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[0:00] Sandra Joseph: 10 years in a role, you know, you have to be pretty asleep if you don't pick up on some of the deeper messages. And, you know, I've made a whole second career out of trying to understand all that the show has taught me. And, you know, I'm so grateful for the opportunity to share on this podcast because what you talk about is exactly this, the emotional and cultural impact. And I think that iconic story with all these archetypes is so relatable to so many. I think that's a huge reason why it's such a global cultural phenomenon.

[0:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome everybody to A Musical Theatre Podcast, where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we're discussing the musical The Phantom of the Opera, which was, of course, a listener request. Cynthia wrote in to request it. Cesar wrote in to request it, all the way from Belgium. It's also been mentioned by both Karen and Jeff, who wrote in about other shows but included Phantom as a vital connection to the art form. I just feel like it means a lot to a lot of us out there, including myself, if I'm being honest, and, of course, our very special guest. I can't wait to introduce her.

Sandra Joseph played the role of Christine Daaé in The Phantom of the Opera over 1,500 times over 10 years. She holds the record for being the longest-running leading lady in the longest-running Broadway show of all time. What else? She's hung out with Oprah. She's had a TED Talk. She has a book called Unmasking What Matters: 10 Lessons from 10 Years on Broadway. Everyone, please welcome the super inspiring Sandra Joseph.

[2:13] Sandra Joseph: Thank you. It's great to be here.

[2:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my gosh. I'm so happy you're here. I haven't known how to approach this show. It's one of the reasons why we haven't done an episode until now, and I'm so grateful you're here, because I really feel like you're going to get to the heart of the matter. Before that, though, I kind of wanted to tell you, if it's okay, I want to tell you how I first came in contact with Phantom, and then you can tell us how you did, because your journey is obviously very, very cool. The Phantom of the Opera was the first show I remember my parents seeing on Broadway. I'm originally a Utah boy, farm boy, and my oldest, my brother, the eldest sibling, had a senior trip to New York, Washington DC, and they all went and saw The Phantom of the Opera.

My parents came back with either the double cassette tape or the double compact disc, probably both, to be perfectly honest. In our house, we had, of course, the early 90s stereo system on the kitchen counter. I remember one of my first memories is sitting on top of the counter in front of that stereo, listening to Phantom of the Opera, and going through the liner notes, and looking at the pictures, and reading the lyric, and imagining what this show was like. If we want to talk about safe spaces, that's one of my first and earliest safe spaces, just disappearing into the story and the feelings of this show. If there's nothing else that I think that The Phantom of the Opera does well, it's being an evocative storyteller.

From chords to instrumentations and orchestrations, it is a mood setter, and I would just disappear into it. I feel like this is probably the same for a lot of us that love musical theater, that this is a total gateway drug. It really gets you into the joy of musical storytelling. Obviously, you had heard of it before you booked it, right? What was yours?

[4:43] Sandra Joseph: I'm 56 years old. I was introduced to Phantom when I was still in school. The show came out in London in 1986, but I didn't hear anything or know much about it until college. It was in an acting class, a musical theater class at Michigan State University, where a girl brought the song, Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again, into our acting class and sang it. I was stopped cold because of my very close relationship with my father, who had health issues from the time I was a young teenager. He had heart issues. I was always terrified of losing my father, who was my person, my safe space in the world, and the person who believed in me, and saw the best in me, and supported me. I was deathly afraid of his death.

When I heard Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again for the first time, I couldn't breathe. I immediately wanted to sing the song. That girl who sang the song, I went up to her after class. I was like, what is this song? What is this from? Tell me. She had seen the show, and she said, oh, you're going to play that role someday. It's perfect for you. That was my first like, what is this thing? Then it was all over the news. It was all over the press. It was like everybody had heard of it. The first time I actually got to see it, I grew up in the Detroit area. The closest place for us to see new shows was Toronto, because it was about a four-hour drive. As opposed to Chicago. Yeah, it wasn't in Chicago yet.

The show was in Toronto. It's true. It wasn't Colm Wilkinson. It was Colm Wilkinson who I saw, and Rebecca Cain, who I still feel like a little starstruck. We're Facebook friends and all that now. We've had chats, and I still sort of pinch myself, because she was the first Christine I ever saw from way back in the cheap seats. It was out of body when I saw it for the first time. Every cell in my body said, oh my god, I want to play that role. I thought maybe I would get to play it at a community theater in Michigan, or a dinner theater in Ohio. I never dreamed, A, that it would run as long as it did. I think at that time, I didn't even understand how rights to musicals worked. If it's on Broadway, you can't do it at a community theater. I never dreamed I'd do it on Broadway. That whole journey is a whole other thing.

[7:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, then let's dive into a little bit of your New York life. Were you in New York at the time when you started auditioning for it? Because I know you auditioned a couple times for it, right?

[7:59] Sandra Joseph: Yes, I did. I was not an overnight success, and I did not nail it on the first try.

[8:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which I love, by the way. We need more of those stories.

[8:12] Sandra Joseph: Yeah, I think we do. It's so easy to look at people who've achieved certain things, and you see the achievement, but you don't see the struggle that happened on the way to then all the failure, and rejection, and humiliation, and self-doubt, insecurity. So, that's why I've made a whole second career of talking about those issues, because anybody who wants to do anything that feels maybe too big for them, they need to hear the stories and learn some tools for dealing with that. So, that's why I wrote the book, and it's a lot of what I talk about in my keynotes and when working with young performing artists and young people in general. But I was in New York after college, and I sort of thought, I'm going to just give this my best shot.

My dad suggested that I give it a time limit, like give it five years, see what happens. If you're starting to get some traction, you can reevaluate. If it doesn't work out, move back home and figure out what the hell to do with yourself. So, I was like four and a half years in to my big five-year plan to make it in New York, and I was totally broke, couch surfing, maxing out all the credit cards I could get, studying my butt off, working with every great voice teacher I could find, and acting coach, and classes, and you know, pounding the pavement, all of it. I got a few little things. I was working temp jobs, secretarial stuff, and it was rough. And I was about ready to give up when I got the chance to audition for Phantom.

And it was like all the eggs were in this big, huge, overwhelming basket. And the first time I got in front of Hal Prince, I was so intimidated. I mean, I was still kind of in my soul, like fresh off the bus from Michigan. I made it through the first round, you know, to the point where they put me in front of Hal on the stage of The Majestic.

[10:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my gosh. I mean, that's huge. This isn't just like one thing in front of a casting agent. This is the director of the biggest Broadway show of all time.

[10:40] Sandra Joseph: Yeah, legendary director and producer. And I was so nervous that I kind of got the deer in the headlights in my head thing, you know, just like frozen. And I just couldn't relax and be present and do what we know we have to do. So, did not get it. I was devastated, of course, but they did give me a role in the ensemble. So, in that first round, yeah, I was the understudy for Christine. The track in the show is called The Mirror Bride, you know, the part when the mannequin bursts through. Yeah, yeah. So, that's actually a person in there. It looks like it's like a mannequin, right? That's a person. That was me. I played the dummy. I was a dummy for an entire year falling through the mirror. And while I was doing that, I got to learn the role over time.

And then a year later, this was on the tour. It was not on Broadway. My first shot, I was like, it's sort of several rungs down the phantom ladder from what I was hoping for, you know, Christine on Broadway, which I was in no way ready for at that time. But so, I was the dummy for a year. And then the actress who was playing Christine on the tour got cast in a different show and she was leaving. So, they flew me to New York to audition for Hal again. And at the second audition, when we're insecure or full of self-doubt, we feel like we're not good enough in some, you know, quiet inner voice. We often go to one extreme or the other. So, the first audition, I was frozen deer in the headlights. And the second time, I went to the polar opposite extreme. I was so determined not to be frozen that I was trying too hard and going over the top and being fake. And like, I was...

[12:53] Sandra Joseph: I was going to do it perfectly this time. That was what's in my head. I am going to prove to them that I can play this role. I'm going to be perfect. And so I pre-planned, you know, I was sort of like choreographed. I knew where I was going to move when, because I'd learned the show, right? I know this is where she moves with the scarf, and this is how she does it. You know, as I'm singing, full performance. Yeah, overdone, you know, over-performing. So I didn't get it again. Oh, and I really thought, okay, that's the end of it now. I've shown them that I'm not capable. I've shown them this is a terrible actress who can't, you know. And luckily, by some miracle, you know, I had worked with the supervisors, and they had seen me do the part.

Like, I had already gone on as the cover. Not many times, just like a handful of times. But I think they talked me up to Hal Prince and said, something is going, she's losing her mind when she comes in front of you to audition. But she's, they saw something in me. And they worked with me, and they gave me one last shot in front of Hal. And that time, the big lesson, which I share in my keynotes and in my book, and that I'm still learning and practicing all the time is like, here I am auditioning for a show about a man who wears a mask. And what I had to recognize is, I'm wearing a mask when I'm walking into these high stakes situations. And we all do it. No one is exempt from this, right? Sometimes we need to wear masks in life to stay safe out there in the world, right?

But as an artist, the greatest thing you can do for your craft, for your audience, for yourself, is take off that armor, take off the mask, and bring something real that's electric, and present, and authentic, and vulnerable. It's vulnerable as hell to do that. But I had to allow my nerves to be there and not try to cover them up by, you know, trying to put on this mask of see me as perfect. And I had to change my, you know, inner monologue. Instead of saying to myself, I'm going to prove myself. I said, No, I'm going to be myself. Just focus on, I am present, I am authentic, and I am enough, period. And bring that energy into the room and an energy of gratitude. I remember vividly, the morning of that final audition, I got a card in the mail from my mom and dad, I'm gonna cry talking about it.

It just said, like, we believe in you. And I thought, Oh, my God, here I am, like, I can't afford the food. Like, I'm like eating half a bagel that I can find in the, you know, leftover in the fridge of my friend living on my friend's couch. I'm failing left, right and center. And there are people who will love me and have my back no matter what. So how lucky am I? And as much as I want this thing, life will go on. If things don't go the way I want them to talk about a life lesson, you know, that's something I think we all have to return to over and over again, because I never want my story to come across as, you know, you just have to be authentic and vulnerable. And then you'll star on Broadway.

Yeah, exactly. You'll get the prize. It doesn't always go that way. Sooner or later, we won't get what we want. And that's happened to me in many other situations in life. We have to be really careful about how the ego wants to come in and run the show. Sometimes an easier approach that says, I am so grateful for this opportunity. I'm grateful for everything in my life. This one thing, even though it might mean so much to me, and I might want it so badly. Whatever happens, I will still be okay. I will still be me. I will still have people that love me. I think that can actually set us up to perform better. So there's research that shows that anxiety plus negative emotion diminishes your performance. But you can have anxiety, but if you infuse positive emotion, that will enhance your performance.

[17:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[17:42] Sandra Joseph: It's like, and there's research around that.

[17:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's like the Olympic type mindset.

[17:45] Sandra Joseph: Exactly. Yeah. If you believe that stress is bad for you, it will have some negative effects. But there's research that people who don't believe stress is bad, don't—

[17:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Are doing just fine.

[17:59] Sandra Joseph: They're doing just fine.

[18:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's fascinating.

[18:05] Sandra Joseph: It's interesting that you mention ego. And by the way, thank you for sharing all of that.

[18:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, thank you for listening.

[18:12] Sandra Joseph: Beautiful, beautiful. It's interesting that you mentioned ego because in Phantom of the Opera, it does feel like so much of the story, and one of the reasons why I love it's based in the opera world, is ego, right? Whether it's the Phantom's insecurity about his past traumas and physical deformities, the producers themselves needing the opera to be this success because they're coming on and have their money on the line. Carlotta with her ego needing to be, you know, like everybody has some skin in the game in terms of ego in this story. So, it's interesting that you kind of brought that out just about life in general, right? There's something there.

[19:01] Sandra Joseph: Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm glad you touched on that because I do think, even if people don't really recognize that on the surface level, there's something in that story that touches people in such a deep place. And I think it's because we can all relate to aspects of ourselves. We see ourselves in at least one of those characters.

[19:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Mm-hmm. If not many.

[19:24] Sandra Joseph: If not many, yeah. And Christine is, you know, her fragile ego and insecurity, you know. It was not a big leap for me to step into the shoes of that character.

[19:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, you just like opened a window into that character like in a sentence and a half that I hadn't thought of, which is she surrenders herself completely over to the Phantom because on some level she doesn't think she's good enough. She needs him.

[19:57] Sandra Joseph: There's that for sure. There's also how she's conflated him with two things. Her father, she literally thinks it's an angel sent by her father and God. Christine's journey in the show and her relationship to the character of the Phantom is it kind of in her mind he goes from God to monster to man. She imagines him. Before she sees him, he's teaching her.

[20:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure, sure. This voice.

[20:36] Sandra Joseph: This voice. This voice that's coming to her and teaching her. In my view of the character, she is desperate to sing. She's desperate to perform. She knows she's got something. She's been singing since she was little. Her father was a musician. She's not even in the chorus. She's in the ballet chorus.

[20:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She's a dancer, yes, but a dancer who knows she's meant to be doing something else. I've always sort of held it that way. Then this teacher comes to her and it's that sort of fantasy of being discovered. She's discovered in secret and getting these lessons. It's so intimate to sing in front of someone and to be taught. In my view of the character, the Phantom is the consummate teacher, the masterful. He's a master. You know how attached you can become to a teacher who really has a key that unlocks something in you.

[21:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's a great point, yeah.

[21:46] Sandra Joseph: So, and all you want is their validation.

[21:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Validation.

[21:50] Sandra Joseph: That's all that matters.

[21:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Their approval, their validation, and she gets it. He gives it to her, and she thinks he's it's an angel sent by her father. It's conflated with her view of God and heaven and where her father is. It's all wrapped up in a perfect storm for her to be completely vulnerable. Also, remember when Meg says, Christine Daae could sing it, sir. She's like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[22:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow, you're right.

[22:23] Sandra Joseph: She's terrified. She's terrified to sing in front of people, which that was me. The first solo I was ever given was in the fifth grade Christmas concert in Michigan. I took one look at the crowd right before the show, and I ran over to my music teacher and said, I can't do it. I couldn't do it. I could not get out there and walk to that microphone on a stand and put my voice out there in front of all those people. I couldn't do it. And yet, I was the one that got chosen to do the solo. I knew I had a voice. I always was singing to my stuffed animals in my bedroom as a kid, so I could so relate to insecure Christine who wants to, but she's terrified. So, the phantom is a god to her in the beginning.

Then she rips that mask off, and he attacks her, and she thinks he's a monster, and she's terrified. And by the end of the show, the beautiful journey is, like all of us, we're not gods. We're not monsters. We're human beings. We're flawed humans. And she has compassion for him by the end, and that's, I think, one of the many things that breaks everybody's hearts in that show. It's such a human journey. Anyone who's fallen desperately in love with someone and put them on a pedestal, and then maybe you get in a long-term relationship, and you see the worst in them, and then if you're lucky, the love comes through, and you get to see, oh, just like me, they're a flawed human being doing their best.

[24:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, it's so good.

[24:10] Sandra Joseph: You can tell I've thought quite a lot about this.

[24:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Look, I'm glad you did. I'm glad you thought and didn't just cash the paycheck, because I'm sure the paycheck was just fine.

[24:21] Sandra Joseph: So, let's talk a little bit about just the context of its history. The story itself, like the Phantom of the Opera story, was born in a Penny Dreadful type of way, in the same way that Jekyll and Hyde or a lot of Charles Dickens stories. The guy's name was Gaston Leroux, and he had written this serial over a certain amount of time, and then it was finally published altogether in 1910 as a novel. And it was based on the rumors that were happening at the Paris Opera House, plus some real-life events. The real-life event is that the chandelier did fall at the Paris Opera House, famously injured, and possibly even killed somebody. And then there are all of these rumors about ghosts at the Paris Opera House, the fact that there is literally a lake underneath the Paris Opera House in real life.

From what I understand, it's still there today, and sometimes they use it to train firefighters to swim in the dark, which is kind of cool. So there's all of this mystique, and then just history and art being made in this one really interesting location. And so he invents this character as being maybe the central force in the reason why the chandelier fell.

[25:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So on and so forth, it gets turned into several films, probably most famously a horror film in the 1920s, a silent one. Andrew Lloyd Webber. Good old ALW. This is what's kind of interesting, when I was thinking about this episode, is that up until this point, he's known for kind of silly stuff like Cats, Joseph, Starlight Express, right? These big kind of spectacle type things that are incorporating rock type music, big high concepts. Now, what was your view of him like pre-college? When you heard Andrew Lloyd Webber, did you think of anything of his? Did you know Evita?

[26:32] Sandra Joseph: I'm sure I did. I honestly don't really remember. Because I'm 105, and that was a long time ago. Well, no, but it's interesting to track. He's become who he now is, and so it's hard to kind of think back to that time. But he had so many kind of weird projects, and then Evita, which in and of itself is kind of weird when you think about it, that a lot of people didn't take him seriously. Broadway definitely didn't take him seriously. The West End more so, because he was a little bit more of a local boy. And yet, through all of that, all of his weird projects, he had this desire to create a romance. He wanted to write a romance. Because you look at all of those shows, not a one is really the deep, grand romantic story.

Then one day, he's walking down the street, and he sees an old bookstore, and he sees a copy of this novel. And it's 50 cents, because it's in that one box that's like, we're basically giving them away. And he thinks, you know what? Let me pick this up. And he pays 50 cents, gets the novel, goes back to his hotel room, consumes it, and immediately is like, this is it. This is what it's got to be. I need to turn this into my big romantic story. And he immediately talks to his producing mate, Cameron Mackintosh, who had definitely turned theater into a big blockbuster type experience. And Cameron Mackintosh, who at that point was helping get Les Mis started, has Trevor Nunn on the phone. But Andrew Lloyd Webber says, and this is according to his autobiography, that as much as he loves Trevor Nunn, and he's obviously an incredible director, that he knew he needed a showman to put this story on.

Because if you're too cerebral about The Phantom of the Opera, it probably wouldn't work. It almost needs to feel like a romance, where you're just caught up in the feeling, and you don't really know the person, but you're in love with them. He knew that Hal Prince was that type of showman. He could put on a show for people that takes them on this rip-roaring journey. And so, he fought really, really hard to have Hal oversee the entire production.

[29:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, how would you describe Hal as a director?

[29:11] Sandra Joseph: Oh, such a gentleman, such a dream. So kind, so generous. When you're a young actor coming into a gigantic show like this with a legendary director-producer like Hal Prince, I remember going up to him the first time to ask a question at a rehearsal or something. And I was like, excuse me, Mr. Prince? And he's like, oh my God, call me Hal. He didn't keep that big distance. And he was utterly unpretentious, and yet just a gentleman, a class act. He would come to the dressing room and give you a hug before the show, when he was going to watch and give notes. And you're absolutely right about Hal talked a lot about he wanted to do the project because it was a love story. That was the big thing for Hal that made the show such a success was it's a love story, the romance.

I mean, it's a sexy as hell story, too. My husband, I happened to marry my phantom, Ron Bowmer. Shout out, Ron. We still sing those songs. And in our keynotes, we perform a lot of the big love songs and duets, and people really respond. And what I love about it is that the love story is so layered, because you've got the phantom and Christine, and then you've got Raoul and Christine, and it's the different elements of love and romance and head and heart.

[31:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Devotion and heart, absolutely.

[31:00] Sandra Joseph: Obsession, yeah. But I'm so, so grateful that I got to work with Hal Prince. And he had these lovely old school things he would do, like send you a telegram, like a Western Union telegram.

[31:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, I'm obsessed.

[31:18] Sandra Joseph: I still have them, and I've kept all of those things over the years. And just a class act, very supportive of actors. Some directors thrive on intimidation, humiliation. I don't think Hal ever raised his voice. He made you feel safe to take risks, and he trusted you, but he also knew how to guide you and describe what it was that he wanted more of. One thing I loved working on with him was the scene right before All I Ask of You, where...

[31:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The Why Have You Brought Me Here?

[31:57] Sandra Joseph: Exactly, yep. And Christine is losing her mind, right? She's scared out of her mind, and she's confessing to Raoul for the first time that she saw him, and she knows what's going on, and it's terrifying. But by the end of that scene, they're singing All I Ask of You, and it's this...

[32:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's a big journey.

[32:18] Sandra Joseph: It's a huge journey in one scene. So, Hal was very big on the contrast of those stakes, and by the end of it, you go from absolute terror to swept away in love, and it's this youthful, effervescent excitement. Order your fine horses, and they're going to run off together, and she's so happy. He really helped me find that whole journey in that one scene.

[32:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: See, and that's, I think, when I was talking earlier about if you think too logically about it, then you lose the romance. You lose the ability to swing so wildly from those huge emotions, and that is kind of opera, right? That is the opera stakes of this particular show. You've got people operating at a 10 and swinging in the other direction to another 10, and yet, it feels right, even if you were to stop and think, like, how on earth could you do that in 45 seconds, right? It still feels right, and that is, I think, a huge kudos to Hal Prince, to be able not only to orchestrate stage transitions that happen that quickly, but emotional switches that happen that quickly.

[33:39] Sandra Joseph: Exactly, and always grounding it in the truth.

[33:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, exactly.

[33:43] Sandra Joseph: It is opera in a way. It's musical theater, but it has operatic tendencies, for sure, but Hal always insisted that everything be really grounded in truth and reality. It's a fine balance between, remember, this started in the 80s, and I got to watch it evolve over time, because I started in the show in '96, and then didn't leave it until 2006, and certain things evolved. Acting styles evolve over time. Hair and makeup evolved. The wigs changed slightly. Yes, imagine what the '80s, I was wearing all that purple eyeshadow, and it was influenced by the '80s when it was created, but things evolved over time, but Hal always, I think, found just the right level for what that show was. It was elevated, but also grounded in authenticity.

[34:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Beautiful, and that is musical theater. That, to me, that's what makes my heart beat.

[34:55] Sandra Joseph: That's what we love about it, right?

[34:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[34:57] Sandra Joseph: When people are like, what, so you just break out into song? I'm like, yeah, and it feels amazing.

[35:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It does. It does. When it's done well.

[35:06] Sandra Joseph: Because if you ground it, man, there's nothing more natural.

[35:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, and it is transcendent. It does things that words can't do, that language can't, but music can so beautifully take us there. I mean, I was so into musicals as a kid. I was raised on them. My father loved actors and loved musicals, and I remember from an early age, walking around the mall with my mom and wondering why no one was breaking into song and dance, choreographed stuff, because it was so real to me. I really thought that's what the world was.

[35:47] Sandra Joseph: Sure.

[35:48] Sandra Joseph: I'm still sort of disappointed that it's not.

[35:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Isn't it the best when you're at Trader Joe's and then a song comes on? I remember once I was specifically at Trader Joe's and Grease came on, the Grease mega mix or something that was popular for a while. I'm looking down the aisle and people are like, well, well, well, you know? I was like, this is amazing. Someone's shopping for spaghetti and kind of getting into this. Anyway, but yeah, I completely agree. Let's also talk about Sir. Is he Sir? Is he Knight or Lord? What is he now? I don't even know.

[36:24] Sandra Joseph: Andrew Lloyd Webber?

[36:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Is he still Sir? Or has he graduated?

[36:33] Sandra Joseph: I believe he is Sir.

[36:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I believe he is Sir.

[36:36] Sandra Joseph: We got some others to talk about as well, because he originally wrote the book and the lyrics with Richard Stilgoe, who he had done Cats with, and possibly something else that's escaping my mind. Richard Stilgoe, an incredibly intelligent, smart guy, very clever, very witty, loves an anagram. You look at his lyrics and there's always going to be a hidden puzzle in there. One of the things that Lloyd Webber has said about his original pass of those lyrics is that they were a little too jokey. There were a lot of hidden opera jokes in there, and this phrase in Italian actually translated to mean this. Anyway, it wasn't quite landing in terms of tone. So then they were looking for someone to rewrite the lyrics, and they found this guy by then.

Oh, actually, do you know what? I just remembered. They actually went to Alan J. Lerner right after Richard Stilgoe, and he was totally game and wanted to do it, and then ended up passing away of cancer before they could actually do it. So Phantom could have had lyrics written by freaking My Fair Lady, Alan J. Lerner, but then after him, they went to Charles Hart, who at this point was in his early 20s, just a young, young kid. They gave him the chance to do a pass of several songs, and the one that really hit was Think of Me. He did the brand new lyrics to Think of Me, and that was the one that really sold everybody. So he came on and kind of massaged a lot of the lyrics that Richard Stilgoe had done. I think that there were some hurt feelings at first, but now from what I understand, everybody got residuals. No one's mad. You know what I mean, right? I think...

[38:38] Sandra Joseph: Everybody's friends at this point. But it was kind of an interesting way to get there. The other interesting part, I think, especially as the media was covering this new show by Andrew Lloyd Webber, was that it was now starring his wife, his new wife, Sarah Brightman. And so, when I think of this, it had to have been difficult for her. Don't you think? To like, prove herself to be worthy of the role. I'm sure a lot of people just thought, you know, you're married to the guy, so therefore you get it. And in many ways, like Christine, she was a dancer first. They met because she was a kitty cat in Cats. So here was this, you know, dancer girl who wanted to be an opera star. And anyway, I mean, clearly had the chops for it. Yeah, I mean, she has one of the most unique voices. In terms of the opera classical sound, she has a very specific sound.

[39:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. And I'm really glad you brought her up because I think it would not be fair to talk about Phantom of the Opera without talking about Sarah Brightman's contribution to it. She was the muse for the whole thing. It probably wouldn't exist and maybe wouldn't have the power that it has had it not been written when Andrew Lloyd Webber was gobsmacked in love. Speaking of romance, right?

[40:12] Sandra Joseph: Yes. I mean, I'm sure on some level, he's the phantom and she's the girl. Of course, yes. And you know, all of those contributors to what it became, Richard Stilgoe and Charles Hart and Maria Bjornsson.

[40:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh.

[40:29] Sandra Joseph: Oh my gosh, Gillian Lynn.

[40:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The late, great Gillian Lynn. The stars align sometimes and bring together certain creative minds to make magic. And I mean, it ran 35 years on Broadway, longer than any other show, and stood the test of time. I mean, people like you shared your memories of it. So many people have a story about Phantom, a specific memory.

[41:03] Sandra Joseph: The first time I saw it was in Los Angeles. My dad took me on one of his business trips, which was so fun because there were like five kids in my family, and he chose me to go on the business trip. And then he surprised me by taking me to Phantom, knowing that I was such a musical nerd. And I loved it so, so, so much. And then I saw it again, right before the pandemic. And I got super cheap tickets last minute in the nosebleeds. And I sat down and I was like, wearing a shirt and a tie because I kind of wanted to, you know, dress up for the theater. And I sit down and right next to me is a guy in literally cargo shorts and flip flops, sitting down to watch Phantom of the Opera. And instead of like a feeling of, oh gosh, like people don't dress up for the theater anymore.

I had this feeling of how did they do it? How did they create a show that has essentially three scenes of opera? One, the Hannibal scene that's kind of Verdi-like, and then the Mozart one with the frog voice, and then this like weird atonal Don Juan triumphant. And yet they somehow convinced this guy who walks around life in cargo shorts and flip flops to pay money and sit in the like the last row and totally love it.

[42:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, wow. Yeah.

[42:33] Sandra Joseph: That's a mirror. That's huge. I'm amazed by it all the time. And everywhere we go, you know, I ask audiences, how many of you have seen Phantom of the Opera? And you know, every hand goes up just about and people, you know, if you could bottle it, everybody would and figure out that formula to have longevity like that and that kind of cultural impact. But I do think it has to do with the romance, the love story. And my biggest thing, and this could just be because I relate to this so much, is that I really do think it's something about that the story of someone who feels they're not enough as they are. So they wear a mask. And the journey of being unmasked and learning to let love in any way is a universal transcendent archetypal story.

Brene Brown has taught us so much about belonging and connection. And in the absence of connection and belonging, there is always suffering. And you can't get to connection and belonging without walking through vulnerability. And that means taking off the masks that we wear.

[43:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, with our time that we have left, I'd love to go through some of the show with you, because it's so well known. And yet there are these little pieces that I think are really revealing, starting out right at the beginning with the auction. We're now in the future, essentially, seeing a very old Raoul. It seems that Christine has passed and has told him about a music box. And so he has now come to this auction to see if he can get it. We later find out that the music box was in the Phantom's lair. And one of the other pieces there at the auction is, of course, the infamous chandelier. And one of the most iconic theater moments ever. I mean, truly, the chandelier comes to life. And as it is raised up above the audience, and we all know that it's going to come down at some point, which makes it even more exciting.

You have the incredible orchestrations of David Cullen and Andrew Lloyd Webber with the organ, I mean, it's coming up, and the entire stage comes to life. And we're now going back in time, and the Paris Opera House, the layers are being pulled back, and we see it for what it was. Now, what a Hal Prince touch.

[45:13] Sandra Joseph: Yes, it's so, so stunning. And one of my favorite things to think about is, before Phantom of the Opera, Hal had really hit some speed bumps in terms of hits. He had had Merrily We Roll Along, which was a big old flop. He had had A Doll's Life and Grind, both with Larry Grossman, that were also big flops. But that didn't stop him from then having the biggest hit of his career right after that with Phantom of the Opera. And A Doll's Life began exactly the same way, with a memory that then forced the stage to come to life. It was something that almost like he had tried out in a flop, in a show that didn't work, that didn't run, and he was able to figure out the stagecraft of it all, to then put it even better, apply it even better to a show like Phantom of the Opera.

[46:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's profound.

[46:13] Sandra Joseph: That is profound. Talk about a life lesson right there.

[46:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, don't throw away all of your ideas. If they don't work the first time, doesn't mean you can't learn something and improve upon them and make them even better.

[46:26] Sandra Joseph: Yes, carry them with you. All of the work that you do in a show that maybe doesn't succeed isn't bad or not useful, right?

[46:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, yes, yes.

[46:38] Sandra Joseph: Anyway, I love thinking about that.

[46:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I had goosebumps as you were describing it, just remembering that. And that actually, the moment when the chandelier is rising, that was always my cue to head downstairs. Christine's dressing room on Broadway was on the second floor. And as soon as I would hear that, you know, that's when the chandelier's... Then I have to go get ready for my entrance. So my heart still beats a little faster just thinking about it.

[47:07] Sandra Joseph: Ah, places.

[47:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly.

[47:10] Sandra Joseph: Thank you, places.

[47:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yep.

[47:13] Sandra Joseph: So then Christine's first big entrance, right, is with the ballet chorus in Hannibal.

[47:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She kind of sneaked on a little bit later, actually.

[47:22] Sandra Joseph: Okay.

[47:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The dancer, the real ballerinas start things off.

[47:27] Sandra Joseph: The ones that don't have to have air for, think of me, in a couple minutes.

[47:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right, right, right. Yeah, she joins in that whole big spectacle when the giant elephant is out there.

[47:37] Sandra Joseph: Yes. Oh my gosh. I remember being little and when the elephant turns around and there's the guys drinking on the inside. Because the show is dark, for sure. And I would often, growing up where I did, when it was nighttime, it was dark. We didn't have a lot of light pollution. And I often would be scared of the Phantom of the Opera and Sweeney Todd. That just goes to show what kind of a musical theater nerd I was as a child.

[48:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love that. Oh, that's so sweet.

[48:08] Sandra Joseph: But it is a dark and kind of ominous, scary show. But then it's also got the wonderful humor.

[48:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And the epic song, you know, Prima Donna and all of that.

[48:22] Sandra Joseph: All of the lyric play in that song.

[48:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[48:24] Sandra Joseph: So great. Talk to me about Carlotta, because this is when we meet La Diva.

[48:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Do you feel like she was a Christine? Has she always been who she was? Like, what has been your relationship with that character?

[48:37] Sandra Joseph: Oh, that's great. Well, I, having always identified with Christine, seeing everybody through Christine's eyes, I think Carlotta does not think much of Christine or her voice or her talent. I think Carlotta is the real opera star. And this little peanut with her little voice, you know, is sort of pooh-poohed by La Diva. So, I think Carlotta has always just been larger than life and grand and doesn't have the insecurities that Christine has. I mean, that's my view. Ask someone who's played Carlotta, they might say something completely different.

[49:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, she's certainly insecure about being replaced, right?

[49:23] Sandra Joseph: Yes.

[49:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But what I love about her as a character is that she is not untalented. She's supremely talented.

[49:29] Sandra Joseph: Oh, my God. Yes.

[49:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But the thing that it reveals about the Phantom is that he is kind of a visionary. He is interested in a new sound, in new music, and she is so representative of the older guard.

[49:47] Sandra Joseph: Yes. Exactly.

[49:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The way that things have always been done. And he's just not interested.

[49:52] Sandra Joseph: That's such a cool insight, Jeff. Yeah, absolutely.

[49:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely.

[49:56] Sandra Joseph: Like, you can't picture her singing Don Juan Triumphant. That would never work.

[50:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Yeah. He's a composer and a visionary, the Phantom. He really is. I mean, that talent of his was undeniable, even though he's, you know, in the catacombs of the opera house and, you know, in secret. I love that that's part of the story, too.

[50:20] Sandra Joseph: So then she, of course, is annoyed by all of these things that keep happening to disrupt her performance, including a backdrop scaring the crap out of everybody in the audience. And so she stomps off Meg, who's, you know, Christine's friend. They grew up together as well, or have they just been friends for a long time?

[50:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think they grew up together. And Madame Giry is Meg's mother.

[50:44] Sandra Joseph: Who's the ballet mistress.

[50:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. And Christine, having lost her father and, you know, Christine is very tight with that family, in my view.

[50:54] Sandra Joseph: Yeah, no, that makes sense. Kind of like an adopted sort of thing.

[50:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[50:58] Sandra Joseph: So then she is able to take on Think of Me, sing it beautifully.

[51:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She sings it at a performance, correct?

[51:06] Sandra Joseph: Does she? Yeah.

[51:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Because this is where I'm wondering if you can help me with a few specifics. She sings the performance, then she goes into the dressing room.

[51:16] Sandra Joseph: The phantom reveals himself for the first time.

[51:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. So that is the first time she's seen him.

[51:22] Sandra Joseph: The first time. Talk about stakes. When he comes from behind the mirror, you know, she sees him through the mirror.

[51:31] Sandra Joseph: Look at my face in the mirror. Yeah, I love that moment. Angel of Music, that moment to me, all those Angel of Music reprises later. Those are some of my favorite moments in the show, not only musically, but what they reveal. In the beginning, it's that God thing, where she, when she's in the dressing room, and she's, enter at last, Master, she says. It's worshipful for her. Then when he finally shows himself to her, she is so, I mean, love how it's all choreographed. Her arms are skyward, like she's waiting for literally the clouds to part and this angel from on high to appear to her. Then he says, turn around, and she sees him through the mirror. They talk about, she's sort of hypnotized, she's mesmerized by him.

Yeah, I think it's just an alternate reality for her. So yeah, he reveals himself to her. She gets to see a physical form for the very first time. Up until then, it's only been the voice. By the way, he also only does that after Raoul has shown up. Great point. I totally forgot. I skipped Raoul. Yeah, Raoul comes into the dressing room, and they have this reunion. Oh, my childhood friend, and we used to have these nursery rhymes, and the red scarf, and the whole thing. Then the phantom's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This just got too real. Now there's somebody else trying to come in. I got to step it up. Then he brings her down to his lair, and chaos ensues. I was thinking this morning, studying voice is incredibly psychological and emotional.

Honestly, if I could be hypnotized and have a voice lesson, and then wake up and not really remember much of it, but all of a sudden I have a high D, I'm kind of here for it. Right? Sign me up. This sounds great. Have you seen the more, I'm sure you have, the Maury Yeston Phantom, the Yeston Coppett Phantom? Yes. I didn't even talk about that one. Yes. The Yeston Coppett Phantom, part of the scenes is we get to see the voice lessons happening, and the romance from that, and the connection from that. I actually did the Maury Yeston Coppett Phantom before I did Andrew Lloyd Webber's Phantom. Oh my gosh. That sort of informed a lot for me too. I read lots of the other books. There are many, many books written about other people's ideas about the story.

I have a whole journal that I wrote as the character of Christine as I was preparing. Come on, fan fiction. That's amazing. Oh, I never thought about sharing it. Just what some of her inner thoughts are during Music of the Night, for example. Well, I looked up, I went on the slime tutorial. Oh my gosh, I have so many thoughts in my brain. I went on a bootleg to look up what the blocking was for Music of the Night, because that's a long scene, and she's not saying a word. I thought, my gosh, what is she thinking this entire time? If I had to point to a favorite moment to play in the show, that was it. Wow. That was it. Not only because I don't have to sing or say anything, but because, oh, it's such a delicious scene to play.

To just let it wash over you and react. The seduction of it all. A whole acting class could be done on that scene. There's so much going on there, and her inner monologue the entire time. You notice in Music of the Night, there's hardly any touching at all. What drives me crazy is when I see now high schools and young performers can do the show, and they're pawing all over each other. There's a lot of like touching and grabbing and this and that, and it's so much sexier when the tension is there. They're barely touching. I mean, she faints for God's sake at the end of the song. She's on the edge of fainting the whole time, but she's also just ... All these feelings are being awakened in her that she's never felt before.

Wow. That's hot. It is super hot, and it's right after he's just pulled these high notes out of her. Remember, the whole journey to the lair is the title song, and the sing for me, sing for me. He's sort of spinning out this sound from her, like you just said about your fantasy of the greatest voice lesson of all time, where you can hit these notes flawlessly, and then he's going to sing music of the night. I mean, it's just so lush and romantic and beautiful. I really want to give a shout out to ... It's got to be Maria Bjornsson, right, who came up with the phantom mask. Yeah. There's something so sexy about what it shows and what it doesn't show. It's so true. Granted, it's meant to cover up what he doesn't want to see, and yet, all of a sudden, he's looking like a handsome leading man.

Totally, totally. Aesthetically, that's a really great design. It is. It's genius. My husband, as Ron and I were playing those characters, we were also falling in love in real life. You have to show the true self. You have to show all of yourself if you really want to create a real connection. That mask is so powerful. It really is. When she takes it off of him ... That's when all of his true insecurities come out, right? Goes from kind of worshiping her in his own way to then calling her the worst names he could possibly think of. Yeah, yeah. Hal used to describe when the phantom is first unmasked, that scene where he's crawling across the ... He would say it's that mewling and puking and vile, the most base nature coming out.

Then that beautiful moment where what does she do? She gives him back the mask. She reaches for it and just hands it to him not knowing what else to do to allow him to go back inside his safe shell. Pull himself together, really. Yeah. Then what makes her, I mean, safety probably more than anything, but why does she choose Raoul? Ultimately, in the end. Do you think that she has chosen him? Certainly, they're engaged by the opening of the second act, the masquerade sequence, but is it in All I Ask of You that she's made the choice, or is she still a little bit fence sitting? It's a great question. I think if we really look at the reality ... I have always held that Christine feels a connection with the phantom that she'll never feel with anyone else.

I think there's something so deep there on a soul level that's connected them, but the reality is he's a murderer. I mean, we cannot take- We can't forget this part, can we? We cannot take that out of the equation, okay? This is not going to work in real life. And I do think she- I can't believe I didn't bring that up yet. That's hilarious. I do believe that she loves Raoul. I think she really falls hard for Raoul. I really do. I think they also have a very deep connection. Raoul knew her father. Raoul goes back to childhood. Raoul is warm and safe, and she really falls in love with him. Yeah. Well, it's interesting that you bring up the murders because his body count in the show is two, right?

Does he kill more than two people? He has the guy hanging- Does his bouquet. And he loves a rope. So he's got his favorite way of killing people. And then Pionji, right? The lead of Don Juan Triumphant, he gets murdered as well. So I'm like, is the Phantom of the Opera a serial killer? And we're just seeing two of the many murders that he's done with this stupid rope. This could be- He is very, very possibly a serial killer. Yes. He's a troubled soul, for sure. To say the least. For sure. Yeah. And also magical. I mean, there's certainly a degree of magical realism out there where he's- Yeah, yeah. And that's an interesting thing with phantoms to grapple with is, is he just a man who knows a lot of tricks?

Or is there some supernatural something? I think every actor who's played the phantom has their own personal view and how they choose to play that and what stories they're making up in their minds. Does Madame Geary, does she tell us his backstory about being in a traveling circus? Or is that- Yes. Okay. That is in the- A little bit. She does have a short scene with Raoul where she talks about that. More monster than man. She has a short scene where the Punjab lasso and all of that. Yes. She goes into a little bit of that. But it's not in detail. He has a traumatic background, to say the least. And what is- Well, he says when Christina unmasks him, this face which earned a mother's fear and loathing.

Yeah. Unmask my first unfeeling scrap of clothing. Oh, gosh. I mean, it's capital T trauma for that actor to grapple with what that is like. Okay. The last little section that I want to talk about is in the second act when the phantom has been very quiet for some time. Quiet enough that Raoul and Christine are secretly engaged. It's interesting that she's not ready to say it out loud. I think that's revealing. And long enough to get a new chandelier because, of course, the end of the first act had that big hoopla. But what they didn't realize is that it was enough time for him to also write an opera. Yeah. That's really the only reason he was quiet. So he shows up at the Masquerade Ball in that amazing Mask of Red Death costume and throws down his opera and says, you're going to do this.

And what's really fun is that they say yes, because if they produce this huge grand opera, then he is guaranteed to come, especially if Christine is playing the role like he says. Now, this is essentially the plot of that recent M. Night Shyamalan film, Trap, that everyone complained about, where there's a concert and they do the concert because they know that the serial killer is going to come and they can trap him. Anyway, it's fantastic. And everybody complained about it. I'm like, you guys, it's just Phantom of the Opera. Calm down. You're fine. So they do this. Now, like I said, I've seen Phantom of the Opera twice. And if I'm going to be totally honest, I have fallen asleep both times during Don Juan Triumphant.

I don't know why. I don't know why. Oh, that's devastating. Isn't that so sad and so terrible for me to admit on microphone in front of everybody? But it's true. I am taking off my mask and saying that I have fallen asleep. Now, so please tell me about what Don Juan Triumphant is about, because I apparently haven't ever seen it. Well, we don't get very far into it. You don't get far. Right. You don't get far. But basically, as you know, the Phantom has killed Piangi. Right. The lead actor. The lead. And there's this... Christine's got a very sexy role in this show. Shocker. Right, right. I think the character's name was Aminta. She's playing Aminta. And here she comes.

[1:04:24] Sandra Joseph: And The Phantom, once again, is in this seductive role where he has cast himself in the role of the Don Juan, of this irresistible character. And some of the choreography in the Don Juan scene mirrors the choreography from Music of the Night.

[1:04:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, that's cool.

[1:04:48] Sandra Joseph: Which is another Hal Prince stroke of genius.

[1:04:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's genius, yeah.

[1:04:51] Sandra Joseph: And again, there's this like, we're not really touching, but we're very close to each other. And he lifts the goblet up to her lips, and she drinks from this goblet of presumably wine.

[1:05:07] Sandra Joseph: Sometimes it was a little dusty in that goblet. I choked on it once.

[1:05:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, no.

[1:05:13] Sandra Joseph: Started coughing. Yeah, not so sexy in reality sometimes.

[1:05:19] Sandra Joseph: And as they're having this like, groping, sexy scene on this picnic table, she gets close enough to cheek with him, and she feels the mask. And she knows that it's him.

[1:05:36] Sandra Joseph: And she was terrified going into this, because she knew this was a really dangerous thing to do. And nobody's out there to help her. She's by herself. What does she do? So, she unmasks him again, basically, in front of everyone.

[1:05:51] Sandra Joseph: Because she knows that that's kind of his one Achilles heel, right?

[1:05:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, and she has to reveal, yeah, she's got to reveal to everybody.

[1:05:59] Sandra Joseph: What's going on? This ain't Piangi up here.

[1:06:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Great point, yes.

[1:06:03] Sandra Joseph: And she first takes the hood off, and you see that it's the Phantom. And then she takes the whole thing, and he grabs her and whisks her away. So, that opera does not get finished, because...

[1:06:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now we're hunting him.

[1:06:19] Sandra Joseph: Yeah, now it's the hunt is on for him and for her.

[1:06:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Can I ask you about the poor girl who screams so much in the show? Is that like, is that part of an audition? Like, who's the screamer? Do you have like an understudy screamer in case someone's, you know, like feeling dry?

[1:06:35] Sandra Joseph: That is so funny. I've never thought about that before. I think, yeah, no, they're just girls who scream. Probably a lot of it is Meg, I imagine.

[1:06:47] Sandra Joseph: That might be part of it.

[1:06:48] Sandra Joseph: Well, the ballet girls, the whole corps de ballet, they have to be terrified a lot in that show. There's a lot of the ballerinas screaming, yes, and running and twirling and in fear and running off the stage, running across the stage, and there's a lot of screams from the girls, yeah.

[1:07:08] Sandra Joseph: And Joseph Bouquet has that scene with all of them, where he's scaring them.

[1:07:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, that's a good point.

[1:07:15] Sandra Joseph: So, the very end, of course, is... talk about high stakes. He tries to kill Raoul, so I guess we almost had a third death there, a third kill.

[1:07:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, he threatens to kill Raoul.

[1:07:29] Sandra Joseph: But doesn't he hang? He's hanging by...

[1:07:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, but he doesn't actually tighten the rope.

[1:07:34] Sandra Joseph: Oh, that's true, because he's leaving it up to you.

[1:07:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He's leaving it up to Christine. That's right. If you don't stay with me, I will kill him.

[1:07:43] Sandra Joseph: I will kill the man you love if you don't say that you will stay here with me forever.

[1:07:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's a terrible way to do things, Eric.

[1:07:53] Sandra Joseph: So, that's his threat, but then you remember what he does after Christine finally, she's fighting, she's screaming, she's trying to reason with him, all these things. And finally, she says, pitiful creature of darkness, what kind of life have you known?

[1:08:11] Sandra Joseph: God, give me courage to show you you are not alone.

[1:08:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, gosh.

[1:08:16] Sandra Joseph: And she kisses him, and she hugs him, and she looks into his eyes.

[1:08:23] Sandra Joseph: And to me, that's the sacred moment. I actually had a pastor, or a priest, or a rabbi, I can't remember which, some man of God person, wrote me a fan letter, basically saying, I thought this was so beautiful, that his view of that moment in the show was like the eternal light of God's love for us.

[1:08:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[1:08:46] Sandra Joseph: That when Christine hugs the phantom and looks into his eyes, I used to imagine, I wouldn't use those words that the pastor person used, but I would say it's that universal power of love. And I used to sort of imagine all of the love of the entire universe, all the love that's ever existed, just pouring through me, pouring through my eyes, into his eyes.

[1:09:16] Sandra Joseph: If you've ever really loved someone, like the way a grandparent loves a child, and you just will them to love themselves, to see the goodness in themselves. If you've ever had a kid who was hard on themselves, or beating themselves up, and you just want so desperately for them to know their purity and goodness, and that's when he lets Raul go.

[1:09:45] Sandra Joseph: And that, I think, is that transformational moment that's always possible for all of us. When we let love in, there's freedom. He lets Raul go, he lets Christine go, and then she doesn't run off right away. You remember what happens?

[1:10:04] Sandra Joseph: She comes back and gives him, what did he give her? Was it a ring?

[1:10:08] Sandra Joseph: So, in the Don Juan scene, he takes his ring off.

[1:10:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, the ring, yep.

[1:10:13] Sandra Joseph: And puts it on her finger. And, you know, all these marital things are throughout, where the mannequin is dressed as a bride, and looks just like Christine. He's sort of showing her that.

[1:10:26] Sandra Joseph: So, those little elements are present throughout. And then she comes back in to have a final moment with him, doesn't know if she'll ever see him again.

[1:10:38] Sandra Joseph: And the music is that refrain we've heard throughout the show.

[1:10:46] Sandra Joseph: The supervisors would tell us, the Christines, that refrain, as she's giving him back the ring, is sort of her inner monologue saying, remember me by this. She's saying, remember me, remember me, and gives him back the ring. I mean, to affirm their connection.

[1:11:14] Sandra Joseph: And I think it breaks her heart to leave him, to say goodbye like that. I think, you know, obviously, he's devastated. He's broken. But I think she really is, too. I think that is one of the hardest things she ever has to do is walk away forever. I mean, all that that has meant to her, all that it's relationship has given her.

[1:11:35] Sandra Joseph: And to face the reality of, you know, like I said in the beginning, he's not a god. He's not a monster. He's not her father. He's not an angel. He's a human being.

[1:11:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And then he disappears, right?

[1:11:56] Sandra Joseph: Then he disappears through that wonderful magic trick we were not allowed to talk about.

[1:12:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Of course, of course. Don't destroy the magic trick. But do you think that, on purpose, I've never watched Love Never Dies?

[1:12:10] Sandra Joseph: Oh, wow.

[1:12:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I just...

[1:12:12] Sandra Joseph: I haven't either, by the way. I've heard things.

[1:12:15] Sandra Joseph: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I've kind of read synopses, but I just... I'm good. I'm good, I think. Unless I do an episode about, like, the sequel musicals, because I would love to do, like, Bring Back Birdie and Annie, too. But do you think it just kind of destroys him? Do you think he goes bye-bye for good? And it's okay to say, I don't know.

[1:12:40] Sandra Joseph: I don't know. Of course, I don't know. But I like to believe in the power of the human spirit. I like to believe in healing and resilience. And I do. I want to believe that the love that they shared and that moment of true seeing, of being truly seen, changed him in some way that's lasting and powerful.

[1:13:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'd love to think that it inspired a whole other opera. You know, he's still got a lot to share, I think, creatively.

[1:13:14] Sandra Joseph: Yeah, absolutely.

[1:13:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: If he could express it in a way that's healthy, I think everybody could benefit.

[1:13:21] Sandra Joseph: Yeah.

[1:13:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, gosh. Thank you so much for doing this with me today. What a total pleasure.

[1:13:28] Sandra Joseph: I've learned so much. I feel like everybody's learned so much. And it's going to be such a special episode for, I think, a very special show for a lot of people. So, thank you. Thank you for doing this with me.

[1:13:36] Sandra Joseph: Oh, thank you. It's a joy to talk about all of this with someone with the knowledge that you have this art form. It's astonishing.

[1:13:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, thank you.

[1:13:46] Sandra Joseph: So, thank you for this deep conversation. I really appreciate it.

[1:13:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on A Musical Theatre Podcast, you can email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com.

[1:14:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Join us on Patreon! for only $1 a month. That's $12 a year.

[1:14:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How many trips to Starbucks do you just, like, not do?

[1:14:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And you can have Patreon that's filled with great bonus episodes and ways to connect here in this wonderful podcast community.

[1:14:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We're also on social media, so be sure to share us with your friends on TikTok, on Instagram, on X. We also have our TeePublic store. Did you like our latest design dedicated to Team Kathy from the last five years? Why? Because we can do better than that. More than anything, just thank you for being here. I really appreciate you.

[1:14:38] Sandra Joseph: Oh, thanks. So, I'm on all the socials. Instagram, I think, is my favorite. I'm at Sandra Joseph, and my website is sandrajoseph.com.

[1:14:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Amazing.

[1:14:55] Sandra Joseph: And my book is on Amazon, Unmasking What Matters, 10 Life Lessons from 10 Years on Broadway. My husband and I do keynotes and concerts and private events, and I think the thing I'm most excited about right now is that Ron and I are doing a program with young artists that we call the Play the Lead Project, and it's really teaching leadership skills through the arts.

[1:15:19] Sandra Joseph: We do one-on-one coaching with young performing artists, and Ron is really a fantastic coach to help people bring their most authentic self forward as actors, and my passion really is about helping people get out of their own way so they don't struggle in the ways that I did with tripping over your own two feet.

[1:15:43] Sandra Joseph: So, building confidence and communication skills and embodying your authentic self so that we can all drop the mask and bring more of who we are to what we do, and you can find out more about that on my website, sandrajoseph.com.

[1:16:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that's so fantastic. I tell students all the time, when you are the lead of a show, it means you have to be a leader in the show. It doesn't mean that you're Carlotta, Diva, or that you suddenly have all of these privileges. In fact, you have more responsibilities.

[1:16:22] Sandra Joseph: So, be a leader. You have to be a leader, truly. I love that.

[1:16:25] Sandra Joseph: I think even for people who are not planning to pursue the arts professionally, learning leadership skills and how to show up authentically will serve you no matter what it is you choose to pursue in your life. We all need to learn how to play the lead in our own lives.

[1:16:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. I could snap in that one. Absolutely. Sandra, thank you again. Everybody out there, thank you for listening, and think of me. Think of me fondly.