid. They're not on unemployment. They're co they get an artist fee from the government. So the Irish government are really, really good in supporting culture, the Arts Council. And we care about art and we care about culture. But the big thing is we invest in it.

George Hesslin:

And that's why we have so many voices around the world because of investment. It's not a magical theory. It's not that the weather is more miserable. It's that we invest in art, in my opinion. Now many things have been written on top of that, which is, you know, the weather in Ireland is very, very bad. I read this, I read this, article a number of years ago speaking about, if you look at colder climates around the world, a lot of culture comes from damper colder climates. So even if you look at America, a lot of writers come from the East Coast Of America. You know, if you look at cultures like, England, again, the weather is very, very bad, but a high level of culture and creativity.

George Hesslin:

So I read this article a number of years ago speaking about how, you know, out of depression comes creativity. Out of dark times comes creativity. And when you live in a culture, a place like Ireland, where the weather isn't, isn't great, I think it creates a lot of conversation and a lot of, a lot of ideas and a lot of art.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That's a very interesting way to look at it. Yeah. As you were saying that, even talking about comedians, you know, some of the greatest comedians come from, you know, a hard background or, you know, depression in their lives or, you know, family dynamics that that were challenging. So, yeah. It's it's these kind of harsh conditions, so to speak, that can bring forth great art.

George Hesslin:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. You know? And, you know, Ireland has a great tradition, obviously, of storytelling, you know. Obviously, you know, in our history where we were invaded by the British, you know, our language was under threat for hundreds of years. And, you know, as a result of that, we had to strive through storytelling to keep the language alive. And, of course, that also feeds into today in terms of writing and and literature as well.

George Hesslin:

You know, that we had to fight for the language. And, you know, the language of the Irish language, there's a big revival going on in the Irish language at the moment in Ireland. You know, There was a recent film, you might have seen it already, called Ni Cap, which has a, you know, was nominated for an Oscar and everything this year. Yeah. I, Yeah. So there's a a lot of cultural cultural, like, a cultural awareness in Ireland and a lot of, a lot of producing of good work.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. And and you talked about how how plays are produced rather than, you know, developed in reading and reading reading. Do you do you think that that also I I guess in some way, if it's just produced, if it goes straight to the stage without that long development process, you kind of learn quickly what works and what doesn't work on stage.

George Hesslin:

Yes. But you have to trust the writer as well. You know, of course, we have a development process in Ireland. Of course, every great playwright has written many, many drafts of plays. But I often feel with a play that for a writer to really, really see the world come alive, they see that more in a production than they do in a reading. You know, obviously, theater is a collaborative engagement and a collaborative art form. And so when you provide a writer with all of the elements and great elements, that all they all feed into the story, you know? So we do, of course, have a development process. But if you look at writers like Tom Murphy, Brian Friel, all of our great writers, they wrote in a room.

George Hesslin:

They didn't write with actors. They wrote plays, three act plays, and they delivered them. You know, and, yeah, we're working with dramaturgs. But I just mean I just mean in New when I first got to New York, I was just astounded by I was involved in plays for four years when I got to New York. I was going, how many readings of this are we going to do? I don't think it's of much value to the playwright. And I think it's of some value, but I think it's not much value in the overall scheme of things, you know. And I think it was all of these this knowledge as well that kind of inspired me, which we'll talk about later, is to set up an Irish theater festival in New York.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

For sure. Well, let's well, let's get to your first story. And this is when you moved to New York in 1994. And at the time, you were actually building your theater career in London. This was after college, and and it was your dad who applied for your green card. Now this wasn't your idea, and and you didn't particularly want to come to New York. Now for a lot of actors, New York is is a dream destination. Why was that not the case for you?

George Hesslin:

Well, growing up in Ireland, you know, you're you're on the doorstep of London. So I think a lot of my dreams lay in London when I was a young child and young actor that I wanted to, you know, London was where I saw my journey developing. And so I finished I studied drama in Dublin at Trinity College. And, prior to that, I had worked out actually as an assistant stage manager in an exceptional theater in Dublin called the Gates Theatre. And, you know, I was 19 years old and I ended up working on 13 productions with some of Ireland's greatest directors, Joe Dowling, Ben Barnes, Patrick Mason, Gary Hynes, a number of others. And when you're 19 in rehearsal rooms at that level, you are learning through osmosis and you're just learning professionalism, and you don't realize this until later on in life, you know. So before I went to drama school, I had that incredible experience. I also did a project with the National Youth Theatre.

George Hesslin:

And when I finished, in Trinity about six months afterwards, I did a show at the Abbey, called The Patriot Game by Tom Murphy, the playwright. And about six months after college, I said, okay. I'm I'm gonna move to London. So I moved to London And, I was in London for about six weeks. And, I got, I got an audition in a theater called the King's Head Theatre, which is a wonderful pub theater. It's actually the oldest pub theater in The UK in Islington, London. And, found by a wonderful American man from New Jersey called Dan Crawford. So the King's Head was very much a feeder theater for the West End.

George Hesslin:

A lot of work that ended up in the West End came from the King's Head. A lot of new writing was developed at the King's Head. So in '92, as I say, when I moved to London, I got a part a part in a production called Philadelphia Here I Come at the King's Head and that transferred to the West End. So that production, that ended up being a year's work. And then, following that production, I ended up doing another play at the King's Head called Elegies and that also transferred to the West End. So, I was very very happily living in London and, in Ireland, a lot of people travel to Australia under the age of 26. The Irish government and the Australian government have a reciprocal visa agreement. So, a lot of Irish people have lived in Australia, including all of my siblings.

George Hesslin:

So I was on my after two years in London, I was on my way to Australia like every other Irish person. And my father I was going down on a Wednesday to buy the ticket to Australia. And on a Monday, my father said, I put your name in the lottery for a green card, and you got a green card. So I was like, what's a green card? So I learned was, and my father said, come to New York. You wanna be an actor? Don't go to Australia. So in 1994, I came to New York. And I arrived here in 06/10/1994. And, I don't know who'd know he won at the time.

George Hesslin:

And, a friend of mine, Tim Reynolds, Tim was a graduate of Trinity as well. Tim was an actor and he lived here. Tim Tim now is still living here in New York and he's very well known in the in the audiobook industry. You know, he does quite a number of audiobooks. But, I came to the stay with Tim and his very generous wife at the time. And, I also when I was in London, I have a dear friend, and a wonderful actor called Brendan Coyle. You might know Brendan. He's in he's placed mister Bates in Downton Abbey.

George Hesslin:

So Brendan and I are dear friends, and we met in Philadelphia. Here I come. We were both in that production together. So in 9293, Brendan gave me a gift, an opening night gift, of a book called Challenge for the Actor by a woman called Uta Hagen. So I never heard of Uta Hagen, but I became obsessed with this book. And when I arrived here in '94, '1 of my friends in New York said, you're you're obsessed with Uta Hagen and she's having auditions next week for her master class. So I asked she thought she was deceased at that time. So I went over to the HB studio and I auditioned for Uta in '94 and I ended up getting into her master class and studying with her for two years, which changed my life in every aspect.

George Hesslin:

So that's kinda, you know, Ootah and the education and training is very much what kept me coming back to New York and staying in New York. And, you know, in the early when I got here originally, you know, I very much kept in touch with London and Ireland. And for a good two years I was working in all three places trying to keep it all going, you know, in three locations and then yeah. And then but but it was very much Ootah and her great, acting classes that kept me coming back to New York. And then my career started to develop here, and I started getting more acting work here. And and then finally in February, I gave up my apartment in Dublin, kind of settled full time in New York.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so, what was it that as you were being this world traveler basically going back and forth between Ireland, London, and New York, what was it that made you decide on New York versus going back to London, which is where you had begun?

George Hesslin:

Good question. I think, well, New York is so exciting. You know? I mean and, there's so much opportunity here. And yeah. And I suppose there comes a point in your in all of our lives where you feel you've done that city, then move on to the next one. And, you know, so I, you know, I was very fortunate and lucky in London. And then, yeah, kind of life life kind of took off here, you know, and connections started to build here. So that's kind of what kept me here.

George Hesslin:

And like I said, I started getting acting jobs here and and it's so exciting, you know. Touring is so exciting in America, you know, going to all these great cities and traveling. And, you know, and I know and also, you know, the other thing is I I loved the language of directors in America. I felt I felt the director's language in America was much more specific than directors I worked with in Ireland or England at the time. You know, I felt that the the language of the rehearsal room, it was like a language that I hadn't really heard before. You know, I mean, it might be there before, but it's just like I don't know. I just, you know, I worked with some great directors. You know, I worked with a wonderful director called Eddie Gilbert.

George Hesslin:

Eddie was the artistic director of the Pittsburgh Public Theatre. And I did a production of Conor McPherson's The Weir. But Eddie is just you know, he's originally from Canada via London, but just an incredible artist and a director. And so I think that's what kept me staying here as well is the quality of the directors I began to work with, you know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. You talk about that specificity. What was so different from past directors that you had worked with?

George Hesslin:

Well, I think there's a language through well, first of all, if if you look back at, you know, training for an actor in Ireland, you know, we only really got drama schools in Ireland. You know, a lot of professional artists in Ireland came out of the amateur scene in the thirties, the forties, the fifties, the sixties. So a lot of a lot of artists we would know like Maureen O'Hara, you know, or any of these famous people in Hollywood, a lot of them were amateur actors in Ireland at the time. And, you know, remember the state of Ireland as a country was only set up in 1922. So our national theater pulled a lot of artists who were amateur actors into creative professional company. So all that is to say that, you know, the concept of training, as an actor in drama school, you know, I don't want to, you know the the first kind of structured drama school in Ireland was set up only in 1987. So prior to that, training wasn't a big thing in Ireland. And, certainly, director training was not a big thing in Ireland.

George Hesslin:

It is now their director's programs, etcetera. But, certainly, there was no director's program in the sixties, the seventies, the eighties. So that new language I'm not saying I haven't worked in Ireland for a number of years. You can go visit all the time. But I have not been in a rehearsal room in Ireland for a number of years. But, you know, I'm sure that has changed in Ireland as well with the advent of director education. And, you know, actors coming out of drama schools now are very, very prepared. They have an amazing toolbox of, of skills and techniques that they use.

George Hesslin:

You know, I taught myself here in New York. I actually was I taught and directed at the American Academy of Traumatic Arts for sixteen years. So I got to work with a lot of young artists, young actors, in the classroom arena. But, but yeah. So artists, actors are very skilled people in what they do. You know? But I think that's what I feel about, you know, the specificity of directors at the time in America was much stronger than what I was seeing. But I think it's probably balanced itself probably. There's great Irish theater directors as we know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And you have moved on to directing, artistic directing, producing. What what was that transition, and did you ever wanna go back to acting, or have you still tried to keep your foot in that arena as well?

George Hesslin:

Well, my first directing job was, again, I go back to this, the ten thousand hour theory or whatever. You know? Like, because I was an assistant stage manager in a professional theater company in Dublin, even though I wasn't an actor in that room, you still are part of the creative process, even though you're just buying the props. So I think, I think being around professionals of that level like like I said, when I was 19, I worked with the top Irish actors, John Cadena, Maureen Potter, Kate Flynn, Marina Dwyer. I mean, these are big names in Irish theater. And when I was around them as a as a teenager, you're you're learning, as I said earlier. So after, when I studied with Uta Hagen, in 1997, I went back to Ireland for six months. And I was at an art gallery opening. I have a friend called Amanda Coogan.

George Hesslin:

Amanda is a now very well known Irish artist. But at the time, I was at the wine reception. And I met, like, the young guy there at the time, and we just got talking at the reception. And I had said that I would love to direct a play. I said I was an actor, and he said, oh, I would love to be a writer. And he said, I've written some plays, and I've never shown them to anybody. And I said, you know, we met for coffee in a few days later, and I literally begged him to share his work with me. I said, can you can you share some of the work? And he he was not working at the theater at the time.

George Hesslin:

He was a young writer. And and he gave me three envelopes in which were three plays, and I read one of the well, I'd read them all, but one of them jumped out at me and I was like, this is incredible writing. So I borrowed £5,000 from the bank in Ireland, and I produced my first play. And that playwright was an Irish writer by the name of Mark O'Row. For Mark O'Row, that was his first play, first time he produced ever. Mark O'Row now comes to New York and sells out the Public Theater, Saint Dan's Warehouse. And he is one of the probably top three playwrights in Ireland today. He's written tons of movies, Interimvision and many others.

George Hesslin:

That was my first director experience.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So with the training that you got from Uta Hagen, obviously, very, very actor based. I assume that that has informed also your directing and the way that you approach other actors.

George Hesslin:

Absolutely. Yes. Uta's language is so specific. And what I think was amazing about Uta, and I've worked with other acting teachers, but she had developed a language that an artist knew how to activate. You know, I think there's a lot of acting language, a lot of acting exercises that can confuse the artist. But I think Oudra was so dedicated in as a teacher that she provides a language that can activate the artist. And that's very much a language that I have used in my directing as well. Well, first of all, trusting the artist.

George Hesslin:

Secondly, realizing that if you give a no to an artist, for some actors, it takes a few days for that to resonate. They're baking it, they're putting it all together in the rehearsal floor. And, but no, Oud, this language is very much part of my directing language. Absolutely. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, as we get into story number two, this is about setting up the Origin Theater Company.

George Hesslin:

New York and the whole of New York came to a standstill. And it was over, you know, that was in September, obviously, and then we were all sitting in New York, not doing much at the time in recovery. And in January, I said, of 02/2002, I pulled out my credit card and said I was gonna set up a theater company. So the word origin actually comes from Uta. When you study with Ootah Hagen, she always talked about the source of an emotion. And her autobiography is actually called A Memoir. So at the time, I wanted to set up the company. I wanted to call it Source after Ootah.

George Hesslin:

But at the time, there was a children's theater company here in New York called Source. So I couldn't use that word. So I reached out to some friends of mine, and I have a dear friend in Dublin, Shel Hauter. And Michelle suggested the word Origin as a similar word to a Source. So I called the company Origin. And our mission was to launch to do American premiers of European playwrights. So over the course of its history, Origins produced work from over 20 European countries. So, yeah.

George Hesslin:

So that's where the name the name came from out of, out of love and respect for Interhaga.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And it was only shortly after creating Origin that you went on tour yourself. I'm I'm on tour right now with Beetlejuice the musical, so I I certainly know what it's like to travel the country, And you got to do that with Stones in his pocket. It was by the Irish playwright Marie Jones, and it starred Bronson Pinchot. How how was that experience traveling for you?

George Hesslin:

Well, the experience was great. You know, what happened, like, going back to Origins. Origin, I produced I produced Mr. Man in February, and that was Endo Walsh's first play ever reproduced in America. So, you know, the company got known for launching the work of of of great writers. And so the the experience was great. I mean, it's probably like one of those shocking moments of as an audition that I I never expected to get this job. You know what I mean? And and also, as we all know as artists, it's when you're so busy doing something else that you land the job when it's just unexpected, you know? So, I got the tour of, Stones in His Pockets in the January in the January 2002 with the director, Ian McElhenney.

George Hesslin:

Ian is actually the the husband of the fair amount of Mary Jones, and he was the original director. So we ended up, the Broadway tour was produced by the Old Globe in San Diego. And so we spent our five weeks rehearsing in San Diego, and it was a great experience. It was also a great way to see America. It was a great way to see all these great cities. So, at the time, we had two we had two companies on the road. We had Bronson Pinchot and Chris Burns were company one, and then myself and a gentleman actor by the name of Tim Roddy were company two. So between the two parties, we would do four shows a week in different places.

George Hesslin:

But also for me, you know, what was bubbling underneath was as I would have conversations around The States, what surprised me was what people in America thought contemporary Irish theater was. So when you would have these conversations, like, they were very much referring to playwrights from the 1940s and the fifties and the sixties. And that was another impetus for me in terms of, like, realizing, my god. We've all these contemporary Irish playwrights in Ireland there, and nobody knows who they are. Like, a lot of people in England knew who they were, but nobody nobody knew who they were in America. So, you know, the the Between Stones and These Pockets Couture and I booked the job somewhere else, I probably ended up working in Stones for almost two years overall, you know? But at the time, I was reading a lot of reading of plays and, you know, researching writers, etcetera. And, but, you know, looking back in it, it was those two years where I was formulating the company and thinking strategically about it. And also, just realizing the impact that contemporary Irish playwriting can have in America, you know.

George Hesslin:

And, yeah. So that was kind of the journey of Stones, but it was a great great experience, exhausting experience. You know, every show is difficult, but, you know, one or two person shows is a different muscle. But, but it was it was a great great time. Great working with Bronson and all of the team. Yeah. Exceptional. Great great fun.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Obviously, you have origin back home in New York. How are you able to keep the company growing and going while you're on the road?

George Hesslin:

Well, we did it. You know, we for which first of all started off when we launched a reading series and I would have done that during the month of May. We did that here in New York in a lovely venue in Washington Square called Glucksmilkyn, Ireland House. That's the Irish studies department of NYU. So they very kindly entered into a partnership with us where they give us free space to do that. So at the beginning, we were kinda set off during readings. And the other great story about Building Origin is at the time when I set up the company, I put an ad on Craigslist and I said small start up theater company requires development director. The truth is that I didn't even know what a development director was at the time, but one woman responded me to the ad and her name was Eva Brunei.

George Hesslin:

And I met Eva for a cup of coffee in 02/2002 And I gave her my vision. I laid out the vision for the European theater company. And at the end of the conversation, she asked me how much my budget was. And I said, oh, I have no money. I said, I have a vision, but I have no money. And I said, that's why I put the word Stark, a theater company in the ad. And what I didn't realize at the time that Eva was one of the most well known recognized development directors in New York, and she had worked for huge institutions here. And we're still friends to this day.

George Hesslin:

And Eva at that time said, I really like what you're doing here. She said, I'm going to mentor you for three years. I'm going to get you a not for profit status. I'm gonna teach you how to build a board of directors. I'm gonna teach you how to fundraise. And Eva was by my side, and we built this company. And, I'll be forever grateful for our mentorship. You know, when you're when you're working with somebody, it just keeps you motivated as well, you know.

George Hesslin:

And yeah. And we kind of put a lot of structure about it around it. But but to have that level of expertise by your side as well was really instrumental in in planning strategy and in growing the operation in the company, you know?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. I mean, because when it comes to artists, I mean, we we certainly have have a head for the creative, but not always ahead for the administrative business side of things.

George Hesslin:

Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of yeah. I'm told I'm lucky in that I have both. But, yeah. I mean, I I enjoyed it, but I love producing as well. You know, I get I get a buzz out of it. When I ran Origin, you know, I only acted in one production of Origin in all the years, and every director would would say, George, you run this company. You give your life to it.

George Hesslin:

You should put yourself in it more. I only ever directed one production. I but I felt in running the company that it's really important as an artistic director that you give the stage and the space to other people. You know, I mean, so I felt it was the only way the company would survive is that if I was in the lobby of the theater welcoming people, greeting people, nurturing people. And that's why I chose to stay out of the artistic. I was the artistic director, but I very much kept directors coming through Origin. I very much kept different actors coming through Origin. But you do have to be unselfish in that way that you give the light to others.

George Hesslin:

And and I don't mean that in many, pious way in this conversation, but I just it never bothered me. I I felt very fortunate that I I've acted a lot and I've I, you know, I've so when you use your when you get to use the muscle a lot, I have my resentment about moving on to directing or producing. You know, you know, if I had my choice right now, it's directing. I mean, I I I I I'd really love love working with actors in a room. I I love watching that whole process come together, you know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I love being in the room myself, so it's certainly something that I enjoy. And with so much theater in and around New York City, was it hard for Origin to make a name for itself and get noticed as it was developing?

George Hesslin:

Well, you know, the funny thing is when I came to America in '94, my first few years were very disjointed in that it was very hard. Like, at the time, you know, people were like, oh, the Off Broadway scene. The truth is, I couldn't kinda know where the Off Broadway scene was because, remember, in the nineties, a lot of these theaters were in basements or, you know, they've all now developed. You know, that's what people don't realize. And a lot of it it's like, a lot of these theater companies have actually been developed in the last twenty five years. And what I mean by that is, like, you know, our four our lovely theaters on 40 Second Street, you know, they're probably all 25 years old. So at the time, the concept of what Off Broadway was was very, very different. You know? So it took me a while as an artist to kinda find my community here.

George Hesslin:

You know? And, one game changer for me happened actually was in 1998. I randomly got a job. There was a there was a a music festival called the Guinness Flower Festival, which was produced by Guinness, the company, and it was on Oranda's Island. And, you know, there was 200,000 people at this music festival over three days. And there was three stages. On the first stage was Sinead O'Connor, Van Morrison. I mean, the a list of Irish artists. And in 1998, randomly, I don't know how Guinness or got my number, well, I do now, but at the time I couldn't.

George Hesslin:

But I they hired me to produce a cultural stage in Randall's Island. So I literally, in the course of one weekend, in getting this job, I was handed a list of all the Irish artists in New York City, and my job was to produce this cultural stage on Randall's Island in 1998. So literally in that weekend, I went from somebody who didn't really know an artistic community, and I got to know every Irish artist in New York over that three days. And we're still friends to this day. But, you know, the Guinness Law Festival, that was a big game changer for me in terms of finding a community in New York. Up to that, it was hard to it's hard to find it. I can see you know? And I see that as well with artists when they come from other countries to New York. It's hard to, and I think that was another part of origin as well.

George Hesslin:

I loved welcoming people. I loved loved, you know, I loved I love yeah. I love that people could find a home around it and a community around it, you know. But yes. So so so the the Guinness Bluff Festival was another big kinda touchstone for my life that that kind of opened a lot of doors and connections, you know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

In 02/2008 with the, with Origin Theatre Company, you then began the first Irish festival as well. What exactly led to this creation?

George Hesslin:

How that came about was, when Origin began in 02/2002, I was at a reception in the British consulate residence. And I got to meet a gentleman at the time called Peter Teer. And Peter, along with Elizabeth Klein hands, had just opened a venue here in New York called fifty nine e fifty nine. And so fifty nine e fifty nine opened its doors in 02/2002 and so did Origin. So, when I met Peter and Elizabeth, they actually invited Origin in to be, one of their resident theater companies at fifty nine e fifty nine. And to this day, obviously, it's a wonderful institution, but it was amazing to be in that in fifty ninety fifty nine as a kind of a home when we produce the work there two or three times a year. So then in 02/2008, I felt that there was an opening in New York for an Irish theater festival. So I approached fifty nine and fifty nine, and I asked them, would they dedicate both of their theaters, for a month? Would they could I rent both spaces for a month? So in 09/00/2008, I rented the spaces at $50.90 59, and I produced, I commissioned five Irish playwrights to write short plays, which we did with theater b for four weeks.

George Hesslin:

And then I reached out to three theater companies across America in the other space, and I invited, companies from Boston, Philadelphia. And then a few people contacted me. They said, oh, I heard you're setting up an Irish theater festival. And I said, well, that's right. And then they said, well, could we produce some theater elsewhere? So in the first year of the festival, you know, idea for the idea the idea probably came in January. And then by the time the whole festival came together was in September. And in the very first year of that festival, we did the work of 13 Irish playwrights in eight venues across the city. So that's where the festival began.

George Hesslin:

And the festival, oh, so far has done the work of over 300 Irish playwrights in New York. Most of those playwrights, there was the American premiere where they worked. Everyone a lot of them were reviewed in the New York Times. And in one of the festivals, you know, we we did the media. We used to do the tracking of the of the media value of the festival. We used to hire a company who would basically cut all the clippings from the festival out, and they would put a financial measurement on the bat. And I remember in 02/2017, the media marketing value for the festival was $17,000,000, which means if you had to buy all of the pieces that were in the American newspapers, that's what would have cost that's how many inches we were getting for this festival. And I remember in 02/2017, I think in in one in one publication of the New York Times, there was four reviews for the festival.

George Hesslin:

And these are all unknown writers, and huge amount of these writers have gotten American agents out of it, and it has been a huge springboard. And now I left Origin in 02/2020, and it's been led now by a wonderful artistic director called Mick Malamphy. So it's a very proud moment to kind of, a, that it's established, but, b, that it's a mimp back in so many lives. And I think, c, that it's continued after I've left, which is kind of, you know, everybody wants their work to continue. So Mick is doing a very, very, very good job.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, as we get into story number three, we talk about the next chapter in your career, and this is with the New York Irish Center. And you are currently the executive director of the center, and you've been there since 2020. How exactly did you land this job?

George Hesslin:

The center was is this year celebrating its twentieth anniversary. So, Gwen and I mentioned earlier, the festival was running a number of venues. So we started using the Irish center here as a venue for the first Irish Festival about ten years ago. So we would bring shows from Ireland, and we would put some in fifty ninety fifty nine and and other venues across town. And then we started using this venue as well. So that's how I got to know, the organization here. And I got to know the executive director at the time, Paul Finnegan, and the program director here at the time was Jane McCarter. So that's how I got to know the organization.

George Hesslin:

And then, in 02/2019, I was invited to interview for this position along with others. And through a series of interviews, I met with the board of directors here a number of times, and then the pandemic happened. So then, the world stopped as we know. And I thought, well, there's gonna be no more interviews with this job because the world has stopped. And then and in August of twenty twenty, I, got a call to say that they would love to continue the interview process. So I did another series of interviews. And then, and then they offered me the role as executive director of the organization. So I began to run the organ.

George Hesslin:

I I left Origin and left it in the capable hands of a great board of directors led by Karl Adams. And Mick Mulanphy took over as artistic director today. And then I began here at the Irish Center. So that's kinda how our transition happens.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What were these interviews like?

George Hesslin:

Well, good good question. Well, first of all, they were the get to know you process. But then then it was very much about your vision. You know, it was very much, you know, the Irish Center is located in Long Island City, which is officially the fastest growing ZIP code in America. I'm also on the board of the business district here. So I have a lot of statistics about Long Island City. But, you know, when they bought this building twenty years ago, Long Island City, as you know, not many people would travel here. It was full of warehouses and everything.

George Hesslin:

But it now has turned into one of the coolest neighborhoods in New York. So part big part of my conversation was the future of the center and the vision for the center. We have a we have 15 board members here, and we have an amazing, board chair, Sean Mackin. And the board here were very, very open to diversity, equity, inclusion. We love those words more than ever. And the board really allowed me to we had a very structured conversations around the the cultural aspect of the center. There's three there's three pillars to the Irish center, community, culture, and care. So often, like, our our space here is about 10,000 square feet.

George Hesslin:

So, 43 organizations use the center every year as their own. Everything from Irish networking groups to the union groups to, Alcoholics Anonymous have have space here. Lots of organizations use the facility. So, that's the community aspect. Then culturally, we built a very, very strong program culture here, and our director of culture here is Steven Long. So we do a 40 cultural events here a year. That's everything from film screenings, to book launches, to music nights, to theater, to comedy, to jazz, to dance. We do it all.

George Hesslin:

And then and then from a care perspective, which I I love, we have a very, robust senior program. So every day at the Irish Center, seven days a week, we do something with a senior program. And that all happens in the daytime. And then our cultural events happen at night time. And our senior program is run by my colleague, Niamh Griffin, who joined the team last year from Ireland directly. So the board were very, very passionate about the ecosystem of the center, number one, the future of the center, and also realizing that the backdrop and the community around the center has changed. Because, you know, we're very much close to Sunnyside and Woodside, which are very much strong we're strong Irish neighborhoods. And but this this neighborhood is very much changing, you know, and you have to reflect the needs of the community.

George Hesslin:

You know, we have a wonderful music event now called Crossroads concert series, which is a music series we set up last year. And that basically is, like, we had an event last week, Irish African music night. We have Irish Puerto Rican music night. We have upcoming Irish Arabian music night, Irish Brazilian music night. So we're doing a lot of cross pollination with our cultural programs and with you know, we did a wonderful project this year with an organization called India Home, where we did 15 events around the Indian community and Uncle Lahara's book, The Name's Sake. And, of course, the Irish are known for hospitality, and, you know, I I love running the center. I love I love kind of, but first of all, I love that there's nothing in Manhattan. I love that it's kind of out here in its own little community.

George Hesslin:

And I also love that still half of New York don't realize where Long Island City is. And when they come out here, they're like, wow. We did no idea that this great other city has developed around us. But, yeah. But when they bought the center, when the when the founders, father Colin Campbell and Patty Riley, you know, they bought this where the subway stop was literally outside the door. So it's like, it's bang. It's such a great location, you know. But I love the center for its its kind of ethos and beliefs and its mission.

George Hesslin:

Yeah. And it and it kind of has a lot a lot of aspects of the mission, which I'm loving.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And coming from the artistic background, obviously, you're doing so much more at the Irish Center. I I assume that that just put a lot more on your plate rather than just focusing on on directing or bringing a a theater festival together or artists. You're now talking about, as you say, an entire community. I I assume that there was some some growing pains as you kind of figured out these other other areas and other jobs that you had to incorporate?

George Hesslin:

Well, I can certainly say, you know, I have twenty years experience working at Origin before I took over the Irish Centre. And I don't think I could run an operation like this without that experience because there's there's a lot of elements. You know, the biggest element is you're responsible for a building, real estate property. You know, I had never run a building before. So, there's a huge amount to in running the building from from fire to insurance to fire extinguishers to everything. You know, you don't think about these things. So that was a learning curve for me. Listen, live to the operation side of it, where it was a big learning curve.

George Hesslin:

So I began running the Irish Centre in October 2020. And at the time, obviously, it was in the middle of the pandemic. But I'm so proud to say that the centre remained open through the whole pandemic. My colleagues, Stephen Ryan, and myself, we came to work every day. And we did a huge amount of work for our senior community. We did food deliveries. We we had a mobile library. We had we had lunches in parks to engage our senior community.

George Hesslin:

So we very much kept our senior program going through, to the pandemic. And then we have a magnificent front window here. So we started doing cultural events through the window. So, we did an amazing Halloween project through the window. At Christmas of twenty twenty, we did Santa Claus through the window. And I think we were the only Santa Claus in New York. And we had Santa behind the window, and we had speakers set up outside the window, and we had gifts at the door. And about 300 children turned up.

George Hesslin:

And then I'm proud to say that Macy's took the idea and ran with it two weeks later when they put Santa in the window class as well. But, but yeah. So the good thing about taking over the organization during pandemic was, you know, while we were open, we were in slow motion, Willie. You know? But it was the great opportunity just to learn the operation. It was a great opportunity to brainstorm with the team here. And, you know, we did a lot of restructuring of the programming. As COVID opened up, you know, we did jazz nights here. It allowed us to take risks when we're, you know, we were sometimes only allowed to 15 people into a building.

George Hesslin:

But we used that as kind of a way to to, to see if programming like, you know, we did some exceptional jazz nights here, comedy nights. But yeah, so taking over during COVID, we allowed me an opportunity to, to learn in and get my boots under the table in, and you know, it's taken me three years to understand the operation. I mean, that's why, you know, that's why when I look at the organisations and they hire an artistic director for four years, I'm like, you know, you're only really getting to know the operation after three years, in my opinion. You know, you're understanding the audience, you're understanding the patterns to the flow of the organisation. But but yeah. So I'm I'm very grateful for for the opportunity and the timing of when I when I got the job as well. You know?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And with all of the the business and more corporate stuff that you have to do, the more the day to day do you miss the the interaction with artists? Do you miss the the theater? Do you miss being in the room and directing?

George Hesslin:

Well, I've done many aspects of the theater world, but I think all my skill sets have come together doing this job. So I get great creativity. I get a great creative buzz out of us. You know? So, I'm sure I'm very annoying to the staff because I do believe when people come through the door, you have to give them an experience and everything matters from the box office to the curtains to to you know, I like the place looking good. You know what I mean? The people walk in and have an experience, you know? But I don't miss it because I feel I'm living a very creative life right now. And what I mean is I love providing a home. I love, you know, we had in Saint Patrick's Day, we had a six hour cultural cabaret called forty Shades of Green, and we had 62 artists on stage. So I'm around artists all the time.

George Hesslin:

And not only that, I'm providing them with a home. So I get a great buzz out of this. And I think I am ready to go back into a room directly. I have a few ideas for projects that I would love to direct and put put on ears. But, no, I I see this very much as, as a creative job as well. I get a great, I get great joy out of, you know, even working on graphics for upcoming events and working with the graphic designer and the team and the marketing team. We work with me, Beck Beckley at MediaBlitz. And, yeah, I just I'm feeling I'm firing in all creative cylinders at the moment, so I don't feel And I've always felt this, you know, even when I would run my origin, you know, for twenty years, and it never bothered me not to be in the rehearsal room.

George Hesslin:

I'd still got joy out of putting it all together, you know.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, thank you so much for joining us today, and remember, you can get early access to our full conversation by going to whyI'llnevermakeit.com and click subscribe. Well, that about does it for this episode. I'm your host, Patrick Oliver Jones, in charge of writing, editing, and producing this podcast. Background music is from John Bartman, and the theme song, that was created by me. Stay tuned for the next episode when I ask the final five questions,