This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Justin Guarini: So you got to know what are the stakes of that scene? What do those characters want? What's the tone? How do they speak? Are they reacting or reacting? What all you have to just know all those things and where you need to see to get to.

[0:18] Justin Guarini: Hello, everybody, I'm Justin Guarini and welcome to another episode of Audition Secrets, the behind the scenes podcast for nailing more auditions, booking more jobs and having outstanding conversations with some really awesome people. And today is no exception, my friends. On the podcast today, I have Tony Award winning writer for Tootsie, the musical Robert Horn. Robert and I have worked together before and we have such a good time whenever we are together. And this conversation you're really going to love. We play it fast and loose and we make fun of one another mercilessly. He is probably one of the funniest people I have ever, ever met. Some of the things that we talk about are his career, his work as a writer and a showrunner on the West Coast, and the big takeaway from this is, you know, it's easy to see the people who have won awards, the people who have the big names, the people you always hear about.

But really, truly success in this game is not about getting those big victories. It's about staying in the game long enough to get those victories. And Robert is definitely one of those people who has been around and working and working hard for over 30 years and is now finally getting his due, finally getting his Tony for his wonderful work. Something else that we talk about is what makes actors stand out in the audition room and a little myth busting on what's OK to do in the audition room and what's not OK to do in the audition room, as well as the clues he leaves in his scripts as a writer. OK, let's get right to it. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you Tony Award winning book writer Robert Horn.

[1:57] Justin Guarini: Before I begin, in my notes from your staff here, funny enough, it says, Justin, you must read the following paragraph verbatim for Mr. Horn walk, so I'm just I'm just going to I was going to read the paper they sent me right now. OK, here we go. Wow, Mr. Horn, thank you so much for sitting down with little old me for this interview. The people listening on their headphones can't see it, but I am blushing furiously. I'm such a fan. Oh, wait, that's all in caps. I am such a fan. Robert, is it OK if I call you, Robert?

[2:30] Justin Guarini: I walked. I just I just I'm just going to keep reading. I'm I'm just going to gush for a moment. Not only did you win the 2019 Antoinette Award, colloquially known as the Tony Award, for being the best book writer of the 2019 2020 Broadway theater season. But you've done something that no one has managed to do in twenty two years. You swept the New York Drama Critics Award, the Drama Desk Award and, of course, the Tony Award. So I guess really, as I sit down enthralled by the fact that you have decided to come onto my podcast, my first question is, how does it feel to finally be the national treasure that you've always been destined to be?

[3:24] Robert Horn: I would correct just one thing in there and say international treasure. Tootsie hasn't gone on the international tour yet. Wait a minute. You haven't even gotten the national tour yet. Sadly, the treasure has no chest. Listen, it is you know, it's great. It's it's just the trophy, just the trophy that sits on my desk under glass with four lights on it. That's exactly the music that plays. It's it's it's first of all, for me, who has been doing this for many, many years on both coasts, it's an acknowledgment from a community, truly. And as you know, the theater community truly is a community more than I think most other art forms. And it's an acknowledgment from your community that you're accepted and that your work is appreciated more than anything.

And you know me, I'm not usually a serious guy, you know, I'm a I'm a bit of a you know, but I but it really was humbling and it really was. I don't like competitions, mostly for other people because I win. But it's I know I'm not a competitive person because I think every every artist brings something to their work that nobody else can bring. I just think we're all individual creatures and beings. And even though you might go in and write the same show as someone else or to have to read the same pages as someone else, what you bring to it is different. So it's not really a competition. It's just who's going to make the most money this year. And I got that. Exactly. And so but it's but it's humbling.

And it's and and it's it's really nice. But it also you put it in perspective and because the day after the Tony Awards, you're unemployed, you're back, you're like, OK, got to get my next job. So there's it's a harsh reality. But it's amazing. And it's it's it's amazing to and when you're you know, it is this series of awards, you know, in Hollywood, it's you have the Golden Globes and then you have the SAG Awards and you have these a series of awards leading up to the Oscars in theater. It is it's it's the series of awards. And it's just this mosh six week mosh pit of parties and events and press and campaigning and all this stuff. What for and for actors, they're doing that while they're while they're doing eight shows a week.

I didn't have that. But so it's intense and it's fantastic. And you're you're you're surrounded by people who be who you have admired your whole career. Yeah. You know, I saw next to them. And yes, saying people come to see the show and then come back after and you meet them and take pictures with them and you're like, oh, my God, I'm standing next to Norman Lear or Kara Burnett or Oprah Winfrey. And they're telling you they're praising your work. And so that those the spoils of that are wonderful. But it's thirty five years of work to get to it.

[6:24] Justin Guarini: Well, look, you know, I think the most astounding thing from my perspective really is truly your false modesty. It is it's impressive. It is one of the most things you remember. We used to practice that in the mirror.

[6:34] Robert Horn: Yeah, it was great. It was great.

[6:41] Justin Guarini: You always be at that, too. Well, now I don't know if anybody, if the if the three or four people listening are know this and I don't know if you said it, but Justin and I know each other. We worked together.

[6:52] Robert Horn: Yes.

[6:53] Justin Guarini: Without a doubt. I'm going to get to that. Look, look, I look who's running this interview, buddy. You you let me run the show.

[6:57] Robert Horn: Well, sorry.

[7:00] Justin Guarini: You go, excuse me, sorry, Tony winner. That's in the second. Thank you. I know you get I know you're going to probably you're going to get to that. But I have to say because there's going to there's there's already somewhat of an informality to our conversation. So the context is that we have a history.

[7:17] Robert Horn: Yes, without a doubt.

[7:18] Justin Guarini: And might I add one that I cherish?

[7:20] Robert Horn: Oh, me, too. Me, too. And I definitely alluded to that into the introduction to this interview. But in all seriousness, Robert, congratulations. And you're right. We did work on Moonshine, that he musical. And the book was a nonstop laugh. Right. I had so, so much fun with you. But let's take it back for a second. People know you now for Tootsie, but I want to get back to one of my favorite shows growing up, Designing Women. I remember watching that show along with Golden Girls because my mom and I lived for a time with my grandmother and aunt and uncle, and they watched Golden Girls, Designing Women, Night Court. Like those. So cheers religiously. And you're the showrunner for Designing Women. Now, what does exactly does a showrunner do? Obviously runs a show, but you're basically the head cheese, right?

[8:12] Robert Horn: You well, yeah, we don't say head cheese.

[8:18] Justin Guarini: I left that one open for you and you stepped right into the bear trap.

[8:21] Robert Horn: We don't suffer from that. I also part of the joke, you know, a showrunner in in television is the person usually who now initially not in the case of Designing Women. That was Linda Bloodworth Thomas and created the show. But the showrunner is the person who usually comes up with the idea for the show and pitches it and gets it sold and then is runs the show, puts together a staff and a team and and sort of oversees everything because it's their voice and vision for the show. I came into Designing Women in the later part of this series. So there have been a number of people before me in different in that position. So after it started to tank, they're like, well, who can we find?

[9:05] Justin Guarini: Yeah.

[9:06] Robert Horn: What happened was they were like, wow, this is going to get canceled. Who can we get? Who's going to take this? Who's going to ride this ship down to the bottom? Who's going to help you? And I said, I'll sink with this. And it was a really it was a very interesting and very quick acceleration, one that is not normal. You know, in television, you really work your way up the ranks. It's changing a little bit now as as as the industry itself is changing so much because, you know, there was a time when there were like five networks. And that was that was the only place you could sell a show. Now there's hundreds of networks and thousands of shows you can't keep up. And because of that, the escalation process to becoming the showrunner is much quicker because people are coming over from film who have never done television and suddenly they get their own show.

And that's just that's how the process has changed. But and I was talking to speaking of that, I was talking to Laura Bell Bundy, who was a guest a little while ago, and she said that the two of you have written a wonderful show together.

[10:05] Justin Guarini: And I cannot we did. We have a little a little TV project that Netflix that we're doing.

[10:09] Robert Horn: Oh, that's so great.

[10:10] Justin Guarini: I can't wait to hear more about when it's ready.

[10:12] Robert Horn: I we are not you're not there.

[10:18] Justin Guarini: I thought I could just just drop just a little subtle hint.

[10:22] Robert Horn: OK, well, when you get well, let me know when you drop a subtle one. So basically what happens is you start as a staff writer and work your way up after many years to different levels and become a showrunner. But this was towards the end of the show and they had cut the staff down and they kept cutting it down because there wasn't they were not pouring a lot of money into the show. You know, they were like going to be like, I think there were two or three seasons left at that point. And so I started off as a as a as a staff writer and very quickly because there was no one else accelerated to sort of running the show. And with David Steinberg, who was a brilliant I don't know if you know, director and comedian for many for from the 70s and 80s and an incredible director, ended up becoming one of the executive producers and sort of taught me everything, taught me how to cast, how to edit, how to how to run a show. And so it was a it was sort of like having never had a job and suddenly becoming the lead in a musical.

[11:21] Justin Guarini: Right. That's amazing. You learn as you go.

[11:24] Robert Horn: Yeah, sure. And I mean, that that that certainly happens to people in our business. Without a doubt. But to cut your teeth on that kind of show where where I really learned how to write for strong women characters and how to how to address issues through comedy, which sort of became something that I that I try to carry throughout my career. And I love, you know, even as you see in Tootsie, to deal with contemporary issues in a way, because I was saying, if you could make people think, laugh, then you can make them think. And sort of that's what.

[11:57] Robert Horn: Right, right. It's such a much better way to get to the heart of the matter, you know, through humor. And I think it loosens everybody up and you did a phenomenal job with Designing Women. Tootsie, Tootsie was all right. You know, it's great. It's a work in progress. But really, what's your favorite? What's, in all seriousness, what's like a favorite Designing Women production, audition, or like set story that sticks out in your mind? Do you have one? I have some I cannot tell you. Well, the ones that you can tell us. We did an episode where Annie Potts's character sees the face of Jesus in a shovel, right? And it started this whole conversation about faith and religion and the role it plays in our culture and all that.

I remember that episode and I remember we sat around and we were talking about it and we ended up sitting up into, I don't know, maybe two or three o'clock in the morning, having this incredible discussion about faith. Just the women and myself and David and, you know, some of the crew. And it was, I was out of body for one minute. I said, Okay, here I am. I was very young. It was my first show. I'm sort of in the head seat. I'm watching the show that I idolized for years before I got on it. Sitting with these incredibly talented people, having this discussion about faith. And I said, how will my career ever get better than this?

[13:27] Justin Guarini: Yeah, that's amazing. Now, let's talk about that for a second. How has faith, considering you said that it was, I forget, it was 33 or 35 years in this business. How has faith played a role from that moment until you were standing on the stage accepting your Tony Award?

[13:41] Robert Horn: Not at all.

[13:43] Justin Guarini: So you're a backslider, really?

[13:45] Robert Horn: No, not at all. You know, I think faith is different things to different people. I'm fairly agnostic. But I always say that I think anything bad that happens to me is God punishing me for being an atheist. So that's sort of my view on faith.

[14:03] Justin Guarini: That's good. It's gotta be. I think that you have, faith is about believing in accepting the forces you can't control, but believing, having faith in yourself. You are given a talent. You don't know where that comes from. Your job is to nurture that talent and to learn as you go. And because I think success is a serendipitous coming together of opportunity and ability. And so you must have faith in yourself and in the gift you were given. And navigate the things that you have no control over and have faith that you are going to make it. It's just believing in yourself. You don't have a lot to do with it.

[14:42] Robert Horn: Yeah, I always like to say that luck is preparation meeting opportunity, right? And that's the same sort of thing that you're getting at with faith. It's like you have to delve into yourself, own your own story. And if you're going to be passionate about something, and if you are passionate about something, you have to go for it full bore and just believe in yourself. You can't worry what other people think. And everybody will think something and let you know it. You just, you cannot let those things be blocked to your journey. You have to just constantly. And it's hard because this business is more about learning how to accept rejection than the successes. The trophies, you'll get one or two in a lifetime. There aren't going to be a lot.

[15:30] Justin Guarini: Yeah, if you're lucky, you'll get one or two. You'll get a lot of rejection.

[15:32] Robert Horn: Yeah, for sure. Now, speaking of rejection, I love the human aspect. Caleb, I never have. This is more about your listening.

[15:40] Justin Guarini: Yeah, right.

[15:41] Robert Horn: No, I mean, it's like you spend most of your time working on something that doesn't go or hearing people's opinion of your work. And so it's, listen, for actors like yourself, I, first of all, as you know, I love actors because I can't do it. You really put yourself on the line every time you go out and audition for something. I basically, as a writer, often will send my material in and it'll be judged, but I'm not in the room when it happens. So it's just so much harder. I can't imagine what it's like to put yourself on the line every time you walk into that audition room and walk out, no matter what happens, with a sense of either having learned something or with a sense of, you know, there's a line in Tootsie, which is sort of written as a joke, but he, she says, we, we battle off fear.

You know, this is for us, this is an opportunity. It's a, it's a success or a failure or a lesson, but it's a chance. We battle off fears just walking through that door. And I think that deserves some respect.

[16:49] Justin Guarini: Yeah. Thank you.

[16:51] Robert Horn: Yeah.

[16:52] Justin Guarini: Yeah. Thank you very much. And, you know, you, you segued that. Oh my God. I'm so deeply touched. Moving along. I hear you have been.

[16:59] Robert Horn: Moving along.

[17:00] Justin Guarini: I actually, I remember seeing some things, but I never really wanted it. Don't you?

[17:05] Robert Horn: It's okay. I've had most of it scrubbed from the internet. So, um, I, you, we segued most, we segued into very nicely. Do people know you're funny? Like, I know you as a funny guy, but do people know you as a funny guy?

[17:16] Robert Horn: You know what? I don't think a lot of people, I mean, my friends do, it's like when they see the little sweet commercials, like people who know me or have known me growing up, they're like, oh, he's not acting. He's pretending. That's a facet of his personality. A little sweet.

[17:27] Justin Guarini: Right.

[17:28] Robert Horn: But I think it's. Honestly, we, we laugh. You are just as a very funny guy with a very sharp sense of sarcastic and, and, and insightful sense of humor. And I guess people don't, people don't really see, but you, you are.

[17:42] Justin Guarini: Yeah.

[17:43] Robert Horn: Thank you. I appreciate you. I love you so much. It's so weird to me though, that you can have that kind of sense of humor, but still have no clue how to deliver a joke.

[17:52] Justin Guarini: Oh, you're cutting.

[17:54] Robert Horn: Excuse me while I bandage myself up. Wait, what happened? What happened to me? Everybody knows that is so not. I love to humanize the often barbaric process of auditioning. And you've sat in many an audition, including mine. So in the attempt to bring clarity to an often confusing process, what are some of the things that you've seen actors come in and do or say that immediately tell you they're not right for the role?

[18:21] Robert Horn: That's an interesting question. And I think that's different with every audition. And I can answer for myself. As you know, often for me, I have a specific style of writing and style of comedy. And you can usually tell pretty quickly if somebody understands the rhythms of what I write and, and, and what that is now that I'm not saying that they have to be perfect at it. But you can sort of tell when somebody has a flair for comedy or the ability to understand a space and rhythm and air and timing and, and flow. And you can usually tell that that pretty quickly if somebody knows how to deliver a joke. You want to love everybody. You want to be surprised that every actor that comes in, you're hoping they're the one that that is going to be the one.

[19:11] Justin Guarini: Such a great point. I tell this to actors all the time, which is, is we want you to be good. We want, and you know, listen, sometimes you get stuck with a time that's the end of the day and we've been at it for hours and you've heard the same thing over and over and you might sense a little bit of that. It might be a little colder in the room than you would like. Although, yeah, I try to be, I try to laugh, but we want to, we want to, I think those behind the table really want it to be successful on both ends. So I usually think that you have a chance. And I don't, I, you know, most of the time it's just about that somebody is not right for a role. And I don't mean physically because there have been many instances where a character has, an actor has come in that is not physically the type that you had imagined, but bring something to it that, that you also never imagined. And suddenly you're redefining what that character is for, for an actor that brings something special to it.

[20:14] Robert Horn: So, wait, so speaking of that and speaking of that, I, that, that really brings me to a good point. But besides his like stellar talent, the fact that he's just genuinely a great person and the fact that he had Tony nomination at the time, what made Santino Fontana the star that you had to cast? Did you write this with him in mind and not me?

[20:30] Justin Guarini: Oh, or did he come in and, and just blow you away?

[20:37] Robert Horn: Well, I'll tell you the truth. We brought in a director, an incredible director, Scott Ellis. I don't know if you know Scott, but he is just a prolific and incredible director. And the one caveat he had to do in the show was he'll only do it with Santino. He had known Santino from another project they had done together. And in his gut, he felt this was the right guy.

[21:00] Justin Guarini: But wait, did you not, did you not even mention me?

[21:03] Robert Horn: I didn't mention you.

[21:07] Justin Guarini: Scott said, as I said.

[21:11] Robert Horn: No, here's the interesting thing about this is since it was a unique experience is that I think only two of the actors in the cast audition, everybody else was brought in by the director or either Jim Carnahan, who is our casting agent or Scott Ellis from other projects they had known them for table reads. Scott, Scott's great because he would say, listen, he would say to Yazbek and I, there's somebody I have in mind. I don't know if they're right or not. But I'm going to I want to bring them to the table read. I think they'd be good. And just see what you think. See what you think. Knowing that we were going to say, oh, my God, get that person. And that happened with almost every character was cast from being brought in from the table read. Only two actors audition.

[21:53] Justin Guarini: Yeah. I don't I don't know what it was. Maybe I didn't pay my cell phone bill that month or something. But again, first of all, Michael Dorsey is for me.

[22:03] Robert Horn: Yeah, I know.

[22:04] Justin Guarini: I'm just kidding. He is so brilliantly cast. I cannot wait to come and see it because I am in love with so many of the people in that show. Right. So really great. And it's a love letter to to actors and to and to theater, which is what I love. I got the chance to literally celebrate. It's a little meta, but I got the chance to celebrate the very industry that the show is about.

[22:30] Robert Horn: Yeah.

[22:31] Justin Guarini: That that it existed. Have you ever walked out of an audition room and said to yourself, oh, my gosh, that was terrible. I should have could have done so much better. Well, you are not alone. I used to do that all the time until I decided to find a better way. And I started asking my coaches, my mentors, my friends, the shiny people I knew in the business, how they auditioned, how they approached the art of auditioning. And I began to discover patterns and roadmaps and secrets to success. And that's why I wrote the book Audition Secrets, Volume One, the behind the scenes guidebook for nailing more auditions and booking more jobs. And you can get that book for free at AuditionSecrets.com.

[23:21] Robert Horn: Why are you giving it away for free, Justin?

[23:23] Justin Guarini: Well, let me tell you, I want to give you more up front for free than most people will charge you for because this information is so vital. It is important. I want you to have it. You need to have it. And it will radically alter the way you audition, the way you approach performance. And like it promises, it will help you nail more auditions and book more jobs. So go on over to AuditionSecrets.com and download your free copy today.

[23:53] Justin Guarini: Okay, so you kind of answered one of my other questions about what is it that you wish, the one thing that you wish every actor knew when they stepped into the room, which is basically like, we're on your side. And I tell that to people all the time. And, you know, a lot of my students are like, it really is because sometimes there's, you know, we do things out of inspiration and we also do things out of desperation. And sometimes you're on the other side of the table and you've been at it for eight hours. And you know this better than I. I've spent a small amount of time on the other side of the table. And you're right. It's like, I love to tell actors, look, flip the tables for a second and imagine that you had to watch one scene from your favorite TV show over and over again for eight hours with different actors in it every single time.

And it's just like, how barbaric and how grating that is on you. And I just have so much respect for you, the writer, who has to sit there and listen to your work be done well or not so well every time. What's hard, here's what you should never do, which I have seen, is change the words, paraphrase, or act your inner monologue. Because I've literally had auditions where actors have spoken their inner monologue in between the written word.

[25:08] Robert Horn: No, you haven't.

[25:09] Justin Guarini: Swear to you. Yes. But here's the other thing. And this is important because I think when you're hearing the same scene over and over, you stop sort of listening to the words and start listening to the actor or the actress. I'm not gendered. I'm genderfied. And so I think what you look for is, and this is not always easy because sometimes you're getting sides the day of or the day before, but it's how it's choices. Is the actor thinking? Is the actor making choices? I don't care if it's the wrong choice, but if there's thought behind it, then I can say, all right, let me see how this actor takes direction. Let me see if I alter it in the room. If I say to the director, can you have them do it this way?

Or the director will say, try it this way, then try it that way. Because you hope you're in a situation where the director is seeing the material the same way you are. And you want to see that an actor has made a choice. And you said something interesting before. If you go into an audition out of desperation, out of needing the job so much, you're not going to be able to bring your best ability to that scene. Listen, I get it. You want the job. And sometimes you had a hassle getting there. You got stuck on the train or you're running late or you had a crappy day. It's okay to use all that in whatever it is you need to do as an actor. But if you come into the scene desperate because you feel like you've got to get the job, you've got to get the job, that is never going to be your friend.

Because you can sense it. You're not going to be able to connect to the elements that you need to connect to as you're reading the room, as you're working with the reader who might be great or might be terrible. Or take a moment before you walk in the room and check where you are. And if you've just been like, I've got to get this job. I really want this job. Let that go. You've got to figure out how to let that go.

[27:10] Robert Horn: Absolutely. I mean, I couldn't have said it any better. Well, except for the times I have said it, because I've said exactly what you're saying to so many of my students. I've said it on other podcasts. And I love the fact that you are confirming that I am correct. Because also, you know what? You don't need that job. That's the thing. You don't need that job. If that job is yours, you will get that job. If that job is meant to be yours, you will get that job. I got to say, I don't want this to be too aspirational, because I'm not that kind of person. But I have to tell you, you know, there's no reason I should be sitting where I'm sitting. There are so many people that are just as talented or perhaps more talented than I am.

Well, just that. But there's no reason that I should be sitting here and they're not. Except that you don't give up, and you keep plugging away. And the things that are meant to be yours will be yours. And if you don't get it, it wasn't meant to be yours. And I know that sort of operates on that faith spiritual level. And it's easy to say, but not easy to accept. But it's true. It's something else will come. Something else will come that was meant to be yours.

[28:26] Justin Guarini: Yeah, half the battle in this game, and you are living proof of that, is you just got to stay in it long enough. You just got to stay in the game, right? I mean, and when it gets hard, and when you're running out of money, and when you're running out of whatever other resources that you need, I mean, again, I go back to that inspiration and desperation. There's times when we do things out of inspiration. But there are also those times when I certainly have been in a place of desperation. And I find inspiration through that desperation. So that's where desperation can serve you. But I really love the fact that you spoke to walking into the room without the sort of huge Santa sack on your back of all of that desperation.

[29:21] Robert Horn: Oh, man, I can't I got nothing for that one. But yes, no, that's because like, I always tell my students, I'm like, hey, look, if you walk into the room that you got to set it down at some point, and most likely, you're going to set it down between you and the people on the other side of the table, and it's just going to get in your way. And nerves, nerves will get in your way. You know, it's okay to be nervous. But how do you use that? And how do you turn that into a good? How do you make that into a good audition? But it's reframing. See, I love to think of the like nerves. People are like, I don't want to be nervous. How can I not be nervous? It's like, no, no, no, no, that's a good thing.

That's energy. That's anticipation. You just got to reframe it. It's all about the story you tell yourself around those nerves. If your story is I'm desperate, I need this job, I'm going to die. If I don't get this, these people need to love me, then that is that's not the story that you want to walk in with.

[30:08] Justin Guarini: If you can own your question, go ahead. When you're it's opening, you book a job, and you're on Broadway, and it's opening night, and you're incredibly nervous. Don't you have and as well you should be and probably nothing is going to is going to dissipate that nervousness. But what happens when you walk out on that stage?

[30:28] Robert Horn: You know what, every single time a I tell everyone that I talked to about nerves, it's like, I'll be worried when I don't feel nervous, because I think it'll be time to hang it up at that point, because I just won't care. But I love being nervous. I love that anticipation. And what happens is, I get laser focused with those nerves. And people are like, I didn't know you were nervous at all. Because like, there's something and I'm not certainly not the only person that does this. But there's something that focuses me that makes me look really super sharp on the outside, even though I'm like pounding and sweating and whatnot, heart pounding on the inside. And after about the second or third note, those nerves go away, the nervousness feeling goes away.

And because I choose to be so in the moment, I am just then in that flow state, it actually sharpens me. And I'm just in the flow, and I'm doing it. And that little part of our brain that can say the most vile stuff to us while we're in the middle of trying to perform, quiets down, and I'm just in it.

[31:34] Justin Guarini: And so that's also what you have to do when you go into an audition. It's that same process.

[31:38] Robert Horn: Absolutely. And you've stood, you know, listen, you've stood on stage looking to the eyes of legends of our industry. And so that you also have to let that go. And you might go into an audition room, and there's people behind the table whose work you've idolized for years, and you're auditioning, and you want so badly to be good, because you're auditioning for people that are legends, or that you respect. You gotta let all that go, because it's your moment. That's your moment.

[32:04] Justin Guarini: Absolutely. It should be your moment, not theirs.

[32:07] Robert Horn: Right. I love to say, look, instead of going in and thinking of it as a performance, where you've got to go in and appease the gods on the other side of the table, and I mean that in the most positive way, it's more like a dialogue. Because when we walk into the room, and we put these people up on a pedestal, and we, and do all that, again, it's like stealing away from your moment. Like you said, if we walk into the room, being on the same level, because it's a dialogue between artists, and you're gonna go in, you're gonna do your thing, and hopefully you're going to be able to talk with the director, or the writer, or the casting director, or producer, or whomever's there, and have a dialogue to see, A, not only if you understand the material, but if you're someone that they want to work with for six months, or three, or a year.

[32:58] Justin Guarini: Well, here's something else that I tell people a lot. Like, when somebody comes in and auditions that I'm in the room, the first thing you should do when you walk in the room is look at the writer, especially, and say, this is the most brilliant script I've ever read. I just had to tell you that. I just, I needed to get that out of the way. I find that when actors do that, helps their chances.

[33:19] Robert Horn: Really loosens up the room, doesn't it?

[33:21] Justin Guarini: It really, it's just like, I like this guy. I'll usually lean over to the director and go, I like him.

[33:26] Robert Horn: Right. Good, good. That's one check. One box is checked off, at least.

[33:30] Justin Guarini: One box, right. So it is, and it's good to ask questions. Actors, I find, and I don't know why, don't want to ask questions, but I think you should definitely, I mean, not, you know, don't ask me who I'm dating, but ask, but it's okay to ask questions. It's okay to ask, can I do it again? It's okay to say, look, I made a choice on something, but it's okay to ask.

[33:56] Robert Horn: Yeah, absolutely. And again, that goes back to what we were saying. This is a dialogue. It is a back and forth and you're allowed to go in and not have all the answers. I love to frame script analysis to my students, kind of like, as if we're detectives and that it's our job to find the clues that the writers left for us. So it's a two-part question. When you sit down to write scenes, book scenes, how do you, A, approach the process? Because I would love to give people who stand on the actor's side of the table a view into how you go about the process of creating the scene. And then the follow-up question to that is that, you know, about the clues, but let's start about the process of you writing a book scene and what it is, your sort of language, your pacing, your version of comedy. What is that?

[34:50] Robert Horn: Well, I, you know, me, I like, I'm a joke guy. I like a lot of laughs, but you have to, you know, you have to analyze what the scene is asking for. First off, it's all about tone. Tone is the most important thing when you're writing anything. And so you have to know what the tone of the piece is. When, you know, for Moonshine and Tootsie, it's farce. I was writing farce, both of them. And I love, I love fast dialogue, big jokes and high stakes. So you gotta know what are the stakes of that scene? What do those characters want? What's the tone? How do they speak? Are they reacting or reacting? You have to just know all those things and where you need the scene to get to. The interesting thing like is in Tootsie, there are like four, sometimes three, four or five scenes in a row with no song. So it's almost like a play. Sometimes you just gotta get, you have to get to the

[35:49] Robert Horn: And the song is going to give you the information that you need, which happens often also. So it depends what the scene asks for and wants, but it's always about what's at stake, what are the stakes, who are the characters, how do they speak, and what is the tone. So, OK, great. So let's see what your favorite scene from Tootsie is. OK, let's take that for example. I know it's like asking what your favorite breath is. I understand. And so if you had to choose a favorite scene from Tootsie, in that scene, what, in the fact that our tone is farcical, the stakes are high, if in fact the scene has high stakes in it, what are the clues that you leave for actors to interpret the intention of your scene?

I mean, basically, I'm asking you whether or not you're clueless, but, hey, did you like that? That's pretty good delivery, wasn't it? That's good. Hey. Every show. Even a blind squirrel gets a nudge sometimes, right? Listen, guys, so just so you know, at the end of the show, I'm going to ask the clue question, but I'm going to do the joke. I'm going to do the joke again, OK? You know, I tend to like, a lot of writers don't, but I tend to like putting in stage direction, putting it where I think there's a beat or I think there's a pause or where a dialogue overlaps. But the clues are all in the writing. It's just in, you can feel the tone. Is it fast? Is the dialogue fast? Or is it more monologue-y? Is there air?

Are there breath? You could see it on the page. If it's quick dialogue, you know what I'm telling you, go, go, there's a pace to this. It's clippy. It's fast. It usually is fast, you know, faster, louder, funnier, right? Sometimes. And you know, especially with joke comedy, it's get to the end of the line. Get to the joke. Get to it. But you know the setup. But it's really on the page in terms of what is the tone and pace. That's what it's telling you. Sometimes a character will have a half page or full page monologue where there's a build. It's clear you got to start off a little slow and then you're building and you're building and you're building and you're building to the big payoff of the monologue.

So it's really all there. It's really all there. Now, what an actor then has to come to do. I as a writer will give birth to all of this. Your job as the actor is to then bring it to life because it's just words on a page. But you sort of, if you've got clippy dialogue with a lot of punchlines and people acting, action, reaction, action, reaction, one after the next, and there's a lot of that in Tootsie and you slow that down or you decide you want to, you know, you decide you're going to make this a little bit of a drama. It'll never work. Right. It'll never work. And you can feel that. You can feel that. And I think that's a great thing, too. Like, one of the great things about Scott Ellis is he trusts the material, that he understands the vision in the piece in its entirety.

He creates the symphony, but he respects what each instrument is doing. And it's about respecting the material and actor, too. It's don't try to don't don't try to be better than what the and sometimes you sometimes you have to make not so great material. Great. That's an actor's job, too. But don't judge that. Right. Don't judge that. Sure. Yeah. Just do it. That's the problem. Just do it. Have fun. Yeah. But, you know, it's interesting because one of my favorite scenes in Tootsie is a scene where there's not a lot. It's a lot of it's not a lot of dialogue. There is dialogue, but it's a lot of it is about physical comedy and reactions and the laughter in the scenes are so long. This is another thing that I'm amazed at what what really good comedic actors can do is knowing how to write a laugh, how to not wait for a laugh, but write it because there's a scene where the audience response, the laughter lasts for so long.

It's amazing to me that I watch the actor, I watched Santino or Andy and the girl Lucian or John Bellman here and know exactly when that moment is to to hit the next joke. Right. Right. I think Zara Mostel said when whenever they're laughing, don't move. That's just because actors will say, well, what do I do while I'm waiting for the left to stop? And I'm like, wait for the left. Exactly. OK. Yeah. This is a heightened world we're in, especially musical comedy. It's a heightened world and those rules will be accepted. People don't break out into song, you know, you're not usually in life. Sixteen hundred people are not laughing at you. We an audience will accept the fact that you're standing there waiting for them to have that reaction.

They want to. And if you go if even as an actor, if you don't allow them that, they'll stop laughing. Yeah. Because they'll they'll think they're going to miss the next line or you're not giving them permission and they will stop laughing because you're not giving them the chance to get that, to let that emotion out. And it's them participating in your craft. Right. The audience is participating in your show. You don't you don't want to wait for them to do it because they'll get mad at you for that. If you don't hear the laugh, you keep going. But you have to give them the chance to do that. Yes. Excellent. Excellent advice. OK, my last question for you, because I like I want to respond, right?

Shoes on or off, Mr. Horn. Really, besides hire Justin Guarini, what is one of the greatest lessons you've learned in your 30 some odd years in this business? Really? Yeah, yeah. I'm asking the deep questions. Cash the check fast. Yes, me too. Cash the check fast. During previous. The greatest lesson I learned is just, I don't know if it's a lesson or not, it's just don't give up. You just cannot give up. You just, there are so many times you want to give up. There are so many times you lose faith in yourself and there's so many times you just say, I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. You just cannot give up it. It can't. Listen, the truth of it is there are some people it just it never does happen.

It's just for whatever reason. But I think if you wait long enough and you keep going, it will happen. I don't know many people that some version of it may not be the version you expected, but it will happen. It just I think that's the lesson is believe in yourself. And if it's like, well, I love theater and I love acting, but I also love interior design. Please go do interior design. Yes. Go do it. Go do it. Because you have to be able, it has to be the only thing because it takes that much. It takes a life and a lifetime to be in this business. It truly does. But if there's nothing else, then you know there is nothing else. Yep. Absolutely. And that is a great place to wrap it up. I cannot think of anyone more deserving of the Tony Award.

I've enjoyed working with you so much. I've enjoyed our friendship. I in all seriousness, I know we laugh a lot and I love that, but I have. Who's this? I'm sorry. Marie, who am I talking to again? Son of a bitch. Get out of here. Son of a bitch. Marie. I don't know who that was who came. He had one arm. It was crazy. I don't know. I had a little soda can. You're very funny in that. I love being around you and I love laughing and you know what I really find, I get funnier around funny people because I have this like that little good version of ego and that good version of competition. Like I want to I want to be funny around the really funny people and you give me that opportunity and so really thank you for sitting down with me.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And so really thank you for sitting down sharing your wisdom with us. Congratulations on a well-deserved Tony Award and all the other writing awards that you got. I got to say I so appreciate you coming to have seen the show on the email that you sent afterwards. I really come see the show. I'll let you know when I'm in the city and I'm going to sit with you while you watch it. Don't stare at me the entire time. OK. With your hands on your fist. But you remember what I mean, listen, I know what you got to go. But when we did Moonshine and look, there were definitely some problems with that. And, you know, we'll learn.

But that that we the left was unbelievable. So great. Yes. That was so great. And I remember you. I would watch you just writing that. Yes. You set me up. And that was it. We were having such a good time up there. And, you know, it's like we could have talked in this interview about, you know, David Yazbek and his brilliance and, you know, all of the brilliant people that work with Tootsie. But just taking it to Moonshine, it's like with Dennis, his choreography and like it just was like it was so, so well, so well done. And we had so much fun and it was the perfect audience. It was this musical that we did in Dallas, Texas. I think it may be coming back. So, well, that's another conversation.

That's part two interview, right? I'm going to put you on the hot seat for that one. All right. Well, thank you. I really appreciate you. Great to talk to you, too, man. I wish you all the best. Have fun out there in L.A. and I'll talk to you soon. And let me know when you're back in the city. OK? OK. But you are going to tell me how to get my phone back on, right? I love that guy so much. Every time we're together, we try and out-funny one another. And, of course, he wins. That's why he's got the Tony. Hey, thank you so very much for listening to another episode of Audition Secrets. I had a really great week this past week. I did an event with Robbie Roselle at 54 Below. And I ended up not only working with Robbie, who is a fantastic guy all around, but I ended up meeting two of my most favorite podcasters, Patrick Hines and Jillian Pensivale, of course, of the True Crime Obsessed podcast.

We had so much fun. I have fallen madly in love with the two of them. If you haven't had the chance to check out True Crime Obsessed, the podcast, please do it. It is hilarious. It is binge-worthy. And you will not regret it. I promise you. OK. In the meantime, I am Justin Guarini. This is Audition Secrets, the podcast. Thank you so very much for listening. And remember, at the end of the day, you're just one audition away. Bye.