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[0:42] Teresa Attridge: Hello and welcome to Backstage Pass. It's Teresa.

[0:46] Pauls Macs: And Pauls.

[0:47] Teresa Attridge: And we are so, so excited because we have a very, very special guest today. The one, the only, drumroll, drumroll, introduce yourself.

[0:55] Justin Huertas: Hi, I'm Justin Huertas.

[0:57] Teresa Attridge: Hi, Justin. Hello. We're so happy to have you today.

[1:01] Justin Huertas: So happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

[1:04] Pauls Macs: Well, first off, I think listeners should know that Justin and I are actually both in Seattle right now, which is where we met. Teresa's in New York.

[1:10] Teresa Attridge: So this is truly a bi-coastal podcast in this moment.

[1:12] Pauls Macs: And also, I just want to say that we're going to talk a lot about Justin's artistry today, which is amazing to have watched his career just grow and flourish. But also, I just want to say I'm very lucky to have Justin as a friend.

[1:19] Justin Huertas: Thank you.

[1:22] Pauls Macs: We both used to work at Starbucks in the same building.

[1:25] Justin Huertas: Yeah.

[1:27] Pauls Macs: I remember talking with you about Lizard Boy before it was Lizard Boy.

[1:30] Justin Huertas: Wow. I mean, seeing the journey of Lizard Boy has been so exciting.

[1:33] Pauls Macs: Actually, I would say one of the most exciting things in my artistic career has seen the way that you've grown as an artist and flourished and everyone appreciates you.

[1:41] Justin Huertas: Oh, my God. Thanks.

[1:43] Pauls Macs: You're starting to get the recognition that you deserve.

[1:45] Justin Huertas: And I hope, I hope they do.

[1:47] Pauls Macs: This is really emotional. It's like when you watch a stranger's wedding vows on TikTok.

[1:51] Justin Huertas: I can't believe.

[1:52] Pauls Macs: After all this time, you're getting the recognition that you deserve.

[1:58] Justin Huertas: And I love you.

[1:59] Pauls Macs: I've never watched a stranger's vows on TikTok.

[2:02] Justin Huertas: You're missing out.

[2:03] Pauls Macs: I'm going to do that right after we get done with this podcast.

[2:05] Justin Huertas: Oh, yeah.

[2:06] Pauls Macs: Talk about theater.

[2:07] Justin Huertas: Oh, my gosh.

[2:08] Pauls Macs: A wedding is really just theater for people who don't do it at all.

[2:12] Justin Huertas: The costume, the set, the script.

[2:14] Pauls Macs: Oh, my God. It's so true.

[2:16] Justin Huertas: There's a rehearsal and everything.

[2:17] Pauls Macs: Everything.

[2:18] Justin Huertas: A wedding is just immersive theater.

[2:20] Pauls Macs: Yes.

[2:21] Justin Huertas: For, well, I sometimes call them muggles.

[2:23] Pauls Macs: People who do theater, but they don't do theater.

[2:25] Justin Huertas: They want to.

[2:26] Pauls Macs: And actually, when I was getting married to my lovely wife, Sarah, who's also friends with Justin, who also worked with Justin.

[2:31] Justin Huertas: At Starbucks.

[2:32] Pauls Macs: Oh, my God. This is just a Starbucks gang.

[2:35] Justin Huertas: Y'all real deep.

[2:36] Pauls Macs: Truly, yeah. Well, we thought of it in that way. That it's like theater for non-theater people.

[2:40] Teresa Attridge: Well, Pauls and I know that Justin is super amazing. And I think there's lots of artists who do. But I want to go ahead and read your bio, Justin, so if anybody hasn't met you yet, they know how incredible you are.

[2:50] Pauls Macs: Yes.

[2:50] Teresa Attridge: Justin Huertas is an award-winning playwright, composer, lyricist, and actor best known for his original musical, Lizard Boy, which first premiered at Seattle Repertory Theater and recently ran off-Broadway in a critically acclaimed production with Prospect Theater Company.

[3:04] Pauls Macs: Yes.

[3:04] Teresa Attridge: His performance as Trevor has earned him regional theater awards in Seattle, San Diego, and in the San Francisco Bay Area. He and Stephen Tran composed original music for the podcast Marvel's Squirrel Girl, the unbeatable radio show.

[3:17] Pauls Macs: Yes.

[3:17] Teresa Attridge: And I'm wearing my Captain America t-shirt today in honor of Marvel and in honor of Justin. That's one thing that we love in common.

[3:23] Pauls Macs: Absolutely.

[3:23] Teresa Attridge: Other works include The Mortification of Fovia Munson, based on Mary Jane Hyder's novel at the Kennedy Center, Lydia and the Troll, co-created and directed by Amina Kaplan at Seattle Repertory Theater, and We've Battled Monsters Before with Rihanna Atendido, which was at both Arts West in Seattle and the Green Room 42 in New York City.

[3:39] Pauls Macs: Yes.

[3:39] Teresa Attridge: You can find Justin on Instagram if you want to follow him.

[3:42] Pauls Macs: Okay, well, I think the first thing we want to talk about is your musical, Lizard Boy, which, as we said, you know, I first saw Lizard Boy at Seattle Repertory Theater. But even before that, I went to a rehearsal. I remember sitting in a rehearsal for one of the workshops and Lizard Boy has just exploded.

[3:57] Teresa Attridge: And Justin, you recently saw it in New York, right, Justin?

[4:00] Justin Huertas: Oh, my God, I was goofed. I gagged. I literally, like, Lizard Boy run, Lizard Boy fly. I was ready to, like, stand up and start fully, like, stomping along. And then I was like, no, don't do that. I wanted to move so badly.

[4:13] Pauls Macs: The show is so electric. And I feel like that also translates on the recording, which is not super easy to do. But, like, the three of you have some mad chemistry going on and the music is, like, out of this world.

[4:24] Justin Huertas: Thank you.

[4:25] Pauls Macs: Thank you, Justin, for writing it. I was listening to it this week. I was like, oh, I love this score so much.

[4:33] Teresa Attridge: It still hits, like, years and years later. But, Justin, can you tell the story of how Lizard Boy came to be for anybody who doesn't know?

[4:40] Justin Huertas: Yeah, oh, my God. I'll try and, you know, do the Cliff Notes version. So I was on tour with the second national tour of Spring Awakening playing cello. And on my holiday layoff back home in Seattle, I played a concert. I played cello in the band of a musical theater concert that the artistic director of Seattle Repertory Theater, Jerry Manning, happened to see. He knew me as an actor because I had worked as an actor at Seattle Rep. But he approached me after and said, you're an actor who plays cello. You should have a show where you play cello. And I was like, yeah, whatever that means. I'm down for that. And so he called me into a meeting. We talked about my dreams and aspirations and how writing a show is not one of those dreams, but I'm open to it.

And so he said, great, we're just going to commission you to write a journal and I'll pair you with a playwright. He had paired me with a playwright named Andrea Allen, who was basically there to guide all of my writing into something. So I kept a journal while I was on the rest of that Spring Awakening tour. And then after the tour ended, Andrea and Jerry and I just kind of sussed through my journal entries just to see if there was anything we connected with. And after quite some time, we landed on this story that I made up. So Andrea would prompt me sometimes if I didn't know what to write in my journal. She'd be like, well, today, try writing about your family because that's something we might be able to use in whatever this play is.

OK, today, write your coming out story. And then that was the one where I was like, I don't think that's very interesting. My coming out story is actually quite boring because I told my friends and family, hey, I'm gay. And everyone's like, yeah, I know. It was like the chillest, most like I was very privileged for everyone to just like accept me so quickly because they already knew. Everyone already knew. It's a boring story. There's no like, you know, turmoil. There's no like drama that I had always seen on TV that all gays have to go through. So when she asked me to write my coming out story, I added superpowers because I was like, OK, I grew up with comic book superheroes. X-Men, Spider-Man were my favorite.

And the way that I'm going to spice up this coming out story is giving myself lizard skin. So that was the journal entry that we all gravitated toward. We developed that story and then it really wasn't until, I don't know, a year into development that I realized that I was writing a metaphor for race and like a metaphor for growing up around and like, you know, really white Seattle. And like, I didn't even know I was just like, this is just a funny thing. And yeah, truly, like, you know, that whole story of Lizard Boy is him coming into his own and standing in his own power. And I, as a human, wasn't even there yet. So I was kind of like charting a course for myself.

[7:19] Pauls Macs: I got goosebumps from that. I really did. I mean, I don't want to speak for writers, but I wrote a play once and what was so interesting about writing it was I didn't understand what I was writing until afterwards. And I was writing about my insecurities and my conflicted relationships with some of the mentors I've had. But I had no idea. And then suddenly it was also clear at the end. So I think it's kind of fascinating that I think it's a common experience that you understand what you're writing after you've been in the process for a while.

[7:44] Justin Huertas: Art in itself is sort of like an act of uncovering, right? The themes that we try to explore already exist, but we're just sort of like shifting the sand or like trying to find the bits of gold in the river.

[7:54] Pauls Macs: Right. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[7:56] Teresa Attridge: I just want to read the synopsis just so people can know what the official synopsis of Lizard Boy is about.

[8:02] Justin Huertas: I wonder what it is. I don't know if I know what the official synopsis is.

[8:06] Teresa Attridge: I'll read it and we can cut it if you don't like it. If the world were against you, would you still save it? Trevor feels like a monster, scaly and green skinned. He rarely braves the city outside his apartment. When a powerful voice calls to him in a dream, he impulsively finds a date on Grindr and begins an adventure beyond his wildest apocalyptic nightmares. Sparks fly in this queer indie rock action romance that pulses with fierce conflict and fiercer harmonies on its heart pounding journey of self-discovery.

[8:36] Justin Huertas: That's a good one. That's a yeah.

[8:38] Teresa Attridge: I found a few and that was the best one I found, just so you know.

[8:40] Justin Huertas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That thought. I felt really good because that was like mostly written by Prospect Theater Company. And then I swooped in with if the world were against you, would you still save it? And so I feel really proud of that particular sentence because that was from me.

[8:55] Teresa Attridge: I love that because it's like when you're talking about how so much of this related back to you and your brownness and coming out and trying to like find your place in the world. I do feel like in the art scene, but even in our own culture, like being an artist and a person of color is like they're two really hard things to carry simultaneously. Because you sort of feel like you're disappointing somebody no matter where you go, no matter how much you love it. They're like, you're a little brown. Your family's like, ooh, are you a nurse? Are you a nurse yet? Do you want to do that? And you're just like, no, auntie, I don't want to. I don't want to also be a nurse.

[9:28] Justin Huertas: It's true, though. It's like growing up kind of feeling as though there isn't really a blueprint for all the things that you can be, all the things that you can hold. It's this idea of like you feel like you have to compromise in order to fit into at least like what's out there that you could see yourself in. I've seen Filipino nurses. I've seen Filipino doctors. I'm like, I guess that's where I fit. But what if I don't want to do that? I want to be an artist, but I don't see Filipino artists. So does that mean I can't be one? It's constantly, if I can't see myself in it, am I not supposed to? That's what Lizard Boy is about. He's destined to be a hero, but he's never seen a hero who looks like him. How do you know you can do it if you don't see it? And sometimes you have to be that for yourself, which is really scary.

[10:13] Pauls Macs: Yeah, Siren alludes to that too, doesn't she? She says, you know, you've never seen yourself as a hero. Now you're like an absolute zero.

[10:20] Justin Huertas: It's the idea of believing all the things, believing all the lies, right? All the lies that you're constantly being told about where you fit. When you believe those things, it gets you nowhere.

[10:31] Pauls Macs: It gets you nowhere.

[10:32] Justin Huertas: And that's truly how I felt working at Starbucks. Like originally Myth to Live By, the original lyrics of Myth to Live By were actually like me, me singing about how I don't belong here. I don't belong. I'm not supposed to be a barista. I think I'm supposed to do something else. How do I leave? How do I make my way if I've never seen anyone do it before? That's why when people connect with Lizard Boy, it makes me feel amazing because it's like 21-year-old Justin is getting like a hug. You're going to make it and everyone is rooting for you. It's amazing and like really complicated.

[11:07] Pauls Macs: Sometimes there's this weird principle in storytelling where the more personal you make it, it then somehow becomes more universal. Like for example, I remember a lot of walks to Starbucks at 3 a.m.

[11:18] Justin Huertas: 3AM in the dark when I was 21 or 20, whatever it was. And just being like, am I ever gonna make it? Was this the right path for me? What am I doing with my life? And, you know, fortunately we're doing other things now. Great. But I can at least connect with that struggle. But the other thing is I would say that it feels like such a personal part of you in the way that it's written on a micro level as well. Like for example, when you have a character just saying, okay, bye in all caps, that's something that I feel like just talks like that or literally instrumentation is designed for you and your collaborators, the lizards. In fact, maybe it's now a good time to talk about the lizards and like their part in the development process.

[11:56] Teresa Attridge: Sure.

[11:57] Justin Huertas: Yeah. I mean, so originally this was proposed to me by Jerry Manning at Seattle Rep as a solo show, not really knowing what we were going to make it about, but once we zeroed in on this character, whoever this is, this like me with lizard skin, I was just very, it was two things. The first thing was if it's a comic book superhero story, there should be other people in it. You know, there should be a love interest. There should be a villain. There should be other kind of archetypes from a hero story. And then the second part for me was I don't want to do a solo show. I don't want to be by myself. I don't like being by myself. There's a whole huge monologue in like the first couple of pages of Lizard Boy.

It's my least favorite thing to do. I just like, can't wait for the other two characters to enter. Cause I don't like being by myself. So I wrote this kind of, well, it wasn't going to be a villain at first. It was going to be like a teammate, this character who became Siren. I wrote her as a rock singer who had some kind of secret woven into Trevor's past. And I knew that if it was a rock singer, I'm writing it for my college best friend, Kiki Delor. And Kiki and I, we met, she was a freshman. I was a sophomore at Pacific Lutheran University in Tacoma, Washington. We became fast friends when I bullied her into auditioning for Cabaret. So she and I, her freshman year, my sophomore year were Sally Bowles and the MC in Cabaret together.

I like pictures. I want to go back in time and see that production so bad. We are waiting. We are waiting for our shot to do it again. So we'll see what happens. But yeah, I knew I was writing. I was writing Siren for her. And then I started writing the love interest. It was really important to me that Trevor have a love interest who is also a man. I wanted him to be a queer hero, but I didn't want his trauma to go anywhere near his queerness. For me, like his queerness is a given. We're not even going to talk about it. He is gay and he is falling in love. They're not coming out. They're not being bullied. They're not being ostracized in any way for their queerness. That is just a given. And the world loves it because I need it in that time to be able to imagine a world where we could just walk around and just be gay.

I think this was also the time of like early Glee where Chris Colfer's character was just being bullied. And I was like, I don't need that. I mean, also Chris Colfer was just straight up being massacred. Oh my God. It's crazy. Enemy number one. It was a wild time. They were going after like a child. So I knew that I needed a queer character and I needed that queerness to be a given. But the other catch was if the requirement for this commission at Seattle Rep was me playing a cello, then these other two characters should play instruments too. That was just the logic in my head. I brought Kiki on and Kiki couldn't play any instruments, but I put a ukulele in her hands. She couldn't play anything.

Are you kidding? She's amazing. The show. What does she play? She plays the most instruments in the show now. She plays every single one. She plays the guitar, piano, everything. But that first workshop I handed her a ukulele and I was like, the chords are easy. This is what you're going to learn. And it's going to be so easy. And she like was brave and she picked up the ukulele and then we brought on Bill, Bill Williams, William A. Williams. We call him Bill. Bill was also a Seattle actor. He had graduated from Cornish College here in Seattle. He's an incredibly talented instrumentalist. If he wasn't acting in something, he was in the pit orchestra for something else. When we brought him on it, just like everything just kind of clicked and he has this like wonderful, intuitive musician brain.

And Kiki does too. She just didn't call it that because in her mind, she was like, I only sing, I do nothing else. But I would bring in a song like Another Part of Me. Another Part of Me was a song that it was just a solo voice. And I brought it to them and us along with our music consultant way back when, who was Mark Anders, we all just kind of like created the harmonies for Another Part of Me. And it became so magical. That is the one song. I guess that and A Terrible Ride are the two songs that really haven't changed since they were written. And it was then like that first workshop, my first workshop with Bill and Kiki, being able to kind of build the score like a garage band. I was like, oh, this is it.

Whatever we're doing here, this is it. It's been the three of us since 2013. That was that first workshop. And then in 2014, Brandon Ivy, the director came on board. He is the fourth lizard. He was like a piece of the puzzle that we didn't know we needed until he came into the room and experimented with fight choreography. The fight was an entire sequence where I knew it had to be there because it's a comic book superhero story. There has to be a climactic fight. And in my mind, the music comes from us. We're the instrumentalists. So I think it's a radio play moment where like, we just play instruments. Maybe the projections show you what the action actually is while we do all the Foley and go, look out.

And it was Brandon who was like, okay, but what if you did everything? What if you fought each other with the instruments that you were playing? And we were like, it's incredibly creatively staged. It's so, it doesn't like that first workshop in 2014 with Brandon. Oh my God. That was, we were so angry. We were so impatient. We were like, what are you trying to make us do? And we're so glad that he never backed down because we kept saying like, we can't do this. He's like, I think you can. And here we are. Even now, the production that we just had at Theater Row, there was new choreography. Brandon was like, okay, the fight is what it is. I think we can do more. He put new choreography on us.

This fight is like the most fleshed out it's ever, ever been, which is awesome and we're really proud of it. So those are the Lizard. That's me, Kiki, Bill and Brandon. And we've been together ever since.

[17:44] Teresa Attridge: Wow.

[17:45] Justin Huertas: Yeah, a decade. It's crazy. And you just recently did a production in NYC off Broadway.

[17:54] Teresa Attridge: Oh, it's Teresa. You actually went to see, right?

[17:56] Justin Huertas: I absorbed it.

[17:57] Teresa Attridge: I like how I said, like you went to see, right? Like I didn't know. Like I know, I know exactly how many weeks ago. I remember I was so excited to go. And a friend of mine ended up going on the same day and we didn't know the other one was going. So one of my besties and I, we like sat near each other. I didn't know what to expect. I knew nothing about it at the time. I was one of those people. I like, I don't want to know. I don't want to look into it. I don't want to know anything. All I know is there's a Filipino person and a lizard. Little did I know it was a Filipino lizard. Those two things alone were enough of a sell for me, right? Cause you know, as a like queer Filipino musical theater nerd, this was written for me.

And if I don't absolutely love it, I don't know what to do. And really just like the electricity of the room and the performances. And just, it was so affirming as someone who is also very much in that vein of again, like all of those very different like archetypes, like, and seeing it in one show and just being like, Oh my God, this is everything I love in one place. Like I have a piece of art. I really identify with in a very like multifaceted way. I can watch a show and be like, Oh, I like understand what that character is going through. But very rarely am I like, this is so my wheelhouse. And I feel like maybe most people feel that way of being like, Oh, I'm just such a niche individual.

I'm so multifaceted. And then I walked into the theater and I'm like, Oh, I've been seen. I've been exposed even. So thank you for that. Because I think that was one of the first times I've like seen a show and really felt that way about it.

[19:25] Justin Huertas: Oh God. Thank you for saying that. When we were building this, I mean, you know, when Brandon came on, he's also such a whiz with like dramaturgy and story structure, he and I worked very closely as I continued to kind of hone in the script and really figure out what I was trying to say. And there were so many moments where I was like, is this to me? Trevor is this budding songwriter who also plays cello, who also draws, who also like has a sketch pad. And, and I had a moment of like, is the drawing like a step too far? Because like, that just feels like he does a lot of things. Is he less accessible if he has more things happening? And Brandon was like, but you do all those things. Like you write and you play cello and you draw.

It's human. Cause you're obviously doing it. I don't think it's going to be hard for us to understand that because you are literally a real human in front of us who does all those things. Then I was like, Oh, sure. Sure. Also Trevor never leaves his house. It's not like he does one thing every single day, right? He's probably watched all of Drag Race. He just loves James Monsoon.

[20:35] Teresa Attridge: Yeah.

[20:36] Justin Huertas: Yeah, it's true. It's true. It's that thing of just like, why are you trying to reign in your character's interests? You know, exactly what you said Powell's about, like the specificity can often be more universal. So, you know, I'm grateful to Brandon for encouraging me to keep letting Trevor be as complex as he is. Cause I mean, that's, that's us.

[20:55] Teresa Attridge: Yeah. I think Brandon's suggestion was so wise because even though Trevor is a lizard boy, he feels so real to me. And I think that's, what's so amazing about the piece. It's set in a superhero context. And also he just feels so fleshed out. So does Carrie. Carrie feels super, I know like.

[21:13] Justin Huertas: Yes.

[21:14] Teresa Attridge: Oh yeah, Carrie, absolutely. All joys, all. And then you have Siren, who is like amazing villain, right? So you put those together.

[21:24] Justin Huertas: Let me tell you.

[21:26] Teresa Attridge: Okay. I also know Kiki and Kiki is a star. One of the most dazzling like performances I've seen from a woman on stage in a long, long time.

[21:34] Justin Huertas: I am seeing her tonight and I'm going to tell her that you said that.

[21:38] Teresa Attridge: That's amazing. I need you to, and I need you to tell her I meant it with every fiber of my feral little heart.

[21:45] Justin Huertas: Feral is like the key word because I feel like so often archetypes of like young women on stage. Right. It's like beyond even just like ingenues. I feel like you don't see a lot of like roguish, feral, animalistic women represented well. One of the things I love the most about the piece was how the character was written in the sense that she was someone who was like so absolute in her power and unquestioning of her motive and morals and like so fierce about it and just like straight up threatening to kill a stranger. And she's going to do it. Why won't he leave? Like, she's clearly going to kill him, you know, but it's so wild to see someone command that much feminine power, you know, and to be allowed to be just like wigging a beer and just like, it's like so grungy and cool, you know, and I really loved that. And just like terrible ride gets me every time. Incredible.

[22:35] Justin Huertas: Yeah. Bill and I are a company.

[22:37] Justin Huertas: And I am, you know, slightly downstage of her on a lower level looking up at her. And I'm just like, I turn into a fan every single performance. I'm just like, oh, she's like amazing. Like, I can't believe I get to be this close to her while she's doing this. Truly, like, you should thank her every day.

[22:57] Pauls Macs: I should. I need to jump in with like two things that I love about Lizard Boy. It's obvious there's so, so many things to love, right? But so, you know, as a comic book fan, there's certain comic book references that when I see those on stage, I know that moment. And I understand that moment. And that even for me is so powerful. Like my, not my favorite moment, but one of my favorite moments in Lizard Boy has always been the moment after like Trevor gets his powers and then he tries to take off his glasses because he thinks his vision is perfect. And he's like, no, I still need this. Spider-Man 1! It's a callback to the Spider-Man 1 movie with Tobey Maguire, where he takes off his glasses and he doesn't need them anymore.

I have always, always, always loved that moment. And I think what's amazing about your ability to do that in Lizard Boy is you're drawing upon, I guess I'll say like familiar scenes or even iconography that we all as an audience, not we all, I don't want to say we all, but many of us, many of us understand. And we see that and we recognize and we say, that's so funny. That's so clever. Or the doppelganger moment when Carrie looks like Siren. I mean, how many movies have we seen where suddenly there's two, there's two of them and we have to like figure out which one is real because the other one knows something that the other wouldn't. And yet, because they don't look like each other, it's so, so funny.

What you're doing is drawing on familiar contexts, but then flipping them on their head. And it's so hilarious. And we see that and we're like, oh, I know what Justin's doing. I am very, and it's also, you know, it helps that we're all, all three of us, much as we love to really dig into the pathos of these characters, we're also clowns. We love being clowns. So writing these moments and Brandon is such a master of comedy. That's also a moment where I'm just slightly downstage. I'm looking up at my castmates while they're in this moment. And I'm just like, I'm so lucky that I get to be here because this moment is so absurd. The two of them in this moment, Siren is trying to confuse Trevor by shape-shifting into Carrie.

So Trevor sees two Carries in front of him and doesn't know which one is the real one. Both of them are just being absurd. What Brandon told Kiki is do Siren's impression of Carrie, like how she thinks Carrie sounds. Don't hold back. So it's Kiki as Siren doing an impression of Carrie with zero respect, like zero at all. It's like this guy, this guy sucks. And I'm going to show you how much he sucks. And so that in itself, that's an absurd thing. And then as Carrie is trying to say, hey, it's me. He gets increasingly kooky, crazy. And to the point, I just, I love the idea that this is happening and Trevor is down there and can't tell who is who. It's incredible. And I'm glad that you touched on like the absurdity because there are so many moments that are just genuinely absurd.

Like Carrie's Halloween costume, or pardon, Carrie's monster fest costume gets me every time. Cause I'm like, he just had it in a box. He had a sexy baby costume ready to go. Full of other costumes, I would assume, and chose that one. And or opened a costume box and it only had a baby costume in it. Either way, the choice was wild. Or even just the very premise of the grinder date of just like fully not knowing what looking for Val means. Just, oh, oh, oh, my little heart. I was just, I also love like, that's also one of the moments where we can absolutely tell, I feel like it's a moment in performance where we find the queer people in the audience. As soon as he says, ah, looking for now, great.

The reaction from queer people is so different and hilarious than for anyone else. I love it. It's awesome. I do want to say really quick before we move on, I'm appreciative of what you said about Siren and how she's written because that's been a project over the years between me and Kiki. She and I built this character from the ground up. And she started off as just a straight up mustache twirling villain. She wanted to be queen of the dragons way back when. And then at some point we decided, oh no, I think she wants to save the world. I think she has altruistic goals in mind. She's just going about them in a very different way than anyone else would. And we've come up against producing bodies and institutional leadership who criticized the way we built Siren and said, I don't know.

She's murdering people. Shouldn't she have a moment of atonement or a moment of apology? Shouldn't she say I'm sorry? Either that or she should be vanquished. And we were like, what? And it's been this whole thing of trying to punish the woman for literally trying to save the world. And it was so bizarre to me that it had been a constant conversation whenever we did the show anywhere because we really believe she's allowed to be a really complex person who's done really awful things but really believes in what she's doing because she believes that it's going to save the world. It makes the most sense to us. You know, you're not the first person who said that Siren is, you know, awesome. But it's women who come to me and Kiki and say like, this character is dope.

Every single time we're like, oh my God, thank you. Because sometimes it just feels like, are we crazy? Are we just crazy, right? Because I feel like we're doing what we're supposed to do. So it means a lot. It means a lot.

[28:07] Pauls Macs: Of course. Well, it's also like, yeah, let a woman be crazy. If we're going to be called crazy anyway, let her be like an unhinged, you know? What I really love about the Siren Trevor dichotomy, right, is that what you have is you have an anti-hero and a reluctant hero who are both trying to figure out which one is the chosen one, right? Like all three of the heroes journey archetypes are right there, but we don't yet know who is chosen. And it's very interesting that you're able to fit like all three of the like major hero tropes in there. Just chillin'. He's just happy to be here. Carrie's just like playing instruments and beatboxing and dressed like a baby. Like Carrie is like definition vibes.

Jellyfish. No brains aside. And going back to what we were saying though about the hero archetypes, the hero's journey, and yet at the same time, you have that scene between Trevor and Carrie where Carrie just recognizes that, you know, what makes Trevor unique makes him awesome. And I think that moment for anybody who has felt weird, like I was a weird kid in high school and college, to have someone recognize you and say like, oh, actually you're amazing. You're awesome for like who you are. That is such a human moment when weird people find someone who appreciates them. That's incredible. So it's this duality that's so magical about Lizard Boys. You have these massive, incredible superhero archetypes happening, and yet they're like the most... Treat me like I'm human. Not the freak I try to hide. Those lyrics are cut now, but yeah.

[29:39] Justin Huertas: I was listening to that album. Honestly, like I forget. It's so funny because that album, you know, we recorded that during the original production in 2015. And so much has changed since then. And I haven't, I haven't gone back to listen to it, but I love it when people quote those lyrics back to me because I'm just like, oh my God, I forgot about those lyrics. And I love those lyrics. We've just moved past them.

[30:23] Justin Huertas: This song is called Survive with music and lyrics by Justin Huertas and music production by Stephen Tran.

[30:54] ♪ Musical number: "Survive" — performed by Justin Huertas ♪

[33:28] Thanks for joining us on New York Theater Barn's Backstage Pass. Join us next time as we continue our discussion with Justin Huertas about his new musicals Lizard Boy and Lydia and the Troll. Backstage Pass. Get your Backstage Pass.