This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Teresa Attridge: Ever wonder what it takes to make a new musical sing?

[0:25] Pauls Macs: Our mission is to make the exclusive inclusive.

[0:28] Teresa Attridge: We are interviewing the creatives who are changing musical theater one 11 o'clock number at a time. This is your Backstage Pass.

[0:43] Pauls Macs: Hello everyone. Welcome to Backstage Pass. We are so excited to talk about another fantastic new musical, Spectrum, and we're so excited to welcome Stephanie L. Carlin.

[0:52] Stephanie L. Carlin: Hey, Stephanie.

[0:53] Pauls Macs: Hi.

[0:54] Stephanie L. Carlin: Glad to be here.

[0:55] Pauls Macs: Applause, applause. How are you doing today?

[0:57] Stephanie L. Carlin: I'm good. You know, just a casual Wednesday afternoon.

[1:01] Pauls Macs: An ordinary Wednesday, some might say. Well, we had a wonderful time reviewing this piece. New York Theater Barn has helped develop Spectrum. We want to talk with you more about how it was developed, its path forward. I'm going to go ahead and read your bio just so everybody knows how fantastic you are.

[1:15] Pauls Macs: Stephanie L. Carlin is an autistic composer, writer, sound designer, and orchestrator based in New York City, New York. She is currently developing Spectrum, a queer neurodiverse musical comedy, which was presented at New York Theater Barn's 17th annual New Work Series, and will be developed with the Fire Island Pines Arts Project. As a sound designer, she recently designed for Until Dark, Fry Bread Queen, and co-designed 20-Sided Tavern at Broadway Playhouse in Chicago. As a composer, she has scored Two Anxious Bisexuals, which was selected for the 2022 Cannes Short Film Festival. She is an alum of the BMI Lehman Engel Musical Theater Workshop and Berklee College of Music. She is always willing to discover, write, and create shows that everyone can enjoy.

[1:56] Teresa Attridge: Your final line of your bio is just so inspiring, I tear up a little bit, because theater should be for everyone.

[2:02] Stephanie L. Carlin: You really should, because that's how I was brought into it, you know what I mean? I was literally brought in open arms, because growing up, it was so hard to find a niche for someone like me. When you're autistic, you're always looking for a sense of structure, in a similar way to as a kid. No one really explains everything for you in the book of life, nobody literally sits you down and is like, here are all the ways to engage a human being, because that's not how human beings work. For me, when I found music and theater, it was just a way for me to synthesize everything in a way that was so personal, but also specific and universal, in many ways.

[2:34] Stephanie L. Carlin: My favorite musical is Company, mainly because I accidentally listened to it at 11 years old.

[2:39] Pauls Macs: I shouldn't have listened to it at 11 years old.

[2:41] Stephanie L. Carlin: No, that's the perfect age.

[2:42] Pauls Macs: My judgment is not the best, however.

[2:45] Stephanie L. Carlin: Being alive, it literally gave me this epiphany moment, wow, nobody really knows what they're doing. And that's okay.

[2:52] Pauls Macs: It's so okay.

[2:53] Stephanie L. Carlin: And nobody knows what they're doing. And I questioned my sexuality for like a decade afterwards, but besides that, it really just helped ground me in realizing that I knew what I wanted to do, as long as I just kept a cool head about it and was myself in the best way that it could be, then it didn't really matter how mean people were, I could just keep going.

[3:10] Pauls Macs: Well, for what it's worth from your bio, I think you're so rad. And I can't wait to connect more after this, between D&D and musical theater, like we're right here.

[3:17] Stephanie L. Carlin: Oh, oh, yes, absolutely. That show in particular was so fun. I created something like over 200 sound effects for that show alone.

[3:25] Pauls Macs: I just have to say the listeners can't see. But when you said Company, Teresa lost it.

[3:30] Teresa Attridge: We frequently talked about being alive in that moment.

[3:36] Pauls Macs: Or the one time Teresa and I have met in real life for ramen. We talked a lot about Company.

[3:41] Stephanie L. Carlin: So it's a frequent connection for us.

[3:43] Pauls Macs: Well, hold on a second, because I feel like autistic people are gonna get mad at me. I would say my favorite adult musical is Company. My favorite children's musical is On This Island.

[3:53] Stephanie L. Carlin: You're saying all the right things.

[3:55] Pauls Macs: And my favorite show that features queer storytelling is Falsettos.

[4:00] Stephanie L. Carlin: Oh my gosh, you know that's Joe's favorite musical.

[4:04] Pauls Macs: Like Falsettos and Cabaret are like here, neck and neck with each other so much.

[4:08] Stephanie L. Carlin: But to be honest, I feel like Cabaret is the best adaptation, honestly.

[4:11] Pauls Macs: I cannot emphasize enough that you really came in here to have only correct opinions.

[4:16] Stephanie L. Carlin: We're best friends.

[4:18] Pauls Macs: This is amazing.

[4:19] Stephanie L. Carlin: We're best friends.

[4:20] Pauls Macs: Oh my gosh.

[4:22] Stephanie L. Carlin: Best friends, best friends.

[4:24] Pauls Macs: Yes, this is fantastic. Stephanie, I just want to say thank you for sharing your perspective. I came to your piece as someone who knows honestly very little about autism.

[4:33] Stephanie L. Carlin: One thing that I appreciate about theater, you know, theater should be for everyone. It should be inclusive. I share that value. But I learned so much. For example, the song we'll listen to later, In Between, the metaphor of a space. You look between a person's eyes. You can be like, oh, I'm making eye contact with them.

[4:47] Stephanie L. Carlin: I didn't even know that making eye contact could be difficult for people with autism spectrum.

[4:53] Pauls Macs: Oh, it's incredibly difficult.

[4:55] Stephanie L. Carlin: I don't quite know how to explain it other than just playing In Between. There's such a sense of nervousness that I feel from it. And it's not necessarily the other person like is going at it intensely. But it's the sense of like someone is so driven and so forward that I feel like I just don't know what I'm doing.

[5:10] Stephanie L. Carlin: When I look in between somebody's eyeballs, with FYI, a social worker taught me when I was a child. That was a quick and easy way to do that. Because I need to fake eye contact every single day of my life in order to just function. But for me, it's the sense that this person really wants to know me and to get to know me. But I haven't really gotten a chance to know them yet.

[5:29] Stephanie L. Carlin: In the sense that like I just need a second to get into seeing somebody, get into knowing somebody. And that's really hard when you're just talking to somebody who is completely off the cuff. Or especially if you're networking. That's where I feel it the most is when you're networking.

[5:40] Stephanie L. Carlin: And the song In Between, I wrote it before there even was a show. I wrote it like way before there even was a show. I needed a ballad for BMI, I'll be honest. I'd never written a ballad before at that point. I usually write comedy songs. But I had been to this concert for a partner of mine who was, and probably still is, a guitarist.

[6:01] Stephanie L. Carlin: And he was in a metal band. It was just a loud venue. It was a very spacey venue. And I remember I was trying to talk to this girl who wanted to be the band's manager. I was just like, just go up to her. Talk to her. Pitch a partner. Be a good partner. Just say something. Just talk and say something.

[6:17] Stephanie L. Carlin: But I just, I couldn't. And I actually ended up leaving early. And it wasn't anybody's fault. There was nothing anybody could do. Because it's literally just my brain, my head. That's the thing that I really want people to take away from this show. Is that accessibility is not a perfect concept. Not everybody is going to be in a space and be completely comfortable. That's just not possible.

[6:37] Stephanie L. Carlin: But the thing that we can do is, at the very least, listen to each other and hear what each other have to say. And hopefully, from that, find some form of peace that makes sense for a majority of people.

[6:46] Pauls Macs: I don't know everybody, but a majority of people.

[6:48] Stephanie L. Carlin: I was talking a little bit about this before we pressed the record button. But the most recent experience I had that really taught me a lot about accessibility is I directed a production of Newsies. Through that process, especially when there's a character who's named Crutchie.

[7:02] Stephanie L. Carlin: So often, Crutchie has been played by able-bodied actors. What I quickly realized, it does not feel right for an able-bodied actor to play this role anymore. We just can't do it.

[7:11] Pauls Macs: No.

[7:11] Stephanie L. Carlin: And fun fact, only 27 shows on Broadway total have featured disabled characters and or disabled themes.

[7:20] Pauls Macs: Only 27, including a very recent one that played this past season being How to Dance in Ohio.

[7:25] Stephanie L. Carlin: Absolutely. But so every day, we would do an Access Realities check-in. What we had in the cast was people, for example, who identified as neurodivergent or had movement challenges or had visual impairment. We all learned a lot, and we didn't get it right every day for sure.

[7:42] Stephanie L. Carlin: But through that communication and the grace of the actors we were working with, they were so wonderful and gracious to us as we were learning. And as you said, that communication between us, we all learned so much, especially from them.

[7:53] Pauls Macs: That's all we can ask for is to learn from each other and communicate and find some form of peace.

[7:57] Stephanie L. Carlin: Pun also intended but not on the other side of the spectrum of accessibility in theater. So my sister is also autistic, but she has very, very high support needs. So she requires 24-hour care. She lives in a home.

[8:09] Stephanie L. Carlin: And I remember when we were really little, my mom took us to the theater all the time. We would go see Beauty and the Beast and Bye Bye Birdie and stuff that we could go see. And one of my earliest memories of being in a theater is actually we went to go see Beauty and the Beast when we were six or seven.

[8:24] Stephanie L. Carlin: My sister was just watching the show. She was really excited. She was rocking. She was stimming. She was having a really good time. At intermission, the couple in front of us turned around and they just like tore my mother apart about it. They were like, how dare you? She shouldn't be in a public place. Why would you bring her here?

[8:39] Pauls Macs: No.

[8:39] Stephanie L. Carlin: And it was very traumatic. And I remember I was really young and was very upset. I remember speaking up about it being like, oh, well, she's autistic, so she can't help it. And they were like, well, why is she here? And my mom was like, we're not engaging with you about this.

[8:51] Stephanie L. Carlin: And so we went to the theater or we went to an usher and we were like, hi, we're having a problem here. And they moved our seats. They apologized. We got refunded. But I remember being really young. And that was the moment I remember being like, oh, there are spaces that are supposed to be for everyone. But there are plenty of people who believe we don't get to occupy that space.

[9:10] Pauls Macs: Right.

[9:11] Stephanie L. Carlin: And one of the reasons I got into theater was because of that experience and the intention of making sure that art is accessible for everyone. And, of course, while it's in a very different way, I was very excited to read this piece and that there are autistic creators out here who are making everything not only more accessible, but more equitable.

[9:29] Pauls Macs: Yes.

[9:30] Stephanie L. Carlin: And I also have to say, this is not the only piece. In the same vein that How to Dance in Ohio is not the only autistic piece out there. There are plenty that are in development right now. There's Indigo by Scott Evan Davis, Jake Ho, and Lorenzo Fion, who are writing about a nonverbal autistic teen.

[9:45] Stephanie L. Carlin: There's Newton's Cradle that was performed at Nymph back in 2017 by Kim and Heath Saunders. There's The Chosen One, which is written by my friend Mo Yeh and Eli Cohen, that all feature autistic and disabled characters and themes. They're all being developed and they're all out there. It's just a matter of giving us the time of day and letting us learn.

[10:04] Pauls Macs: And so I'm grateful for your theater in that sense. It's now the perfect opportunity to talk about your development. You talked about writing In Between for Needin' a Ballad, for BMI. But how did you come to develop the entire piece of Spectrum? I'd love to hear that story.

[10:17] Stephanie L. Carlin: Yeah, of course. I mean, I was very connected with that song. Of course, it was this piece of me. And there was always this instance of wanting to write about autism because for a long time, it really felt like it was hard to voice my opinions and voice my feelings. And through music and theater, it was therapy to help me get my creative self out there.

[10:36] Stephanie L. Carlin: And so for me, I was like, I need to find a way to talk about this in a way that makes sense with the people I grew up with. And the people that I grew up with and grew up around were conservatives, gays, and trans people all over as someone who is not conservative.

[10:52] Stephanie L. Carlin: Gay and gender nonconforming. That was very informative for me for that, but it helped me a lot because for a lot of my life, there were people that felt like they knew me, even though they saw the disability first, if that makes sense, where they had to talk to me slowly, or they didn't want to approach me, or they kind of did it out of pity. But these were people that literally were like, you're just as stupid as us, and that's totally cool. And we'll treat you as an equal, no matter what, we will read you, all of that. I wanted to like include those characters in some way. And it wasn't until I want to say 2022, I became single, I was like exploring some queer spaces, because I didn't get a chance to do that.

I was with a man for about seven years, he was accepting of my byness, but he didn't really want me to act on it in any way, if that makes sense. So I was relatable. So I was like, this is the perfect opportunity to just be gay and stupid. So I went down to I'll shout out Henrietta Hudson's in the city here, because it was something that was recommended to me. And literally, the routine would be as follows. I would wait outside for 20 to 30 minutes, because straight people, I would walk in, I would get my drink, and then I would leave because I didn't know what I was doing. For a lot of it, it was just you know, it was very overstimulating in the sense that for some reason, every queer bar or gay bar has a disco ball for no reason.

For no reason. Like literally, everybody could just be sitting down and like sadly drinking and there would just be a disco ball hanging overhead. I don't understand it. I don't. On top of that, there are people yelling at me to get drinks. There are people trying to hit on me. And there are people like touching me and I'm just like, and literally, I remember like the fourth or fifth time the bartender came up to me and I was so overstimulated. This happens to me sometimes. I just couldn't talk. I just couldn't say anything. I was trying to mouth the words and it could it did not happen. And she literally she looks at me, she comes with me, puts her hand on her and just goes, hon, it's okay, you're safe here.

Not fully realizing what was happening. I recognize that but I was able to from that actually make my order because it made me realize in a kind of weird way that there's nothing wrong with me. All the people in my life that told me that I needed to look a certain way, act a certain way, whether it be because of my queerness, because they thought I didn't know any better with my disability. All of that didn't matter because I could just come into a space and just get a drink like anybody else. And that's really what I ultimately wanted the piece to be is just bringing in my friends and family and saying thank you. Thank you for helping me out.

[13:08] Teresa Attridge: That's really beautiful. I love that. I want to make sure to get the synopsis so people can see how that connects. Spectrum features a book, music, and lyrics by Stephanie L. Carlin and is directed by Kate Trammell. It follows Matthew, a young man on the autism spectrum who has just been told he needs to move out of his parents' place. He finds the quietest spot with no stimulation whatsoever, a gay bar, which is like such a great, like a very short synopsis. But as soon as I heard that, I was like, oh, this is going to be so wonderful. And I'm so intrigued. But a young person who's looking for a refuge or a safe place or a home who needs to find acceptance. And it's kind of a joke. He finds the quietest spot with no stimulation whatsoever, which is a huge challenge in the play for him. But also a gay bar, which in the gay bars I've been, some of the most accepting, wonderful places that I've ever attended. That's such a beautiful idea for a musical.

[14:04] Stephanie L. Carlin: Yeah. And it was so funny. At Newark's, there were people that came out to me and were literally like, isn't this a terrible idea? Like, isn't this something you don't want to happen? Why would you want to go in such an overstimulating place? And I had to explain to them, well, there are people who are willing to meet you halfway. And usually it's at a gay bar. Oftentimes, if I just go to a bar, if I go to, I guess, a straight bar, quote unquote, in the city, people are just there to just drink and not deal with anybody's business. Gay bars, we recognize that everybody's having a terrible time. Everybody's having a terrible time, like awful, whether it be a day job, not going well, a bad breakup, just laws or whatever coming out that are terrible for everybody, but particularly bad for LGBTQ people. We can all come together and listen to Donna Summer and be content.

[14:44] Teresa Attridge: It brings up a really interesting point about people's assumptions about autism and autistic people, right? Because not everyone is hypersensitive to sound. Some people are hypersensitive. It's interesting that people are immediately like, isn't this a bad idea? Based on which stereotype that you saw in a movie, like, what are you saying? When people talk about it being a spectrum, there's a spectrum of needs, and then there's a spectrum of related traits, right? And I feel like people want to cookie cutter. If they met one autistic person, they're like, oh, well, now I understand everyone. Awareness is really helpful, but supposed mastery of something you just found out about is not.

[15:15] Stephanie L. Carlin: Yeah, it's weird that the thing that ostracized me and traumatized me for a long time because of how other people perceived it is suddenly trending. That's the thing that's weird for me. But also to call back to what you were talking about with your sister, I love that you use the term high support needs because that's the other thing with autism is that there's a lot of terminology going around that people are not really sure what's right or what's wrong. And so I, the one autistic person, contend that that is correct. High support needs is referring to somebody who needs a lot of aids, a lot of time living with somebody, whereas low support needs, like me, maybe I need some accessibility aids, like fidget toys and stuff like that, maybe.

But both of us, still autistic. There's no such thing as high functioning or low functioning. That's related to capitalism. We don't even need to go there. When we talk about levels of support needs, I think that's actually a great segue into talking about Matthew as a character, right? Because in the show, the initial thing that happens, the crux of what's going on is that Matthew's parents think it's time for Matthew to move out of the house until they seek the next level of independence. You know, we have a song establishing sort of his routine and what he likes to do during the day, his relationship with his mom and his stepdad. So I was wondering when you were creating the character of Matthew, was it something that came organically from your own experiences?

Did you need to sort of grow that character from his own nexus and decide where he was in terms of his support needs? Like how do you go about writing another autistic person that is similar or dissimilar from yourself?

[16:39] Stephanie L. Carlin: So with Matthew, I think for a lot of it, I worked around because to be honest, a lot of this piece was written out of anger in some ways. That's what my mentor always likes to talk about whenever we talk about this piece. And for me, I just thought about all of the ways in which people saw me when they heard that I was autistic in some way. And for most people, when they think of an autistic person, they think of a scrawny little guy, a scrawny little guy who likes to keep to himself, play puzzles, play games, and who's really obsessed with STEM and space. And for me, I also always thought that no one really had a clear level or idea for what level of support I did need to the point where I didn't know what I needed at all.

A couple of years ago, it didn't really take until me starting this piece where I was like, oh, I need earplugs all the time. I need shades when I go to a theater because I don't know these things. Research in autism, it's not super extensive. It's not. I mean, we just started calling it autism spectrum a little over a decade ago. A lot of this stuff is very new, but for me with Matthew, I took it from myself, but then I also took it from, there's a lot of characters in media in a similar way that there are queer coded characters. There's also autistic coded characters. And for me, finding what the story was going to be about, I researched a lot of those characters because I'm like, how do people see autism?

Because nobody knows what it is. Nobody really understands it. There has to be some representation out there and there is, and it's weird. It's like all over the place. It's very interesting to hear about in this context, like how people are reacting to when they realize, oh, this is meant to be an autistic character in some way. I took from myself, but I also took from that.

[18:15] Teresa Attridge: Do you have any examples just out of curiosity?

[18:17] Stephanie L. Carlin: I feel like the top one everyone goes to is Sheldon Cooper from the Big Bang Theory and I don't blame them. For me, I recognize how great of an actor Jim Parsons is. We could also talk about other autistic coded characters in theater. There are three to come to mind, but to be honest, I really like one of them out of the three, one of them being Evan Hansen. I think it's weird that he's autistic coded because to be honest, I don't think an obsession with trees necessarily makes someone autistic coded. But granted, he does like repeatedly say yes to things, even though he knows that they're wrong and it builds up his anxiety throughout the show. So that part I can understand is autistic coded. One of my favorites is George Surratt as an autistic coded character in the sense that he literally can only speak in like his painting, in anything in the world as painting, only to realize by the end of act one, oh, I had a girlfriend. Oh no. Relatable, honestly.

[19:07] Teresa Attridge: Oh, oh no. I had the love of my life and I, oh no.

[19:12] Stephanie L. Carlin: Her name was Dot. It was right there.

[19:14] Teresa Attridge: Literally Dot, yeah.

[19:14] Stephanie L. Carlin: It was right there. It was literally Dot. Her name was literally Dot. And then the third one, which I was grateful when I did this piece to talk to the actor about my autism with Matilda because Matilda, that song she has, Quiet, was a piece that I looked at when I was writing In Between because it's literally when I just need a place to myself, when I'm desensitizing, when I'm just trying to escape it all, that is what it is.

[19:38] Teresa Attridge: I have a lot of neurodiverse friends who feel the same way about Quiet. And also, frankly, everybody should talk about the fact that neurodivergent people do in fact have psychic powers and we will use them.

[19:48] Stephanie L. Carlin: Yes.

[19:48] Teresa Attridge: Be aware, everyone.

[19:50] Stephanie L. Carlin: Be aware.

[19:52] Teresa Attridge: Can I just say that I'm really fascinated by the fact that you used the word angry to describe this piece.

[19:58] Stephanie L. Carlin: As I was reading the word, I was thinking of like, this piece is gentle. I found a gentleness in this piece because I wrote down this line. Cynthia says this to Matthew about the queer community and being in the gay bar. Yeah, nobody here fits in. So naturally we all do. And to echo the experience that you had for someone who's looking for community and the time they need it most to be accepted into that gay bar is truly beautiful.

[20:20] Teresa Attridge: I don't want to spoil the entire show, but the way in which Matthew, through challenges, becomes such an integrated, valued part of that community is truly beautiful. It might just be interesting to you to know that a piece that was written out of anger had the opposite feeling as I was absorbing it.

[20:35] Stephanie L. Carlin: No, I know.

[20:36] Teresa Attridge: Yeah.

[20:36] Stephanie L. Carlin: And, you know, honestly, as I kept developing the piece with people and stuff like that, I found that there was a lot of joy in it that people were finding in it. And I was very surprised in that because, again, I kind of wrote it as this angry piece. But I remember I did an Act 1 reading of it back in October with my lovely director, Kate Trammell, who could not join us here today. But I just want to say I love her. But we did an Act 1 reading. And I remember one of the first, like, the two interactions I remember was Adam B. Shapiro and Laura Setti, who play the parents of Matthew, came up to me like 10-year-olds and were just like, oh, my God, what happens next? Like, oh, my God, please tell us what happens next.

Literally, like, begging me. And I was just like, I guess I can send a synopsis. I don't know. Because I just wanted to make sure that everything in Act 1 was placed well. But then the other interaction that I love personally was from Brian Ernesto Manhevar, I believe is how you pronounce his last name, who is in Equity. All three of them are in Equity. But if you don't know, listeners, for an Equity showcase code, at least the one that we were using, we are not allowed to tell them to bring in costume pieces at all. They can only bring in a black shirt and jeans. That's kind of what their MO is to wear. And we had a stage manager to confirm this and make sure everything was OK. But Brian was insistent that the character of.

[21:44] Stephanie L. Carlin: I was a quote-unquote boots gay, and he really wanted me to see that physically. So he's like, I have a pair of, I think, nine-inch boots, is what he had. And he was like, can I bring them in? Like, he asked me, like, can I bring them in to show you? And I was like, I guess? Let me check with Madison, who's the stage manager, and she was like, he can do whatever he wants, that's fine. And sure enough, he brought them in. And wow, yeah, I wrote that into the show. I could not write that into the show in any way. It was just so impactful. And again, came from a place of joy, and really well-intentionedness. It's surprising, in particular, what people's reactions have been to the show. But that's one that always, like, sticks out to me. It would be fantastic. I mean, you already did a bit, but is there any other thing that you want to say or intro for In Between?

[22:26] Yes. So this is the first time that Matthew actually goes into the gay bar. He doesn't go out much. He is not familiar with spaces like this at all. So he's very much in his head, hearing and seeing and feeling all of the things, and he's already ready to go. But sadly, he sees this cute girl that he wants to talk to, and he remembers a piece of advice that his mom gave him when he wants to talk to somebody. That's all I'll say to that.

[22:50] All right, here's In Between, performed by Laura Settey, Emmett Smith, Mel Schaefer, Alec Vaughn, and Sox Whitmore.

[23:11] ♪ Musical number: "In Between" — performed by Laura Settey, Emmett Smith, Mel Schaefer, Alec Vaughn, and Sox Whitmore ♪

[27:05] Stephanie L. Carlin: That piece is incredible. And as I was listening to it at first, the piano progression is haunting. And it gave me such an insight into that experience of what it is. I think I said earlier, I didn't know that it was difficult often for an autistic person to look someone directly in the eye. That's the power of a musical, right? Is suddenly that experience was communicated to me in a way that I'm not sure I could have fully understood with just words.

[27:43] Yeah. And I noticed that whenever I write for Matthew in terms of song, he's also so very poetic in his phrasing, but it definitely makes sense to him in a way, if that helps at all. Explain my brain a bit. But yeah, because for me, I always have to like, you know, take a second and give myself this moment where I just have to focus and I have to go, even if I don't want to in any sense. And it's not to say that when I look somebody directly in the eye, I'm not enjoying myself. There are some times when I'm totally fine and absolutely okay. But there are just these moments in my life where I just really, I know I have to connect with people. I'm a social animal like anybody else. And I have to keep going and keep working and keep doing my best. And if I'm lucky, there can be somebody in my life who's like, oh, you're autistic. You don't have to look me in the eye. I'm like, oh, thank God. And I just go to my own devices and just talk about Pokemon or whatever.

[28:36] Yeah, never asked me how am I if you first see me like in the next two weeks? I will never know how to answer. It's just so vague. Ask me about the latest Pokemon release and I'll probably have an answer. There you go.

[28:45] Well, I asked you how you were when you first came into this podcast. Thank you for your grace.

[28:51] I have I have a go to answer for that.

[28:53] No, it's one of those things with asking like really vague open ended questions and stuff. My partner is also neurodivergent. We talk a lot about helpful questions versus not helpful questions like if we're talking about stuff, but at the same time, how to ask questions in a way that doesn't feel condescending. I think people often ask questions of neurodivergent people as if they're children. It's very belittling where it's like, OK, do you want to go here or do you want to go here? And they think they're being helpful, but it's really not helpful at all.

[29:26] Another thing that I had to make sure was a thing in this piece is that it is for adults because the amount of disability media that is for children, I understand. I understand why it exists is to show children that these people exist and they're like everybody else. And I think that's beautiful. I think that's wonderful. But the fact that it's the only thing it feels like sometimes, that's what's really annoying and disappointing because we still exist. We still exist. We're still persisting in the world and we still deal with adult things and adult emotions. And for me, in navigating this piece, like adulthood and maturity was something I wanted to talk about because people truly talk to me like I'm a child sometimes.

And I don't understand it. Not all autistic people are the same. There are some that have audio processing issues where it may take them a second to answer something. But again, that doesn't mean we aren't going to get to the next spot. That doesn't mean we're not going to be able to answer you. That doesn't mean we're going to approach it in a childish way. We're just trying to communicate with you and approach you like the adults that we are.

[30:25] I never really understood growing up why that was such a thing. After so many points when I would have so many meltdowns, people just started talking to me like that and I could not stand it. It's very telling that the first reaction people have is not just to be patient. Like you can give someone extra like three or four seconds to answer a question versus immediately leaping in and being like, oh, I need to soften. I need to adjust. I need time. Like you could wait and just take the cue from the person you're actually talking to.

[30:49] I feel like people do that really well with Matthew actually at the gay bar. When Matthew goes nonverbal, they're very good about being like, okay, how about this? Like they give a solution as a question versus people don't simper. Pearl does a little, but like, you know, the way that mothers can and often do regardless of who you are. But I really appreciate what you were saying about wanting to explore adulthood and being treated like an adult in a world that often wants to infantilize. It's like very clear on the page. There's a beautiful moment between Theo and Matthew. Matthew has this breakdown. I believe he goes essentially nonverbal. He's outside. He's outside Second Avenue, the gay bar for those who need that info.

But he's outside the gay bar and Theo comes to check in on him and is trying different ways. It's like, can you talk or can you share right now? But the way that he tries to just follow his cues and find him where he needs to be at is truly beautiful. It feels like it's coming from the experience of someone who probably didn't get that same respect themselves.

[31:51] Yeah, for me that actually for the first time happened to me like about a year ago when I was like in the middle of having a meltdown and it came to me from another queer neurodivergent person who luckily enough got to play Theo in the reading. There were just some moments that I had to put in and that was one of them.

[32:05] Thanks for joining us on New York Theatre Barn's Backstage Pass. Join us next time for part two of our discussion. You'll hear more songs from Spectrum and we play a game where we come up with the very best musical theatre drag names.