This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Sophie-Rose Middleton: It's honestly unbelievable. And if anyone listening ever gets the opportunity to go to Germany or Europe, like, please go watch it. It's so enjoyable, just as a piece of theatre. Not even for the story, not for the song, just the theatre. And a celebration of what a theatre can be. It's incredible.

[0:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to A Musical Theatre Podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we are discussing the musical Starlight Express, which was a listener request from Heike. Is that how I'm going to guess you pronounce your name? I apologize if I'm totally messing that one up. Who wrote in and said, quote, "First and foremost, I wanted to thank you so much for gracing listeners all over with your podcast." Oh, gosh. I didn't know that I pasted that in there. Thank you. Thank you for that compliment. Let me get to the actual thing. If possible, she says, "I would like to request an episode of Starlight Express.

As a super fan of the show for four years, I feel it has been looked down upon, disregarded, and or misunderstood by many folks. However, this is not to say that I am against the opinions of others in regards to Starlight Express. With this, I am interested to know any thoughts that come to mind. If any, what sort of impact do you think Starlight has brought to folks on a worldwide scale?" End quote. Thank you for writing in. I love this kind of message because it reminds me of one of the missions of the podcast, which is to try to not judge the shows that people love. Like the impact is the impact. And what do my opinions have anything to do with it? So while I think there are a few things about Starlight Express that I find hilarious, and I hope that we'll be able to laugh about them today, it's also made people a lot more money than I have.

And it has been seen by so many more people than anything I've created. So truly, like, let's go. All right, here to chat with me about it is someone, honestly, and I'm not kidding here, whose bio immediately popped up online because of the Starlight Express fandom website. So thank you to the powers that be who created that thing. She was seen on the International Tour of Cats, that production of Six on Norwegian Cruise Lines that we talked about earlier this year. And of course, roller skated all over Germany as Pearl in Starlight Express, where the show is still running strong. Everyone, please welcome Sophie-Rose Middleton.

[2:50] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Hello!

[2:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That was quite the introduction.

[2:55] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Come on, right? So thank you for being here. You're joining us from jolly old England, right?

[3:01] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Yes, jolly old England.

[3:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Is that where you're born and raised? I need to know some stuff about you.

[3:07] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Yeah, so I was born in Hertfordshire, actually. And I now live in a place called Kent. And I'm currently doing this podcast from a place called Peterborough because I'm here visiting one of my friends. So I'm like, dancing around all over the place. But I've actually lived away for a very, very long time. So this is the first year in about maybe, I don't know, five years, I've actually had a home and stayed with, you know, in one place for longer than like three months. So I've been very, very blessed to travel so much. But it is really nice right now, at this time in my life to just be able to stay in one place and not live out of a suitcase just for a hot minute.

[3:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Tell me about, like you in musical theatre, were you a nerd growing up? Did you love it? Like, was this always going to be the thing?

[3:51] Sophie-Rose Middleton: It was never ever a question. When I was actually sort of able to think about it properly, like, what do I actually want to do with my life? It was never a question that it was ever going to be anything else but sort of theatre or performing, acting, dancing, whatever capacity that I wanted to show up in my life. But I was never truly like a theatre kid. My parents didn't really know the world. No one in my family has ever done it.

[4:19] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Oh, I'm so sorry, I'm getting a phone call from my agent.

[4:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Did I bug it?

[4:24] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Did I bug the jam? That's so funny. That's so stagy.

[4:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She's a professional.

[4:33] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Right, so yeah, when I was a kid, I went to like a regular, very basic dance school that was just sort of like a local one. I never competed. We just about did like a summer show. It was never anything that we took super seriously. But when I was about seven years old, I joined an actual drama school, not just a dance school. And I got cast as Annie in that little local production. And I didn't have a clue what that meant. I wasn't the child that was like, "Oh, my God, mom, I got cast as Annie." They just went and Sophie Rose is Annie. And I was like, cool. Great role. Lovely. That's the title. Cool. And then my parents came to watch the show. And I sang Tomorrow. And for a little girl, I had quite a hefty belt. Sure, it was just like a I had quite a big voice. But my parents were watching it. And then halfway through the song, my mom went, "Did you know she could sing?"

[5:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm sorry, but this sounds like the most English thing I've ever heard of in my entire life.

[5:42] Sophie-Rose Middleton: You know, they're like, "Huh, that's nice." Yeah, it was very much like that. So yeah, from sort of seven, eight years old, my parents were like, "Oh, she's got a little bit of talent in there. It's not just sort of a thing that we're sending her to." And I obviously loved it so much. And then as I sort of grew up a little bit, it definitely became very apparent that it was something that I was going to take a lot more seriously and ended up joining a school called Emile Dale School of Performing Arts. So EDSA. And it was a weekend school that actually ended up becoming my full time training school. So they were just a weekend school to start with. And they literally built it up from the ground up.

And then they became this full time drama school, which is now this unbelievable school with this incredible facility that's based in Letchworth. So it's an outside of London school. So it was a lot more affordable for us for me to go to. And it basically it was a 20 minute drive from my home, which was great. And then I learned to drive in that time as well from being 15. And then I got the time to actually be in a car because very often people that go to theatre school just go to London, so they never learn how to drive. So that was really nice. I did two years at that school and it was absolutely amazing training for me. There was only 30 people in the whole school because it was brand new.

So it was just 30 of us in one year. And that was the entire school. And we had so much intense like dance and fitness training that I think it really prepped my body for launching into the industry. And then I said, if I do another three years of training because by this time I was 17, just nearly 18, as I only want to go to a place called Arts Educational. And that was the triple threat school. That's like the school in my experience of knowing the industry, that's the school where you go to if you can sing, you can dance and you can act. And a lot of the other schools are sort of specialised in one area, which I didn't necessarily need or want. I wanted to really come out like a rounded performer to the best of my ability.

And every single teacher I've ever had in my life had said, "You're an outside girl, you're an outside girl." Like every teacher that came through the school, all my teachers that ran the school went to Arts said like they know the school back to front and know the people that are coming through the school and they saw that in me. So I think since I was like 14, it was just sort of in my head that that was the next part of my journey. And I went to go audition, and I got cut after the first round. And it was the most catastrophic experience of my life. Because I really, really thought and I don't think I was delusional in thinking, but I really thought I'd at least get, I'd get to the end of the day of the audition.

And I came out, and my mum had been waiting for me outside. And I burst into tears, I went, "I got cut." And she thought I was joking. Like, we were both just so like, it was so sure that that was going to be my path. And she went, "Oh, you're joking." I went, "No, I'm not joking." And it was so sad. I think I cried to sleep for like three nights in a row. It was, I was like, my whole world just shattered. Then at the end of the whole audition season, I got an email back from the school that said, "We think we overlooked you." And I was like, this is my time.

[8:56] Sophie-Rose Middleton: It was written in the stars, they came back and they said, "We think we overlooked you." I was like, "Oh, this is great." So then I went all the way back. And I re-auditioned. And they cut me first round again.

[9:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I don't mean to laugh at your trauma.

[9:12] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Also, I just want to say this is I think important for people to hear. Because I have so many young people that I work with who are trying to get into BFA programs, and it's this or nothing. And it's that or nothing. And like, there are so many paths. There are so many ways.

[9:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, so keep going. I wanted to hear how this ends.

[9:30] Sophie-Rose Middleton: I am so with you on that last point, by the way, I am the biggest believer in this. And this is my story that I always come back to when I'm struggling, because I just know everything happens for a reason and at the right time for you. So then the heartbreak happened all over again within the span of two months. So then the only option I had really, was to decide to go to a different school or go straight into the industry or try but I didn't get an agency showcase or anything like that at the end of my training of my first school. Now they do that with the diploma and the degree. But at the time, it wasn't an established course in that way. We just sort of had our end of year show, but it wasn't one that agencies or anything would come to.

So I was kind of just out on my own. I was 18 years old. And I was like, you know what, there's a one year course at London School of Musical Theatre. It will let me live in London for a year and do training for a year. And at the end of that year, it's like a fast track, you get your agency showcase and you can go off into the industry. That was the plan. So I move into London and on that day, we get an email saying, the school's had a flood and we're not going to be able to open for another two months.

[10:41] Sophie-Rose Middleton: So I moved my whole life into London. And then they go, just kidding.

[10:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So I was just sort of sat in my room in London like, what do I do now?

[10:56] Sophie-Rose Middleton: And the day after I moved into London, just so happened to be an open call for Disney Cruise Line. And it was on my vision board from years ago that whatever capacity I could ever audition for Disney, I will just go, whether that's a Disney Channel, Disney Paris, Disney Japan. I don't care what it was. I was like, if I get a chance to just go for a Disney audition, five-year-old Sophie Rose will be very happy with that and I'll just give it a go. And it just so happened to line up so perfectly that when they said, "You're not going to school tomorrow," I was like, well, then I'll go to a Disney Cruise Line open audition.

[11:30] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Lovely. So I went to this audition. I lined up from like nine o'clock in the morning and then I didn't get seen till like 4:30 in the evening. There were hundreds of people. People were flown in from everywhere. It was just such a good experience for me. It was my first sort of, I guess, like real proper professional out on my own audition. Anyway, got through all of those rounds and there were like six rounds in that day where they just kept cutting people down until there was like 10 of us in a room and there were boys and girls as well. And I just didn't process that that meant I was really close because I was just like, there were just so many people here. I must just be, you know, one of all the other days that they're auditioning.

[12:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And you were so happy to not be cut first round.

[12:15] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Preach! The trouble was healing from that day alone. Who cares at this point? Honestly. So then I got the form to fill out and if you've...

[12:23] Sophie-Rose Middleton: I've not done a Cruise Line audition before. Very often when you get to the final, they'll give you a piece of paper that asks for your availability and information about you that you fill out live in the room and then you give it back to them. And I just had no idea what was going on. I was just having a lovely old time at this dance call. And they gave me this form. I filled it out and it said, when's your availability? And I was like, well, I'm free right now. So I just put now. Immediately. Now. And they were like, great. Can you come to the singing call tomorrow? I was like, yeah, absolutely. Again, waited a long time. It was an open call again. So I waited the whole day. And then by the time it got to me, they went it went from like 32 bars to 16 bars to eight bars.

Oh, for Christ's sake. But my song was really fast. So I was like trying to get it all out quickly. This is a long story just because it's like my the whole arc of the story. You know it's your origin. My origin story. And then I just didn't hear anything for two months. On the day I start the school that had the flood, I come back home and I'm on the phone to my parents. I'm like, I had the best day. We had a workshop with someone from Les Mis. And I saw this teacher that I knew. And Disney email pops up. And I thought it was like an advertisement for like a holiday for like Disney Cruise. But no, it was a job offer. And like we all lost it. But I didn't have a clue what to do because I just started this like school, paid my fees and moved my whole life to London.

It was just so randomly, amazingly perfect. Perfect, yeah. That I then went back into the school and I spoke to the head teacher and he was like, honestly, I think you still need to train. I was like, I'm not fighting you on that. I completely agree. That's why I'm here. But I also have an opportunity to go do the thing whilst learning, whilst training, whilst earning money and traveling. He said, you have a week to decide. If you decide to leave, we'll need you to leave the school. I was like, okay, because I still had a bit of time. I hoped I could stay at the school, but it's okay. I understand I didn't want people investing time and energy into me if I wasn't going to stay long term. And I wanted to train.

I wish I could be in full time training now. I'm that really sort of dorky person that really loves training. And I want to be learning and I want to be in the room creating. And school is the most amazing environment for that. So I stayed for a couple more days to decide. And by the end of the week, he came up to me and went, you know what, I think you need to go. And I was like, it just like lifted the entire weight of me having to make this like really scary decision, which I did. It ultimately was my decision. But he gave it to me from a place of like, I've watched you and I know you need to go now. I know, I know that's what you... And he said, and you know what, the place will be here for you if you want to come back.

You won't, but the place will be here for you if you want to come back. And I was like, no, I'll come back and then I'll be able to pay the fees and not be in debt. And that's great. And I fully had the intention of going to do this job and then coming back to train. I did not. But I really appreciate that he said that I could. He knew. And I know I would have loved being in that year, but oh my word, did I have an incredible time on that job. And it was absolutely the right choice for me. And it is my go to story in my brain, in my soul, what I tell people when I'm like, it just wasn't the right timing for you. It wasn't meant to be at that time, but it might be at some point. I wasn't meant to go to ArtSaid.

I wasn't meant to go to LSMT. I wasn't meant to go on that journey. What was meant for me found its way to me. And that's the journey I took into the industry. And then from that job, I was able to, from, you know, my cabin, create showreels and send that off to agencies where I signed with my first agent. Yeah. So that's sort of how I sort of found my way into the industry, which isn't really a stereotypical story. I think it's so important to hear the diversity of stories of number one, how you make a living in the industry. It's not just Broadway, folks. You know, theater is a worldwide, beautiful source of employment, of community, of art. And there is no one way into it. So I'm so grateful that you shared that.

It really does, in many ways, tie into what Starlight Express is, because when it debuted on Broadway, it didn't get great reviews. It wasn't the huge smash. It wasn't the longest running Andrew Lloyd Webber show. But that didn't necessarily stop it in terms of its impact and its popularity. Before we dive really specifically into the show, I remember seeing on social media that like you had never roller skated before going into Starlight Express. Like it wasn't one of your special skills that you just thought was going to be on your bingo card. So so real fast, how did Starlight become part of your life? It was actually randomly my first audition off of Disney. Oh, really? Yeah. When I was like 19.

So I and I go right to the finals for it on hold on hold for it. I can for two months. And then the role ended up not the person that I was in for ended up not leaving the show. So the role was no longer available. But again, everything happens for a reason. This is my story. Then I didn't audition again for about six years. And then after I came off of Cats, it was my first audition back. And it was just one of those auditions where I was like, oh, my God. I normally I'm looking at another girl in the audition going, oh, she's getting it. She's the girl. They see them looking at her or she gets the extra call in or she's in the room for a long time. This time that was me. I was like, oh, my God, I'm the girl.

This is so fun. And the team was so amazing. And Arlene Phillips is so passionate about this show. And how was so amazing? OK, we were I can't wait to talk about this because so with Miss Arlene, the legend herself. OK, cool. And then literally within like three days of auditioning by the weekend, I had a straight up offer for Pearl. And that was literally based on singing and dancing and acting. There is absolutely no skate training or reviewing. They do for the London show, but they don't for Germany because they know their program just works. They can get that many people skating. Not everyone can. Some people do. You're on a probation period when you get there. Yeah. So people do their job.

Yeah. If you if you just don't get on your skates, then they're like, I'm so sorry. You're just going to you're going to have to go because you kind of need to be able to do that. But they, you know, they reviewed a lot of dancers are very capable of learning skills like that, just based on, you know, dance training in general. I guess, you know, they've been they've been doing this for 36 years, 37 years now, and they just know that this program works. And it's an insane training program. And I came into it. I could roll forward and I could maybe do a little like scissor of like my feet. That's probably about it. And so we were taught literally from the basics, like first day, put your boots on and you stand up and then you go from the complete basics.

So, yeah, it's a really insane program. Very, very hard every single day, about six hours a day. And then you're in six days a week as well. So you only get one day off and you're training all the way through. Wow. That's incredible. But like you said, they've had 37 years of practice to just like, OK. Oh, so interesting. All right. So let's go back in time a little bit and talk about if you don't mind, Andrew Lloyd Webber in general. You mentioned Cats, so you're well acquainted. Yes, I am an Andrew Lloyd Webber fan, and I can't pretend that I'm not because he was so essential to me and my family experiencing professional theater. Going and seeing Phantom of the Opera was the peak of culture.

So I'm super grateful. Now, that being said, let's look at what was happening before the 80s for Andrew Lloyd Webber. We had Jesus Christ Superstar, which was a phenomenon all by itself. Then, at least on Broadway, then it's Evita, which I'm a fan of and I think is really kind of unique and layered, and especially when it comes to musicals dealing with politics. Then we hit the 80s and we just have kind of high concept show after show. Joseph, which you've got Jews singing country Western songs. Then you go to then you have Cats, which is just about Cats. That's really all it is. But it's theatrical and exciting, to say the least. Cats is much more fun to be in than it is to watch. Which is the tagline, isn't it?

It's so true. It's so fun to be in. And I know that that might sound weird to people, but it is really a fun show to be in. Then Song and Dance, which wasn't well received. But everybody loved Bernadette Peters. Then Starlight Express, where everybody's on roller skates. Now, you can see if you are a huge musical theater fan in the 1980s and you're seeing things like Dreamgirls and you're seeing things like La Cage aux Folles, you're like, what on earth are the Brits doing? Yeah, this is these shows are absolutely bananas. We got Cats. We got roller skates. We got you know what I mean? And so that is truly, I think, where all of the judgment for him comes from is from this decade where it's just kind of high concept show after high concept show.

Now, that is very different than I think how Europe feels about Andrew Lloyd Webber. True. I think it is a little bit like we call it a little bit like Marmite. So people either really love it or they really hate it. And I think a lot of them, a lot of the concepts are so bizarre that if you're not a little bit theatrical yourself, a little bit spicy, that it doesn't really make a lot of sense. And I know that me, I mean, I watched the VHS of Cats and it was, which is, by the way, a memory of my childhood preach. And Andrew Lloyd Webber knows it himself. And he says it in every single interview as he hates that production. But he hates it so much. If you want to look at it, it's so funny watching him interview about it.

He's like, oh, it's awful. Just totally trashing it. Yeah, it's so funny. But yes, that production, it was just so iconic and created such an amazing fan base that also from any age group, because for kids, it's like, oh, wow, cats. And then for adults, it's tapping into their whimsical and tapping into their childhood or whatever. And now those kids have grown up and they've grown up through the periods of the Starlight Express and the cats. And now it's really nostalgic for them. Also, to say, you know, something like Starlight, it's a whole show on roller skates. So I think that is a little bit different to Cats with regards to being like, yeah, it's a show about Cats, yeah, it's a show about trains.

I think there's an element of the spectacle of the show with regards to it being on skates anyway, and the respect for the show that comes from people watching because it's on skates. This is a this is a great point. And I think it in many ways even leaves Andrew Weber out of the conversation. So now I have to reverse a little bit. I'm so grateful for this podcast because it has connected me with so many people all over the world that I wouldn't have otherwise. And one of my friends who I now have who lives in Germany. Shout out, Mark. One of the first conversations we had was about like Dance of the Vampires shows that were huge, huge hits in Europe and then just totally flopped in America.

And truly from a place of curiosity, I'm like, what is going on? What is so different about audiences in Europe that it doesn't connect when it crosses over to the United States? And it's a nuanced conversation. So, of course, I'm like boiling it down to to stereotypes. But one of the key things that he talked to me about is like, you need to realize that the theaters like the big theaters in Europe are huge. We're not talking about the Schubert on Broadway.

[24:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: These are big houses meant for spectacle-type shows, and that is why, especially, I think, in Eastern Europe, people go to the theatre is for a degree of spectacle. And when I heard that, and I took a step back, I'm like, oh, in so many ways, this feels connected to the operatic roots of theatre in Europe that I think are probably still much stronger than they are in the United States. So in opera, kind of like what you said about roller skating, and I'm not saying that roller skating is the same as singing opera, but there is a certain degree of the Olympics of performing. When you're doing opera, you're doing things that are humanly unnatural. It is unnatural to be able to sing like that without a microphone.

And yet they're doing it. And so story almost takes a backseat a little bit, not saying that it's not important, but it takes a little bit of a backseat to the spectacle element of hearing somebody sing like that or to see somebody do it all on roller skates. And I can't help but feel like that is tied into what makes these shows so popular over there, as opposed to over here, where because of folk music and because of minstrelsy and vaudeville, all of the kind of influences that are maybe a little more singular to the United States, for better or worse, are very story-driven. It's story, story, story, always, always, always. How does that sit with you? Does that make any sense?

[26:26] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Yeah, I completely agree. I also think there's an element of people in Europe or the UK, it feels a bit more special to go to theatre. And it's something like as big as Starlight Express comes up in a huge theatre, in these massive experiences. I think, I don't know if there is more of a, the reason I say this, I taught a school from Portugal the other day, and their appreciation for this class, I did a CATS workshop, they were hanging on every single word and every single thing because it was just less accessible to them. They don't have a West End, and they don't have a Broadway, so they have to travel quite far to get to that place to see it. And I don't know if that's also an element of it as well.

But I don't know though, because usually it's the other way around in terms of appreciation of the arts, that if you don't invest in accessibility, that it doesn't exist. So there has to be something at the core, where there's an appreciation, like you're saying, there's an appreciation that makes it feel special. And so if everybody agrees that this is the thing to do, then it's almost disrespectful to not go see Starlight Express.

[27:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Preach.

[27:46] Sophie-Rose Middleton: But that's all to say that Starlight Express to this day, like you mentioned, is still going strong in Germany. And I mean, I don't think it's going to be closing anytime soon.

[27:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, I think they've just extended another 10-year license in Germany. I know in London, it's stopping, but I think it might be going on an international tour.

[28:07] Sophie-Rose Middleton: So cool. Okay, so—

[28:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's a whole new production as well. That's a different version of the show.

[28:12] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Oh my gosh, there are so many versions of the show. The very, very first version of Starlight Express that wasn't Starlight Express. How many times can I say Starlight Express? It was actually a children's TV program that Andrew Lloyd Webber was hoping to bring his talents to. So basically, if you know Thomas the Train, you know, very famous fella, Andrew Lloyd Webber wanted to turn the story of these trains with feelings and emotions into a children's musical series. And they wrote the pilot, and the pilot didn't get picked up. And so that kind of laid dormant. However, his love of trains and all of that did spark something so that this train project kept coming back as a possibility. Then post-Cats, when they actually go to write Starlight Express, to me, it feels like a combination of Joseph in that there's a lot of pastiche.

There's the country song, there's the rock and roll song, there's a rap, which we will definitely talk about. And then this like, heavyside layer type element, mystical, that is kind of making the whole story make sense.

[29:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We often said that Starlight is just cats on wheels. It's like, Tugger is Greaseball, and Old Deuteronomy is Papa slash Mama now. So these characters are very, very similar. And it's a display, every person's song in Cats is a display of a talent, a talent contest, trying to get yourself to the heavyside layer. It's kind of the same in Starlight Express, where you get like your one person feature song, big display of personality to get the character across. And then, you know—

[30:12] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Then hopefully I'm going to win the race.

[30:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, and it's all about winning the race. And everyone has their song to display why they want to win or who they want to race with. So yeah, it definitely has those similarities of the arc, I guess.

[30:25] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Yeah, like kind of conceptually. Now, when I found out the sort of childlike origins of this whole project with it being a television series, suddenly it was kind of an epiphany to me. I'm like, Oh, maybe I've been looking at Starlight Express all wrong. Maybe I need to be looking at it more through a child's eyes. And even Lloyd Webber has talked about how it's almost more like theater for young audiences. It's supposed to be an entry point for a lot of people who don't traditionally go to theater. Speaking of appreciation, right? And like you were saying, accessibility, that absolutely proves your point. So okay, theater for young audiences. It also means that he has never said that Starlight Express is set in stone.

The way that it was originally created is how it will stay. It's always meant to be revised, revived, changed, in order to access the next generation. And that has to do with production and arrangements and even I think music styles and trends. So to go through this show and pretend like we're going to talk about the version of Starlight Express is impossible. Like it's just not possible because there are so... Go to the Wikipedia, y'all. Go to the Wikipedia and see how many changes have been made over the years. But I think there are still some hallmarks that we can all agree on are pretty standard and don't change. Is that fair?

[32:01] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Yeah. I mean, even in the Germany production alone, per cast that comes in, there are changes. No cast is the same. So like whether that's choreographically, musically, megamix-wise, costume, there is always, always a change. Like the cast that came in after me, they have a slightly different show to what I did. Like I'd have to learn the show to go into it. And I think that is what makes it so special because also all the fans that came the week before, now the new cast are in, they're watching a different show, even if it's just slightly. So it just brings the people coming back every single time and how they have these fans that come back over 80 times in one season, because even throughout a season, sometimes there's changes and they just love spotting the difference.

[33:36] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Is that the I Do one?

[33:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. Okay. So that was written for Germany and now it exists in the English version, but it was never a thing before. Oh, that's so interesting. But you can see how you can get sucked into the lore of this show. There's so much to unpack. Wow. Okay, so let's go through the show a little bit. The whole idea behind Starlight Express is that it's a kid playing with their trains. True? Is that still how it is?

[33:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. Because it fuels the super fandom. Like I'm the one who saw this version and now I know the changes that exist because they changed casts or whatever. That's really interesting. And it's not even just like, oh yeah, I saw Sophie Rose's Pearl and that being the token thing. It's I saw Sophie Rose's Pearl when the Pearl was in a white costume. And I also saw Georgina when she was in a pink costume. It's not even just about the performer. It's about the complete design change or the song changes, like the love song between Pearl and Rusty. They've had like seven different arrangements. And now it ended up being one that was written by Andrew Lloyd Webber's son, only existed in Germany, and now has been translated to English and now is in the English production. But it was never there before.

[34:02] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Okay. Yes. So to my understanding, Andrew wrote it for his son who wanted a story about trains. And he's like, great, let's write the musical. And so it's something that his kid can come and enjoy.

[34:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Cute. Did you have an actual kid or was it the voiceover?

[34:23] Sophie-Rose Middleton: We have the voiceover in Germany. In London, they have the actual child on stage.

[34:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I just want to say that in terms of my exposure to Starlight Express, my grandparents for my two older siblings, when they turned 16, they each got to go to Las Vegas and see Starlight Express when it was playing there. And that was like their big 16th birthday present. So we had not two but three different CD albums of the concept music of Starlight Express from the 80s. And it really annoyed me because it didn't have all of the songs and it was clearly a studio thing. And so I wanted the actual cast album. So when musical theater nerd Jeffrey came around, I was like, we are no longer listening to this concept album. We are getting the 1992 London cast recording. And on said recording, which I listened to this week in prep for our conversation, man, oh man, was I reminded of all the things that we would make fun of, including like the woman who's pretending to be a little boy on that voiceover that's like, this is control.

This is control. I mean, it's almost like, don't put it on shuffle, because there's a possibility that you will get three races in a row with her saying that and it is, it's almost mind numbing. But anyway, so there's this kid who's playing with the trains. And then we meet all of the trains. We're not going to talk about all the trains here because there are so many. There are in almost, and once again, this goes back to the classical roots, I think of Europe and specifically Andrew Lloyd Webber, there's almost a Nutcracker type feel where you got like the Russian train, you got the Japanese train, you got the Italian train. I think they've maybe fixed some of the names so they're not quite so culturally insensitive.

[36:15] Sophie-Rose Middleton: They have in London, but like back in the day, once again, if you listen to that cast recording, they're like, here comes Nintendo.

[36:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I mean, yes, each train represents a different country. So that still holds. The only thing that happens in Germany that is one political move is they don't fly one of the flags. So per country, everyone gets a flag fly around, and only one of them doesn't, they don't unwrap it. And that's the only political stunt that I've seen sort of seen the shift in. But there's still the German train, the British, the British train is called Brexit.

[36:57] Sophie-Rose Middleton: And it gets kicked out of the race. It drops out the race. And it's like, yeah, honestly, Brexit has its own like fandom. People are obsessed as soon as people like there is not a train called Brexit.

[37:10] Sophie-Rose Middleton: So, in addition to the countries, though, we also have the technologies behind the trains. So you've got the old school steam trains, Rusty, clearly called Rusty because he's not nearly as cool as some of the others. And Papa or Mama at this point, are they? Yeah, so they're like freight trains and steam trains and like old, yeah, so they're basically coming out. Older sort of technology. And they would be maybe traditionally thought of as uneducated maybe or lower class? Yeah, I think if you put it in human terms, they would be like the homeless bunch. Sure, okay, interesting. And they never really fit in. They're a bit rubbish. They're not that fast. They're outdated. And a lot of the lyrics are because the other trains are diesel and electric.

So diesel is like, no, diesel is the power, it's the strength. And electric is like, I can literally just step and I go 100 miles an hour. Like it takes nothing for me to exist. Whereas Rusty has to try really hard to get himself to meet their speed. Totally. I think I can.

[38:20] Sophie-Rose Middleton: So I guess that's the difference of the different trains. And then you've got the carriages, which are stereotypically the females. So you've got like Carrie, Belle, Pearl, Dinah. And they are in that sort of stereotypical female role of they attach to the engines and they get picked to who would be the best to race with. But they are traditionally very, very feminine and, you know, stereotypically like quite girly, which is what Germany typically tries to push against a little bit more now. And they like the girls to be really powerhouse rather than like, oh, pick me. They're like, no, I'm the best to race with. Yeah, it's sort of that narrative has changed a lot in Germany from going almost like boobs out short skirt version of the girls into...

[39:07] Sophie-Rose Middleton: You're going to win because of me. Yes. And so they changed a couple of the numbers and they put in I am me or Ich bin ich, which is the German version. And it's literally saying I am me and that's all I need. It's my crown. It's my time. Like it's literally saying I don't need any of you. I am enough as I am. And that's, I think, been a big shift in the Starlight world. And they've made one also the Rockies. They've made one of the Rockies a girl as well, which used to be... These are the freight trains. Yes. But I can't remember what they used to be called. The hoppers. That was it. And they used to be the three boys and they used to do like basically like hip hop dancing. And now that's two boys and one girl and they still sort of do the same thing, but they've just sort of empowered women in that department.

[39:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Gotcha. Well, that makes sense. Well, this kind of goes to what I was saying about looking at the show through the lens of theater for young audiences, because this is where I call a little bit BS. I know that great, it's an entry point for young people in theater, except that so much of it is romantic. And if you know theater for young audiences, you get maybe, maybe one romantic relationship. And even then, expect all of the kids in the audience to go blech when they kiss at the very end. Right? But with Starlight Express, it is all about like who's... It's very soap opera. They're with that person and then they couple up with this person and then so-and-so dumps that person and they end up with over here.

It's very, very soapy. Now, I don't want to hold them to some sort of standard that actually came after them, because I really do feel like Disney perfected this after Starlight Express was written. They really understood how to integrate musical theater and children's storytelling in a really incredible way. But that is the kind of one thing that rubs me a little strangely. I'm like, I'm not so sure this is for kids per se.

[41:12] Sophie-Rose Middleton: The only reason I combat that from my production is that we never kissed.

[41:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There you go. Okay.

[41:18] Sophie-Rose Middleton: So that there's a change there as well. Obviously, that's been a big part, like Rusty and Pearl still get together, but it's more now we're going to race together. Even though the song is basically saying, I'm obsessed with you, I love you, and you're amazing. They never actually kiss anymore. And the same thing with Dinah and Greaseball. They are more of the relationship. Obviously, Rusty just thinks Pearl is amazing. He thinks that she's just everything he's ever dreamed of racing with someone like that, and hoping that they just have this lovely relationship, and he's really kind to her. And he just says, if you ever need me, just whistle, and I'll be there.

[41:59] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Whistle? Just whistle at me. But I think it was a little bit more curious in my production with being like, oh, who is this person? Oh, you're really kind to me. Thank you for being so kind. She says, why are you so kind? And he says, I just think we might need each other one day. And it's a bit more platonic, I think, presented to an audience. And they do get together in the end, but it's not so romantic.

[42:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Maybe this goes to, don't think about it so hard. They're trains. At the end of the day, they're not humans. They're not really falling in love. They're just trains trying to win a race. And the actual thing of the show is the toy set comes to life. And the question is, does it actually come to life? Or is the kid playing with it, making it come to life? And if a child is playing with two dolls, or two dinosaurs, or two trains, and they go, and then the kiss, that happens.

[42:58] Sophie-Rose Middleton: It's true.

[42:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So it's not so far-fetched that they would maybe be like, oh, yeah, and these two fall in love. And then these two get to race with each other. So I think it definitely used to be more wired with the love story. But I definitely think it's evolved now, especially for my production, that it's not about the love. It's about Pearl wanting to be with the fastest racer, because she wants to show what she can do. And on that journey, she messes up and she makes a wrong decision. And Rusty still has space for her and still wants to give her time and love her at the end of it. And she goes, I can't believe you gave me this chance. And thank you for listening to me.

[43:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's great. I love this. Thank you for bringing that perspective. So now the next thing that I need a little perspective on is the Starlight Express itself. Kind of the metaphysical, heavy side layer thing that we mentioned from Cats is Starlight Express. God is Starlight Express. The universe, it is some sort of entity that Rusty finds himself praying to.

[44:04] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Yeah, absolutely. I think that is a question that a lot of people walk away from going, is it a real train? Is it God? Because in the production in Germany as well, Mama sings it and she's in a little spotlight at the back. And some people thought she died and that she's speaking from heaven.

[44:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's what I thought. Sorry. I'm taking a step back and then we're going to come right back in. So we have Rusty, the steam train. We have Greaseball, the diesel train. We have Electra. I am electric as the electric train. That's like the triangle in terms of fighting for power, right? Who wants to win? Who's going to win? Greaseball, the diesel has always been the winner, right? The heavy favorite, if you will. So then there are all of these different heats in which all of the trains that we've met are racing in real time around the theater on roller skates in order to qualify for the finals. And Rusty, in his first qualifying heat, it's a disaster. Doesn't get called back. Not even first round.

[45:04] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Doesn't get called back. Not even first round. Me and him have that in common. So he's feeling really down. His confidence is destroyed. You've got this Papa or Mama character who's singing the blues, who decides to get back into the race in order to show Rusty that there's nothing to be ashamed of, to be a steam train. So now my understanding of the show, which is completely wrong, was always that Papa, I'm just going to say Papa because that's how I met the show. Papa wins his heat, but then the stress of the race kills him. And then he becomes the Starlight Express as like an angel or something like that. But that's not what happened.

[45:52] Sophie-Rose Middleton: That's not what happened at all. But I love so much that that's the reality of what you lived in for so long. No, that's what, for most of my life, that's what I thought happened in Starlight Express. Papa does win the race, but then he doesn't die. It just takes a lot out of him. I'm too old for this. I've made my point. I've won the race. Rusty, get your **** together and race. And because he's going, I can't race without Pearl.

[46:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, right.

[46:25] Sophie-Rose Middleton: And so Papa's going, it's too much. I'm too tired now. You have to carry on. Now we've won. You have to carry on this race. But yes, Papa or Mama, they don't die. They just, the way it's sort of performed is that the figment of the voice may be the voice of reason, but not the physical person or the physical train.

[46:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's not like a literal thing.

[46:48] Sophie-Rose Middleton: The Starlight Express in the song, right at the end, he goes, in me, in me. And he realizes the Starlight Express isn't a thing. It's what's inside you. It's your belief system. It's you going, oh my gosh, I've been reaching for the answer, the Starlight Express, but I've just realized it's in me.

[47:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It was in here.

[47:11] Sophie-Rose Middleton: I need to believe in me. I need to not project outwards and go, where are the answers? How can I win? Maybe the Starlight Express can help me. And then going, oh, I realized that I just need to believe in myself and it's been in me all along. I just needed to realize that, which is, again, why I think it's just resonated with so many people because it's such a tale as old as time, but it's just told through trains. And I also think maybe some people get a bit confused. Example number one.

[47:35] Sophie-Rose Middleton: I'm pointing to myself right now. But this is making sense. This is making more sense, I should say. Papa has always been the voice of wisdom, saying, don't give up on yourself, get back in the race, do the thing. So then, of course, his voice is also the answer that Rusty receives when he realizes that this mythological Starlight Express out there has been living within him all the time.

[48:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. That's my belief and understanding of it. Great. So then it's time for the final race. Greaseball at this point is with who? Pearl?

[48:18] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Yes, with Pearl.

[48:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay. Because Pearl made the wrong decision and picked Greaseball over Rusty. Electra is with Dinah? Or is Dinah not with anybody?

[48:30] Sophie-Rose Middleton: No, Dinah is, yes, with Electra.

[48:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And then who's with Rusty?

[48:35] Sophie-Rose Middleton: And Rusty is with... Bless his heart. The one... What is his name? Is that my favorite character, Dustin?

[48:44] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Dustin. So Dustin is actually a great character. He's really lovable.

[48:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, everyone always says, who would you play if you didn't play Pearl? Dustin. Hands down, Dustin. What a cute character.

[48:55] Sophie-Rose Middleton: He's like a total great sidekick character. He's a little self-conscious about his weight because he's a big fella.

[49:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He's cute. I mean, God bless the actors that play him because, my God, that suit is sweaty and it's heavy and it's hot.

[49:09] Sophie-Rose Middleton: It's huge. Oh, my God.

[49:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's crazy.

[49:12] Sophie-Rose Middleton: That is insane. So last race happens. Pearl falls. Greaseball's like, screw it. I'm doing it on my own, which is totally against the rules. Rusty saves Pearl kind of last minute from certain doom. And she says, carry on the race. You have to carry on. He carries on with Dustin.

[49:34] Sophie-Rose Middleton: And Greaseball, Caboose and Elektra get all squished together. Oh, maybe he races with Caboose.

[49:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, you're right. CB or whatever. Yes. So yeah, and then they get too absorbed with their own need to win. And yeah, they end up getting in a massive crash with each other. And then Dustin and Rusty win together. It's like the tortoise that wins the race, isn't it?

[50:01] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Yeah, no, truly, truly. Is there anything else that we need to talk about story-wise? That's kind of it, right?

[50:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, that's kind of it. I'd say overall, they're the main points. And then Dustin and Rusty win. Pearl's heartbroken that she's messed up this badly and she didn't even cross the finish line. She got hurt. Rusty still saved her. And then they have this wonderful song to bring them back together. And then it's just everyone celebrating together.

[50:29] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Yeah, and then Megamix time, baby. Megamix! So now let's talk about favorite songs. How long were you with the show?

[50:38] Sophie-Rose Middleton: A year. So 15 months in total with the training. But yes, a year I ran. Incredible.

[50:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So you got to know how audiences react to this show. What are the favorites? What do people love?

[50:51] Sophie-Rose Middleton: I think it really, I mean, there's different fandom categories. But I think as an overall arc, everyone loves the Rusty and Pearl duet, which is called Für Immer in German. And I do in the UK version. Everyone just loves it. Also, I have to say, in the auditorium that it's in, it's just this epic, like, belt out ballad, which just is like a really feel-good song. The mix is beautiful. And I think it's a really like top favorite. Light at the End of the Tunnel, absolute crowd favorite. Everyone's bopping along. Every single night, Standing Ovation without fail. That song just gets everyone up. It's great. And Starlight Express as its standalone song is in Germany, a visual spectacle to enjoy.

[51:41] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Yeah, the song is so epic. And it like rumbles the seats, it feels like a whole experience. I'd say that's probably the top three.

[51:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It does feel like the theater is its own, I don't want to say its own character, that sounds so cliché. But like, it is a very important part of the theater.

[52:03] Sophie-Rose Middleton: It really, really is. And I think you definitely feel the difference when you see it in smaller theaters, just purely what speed you're able to go at. And just like, we're literally like triple the speed of other productions, like the touring production, for example, they had ramps, that like one little ramp, but like we have bowls and bridges that like we come down onto the set, there's three levels, which you skate on, there's like moving parts, we have two tracks, which are just pure skaters, no performance, just actual like skater boys that get hired to do tricks all over the stage. They fly off ramps, jump off things like it's absolutely crazy.

[52:48] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Like, when I tell people about it, in a completely unbiased way for the fact that I did the show, I just tell everyone to go watch the show for the joy of theater. It celebrates everything you can do in theater. It's visually like lighting, sound, space, animatronics, visuals, like everything that's included in the magic of theater. It's there in this show. So even if you're not a fan of Starlight as a show, I mean, my family all flew out to Germany, didn't understand a word that was being said, because it's all in German, and had the best time of their lives, because it's just such an incredible show to watch. And you're in the audience, watching people fly past you, and your wind hits back, because the speed is so much.

[53:32] Sophie-Rose Middleton: When you watch the warm-up, you can pay to come and watch the warm-up on like a Thursday. And your hair is literally like flicking as people are coming past, because the wind is so intense. And you've got these massive side bowls that you go up and down in. It's honestly unbelievable. And if anyone listening ever gets the opportunity to go to Germany or Europe, please go watch it. It's so enjoyable, just as a piece of theater. Not even for the story, not for the songs, just the theater, and a celebration of what a theater can be. It's incredible.

[54:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: See, I'm so glad you've been here. I'm down to buy a ticket right now. This is so fun. So I guess the last thing that we didn't really talk about is the German of it all, because you didn't know how to roller skate. Did you know how to speak German either?

[54:27] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Nope. So this whole training thing that happens over four months, you're learning to skate from scratch, learning an entire two and a half hour show in German, and you're also learning the show. So four months does sound like a big time, but it's not to do that amount of...

[54:45] Sophie-Rose Middleton: To get all of that. And I had many a times I cried during the process. I was so often like, I'd call my mum or my partner and I'd be like, why isn't it in English? I just wish it was in English. But now I sit... One day, honestly, I don't know when it was. I just didn't pick up a script ever again. And obviously, I went back to reference things, but I just knew it. It was so freeing. Once I actually knew the words were going to come out, because also singing in German is flipping hard and it changes all of your vowel placements as a singer. It's so hard. Everything's quite closed as well. It's like half of it's just a fricative. It's not even a sound. Like how do you stay out of your throat?

[55:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And PAL is unexpectedly high. When I first saw the show before I was in it, on the first day we get there, the first day we watched the show and it's very exciting. I cried a lot because I was just like, I can't believe I get to be part of something like this. What an absolute honour of my entire life. But I watched it and I was listening to PAL's songs and it was so high. And I was like, I don't know if I can sing this. And I was literally sitting in my seat, like internal panic of like, this is really high. It's all like right on your break or like really, really pingy mixy but belt.

[56:12] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Lloyd Webber loves to do that to the girls, man.

[56:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Truly. And in German, it's so hard. I've really had to do training after the show to sort of re-figure out my placement of my voice in English, because it really shifted where I naturally put things. Like doing a show like that for a year, really shifted things inside my body of my vocal capacity.

[56:36] Sophie-Rose Middleton: That's also why I'm obsessed with performers like Wilhelmina Verheyck. She's like the one who's always dubbing Idina Menzel in German, you know, Frozen or whatever.

[56:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely insane.

[56:49] Sophie-Rose Middleton: She's a freak of nature. I don't know how she does it.

[56:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. I completely agree with you there. Like the vowel sounds, or like German Elsas, when I see that, I'm like, I'm so sorry that it had to be without a vowel. I hope you're okay.

[57:03] Sophie-Rose Middleton: I hope you have a blink if you need me to save you. That's incredible.

[57:10] Sophie-Rose Middleton: So you learn all the German in-house. We have coaches that teach us through the whole thing, and I'm literally walking to work every single day with it playing in my ear, just speaking like a crazy person on my walks, just trying to learn the vowel sounds and the placement.

[57:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I don't expect you to know this, but if you have any info, I'll take it. Are the majority of people who are coming to the show Germans, or are they tourists visiting Germany?

[57:36] Sophie-Rose Middleton: I'd say the majority is definitely German, because Bochum is a really random place to have this show. They built it for it to last like a year, and then it just did really well. So now it's just there. And people come when we've got a full house on a Wednesday afternoon, we're like, where have you come from? Where did you come from? Because Bochum isn't big and not that well known. So people are coming out of town every single day. And we're talking full houses midweek for this show, but they come from other places in Europe.

[58:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How many people are in the audience?

[58:14] Sophie-Rose Middleton: It's a 1,650 seater.

[58:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You guys!

[58:19] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Crazy.

[58:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And not like in the middle of Times Square, like you said, just kind of this... You speak to Germans about Bochum, and not a lot of them know it. That's the kind of place we're talking about. So random. But people do come from different parts of Germany. People do travel. We have people from America come over. We have people from all sorts of places. But majority is definitely German. And that's why the show is in German. They did one night, I think, ever, where it was in English. And people do ask for that a lot. And I wish we did get the opportunity to do an English night. But that's why it's in German, because the majority of the people are German.

[58:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow. How cool. Okay, this has been so great. Thank you so much, SoRo, Miss Sophie Rose, for doing this. I've had such a great time. And I really do feel like we've been able to celebrate how it's its own entity. It's like, in many ways, it is its own engine that just keeps on going. And more power to all of those great artists who are making it happen. And thanks to the audiences for keeping theater alive. That's really exciting.

[59:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast, you can always email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Don't forget to join us on Patreon! Where we have bonus episodes, polls, essays, all sorts of things that keep your theater nerd heart happy. Go to patreon.com slash a musical podcast. Boy, oh boy, would I love to have you there. We also are on social media. So please share our posts on both TikTok and Instagram. You can find links to how to follow us in our show notes, as well as a link to our TeePublic store where if you're feeling generous, you can order one of our designs on a whole myriad of products and the profits we receive from that, we will donate to Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS.

[1:00:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: More than anything, I just want to say thank you for being with us on this journey on our little train ride through Starlight Express. Sophie Rose, thank you for being here and for adding so much to this conversation. Can you please let us know how we follow you and anything you want to plug?

[1:00:30] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. This has been so lovely. I always love talking about this experience. It's one that I will never, ever, ever forget. This has been the absolute highlights of my entire life. So thank you so much for poking up the questions and bringing it all back for me. If you want to find me, I document quite a lot of the journey that I had with Starlight on my socials. So on TikTok, you'll find me at Sophie Rose Middleton. On Instagram, you'll find me at Sophie Rose underscore Middleton. That's sort of my main profiles in which I keep up to date with things. But feel free to message and ask any questions. I always love sharing my experience with everyone.

[1:01:11] Sophie-Rose Middleton: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

[1:01:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: My absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, everybody out there. Thank you for listening. And, you know, remember, I am the Starlight I can achieve. It's in you. It's in you. Starlight Express is not Papa who died.

[1:01:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay. He's not Jesus. He's not Jesus. He's just inside.