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[0:00] Justin Guarini: You know, for the past 20 years, I've been so fortunate to be working at a high level in the entertainment industry, on American Idol, on Broadway, in national television commercials, and I've kept my eyes and my ears open the entire time. And along the way, I've picked up a lot of great tricks, tips, and proven strategies. And what I've done is I've taken all the knowledge that I've gained, filtered it down to some of the best stuff and put it in my new book, Audition Secrets, Volume 1. If you do not have this book, it's very simple. All you have to do is go to AuditionSecretsBook.com and you can pick up, for a limited time, a free copy of my book. That's right. I give you proven strategies that will help increase the odds of you booking the job when you go into the audition room or creating that performance that makes people remember you, that makes you stand out. All you have to do is go to AuditionSecretsBook.com to pick up your copy today.

[1:01] Justin Guarini: All right. Welcome back to Audition Secrets, the podcast. I'm Justin Guarini, and I'm so glad you're here. Thank you very much for joining me. Today's show is going to be kind of like the format we were talking about in last week's show. It's going to be more of a quick hit. It's going to be a little bit shorter and I'm going to have a really fun guest on. But before I do that, I want to share a little story with you and talk about the subject of today's quick hit, which is the comparison trap. We all, at some point in our careers, most likely on the regular in our lives, deal with the comparison trap. And what do I mean? I have some really great friends, and a lot of them hadn't had the kind of success that I had on American Idol or on Broadway at the same time that I was having it.

They were struggling. They were trying to figure things out. And here I was flying on cloud nine with these amazing opportunities and life was good for me. Now, I still have those opportunities, but I've started a new business for myself and I've kind of put on the back burner a little bit, not a lot, my other career, my Broadway career, my singing career certainly, and the other things that I'm doing because I wanted to focus on serving my community, on writing the book Audition Secrets, on creating this podcast to serve you and to help you get to the place that you want to get to. But while all that is happening, I feel like I've kind of had to start over again. And I've talked to those friends.

I've been out and about with them. I see the people that I have worked with who were just starting out or who were sort of in this middle zone of their careers, not quite achieving the success they want. And now they're hitting. My friend who couldn't rub two nickels together is now owning two health stores because he really got into that. Another friend of mine is going and he's on series after series after series. So it's not just necessarily entertainment. It's just seeing a lot of my friends, a lot of the people who were either in the same boat as I was or who didn't quite have what I had, achieving massive amounts of success. And the whole point of what I'm saying is that can be a little bit difficult for me to see because I am in this starting over sort of place with my business where I am literally just trying to make people more aware of the fact that I am more than just a musical theater performer.

I'm more than just a singer. I am more than just this, that and the other that they've seen on television or heard on the radio or seen on Broadway. Right? And so it's hard for me not to be jealous. Really? I mean, think about it. I know you've had this experience in your life. If you're a performer or even if you're not a performer and non-performing sort of things, it's just like, we're like, man, why can't I be doing what they're doing? Why can't I own this, that or the other? Why can't I drive that car? Why can't I have those clothes? I have worked so hard, just as hard as X, Y, Z person. Why am I not in that hit show? Why haven't I won an award yet? And that is the trap that I'm talking about today.

The comparison trap. It is so easy for us to wish that we had what we see, all the people who we see out there, the shiny folks, I like to call them. It's so easy to just wish that we had that award because the excuses that I get is, oh, if I had their money, if I had their fame, if I had the awards that they've won, if I were, oh, all of a sudden just got a lead in a musical or got one of the leading roles in a TV show or whatever medium you want to work in, got a record deal, then I would be okay. That's sort of futurizing. Well, if I had this, then I would have that and everything that I want. And that is the trap that I want you to avoid and the trap that I have to work every day to avoid as well.

It's just human nature. But when you begin to look at it from a different perspective, you begin to see that, man, if you really truly had that, if the fairy godmother came and said, I grant you your wish, boom, and they hit you with the sword, the thing, the wand on top of your head, and you all of a sudden had six Grammys, or you all of a sudden had a Tony award, or you all of a sudden were the lead in a musical, a huge hit musical, and you were just plopped into that life, I guarantee you, 99.99999% of you, myself included, would screw it up royally, would destroy your lives or destroy your lives and that property, whatever it is that you're starring in or whatever you want to call it. And why?

Because there is no such thing as an overnight success. One of the big things that people beg for and will do almost anything for is money. I was in a store the other day with my wife and there was this guy on the other side of the counter who looked like a very famous singer. And my wife told him and he was like, oh my goodness, that's really sweet and kind of you. I wish I had his money. And then he went on. And I thought to myself, no, no, you don't wish you had his money. And I think it was Jim Carrey who said, I wish that everyone, just for a day, could be rich and famous. Because so many people just want a ton of money. And that's, there's a trap for me too, I'm not judging you. So many people want fame and all those things, but what you don't realize, and to finish Jim Carrey's statement, I wish everyone could be rich and famous for a day, because then they'd realize that they don't want to be rich and famous.

It is a trap. I put something up on my Instagram recently, at Justin Guarini, that said, fame is for suckers. And it really, truly is. Fame used to be that thing, that commodity that you would get, and all of a sudden you could leverage it just in amazing ways. But now, fame, while yes, you can still leverage it and do amazing things with it, is not the, it's like inflation has happened, and fame is less valuable than it used to be, right? Because anybody can be famous, get a YouTube, get an Instagram, get a Snap, get a TikTok that millions of people are following, and you have fame. Anybody can be famous, do something stupid, and you can be famous. And I mean like stupid, not like silly things that make you laugh.

I'm talking about doing something stupid that you get in news cameras. Anybody can be famous, right? So fame is not that commodity anymore. And money, you want to talk about money? More people who have tons of money that I know are the most miserable people you could ever meet. Seriously. I know you think you want to have all that money, but Biggie was right. More money, more problems. Now you arrive to most of your problems in a limousine, maybe somebody else is driving your car for you, but you have much bigger problems and more people with tons of money are more anxious and find themselves hating, wishing that they could be fired from the jobs and the amazing sort of properties that they have created.

And they become slaves to it. It's like the golden handcuffs. So getting back to my point, you think that you want this fame, you think that you want this money, you think that you want, and I do it too, that we want all these awards and all these other things, but they would set fire to our lives if we did not do what all those other people who seem like they're overnight successes, who seem like they come out of nowhere do. And that is step by step by step by step, build momentum and get used to it. Like the hot tub, you don't go jumping in the hot tub. No, you get it in you. Oh, that's warm and your toe and your foot and your leg and everything like you got to ease into it. Even with American Idol, I had been working for years, decades before that point, since I was four years old, singing, dancing, acting in plays and shows and you know, touring around the country in this, that or the other choir and working literally right before I got onto the show American Idol, I was working for a great company that still exists, Cutting Edge Entertainment in Philly, and it was a bar and bat mitzvah, DJ company and wedding company.

And I literally had to entertain 13 year olds and grandmas and parents and all these other things. If you've ever been to a bar and bat mitzvah, you know what I'm talking about. If they had a DJ with dancers and stuff, I was party pumping, I was doing all this stuff and I credit it as being one of the greatest experiences of my life. Why? Because 13 year olds are probably the most difficult audience, the hardest audience to please that you will ever come across. And don't let it be 13 year olds from moneyed families. I mean, nothing against money, but you know what I'm saying, right? There's that privilege, there's that entitlement that comes with that, with having that kind of money and not having earned it, right?

And then being a child and not knowing any better. So I credit that with being one of the most wonderful experiences for me because it was a proving ground for so much of the mud and the hard work and the having to talk to and entertain and be entertaining that would come just months later or a year later for me with American Idol. And then obviously for almost the past two decades since then.

[10:19] Justin Guarini: And so what I'd like to do to bring this back down to the comparison game is realize that all of that money, all of that fame, all of that everything that you think you want would most likely destroy your life, A. And then B, when you think about other people's careers and you're like, I wish I had that. Recognize that that is their path. Would I like to be as well known as Justin Timberlake? Sure. But I understand that his path didn't just come out of nowhere with Mickey Mouse Club. I mean, he's been doing that for so long. And then once he got out of the club and got into NSYNC, I mean, they got work. Don't even get me started on Lou Perman, but they got worked half to death. Everything that you see JT that he has now in his life, he has damn near bled for and earned it.

That was not my path. I don't know from that young age if I could have handled that. Look at how many people who earn and who are given that kind of exposure from a young age just destroy themselves or are destroyed by the industry. And one of the things that I love most about Justin, besides the fact that he is one of the nicest human beings you could ever possibly meet, is the fact that he has truly earned everything he has. And he's not just a singer. He's not just a dancer. He's an amazing producer. He's an amazing songwriter. I know I'm going off about Justin Timberlake. But the whole point is, is that that was not my path. Most of the people that you want to have their life or their money or whatever, that is not your path.

And most likely, if you had to walk down that path, you would trip and stumble and fall over the place. I want you to focus on your path. Instead of saying, oh, gosh, I want that. I want all of that. Focus more on how can I emulate, be like them? How can I find out more about their journey and what it is that they did? How can I role model the choices that they made and make those kinds of choices in my life and in my career? Then you begin to walk down your version of that path. And you might not win an award. You might not get the

[12:40] Justin Guarini: Or have tons of money, but you are not wasting energy comparing yourself and your life to a life that you will never have. Because you can't have that life, that other person's, that other whatever, that you'll never have it. And it's a trap. It's BS. You can have your own version of that. But you can never, ever experience what those people that you hold upon high have experienced. And also, it's just such a losing game. You can't beat yourself up. You can. It just, I mean, you can. It just sucks. It doesn't do you any good. And beating yourself up is just like I've spoken about before. It's like if we take the audition room, bringing it back to Audition Secrets, you know, if you beat yourself up, if you're saying, oh, I'll never be this, I'll never do that.

If you disempower yourself when you walk into the room or even when you walk onto the stage, if you already got a job, it's like walking into the room or onto the stage with a huge Santa-sized sack on your back full of hot garbage. Worse, you take that hot garbage and before you start singing, before you start acting, before you start performing, you put it down between yourself and the people on the other side of the table or between yourself and the audience. And everybody smells it. They may not realize that they smell it, but it's there and you carry it with you. And then what? You're going to sing, act, dance, perform through a steaming hot pile of garbage? It's all that energy, all that negative crap that you bring into the room.

You don't have to do that. Do not fall into the comparison trap because it is a losing game. Focus on your path and focus on emulating, finding your version of the choices. And you can create your own unique choices as long as you avoid the comparison trap. All right, that was today's quick hit, Avoiding the Comparison Trap. Up next, I have a bit of the interview that I did with Tony Award nominee and star of The Prom on Broadway, Caitlin Kinnunen. Caitlin Kinnunen is an American actress and singer who's best known for playing Emma Nolan in the musical The Prom, for which she was nominated for a Tony Award in 2019, this past year. She made her Broadway debut at age 16 as a replacement in Spring Awakening.

And in 2010, she was understudied for the role of Natalie in the national tour of Next to Normal. She has had a phenomenal career. She's been in everything from Younger on TV Land, American Vandal on Netflix, and Cinemax and NBC, all kinds of shows, Law and Order, of course. And she's a wonderful human being, as well as a phenomenal performer. So here's a little sneak peek at my interview with the lovely and talented Caitlin Kinnunen. One of the questions I love to ask people is about their origin story. What was that moment? What was it that made you say, I want to do theater? I want to be a performer.

[15:33] Caitlin Kinnunen: I feel like my origin story is like so boring. It's always been what I do. I started doing theater when I was three years old. I have an older sister, and my mom enrolled her in like a theater camp because she didn't want her to be afraid of public speaking. And so I just like followed in my sister's footsteps and started doing theater with her. And so I did classes. I did summer camps. I did like local community theater. And I just grew up in that environment. My mom did the sets and costumes. My sister was in it. I was in it too. My dad just like watched from the sidelines and was like, go kids. And so it just has always been a part of my life. And so I grew up in that. I then got my first professional show when I was 11.

Yeah, I worked in the Seattle theater community starting at 11. And then when I was 15, I went to an open call for the tour of Spring Awakening, ended up getting callbacks for that, and then moved to New York to be in the Broadway production of Spring Awakening when I was 16, and then just kind of kept going. It's just always been in my bones, and there's never really been another option.

[17:03] Justin Guarini: Right. You really are truly a Broadway baby, aren't you?

[17:04] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yes.

[17:04] Justin Guarini: Without a doubt. That's awesome. I mean, it's just so interesting to hear different people's stories. I know that I went and I saw a show and I was so blown away. And there was something that resonated inside me. Whether it's theater, I went to see a theater show. And I'll never forget seeing Phantom of the Opera, like the old banger Phantom of the Opera. And there was this moment where the Phantom is singing, I think it's the reprise of All I Ask of You. And at the very end, there's these flames that come out of the stage. And I will never forget the feeling of the heat washing over me, and me just being so stunned because it was a blackout. And as the blackout happened, the heat washed over me. And it literally was like that moment where I was like, oh, this is what I'm supposed to do.

[17:52] Caitlin Kinnunen: That's so magical.

[17:54] Justin Guarini: It really was magical. And it becomes a very challenging road from that point. But how do you think that you kept your head together? How do you think you kept your priorities straight, being so young in the theater?

[18:10] Caitlin Kinnunen: I have an amazing family. I was very blessed and very lucky that I have the people I have. My parents have been supportive of me and my sister from day one. And they have always let both of us pursue our passions and follow our dreams. And being in it from such an early age, there's so much potential for me to become a crazy person, which I kind of did. But my mom really kept me grounded. And she would come into like any rehearsal process I was doing. And she would speak to like stage management and my dressers and be like, if she ever gives you shit, tell me. And she would say, she would then say to me, she'd be like, if I ever hear that you're causing shit, you're done. And so I just like that. I don't know, she kind of instilled this work ethic in me that like, you show up, you do good work, you be a good human, and you can keep going.

[19:14] Justin Guarini: Yeah, that's great. Boundaries, work ethic is amazing. And it's amazing, because I'll do the same thing with my children. My children are six, eight and 14. And they have, my 14 year old certainly does, but my six and eight year old boys have no concept of financial value and what it takes to the investment that children are in the investment that whatever it is that they want to do, their passions are. And so I will tell my sons, okay, look, I will get you this, like, for example, if they want like, a skateboard or like some sort of tech or some piece of something. That's okay. Yeah, you can have that. But in one week, you need to do X, Y, and Z, you need to get to this sort of benchmark, or else I'm going to take it away from you.

And yeah, being able to give my kids that stuff, maybe some things that I wasn't able to have is so great. But at the same time, I want to instill in them the value of that and the fact that they have to respect it. And I'm so glad that your mother instilled that in you and was supportive of you. Both your parents were supportive of you and your sister. You know, you're very open, especially now about your sexuality, and especially since your amazing run in The Prom. So what I want to know is, I'm going to assume that your parents were very supportive of that. Right?

[20:37] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yes.

[20:38] Justin Guarini: Okay, good. Good. Yes. Seattle progressive. Great. And yeah, great. Good. Good. And bless you, because there are so many people in our community and in our country who don't have that support. But what did the kiss and correct me if I'm wrong, was it the first same sex kiss? The Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade broadcasted everywhere.

[21:03] Caitlin Kinnunen: It was the first same sex kiss that they had ever shown. And that was a huge deal. What did that mean to you personally? Besides like, hey, we're finally moving the ball forward a bit. And then how did you cope with the bit of a backlash that came from that?

[21:19] Caitlin Kinnunen: Yeah, it's so the whole thing is so interesting to me. And I have to acknowledge that like, I came out, and I say, come, I say came out. And that makes it sound like a very large deal. To me, it wasn't really a big deal. It just always kind of been who I am, my close friends kind of knew. And so it just, it didn't feel like a moment for me. It's just something that I needed to acknowledge. Because I had youth across America looking up to me and seeing that, like, oh, well, she identifies as straight, but she's playing a lesbian character. And it's like, no, actually, like, I'm not straight. But like, I have to acknowledge that I am very privileged in that, like, there were a few people who, like commented on my bravery for coming out.

And it was like, I'm not brave. You know, I'm a privileged cis white woman who has a supportive family, I didn't need to worry that my parents would still accept me or not. All of my friends still do. And so that wasn't a big deal for me. And so the kiss on the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade was interesting, because like, I am surrounded by this very liberal bubble, you know, that is supportive and is inclusive, and is just like, okay with that. So like going into it, Izzy and I who played my girlfriend in the show, like, it wasn't that big of a deal for us. It was just like part of our show. It was what we do. Love is love. And it's just like this wonderful moment in the show. And it wasn't until we got to the rehearsal for the parade, that our director Casey Nicholaw came up to us and was like, this is the first same sex kiss that they have ever shown.

This is a big deal that it like hit us. And we were like, Oh, my God, that's a huge deal. Because middle America is seeing this for the first time. And there are families and kids and people who will be affected by this. And so then it really like took this turn of like, Oh, my gosh, what we are doing is so important. And this is so cool that we get to be a part of this and share this. And just like showing that representation on that platform to say, No, this is what families can look like. This is what love looks like. It's not a big deal. It's just a kiss between two people who love each other. And so yeah, we got a lot of backlash for it. We got a lot of people saying that it's not okay.

It's not. It just shouldn't be a thing. And it was weird and strange. But what was so special about it is that for all of the backlash we got, we got 10 times the amount of support and love and people coming forward and saying, Thank you. We feel seen we feel heard. We're so glad that this happened. And now our families can have a conversation about it over Thanksgiving dinner, instead of ignoring it and not talking about it. So it was a really cool and like incredible thing to be a part of, as was like the whole experience of prom, you know?

[24:17] Justin Guarini: Well, there you have it. That was a sneak peek of my interview with Caitlin Kinnunen. Thank you so very much to Caitlin for stopping by. Thank you very much for listening. If you want to hear the rest of that interview, it'll be available soon in a new place called the Audition Secrets Vault. I'll tell you how to get there next week. But for now, I want you to go to auditionsecretsbook.com and pick up Audition Secrets Volume One if you haven't done it already, so that you can get the tips, tricks, and all the wisdom that I have gained over the past almost 20 years in this business so that you can increase the odds of booking your next audition, increase the odds of standing out, and you know what?

Increase the odds of having more fun and walking into the room with a mindset and a belief system that serves you. Oh, there's so much great stuff in the book. You got to check it out. But in the meantime, I am Justin Guarini. This has been Audition Secrets. Thank you so very much for listening.