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[0:00] Backstage Pass: Welcome back to Part 2 of our discussion with Michael R. Jackson and Anna K. Jacobs about their musical Teeth.

[1:08] Teresa Attridge: You'll hear two more songs from the show, and we play a game where we decide which musical theater characters should be armed with vagina dentata.

[1:20] Pauls Macs: If you haven't already, make sure to check out the show at New World Stages before it closes on January 5th.

[1:26] Pauls Macs: I think we should talk about "Always the Woman," which is another incredibly powerful song in this piece. Anna, you were writing straight bangers. I hope you know. Straight bangers.

[1:35] Anna K. Jacobs: Thank you.

[1:36] Pauls Macs: I was reading the description and you were like, it's like Tori Amos meets these chants. So "Always the Woman" comes pretty shortly after Dawn's teeth have presented themselves for the first time.

[1:47] Pauls Macs: And she has an escalated Toby in the lake and Toby is now missing and then discovered dead. She ends up by herself in her bedroom and she decides she needs to have a talk with Father God because she believes that the teeth are a curse for her desire and her acting out sexually with Toby in the lake.

[2:09] Pauls Macs: It's a song in which Dawn's situation is connected to situations of women before her, not just like her mother and her mother's mother, but all the way back through to Eve, the original sinner.

[2:24] Pauls Macs: Here is "Always the Woman," performed by Alyse Alan Louis.

[2:40] ♪ Musical number: "Always the Woman" — performed by Alyse Alan Louis ♪

[6:07] Pauls Macs: It's, gosh, it's just so... It's so hard listening to a young woman blame herself for something like that. It sucks.

[6:19] Anna K. Jacobs: I went to all girls Catholic school. I remember really distinctly in my freshman religion class, like first month, our teacher was giving us a talk about chastity and about modesty. The thing that she said to us was she was like, I want you to imagine every sexual act you've ever done. And now I want you to picture it on a billboard in the middle of the city for your dads, for your brothers, for everyone to look at. And I want to know if you feel embarrassed about that. And I raised my hand immediately and I went, well, I think the first thing we need to talk about is how that's unfair child sexual exploitation, because we're underage. And if you were going to proudly do that, you'd be exploiting children.

And I got kicked out of class and sent to the office. But I remember that moment really, really distinctly because they start you with fear and shame immediately. And so it becomes so deeply ingrained in you when you're raised in like a religious context, a lot of time, not for everyone.

[7:11] Pauls Macs: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I was not raised in a particularly religious context. My mom's family is Lebanese, so they're like Orthodox Christians. And my dad's family are like Middle Eastern Jews. And because everybody was so different from one another, it was just easier to be in a mostly agnostic household. But I will say that I feel like you can even reflect on this through a more general lens than just specifically sexuality and sexuality inside of religion. And sort of, I think the shared experience that a lot of female identifying folks have of just not being able to take up space or the very fact of taking up space or wanting power or wanting to be ambitious or wanting to fully express themselves is dirty and wrong and something to feel guilty about. As I was writing that song, because I have not sort of tangled with the same very specific tangle that Dawn is in, that was the sort of experiencing that I was funneling it through.

[8:11] Pauls Macs: Yeah, it absolutely comes through for sure. I'm just going to read some lyrics. It's always the woman the devil will claim. It's always the woman her birthright is shame, her body's desire, the cause of her chastening, the genesis of all suffering. I think this is a huge moment for Dawn as she's able to come to this realization and understand what's happened from a new perspective. Lastly, we'll do "Dentata." I love this song, this song. Okay. So I was in the audience and I was listening to this song or experiencing this song. I was like, I don't remember this from the movie. Can you please set up "Dentata"?

[8:42] Anna K. Jacobs: Yeah. So like you just said, Paul, the movie ends narratively before this moment in the show. But when Michael and I were adapting the movie, we felt like the narrative needed to continue forward more for it to be stage worthy. And for it to feel like the themes that we were exploring on as broad a scale as possible. So this was not just about like one woman, but this was about womankind. And so by this moment in the show, Dawn has now been violated not only by Toby and Dr. Godfrey, but she's also being betrayed by Ryan, who is up until this point her confidant and best friend in the show. At the same time, while her body's undergone this transformation, the bodies of the Promise Keeper Girls, they are also undergoing a transformation and they have since like sprouted teeth.

Ryan betrays Dawn and she tries to once again, like sort of suppress her rage, but it builds and builds until the ancient goddess of Dentata essentially possesses her body. She summons the Promise Keeper Girls and they go on a massive global killing spree and they take down everyone, including the truth seekers who are sort of the manhood who Brad is associated with. They take down the pastor. There is a complete Dentata resurgence and Dentata and her Promise Keeper Girl cohort are on top. There's a lot of performers on this song.

[10:16] Pauls Macs: Be like the cast of Teeth.

[10:18] Anna K. Jacobs: Exactly. Here's "Dentata" featuring essentially the cast of Teeth.

[10:41] ♪ Musical number: "Dentata" — performed by the cast of Teeth ♪

[12:25] ♪ Musical number: "Teeth" — performed by the cast of Teeth ♪

[17:05] Michael R. Jackson: The drive of this song lets me know that it's about to go down. Oh yeah, it starts with Elise singing in a different way than she has performed in the entire show. And then all of a sudden, it grows and grows and grows and goes to the most wild places you could have imagined. I mean, and dare I say, it has bite. There's some bite to this. We were changing the ending of Teeth every night when we were at Playwrights. And we ended up tossing out an entire finale that I will be doing in a concert at 54 Below on February 11th if you want to come hear it.

[17:30] Anna K. Jacobs: On February 11th? Be there, everyone. You heard it here first.

[17:40] Michael R. Jackson: Yes, and also Anna and I may be performing "Modest as Hot as Together."

[17:44] Anna K. Jacobs: Y'all, my everyone, please make it happen. This is a podcast exclusive, y'all. This is crazy.

[17:50] Michael R. Jackson: Oh my God. Well, count me in. I'll be there.

[17:53] Anna K. Jacobs: Just come. I would love that. Are tickets available? I'm going to look right now.

[17:57] Michael R. Jackson: Okay. Thank you. Oh my gosh. I'm in Seattle right now, but I might fly there to make it happen.

[18:01] Anna K. Jacobs: Fly out. It's a business expense.

[18:04] Michael R. Jackson: Can I just say that to me, the finale of the piece was the most thrilling part of the piece.

[18:09] Anna K. Jacobs: Thank you. There's such a clear reverence for the source material while also making smart, adaptive choices while I was watching the show. As soon as "Zintata" started, I was like, oh my God, I don't know what's going to happen. This is so incredible. And also just tech-wise, design-wise, it's thrilling. There's rain, there's fire.

[18:25] Michael R. Jackson: Yes, so good. Stage-worthy. And it is very stage-worthy. It's my favorite chunk of the show. Sometimes I'll go see the show and I'll just time it so I can catch "Zintata" and "Take Me Down."

[18:38] Anna K. Jacobs: Amazing. You're like, listen, I don't need to be in the splash zone.

[18:42] Michael R. Jackson: It's all a splash zone. I am awash in the joy of this.

[18:46] Anna K. Jacobs: I love that. Oh my God. And the way that you reimagined the confrontation between Brad and Dawn is so exciting as well.

[18:54] Michael R. Jackson: There is one more thing I will mention.

[18:56] Anna K. Jacobs: Yes, please.

[18:57] Michael R. Jackson: Because I know that this is like a podcast that's especially focused on new work and writers, the new writers. I went back before the Playwrights Horizons run, and I counted how many songs Anna and I have cut from the show. We cut, at that time, we've cut more since. We cut 32 songs.

[19:13] Anna K. Jacobs: 32, wow.

[19:14] Michael R. Jackson: There's 32 teeth in the human mouth!

[19:18] Anna K. Jacobs: That's crazy!

[19:20] Michael R. Jackson: That's literally the amount of teeth that are in the human mouth. That's crazy. It was death-dead.

[19:24] Anna K. Jacobs: Yeah, but I also just wanted to say that because I think when you are wrestling with something like Teeth, that it's trying to examine a lot. It's trying to do a lot. There are a lot of important characters whose storylines you're trying to juggle. You do have to be a little ruthless with your baby sometimes. That's one of the reasons I love writing with Michael so much, because when we recognize that a moment isn't working, and most especially a sung moment, we look at each other and we're like, okay, let's start again. And we just toss it out and we start over. And it's been a very freeing creative process because of that.

[20:02] Michael R. Jackson: At this stage in our little putt, I think it's time for us to play our game, which is going to be a little extra silly for this particular podcast. We're going to call this game "Moeller of the Story." Like moral of the story, but we switched the letters to make it a tooth. I wanted to propose the idea, if a blessing from the dentata came down on any musical theater character in any show, which character would you pick? Whether it's because you think it adds to the story, whether you think it's for the plot, it just makes it a little kooky, a little crazy. What should you choose?

[20:31] Anna K. Jacobs: My first thought was I was like, oh, "Best Little Whorehouse in Texas." That's a totally different story if the whorehouse is full of teeth. But I think the one I'd actually be most interested in is "Chicago," because I feel like this idea of women murdering their husbands is already such a great premise. But the idea of it leaning a little more into the body horror really kind of like tickles my brain in that way where I'm like, am I mentally well? Because this sounds fun to me. Do y'all have any idea what show you think would be either improved or at least made very interesting by the teeth filter or the teeth effect? Maybe we'll call it.

[21:04] Michael R. Jackson: I do.

[21:06] Anna K. Jacobs: Yeah, Anna's excited. Anna knows.

[21:10] Anna K. Jacobs: I do. So I'm going to preface by saying I think it was the night before Broadway shut down. Me and Michael went and saw the Ivan Van Ho revival of "West Side Story." And the rape scene of Anita was particularly brutal in that production. And it was hard for me to watch as an audience member. I would like Anita to have teeth.

[21:32] Michael R. Jackson: I agree a thousand percent. I'm with you so hard right now.

[21:35] Anna K. Jacobs: I think for me, I would give teeth to, oh, I'd give teeth to Audrey.

[21:44] Michael R. Jackson: Oh my gosh.

[21:46] Anna K. Jacobs: Get her away from the dentist.

[21:48] Michael R. Jackson: From all the bad people. Yeah.

[21:50] Anna K. Jacobs: Get rid of him sooner.

[21:51] Michael R. Jackson: Get rid of him. Thank you.

[21:52] Anna K. Jacobs: I also want Glinda to have teeth.

[21:54] Michael R. Jackson: I love that.

[21:55] Anna K. Jacobs: I mean, she's clearly covering something up. Maybe she does. Maybe that's like a whole extra layer.

[22:00] Michael R. Jackson: That will be the third movie.

[22:02] Anna K. Jacobs: Let us be glad. Let us be grateful. I'd also give teeth to Julie and Chobo.

[22:06] Michael R. Jackson: Yes.

[22:07] Anna K. Jacobs: Oh God. And Julie Jordan.

[22:11] Michael R. Jackson: Oh yeah, give teeth to Julie Jordan.

[22:13] Anna K. Jacobs: Oh, absolutely. She needs it. Yes.

[22:15] Michael R. Jackson: This is honestly just, it's like The Avengers.

[22:17] Anna K. Jacobs: One more. One more. Marianne the librarian.

[22:20] Michael R. Jackson: Give her teeth. Give her teeth.

[22:22] Anna K. Jacobs: She deserves better.

[22:23] Michael R. Jackson: Oh, I'd also give teeth to Dina from "Dreamgirls."

[22:26] Anna K. Jacobs: Oh my gosh.

[22:28] Michael R. Jackson: These are like the best game we ever played.

[22:33] Anna K. Jacobs: One more. One more.

[22:34] Michael R. Jackson: "Color Purple." Seelie.

[22:36] Anna K. Jacobs: Oh yeah. Seelie needed teeth.

[22:38] Michael R. Jackson: Oh my gosh. That was just wild. I am blushing or just like sweating because that was one of the most exhilarating games we ever played.

[22:45] Anna K. Jacobs: Yes.

[22:46] Michael R. Jackson: Usually people are like, oh, I don't know. Well, I can go first. And you're like, no, I'll go. Here's 10.

[22:51] Anna K. Jacobs: What does it say about our chosen form of art that we can come up with a list that long in a few seconds?

[22:57] Michael R. Jackson: Exactly. I mean, what does it say about the fact that art reflects life?

[23:00] Anna K. Jacobs: Right. That's the thing. That's why Teeth is important. Right. Because the reason that it is a story at all is because it's something that deals with things that happen in real life. And it gives everyone the opportunity to say, I am not powerless in this situation. And not only that, it is OK for me to take control in a way that some people would shame as like violent or irrational or it's not appropriate or it's gross. But I mean, the fact of the matter is, if someone bites you, bite back.

[23:28] Michael R. Jackson: Absolutely.

[23:29] Anna K. Jacobs: Or don't. Or don't. And stay inside of that system. Are you going to bite or are you going to swallow? I think that's really where we come from. There's lots of nodding heads in this Zoom studio right now.

[23:40] Teresa Attridge: Well, thank you both so much for being here. It was such an honestly honor to talk with you about the creation of this fantastic musical. Such a pleasure also just to get your perspective and hear about your collaboration. We really appreciate you taking the time to be with us today. And the beauty of it being like a true friendship as well. Like you can tell just the way you talk about each other, the way you talk about developing the piece. It's so great to see that, yes, it takes a long time for a show to come to fruition. But what you gain at the end is not just the piece itself, but clearly you two have been on journeys in life together. And it's really beautiful to see that.

[24:13] Michael R. Jackson: Yeah.

[24:14] Anna K. Jacobs: Yes, for sure.

[24:15] Teresa Attridge: Thanks for listening, Barnacles. Hope you enjoyed our season two premiere. We'll see you again soon. Bye-bye.

[24:21] Pauls Macs: Thanks for joining us on New York Theatre Barn's Backstage Pass, hosted by Teresa Attridge and Pauls Macs. And if you believe in supporting original culture-shifting musicals, please like, subscribe, and share.