This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: One of my favorite things is to look at casts from musicals from the 90s to like 2005 and you will see all of our favorites in supporting roles as they themselves climbed the ladder of success to the top.

[0:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I mean, Lindsay is a great example. You know, you look at the revival of Grease, you know, in the mid 2000s. There she is as Jan.

[0:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome everybody to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history.

[0:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today we are discussing the musical How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying. A listener request from David who is so kind and wrote in many moons ago because all three of his kids were prepping a local production of How to Succeed back in my motherland, the old UT.

[1:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, David, I hope it went well all those years ago. I hope the theater is still open. And once again, I'm so grateful you wrote in because if you hadn't, I would have requested this one. All right. I love this show here to cover it with me is a many times over award winning writer. I'm going to read a few quotes about him. You're ready.

[1:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Entertainment Weekly said, quote, The future of Broadway, a major new voice in musical theater, unquote. And the Huffington Post said he's, quote, shaking up musical theater with his dark, twisted and genius work. He could very well be musical theater's answer to an auteur filmmaker or a Gothic novelist, unquote. It's honestly true. Every single word of all of those. So then why on earth did I invite him to chat about a quintessential golden age musical comedy? That's the question here.

[1:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. Well, for a few reasons, including the fact that he and Tony Award winning actress Lindsay Mendez have a new book coming out called How to Succeed in Musical Theater Without Really Dying. I mean, come on, that's fantastic. Everyone, please welcome RSO himself, Ryan Scott Oliver.

[2:10] Ryan Scott Oliver: Hey, Jeff. I'm glad to be back. I'm glad to be back.

[2:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm so grateful you're back. We were lucky enough to have you as a guest over on Patreon a few years ago where when we did a listening party of 35 millimeter, which is for those who don't know, is a fascinating song cycle. But it's so much more than that. I hate saying it's just like a song cycle because it's really cool that you and you wrote it famously features Lindsay Mendez on Ballad of Sarah Berry, a song that by the way, was written by Lindsay Mendez.

[2:38] Ryan Scott Oliver: Ballad of Sarah Berry, a song that, by the way, after that episode came out, I heard from many people saying that it was a whole like an awakening for musical, like a generation of musical theater lovers. So kudos. Was that when you and Lindsay started working together? Or did you know each other before 35 millimeter?

[2:56] Ryan Scott Oliver: We had met in 2009. It was my first concert at Joe's Pub, incidentally, where I essentially sort of met my husband. No way. Murphy, whose photographs ended up being the inspiration for 35 millimeter. Exactly. And we had known each other for a couple of years. We had done a couple of readings on my shows and we just really, you know, jelled as friends, as artists, as collaborators.

[3:20] Ryan Scott Oliver: And, you know, as the best advice I give any artist, whether they're an actor or a writer, is, you know, make your own work. And if people aren't choosing you, choose yourself. And I took my own advice and I had this dream of having a vocal selections and a cast album, then a CD. I wanted a CD.

[3:40] Ryan Scott Oliver: Yes, come on, with liner notes, a dream.

[4:07] Ryan Scott Oliver: And that was also the beginning of Lindsay and I working together as educators. And that same year, 2012, was when our company Actor's Therapy was formed. And I guess you could say that was the beginning of the seedlings of this book. Really?

[4:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, totally. So when did you land on the title? And why is that?

[4:38] Ryan Scott Oliver: It didn't make me go, it has to be this title. It was on a list of ideas we had. And it sort of was the one that nobody hated. And I have come to decide that I think it is the best title we could have come up with. And I am happy about it.

[4:55] Ryan Scott Oliver: Sometimes when you're pleasing a committee, landing on the thing that nobody hated is the best option, first and foremost. And second of all, it has led to this conversation. So I'm very, very grateful. The thing that I think I'm most interested in asking you about is your relationship to like golden age musical comedy. Because I don't naturally think of you as maybe being someone who really enjoys it. Do you?

[5:23] Ryan Scott Oliver: I love it. I love classic musical theater. At Actor's Therapy, we refer to this genre, not as golden age, because golden age sort of suggests a period of years that it has passed.

[5:35] Ryan Scott Oliver: Right. And is Thoroughly Modern Millie looped into this? Shows that are written more recently, but are meant to evoke the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. Is New York, New York, right? Is that a golden age musical? So we refer to them all as classic. And that really encompasses vaudeville, Roaring 20s, it encompasses the golden age. And it encompasses like, old Broadway, the old Broadway sound, anything that's meant to sort of sound like old Broadway.

[6:06] Ryan Scott Oliver: You know, we're not talking about operetta, like Gentleman's Guide, and all the Gilbert and Sullivan's, etc. That precedes this genre for us. But this particular genre, I love. And as you probably know, and as you might suspect, if you didn't know, for your listeners, so many of the people that we talk to that are early career artists, hate this genre.

[6:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Interesting.

[6:57] Ryan Scott Oliver: Students who say or actors who say, Oh, because I'm curvy, I'll never be a leading lady. But I asked people, what does a leading lady look like? What does a leading man look like? And it stumps people because and it should because there is no one way to look like a leading man, a leading woman, Maria, Tracy Turnblad, Marion Pruitt, they are all leading ladies, right?

[7:21] Ryan Scott Oliver: So I love the classics, because I think it was a, it is the foundation on which our structure is built on, there would be no Sondheim, obviously, I know, Captain Obvious, there'd be no Sondheim, there'd be no Lin-Manuel Miranda, without how the classics defined this art form that we're in. And I could talk about this for hours, which is I'm glad we're here.

[7:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, no, you came to the right spot. So I completely agree with you. And one of the words that really stuck out to me is structure. Like, a building isn't going to stand with that with a shaky foundation. And while I think a lot of history may feel like it has a shaky foundation in terms of accessibility, rights, you know, all sorts of emotional and human type issues.

[8:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There are still structures that are incredibly important to keeping things from completely crumbling. And I think in I'm going to now use your, your terms, because I love it in classic musical theater, there are such beautiful structures to understand and embrace and enjoy. And I say enjoy, and I often liken it to my Sundays where I'm like, can we put on I Love Lucy and just have a play because there's something incredibly comforting.

[8:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: About that structure around me, how to succeed is one of those shows that is structurally just like, yeah, great for me. I last weekend, I was working up in Los Angeles, and I didn't get done until midnight. And I still had to drive all the way back down to San Diego.

[8:54] Ryan Scott Oliver: Oh, no. Oh, my goodness.

[9:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I completely agree. Completely agree.

[9:55] Ryan Scott Oliver: And that led me to discovering the rest of the score and that Bob Fosse had choreographed it originally. So naturally, I became a fan. When did you know the show and have you seen it?

[10:06] Ryan Scott Oliver: I have seen it. I've seen a college production, probably 20 some years ago, at USC. Oh, because I went to UCLA. And so I think I had a friend who had a friend who was in it.

[10:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I was going to say, scandalous, UCLA going to the USC.

[10:22] Ryan Scott Oliver: The Bruins vs. the Trojans. I don't remember very much about the show back then. In my work as an educator, we hear the songs all the time. Particularly, I would say we hear Happy to Keep His Dinner Warm a lot.

[10:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Really? Surprising.

[10:40] Ryan Scott Oliver: I know many of our faculty find it deeply misogynistic, but I think it's as the whole show is, it's satirical. And much like How Lovely to Be a Woman from Bye Bye Birdie, there is a joke sort of happening that the female actress can be in on, or we could relegate it to, you know, total misogyny.

[10:57] Ryan Scott Oliver: We hear Brotherhood of Man a little bit, and we hear the title song a little bit. We hear Paris Original a little bit. But the one that we hear more than anything that actually doesn't work as an audition song is I Believe in You.

[11:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I was going to guess that.

[11:17] Ryan Scott Oliver: I Believe in You is so tuneful. It's such a lush, lovely number, but it has so much space in it.

[11:24] Ryan Scott Oliver: And so the songs that have a lot of space, where you sing a little line and then the accompaniment continues on, and then you sing a little line and the accompaniment continues on, Valerie by Amy Winehouse is another great example of a great song that has too much quote unquote space in it, and so it doesn't make for a great audition song.

[11:42] Ryan Scott Oliver: So over the last several years, that's been my major interaction with the show.

[11:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're like, please don't sing I Believe in You. Don't use only 16 of your 32 bars on singing because the rest is accompaniment.

[11:56] Ryan Scott Oliver: Exactly.

[11:58] Ryan Scott Oliver: I did do some research on this, and I wanted to brush up on it just like you did, and it's interesting because you mentioned Bob Fosse choreographed it originally, and I actually think there's a story there that I think is really beautiful, especially in the light of Bob Fosse and his cred and the cutthroat business world that not only musical theater is, but also this show talks about, which is that a choreographer named, I think,

[12:27] Ryan Scott Oliver: Matthew Lambert? Hugh Lambert.

[12:29] Ryan Scott Oliver: Hugh Lambert.

[12:31] Ryan Scott Oliver: So far as I understand with having choreographed it because they saw at some industrial. They saw him do a dance routine to something and they were like, "We got it. That's our Hitler," exactly. And what's fascinating when you look at Fosse's career is that at this point, he had done almost exactly the same thing with The Pajama Game, yes, where they're like, "He's a new guy. He's kind of weird. We can't trust him to do the entire show, but maybe we'll bring him in and he'll create the biggest showstopper." Yeah, I mean, "Steamheat," right? That's what he did with Pajama Game. So then same thing, they're like, "This kid who does industrials, we'll trust him with the entire show," and then Fosse, he can come in and do a little something here and there.

Yeah, but then he basically wasn't up to the challenge. No, not at all. But because Fosse, in a turn of being a really good guy, doesn't want Hugh getting fired because how that will impact Hugh's career. And so Bob Fosse agrees to accept a musical staging credit even though he essentially choreographed the vast majority of the show. And that really warmed my heart because you simply never ever hear about something like that when the power of that decision is in the hands of the person who would benefit more. People ghostwrite musicals. Usually, it's not their say about how they are recognized. And so just hearing that Fosse did that was pretty touching.

[13:59] Lindsay Mendez: I'm so glad you brought that up because the show is filled with individuals like that. I think that a Burroughs could also fall into that category because he was always a show doctor and was brought in. And people asked him when he was alive, like, "Why don't you talk more about the shows that you fixed?" And why? And he said, "Well, can you imagine seeing a beautiful girl on the street and saying, 'Wow, she's lovely,' and then if I'm the plastic surgeon, I go like, 'Yeah, but you should have seen her nose before I got a hold of her?'" Like, yeah, it's like, and granted when you hear that's his quote, you're like, "Of course you did." But his point is well taken, which is that you don't get anything by tearing down the work of others that then you came in and assisted. Like, that's not how collaboration works. And it seems like this team collaborated pretty darn well if for no other reason than they all did Guys and Dolls together.

[14:55] Ryan Scott Oliver: Yeah, I mean, one of the all-time greats. Yes, one of my absolute favorites. Really? Oh my God, Guys and Dolls, I could talk about forever. I was in a production of Guys and Dolls in middle school, and then I went back and I directed it at the same middle school years and years and years ago. And then we hear songs from it all the time in class, and anytime there's been a production, you know, I'm crazy about it. I just think Guys and Dolls is one of the absolute most perfect musicals of all time.

[15:24] Lindsay Mendez: Yeah, it's a great take. It's also, go to the very beginning of the Tony Awards, and Guys and Dolls is right there. It's insane how old it is for how forever young it feels.

[15:39] Ryan Scott Oliver: Yeah, this musical, however, comes quite a few years later. It's based on a 1952 book by Shepard Meade called How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying, which is essentially a satirical manual, right, that is spoofing corporate America, which by the '50s, you know, post-war is really becoming the American way, right? You have the white picket fence, the husband goes to work from 9 to 5, comes home on the train to a dinner waiting for him. She's vacuuming pearls. Like, this is the quintessential '50s thing, and they're already spoofing it.

[16:14] Lindsay Mendez: Yeah, which is cool. So this book is a huge hit. Everybody loves it. It gets turned into a stage version by two writers, two playwrights, Willie Gilbert and Jack Weinstock, that essentially went unproduced for years and was eventually brought to the attention of famous producers, Fear and Martin, who had produced Guys and Dolls. And ding, ding, ding, there, you know, little musical theater flag raises, and they think this is gonna be a great idea, a great seed for a musical. So they go and they convince their old Guys and Dolls team to come and work on it. They have a Burroughs doing the book and directing it. They get Frank Loesser to come back to Broadway and do a score.

[16:59] Ryan Scott Oliver: Can we talk about Frank Loesser? So good. I mean, oh God, a genius. I mean, genius. What I love about him so much is not only can he do really tightly written standards, right? "I've Never Been in Love Before" and "Paris Original," and the list goes on of just like the tightly written, easy to sing, easy to absorb songs. But then you have things like "Fugue for Tin Horns" and "Oldest Established," which have almost an operetta-like feel, an operetta in the style of a Broadway musical.

[17:33] Lindsay Mendez: That's a great way of saying it.

[17:37] Ryan Scott Oliver: And it's so cool. It's so cool because he really was already pushing the form, right, in a similar way, but a very different way than Bernstein was doing, right? And I think there were only a few people really, you know, at that time that were pushing the musical theater form. You look at like Sondheim in '63. When did How to Succeed come out? Well, '60, '61.

[18:00] Lindsay Mendez: '61.

[18:05] Ryan Scott Oliver: So like even in '63, you know, Sondheim being the biggest pusher of the art form, right? In Forum, you don't have a lot of big swings. And you know, the score for Forum feels pretty like straight ahead comedy score, right down the middle. And like all the songs are 32-bar structures, and there's nothing super daring about what he was doing. Now granted for Sondheim, that was the start of his career, so like he probably didn't want to rock the boat. For Loesser, you know, you're getting somebody who still has the energy and the savvy to break the form and push the form forward and someone who is fearless because of their success and therefore power, which is really, really cool.

[18:43] Lindsay Mendez: Love it. I love this so much. It makes me so happy. After Guys and Dolls, Frank Loesser does mainly Hollywood, but he does come back to Broadway a couple times, number one for Most Happy Fella. Talk about pushing the form, right? And Most Happy Fella is a hit. I can't remember if Green Willow was before or after it, but another show that is gorgeous and has a beautiful score, but like wasn't a hit. How to Succeed is really his return to musical comedy, but like you said, he's still incorporating really interesting ideas.

[19:16] Ryan Scott Oliver: Yes, for sure. That maybe a lot of his contemporaries weren't or wouldn't have in the same situation. Yes, I believe in you, like you said, it's an unusual song, and you would never believe, well, first of all, you would never believe that the person singing that song is singing it to themselves, right? And number two, doing so in a men's bathroom. Yes, like come on, it's really, really great work. The show opens on Broadway and is a huge hit. I mean, truly, it wins all of the awards, including the Pulitzer Prize for Drama, which is an award that has only been awarded ten times. If you were a subscriber of Patreon, we went through all of those musicals last year.

[20:03] Lindsay Mendez: And I think one of the things in doing so back in 2025, one of the things that really stood out to me was that the musical winners of the Pulitzer Prize for Drama are shows that are so essentially tied to the time in which they're written.

[20:21] Ryan Scott Oliver: Yes, completely. And it's part of the award itself that it has to reflect some sort of, you know, American life at the moment. But you look back at Rent, like nobody's gonna be putting Rent in 2026. Nobody's going to be trying to bring South Pacific to another time period. And the same goes with How to Succeed too. To understand and appreciate How to Succeed is to understand and accept the 1960s for what it was because that is the time that is being reflected in the musical. That being said, I feel like simply discounting How to Succeed as a dated musical is a dangerous thing because I believe, and this is my hot take, that this musical is as American as Ragtime. Like it has so much important history that if we forget, we are doomed. And the cool thing about this show is that it helps us laugh at it at the same time.

[21:23] Lindsay Mendez: Absolutely. I mean, I think to your point, I was gonna say something similar. Not only are the Pulitzer Prize winners tied to the time that they are awarded and the show is written, but I also find that the shows that win it are bringing up to the fore something about contemporary culture that has not been explored before or that is overdue for exploration, right? When Rent is happening, you know, it's bringing to the fore the AIDS crisis, right? Which at that point is almost a decade old, right? But it's putting it on stage. You know, in How to Succeed in '60, '61, which is really a send-up of a culture that blossomed in the '50s, it's bringing something that is already, you know, older and it's saying no one has talked about this on a musical stage.

Let us do it right. And same thing with Strange Loop, right? Next to Normal with the health crisis, with the mental health crisis. We see that happening a lot in these successful Pulitzer Prize winners. And you know, as a writer, it is so difficult to bring contemporary culture onto stage without it feeling icky or without feeling sticky. So like as an example, too, if a musical came out today that was a satire of the Trump administration, I think we would all feel a little uncomfortable about it just because it's not funny to us right now. We're living it, and it's something that like we also don't have enough perspective on yet. But were this musical to be written in ten years from now, it might win a Pulitzer. So I think these shows also have crystal clear perspective.

[23:05] Ryan Scott Oliver: You know, that's a great way of saying it. The end of How to Succeed has "The Brotherhood of Man," which is such a beautiful and perfect conclusion to a piece about cutthroat business techniques and cutting other people down, etc. And even though "The Brotherhood of Man" is itself ironic and satirical, to end a show by saying we're all actually human beings in this together, no matter how satirical or ironic it's meant to be, it is the warm and fuzzy feeling you want and such a piece with. So it's genius.

[23:37] Lindsay Mendez: Yeah, it's the cloud nine feeling that you want to send people out of the theater, you know, yes, still floating. I love that you were talking about how kind of the, what would Trump the musical look like in, you know, 2026? It might look like an SNL skit, right, as opposed to like a fully crafted, fully realized theater. And I think that to your point, that's what perspective offers us is the ability to create art instead of maybe just, I don't know, a sketch. Not that I'm saying it's not art, but I hope you know what I mean.

[24:13] Ryan Scott Oliver: I do. Yeah. Let's go through the show a little bit because I would love your insights and thoughts. The show is very genius. One of the things I love most about it is that the character doesn't just read the book from beginning to end and then decide what to do. It almost seems like the character reads a section and does that and then reads the next section and does that and so on and so forth. It creates all of this tension. It creates suspense and then also allows opportunities for the character to be surprised and like, "Oh my gosh, well, if I had known that, then maybe I would have done, you know, X, Y, and Z differently." It begins though with this fellow by the name of, we call him Finch, J. Pierpont Finch, who is a...

[25:01] Ryan Scott Oliver: Yeah, and he is reading this book HOW TO SUCCEED IN BUSINESS. This book has a voiceover who's always narrating it to the theater, and I think always one of the great decisions is who is going to voice the book. It's been Walter Cronkite. It's been Anderson Cooper. It's been Miss Michelle Visage.

[25:22] Lindsay Mendez: Yes.

[25:24] Ryan Scott Oliver: So, all kinds of people have been the narrator and the first thing that Finch is told at the beginning of the musical is, you know, in order to scale the ladder of success in the business world in America, intelligence and experience are very important, but don't think that that is all that's going to get you there because there are plenty of people in power who haven't neither of those things. So, like, these are just golden jokes that are never going to sour for me. But what we then embark on is this journey from him going from window washer to the very, very top of this huge, huge company. Now, in order to pick the company, the book says you have to pick one that's big enough where everybody doesn't know what the other person is doing.

[26:11] Lindsay Mendez: Yeah, these little gems in the script kill me. Early on, he sees two co-workers interacting at the company, and one says, did you get my memo? And the other says, no, what was it about? And he says, it's about the fact that we're sending too many memos. And the other guy says, okay, I'll send out a memo. And the lead character's like, this is the one I should definitely get into. So, he meets with somebody and immediately gets a job after accidentally bumping into the president, the head honcho.

[26:46] Ryan Scott Oliver: He bumps into him. The guy who's quite blustery and rude says, hey, watch where you're going. So, then when he goes in for his interview with personnel to see if there's something for him, he casually says, well, you know, I was just chatting with the CEO. And he's like, really? You know him? He's like, well, you know, we bumped into each other and da-da-da-da. And so, like, all of these little, they're not lies, but they are opportunities. And I think that's probably how we would describe Finch more than anything, is he's opportunistic.

[27:19] Lindsay Mendez: Oh, yes, yes, yes. He's very, very clever. I also love the name Finch, like little bird, right? Sweet little bird, unassuming, and relatively tiny. You know, he's not a hawk, right?

[27:33] Ryan Scott Oliver: You're right, though. They've all been Polly Pockets to a certain degree. Daniel Radcliffe, Matthew Broderick, even original Robert Morris. They've all been these really, okay, okay, keep going, keep going.

[27:49] Lindsay Mendez: Well, I mean, well, to your point, actually, you know, so when, you know, when we think of classic musical theater, we think of the leading male person, male voice, as being, you know, baritone, baritenor, never too, too high, never too low. And he's usually like 25 to 35, right? Or at least he's meant to appear that way.

[28:07] Ryan Scott Oliver: And when we get, I'm going to call them Barnabies, because when you think about a Barnaby, you go, for every Barnaby, there's a Cornelius. So Cornelius is meant to look mid-20s. And so, therefore, Barnaby has to look younger than Cornelius, even if he's not. So I think, like, customers who bought Finch also will buy Barnaby, right? And Tommy Gelas in The Music Man.

[28:32] Lindsay Mendez: This is my bread and butter, my friend.

[28:35] Ryan Scott Oliver: Right. So you have, when I have young actors who are, you know, 18 to 25, and kind of are giving, you know, they're maybe aging out of Jack in Into the Woods. They're like, where do I live in the Golden Age? And then you have representatives like Darren Criss and Daniel Radcliffe and Matthew Broderick at this time. So it's a very rare leading role for a younger man with great material. So that's one of the reasons why I think the show, you know, is fantastic.

[29:04] Lindsay Mendez: I would also say that this role in particular has never been performed the same way twice.

[29:13] Ryan Scott Oliver: Right.

[29:14] Lindsay Mendez: The approach that Robert Morse had is very different than what Matthew Broderick did, and very different than what Radcliffe and Darren Criss did. And do you think one is more successful than the other?

[29:26] Ryan Scott Oliver: It's really about what the show wants to say. Because in Matthew Broderick, you know, Ferris Bueller himself, he trucks in mischief. You know, we always talk at Actor Therapy, we talk about, you know, your type, which we hate, which is a bad word. But where you fit into the story, your specificity really comes into four different qualities, your voice, your look, your authenticity, especially in recent conversations. And then finally, your energy, which a lot of actors want to sort of push off. They want to say, I'm an actor. My job is to imbue any energy I need to. But Jane Krakowski has a very specific energy. Patrick Page has a very specific energy. Leslie Odom Jr. has a very specific energy. And it's something that the characters they're cast in can either absorb and rely on, or they can actually fight against type when we see famous comedic actors taking a dramatic turn, or vice versa.

[30:24] Lindsay Mendez: Sure.

[30:25] Ryan Scott Oliver: So to your point, when Matthew Broderick takes the part, his energy is so mischievous that I feel like you immediately go, this person is teaming up with the book, or he only needed the ingredient, which was the book. But he was going to do something like this no matter what. Whereas Daniel Radcliffe, you know, Nick Jonas, Darren Criss, that particular revival, these guys come off as a bit more unassuming and that if the book had not happened, they may have been stuck in the mailroom following the company away for the rest of their lives. So it seems to suggest that the book is the culprit. So it really depends on what you're trying to say. Are people innately cutthroat, or do they need this added ingredient to sort of get them there?

[31:11] Lindsay Mendez: I love that. I totally see what you're saying and agree and would also add, there is nothing in the script that says, I grew up with a father who abandoned me, and I've always wanted to take care of it. There's no backstory to Finch that we get that somehow reveals the motivation for this. To your point, it is completely left up to the actor and director to decide why this person is doing that. But to me, it almost feels like this is just what we swim in in America, is this assumption that the way to succeed is to climb the corporate ladder, and what we learn by the end is that there is no end of that ladder, right? That's the addiction in capitalism. So I like the fact that we don't really know why Finch is doing this. We don't really know anything other than he thinks this is what he's supposed to do. And I think that's why it feels so American.

[32:15] Ryan Scott Oliver: There's also this other element in casting, and especially in recent conversations, when you say CEO of a company in 1960, chances are you either are going to think of Jon Hamm in Mad Men, or you're going to think of a blustery, bloated, receding hairline.

[32:34] Lindsay Mendez: Walrus of a person, right?

[32:35] Ryan Scott Oliver: Walrus of a person, absolutely. What's interesting in the Matthew Broderick version, you have Finch as very adorable Matthew Broderick, and his foil, but front, is Jeff Blumenkranz, who's a dear friend and very tall. I'm not sure what his hairline looked like at that point, but a very different physical type, right? Which almost seems to be like the show is making a statement, and I'll let the audience decide what the statement is. But then in this most recent revival, you have Daniel Radcliffe, also adorable, but Bud Frump is Chris Henke, right?

[33:08] Lindsay Mendez: Also adorable.

[33:10] Ryan Scott Oliver: So adorable. You're kind of going like, either of these guys could have switched roles, right? Daniel Radcliffe had not been Harry Potter. And so it actually speaks less about a corporate culture of appearances, and it really speaks to savvy brains and personality, which I think is a really... I think in 2011 or whenever that revival came out, it is making a clearer statement about the state of where we're at in a world where the young entrepreneurs of the last 10, 15 years have all been young, right? Conventionally attractive, met so many of them people. And you kind of can't remove the fact that is that part of what has gotten them ahead, when that may not have been what got someone ahead in 1960 or even in 1995.

[34:00] Lindsay Mendez: Great point. It then makes me think about 2026 where the tech giants are running the show so completely.

[34:09] Ryan Scott Oliver: That's right.

[34:10] Lindsay Mendez: How does that influence a piece like this, presenting it now? Anyway, love it, love it, love it.

[34:15] Ryan Scott Oliver: Okay, he gets a job in the mailroom, thanks to bumping into the CEO. He also meets a secretary by the name of Rosemary, who we love.

[34:27] Lindsay Mendez: Rosemary is immediately... I mean, I'm gonna say she is as ambitious as Finch is, because when she sees him, she's almost immediately envisioning their house together in White Plains or New Rochelle. And does she know him? No, not at all. She just sees his ambition and is like, aha, we're a match. And from then on out, she's just waiting for the moment to keep his dinner warm.

[34:57] Ryan Scott Oliver: Let's talk about this song, because I too think it's absolutely hilarious. The lyric, I can't wait for him to come home and for me to say, how was your day, dear? I'm pregnant. It's so funny.

[35:11] Lindsay Mendez: But I can also see why people think that it's a time capsule.

[35:16] Ryan Scott Oliver: Well, I think lyrics like, I will enjoy his understandable neglect, whatever, however. But again, it's speaking to a time when this was something to aspire to, that to be neglected by... because she's not saying he's a deadbeat. She's saying he's so ambitious and career motivated, right? That that is a desirable quality in a husband, and she'll be okay even being neglected. There is power there. And I think, here's what we can agree on probably, even the doubters. I think no one thinks that these writers were saying that women should be neglected, right? That I think that they're mocking that as a cultural thing. So, to each their own, I think the song has charm to it, if done right.

[36:07] Lindsay Mendez: If done correctly. And that is 100%. What I'm really taking away from here is how important it is for the director and the performer to be completely in sync in their vision and intention with this material. Zooming out even further, I think that there is a message of, is the goal of our lives to really come home so tired that we can't be there for the people we love?

[36:33] Ryan Scott Oliver: Right, right, right, right, right. Like, come on, that can't be the dream. It can't. I mean, certainly the show is not saying, you should climb and climb until you die. It's saying, this is an example of somebody who is so ambitious that he rises to the top and the last beat is, but he also could be president. And as we see with 2026, even the president wants more, wants to be more than the president, right?

[37:01] Lindsay Mendez: Which is...

[37:04] Ryan Scott Oliver: No, he also wants Greenland. I mean, yeah. From here on out, the book tells him that he can't stay in the mailroom, right? Don't get stuck in the mailroom. One of my favorite songs, The Company Way, it's absolutely...

[37:16] Lindsay Mendez: It's so funny.

[37:19] Ryan Scott Oliver: Perfection, where he meets somebody who's been there for 25 years and he's like, I do things the company way. And he's like, well, maybe I shouldn't. So, in the face of receiving this promotion...

[37:31] Ryan Scott Oliver: Mail Room.

[38:01] Lindsay Mendez: Miss Jones, who is the CEO's secretary, and once again plants a little bomb by saying, oh, you're not nearly as mean as I heard you were from Bud Frump. And she's like, who said that? And just like planting these little shady bombs to take down his adversary and keep climbing the ladder. Can we talk about Coffee Break real fast?

[38:22] Ryan Scott Oliver: Of course.

[38:23] Lindsay Mendez: I mean, one of my favorite numbers. If for no other reason than I don't drink coffee, and I think it's, I'm like, finally, y'all can see how crazy you are when you say, like, don't talk to me until I've had my coffee in the morning. Like, you guys, it's silly. That doesn't make any sense. As he holds up his cold brew. Can you please defend yourself?

[38:48] Ryan Scott Oliver: You know, here's my question for you.

[38:50] Lindsay Mendez: Yes, please.

[38:52] Ryan Scott Oliver: When you lay your head on your pillow, what are you dreaming about for the next day?

[39:00] Lindsay Mendez: Regular day.

[39:02] Ryan Scott Oliver: On a regular day?

[39:03] Lindsay Mendez: What are you excited about tomorrow?

[39:03] Ryan Scott Oliver: Oh, that's usually how I fall asleep is I'm usually like taking myself through like a fun project or something that I'm looking forward to doing. And then it tricks my body into falling asleep because my brain is like focused on something other than must fall asleep.

[39:19] Lindsay Mendez: That's amazing. I feel like I go to sleep dreaming of coffee. When I was a kid, I went to sleep dreaming of cereal. And I know a lot of people are like this. So I do love my coffee. I do. I do. I do.

[39:35] Ryan Scott Oliver: That's so sweet. Look, I will second the cereal. I'm probably still there with your childhood self. I'm excited for that. I always get excited for breakfast.

[39:45] Lindsay Mendez: Okay, what other songs should we chat about? There are so many great tunes.

[39:50] Ryan Scott Oliver: Paris Original is such a banger.

[39:52] Lindsay Mendez: Paris Original. You know, when I reviewed this, and I heard a secretary is not a toy, I was like, no, I was like, I'm not sure. But it's also like, you know, I saw an all-male production of A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum at Two River Theater. And so when we're talking about sexism, you know, I feel like it did not solve the problem of Forum. And so I don't know that this will. So I don't know, I think in contemporary retellings, I'll be curious to see what happens with this song. Because I think in 2011, this song was on its last legs in terms of viability.

[40:34] Ryan Scott Oliver: Yeah, for applause.

[40:36] Lindsay Mendez: For applause. Right. Exactly. Because everybody ought to have a made a secretary is not a toy. Different sentiments. But nonetheless, it is bringing up something quite awkward. And so, yes, it is. By the time I got to the end of it, I was like, I'm glad to be done with this one.

[40:52] Ryan Scott Oliver: Yeah. And I get that. I will also say the two things I love about Secretary Not a Toy is, number one, that the person who sings it is the greatest offender.

[41:01] Lindsay Mendez: Right.

[41:02] Ryan Scott Oliver: And it really goes to like, every accusation is a confession.

[41:06] Lindsay Mendez: Yes.

[41:07] Ryan Scott Oliver: Especially from men in power. And so the guy who is teaching, quote, unquote, everybody this lesson is ultimately the one who gets axed for trying to sleep with the secretary, who just so happens to be the mistress of the CEO. So number one, love that. Number two, something that has nothing to do with anything. It was originally in 3-4. A secretary is not a toy. And then Fosse asked for it to be changed to 4-4. Because so it could be a little bit more.

[41:41] Lindsay Mendez: It's funny. Is it true? I'm just looking at the song list. Jonathan Freeman played that part in The Revival, who is Jafar, right?

[41:47] Ryan Scott Oliver: Jafar. Yep, absolutely. It's Jafar.

[41:50] Lindsay Mendez: It's funny about 3-4. I'm working on a show right now, and I was just doing a score list, which is something I do at the beginning of the process where I write down things of songs I'm going to write. Then I'm like, do I have a sense of what the time signature is? Is it going to be 4-4? Is it going to be major? Is it going to be minor? Is it going to be a production number? Is it going to be a solo? Et cetera. And then at the end, or once I've done a draft, I'll then input all of what I did. And then, of course, there have to be new songs. Songs get cut. And so what I'll do is I'll be like, oh, wow, we haven't had a song in 6-8 for half of act one. I have to write a new song. Could it be in 6-8, right?

And I was just looking at a score that I'm writing now that I need to write some new material. And I was like, oh, all of my 3-4 songs got cut. All of the songs I had written in 3-4. There's basically nothing in this show anymore that is in 3-4. So immediately I'm like, oh, God, I need to embrace 3-4. So Bob Fosse, I totally get it. But every song that could be in 3-4, let it be in 3-4.

[42:48] Lindsay Mendez: But you know what's also interesting about that? And I think that this actually could speak to Fosse's point. I find triple meters, 3-4, 6-8, 9-8, 12-8, et cetera, 12-8 a little less so. They have a sort of, when we think of energy being masculine energy or feminine energy, whatever that means to you, fire versus water, whatever that means to you, that triple meter tends to have a more delicate, quote unquote, feminine or water energy, so to speak. So I will often find myself for queer characters or characters who are, this is also like thoughtful songs, tend to be in triple meter. I guess women think more than men. I think that that's probably true. Certainly think more useful thoughts than men think, for sure.

So it's interesting that a secretary's not a toy would have been in 3-4, given that it is about a woman, but sung by a man. It feels like they were trying to go in the, once again, in the satirical view of like, it's a ballet, but it is about sexism, right? And he's like, but then I have to have a bunch of older male actors able to do ballet. So maybe can we do 4-4?

[44:01] Ryan Scott Oliver: Oh my God. Just to kind of finish out some of the plot points, what ends up happening is Finch, through secretary mishaps and all of these little bombs that he's been planting, becomes head of advertising at the company. And there's this big sort of telethon that they decide to do at the Worldwide Wicket, which does anyone know what a wicket is? Is that kind of the point?

[44:25] Lindsay Mendez: Is that kind of the point?

[44:27] Ryan Scott Oliver: In croquet, like a wicket is like the horseshoe-

[44:30] Lindsay Mendez: Is that what they're talking about?

[44:32] Ryan Scott Oliver: I think so. You hit croquet balls through a wicket, I think. And also, isn't wicket the name of the Ewok in Return of the Jedi? I believe his name is Wicket, if my husband has educated me.

[44:47] Lindsay Mendez: Congratulations. Well, I think we may be talking about the former. If that's the case, hilarious that there's this enormous company dedicated to that. That feels also very mid-century. So the Worldwide Wicket Company is going to be hiding shares of the Wicket Company, kind of Willy Wonka style. And so now it's a whole advertising thing where they get the whole country to look for it. The secretary, Hedy LaRue, who we love, we love Miss Hedy LaRue, who's the boss's gal, they get her to host the telethon. And because she's not so bright, she lets it slip where they're all hidden, which just-

[45:29] Ryan Scott Oliver: Disaster ensues.

[45:30] Lindsay Mendez: And disaster ensues. The offices get basically destroyed because everybody finds out where they are and they come ripping, roaring through it. That leads the chairman of the board to come and fire Finch, fire whoever is in charge of this terrible disaster. And that's where Brotherhood of Man comes in, which is Finch basically saying, yes, I am at fault. Yes, this was a horrible thing, but can we really place blame because we're all in this together? And it is inspiring. And the chairman of the board at that point decides to resign and give his place to Finch himself. So not only does he rise to the top of the company, he then is chairman of the board by the end. He ends up with Rosemary, who loves him for his ambition, and unfortunately plants the idea that maybe he could become president. So many great characters.

[46:24] Ryan Scott Oliver: We didn't even talk about Smitty.

[46:26] Lindsay Mendez: Smitty, oh, Victoria Clark.

[46:28] Ryan Scott Oliver: Victoria Clark. That revival cast was stacked.

[46:33] Lindsay Mendez: I love, one of my favorite things is to look at cast from musicals from the 90s to like 2005. And you will see all of our favorites in supporting roles as they themselves climbed the ladder of success to the top.

[46:50] Ryan Scott Oliver: I mean, Lindsay, I mean, Lindsay is a great example. You look at the revival of Grease in the mid 2000s. There she is as a jam, right? And I always say that if you go to Grease and all you can do is talk about Doody and Jan, that there was a problem. But also like kudos to those two performers.

[47:10] Lindsay Mendez: That's absolutely right.

[47:11] Ryan Scott Oliver: Yeah. You did mention Paris Original and we didn't talk about it. It's such a great concept for the ladies, which is once again, capitalizing on materialism and capitalism that they've all been sold this manufactured dress as a true right off the Paris runways. And then they find out that they all have the same dress. It's pretty hilarious.

[47:35] Lindsay Mendez: Yes. I mean, it's such an attack on contemporary materialism, capitalism. And yet it's delightful. We can all laugh at ourselves because especially in the theater world, and I think for so many people who can certainly afford a ticket to see a show, there is a sense of like, I want more than my station. I want to rise above. I want to get the next part. I want the next thing, the next cool big thing. We are forced to turn inwards on who we are and laugh at ourselves. And I think that's what a good satire does. And it's such a delight. I love the show.

[48:15] Ryan Scott Oliver: Speaking of satire, when you have a musical that's trying to be wholly satirical, and musical theater is at its core an earnest art form. It's a difficult tone to maintain for an entire evening. I think this show does it well, but it also shows once again, the problems with satire because if you don't have a voice in the joke, then you're not represented.

[48:42] Lindsay Mendez: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

[48:45] Ryan Scott Oliver: So looking at modern productions of this show, is there a way to create space for those voices in it without changing the writing?

[48:58] Lindsay Mendez: Yeah. I think there has to be, first of all.

[49:01] Ryan Scott Oliver: There has to be, is the correct answer.

[49:04] Lindsay Mendez: I think that shows that are about a certain time continue to yield opportunities to talk about that time, but also to reflect that history repeats, to reflect how in contemporary society, the reverberations of that original story still impact us. So in the same way that we have to create new work and we have to create new material, I think the reason for revivals is not just to re-enjoy every single one of them, but it's also to say, where are we today? When Ragtime, this most recent revival, very little, if anything, I believe, has changed in the show. And the impact of that show in 2026 versus 1997, you feel it a thousand times more because the show is saying things have only gotten worse. It's almost a sporting event over there at Lincoln Center. It's crazy how the fury and heat coming off of it.

[50:02] Ryan Scott Oliver: And it's also interesting because, for example, with Ragtime, and we'll go back to How to Succeed in a moment, white saviorism, where in 1997, I don't think that response was given enough attention. I think it was relocated to a smaller voice. Whereas today, it's hard to walk out of Ragtime without going, like, this is what has just occurred. We've witnessed an entire show that ultimately leads with this. So back to How to Succeed. I think the show has to continue to speak towards corporate culture. Where we are today, especially with how businesses owned by people of color and by queer people, we always think of those as small businesses. And when a person of color...

[50:51] Lindsay Mendez: Hey! It's Tony winner, Lindsay Mendez!

[50:56] Ryan Scott Oliver: Oh my god, hi!

[50:59] Lindsay Mendez: We're in the middle of a very serious conversation about satire and musical comedy. Welcome.

[51:04] Ryan Scott Oliver: Oh boy, I came in just in time.

[51:07] Lindsay Mendez: Just in time. Ryan, please finish your thought.

[51:10] Ryan Scott Oliver: Yes, well, Lindsay is a woman of color and a business owner. It speaks exactly to my point. I think when you have a queer person or a person of color or a woman who has a position of power or climbs the ranks, we have these really distasteful conversations about DEI or what they did to get there. And I think that if there is a revival of How to Succeed, I think it really has to speak to merit and savvy. And I think there was recently a revival with the one Michelle Visage...

[51:41] Lindsay Mendez: The London one.

[51:43] Ryan Scott Oliver: Yeah, which centered a female as Finch. Now, do you know, was she referred to as a woman in the show or was she referred to as a man in the show?

[51:52] Lindsay Mendez: I don't think they changed pronouns, but that's...

[51:55] Ryan Scott Oliver: Fascinating.

[51:56] Lindsay Mendez: Yeah.

[51:57] Ryan Scott Oliver: So I think the show has to, any revival has to continue to speak to the time that it is in when it's revived and take whatever it was talking about when it started and say, where are we today? And that's what I would hope How to Succeed would do on a new revival.

[52:14] Lindsay Mendez: Yeah, I love that. I love that. I'm so glad you joined us, Lindsay, because here we are talking about this show that shares a joke with the name of your new book. And your book is filled with gorgeous advice and wisdom and instruction. But I think it also could be turned into a satirical musical as well, because the musical theater career and art form is a treacherous one, to say the least.

[52:42] Ryan Scott Oliver: Is lull, as the kids say.

[52:46] Lindsay Mendez: Exactly. Well done. Can you two talk about your journeys in it? Because you kind of bridge the gap between the classic musical theater and modern day. But I feel like you two have really carved your own paths in a really interesting way. There's a question in there somewhere, but what has your experience been here in contemporary musical theater?

[53:10] Lindsay Mendez: Yeah. I mean, speaking to someone who's made a lot of my career by doing revivals, however, taking a new look at them, I was thinking about this a lot. I mean, when I started, the business has changed so much since I was a kid. When I was looking at shows and people who were doing musical theater back when I was in high school, I didn't really see hardly anyone who looked like me. And I actually remember I grew up in Los Angeles and I had tried to do a little bit of union work or audition for television. And most of the time, I couldn't get seen for anything. Everything that I would get called in for would be only Hispanic. I couldn't because my last name was Mendez. There's no possible way I could have anything not associated with my ethnicity work in anything else except, I remember getting a lot of nurse auditions and maids and that was it.

[54:16] Ryan Scott Oliver: Yeah. Cesar Chavez or nothing.

[54:19] Lindsay Mendez: Yeah. Or West Side Story or nothing.

[54:20] Ryan Scott Oliver: Sure. Right.

[54:20] Lindsay Mendez: And that didn't really feel like me either. I'm not Puerto Rican. I didn't quite identify with that either. So I felt a little lost, but I knew that I loved this and I knew I had some talent. And I just felt like there's got to be space. I've got to find the room. And I think what I discovered pretty soon was that it was not great for me to try and conform and try and look like someone else or sound like someone else. It was a lot more beneficial when I went into audition rooms to do things I liked and be myself and say, rather than try and cast myself, say like, I want you to love me and have to have me in your show and find a place. You know what I mean? And those kind of doors have slowly opened in a really beautiful way.

And there's still a lot of work to do. But I do think that I've seen a ton of growth in this space. What I love about doing revivals is I feel like, as to your point with How to Succeed, we can really take a different look at all of these shows. And I mean, casting Josh Henry in Carousel was like, that was extraordinary. You know what I mean? To see that man do that role. And I don't know that that would have ever been thought of to be done when it was written. But it was gorgeous and, you know, super stirring. And I think, like it or not, it left people moved and thinking and—

[55:55] Ryan Scott Oliver: Activated.

[55:56] Lindsay Mendez: Growing, which is like all we want to do in the theater.

[55:59] Ryan Scott Oliver: Amen. That's wonderful.

[56:00] Lindsay Mendez: I do feel like it's come a long way. And yes, we still have a lot of work to do. But I'm excited about how the art form continues to grow and space continues to open.

[56:13] Ryan Scott Oliver: I have a question for you about just your career in general. Was Dogfight like the first big thing for you? I'm trying to remember. Was that like the—

[56:22] Lindsay Mendez: Was that the— Or was there something before that? Like Everyday Rapture?

[56:27] Lindsay Mendez: I'm the keeper.

[56:28] Ryan Scott Oliver: Oh, yeah. In Godspell. Of course. Ryan, please tell us about her career.

[56:34] Ryan Scott Oliver: Thank you, Ryan. Lindsay was a fan favorite. You know, everybody knew his name. Everybody knew Lindsay. Like, she was one of the very first people who had a Broadway career. She like, straddled this line of like YouTube fame with like her videos and people just wanted to gag at her vocal performances, but also had a Broadway credit and also was sort of at the start of a Broadway trajectory. And Godspell was, you know, a representation of that. I think Sarah Barry, 35mm, was a representation of that. But Dogfight was, I think, when she was put on the map as an actress. So I think, yeah, it was the first time I think everyone really had to sit down and pay attention.

[57:17] Lindsay Mendez: It just is so interesting. As you're talking about finding a place in the art form, Dogfight's like immediately comes to mind as being a singular type of role that we hadn't seen before from an actor who is basically calling for a place to be seen, you know, and accepted for who they are authentically. It feels like a perfect little kismet moment that set everything else into motion in many ways, at least from my point of view.

[57:49] Lindsay Mendez: Yeah, thank you.

[57:51] Ryan Scott Oliver: We're so lucky to have had so many performances from you. And then little did I know, you and Ryan have been working together doing Actors Therapy for, I don't know, how many years is it?

[58:03] Lindsay Mendez: Thirteen?

[58:04] Ryan Scott Oliver: Fourteen. This October, it'll be 14 years.

[58:09] Lindsay Mendez: Yeah.

[58:10] Ryan Scott Oliver: And there's no way you don't do that without some sort of joy and fulfillment, right?

[58:15] Lindsay Mendez: Yes, yes. I mean, we really do love it. And we only work if the actors we work with also work, right? And so we've been fortunate to see a lot of our performers, you know, move on to Broadway careers. You know, we're sort of like a dating app in the sense that if you stay on the dating app for the rest of your life, the dating app didn't do something right.

[58:37] Ryan Scott Oliver: That's great.

[58:37] Lindsay Mendez: Just to get you off the date. And our intention is to get you out of class, you know what I mean? Is to get you working. And we are so fortunate to have gotten to work with so, so many people.

[58:47] Ryan Scott Oliver: You're the class that's meant to be deleted, is what you're saying.

[58:50] Lindsay Mendez: Right. Exactly.

[58:51] Ryan Scott Oliver: Yeah. And I think, too, you know, I learned so much from them, too, just as an actor myself. It helps me stay in my own practice, to be with them in theirs, to have to dig into their material. It keeps me sharp and fresh with doing the same for myself. So that was something I didn't even anticipate that's been a nice gift. And I also just think that it's so rewarding when we get those emails that are like, I booked this, or, you know, I got that callback, or, you know, I felt great. I mean, it's just like, it's the best. And it's the reason we started the program was you need people to check in with. You need mentors in this town. It is such a difficult career. And I called on so many people.

I still do. I call on people all the time, you know, for advice, for help, just to unload, to say, what do you think of this song? How does this outfit look? You know, what do they mean when they say they want to see me again? But, you know, they gave me four sides and they said, only pick one. You know, it's like all these things that you can and you think like, this moment could change my life if I get it right. And it's such high stakes. And so, to get to be part of that for people and hold their hand and say, it's okay, you've got this and cheerlead. I'm so grateful I get to do it. And we've had a ball getting to be part of that many artists kind of journeys. I think mentorship is something that is so important and isn't talked about nearly enough and in many ways is disappearing.

[1:00:24] Lindsay Mendez: Like, I graduated from college thinking, okay, I got my education. Now I just need to do everything by myself, right? And the more that, you know, God bless higher education, the more that sometimes we create degrees or create sort of these benchmarks of, okay, now you're prepared. Now you don't need any more help. The less we set people up for success, you know? So, to have resources and to have a network and a community, I think is sometimes even more important than a skill set.

[1:00:49] Ryan Scott Oliver: Is that where the book kind of comes from, is to then allow as many people as possible to benefit from this work?

[1:01:02] Lindsay Mendez: I think so. I mean, I think, you know, from the beginning, we found ourselves in our first kind of year of teaching, the same themes kept coming up, you know, over and over again. So, Ryan, like slowly was like, I think I'm going to start, like, we'll start a little handbook that we'll give out on the first day or before the first day. We give it out like a week before. And the handbook just kept getting out of control. It was so big. And we were just like, huh, this handbook, I mean, who's reading the handbook five days before class?

[1:01:38] Ryan Scott Oliver: Yeah.

[1:01:38] Lindsay Mendez: And so then we were like, maybe this is something bigger, you know, and why keep it to just people who can take our class? You know, we have so much knowledge. We've gotten so much great feedback. We've had countless students running through this program. Like we can really give something to anyone who is thinking about pursuing this career, who wants to come to New York, who is like you and finishes their education and is like, NYC just got here this morning. What the hell do I do now? You know? And that was so exciting to us. We've always kind of wanted to like expand in some way besides just being in New York City and having our classes. And we were toying with like an online video or something like that. And then it was just like, we already have this. Let's just, you know, flush it out and it'll exist forever for anyone.

[1:02:32] Ryan Scott Oliver: needs that support. So, yeah. And there's a lot to sink your teeth into. It's like, what? Almost 500 pages, right? It's like, she's a big girl. Some pages. Yeah. I mean, one of the biggest things that this book speaks to, which is a personal philosophy for me and Lindsay, which is that we don't believe in like the it factor that like fate versus free will. That, that who has it and who is good enough to make it has already been decided. Right. And that there's nothing, some people just will never make it. Right. And I don't think that that's true on its face. I think that if you work hard enough, and I think How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying speaks to this. There are so many brilliantly talented, gorgeous, charming people who don't have the work ethic, who will never quote unquote make it.

And there are many, many people who for whatever reason feel deficient or feel inadequate in some, in one area or another, but have the work ethic and have the energy and the ambition to accomplish and to get their dreams. And those are the people who rise to the top. And that really speaks to a culture of if you put the time in, you will find some success. And we can guarantee that, you know, we've never seen a situation where someone put the time in. And for some people that time is two days in New York City and their first audition. And for other people, it's 20 years. Right. We see so many artists who find their hit in later age. Right. So you can't go like, oh, they didn't have the talent before, but they suddenly got the talent at 55.

Right. So we can't believe in that. And so I think this book really just is it is a how to manual in so many ways. It's a lot of it is what Lindsay came to the table with as an actor who climbed her way up. A lot of it came from me as a writer, but as a business person who had to learn the business very quickly. And then all of the other actors and directors and writers and music directors that we've gotten to work with, that our viewpoints and our perspective and our teachings were tempered by their response. And if someone would disagree with us, then we'd either go, we should take a look at what we believe or we should go. This is a equally useful perspective. And we're going to put both of those in the book. So we really are promising the reader that like they're getting a really honest, up to date and perspective on the industry and how to work your way through it.

[1:05:09] Lindsay Mendez: As I was going through what your publisher sent over for me to peruse that, you know, there are sections on your audition book, for example, and I can't help but like roll my eyes a little bit like, oh, boy, here we go. We're going to talk about headshots and audition books again. And yet, on top of everything else is this degree of authenticity, which you brought up a little bit earlier. And that to me to bring back in How to Succeed is the difference between a satirical how-to manual and one that is actually invested in your success as a human being is that the credit isn't going to be the happiness. And just like Jay Pierpont gets what he wants, but then still dreams about being president of the United States next and probably Elon Musk after that. Like the idea is you have to be comfortable and happy with yourself, right? In addition to any success that may be coming your way from others.

[1:06:08] Ryan Scott Oliver: And I think as well, you know, that ladder just keeps going. You know, and there will always be like stumbles down on your way up. And that's both the hardest part and the most gratifying part to me. It's like, I still have to strategize like with every step I take, you know, I'm still making hard decisions. I'm still doing harder and harder things that feel scary and exciting. And I think for a gambler or, you know, a type B, it's a thrilling life. And I think for a type A, like you got to really remember that this is the life that you're choosing, you know, so. And I think we really try and lay that all out in the book too. You know, it is nothing if not honest, because there are so many things I wish someone had told me when I was choosing this career.

I don't think I would have chosen a different career. I love what I do. And I feel very grateful that I've gotten to do so many things, but I would have set myself up in different ways than I did. Like I never thought about health insurance, you know? I never thought about—

[1:07:19] Lindsay Mendez: Why would we need to?

[1:07:21] Ryan Scott Oliver: I know. I never thought about like, would I want to have a family? And how could I sustain that and support it? You know, I just thought like, oh, if I book Broadway, then like, I'm set, you know? I never thought about the closing of anything or the unemployment or incorporating or not incorporating. I mean, all of these things. So anyway, so the book is really dedicated to younger us. Or it's for us just starting out and anyone just starting out.

[1:07:52] Lindsay Mendez: That's so beautiful. I mean, even going from—congratulations, by the way, on the cinematic release of Merrily. That's so cool. But like going from theater into film, like talk about two different ladders and two different strategies. You know what I mean?

[1:08:10] Ryan Scott Oliver: Completely different worlds.

[1:08:12] Lindsay Mendez: Yeah. I mean, I would say this book really, you know, tends to focus most on theater. But yeah, I mean, that's a whole other side of the industry. I wasn't thinking like, oh, I'd want to do anything except sing and dance my whole life on stage eight times a week. And then as things kept opening up there, it was like, oh, you can do a lot of things with your talent. You know, you can do television, you can do voiceover, you can teach, you can do public speaking, you can do concerts, you can do symphony work. Like you start to see all of these people doing way more than just being on stage. And you're like, oh, there's something to that. I see it. But again, I just feel like you have to think long term, even though this is such a short term business. You know what I mean? It's like peace and famine. But you have to also be a long term strategist and business person with what you're building.

[1:09:05] Ryan Scott Oliver: Lindsay, you have a really interesting kind of angle on this as well, because you're not just trying to get cast, but you're also trying to create the work that people will get cast in. And I love that you mentioned that that business kind of element has really informed the book. How does that relate to just like the everyday reader?

[1:09:25] Lindsay Mendez: Yeah, absolutely. You know, my mom is reading the book currently. And she was, you know, she was sort of saying that like, so much of the book is resonant without even being prompted. She was like, so much of the book is resonant for anyone who is looking for basic business skills, you know, the middle of the book beyond, as you said, the building the book and who are you and specificity and interpreting a song, you know, those fundamental things that so many people learn for better or worse to a lesser or greater degree in school. Once that's over, you know, there are we've boiled it down to sort of seven things that sort of represent what we call doing the damn thing. And I think everybody in any kind of commercial business is doing the damn thing, which is having a business plan, which is continuing to educate yourself, which is understanding websites and social media, making your own opportunities, networking, time management, and then for the biggest one, certainly, your financial life, financial health, and for artists, you know, creating what we call a hustle, which is, you know, creating your own job, essentially, that pays you well is stimulating and is flexible around your own schedule that every artist eventually needs to get because your show is going to close.

And rather than having to constantly go back to the restaurant or the bar or the coffee shop, once you have a gig, like for example, after therapy is our hustle, that when we're not otherwise engaged in our work, we have this as a job to continually come back to and we've seen so many other artists who have gotten into a hustle that has supported their life. So everybody, I think, can look at those seven areas regardless of what they do and really do a checkup and say, where am I at? And how well am I doing in each of these areas? And I think everyone discovers a weakness, right? My weakness was always networking. My weakness was also, I think, to some extent, websites. Do you know what I mean? And I think Lindsay was a brilliant networker. My weakness was finances.

[1:11:43] Lindsay Mendez: Drag me, drag me, Ryan. You didn't have to. I saw it in your eyes.

[1:11:49] Ryan Scott Oliver: I know. I know. But we learned from each other. And that's what matters.

[1:11:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's amazing. I'm so grateful to have this conversation with you. Thank you both for being with me today. I really appreciate the way that you're willing to not only share your careers, but also the things that you've learned as a human. We've got a great space for that. So, thank you for being here. As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on A Musical Theatre Podcast, you can always reach out to me, like our friend David, that was hilarious, at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Don't forget, we're on social media. So, follow us, share our content so that our episodes can reach as far and wide as they can. We would love for you to join us at Patreon exclamation point, where you can still hear the great episode about 35mm with our very own Ryan Scott Oliver.

Go to patreon.com amusicalpodcast.com and with only a couple dollars a month, you can become a subscriber. If you're looking to give back, we have great designs on our TeePublic store and the profits we receive from those we give to Broadway Cares, Equity Fights AIDS. More than anything, so grateful you're here in this great podcasting community. Hey, Ryan and Lindsay, I don't know who wants to take the lead, but tell us how we buy your book and when it comes out, all of that good stuff.

[1:12:59] Ryan Scott Oliver: On March 3rd, our book, How to Succeed in Musical Theatre Without Really Dying, comes out. You can buy it absolutely anywhere. It's available on Amazon. It's available on barnesandnoble.com. Ben Bella, who is our publisher, also will be selling it and have other methods for buying it.

[1:13:21] Lindsay Mendez: Oh, and it'll also be available on audiobook.

[1:13:23] Ryan Scott Oliver: And it'll be audiobook. Lindsay read almost the entire audiobook.

[1:13:26] Lindsay Mendez: Look at you, voiceover artiste. Thank you. I played the role of Jonathan Groff. I got to read the foreword, which is very exciting.

[1:13:33] Ryan Scott Oliver: Yeah, and if you love the book, which we know you will, give us a good review on Goodreads and tell the world what you learned.

[1:13:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm so sorry. Speaking of Groff, that video of you three doing the lie detector test with I get wet, I get moist. It keeps coming up on my phone and I watch it every time because it makes me laugh so hard.

[1:14:02] Lindsay Mendez: It is. It's a classic. It's a classic. It's a lull, for sure. I don't know. We had no idea that day and what we were creating, but—

[1:14:09] Ryan Scott Oliver: Iconique.

[1:14:10] Lindsay Mendez: It lives in your heart.

[1:14:14] Ryan Scott Oliver: It does. It lives in my heart and apparently my phone, my algorithms. Both of you, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. If you want to follow Ryan Scott Oliver and Lindsay Mendez, we will have all of the links to their websites, etc. in the show notes. More than anything, so grateful to be having these episodes and conversations about great shows like How to Succeed. Thank you for being here. Remember, the secretary's not a toy.

[1:14:41] Lindsay Mendez: That's right.

[1:14:42] Ryan Scott Oliver: All right.