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[0:00] Paul Lazarus: Hi, this is Paul Lazarus. In the 1980s I produced and hosted a radio series called Anything Goes, a celebration of the American musical theater. Now the Broadway Podcast Network is bringing back these shows. This is the first of a two-part program featuring the composer of Bye Bye Birdie and Annie, Charles Strouse. In January of 1982, Strouse came to my apartment in Manhattan and discussed everything from his collaboration with lyricist Lee Adams to working with Dick Van Dyke. In olden days, a glimpse of stocking was a look on at something shocking, but now God knows anything goes.

[1:07] Paul Lazarus: Good afternoon. The theme music to The Night They Braided Minsky's is an appropriate introduction to today's edition of Anything Goes, the first part of a three-hour look at the career of composer Charles Strouse, whose many shows include Bye Bye Birdie, Golden Boy, and All-American. Today we'll focus on Strouse's early years, writing jazzy piano pieces for his family, contributing songs to the now famous Green Mansion Reviews, his first big hit with lyricist Lee Adams' Bye Bye Birdie, up through his score in 1968 for William Friedkin's film The Night They Braided Minsky's. I'm Paul Lazarus. Join Anything Goes for the next hour and a half with guest composer Charles Strouse.

[1:55] Paul Lazarus: Charles, I just thought I'd start out with your background and your early training. You were born in New York City. Did you grow up in New York?

[2:10] Charles Strouse: Yes, born, raised, bred, unbred in New York. Yes, went to PS 87 and then I went to high school, Townsend-Harris High School, which was then stopped because of budget problems by the city, but I don't know. You were a Depression baby because you were born right around.

[2:34] Charles Strouse: Well, I was born around that time, yeah. But I'm proud of the fact that I'm a New Yorker and I've always loved the city and I've always tried to write something about it.

[2:45] Paul Lazarus: Well, you've paid tribute to it many, many times. Was your family involved with music or theatre at all?

[2:50] Charles Strouse: No, except my mother was a good musical amateur pianist, loved the pop music of the times, and I know that's where it all stems from, my mother and my closeness to her.

[3:03] Paul Lazarus: Did she teach you in the beginning?

[3:04] Charles Strouse: No. I found out that it's impossible to teach your own children and I didn't know that then, but she never even bothered. I tried with my own kids now and forget it, it just doesn't work.

[3:16] Paul Lazarus: Uh-huh. What was your earliest musical training?

[3:20] Charles Strouse: The earliest musical training I had was from a pianist who lives in Brooklyn today. His name was Abraham Sokoloff and he taught me a kind of popular method, which in a way was both good, that is, it induced me into music, and bad in the sense that there was a lot of theory and harmony left unsaid. And my first serious training came at the age of 15 when I went to the Eastman School of Music, and there I started from scratch as far as classical music was concerned, and that became my overriding ambition to become a composer, a serious composer.

[3:59] Paul Lazarus: Many of the excerpts you'll be hearing today are from An Evening at the 92nd Street Y, the Lyricists and Lyrics series, and I'm grateful to Maurice Levine for granting permission to use these segments. You'll next hear lyricists Lee Adams and Martin Charnin talking about composer Charles Strouse. Charles was trained at the Eastman School of Music and had no interest in pop music at all. His parents were very proud of him, and when he came home for vacation, they'd naturally ask him to play something for them. And perhaps his Aunt Stella, who was hard of hearing, or anyone who'd come over to the house, they could show him off to. The trouble was, after a couple of semesters, he couldn't help but notice that their responses to his piano sonata or the slow movement of his string quartet were merely polite.

That is, except for Aunt Stella, who applauded at everything, because she couldn't hear. So I wrote what I called party pieces, ones my parents might enjoy and make them prouder in front of friends. I'll play one for you now. It's called Ditto.

[7:06] ♪ Musical number: "Ditto" — performed by Charles Strouse ♪

[7:29] Paul Lazarus: What was the first musical you ever saw?

[7:32] Charles Strouse: The first musical I ever saw was Danny Kaye in...

[7:33] Paul Lazarus: Let's Face It?

[7:34] Charles Strouse: Let's Face It, yeah.

[7:37] Paul Lazarus: Farming was in it?

[7:38] Charles Strouse: Right, that was that Cole Porter musical.

[7:39] Paul Lazarus: Yeah. Why that was, I don't know, but it was.

[7:42] Charles Strouse: 1941, I think, or something like that. That's amazing. That's a really nice Cole Porter score, really, that's not very well known. What kind of impression did it make on you?

[7:51] Charles Strouse: I don't remember. Well, I do remember one thing, although not specifically about that show, but because of my age, the fact that I was always a little bit younger than the things I was doing, because I graduated from college quite young and high school, one of the things that always stayed with me about musicals was that they're very sexy, they're very glamorous, they're very bright and dazzling and fast-paced, and I was always glamorized by them.

[8:23] Charles Strouse: And I think that stayed with me. In other words, I think I'm years behind or ahead of, well, I say behind in a certain way, a lot of people who think of the musical as a very serious form, although, as you know, I've tried to do serious musicals.

[8:41] Paul Lazarus: Surely.

[8:42] Charles Strouse: A part of me is in love with the jazz part of musicals. Not that it can't be...

[8:48] Paul Lazarus: Glitter and be gay.

[8:49] Charles Strouse: Yes, but that's what musicals represented to me. I've always gyrated towards that.

[9:19] Charles Strouse: A fine jazz band. Then add some funny men. And pepper with laughter. It's tart and tasty, I know. Then serve it piping hot. And what have you got? A ballast show.

[9:49] Charles Strouse: I met Lee about this time, 1949, and we heard about a place called Green Mansions, where we could try out. Here's a typical review piece written at that time, and it shows a lot about Lee's thoughts. But more important, it shows the kind of writing that reviews forced us all into. There was no scenery as such, no play to fill in characterization. We simply had to invent numbers in one, in one being that part of the stage in front of the show curtain, where the songs and the singers were it, the whole entertainment. And we needed variety in the groupings too, a trio, a duet, a solo for the subrette, or a production number. There were people like Dick Sean or Carol Burnett or Dodd Adams to service, so we had to put out.

Here's a typical trio, three disgruntled mothers. Tonight at the Y, history is being made for two of my close friends, both lyricists and both friends to each other, have graciously agreed to be here to help me. But then again, lyricists have always helped me.

[11:02] Lee Adams and Martin Charnin: So now, Lee Adams and Martin Charnin will sing "Those Mothers."

[11:06] Lee Adams and Martin Charnin: Of the three mothers, two are quite distraught because their sons have chosen a horrible career rather than becoming the solid citizens their fathers are. The third mother, Martin, is quite smug.

[11:22] ♪ Musical number: "Those Mothers" — performed by Lee Adams and Martin Charnin ♪

[15:17] Paul Lazarus: And then picked up by producer Ben Bagley for his shoestring review of 1957. This is Anything Goes with Paul Lazarus and a look at the career of composer Charles Strouse.

[15:30] ♪ Musical number: "We Love You, Conrad" — performed by Charles Strouse and guests ♪

[15:57] Paul Lazarus: Okay, I'm going to jump ahead to your first big show in 1960, Bye Bye Birdie, which really launched your career. I'm just curious about the evolution of that show because I know nothing about it. Whose idea was it to do this?

[16:11] Charles Strouse: Well, the idea to do a show based on teenagers was Ed Padula's idea. Ed Padula was the father of us all. And Ed came to Lee and me first because he had heard some of our material in the shoestring review you were talking about before. And he said that he had this idea and we thought not only it was a good idea but we thought nobody else has ever asked us to do a Broadway show. It turned out he had never done a Broadway show. That's always the fun of it. It was his first and he had optioned an absolutely charming book by a man by the name of Warren Miller about a teenager who wanted a girl, a little girl who wanted to lose her virginity and spent the summer trying to do it and couldn't do it.

Everything got in her way and it was a wonderful book, very funny. And Warren and somebody else whose name I can't remember unfortunately wrote a book that I thought was quite charming and we wrote for that about 30 songs and got it down to around 20. And for a reason I don't understand but it's just the nature of Broadway. Nobody bought it. Nobody bought the book. But during the auditions out of these 20 odd songs which we played people always responded very well to a couple of them. One of them was a song about kids on the telephone. They always liked that and why we wrote it in that book I don't remember. And then...

[17:44] Charles Strouse: Obviously that became "The Telephone Hour."

[17:46] Charles Strouse: Yes. There were a few songs that stayed. Because of the vagaries of the business Padula could not get it produced with Warren's work. And very sadly he, we went along with what the producer wanted to do, tried to get some other book writers and we did get three or four different ones including Elaine May and Mike Nichols. And then finally we brought in Mike who...

[18:14] Charles Strouse: This is Mike Stewart.

[18:15] Charles Strouse: Yeah, who had been in Green Mansions. And it was really a bit of desperate pleading on our part because nobody wanted him really and he had done nothing at that point in his life. And Padula agreed to him trying it. Mike wanted to write, since Mike and Elaine were very hot as performers, they were just starting. Mike wanted to write a show for Elaine... Mike Stewart wanted to write a show for Elaine May and Mike Nichols. Which is where the Rosie and Albert characters came from. It was like an extended sketch for Mike and Elaine and it was amusing but it was not a play. And then Lee Adams had the idea to make it about the rock and roll singer. It was Lee's idea to do that and...

[18:57] Paul Lazarus: You say the rock and roll singer, was it not Elvis Presley?

[19:00] Charles Strouse: Yes.

[19:01] Charles Strouse: Or did that come later?

[19:02] Charles Strouse: Yeah, no, it was Presley. And that idea came from in part wanting to do a show for Dick Shawn. Lee and I had written a rock and roll number for Dick Shawn which he just did wonderfully. A take off on Elvis. In fact it was called Elvis. And so it all kind of came together in a weird way.

[19:21] Charles Strouse: Hi Nancy.

[19:23] Charles Strouse: Hi Helen.

[19:25] Charles Strouse: What's the story?

[19:27] Charles Strouse: Modern Glory.

[19:28] Charles Strouse: What's the title?

[19:29] Charles Strouse: Nightingale.

[19:30] Charles Strouse: Tell me quick about Hugo and Kim.

[19:32] Charles Strouse: Hi Margie.

[19:34] Charles Strouse: Hi Alice.

[19:36] Charles Strouse: What's the story?

[19:37] Charles Strouse: Modern Glory.

[19:38] Charles Strouse: What's the word?

[19:39] Charles Strouse: Hummingbird.

[19:40] Charles Strouse: What's the title?

[19:41] Charles Strouse: Nightingale.

[19:42] Charles Strouse: Tell me quick about Hugo and Kim.

[19:44] Charles Strouse: Hi Margie.

[19:46] Charles Strouse: Hi Alice.

[19:48] Charles Strouse: What's the word?

[19:49] Charles Strouse: Hummingbird.

[19:50] Charles Strouse: Have you heard about Hugo and Kim?

[19:52] Charles Strouse: Did they really get pinned?

[19:54] Charles Strouse: Did she kiss him and cry?

[19:56] Charles Strouse: Did he pin the pin on?

[19:58] Charles Strouse: Or was he too shy?

[20:00] Charles Strouse: Well I heard they got pinned.

[20:02] Charles Strouse: Yeah, yeah.

[20:03] Charles Strouse: I was hoping they would.

[20:04] Charles Strouse: Uh-huh.

[20:05] Charles Strouse: Never them at last.

[20:06] Charles Strouse: Seems complete.

[20:07] Charles Strouse: Going steady for good.

[20:09] Charles Strouse: Hello Mr. Hankel.

[20:11] Charles Strouse: This is Harvey Johnson.

[20:13] Charles Strouse: Can I speak to Penelope Anne?

[20:17] Charles Strouse: Can I speak to you about Kim?

[20:18] Charles Strouse: Penelope.

[20:19] Charles Strouse: I just knew it somehow.

[20:20] Charles Strouse: How about the drums?

[20:21] Charles Strouse: I must call her right up.

[20:22] Charles Strouse: Saturday?

[20:23] Charles Strouse: I can't talk to you now.

[20:27] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[20:28] Charles Strouse: I know it.

[20:29] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[20:30] Charles Strouse: Lady Mac.

[20:31] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[20:32] Charles Strouse: I know it.

[20:33] Charles Strouse: It won't last.

[20:35] Charles Strouse: Not at all.

[20:37] Charles Strouse: He's too thin.

[20:39] Charles Strouse: She's too tall.

[20:41] Charles Strouse: Hello Mrs. Miller.

[20:43] Charles Strouse: This is Harvey Johnson.

[20:45] Charles Strouse: Can I speak to Deborah Sue?

[20:50] Charles Strouse: High as you go.

[20:52] Charles Strouse: High as you make.

[20:54] Charles Strouse: But you ought to go big.

[20:57] Charles Strouse: Well I heard they got pinned.

[20:59] Charles Strouse: Yeah, yeah.

[21:00] Charles Strouse: I was hoping they would.

[21:01] Charles Strouse: Uh-huh.

[21:02] Charles Strouse: Never them at last.

[21:03] Charles Strouse: Uh-huh.

[21:04] Charles Strouse: Going steady for good.

[21:05] Charles Strouse: How about Mrs. Garfine?

[21:07] Charles Strouse: Is Charity home from school yet?

[21:10] Charles Strouse: Did they really get pinned?

[21:11] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:12] Charles Strouse: She saw it.

[21:13] Charles Strouse: I was hoping they would.

[21:14] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:15] Charles Strouse: She saw it.

[21:16] Charles Strouse: Never them at last.

[21:17] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:18] Charles Strouse: She never did.

[21:19] Charles Strouse: Going steady for good.

[21:20] Charles Strouse: Then they gotta go.

[21:21] Charles Strouse: That's the way to go.

[21:22] Charles Strouse: When they got you.

[21:24] Charles Strouse: When you're really cooked.

[21:26] Charles Strouse: What you gonna do?

[21:28] Charles Strouse: What you gonna do?

[21:30] Charles Strouse: Well I heard they got pinned.

[21:31] Charles Strouse: Oh, man.

[21:32] Charles Strouse: I was thinking they would.

[21:33] Charles Strouse: Oh, man.

[21:34] Charles Strouse: Never them at last.

[21:35] Charles Strouse: Oh, man.

[21:37] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:38] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:39] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:40] Charles Strouse: Steady for good.

[21:41] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:42] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:43] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:44] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:45] Charles Strouse: Steady for good.

[21:46] Charles Strouse: He's in love with Kim.

[21:47] Charles Strouse: Kim's in love with him.

[21:48] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:50] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:51] Charles Strouse: Doing well.

[21:53] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:54] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:55] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:56] Charles Strouse: Doing well.

[21:57] Charles Strouse: Going steady.

[21:58] Charles Strouse: Doing well.

[21:59] Charles Strouse: That is the way to be.

[22:00] Charles Strouse: Oh, yeah!

[22:03] Charles Strouse: Oh, yeah!

[22:04] Charles Strouse: Oh, yeah!

[22:04] Paul Lazarus: What was the reaction out of town to Bye Bye Birdie?

[22:24] Charles Strouse: It was a smash right away.

[22:25] Paul Lazarus: Where was it?

[22:26] Charles Strouse: In Philadelphia at the Shubert Theatre.

[22:28] Charles Strouse: And it being your first show, it was unbelievable is not the word, it was a numbing kind of thing.

[22:37] Charles Strouse: It's as though somebody just called you today, the phone that rang before, somebody said you've just won five million dollars, you'd say well thank you very much, and you'd put down the phone and you'd say what is five million dollars, I'm not going to leave this apartment, I'm not going to change my life or anything, no, it was abstract.

[22:57] Paul Lazarus: Is it true that you actually fainted when you heard Brooks Atkinson's review?

[23:00] Charles Strouse: Yeah, I did, I did, that's quite a true story.

[23:04] Paul Lazarus: Well I can understand it, one waits for these things.

[23:07] Charles Strouse: The numbness of knowing finally that you had a hit, a big hit, and not really believing it see, but a part of you, your stomach kind of accepting it last of all, your head started to say gee everybody says it's a big hit show, should run forever, very funny, smash. Hollywood movie, and then we came to New York and the first review we saw was a bad one.

[23:31] Charles Strouse: Yeah, his was really one of the only bad ones.

[23:33] Charles Strouse: It was the only bad one we ever received in this country actually.

[23:35] Paul Lazarus: He said it is neither fish nor fowl nor musical comedy, right?

[23:39] Charles Strouse: Yeah, he did not like it and to his credit he resigned right afterwards because he himself said it, he just didn't know what he was talking about.

[23:47] Charles Strouse: Now my life is rosy, since I found my rosy, with a girl like rosy, how could I be blue?

[24:04] ♪ Musical number: "Rosie" — performed by Charles Strouse ♪

[24:21] Charles Strouse: Oh I once heard a poem that goes, a rose is a rose is a rose, well I don't agree, take it from me, there's one rose sweeter than any that rose, and that's my rosy, I'm so glad she chose me.

[24:48] Paul Lazarus: What had Dick Van Dyke done before Birdy?

[24:50] Charles Strouse: Well nothing really of any, I mean he was in a show where I met him, I was the vocal arranger and pianist on a show called The Girls Against the Boys by Richard Lewin and Arnold Horwit and was with Burt Lahr and Nancy Walker and Dick had a very minor role in it, by the way so did Martin Charnin, that's where I met Martin also.

[25:11] Paul Lazarus: In The Girls Against the Boys?

[25:12] Charles Strouse: In The Girls Against the Boys, he was almost a gypsy, although he says I was a featured actor in it, I mean my recollection is he was a gypsy in it, but in any case Dick and I used to go out after the show and I said, gee Lee Adams and I are writing this show and I think there's a terrific part in it for you, he said I'd like to see it someday, you know when we all grow up it was that kind of thing, and then when we finally got the show on nobody would give, including myself I've got to admit in all honesty, nobody would give Dick the part.

[25:44] Paul Lazarus: Because he just wasn't a big name?

[25:46] Charles Strouse: He wasn't a big name, we felt, I mean Charles Strouse and Lee Adams and even Gower, Gower Champion, I mean he directed a couple of nightclub reviews, and so we were looking for somebody big but you know like a Dick Van Dyke type, and it was really through the pressures and the loyalty of his then agent Richard Siff that Van Dyke, he said you've got to see him, you wanted him in the first place, I mean I knew Richard well, and Richard insisted and finally we said well gee Jack Lemmon isn't going to do it, and so and so isn't going to do it, and Larry Blyden by this time was out of the picture, Larry was a much bigger star in a way, so we finally agreed to see the man I had spoken to originally about it, but didn't have the guts to follow through on.

[26:56] ♪ Musical number: "Put On A Happy Face" — performed by Charles Strouse ♪

[28:04] Paul Lazarus: Michael J. Pollard was in that show playing Hugo, did he sing well?

[28:08] Charles Strouse: No, and that was, I was sitting in a restaurant with Gower, and Michael J. Pollard walked by, and Gower said, that's the kid who was in, I think it was called A Loss of Roses, he said I loved him, and I said he was terrific, I said I wonder whether he sings, and he said I don't even know his name, so I followed him into the men's room, and we were both standing by the urinal, and I said to him, a bad opening line if ever there was one, I said, I have a show, and he looked at me just the way you're looking at me now, and edged away a little bit, and I said look, I don't know your name, I saw you in the play, and do you sing?

[29:16] Paul Lazarus: What was that song called?

[29:17] Charles Strouse: I can't remember, I just don't remember what it was.

[29:20] Paul Lazarus: Yeah I was always wondering why you never.

[29:22] Charles Strouse: Never sang a song.

[29:23] Paul Lazarus: That's right.

[29:24] Charles Strouse: Yeah.

[29:25] Paul Lazarus: Because Michael J. Pollard played the role.

[29:26] Charles Strouse: But we liked him so much, and he gave a certain nuttiness, madness to the play.

[29:32] Paul Lazarus: Absolutely.

[29:33] Charles Strouse: That was why it worked, if you did it legitimately without a Paul Lynde or a Michael J. Pollard I think we would have not succeeded.

[29:40] Paul Lazarus: Wouldn't have been nearly as interesting.

[29:42] Charles Strouse: There by the way was Gower's genius, he was a wonderful caster, he could think up casting ideas, and all of the casting ideas were his as I recall, that kept you off balance.

[29:51] Charles Strouse: By this time I guess he figured I was legitimate, but certainly no way to approach an actor, and he said yeah, I sing well, and I said well who do you sound like, and he said well he says I kind of sing like Sinatra, and I said gee that's great, and I took his name and his age, and anyway we called him in to audition, and he couldn't sing a note, couldn't sing not one note, but we liked him so much that we took out a song, he was supposed to have a song in the show, we took it out.

[29:58] Paul Lazarus: Me on the Ed Sullivan show?

[30:03] Charles Strouse: Ed Sullivan.

[30:08] Charles Strouse: Me Harry McAfee appearing with Ed Sullivan.

[30:11] Charles Strouse: Ed, Ed Sullivan.

[30:21] Charles Strouse: Ed, Ed Sullivan.

[30:29] Charles Strouse: Ed Sullivan, Ed Sullivan, Ed, Ed Sullivan.

[30:40] Charles Strouse: Ed Sullivan, Ed Sullivan, we're gonna be on Ed Sullivan.

[30:49] Charles Strouse: How could any family be half as fortunate as we?

[30:59] Charles Strouse: We'll be coast to coast with our favorite host, Ed Sullivan.

[31:14] Charles Strouse: Ed Sullivan, Ed Sullivan, we're gonna be on Ed Sullivan.

[31:27] Charles Strouse: I've got a wonderful wife, two swell kids, a good job, and now this.

[31:35] Charles Strouse: Someday we'll recall the greatest day of all.

[31:43] Charles Strouse: Ed, I love you.

[31:45] Charles Strouse: Ed Sullivan.

[31:57] Paul Lazarus: The late Paul Lynde in Bye Bye Birdie, singing a song from the score, Hymn for a Sunday Evening, a score by lyricist Lee Adams, and my guest today on Anything Goes, composer Charles Strouse.

[32:12] Charles Strouse: Ba-ba-ba, ba-ba-ba, ba-da-ba, ba-da-ba-ba, ba-ba-ba ba-da-ba-da-ba.

[32:22] Charles Strouse: Ba-ba-ba, ba-ba-ba.

[32:23] Paul Lazarus: You've been listening to Charles Strouse Part 1, the first of a two-part series.

[32:29] Paul Lazarus: Associate Producer, Geoff London.

[32:31] Paul Lazarus: Anything Goes Backstage with Broadway's Best is produced and hosted by Paul Lazarus.

[32:38] Paul Lazarus: For more information, visit anythinggoespl.com.

[32:42] Paul Lazarus: If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to rate and follow us.

[32:46] Paul Lazarus: Thanks for listening.