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[0:00] Eila Mell: Hi, it's me, Ana Gasteyer, and you're listening to Behind the Awards.

[0:07] Eila Mell: Hello, and welcome to Behind the Awards. I'm Eila. As always, I'm here with Bruce.

[0:18] Bruce Gotlieb: Hello.

[0:19] Eila Mell: Good morning to you.

[0:20] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, I'm so excited because I finally saw Schoolgirls.

[0:25] Eila Mell: I know. I've been waiting.

[0:26] Bruce Gotlieb: I know.

[0:27] Eila Mell: Two weeks to talk to you about this.

[0:30] Bruce Gotlieb: I know. Well, as you know, I was supposed to go two weeks ago, but then there was that huge Nor'easter.

[0:36] Eila Mell: Yes.

[0:37] Bruce Gotlieb: And I had to reschedule it, so I finally went, and wow, what a show.

[0:45] Eila Mell: It's so, so, so good. You know, so for people who haven't gotten there yet, I say get your tickets now because it's not one of these open-ended shows that is just going to be around. And I think, although we always talk about what will be remembered come Tony time, I think without a doubt, this play will be remembered.

[1:05] Bruce Gotlieb: I think for sure it's got to be in the best play category. Now, would this be a revival or a best play? You know, already the question is starting.

[1:14] Eila Mell: Right. And when the committee, you know, like, when does the committee meet? When does, you know?

[1:19] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, once again, I'm putting it out there. I really think it should be very cut and dry. If the show has been on Broadway before, then it's a revival. If it hasn't, then it's a new play. It just, why make it so difficult?

[1:32] Eila Mell: I know. I know. Let's start with, you know, Whitney White's direction is just so good. It's distinct. There's no, there's no tricks, right? It's just keeping the story true. And these characters, you know, true to who they are. I love the simplicity and ease that it comes across for, that it came across for me as the audience member.

[1:59] Bruce Gotlieb: It's very nuanced storytelling, right? I mean, obviously we have to start with the incredible script by Jocelyn Beo that it's just fantastic. And how fun that she stepped in to play. Is it Eloise?

[2:13] Eila Mell: I believe that was, yes, she did.

[2:15] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. When Patina Miller had to be out for a week or so.

[2:21] Eila Mell: Yes.

[2:22] Bruce Gotlieb: I mean, what a treat. It's so well-written. It captures the 80s really well.

[2:27] Eila Mell: Yes.

[2:28] Bruce Gotlieb: I love that. It captures girls at that age really well. And then Whitney White elevates any show she directs, I think. It's just, you know, she, she gets it. She's, you know, I was thinking it's kind of this season's liberation for me. And then I realized, oh, well, of course it is because it's the same director.

[2:48] Eila Mell: Right. You need a certain director with a certain, I guess, you know, a certain panache for storytelling for this show, for liberation.

[2:58] Bruce Gotlieb: You know, even though these scripts are so good, they could almost be handed to anyone in the hands of someone like Whitney White. They're just better.

[3:09] Eila Mell: Yeah. I mean, she's coming from, I think, a very specific perspective, right? These people, you know, are seemingly around a certain age, right? Whether it takes place in the 70s or the 80s, you know, these girls are in a certain place in their life where I feel like, you know, while Whitney might not have experienced going to boarding school and what it was like for these girls, she knows what it's like to be a girl or a woman at a certain age that's vying for, you know, the attention of their peers and the, you know, the back and forth with what it's like to try to blend in and stand apart at the same time.

[3:51] Bruce Gotlieb: And, you know, and, you know, it is the African Mean Girls play, but it's pretty universal. You know, the story, it's just girls at that age, although there are things that are specific to that place and time. And those are important parts of the story. Anyone who's ever gone to school can relate to it. Let's talk about some of the performances.

[4:13] Eila Mell: I mean, where do you want to start?

[4:16] Bruce Gotlieb: I mean, where do we start? Right. It's from top to bottom. There was no weak link for me.

[4:22] Eila Mell: Yeah. Jasmine Amy Rogers. I mean, is there is nothing this girl can't do, in my opinion. I know every role. And it should be different. But every role is like she climbs into like the soul of the character.

[4:40] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. And she's a real chameleon.

[4:40] Eila Mell: Yeah. You know, another thing that I give it so much credit for is that I believed every single one of them was high school age because that almost never happens because they look so young. None of them are high school age, but because they look so young, it just it makes it even more heartbreaking when some of the things happen that go down in this show.

[5:06] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, I mean, not to like give out people's ages or anything, but there's, you know, a seven year difference between Danae Benton and Jasmine Amy Rogers. And when you're looking at them on stage, you wouldn't think that at all.

[5:26] Eila Mell: Now, you know, they both look like they belong in high school and they both act like they're of the same, you know, age or, you know, class in terms of, you know, where whatever I think they're both. Are they both supposed to be seniors or juniors like they're both?

[5:39] Bruce Gotlieb: They are. They're both seniors.

[5:43] Eila Mell: Yeah. You know, so I know. I know. That's pretty amazing. The wig work by Nikki Mathis. Oh, my gosh. Off the charts. It all looks like actual just real hair. She's she's just an all star when it comes to that.

[5:57] Bruce Gotlieb: I know. That's why she's got a special Tony.

[6:02] Eila Mell: That's right. Well, she should get another one.

[6:02] Bruce Gotlieb: She should. Plus, I saw the imaginary invalid later that day, and she did those wigs, too. And it's just, you know, like a complete 360. It just the range of what this woman can do is incredible.

[6:13] Eila Mell: Yeah, we should get her on the show.

[6:19] Bruce Gotlieb: We should ask her to be on the show.

[6:19] Eila Mell: Absolutely. Benson, I loved having her back on Broadway in a different, you know, in something you don't typically see her in.

[6:27] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. She's normally in a musical, you know.

[6:32] Eila Mell: Yes. Much like, you know, Jasmine Amy Rogers and most of these women that are in this piece. It was fun to see her be the mean girl a little bit.

[6:45] Bruce Gotlieb: So, yes. And what's crazy about her performance is that she is so mean. It's really mean. But you're still rooting for her to get what she wants.

[6:57] Eila Mell: Well, because she's vulnerable, even though she's mean, she shows you where maybe a place where she's coming from. And you're almost sympathetic until she says the next thing. And you're like, why am I rooting for her? But you are because you understand why she wants it so badly.

[7:16] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. Right. No, I agree. I agree. Erin Morton, to me, is. Oh, what a star. What a star. And she's she's kind of the heart of the play.

[7:26] Eila Mell: Yeah. And the audience is so on her side when she finally has a bit of a change in attitude. The audience really gets behind her.

[7:39] Bruce Gotlieb: They're really gearing up for it, for sure. Yeah. And Tina Miller, of course, back on Broadway as well. I mean, she comes in and just owns the stage.

[7:45] Eila Mell: Yes. But I also the costumes by Queen Jean are just fantastic. And Tina Miller really, you know, most everyone else is in school uniforms, but she's not. And it just tells you who that woman is right away. And the wig, too. Yes. Amazing.

[8:08] Bruce Gotlieb: Um, yeah, it's so much fun to see her in a role like that. Right. Yeah. She comes in, you know, just flawless and just, you know, starts, you know, stirring the pot a little bit.

[8:20] Eila Mell: Oh, my gosh. And, you know, also, Heather Alicia Sims is so good in this.

[8:25] Bruce Gotlieb: So fantastic. And you can you know, you can tell. And when I the other thing that I did love about this is the dynamic of, you know, how the mean girl aesthetic is perpetuated over time because these two women. Right. Were brought right back to when they were in the position that Danae Benton's character was in and these other girls. And it's like as successful as the headmistress is.

[8:52] Eila Mell: Yeah.

[8:52] Bruce Gotlieb: You know, the top of of her of what she could possibly do in her career. And yet she's knocked right back to being in eleventh grade again.

[8:59] Eila Mell: Right. And then she has such a moral dilemma. And, you know, what do you think of the decision she made?

[9:04] Bruce Gotlieb: I was surprised. I was surprised because I didn't I expected her to be very firm because that's how she is all play. But I also understood that she made the decision she did for the for the betterment of the of the program and of the school, because if not, does that even exist anymore? Well, maybe, but not those two girls.

[9:35] Eila Mell: It was like she made a deal with the devil.

[9:35] Bruce Gotlieb: It was. Well, yeah. No, I don't I don't disagree. So I was kind of in the middle like I could see both sides. But like, if that was me, you know, I don't know that I could have even made the decision.

[9:48] Eila Mell: Yeah, I don't think that the decision she made made her a bad person, but it was certainly not what you would expect.

[9:54] Bruce Gotlieb: No, it made you question, you know, all of the all of the rules that she imposes for the beginning of the play. Right. And and is it because she kind of favored the one girl? I don't know. Probably not. Probably not.

[10:06] Eila Mell: Probably not. But, you know, there's as much as, you know, trying very hard not to give anything away, but as hard as you're rooting is as mean as Denae Benton's character is and as mean as you like don't want to like her, you know, you get to that point in the play where all of that falls to the side and your heart breaks for her.

[10:30] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, and you're right there like you almost forget about all of the terrible, nasty things that she has said throughout the rest of the piece.

[10:41] Eila Mell: Yeah, exactly. And it's really funny. Yeah. I mean, not that scene, but no, no, of course. And, you know, of course, the rest of the girls are just everyone is is cast so perfectly.

[10:59] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, it's true. I mean, and everyone has a distinct personality. And, you know, each role is there because it represents a different part of, you know, of being a teenage girl. Right. And, you know, the girl there, they because the other stuff is so heavy.

[11:17] Eila Mell: Yeah, they bring so much light and so much comedy into it.

[11:17] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, it's yeah, you need it because otherwise you'd be like it'd be it probably wouldn't be a good a good play without that balance.

[11:29] Eila Mell: Right, exactly. And those girls just take it to the next level.

[11:29] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, absolutely. And without giving away a spoiler, I will say, for those of you that are like, why are these girls not singing? There's a moment that you get a little a little acapella treat.

[11:50] Eila Mell: I mean, if you want to hear Jasmine Amy Rogers sing, it's well worth the price of admission because she is incredible.

[11:56] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, in that moment. Yes. And the song they pick is fantastic, too.

[12:03] Eila Mell: Yes, I loved it.

[12:04] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. All right. Well, let's switch gears and get to our amazing guest, who also has, you know, a little a little touch of the funny in him.

[12:16] Eila Mell: A little. He is funny like no one else. He's definitely got his own style. And I love his pop culture references. And well, let's just bring him out. Let's talk to Kevin Zak.

[12:31] Bruce Gotlieb: Absolutely.

[12:35] Kevin Zak: Hi, I'm Jasmine Amy Rogers. You are listening to Behind the Awards. We'll be right back.

[12:42] Eila Mell: Well, Bruce, few people really feed into my love of pop culture like our guest today.

[12:50] Bruce Gotlieb: You know, it's just it's how I think I think in terms of, you know, like what happened on the facts of life and, you know, things like that. My favorite movies. So let's welcome Kevin Zak.

[13:01] Kevin Zak: Hello. Thank you so much for having me back, you guys. I love you both. Thank you. Thank you.

[13:07] Eila Mell: Well, the feeling is mutual. And when we were kind of, I guess, waiting for this, when we talked last time, you teased that this was something that was being developed. And when we saw the event, we were like, oh, my God, we have to have Kevin back on. But I'm so happy that we it is here and that we are here and can talk about it now.

[13:28] Bruce Gotlieb: But before we jump into what you're working on now, I have to say that you tackled the Holy Grail of pop culture when you did the reading of Mommy Dearest. Can you?

[13:40] Kevin Zak: That is true. Oh my gosh. With Leslie Kritzer, Leslie Rodriguez Kritzer as Joan. Amazing. Yes. Can you tell us about that? And will there be more of that?

[13:52] Kevin Zak: There will be. Yes. It's so it's produced by two great guys named James Berwind and Kevin Clark. And with their friend and our everyone's friend, Frank Dilella is helping sort of like, tie the bridges and do things like that. But it's I framed it in an interesting way because, you know, I love parodies. I've done parodies. I've been in parodies. I like breaking the form of parodies or just like, you know, you want to put something on stage and give it a reason or a different angle, you know, as opposed to just hitting the favorite parts of the film. And you can point to Marlon Mandel as the genius who's like, well, let's, you know, do this with Celine Dion as opposed to just doing Titanic. But I was thinking because I'm a fan of Faye Dunaway and I'm a fan of Mommy Dearest and Joan Crawford.

And I was like, OK, so what if we enter Mommy Dearest through Faye Dunaway's twenty twenty four HBO documentary? And so that Leslie in that reading was playing both Faye and Joan cutting in and out from the documentary, rehashing the movie, basically acting as her own defense lawyer as to why certain choices were made, why certain acting beats happened, things like that. And they go back and forth. And then there's a big twist at the end as well. But we had we had a phenomenal cast and there were I think Joel Wagoner is going to come on board and write some music for us and from Adam Carroll and their fame. And yeah, I'm excited for what's next. I think we're going to do another thing probably in the spring.

[15:35] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, yeah. It's like when you sit down, you know, to watch a movie or TV, I feel like you have like a pad and a pen next to you because you like that. What like the ideas that like go off the spark off in your brain from watching these, you have to get them all down.

[15:55] Kevin Zak: Well, I mean, I work pretty quickly. I so in a way, yes. But sometimes I just was like when I was asked to do Mommy Dearest, I was like, I, you know, I, of course, know the film. I have seen it at home or played clips in gay bars, things like that. But I was just like, you know what, as opposed to really sitting down too hard with this, let's see what I can do from memory and then compare and contrast and see. And I wasn't far off because the movie is so huge and there's the moments are so iconic. But I tend to be like, oh, I've got this framing device. Let me just see what I can get out of my brain first and then go back to the property and be like, oh, I know that this moment needs to be hit this this, you know, I can handle the socks, those kind of things like all those all those tent poles need to be hit along the way. But I generally like when I have an idea in my head, I kind of I puke out a first draft and at least I'm like, OK, now I've got foundation and then go from there along the road.

[16:54] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, I mean, I it's so it's just smart idea because the things that you remember is probably what everybody remembers.

[17:07] Kevin Zak: For sure. For sure. Oh, yeah. I'm not one of your fans.

[17:07] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, right. You know, do you both know Josh Lehman?

[17:15] Kevin Zak: Yes. He's Christina Crawford. And it's I mean, he'll win a Tony for one day. So funny. He is so funny. And he plays her at every age. And all that changes are the wigs get worse as she grows up.

[17:28] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, that is how it was in the movie.

[17:28] Kevin Zak: Exactly. Literally. Yeah. Oh my God. I love the face. Yeah. Joan makes when the photographer says, actually, Miss Crawford.

[17:40] Bruce Gotlieb: Yes. That's in the show, too, that we've made. Yeah, it's it's kind of it's really fun. And Leslie was absolutely brilliant. And whole cast was we had Olivia Puckett as Carol Ann, who Olivia Puckett is just a she's her own brand of comedy. I just am such a fan of hers.

[18:00] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, wow. All right. I mean, we could certainly go on and on about Mommy Dearest. But you have something in the works right now. That's so exciting, especially for movie fans right now. So it's called A Kidman Carol.

[18:14] Kevin Zak: It is. Yes. Oh my gosh. All right. Now you did a small version of this last year. Is that right?

[18:20] Kevin Zak: Yes. The past two years. So basically in 2024, I have a friend, Chris Hanley. He is the artistic director of the Alleyway Theater in Buffalo, which is a great theater in Buffalo, New York that's been around for decades. And he took over as artistic director about five, six years ago, somewhere in that range. But they've you know, they've always done things like Christmas Carol and shows that obviously keep the lights on and things like that. But they've also done a ton of new work from Buffalo playwrights from out of town for playwrights. They really take big swings at this small company in Buffalo, New York. And it's right downtown next to Shays, which is the big touring house. So it's like it's got great marquee value and things like that.

But he reached out and he was like, you know, if you ever want to workshop anything like we would love to have you back home in Buffalo. And I was like, I have this idea and I'm not sure if it's a show or a meme. That's quite a chasm. But I was like, it's this because I love a Christmas Carol. I love seeing a Christmas Carol when I was a kid. I could not wait to see how they would do the ghosts like I love seeing stage effects like that and being scared in a theater or being like you won't believe how they did this on stage. You know, I love that kind of stuff. And so I was like, well, what's what's what's a version of Christmas Carol that scratches that Dickensian thing, but also like a more Kevin Zack thing?

And I was like, well, what if what if we made it about awards season as opposed to the holiday season? And so the log line basically is the Oscar season Scrooge Cape Blanchett is visited by three spirits of Nicole Kidman in order to learn the true meaning of awards season. And so I pitched this to Chris in Buffalo and he's like, that's really funny. Like he's like, we should do it. And I was like, great, let's do it. And then it was on their season. And so then I was like, oh, so I've got to now write this by December. And it was, you know, they did it in their cabaret space workshop production. We did it in seven days with five actors to Jason Michael Snow was in it and Shannon Mullen both came from LA and New York.

And I was like, do you want to come to Buffalo and lose money for a month? And then we had three great local Buffalo actors. And at the alleyway couldn't have been more supportive. They couldn't like, you know, they're like, sure, we'll get that. Sure. I have that in my house. Let's bring it in. And we put it together. We ended up adding two shows and it was really, really fun and great. And then Ginger Twinsies happened that spring and summer fall. And that's when George Struss, my lead producer, Tony winning producer for Death of a Salesman last year and on O'Mary and all sorts of things coming up. They reached out to my agent. It was like, what else does Kevin have? And I was like, I have this show that, you know, it's kind of like a long sketch show right now.

And George loved it. And so we did a developmental run last year. And we asked, you know, we really wanted to come together quick and make it a scarcity and like five shows only. Who could we get to star that we know the gays will just go nuts? Of course, Marla Mindell. Yeah. And Josh Sharp. They both came on board. We did, I think, a total of seven shows last year at Ars Nova. Same sort of fashion. We rehearsed it very, very quickly. And when we announced, we sold out in an hour.

[21:45] Kevin Zak: Wow. And I do contribute that to the power of Marla Mindell and Josh Sharp. Like they are, you know, people, they are incredible and people love going to see them. And I think seeing them as Nicole Kimmon and Cate Blanchett may be sweetened the deal even a little bit more for some holiday fare. So, yeah, it just kept growing. And then, you know, afterwards, we did that production with the intention of coming back this year and a bigger theater and a more commercial run. And the long term goal is we can come back every year like A Christmas Carol does. And if Marla and Josh can't do it, we find other wonderful, incredible actors of any race, gender, whatever, to play these two characters. Because I think it's sort of like, if you can just get the energy right, you're in.

Right. So after that, I was saying to George, you know, I really want the Christmas Carol aspect to come into this. And I want people to leave not only blasting, hopefully, but being like, how did Marla Mindell appear out of nowhere? Like, how did she change costumes? Like, how did our version of Jacob Marley appear, you know? And so George was like, well, what about Skylar Fox, who is a big Broadway illusions designer, director, is doing great as showman, worked on Harry Potter, did, I think, paranormal activity. It does a ton of new works as well and directs in his own right. And I was like, I think that's a really great idea because Skylar just has this mind for spectacle on a high budget or spectacle on a low budget.

And we're kind of falling towards the, you know, off Broadway's end of that scale. But Skylar's mind is like, he just he figures things out in a way. And like, I directed Ginger Twinsies and I loved directing Ginger Twinsies. So like far slamming doors, love that's in my wheelhouse. But like, figuring out these these sort of technical magic moments is the brain I needed. My brain is just too smooth to do that kind of stuff. So Skylar's directing it and we've got Marla and Josh back on board and we're doing six weeks at New World Stages starting November 16th. We have a hard out December 30th. This is truly strictly limited engagement. So tell all your friends that like, don't wait for an extension announcement, anything like that. This is this is that we want to pack everybody in and hopefully be able to make it a yearly event.

[24:06] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, that is amazing. That's exciting. Thank you.

[24:10] Kevin Zak: Okay. Why Cate Blanchett and Nicole Kidman?

[24:15] Kevin Zak: That's see that I love that you asked that because that's what we what we've been working on this past year is really and Skylar's been a huge help with this is expanding the show because last year is only 60 minutes long. And so it was just like kind of you come and have dessert. Right. And this time we want people to come expecting dessert and get a full meal. And so we've really been working to have the show have that sort of huge Christmas carol message. Ours is more about the state of the industry, how it reflects on the state of the world. There's an AI message about it on an Oscars future. There's there's all sorts of things that really factor in. And this comes from me being just massive fans of Nicole and Kate, both of them.

I think they're both genuine movie stars. We always can't wait to see what they do next. But I also think they just have they're both from Australia. Yeah. Right. And and they're both Oscar winners. And they both kind of came up around the same time. And then in terms of just like fictionalizing a hair, if you take a look at their energies like Nicole is a red carpet girl, she's a press girl. She says yes to every limited series, every new thing. And and she makes it a point of saying, you know, I'm using my name to help get projects greenlit, you know, for she's especially, you know, trying to get female screenwriters, female directors, get everything greenlit because she knows that's what her name can do.

And Kate is still like she kind of straddles the line between like, you know, she'll do a Marvel movie every once in a while, but otherwise she's playing a lesbian who has a mental breakdown in some movie. So I've created this sort of thing where it's like Kate has this sort of like crossbow energy, right? She's always her characters are always like you are against me and I don't understand why. And so we have this amalgamation of Lydia Tarr, of her character from Notes on a Scandal, Elizabeth. Yeah. And making her this person where it's like she has to go through this press junket for her new movie that she's nominated for. She's having to do tick tocks. She's having to do subway takes and chicken shop date and all these things where she's like, what what happened to just the art of it all?

Like, why do I have to go through this parade and like be on a red carpet and have like a glam attack and like all these things? And she's she she craves conversations like this where we can talk about the show and the art of it. And and she's worried about the state of the business and the future of the business. And Nicole is the opposite.

[26:56] Kevin Zak: She's like, let's keep it positive. There's still so much magic. Just because these things are happening, doesn't mean you can't still make what you want to make. And so that's why I chose though that because Nicole just seems like ethereal and she is. She is to me like with the AMC ad, she is movie going. That AMC ad is worth the price of a movie ticket alone. Well, then you'll love her first entrance in A Kidman Carol for sure then. Is it in that white suit? It's so another testament and not that I don't want to give too much away, but Skylar Fox being the sort of MacGyver that he is, did find an AMC that was closing up and we may have taken all the seats. Amazing. So just there's going to be a lot.

What I'm very excited about is that you're coming to see obviously Marla Mindelle and Josh Sharp and our amazing cast do hopefully funny, silly stuff. But then you're like, Oh my God, I did not expect to have this magic element, this Christmas Carol element of like, there are people coming from pockets of the stage I couldn't see. And, you know, so I'm very excited for people to, it's just it's vastly different from Ginger Twinsies in that way where it is very cinematic, very spectacle based. And hopefully it's inspirational because, you know, a word a lot of people are kind of using to describe something they love nowadays is that's so stupid. You know, they love it and say that's so stupid.

And it's like, I love that phrase because it's just, it is like it gives a little bit of permission to be like, just go and put something up that you feel like needs to be said, even if it's stupid. Just do it. Because like, what else have we got but each other and ourselves? If you've got an idea, there are plenty of spaces in New York like Green Room 42 or Joe's Pub, like get some friends together and just put your stupid thing up because that's what we love. That's what we need. As you know, you go on Instagram and you're not sure which ad is AI and which isn't. So that's my long TED talk. Sorry about that.

[29:16] Bruce Gotlieb: I love that. And really at the heart of it, it is kind of a good question though, what you're posing, like why do actors have to go through all of those crazy things when really the art should speak for itself?

[29:27] Kevin Zak: Yeah, but it's and then, you know, there's the, like Nicole has the opposite side. She's like, you know, because you do that, someone who might not have heard about your small movie is now going to hear about it. And these people are wanting to help get awareness of this indie film that's not a big studio film or something like that. And that's the whole reason for press junkets like that is so that we all know that, you know, like that Nathan Fielder documentary that is going crazy right now, you know, it's like, I don't know if we would have heard about that doc 10 years ago without social media. You know, because like every post I'm seeing is about you can see everything. Yeah. And I'm like, well, now I feel like I must go see it while it's in theaters. And I don't think I've ever wanted to run to a theater for a documentary.

[30:18] Kevin Zak: I know, right. Very few. Yeah, right. Because there are a few, right? It's Spider-Man. And like you said, the Marvel movies, they don't need that, right? The people are showing yes, regardless. But yeah, that's, that's, that's exactly what we say in the show is like the show opens on a take on the opening of Tar, where Kate is being interviewed for her new movie at the 92nd Street Y. And he's like, well, you know, you're built in the people who saw your Marvel movie are probably not the same people who are seeing Tar. Right. And it's like Thor will have a built in audience. Right. Tar is going to take Kate Blanchett being in Tar for it to hit people's nerves. Right. Even to get made in the first place.

[31:04] Bruce Gotlieb: For real. Yeah. Just switching gears a little bit. How proud are you of Grace Ryder, who is from Ginger Twinsies, who is now a cast member of Saturday Night Live?

[31:15] Kevin Zak: She is. I just saw her last night. We were at Mitch Wood, who was also in Ginger Twinsies, had his solo show up and a bunch of us went and Grace was in the show for a minute and I got to chat with her for a while at the bar afterwards. I'm just so, so, so thrilled for her. She actually during Ginger Twinsies is when they brought her in the first time. Oh, wow. So last September, late August 2025, she had to miss four or five shows because she was showcasing screen testing. And then she met with Colin Jost and met with Lauren and kind of went through the whole gamut last year and they brought her back in again. And then she was on hold for all that fall. They kept her on hold, didn't cast her last season, brought her back in the screen test this season, and she got the job.

And what was really kind of I'll get a little emotional talking about it is, as she said, she's like, I don't think I would have been as prepared for Saturday Night Live if I didn't do Ginger Twinsies. Oh, wow. Because she she's like the quick changes, the stamina, the doing the repetition. She's like making sure each week and she's like, I've only done two weeks, but she's like, I she's like, I know that that show helped exercise a muscle that I don't know. I didn't have beforehand. She's like, because you get stand ups coming in SNL and they're not used to doing a show like this. It's theater. SNL is theater. It's a live audience. Right. It's quick changes. It's costumes. It's it's theater that happens to be live on television.

So I was just so, so thrilled for her. And I think she's going to get like I think she's going to walk away with the season. I think she's going to get an Emmy eventually out of it. Like she has so many characters of her own stockpiled that I know once that she's there for a little longer, they're going to start having her do them because she's already made such a splash. You know, she saved that Shane Gillis episode. Right. So, yes, I just I can't speak enough about her because she's she is so, so just genuinely a wonderful person that has that thing about she's she's a star. That's all I can say. Old school star. You could see it in Ginger Twinsies. She was just incredible.

[33:53] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, and she is she's killing it on Saturday Night Live. And also speaking of Ginger Twinsies, I know when we were talking about that show, you were like elated of like cast person after cast person of like the level that you were getting. And it was true. Like everyone on that stage was just killing it. But this morning they announced that Anissa Folds is going to be in Warriors. So like you got the proudest, like, I don't know, stage father in the world.

[34:13] Kevin Zak: It's truly, truly. That's exact. No, I'm so, so thrilled. I mean, Anissa has been attached to Warriors for years, but like Lynn has I mean, I'm so I also Anissa is just another star who I met her doing an out of town musical in 2021 or 2022. We just got along so well and stayed friends. And I started being like, will you do this silly reading for me? And she's like, of course. And I'm like, she's already in the Lin-Manuel camp from Freestyle Love Supreme and whatnot. And I like knew Warriors was happening. But of course, it was taking a couple workshops, a couple of years, as all things do. And then Lynn was just such a huge supporter of Ginger Twinsies. Like he sang our praises everywhere. And I'm now like, I am single handedly going to run Anissa's Tony. Excellent. Because she deserves it for I mean, I haven't seen Warriors at all. I haven't seen a drop of footage or any workshop. I just know that she's she's going to fucking kill it. We don't care.

[35:30] Kevin Zak: And so like, I'm just yeah, I I'm so thrilled for her. And I do feel like if you were saying like this group of actors that we had in Ginger Twinsies, I'm so grateful. They all said yes, I'm so good. And what I've heard from them, which makes me the most happiest is that they all got along and had a great time backstage. And they couldn't wait to come to work. And they couldn't wait to see each other. And they do the show and they'd go out together afterwards, all of them. So I was like, that's that's what I'm really, really happy about is that and I feel like that translated on stage is that they loved doing the show with each other. Yeah. So and especially like Anissa and Russell, just I couldn't believe they hadn't worked together before Ginger Twinsies.

And when they first met, we were doing like a social media video thing for before announcement. It was like they just started sparking like they had been together, you know, touring vaudeville in a past life, you know? Yeah, so I do feel I feel very excited for and there's a lot like I mean, the whole cast, like they are just I saw Lakeisha May on Law and Order the other night and like, they're all just killing it. Yeah. Well, Russell Daniels is one of the funniest people in the whole business. I, I will follow that man to the ends of the earth. I had another show I wrote had a one night reading this summer in August at the Matchbook Festival, which was a new play festival. It's called March Madness or Little Fucking Women.

And it is an I'm calling it a translation of Little Women. And it's basically all four March sisters are just absolute nightmares to each other and to the town. And Russell played Joe March. Amazing. And Hannah Solo played Meg March. And yeah, it was he's just he can do anything. Yeah, just so truthful on stage in his in his delivery that it's just like he and Philip Tarantula, who played Meredith Blake, they both will make the best choice on stage that you never would have thought of. But you're like, oh, there's no other choice than to deliver that line like that.

[37:46] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, you got to see Russell in Titanic, didn't you?

[37:46] Kevin Zak: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where that's where I saw him first. And I and this was a year before Ginger Twinsies almost and I was I was like, who is this person that is tearing the roof off the Daryl Roth Theatre? And literally, so then in our workshops, one of my dear friends, Josh Lehman, was playing Annie in Ginger Twinsies. And Josh was doing Death Becomes Her. And so he couldn't do Ginger Twinsies. And I immediately thought of Russell and was basically like, if we can, if he says like, it's no audition, like if he says, yes, I will please, please, please do this show, Russell Daniels. And he he did. And I yeah, I can. And him in that incredibly beautiful, custom made little tweed British outfit that Wilberth Gonzalez designed and built just for Russell.

Like it's I feel like that that image or that outfit should be in the Museum of Broadway, even though we were downtown in like the Orpheum. I was like that, that him in that to me is just that is theater, you know?

[38:56] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, speaking of Titanic, I know one of the things, you know, Marla always got asked was like, oh, is Celine Dion coming? Is Celine, you know, and she always said, well, we'd love her. You know, she has an open invitation anytime she wants. I'm assuming the same for Nicole and Kate should they decide to grace you with their presence.

[39:12] Kevin Zak: Absolutely. I mean, that would be hysterical if they if they had any interest in coming and be incredible. Like a dream of mine is, of course, that they do this show for like one night, you know, like a benefit, you know, a fundraiser of sorts like one night on Broadway. They play these roles like that's my, of course, dream for the show, because it isn't this I wouldn't call A Kidman Carol a parody because it's it's become so much of its own thing that it's this Christmas Carol adaptation in a way that we really only hit that the fact that there is a season that we need to learn about and a thing we need to learn about. And there are there's a Jacob Marley type role. And then there's the ghost of Oscars past, present and future.

And there's of course, we have our own version of Tiny Tim. We have our own Bob Cratchit. We have those kind of things. But it's really become it's its own play in a way, which sounds insane to say, of course, it's a play. It's going to be done in front of people. But it's I we've really expanded it, you know, into this. It is joke a minute, but at the same time.

[40:25] Kevin Zak: It's a call to arms as well. And so I do think Kate and Nicole might really like the message of the show. But like Marla said, like, you know, she had been doing Titanic for 10 years. And, you know, Celine and same with Ginger Twinsies, like Lindsay Lohan knew all about the show. Elaine Hendricks called her. She's like, I can't wait to see it. I can't wait to see it. And she never came. It's so hard to get these people, of course, who are obviously unbelievably busy. I can only assume to actually, you know, Meryl Streep never came to Death Becomes Her. So it's like it's Goldie Hawn did. So take that, Meryl. That's right. But it's like it's kind of they have to kind of, I feel like, come upon it on their own in a way. Unless, you know, you get Sally Field to see Oh Mary early on in the run downtown. But, you know, you almost have to use actresses like that, you know, of that age, too, because we don't really have movie stars anymore because of social media.

[41:27] Bruce Gotlieb: Huge, huge point in the show. Right. That is that is an excellent and true thing. It's like what is what is a movie star and what is fame and what what is the equation there? Right. What makes is it artists plus fame equals movie star? Is it, you know, like what is the equation there? And now with Instagram and TikTok, you can become famous for your algorithm. Right. Or for who's putting you in front of what. And sometimes that really, really gets us someone great like Grace Ryder. Sure. Like Ashby, who's going to be in Kidman, Carol, who came in and auditioned and just blew it out of the water. And it's like sometimes that tool really helps someone who might not get through the front door, build their own door and then kick it down, which I I love that. It's helped me as well. So it's it's a twofold thing.

[42:22] Kevin Zak: But it is like Kate, Nicole, Meryl, Viola Davis, Denzel Washington, like Tom. Those are movie stars and they're all above 50. Right. You know, and and and so like who who has the mantle next? Probably Anne Hathaway. But she still she started young enough where she was a star before Instagram. She was a star with Princess Diaries and whatnot. And and so it's so interesting to be like, OK, who is a flash in the pan and who gets it? And who is like, who has that that mentality of like, I'm going to you know, if I don't do this, I'm going to make this happen over here. And I feel like that really helps kind of make. Because why why this is my my what I love about movie going is like, oh, you hear about a movie and generally it's because of you want to see it because of either who wrote it.

Who is in it? Who directed it? You know, you like, oh, I want to see the next Kate Blanchett movie. I'll see her do anything. And it's like, how does I do that? You know, it's like I have no interest ever in seeing an A.I. movie because I go see things because I can't wait to see Anissa Folds in Warriors. Right. I'm watching Saturday Night Live again because Grace Ryder is on it. So it's like you you that's that is the whole spider web of things.

[43:51] Bruce Gotlieb: It's like I I love another one of my favorite actresses is Kate Winslet. Like I will see her do anything, you know. And so it's it's that formula of like. That's what gets us to turn the TV on usually. Yeah. Is is and that can extend to something that was created like Batman. You know, that was created by a human. So it's like you can count that as well as like I will see the next Batman movie. It's but Batman's been around for 80 years. I love Batman, you know, and I can't. And if they get a new actor, I love even more to see it. Right. So that's that's my whole thought on that is like we we go usually go see things in the theater because of who's in it or who was involved.

[44:37] Kevin Zak: And I think that's that's kind of the like my husband and I went to see Practical Magic 2 in theaters two or three weeks ago. And it was so great. It was perfect. It was so great. It was seeing those two seeing Stockard, seeing Diane. Yeah. Like being in a theater that was packed. It was just like we we it's community. It's it's it's there's a relationship there. It was the sequel. It was the sequel. I didn't know I needed. Exactly. Exactly. And that in a way like that's what they've been saying on the press tours is like in a way people like like fans like me kind of made that movie come to fruition because it became. And we can thank social media for that. Right. It is like there's it's a double edged sword where it's like so many people younger than than us discover practical magic online.

Right. You know, when someone would post a 20 second clip of Sandra Bullock blowing in a candle. Yeah. And then they're like, what movie is this? And then suddenly, you know, three decades after the original film, there's there's a sequel with the entire cast. Right. So it's it's but it's all human said. Right. It's all humans making this happen.

[45:53] Bruce Gotlieb: It's humans being like, I love practical magic. Give us a sequel. Give us a sequel. Boom. Practical magic to hocus pocus to. And yes, there's the argument of like of like, are we rehashing? Are we doing things? I'm at the point where I'm like, if it's human, great. Well, that's the thing we love. You know, people love things that are familiar and that feel like home. So we'd love to revisit things, especially after, you know, 20 years. That's the sweet.

[46:20] Kevin Zak: Absolutely. Yeah. I find it fascinating. I do think like if a character strong enough, I would love to know what they're doing 30 years later, because I I love not to quote Nicole, but I love the heartbreak of of time and age and things like that and how it affects people, even characters that especially that you like. I could talk your ears off. I'm so sorry.

[46:38] Bruce Gotlieb: No, we love it. Like I I the new Jumanji movies. Oh, my God. There's. Yeah. So I love love the originals. So the original movie of Robin Williams and Bonnie Hunt and Kirsten Dunst and David Alan Greer and all like these fantastic actors. And, you know, I have three nieces and I watched I was like, oh, they want to watch the new Jumanji. They have no they don't get it. They don't get it. And I watched the second new one with them. And spoiler alert, but at the end of the movie, there's a cameo from it from Bebe Neuwirth, who was in the original as her character, Aunt Nora. And it's like only the parents or the uncles and aunts or whoever would know the significance of Bebe Neuwirth showing up at the end of this movie.

And I started crying. Oh, wow. I was like, I was like. This is Aunt Nora, this is Bebe Neuwirth, who I saw in theaters for my brother's birthday around Christmas 1995. And I remember being like, oh, that's the lady from Frasier. Oh, I listened to her, you know, I listened to her on cast albums. And then, you know, fast forward, I'm in my late 30s blubbering at the end of Jumanji to welcome to the jungle because they've had Aunt Nora come on, come on screen and be that same character, you know, a little older, a little more lonely. But that was the that was the heart of it of was is just it brought in the parents at the end of the film and being like, so I love that kind of stuff. I'm all for it. I might be in the minority, but like I want to know what they're up to, because those especially those family movies back in the 90s, like they were always about something more than the adventure.

[48:32] Kevin Zak: Like Mrs. Doubtfire was about divorce. Right. And and even Honey, I Shrunk the Kids were about parents who were separated that came back together to find their kids. So it's like there's always that extra layer that I feel like is now starting to come back a little bit in in films, which I really, really love is like the what is the core relationship in the film or the thing that we're trying to say is OK or like Mrs. Doubtfire was like divorce is OK. Right. You know, and and that was a big swing for the early 90s. Yeah. And they told it through a comedy of errors and like a Twelfth Night sort of. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

[49:12] Bruce Gotlieb: But we grew up with we grew up with shows or movies or TV, whatever construct we like to special message your. Yeah. And it wasn't even and it wasn't heavy handed, you know, it was like it was it was truly like for the parents or whatever. And then you revisit it later in your life and, you know, Jumanji, Bonnie Hunt has this line where she's like, nobody believed me. And I was like, oh, my God, that is just such a huge thing in our lives and our culture and our politics is nobody believed me, you know. And I was like, that's such a heart crushing line of dialogue, even though what no one believed her is that her friend got sucked into a board game when she was 10. But it's still like she played it so truthfully that you're like, oh, my gosh, Bonnie Hunt should have gotten an Oscar for Jumanji.

[50:03] Kevin Zak: You know, I myself would love to know what Judy is doing in 2026. Right. Right. I completely like I'm I love that kind of stuff. So, you know, I bet she's really successful. I bet she's having a great time. Probably not an actress, though.

[50:25] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. All right. So I have to ask you this. I know we're keeping you a long time, but what are you watching now that you're excited about?

[50:43] Kevin Zak: I who? Yeah, that's a that is a good question. So I am a huge fan. Like, I am a superhero fan. Like, I grew up with the X-Men. But there was something about WandaVision that really hit home for me. And I think it's kind of a combo of everything we've been talking about where it's like it did borrow from old sitcoms and 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s television. That that I because I love television and and to see it represented in a way with a superhero franchise, making the move into TV and using the medium of TV to help adapt it through the lens of sci fi and fantasy because you get you've got superheroes and you've got witches. So it's like the cross genre thing. So right now, I'm like, I'm like all vision quest right now.

I like it's it's the closing of the trilogy. And I just there's something about the grief of that trilogy between WandaVision Agatha all along in this where it's like the again, the baseline message is grief in those. And I just think that's so, so powerful.

[51:59] Bruce Gotlieb: But in other things, I mean, I am glad when now I really am. I love lanterns, too. So I guess I'm a superhero.

[52:08] Kevin Zak: You are.

[52:09] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[52:10] Kevin Zak: Are you a horror guy at all?

[52:13] Bruce Gotlieb: You know, I am. And and oh, gosh, I really could talk your ears off about this. It just it's very emotional for me because I do love I love good movies and TV, but I'm a fan of of more classic horror and stuff. So like I love the original Halloween because there's not a drop of blood in it now. That's what I love about it. And then I love love poltergeist because I the the relationship of the parents in it between I forgot their names right now, coach and JoBeth Williams and Craig T. Nelson.

[52:46] Kevin Zak: Yes, exactly. Yes. Is so romantic. Yeah. And it's so sexy in a way around this extremely scary, supernatural thing. They have this love and protection for each other and their family and they believe each other. And they like I. So, yeah, I am a fan of horror, mainly of of horror films that are not using gore to scare you. So like like the original Halloween, like poltergeist, I like suspense and things like that. Yeah. Have you seen the new Carrie? No, I want to. I need to start that. It's very interesting. It's it's good. But it's it takes place now. So it's really interesting how they navigate. It's good.

[53:31] Kevin Zak: OK, I'll start it tonight. Yeah. Yeah, because I do love the original. I love. Yeah. They like the I and I tend to start rewatching all of them around this time of year to the original. The original Black Christmas is terrifying. No, it's so scary. So, yeah, I'll definitely start watching Carrie. And I can't not camp just camp.

[53:52] Kevin Zak: Crystal Lake is really good, too.

[53:53] Eila Mell: Crystal Lake, yeah.

[53:54] Kevin Zak: With Linda Cardellini, yeah.

[53:56] Eila Mell: I was Mrs. Voorhees for Halloween one year in my early 20s. I mean, I don't know how old Betsy Palmer was when she made the movie, but she looked 75.

[54:06] Kevin Zak: So, you see, Linda Cardellini. That was like the time.

[54:09] Eila Mell: I know. They're all smoking. They're all using so much hairspray.

[54:12] Kevin Zak: I know. So, it was like the effect of all that. She was probably 32.

[54:17] Eila Mell: I know. I know, but obviously, Linda Cardellini looks like a baby compared.

[54:23] Kevin Zak: Yeah.

[54:24] Eila Mell: Yeah.

[54:25] Kevin Zak: For sure. But I'll watch. Linda Cardellini is another one I'll watch, too. And she's so good.

[54:29] Eila Mell: I know. Well, she's great. I'm in the middle of it. So, it's so good.

[54:33] Kevin Zak: Oh, okay. Well, now I've got things to do.

[54:35] Eila Mell: I know. Things to watch tonight.

[54:38] Kevin Zak: Listen, Kevin, you know.

[54:39] Eila Mell: Yeah.

[54:40] Kevin Zak: Get with it.

[54:41] Eila Mell: Get with it. You're way too busy producing amazing plays.

[54:44] Kevin Zak: So, all right. Let's get down to business. When can people get tickets for A Kidman Carol?

[54:52] Kevin Zak: Right now.

[54:53] Eila Mell: Okay.

[54:54] Kevin Zak: Yes. A KidmanCarol.com. We've got really great price tickets. Like we, like George Struss and my lead producer and our general management have worked really hard to keep our prices low for this because that is, you know, everyone's legitimate main, you know, concern right now is things are so pricey and we've got $48 tickets. So, like come on down to New World Stages and come to the basement and see something that reminds you that you should make things. And even if you're not sure about it, even if you feel insecure about what you've made, you should just try and you should just put it up because you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know what could happen, both positive and negative.

It's like you could put it up and you could have someone in the audience that loves it and wants to take it on. Or you could put it up and just start getting the name out in a way. But yes, A KidmanCarol.com. We start previews November 16th. We open November 30th and we are done, done, done December 30th. So it is like you have six weeks to see this incredible cast. We have two more actors and our two understudies we're going to announce on Sunday when we start rehearsals. Once you see who else is in the cast, if Marla and Josh and Ashby didn't convince you, you will be kicking yourself if you don't get a ticket soon. Because these people, our five people on stage and our two covers are all just stars. So I'm so grateful they all said yes. And let me point out that these are lottery prices and you don't even have to go through the lottery process.

[56:32] Eila Mell: Yes.

[56:34] Kevin Zak: And we're going to have Rush. So it's like we're going to have like deals and things like that on top of that. So it's, you know, and it's a small theater. So it's like there's not a bad there's no bad seat. So it's like if your forty-eight dollar ticket is in, you know, the balcony, the balcony is it's five feet off the ground. It's like a step stool.

[56:55] Eila Mell: It's a step.

[56:56] Kevin Zak: It really is. Like there's no bad seat in that in that great theater. And it's kind of cool to do this show. And what used to be a movie, I was going to say, it seems perfectly perfectly placed.

[57:08] Eila Mell: Yeah. And it feels like a movie theater, too, with all the different theaters. I love it. It's like just a world of theater you go into.

[57:13] Kevin Zak: It truly is. It's a cineplex, you know, and we have a show about the movies and it's really what the movies because my brothers and I, we watch the Oscars like it was the Super Bowl growing up. My brother Danny would make a ballot on our, you know, giant desktop, huge computer printed out. And we would make a cake and we like have yellow icing on it to make an Oscar statue. And it was like the yearly thing. And growing up in Buffalo in a very, very non-showbiz family, that was like the window, right? That was where you were like, I almost couldn't even grasp that people were doing this and making money doing this.

[58:00] Eila Mell: Yeah.

[58:01] Kevin Zak: You know, I was like, this just seems like so much fun and such a fantasy. Like when Billy Crystal would enter and do his huge opening number, like when he entered on the Titanic, you know, or when Whoopi Goldberg came down from the ceiling as a teen in Moulin Rouge, like those things I was like, and it was live and it was, you know, it what I would sit and just be enthralled. And you know, that's where I feel like my knowledge for useless information starts where I would like study who won Best Actress in the 70s and things like that after that. And I can't do my taxes, but I can tell you that that is important.

[58:40] Eila Mell: I get it.

[58:42] Kevin Zak: But yeah, it is really about that feeling of going to the movies or watching something and realizing that the Oscars and all awards ceremonies may have like an air of superficial superficialness or capitalism even. But it's like these are people gathering together to celebrate art made by people who gathered together to make that art. It's like that is maybe not going to be around forever. So it's like if we don't care about these awards ceremonies, which is like maybe a loaded thing to say, but like, what if they go away?

[59:20] Eila Mell: Right.

[59:21] Kevin Zak: Right. That'd be terrible. And then that and then you don't get that Tony Award. You don't get that. I mean, that helps your career, helps that other thing get made. Or they're just like, well, let's just use AI, you know, because no one's watching these award ceremonies anymore or going to them. So why have them? OK, great. So what are what? Why release movies around Christmas? Who cares? You know, like who? Why take it to TIFF? Why take it to Telluride? Why take it to Cannes? Like it's it's a domino effect in a way where it's, you know, it's a superficial material thing. But at the same time, it's you have that kid and Buffalo who's like, oh, that's how my brain works. I can't like I can't be a nurse or a doctor.

I don't have the brain for that. I don't have test taking skills, but I know I can do something like that. You know, I could put a wig on and I mean, I can get on a stage and I can make people laugh or make people cry or whatever. So it's it's it's a kind of a layered message in terms of like we're using awards ceremonies to stave off the robot takeover.

[1:00:28] Eila Mell: Well, yeah. And, you know, just to piggyback on that, I will never give you a fresh idea. It can only regurgitate what it already has seen. So it might be giving you your idea that you had at some point along the way, I know, which is why I'm so grateful for what your podcast is called Behind the Awards. Because it is it's truly like we have these and I consider like, you know, like I was saying, like film festivals are those kind of things, too, because they give out awards at those those things, Sundance and whatnot and stories that might not break through otherwise get that extra bump and press, you know, that might get it from a bigger distribution company to pick it up and give it to just every city around the globe.

So it's it's kind of a weird thing to target in terms of being like, how does the Emmys, the Oscars, the Golden Globes stave off AI? And it's because it's well, it's people, it's people celebrating art made by people. And yes, it's there's politics and awards and, you know, people buy awards. But like you get someone up on stage to give this speech that does change somebody's life. It could be as simple as, you know, Michelle Yeoh being the first Asian woman to win Best Actress or it could be Elaine Stritch winning an Emmy for At Liberty and just being absolutely hysterical in her speech and seeing a woman in her late 70s, you know, beat out Jon Stewart, beat out Ellen DeGeneres and be like, I still count as well and I can still make things and I am in my 70s. And it can also be a lifeline for so many people.

Like when John Glenn's won for Torch Song Trilogy and talked about his lover, which no one did at the time. And that, oh, that's that showed so many kids out there, you know, who didn't know that they weren't the only ones.

[1:02:25] Eila Mell: Yes, that is that's invaluable that that moves mountains for kids and in smaller towns or in bigger towns like it's that kind of moment if they catch it. It's it does everything. And what happens if it goes away? Right.

[1:02:40] Kevin Zak: You know, and we're in real danger. We're in real danger. Like the Oscars are moving to YouTube. The Emmys are moving to Prime. Like they're getting further away from accessibility in a way. It's like you have to now have a computer or a phone to watch these things and have to get a subscription to these things. And I think the Oscars might be free on YouTube, but it's still like you kind of need to teach some people how to like a hundred percent. You know, I knew my some of my family would be like, what's YouTube?

[1:03:09] Eila Mell: Right.

[1:03:09] Kevin Zak: How I thought I could just turn on the TV and watch the Oscars, you know?

[1:03:13] Eila Mell: Well, right. Because what what brought us all together, there's so few things that we do together and that the Super Bowl and the Oscars are like the two things that we can all just put the TV on and be together for.

[1:03:24] Kevin Zak: Right.

[1:03:24] Eila Mell: Right. And it's live. And you can't, you know, yes, you can do the art, I suppose. But it's still like that. It's that real time thing.

[1:03:33] Kevin Zak: Yeah. But I also feel like because my friend Jason Michael Snow had lunch with Bruce Falanche a couple of months ago and he was like, so how are you feeling about the state of things, this merger, what all of all of the above? And Bruce apparently said he's like, you know, honestly, this feels like the 1970s when the studio system first cracked open. He's like, I think a lot of exciting things are going to be made and rise to the top. And you can kind of see that in the past year, like Obsession or, you know, or this Nate Fielder documentary, like he was saying, because the contract system fell apart in the late 60s, we got all these killer indie movies in the 70s, you know, where people just made what they wanted to make. And so I don't think you could ever stop people from making things. I'm sure you can stop them from, you know, getting on a bigger platform, but people are going to keep trying because like, well, what else are we going to do?

[1:04:40] Eila Mell: Right.

[1:04:42] Kevin Zak: Just sit and take it. No, it's like we're going to get on it. We're going to have a podcast about it. We're going to talk to each other. We're going to share it and we're going to make the next thing if this thing doesn't work and just that's all we can really do. We're going to make A Kidman Carol.

[1:04:47] Eila Mell: That's right.

[1:04:47] Kevin Zak: We're going to make A Kidman Carol.

[1:04:59] Eila Mell: Exactly. Well, and that's like you said, one of the things like they bring you to go to a movie or do all these things. You have a killer cast assembled, but I know for Eila and I, and we're not just saying this because you're in front of us, we said this face to face and on the phone. You also, your writing is the funniest. Like if you're attached to a project, we know it's elevated. It's going to be hilarious. So we're so excited to hear your words.

[1:05:29] Kevin Zak: I went to see the Muppet Magic show because you were part of that.

[1:05:36] Eila Mell: Oh, talk about flash in the pan.

[1:05:39] Kevin Zak: No, that means the absolute world. Thank you.

[1:05:41] Eila Mell: Thank you both for saying that.

[1:05:44] Kevin Zak: We know if you're writing something, we're safe and we are going to laugh more than we've ever laughed. It's all of the things.

[1:05:55] Eila Mell: Thank you so much. That means the absolute world. Is there any chance that there will be another production of Ginger Twinsies at some point?

[1:06:03] Kevin Zak: Yes. I can't say too much right now, but I can just say yes, there will be. And to keep an eye on our social media in terms of that, that's another wonderful way to like that's the other side like, well, I can we can promote this show via social media. So yes, I am excited. There's something planned for 2027. So as soon as that's confirmed, I'll email you guys.

[1:06:35] Eila Mell: But OK, so just pick a date because, you know, we can't wait to talk about it.

[1:06:43] Kevin Zak: We'll have you back.

[1:06:44] Eila Mell: Thank you so much for spending so much time with us. We love talking to you.

[1:06:49] Kevin Zak: Thank you.

[1:06:49] Eila Mell: And thank you for like making this happen so soon and having it come out so soon. You are both amazing and you've been so wonderfully, incredibly supportive of everything. I'm just so grateful. And sorry, I like talked your ear off about.

[1:07:04] Kevin Zak: We could have kept talking.

[1:07:08] Eila Mell: We love it.

[1:07:09] Kevin Zak: And our audience loves it.

[1:07:10] Eila Mell: And well, thank you, Kevin. And we'll see everyone next time on Behind the Awards.

[1:07:15] Kevin Zak: Bye bye.