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[0:01] Joe Iconis: Hey, Joe Iconis here. Jennifer Ashley Tepper. And this is our podcast where we talk all about my brand new album, ALBUM.

[0:12] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Today we're going to be talking about the song AMMONIA, sung by Heidi Blickenstaff.

[0:16] Joe Iconis: Yeah, and the first time the song has ever been properly recorded, and we have lots and lots to say about it. So give it a listen.

[0:23] Joe Iconis: Here we are. Let's talk about AMMONIA, which it's just like it's an epic opus of a song. Where do you even start with AMMONIA?

[0:39] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I don't know. I mean, it's just very long. You know, I obviously I'm someone who writes very long songs. And AMMONIA is one of my longest.

[0:49] Joe Iconis: Is it the longest on the album? It's one of the three. I feel like I'm doing the Broadway theaters in my head now.

[0:55] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I feel like AMMONIA very well could be the longest. I think it actually is. Yeah. Yeah. We're like in like full blown eight minute territory.

[1:04] Joe Iconis: And it's the third track. So we're really going big.

[1:08] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, you know, I sort of like that it's in the first few, the first few tracks on the album, just because I, you know, I think that it's if someone were to listen to the whole thing in order, it really like lets the listener know what they're in for, which is just an overwhelming amount of music, like just like overblown.

[1:26] Joe Iconis: But also it's the kind of thing where it's like, you know, it's the sort of song that I feel like typically is like the kind of song you get like three from the end of whatever the piece of art happens to be. It's like the 11 o'clock number or it's like, you know, like the sort of like surprise big song like an Arcade Fire album or something.

[1:43] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: But it's there's so many songs like that on this album.

[1:47] Joe Iconis: It's like there's so many like 11 o'clock numbers on the album that, you know, saving it sort of like, well, there's another, you know, seven and a half minute song.

[1:54] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yes. Ready to take its spot. So it felt like let's just like kick her off. Throw it in.

[1:59] Joe Iconis: So AMMONIA is sung by the great Heidi Blickenstaff.

[2:02] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. Of so many things, of Title of Show, of The Little Mermaid, of Jagged Little Pill recently.

[2:07] Joe Iconis: A million things that Heidi has been in. How did that start, pray tell?

[2:12] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Well, you know, Heidi is she was sort of the one of the inspirations for the song itself.

[2:19] Joe Iconis: I wrote this song in 2010 and I wrote it, you know, as a standalone song. It's not from any larger piece. And I premiered it at the Beachmen in July of 2000.

[2:34] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I remember it well. It was August, I think.

[2:37] Joe Iconis: Was it August?

[2:38] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. We did four shows that summer and it was like a special guest, a different special guest at each one. Heidi was, I think, one of the August ones.

[2:45] Joe Iconis: She was. And it was, you know, a lot of times in my life I've I have had a song that's sort of been in the back of my brain. And then I'll have a concert program and it'll be the kind of thing where it's like, oh, man, I really would love to, like, you know, premiere this song at the concert. It's like booking the concert then sort of like gives me the like kick in the pants to write the actual tune.

[3:09] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And that was very much the case with AMMONIA.

[3:11] Joe Iconis: And I had for years had this idea for a song that was going to be a person who is getting high off cleaning products as they're cleaning out, unintentionally sort of getting high as they were as they were cleaning the house. And I had the phrase, oh, AMMONIA, oh, AMMONIA, how you take the pain away. I had that in my brain and in a word doc and it sort of lived and I never quite knew what the larger story was.

[3:43] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And so at one time when I think when I first started writing it, I was like, maybe it's like a college student. Maybe it's about, you know, a college student, like studying for an exam. It was one of those things where it was like, I feel like it was, you know, the when I first started, it became very much like I was I was maybe trying to like be like, OK, I have this idea of, you know, this person going to have cleaning products. And how does it fit into sort of like, you know, the musical theater standalone cabaret songs of the day? You know, it's like overworked college student and it's like taking this idea of the overworked college student who actually is like getting high on cleaning products and sort of turn on its head.

[4:21] Joe Iconis: But as soon as I got into it, it felt like, oh, this song wants to be more about someone who has lived a little bit. I like the idea of it being a character who wasn't, you know, in their 20s, someone who was probably in their 40s or, you know, maybe a little younger, maybe a little older. But then I started really getting excited about it being a kind of, you know, for lack of a better word, housewife or this idea of a housewife. And this this this person is kind of trapped in this suburban life, which is something that, you know, there has certainly been countless pieces of art about a person who is trapped in their suburban life and they want to get out of it. But I felt like, oh, this could be a really cool way to tell to tell that story.

[5:10] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And so, you know, when sort of imagining who might sing a song like this, Heidi was always kind of like in the back of my brain.

[5:17] Joe Iconis: And so then I asked her if she wanted to be a special guest at one of these Beachmen shows. And she said and she said she did. And that just felt like, oh, man, this would be such if if I could if I could write this song in time for this show, it would be so cool to have her premiere this specific song.

[5:35] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And so that was the thing that made me like, I got to finish it, got to finish it.

[5:38] Joe Iconis: And so I did. And so once I actually started writing it for real, I wrote it relatively quickly. It was one of those songs that kind of like once I got into it, I was like, oh, I know I know where this is going. I kind of know how this is going to end. And then as well, it does not end well, does not end well.

[5:56] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And yeah. And so Heidi was the first person to ever sing it. And she you know, and there was no sheet music for the song. Like she came over to my apartment and and, you know, learned it from a lyric sheet. And we met a few times and then she performed it at the Beachmen.

[6:14] Joe Iconis: And it's like a video that's like sort of taken on legendary status amongst videos of my work because it's just such an insane performance.

[6:23] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: It's one of the craziest things about this song and this track on the album to me is like Heidi premiered it in 2010. And then it was like, oh, my God, that was so perfect. That was so incredible. It was like we were almost scared to touch it.

[6:34] Joe Iconis: Like I don't I know Heidi was Heidi was like, oh, God, I don't know if I can ever totally recreate that again. So even though it's been performed over the years by a couple other folks, including Chris Rodriguez, there's some amazing drag queen versions of AMMONIA that Heidi.

[6:48] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Heidi didn't actually do it again until she was recording it for the album.

[6:51] Joe Iconis: I don't think. Yeah. No. Like 11 years later.

[6:54] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yes. Heidi's performance on an album of AMMONIA is the second time she has sung the song.

[7:00] Joe Iconis: Yeah. Yeah. Which is wild. I know. It's like it's really surreal. And, you know, and when she when she came in to record it, it was you know, we recorded the album, obviously, during the pandemic.

[7:12] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And so we had this sensation over the recording sessions of of not only being excited to have people come into the studio to sing their song, but we in so many instances where we were seeing people for the first time and, you know, in a year and a half or two years even.

[7:28] Joe Iconis: And Heidi, it was like that. And it was so weird. Like, oh, I haven't seen you in so long. How are you?

[7:32] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And then she sings this song. The last time she sang it was 11 years ago. And it really felt we were all just kind of like we're in some strange time or situation.

[7:41] Joe Iconis: Yeah. I also can't let this moment pass without saying the AMMONIA video, the original, which is so many views and is so epic, gave birth to a thing that has lived on in infamy and family, which is our collaborator and friend Lance Rubin, who's also featured on many tracks on this album, was in the background as Heidi was singing, as you know, and was just kind of like like everyone was like lurking and watching and amazed by Heidi, but kind of making like a weird gremlin face almost by accident.

[8:09] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And so now anytime anyone lurks in the background of a video or even a performance, we call it Rubining for that video, which the comments on YouTube from so many people that don't know Lance are like, who's that guy in the background? Like, what a weird gremlin he is. Sorry Lance, I keep calling you a gremlin.

[8:25] Joe Iconis: No, it's appropriate. But I feel like we really learned a thing or two about framing.

[8:29] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yes. And because of that video.

[8:32] Joe Iconis: Yeah. But, you know, I it's it's it's a it's one of those songs where I'm I'm so proud of the song. It's one of it's one of my favorite things I've ever written.

[8:44] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: It really is.

[8:49] Joe Iconis: And it and it is a song that like it's the ultimate. And the collaboration between the song and Heidi Blickenstaff is just something that it elevates it. You know, and it's like I can listen to it. I can listen to her performance and I can try to remove myself from it. And and and feel like, oh, I'm so honored to have like any connection to that performance. You know, it's like not even that she's singing my song. It's just it's really.

[9:12] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, it's really a wild thing. And, you know, I I really, really love.

[10:17] Joe Iconis: That they don't want to be in and they go through this, you know, this crazy experience and then they usually at the end they're supposed to like learn something about themselves and then you know change their behavior. Like that's supposed to be like a, oh they, you know, they've had this epiphany, um, and we know it's an epiphany, uh, because like the music changes and then there's a big chorus and then at the end of the chorus it's like they're gonna, they're gonna, you know, march on and they're, they're not gonna, you know, they're not gonna do drugs anymore or they're, you know, they're gonna like, they're gonna start loving their children again or um, and I really love that in "Ammonia" it's um, she, she has that moment of realization and then she like doubles down on what she's doing, you know, and she, and that is kind of like the triumph where, and she, it's, and for her it does feel like a triumph because I think she is, she's addicted to this, this, you know, it's, it's less I think that she's addicted to, you know, literally the, you know, the getting high off of the fumes and I think it's like who's to say if she even is actually getting high or if she's just using it as an excuse to, you know, be unbridled and, and go insane every single day for, you know, for a few hours.

Um, but I, you know, she, she, she knows that it's a temporary fix and I really like that the character says that, that she says, you know, it, it's, it's only, you know, it's not genuine elation, um, it, you know, it's temporary, she knows it's temporary and, and in spite of that or because of that she's like, it's temporary, it's not a real fix and I want it, I want the fix and I'm not putting it away, I'm not a character who changes, I don't want it and I want to keep doing this, I'm gonna keep doing it and it's the only thing that brings me joy, you know, and it's like, and I love that like, you know, when she's talking about her, her, her daughter that it's the sense of like I want my, I, the, you know, it's like the lessons that she wants to teach her daughter, like the lesson isn't like, you know, um, uh, follow your heart or, you know, any of that, it's just like, it's, it's like a look at me, look at what I am, this is because I compromise, don't compromise, you know, like that's the only lesson that she wants to impart in the song, um, and I think all of that stuff is, is stuff that was kind of like floating around my head in at the time and I, I just, I, I like the way it found its way into this, this, you know, this strange suburban tune.

[12:50] Heidi Blickenstaff: I never thought of this until what you just said but I feel like in 20 years you're gonna pull out a song for the daughter, like the grown daughter, the sister song.

[12:55] Joe Iconis: Yeah, it is, no, it is a song that turns a lot of tropes on its head which I think is something a lot of people respond to in it. I'm so excited for more people to hear it. It's still strange for me to listen to the track though and not hear the laughter that I'm used to from a YouTube video, like I'm so very grateful to have a real recording studio version, yeah, but what, you know, the one thing like that from that YouTube video that I always think of, it's the very end, um, and when she sings like the last line, I think it's, I think it's Jason Williams who goes, "Yeah!" It's like a very genuine, you know, like shout of approval.

[13:28] Joe Iconis: Yeah, yeah, I was like I hear that in, uh, in the back of my brain when I listen to the track but you know something else that I think is cool about the track is that, you know, obviously this, this one recording of "Ammonia" that people, that people, um, you know, know if they know the song and as you said it, I mean literally it's, it's really only, it's Chris Rodriguez and I think are the only other people who like literally ever sang the song, um, but, uh, you know, this, that original version of it, it's just piano, it's like straight up, you know, piano only and so for this recording it was like let's do something that is, you know, the opposite of that, let's let the song itself sort of dictate the sonic world that we want to be in and, um, and you know Charlie Rosen, my, my frequent, uh, collaborator, he, you know, did this orchestration that is so enormous, it's like as big as anything on the album, um, you know, just from like number of players, like there's a full string section and a full horn section and a full rock band and many other, you know, clicks and whistles and assorted nonsense.

[14:37] Joe Iconis: Um, but I, I love that, that the huge, that the, the hugeness of the, of the, the vocal performance is matched by the hugeness and the sweep of the, the orchestration totally, you know, and for people who are listening to their album in order this is the first time that they hear those big string and horn sections, um, you know, which you get to hear throughout the album and not always at these concerts in person, yeah, just huge sound, just, yeah, humongous and it's like, and it's, and I, you know, I'd like to think that it's, um, the, you know, I think that I, I'd like to think that it's, um, it's tastefully distasteful some of the hugeness of the choices, you know, but it's like we really, it was just we, with any of the, the songs on the album, you know, we, we didn't want to hold back, you know, it wasn't about, I think in early discussions we were like should we try to make the sound uniform from, from track to track, how important is it for there to be a, a cohesion to the literal sounds of all of these different recordings and it, it just, you know, we sort of arrived at these songs are so different, the musical styles are so eclectic, you know, when I, when I write shows the shows sound like themselves and when I write songs the songs sound like themselves and, and we just were like let's just see what happens if we kind of let the songs tell us how, how they want themselves to sound, yeah, um, and that's what we did and, and I think because of that there is like a weird cohesion, you know, and it's like the fact that, yeah, like I'm going to use the third song on the album and it's the first time you're hearing these massive, you know, sections, um, but there are just so many like, you know, peaks and valleys on the album like the songs both the, the, you know, the content and the style and all that it's, it's, you know, there's like high highs and low lows, um, it really is sort of like a manic album in that way, it, it feels like once you get to the end of it it all kind of hangs together, you know, at all, I hope it all, um, it all I think makes sense.

[16:34] Heidi Blickenstaff: Yeah, I do continue to have a fever dream that Lauren Marcus performed it, like it's in my dream though, like she never has done "Ammonia." It's Lauren Marcus has never sung "Ammonia." It's because, and this is like always fascinating to me, but when we were doing the Jonathan Larson project and we discovered "Hosing the Furniture," which you had never heard before, we discovered that that was very much a sister song to "Ammonia" and of course that's Lauren's song, so for me I just keep picturing her singing it on a stage and I'm like I imagined this because, yeah, no you true, you, you did, you imagined it Lauren, you better sing "Ammonia" soon.

[17:11] Joe Iconis: Yeah, yeah, I've like seen her sing it, you know, around the house while she's cleaning I guess, yeah, um, yeah, no but what's so wild is that it is, it is such a, it's, it's "Ammonia" is so I feel like spiritually, you know, connected to "Hosing the Furniture," but I had never heard "Hosing the Furniture" before I wrote "Ammonia" and it was so, it like the first time I heard "Hosing the Furniture" truly was like oh my god, like it was, it was shocking, you were communing with Jonathan Larson truly, yeah, truly, yeah, um, yeah.

[17:40] Joe Iconis: Which I love, yeah, "Ammonia."

[17:49] Joe Iconis: Hey, thanks so much for listening or watching to my podcast. Do me a favor and go to wherever you just listen to or watch this thing and subscribe or like or give us a great rating or review and then head to bpn.fm/albumpodcast to find out even more information about this podcast, more ways to watch, more ways to listen, and check out my album, "Album." Thanks so much for hanging out. "Album Podcast" is executive produced by Liz Armstrong, produced by Dory Berenstein, Alan Seales, Kim Garris, and the rest of the team at the Broadway Podcast Network. Be sure to visit bpn.fm/album for both audio and video versions of this podcast and to listen to "Album."