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[0:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hey listeners! This month we have a theme! It wasn't totally intentional, but as soon as I zoomed out and realized it was happening, I got very excited. Both of the musicals we'll be discussing in the month of April are great examples of pastiche in musical theater. So what does that word mean? Here's a pretty good definition. It's an artistic work in a style that imitates that of another work, artist, or period. It's also one of the most effective tools we have in musical theater because we as an audience get so much information from the music, setting, mood. We can also learn a lot about character. Composers can give characters songs that reference music or artists we already know, and then boom, we know something about these characters simply based on the type of song they're singing.

The show we're discussing today is a terrific example of that. Now, here's the thing. Pastiche has almost become a negative thing for me in musical theater because at some point, the references being used started having less to do with setting, character, mood, and started having more to do with making an audience feel comfortable about watching a musical? Dare I say that type of pastiche reveals more about the relationship between the writer and the audience than the writer and the characters. In any case, I think it's time to reclaim pastiche, and I can think of no better way to start than with a contemporary musical that shows it still works. So please enjoy this conversation with the woman who played a rich and possibly insane gun-toting oil heiress named Jolene Oakes in the musical Dirty Rotten Scoundrels.

And how do we know that's who she was? Because the composer gave her a demented version of Oklahoma. Welcome everybody to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today we are discussing the musical Dirty Rotten Scoundrels with one of its original stars. She is back on Broadway this season in Water for Elephants. Her many other Broadway credits include sharing the stage with a different elephant, one named Horton, as one of the OG bird girls in Seussical, taking over the role of Carla in Nine, a musical we just covered on the podcast when Jane Krakowski left during the revival. I'm thrilled she found some time to chat with us during her crazy busy schedule right now. Everyone, please welcome Sara Gettelfinger. Sara, I'm so happy you're here. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[3:00] Sara Gettelfinger: I know it's, I mean, it's a Saturday, so it's a full day for you. I'm thrilled to be here, especially to talk about Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. It's one of the greatest times of my life.

[3:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: For real? Oh my gosh. Okay. I can't wait to hear. Before we dive into that, you're currently in Water for Elephants. Brand spanking new. I don't know a lot about it. Please tell me about it, because it looks beautifully theatrical. Directed by Jessica Stone, who did Kimberly Kimbo last season. What's going on over there?

[3:24] Sara Gettelfinger: So, it's adapted from the book that was originally written by brilliant Sarah Gruen, and it was also subsequently made into a movie. I think it really, and Sarah has even said this, you know, it's taken all of the truest elements of the original story, and even some of the focus points that were used in the film, it kind of created the best of both worlds. And especially with my character and some of the other secondary characters, such as like Camel and Walter, they've really fleshed them out and given us a much more multi-layered story. And it centers around Jacob, who is a young man, who kind of in an instant loses everything, his whole world is turned upside down, and finds himself landing on this train that is actually a circus train, and shows you what takes place when those worlds collide, because there's much more of a ripple effect in terms of his life, and meeting young Marlena, who's our, you know, Izzy McCalla, who's our young female lead, who's just beautiful, and her husband, which is the character of August, and how that sort of, you know, a little bit of a triangle there.

[5:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely, a triangle, but it also very much has a ripple effect through the rest of the players in the community. And your character's Barbara, right?

[5:07] Sara Gettelfinger: Yes.

[5:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And what's her little...

[5:09] Sara Gettelfinger: She's very much, she's been with this troupe for a long time. She's sort of graduated from being like the star showgirl, to sort of the, you know, mama bear of the tribe now. And she's, while she still performs somewhat, she's trying to train the next generation to come up. But I'm very much sort of like the protector, and trying to keep fires from happening, or should they happen, put them out. So, it's very much an old soul caretaker, you know, kind of position. It's lovely.

[5:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, how fun. And I mean, they're lucky to have somebody who has as much, you know, street cred as you. Because in many ways, like you are coming with all of the wisdom of all of your experiences. This show, like Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, like Seussical, is yet another feather in your cap, if you will, of like shows you've seen go from out of town, try out to Broadway. That's kind of a lucky thing to have, to see that fruition.

[6:11] Sara Gettelfinger: Yeah, I mean, without question. I mean, there's just, I mean, you know, anytime you get to perform and perform, you know, at this level with, you know, just for because, from all the elements in performing at this level, it is such a gift. But in my experience, there is nothing like getting to create something from the ground up. You know, it is a different journey. It is a lot of work. And it's, you know, not just with the actual weeks of out of town, but the, you know, back to the drawing board, try this, take this out. But that's also where, especially in my experience, I have been so fortunate to be with incredible, you know, an incredible creative team, to where you also, you know, they start to build stuff for you and tailor stuff for what you do and who you are. That's a different kind of gift in terms of like, making your mark or, you know, adding something to, you know, this sort of history of material in our art form. So, it's...

[7:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There's a piece of you in that show. I remember talking to Julia Murney about The Wild Party, and I was like, whoo, like, you sang nonstop in that show. It must have been exhausting. And she's like, it was built for my voice. It wasn't that bad.

[7:30] Sara Gettelfinger: Absolutely, absolutely.

[7:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, like I said, is one of those shows that you were with kind of from the get. You were with it when it debuted in San Diego. Shout out West Coast. So, tell me about what was going on in your life at that time.

[7:48] Sara Gettelfinger: Well... You had been, you had had some New York creds, right?

[7:50] Yes, I had finished Nine. And then I had done, you know, a couple of regional things since then. But the funny thing about Scoundrels was, you know, I heard about it. You know, I was obsessed with the movie. But when I auditioned, it was just a couple of months before it was starting. Because I remember my agent calling me. I was like, out in Arizona somewhere doing this corporate gig where like, you got to like, ride an elk during the day. It was amazing. But I remember being in like, this sort of wilderness, beautiful hotel. And Emily Sue, who's also a brilliant dancer, this fierce, fierce dancer, who happened to also play the piano. And we were doing this thing together. And I remember she was like, helping me trying to figure out Oklahoma.

But the funny thing was, when my agent called me about it, I was like, that's, that's cast. I was like, that's like, about to start. I was like, and they're like, she said, we know Joanna Gleason's doing it, and Sherry's doing it, but they still don't have a Jolene. And then I start asking, you know, around, and apparently they've been auditioning and auditioning and auditioning and auditioning. And I thought, this is strange, you know, but anyway, as you know, from the show, she's insane, you know, and like, but the thing that was so funny, is I got it. And I read it. And I, I started cracking up and not, obviously, because it was hysterically funny. But I grew up in, you know, like, Louisville, Kentucky, Southern Indiana.

[9:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This is what I was gonna ask, because there is an inherent understanding of this type.

[9:49] Sara Gettelfinger: All I will say, all I will say, and I say this with all the love in my heart. I not only know Jolene, I'm related to Jolene. Like, I was literally like, done. I mean, it was right. And also, it was one of the first times where I got to really do my showgirl, you know, kick my face, that kind of thing. But I got to be funny. I got to be funny. But the thing was, is that over the years, people have been so kind. And they're like, well, did you come up with this character? And I'm like, it was the easiest thing I've ever done. Because I was like, I literally, this person is in my family. But then the other thing that was hysterical is when I go to the audition, I'm sitting there, and I'm not even kidding you, there were like six other women in there, essentially all between like, 5'3 and 5'5 and blonde. And I'm like-

[10:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How tall are you, Miss Sara?

[10:54] Sara Gettelfinger: I'm 5'11 without my shoes on.

[10:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This is a towering woman of power, everyone.

[11:02] Sara Gettelfinger: So I go in, and I sit down, and I start laughing again, because also, can I cuss?

[11:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, absolutely. It's called Dirty Rotten Scoundrels.

[11:13] Sara Gettelfinger: Well, I do. As my favorite lyric in the show, I sit down, and I see all these other women, I'm like, there's no fucking way I'm gonna get this. I was like, why am I here? But it was one of those where I thought, you know, well, there's no way in hell I'm gonna get this. This is clearly one of those where, you know, I'm very versatile, but I cannot make myself short and blonde. That I cannot do. But I just thought, I love this material so much, and if nothing else, you know, they're not gonna hire me, but I know they're gonna remember me. And I went in, and Jack O'Brien gave me the sweetest compliment later. He goes, pretty much the reason why we knew you was like, you were fabulous, but our first reaction was alarm.

Absolutely, alarm. I love that. But then that was the greatest thing, because it's like, that's what she had to do, as much as she was, back then, the real housewives of fill in the blank, you know. Sure. She scared Lawrence, and rightfully so, you know. And when in the world do you ever get to sing in the brilliant David Yazbek, I like to blow those little fuckers' hands clean off. I mean, it's just like, I have my bejeweled and sparkle bag, and my gun is in it, you know. Unhinged, but like, so memorable, so lovable. We'll talk about it, but it's like, really one of the huge highlights of the first act for me in this show is Jolene. And on some level, I'm always over here being like, justice for Jolene, because like, everybody gets their comeuppance, or you know, like their piece of the pie in some way, except Jolene, who unfortunately just has to disappear. But I think the end of Jolene's story is that she's so happy to have escaped Ruprecht, she just moves the hell on. That I will not do.

[13:24] Oh, this is amazing.

[13:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, so Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, based on the film, you said you were obsessed with it. Michael Caine, Steve Martin, Glenn Headley, incredible. And then, now we get into kind of this cultural history, which I really want to go through with you, because by the time we get to the early 2000s, we start to see a real congealing, I guess, of what modern musical theatre on Broadway was going to be. You had shows that you could bring your kids to, Disney, I guess, maybe leading the pack there, and then adult musicals, specifically ones that I think producers felt straight men wouldn't hate taking their wives to. It wasn't all that dissimilar from the 1960s, when I think about it, where shows like How to Succeed and Promises Promises, and even strange little musicals like Subway's Our First Sleeping were getting these big Broadway productions.

So then, in the 2000s, we had things like The Producers, obviously, which Dirty Rotten Scoundrels gets, I think, unfairly compared to quite a bit. Catch Me If You Can, Spamalot, which was also the same season as you guys, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. As you look back on it, and now that you're back on Broadway, do you feel like that has shifted in terms of the kinds of offerings? Obviously, Spamalot's back on Broadway. But in a season that is just so full, like this one, what do you kind of see being the trend, if there is one?

[14:58] Sara Gettelfinger: Well, to me, I think you're exactly right, that it was, much as in our overall culture, what I think has been so necessary, and we've still got a lot more work to do, trying to create things that are relatable and accessible for, like you said, the average American guy, and very much in terms of Promises Promises, and some of those that you said, what would be considered middle-class white American stories. And I think that what we're really starting to see now, or I know people are really trying to provide, or giving more lenses to everyone. And I think also, what's really, I hope we continue to see happening, is that it's important for, you know, communities to be represented solely, and then also for us to have platforms where we see true stories being told together and overlapping.

Because the reality of that's how we have to move through the world, you know, we intersect whether we like it or not. And sometimes those stories about, you know, I mean, you can take even something like Hairspray, that even though it was set back then, you're getting a lens to very different experiences in that time. And what happens when they try to intersect, you know, and I really hope that we can just continue opening more doors for people to either recognize what is something that is true to them, but also learn a bit, a little bit about, you know, or hopefully a lot about other backgrounds and cultures or identities that they aren't familiar with.

[17:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love that. And I agree. And I got really hopeful last season, because I saw, you know, coming out of the pandemic, people really struggling, just kind of throwing things at Broadway and being like, is this what you want? You know, and unfortunately, with people not coming back to the theater as quickly as I think everyone hoped, that meant a lot of shows closed. But I think last season, the momentum continued in terms of finding a way to make what you're saying a reality, you know, where many viewpoints, many voices are heard in a way that many people can connect to. And then with a new season like this, where Water for Elephants is one of, I can't even remember how many new musicals are opening this season. It's insane. Yeah, it really is. But it's so, it's powerful in a way, because it shows how many voices are welcome to the stage.

[17:59] Sara Gettelfinger: Absolutely. That is where theater is magical for me.

[18:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Looking at some of those shows that I guess Dirty Rotten gets compared to, you know, with the producers and Spamalot, those are a little bit, they're lovingly spoofing the musical theater art form, right? The songs are meant to be like, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, we're doing a musical. And then Catch Me If You Can, in a way, is being packaged in this concept, this very presentational concept of the 1960s variety show. Dirty Rotten Scoundrels to me feels like the one musical in this bunch that is unapologetically being a musical. And yet still has a lot of pastiche, thanks to David Yazbeck.

[18:49] Sara Gettelfinger: That's what I was gonna say. To me, it's so funny, because I guess I haven't, believe it or not, I've not really heard that many comparisons to the producers, or maybe I have and they just went over my head, like the producers, or Catch Me, the comedy of Spamalot is so brilliant, but I feel like it's ours is different. But other than the convention of the con, you know, because that's obviously, to me, you look and even as far as like style and the type of audience that it's relatable to, it's Yazbeck. There is only one David Yazbeck. And he writes with this wit, and this edge, and this realness, and I know he wouldn't mind if I say this, like, just this extra dollop of I don't give a fuck. And that's what I just love it so much, you know what I mean?

And he doesn't, even when he is, you know, like, shocking, or even like a little base or things like that, it's because it's witty and true. Some of his stuff I have found to be so bold, but it's not because he's trying to be bold. He's one of the most authentic people, truly authentic people, and writers and artists that I've ever met. And I think that's why you see, especially I think that same audience that he gave accessibility to with the Full Monty and Dirty Rotten, there's sort of this, especially in Freddie, and even those guys at the Mill, the everyman, the everyman kind of, but then...

[20:49] Sara Gettelfinger: To have a voice.

[20:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, totally.

[20:51] Sara Gettelfinger: To have a voice in musical theater, absolutely. And, but then, you know, you also see things like Women on the Verge and, and the band's visit, and the thing is, they're just not your typical character that's gonna tell a story. He does not follow the lovely boy meets lovely girl, and that's how it goes, and they have a problem, but then it works out, and love saves the day. I mean, not that all musicals do that, but he really finds unconventional stories. Like, I mean, I can't wait to see Dead Outlaw. He's like, this person or human or community needs a story, and I think it's fantastic, you know.

[21:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He's such an interesting guy. I can't remember if we've done a deep dive on him, listeners, so forgive me if I'm repeating anything, but he started, I mean, not started out, but he famously was at the David Letterman show writing, and then left in order to fulfill his rock star dreams, and that wasn't panning out in the way that he had hoped, and he just so happened to have a good friend in Adam Gettle, who is, of course, from musical theater royalty, but also a wonderful writer himself, and they started talking about, you know, musicals, and specifically if he would be willing to collaborate on this new musical version of The Full Monty. There's this great quote that I have from Yazbek, where he says, I think musical theater doesn't demand enough of music, which is really interesting.

Broadway is able to take any genre and ruin it. It can round the edges off soul music. It can take punk, rock, jazz, Afro-Cuban, or anything, and put it through the grinder of Broadway until it's not interesting anymore, and so I think he really saw himself as, like, he can bring what he does to an art form, and be proud of it, and say that it's elevating what he believes could be or is a really powerful medium, so I love looking at Dirty Rotten Scoundrels through that lens, because when you listen to this score, and listen to these freaking witty lyrics, I am getting Cole Porter, I am getting Noel Coward, and then on top of it, these amazing bossa nova, French Riviera, 1960s sounds.

[23:26] Sara Gettelfinger: Big bands, big band jazz. Absolutely, and then also, like, your 1980s journey rock moment kind of thrown in there as well, like, it's this really special piece that, like you said, authentic, I think is so authentic to him, makes me thrilled whenever he comes out with a new musical.

[23:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. So, you get the show, you got this unhinged woman, and you got your sparkle little clutch with the guns, and you go to out of town. Now, was the show pretty much solid when you go to the Old Globe in San Diego, or what was going on? And I'm going to throw this in here right now, after Jolene leaves, what did you do the rest of the time?

[24:01] Sara Gettelfinger: Oh my gosh, I called it my 11 minutes of magic. It was, I mean, it was amazing, because, I mean, in some ways, I received so much recognition and feedback from that, and it was just that, it was that real lesson of, like, quality versus quantity, because in some ways, it was, like, the most me I had ever been, you know, because I got to sing, I got to do the fabulous dancing, but it's like, it was, like I said, it was the first time that I got to be funny, and, well, one of the things that's so sweet about Water for Elephants, and I don't know if you realize this, but I'm back in the Imperial Theater, like, I'm in, I didn't know that, that's the same one, yes, I'm in Norbert's dressing room, oh my gosh, and downstairs, there's, like, three close together in that, in that hallway below me, that is Grant, Izzy, and Paul, but when we were here, it was Joanna, Sherry, and me, we were right next to each other, three, all in this little hallway, and they, like, in addition to being the most extraordinary performers, obviously, it was, like, these three sisters, and we just had the best time, I mean, that whole company was really incredible, but the three of us together, most, most two show days, we would put a blanket on the floor, and have a picnic, and eat, and we, we used to just have conversations about everything, and we spent holidays together, we just, it was extraordinary, but at the time, I think when we went to San Diego, Sherry's son, Eli, was maybe eight or nine months old, so the other thing that was so great about that was, a lot of times, Eli would just come hang out in my room, you know, like, for act two, and he'd just crawl between our rooms when he was there, but, like, and Norbert's daughters were around, and, you know, like, a lot of times, it was just, I just listened to the show, or, like, you know, there were always kids there, so it's just like, you come hang out in my room, you know, it's just like, you're running a little preschool, out of your dressing room, it wasn't, it wasn't, like, you know, it wasn't, like, every other day kind of thing, but it was just so lovely, it was so lovely, and we just had such a wonderful bond.

[26:54] Sara Gettelfinger: It's very emotional, like in the best way to be back in this theatre. Some of our crew is still the same. You know, and to just come back in and have had so much changed and passed in my life, but at the same time, just this feeling of such instant comfort and homecoming. And it's just really extraordinary. That's so special. You know, and we did it. It was funny because my number actually went through several different incarnations. It was, I mean, I used to get lifted up and swung around. I mean, that was also one of the things that was so great of, I was right in the center of have it being what Jerry Mitchell is going to make a number with. So that was thrilling. But we went through several versions of my number in terms of like, you know, choreographically and stuff like that.

But I mean, as far as I remember, you know, everything goes through changes. And maybe this verse here or this key here, but like, there wasn't any sort of, you know, huge plot change or gutting or this song needs to go. You know, it was freaking John Lithgow, Norbert Leo Butz and Greg Jabara. Also equally, you know, just the dearest human beings, but so brilliant. There really wasn't much that they couldn't make work. So, I mean, I'm sure there were different versions of things, but like, I never remember because anytime you do something out of town, Seussical was very adventurous. But you know, you have, sometimes you'll have those moments of like, what are we going to do? What are they going to do? It's like, figuring out which lift we're going to do or not do is not the same as like, how's the play going to end? You know, like that kind of thing. It's like, that could happen too.

[29:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's amazing. You've really like said so many things that I think are so essential to the show. I mean, you guys had just such a perfect cast. And the chemistry is really given an opportunity to shine, I think, because of how much book there is in the show.

[29:17] Sara Gettelfinger: Yeah. There are so many great scenes on top of the score.

[29:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, and we had the brilliant Jeffrey Lane.

[29:23] Sara Gettelfinger: Jeffrey Lane. You know, who's also, you know, just especially like, with his like, television writing. I mean, he just knew how to do that lightning, you know, quick comedic time. It's just, it was just brilliant. And he and Yaz back together. When you're doing a musical, you know, book scenes have to economically do quite a bit in a very short amount of time. And I love, I love the structure. It's also kind of an unusual structure, because like the quote unquote, leading lady, you know, Sherri Renee Scott in this production, doesn't come on until an hour into the piece. So, it's really fascinating that way. I'd love to kind of go through one of the traditions of the show is to go through it, and to talk about the characters and the outline of the plot so that if people don't know the show they do, and if they have seen it, they can kind of relive it in their minds.

But the show begins with this guy, Lawrence, played by The Incredible. Can you tell me just a little bit about John Lithgow? Because one of the most versatile actors, and yet, I hear nothing but that he's the greatest mensch of a man to walk the boards. You know, like, I've never heard a thousand percent true.

[31:04] Sara Gettelfinger: He's one of those that like, first of all, anything you'd imagine him to be, he exceeds. And I've learned, I've been lucky to learn this about several greats that I've been able to cross paths with. Some of these people that just have this capacity to sort of inhabit any character, and John is very much one of those people. And it's because that's how he's built as a human. The levels and the layers of his heart and soul and generosity, how he treats everyone, totally professional, unbelievably strategic and disciplined, but at the same time, with an ease and a gentleness, because to make it more stressful or, you know, it's just, it's not going to serve anything. Not helpful. So often when we hear about successful people, we immediately equate that to like, well, what's your resume or what have you done?

But I, especially as I have aged, and John was one of the prime examples of that, what it can actually mean to be a successful human being is in terms of like how you move through the world, what you care about, what you take in, what you prioritize. And it just truly makes you a more multi-dimensional human being in terms of your heart and soul, not just in like your talent list. Yes. But inevitably, if you move through the world that way, you understand why it deepens you as an artist. And that is to a T, you know, you have to have like this head and heart openness and accessibility. And then that sort of feeds into everything you do. And that's just to a T. It's also one of the reasons why I feel like even though he's maybe not traditionally a singer, right?

It makes him a beautiful addition to musical theater because he understands that integration. The theater is so much about integrating the outside and the inside and figuring out how to express it in an authentic way. That's beautiful. What a guy. His character, Lawrence, for people who don't know who Noel Coward is, watch this show, listen to this show. Every single one of Lawrence's songs usually begins with like a da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And it's elegant and witty. And there's a lot of word play. I love that that was the reference for Lawrence. He's this con man who has a way with words and he feels like he's at the top of his game. He's constantly swindling women out of their fortunes.

And right at the top, he has two victims. The first victim is a woman by the name of Muriel, right? Played by the incredible Joanna Gleeson. I mean, is there ever a woman who has been more synonymous with line readings?

[34:05] Sara Gettelfinger: Oh my God. There's nothing like it. And just like dry wit. She just puts it out there, you laugh at it, and then you can't hear it any other way. I feel so sorry for anyone who has to do The Baker's Wife and Into the Woods and not just copy everything she did. Anyway, so Muriel, how would you describe her? She's obviously wealthy, but she's got a lot of variety. She's always traveling and she's desperate for love too.

[34:31] Sara Gettelfinger: Yes, but I think the thing that was so great about it, especially with Joanna in the role, is that I always felt like I would love to do Muriel someday. Oh, absolutely. It's this woman of a certain age, but she's still stunningly beautiful. Gorgeous. So I imagine there's sort of this thing of like, I'm sure that she could spend a lot of time with people much younger than her. Because that's what I always loved about Muriel, and especially with the song, What Was a Woman to Do? Because I think sometimes people think, oh, well, she's older and has all this money and alone. And I think that it's more interesting and what Joanna really brought to it is like, sometimes you can be with someone and be lonelier than you would ever be if you were actually by yourself.

So I think it was finding that person that challenged her mind. And I think that's why it's so sweet when we see she and Andre fall in love, because it's sort of like, he loves her in a different way and makes her laugh. And it's not about fortune or status or a boy toy or anything like that. It's chemistry.

[35:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, absolutely. And so yeah, who she ends up falling in love with is John Lithgow's, or Lawrence's, excuse me. Lawrence's bodyguard, I guess is that?

[35:48] Sara Gettelfinger: I think it's more of his footman, if you will. Or, you know, man servant is a little harsh, but it's, you know, butler, I think footman, you know, that kind of thing. And yeah, they have this like, crackling chemistry. Like, it would be very easy to be like, why are these two characters in so much of the show? But man, I get thrilled every time that they come back on. I love to see them together, especially with as much deception as there is throughout the piece. It's so great to come back to these two who are connecting in a very real way. But it's not boring at all. They're like, No, no, no, no.

[36:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. It's interesting that Lawrence hears, you know, through the grapevine, that there is this other con artist named The Jackal, who is having their way with all of the world. It's crazy, the kind of hauls that The Jackal's pulling in through their cons. And showing up in Lawrence's sphere is this guy named Freddy. And Lawrence immediately, or not immediately, but Lawrence kind of believes that this is probably The Jackal, right? Because he is very much another con, but a very different type of con. How would you describe the difference between Freddy and Lawrence?

[37:18] Sara Gettelfinger: To me, I always thought, I was like, Freddy is Yazbek. Because it's just that sort of balls out. I'm here to do it. And it's almost like...

[37:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Literally, freshly shaved testicles on Christmas Day.

[37:33] Sara Gettelfinger: Yeah. Lawrence's charm was sort of in his, you know, suave, mysterious, you know, elegant. And Freddy was kind of like that, you know, wild, I don't give a fuck party boy. He's like the rebel and the guy that you go with, because you know, you're going to get in trouble. But he's fun and fabulous and sexy and just... Still sexy, exactly.

[37:55] Sara Gettelfinger: Yeah. And it's just, and it's like that thing of like, I have no idea when was the last time you showered and yet it's so hot. And it's like, why do we do that? You know what I mean? Because it's just like, I'm just living, I'm just free. And I'm, you know, and there's something so intoxicating about that. And I think that was their juxtaposition.

[38:16] Sara Gettelfinger: I don't know what it is, but you see Norbert and he like, will like be sticking out his gut with like his shirt kind of open. And you're like, why is this still kind of sexy? Because there's nothing like confidence. There's nothing like confidence. And also, you know, I mean, Norbert is just, he's got that magic and he is so sexy because he's just got that, you know, that smile and that mischievous twinkle in his eye. And it's just that, you know, there's nothing like it. There's nothing like confidence. I really think that's what it is. And if you think about those marks in the show, there's no dollar amount that's going to give them a certain security. That's why they're always chasing it.

That's why they're always trying to, you know, keep up with the, I don't know, whatever the high class Joneses are, the Worthingtons or whatever, I don't know. I have no idea. But it's like, when you're always looking for things to make you feel the most fill in the blank, there's nothing like seeing someone that it's like, I ain't chasing nothing. Even if you don't know it, that's what you're after.

[39:31] Sara Gettelfinger: So Freddie comes in with this completely different attitude. And at first, he's treating Lawrence kind of like, can you be my mentor? I really want to learn from you. And Lawrence is like, haha. Oh, sweet boy. I don't really need you. Enter Jolene.

[39:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. Because Lawrence is like, let me show you. I'll do a quick one for you. And let me show you how it's done.

[39:52] Sara Gettelfinger: Yeah, exactly. So he finds this unhinged woman named Jolene Oakley. Is that her last name? Jolene Oaks. Oaks, that's right. Yes. But she does have a little Annie Oakley in her, if we're being honest. Oh, for sure. And how did Jolene get all of her money? It's got to be oil, right? Yes. Daddy's oil. She's an oil heiress. By the way, we're in the French Riviera. We're in like South France, right? Yes. Beaumont-sur-Mer.

[40:20] Sara Gettelfinger: So what does she do in there? Shopping. Literally shopping. Shopping.

[40:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love it. Some people go to the Grove and she's like, I make some France stuff.

[40:37] Sara Gettelfinger: I swear to God. Well, to be fair, she's specifically shopping in France because Cousin Arbutus' wedding is coming up and we got to get some special things.

[40:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So they hit it off and Lawrence thinks, okay, of course, I'm going to be able to get her monies. What he doesn't expect, though, is to be forced to wed her at gunpoint, basically. I mean, you know, and so he's not going to be able to get out of this like he thought he was going to. We need to talk about Oklahoma, question mark. I love that. It has to be a little ode to musical theater because, you know, of course, Rodgers and Hammerstein has an exclamation point, but here it's a question mark. You had this great song with like a full dancing chorus. One of my favorite parts of the show is you're like right next to Lawrence Lithgow and you're just doing like, bah-mah, bah-mah, bah-mah. It's like the most ridiculous thing, but I like it makes me so happy to just have this woman with a gun kicking her face.

[42:02] Sara Gettelfinger: Absolutely incredible. That means that these two con men need to come up with a way to get out of this crazy, sticky situation. More than anything, why that changes everything is suddenly Lawrence needs Freddie. Yeah, he can't do it by himself. Freddie doesn't need to get out of it, but Freddie sees an opportunity. What are you going to do? You know what I mean? And that's how Freddie is like, okay, but you owe me if I do this. That's right. Now he has leverage.

[42:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It is because of Freddie that he's able to get out of it. They create this character named Rue Brick. And the idea is that, well, if Jolene marries Lawrence, then she's also going to have to deal with this little brother who's just a gremlin of a human being. And it scares Jolene half to death and she runs as she should. So maybe that is the justice for Jolene. She got out of it. That kind of, like you said, that cements this pair as a duo because now Lawrence owes Freddie. But that also means they're kind of constantly in competition, trying to show the other one up. I think that's also where the seed gets planted that they might be stronger together, but also their ego will always lead.

[43:25] Sara Gettelfinger: So naturally, the next mark, Christine, becomes a wager. It's like, may the best man win. Who can get 50 grand out of this woman who's coming into town? Her name's Christine Colgate, which immediately makes us think that she's like the heiress of some minty fresh toothpaste family. She's known as the soap queen. So you're like, okay, she's definitely got this Johnson and Johnson money somewhere. And they have this wager, okay, who's going to be able to get her money fastest? They have very different ways of going about it.

[44:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Freddie, who's always, you know, boy, just big swings, big swings with this guy, decides that he's going to play a character who is paralyzed from the waist down. He's in a wheelchair. And the reason that he has lost the mobility of his legs is because he saw the woman he was in love with dancing with an entire dance team, you know, dancing, we say in quotations. And therefore, it was this psychosomatic reaction where now he no longer has use of his legs. And he needs money to hire the psychiatrist. He's the only psychiatrist that could help him. Now he's made up this psychiatrist with the thought of, okay, this is the perfect scheme. I'll get the money. There is no psychiatrist and I will be healed. Little does he know that Lawrence is onto him. And he shows up as the psychiatrist.

[45:15] Sara Gettelfinger: So now, once again, we have this competition of Lawrence, just like torturing Freddie to see if he can make him reveal the fact that he is not in fact paralyzed. I mean, it's stuff that physical comedy is meant to celebrate. It's great.

[45:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Let's talk about Christine Colgate, who is played by Shari Renee Scott, one of my faves. She has this great entrance into the show, of course, like we said, an hour into it. She's a really interesting character. She's very aloof, a little dumb, seems like the perfect prey. I mean, she comes in and she really does feel like a deer just waiting to be hunted.

[46:05] Sara Gettelfinger: Right. Yeah. It's what Shari does so brilliantly. I think she did it somewhat with Amaris as well. Because it wasn't just that it was built into the character of Christine. We have to, because I feel like what Shari did so brilliantly was, even though a lot of people, even if you saw the film or even once the show had been running for a while, you know that she's going to turn on them later, and yet you forget.

[46:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You do. And I think that what was so beautiful about the way Shari played it is, yes, she's this almost Jessica Rabbit, gorgeous, curvy, blonde, huge, beautiful blue eyes. But it wasn't so much that she was playing her being dumb or ditzy. There was this pure of heart innocence. And I think that's why later you see them get conflicted. Because she's really playing it as just this open, true soul that is actually anything but dumb.

[47:15] Sara Gettelfinger: Yes, the earnestness. So when that flips, it's really brilliant and surprising. And it's kind of the amazing female empowerment of the show is that you see Christine using what these men have taken for granted, you know, by swindling all of these women is like thinking that women are always prey and that maybe their strengths would never be able to compete with theirs. And that kind of arrogance, that kind of blindsidedness is what then leaves them vulnerable to fall in love with her in their own way. Each one becoming enamored. And I mean, she's got this music that really helps.

[48:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Nothing is too beautiful to be true is like a perfect jazz song from the 1930s or 40s.

[48:08] Sara Gettelfinger: It's nothing is too wonderful. Nothing is too wonderful. Thank you. I'm like, something didn't feel right coming out of my mouth. Heartbreakingly beautiful. I mean, if you really just look at the lyrics, I still have it. It gets me choked up. I still have a little pin in my office at home that just says nothing is too wonderful to be true. Because when you really think about that sentiment, there's a lot of hope in it. And it's a really beautiful song.

[48:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Beautiful. It's kind of a perfect tune. Yeah. And then the specificity of like comedic songs, like Here I Am, where she's talking about the skies are French, these fries are French, you know, and that really goes to, I think, the fun details that director Jack O'Brien and choreographer Jerry Mitchell are always really great at. Anyway, it's just a sophisticated, classy night of theater. What ends up happening in the show, in the second act, is that, I mean, twists and turns abound. They have pity on Christine.

[49:11] Sara Gettelfinger: And in doing so, she ends up swindling them. Right? Right. And we realize that the jackal, this person that we've been hearing about since the beginning of the show is actually her.

[49:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Her. Yes. It's such an amazing twist. And it's really fun to see play out. I recently watched a bootleg of the show. Nobody needs to hear that except me and you, Sarah. But it was so fun to see that that reveal got its own applause when she kind of sends this letter in from the orchestra pit says, you know, signed the jackal and then the audience just goes wild. They're like, ah, it's her. It's her. It's her.

[49:59] Sara Gettelfinger: That leaves them really thinking, oh my gosh, we got had. We totally got had. They have a great number about being dirty, rotten guys. And you think that that's the end. This is the thing that I always forget about the show. I think that their ending number is going to be like this producer's moment where they're like, well, now we're bonded for life and it's the end. But it's not. There's a little coded to the story in which the jackal comes back and shows her true colors.

[50:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Here comes Christine. She's not the doe-eyed innocent. She's actually kind of this like Jersey girl with like animal print and stuff. And she's introducing them to her next con. And I can't I'm trying to remember what it is. Do you remember what it is?

[50:43] Sara Gettelfinger: I don't remember off the top of my head. I just remember that red wig.

[50:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. So like she's introducing her con to Lawrence and and she just kind of sets him up and says, hey, this is my friend Sergio from Espana. And it's kind of all in Lawrence's lap to see if he's going to go with it. And sure enough, he starts speaking this horrible Spanish to try and continue their con. And we realize, okay, now it's not just a duo. It's a trio.

[51:15] Sara Gettelfinger: It's a trio. It's a trio. Right. And what a fantastic way to end the journey around scoundrels are all three of them together. It's such it's so fun. It's just absolute, absolutely fun.

[51:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sarah, thank you so much for doing this with me. What an absolute ball. Love going down memory lane with you today. I know you got to go. So let's wrap this up. As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast, you can always email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Don't forget to follow us on our social media accounts. We've got Instagram. We got X. We've got TikTok. We also have Patreon exclamation point where for only one dollar a month, one dollar a month, that's it. You can receive a bonus episode and support the show. We also have our T Public Store that has great designs and the profits we receive from that we donate to Broadway Cares, Equity Fights AIDS.

[52:16] Sara Gettelfinger: Miss Sarah Gettelfinger, please tell us how to follow you, follow the show and get tickets to come see you all there in New York.

[52:23] Sara Gettelfinger: Yes, I am on Instagram at Sarah Gettelfinger. You can go to Water for Elephants, the musical dot com. And then on Instagram, it is W4E Musical. I hope I'm saying this right. I've been recently forced into more social media and it's very fun, but I'm still getting used to it. I've been posting like accidental stories and like I was trying to put up a beautiful picture of someone in my cast the other day and I couldn't post it without Beyonce's Texas song going on it. And I'm like, it's a nice song. This has nothing to do with this photo. And I'm getting very upset.

[53:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think those are all the right handles. That's incredible. We'll have them all in the show notes.

[53:13] Sara Gettelfinger: Sarah Gettelfinger, thank you so much. What an absolute pleasure. Enjoy your time back at the Imperial and thank you for all of the wonderful musical theater you've given us so far. Thank you everybody for listening. And remember, nothing is too wonderful to be true.