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[0:01] Robert W. Schneider: Hi, I'm Rob Schneider, and on behalf of myself and Kevin David Thomas, welcome to BEHIND THE CURTAIN, Broadway's Living Legends. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Broadway Curtain Podcast. Plus, you can always listen to all of our episodes, old and new, on the Broadway Podcast Network, iTunes, and Spotify. Today's guest is a trailblazer in the American theater. While many trailblazers are responsible for creating one new path, today's guest has created multiple, and the ramifications of what he created will be felt for generations to come. From creating and fostering a stronger American regional theater scene to demanding diversity be a driving force both on and off the stage, our guest has led the fight at a time when very few leaders even recognized there was a fight to be had.

And now he has put his journey into literary form with the incredible new book, My Own Directions, A Black Man's Journey in the American Theater, which traces his time as the artistic director of the Pasadena Playhouse, director of such Broadway shows as Play On and Blues in the Night, as well as monumental works at the Pasadena Playhouse, including Fences with Laurence Fishburne and Angela Bassett, Kiss Me Kate, 12 Angry Men, and so many others. To tell us what it was like doing all of these amazing things, here is the one and only Sheldon Epps. Sheldon, thank you so much for joining us today.

[1:22] Sheldon Epps: Well, thank you, and thank you for that great introduction. I feel like I have so much to live up to now. Thank you so much for your incredible body of work. Okay, so 20 years ago, you could have written an autobiography and had so much material in there. So why now? Why now did you want to put your life story on paper?

[1:40] Sheldon Epps: Well, there were a couple of things that happened. When I stepped down from my position at Pasadena Playhouse in 2017, a lot of people started to say, well, you know, you should write a book, you should write a book. And I said, oh, please, who should write a book? But people kept saying that. And at a certain point, if enough people say that, you start to think, oh, well, I should write a book, you know. And I did think about it and realized that I had a very specific journey in the American theater and at Pasadena Playhouse and a story to tell. And then I went on and did other things and directed here and there and went back to directing television and all of that. And then this little thing called the COVID pandemic hit and put us all at home for all that time and said, don't leave the house.

So I actually had the time to do it. And I said to myself, self, you better use this time now if you're ever going to get this book done. And along with that, as you well know, shortly after the pandemic started, the Black Lives Matter movement started. And in particular, there were a lot of direct conversations and blogs and all of that about racism in the American theater. And I realized that that was certainly something that I had dealt with and that I had a story to tell that corresponded to some of the things that I was hearing. And even more than that, it occurred to me that many of the things that I was hearing that were being spoken about more openly during that time were things that I had been talking about for 10, 20, 30 years. So all of that motivated me to really sit down and start the book.

[3:43] Robert W. Schneider: Why do you think 30 years ago, nobody was taking it as seriously as we are now? 20 years ago, 10 years ago, I would even say five years ago, if you would agree or disagree with that. But why now? Why now is the conversation starting to move?

[3:57] Sheldon Epps: Right. I do agree with that. I think the conversations were, I'll call them muted. I'll say that there were few of us having the conversation. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that for many, many years, the American theater as a field sort of patted itself on the back and said, oh no, we don't, there's no racism in the American theater. That's not a problem for us. It's a problem for many other occupations and other fields, but no, we're, we're, we're very liberal. We don't have that problem. And I think the Black Lives Matter movement as a whole sort of opened the door to a greater kind of honesty and a greater kind of directness and a greater truthfulness. And also by that time, there were many more people of color running institutions.

So there was safety in numbers, I think, you know when I was coming along and when Kenny Leon was an artistic director and George Wolfe, you know, there were only three of us or there was only one of us, you know, suddenly there was safety in numbers and many more voices to be raised so that nobody could say that it was a personal thing. You know, we were speaking on behalf of the field and not for ourselves, you know, because we all have had great careers and, you know, we don't have anything to be angry about, but we were speaking on behalf of those who have been deprived in ways that we were at one time and that we had to overcome those challenges.

[5:41] Robert W. Schneider: And when you and Kenny and George were all running these theater companies independently of each other, was there a lot of commiserating between the three of you or did you find yourselves in a fraternity going, this is happening at my theater, is it happening at yours, what are you doing to improve it, et cetera, et cetera?

[5:54] Sheldon Epps: You know, I think because there were few of us and because those conversations had not been ignited, though we're all familiar with each other and talk to each other, we didn't talk a lot about that. You know, our, I think our point of view was, okay, this exists. We know this exists. Now let's get to work. Let's do the work and let's prove that it shouldn't exist. So I think that's where we put our efforts was trying to do great work at our theaters, try to produce great work, direct great work, and take away the reasons that anybody had to be prejudiced against leaders of color.

[6:45] Robert W. Schneider: During the beginning of the Black Lives Matter movement, which it was happening as the pandemic was also occurring, how did you artistically satisfy yourself and how did you artistically communicate what you were feeling when your primary mode of communication was taken away because of the pandemic?

[6:55] Sheldon Epps: Well, I started writing the book, number one, because I had the time and the space to do that. So that was difficult, but satisfying and creative in its own way. I'm on the board of a foundation called the Ten Chimneys Foundation. And the Ten Chimneys Foundation got together with Black Theater United and held a long convening. I think it was a week long with really about 85 of the biggest theaters in America and with the members of Black Theater United. And that was really a soul searching time, a time of really deep communication, really honest communication. A lot of people got angry. A lot of people got upset. There were a lot of, a lot of tears. There was also a lot of laughter, but some rage, some anger, all of that.

So that was valuable for all of us as a way to use that time, as I say, to confront something really directly and really honestly and really openly. And people listened. I have to say that people listened and I do feel that since then, there are things that have and will change even more in the next many years.

[8:20] Robert W. Schneider: What are some of the things that excite you that you are seeing being changed? And we'll even go further in the next couple of years.

[8:25] Sheldon Epps: Yeah. Well, as I said, you know, when George, George was an artistic director and I was, and Kenny was, that was it. Literally, there were three of us. And then when George went on to work commercially and Kenny did, there was one of us, there was me for a long time. And that was it. We have artistic directors, men and women of color at many, many more theaters now, Nataki Garrett and Hana Sharif, Stephanie Ibarra, Robert Barry Fleming, you know, all successfully and happily running theaters. I can't say happily every day right now because it's so challenging for theaters, but successfully, you know, there's, there's a much larger group. There's a larger group of people in, in administrative positions as well, you know, executive directors, managing directors.

So that's been a huge change. Theaters are certainly much more conscious of audience outreach and developing new audience and really understanding that every community in a city, every community in America should have ownership of these theaters. You know, there was a long time when there was no encouragement for people of color to come to a lot of these theaters. And they really have come to understand that there's, there's something you have to get over. If you want somebody to come into your house, but the door has been shut for a long time, you're going to have to do some extra work to make people feel comfortable and to feel that they have ownership of the space as they should.

[10:18] Robert W. Schneider: And what are some things that theaters and theater practitioners can be doing to be creating and fostering a space like that?

[10:25] Sheldon Epps: Well, first and foremost, it begins with the programming. It depends on the work that you're doing on the stage. You know, people want to see work that reflects their own lives and that has something to do with their own lives. And, and then if they get in the habit of going to the theater, they'll go to see anything and everything, which is great. Marketing is really important. I believe that the theater actually for a long time, we're getting much better for a long time. We were way behind about using social media and anything other than a printed review in a newspaper to let people know that a show was running. You know, you, you got to market, you got to go to the community. You've got to go to churches, got to go to sorority meetings, fraternity meetings.

You got to go to organizations like the Jack and Jill and say, really, we want you here. I am here to tell you that we want you here. And, and frankly, hiring more people of color on the staff is a really big step, you know.

[11:32] Sheldon Epps: Not just on stage, but off stage as well.

[11:32] Robert W. Schneider: Exactly right. Exactly right. I mean, we've, we've been seeing faces of color on stage and on screen for, for a good long time, but we haven't seen faces of color in, in the executive offices, you know, as the development directors, as managing directors. So when, when those communities see that the theaters are actually employing people in all of those positions, that makes a difference. You know, I used to have artistic directors come out to Pasadena Playhouse and they'd look at our audience and they'd say, oh my God, you have such a wonderfully diverse audience. How do you do this? How, how can I make this happen? And sometimes I would say, well, you're going to have to give up your job and hire somebody who looks like me.

[12:53] Sheldon Epps: I got on a bus from Compton and took the long, long road from Compton to Pasadena, and I saw a play called A Member of the Wedding with, talking about Broadway legends, with Miss Ethel Waters, one of the last times that she performed on stage. So, Pasadena Playhouse was the theater where I discovered the magic of theater. You know, to be a better story, I said, that was the day that I committed to a life in the theater. But it is the day that I fell in love with going to the theater. So, the theater has always had a place in my heart for that reason. And then I came back here and started directing, initially, as a freelance director at the Playhouse. It's a beautiful facility. It's a gorgeous, gorgeous theater.

And the theater is right here in the center of Los Angeles, you know? And I was aware by that time that there were lots of people who had moved out here to do film and television, but who loved working in the theater. You know, people who'd lived in New York and studied in New York and all of that, but came out here to do film and television. So, I just knew that if we put some effort into focusing on the artistry of the theater in this grand and glorious Playhouse, there was no reason that it couldn't at least strive to be a great theater. As I've said, that was always my aim, to make it a great theater. And it's for others to say whether it became a great theater or not, but it did have moments of greatness, that I know.

It did become a great theater. It did. I will validate as a loyal subscriber. Thank you. Thank you. So, I just knew that the resources were here to make it a great theater. And I love Los Angeles, you know? As I said, I'm from here, so it's my hometown, and I've always loved it here. And I wanted there to be another great theater in Los Angeles.

[15:08] Sheldon Epps: I want to go back a little bit, if I can. What made you get on that bus in the first place to go see Member of the Wedding? My mother and father. My father was a Presbyterian minister, and he had a very big congregation out here. And he firmly believed, and my mother believed, that exposure to the arts was a major part of the upbringing of anybody, but specifically for young Black kids, because it was a Black church, Black congregation. He absolutely believed in that. He was a music lover. My mother was a theater lover. And so, every Saturday, or almost every Saturday, we would get on a bus to somewhere, and we would go to see symphony concerts. We would go to see dance concerts. We would go to museums to see art shows. So, they, thank God, they were just of a belief that arts exposure was a big part of young people's education.

[16:19] Sheldon Epps: And how important is that, to have had that kind of exposure that early? So, when you looked at them and said, hey mom, hey dad, I'm going to go be an actor, they were supportive with this decision? They got around to being supportive. I mean, that was pretty, you know, I wanted to be a lawyer for most of my youthful years, but did announce in senior year of high school that, you know, this thing I'd been doing as a hobby, I thought I really wanted to do. And they came around to saying yes, but they also said, you do have to go to college and get a degree. You can't go just across the river and go to HB Studios or American Academy or one of those places. You have to go to college and get a degree. And that's what led me to applying to Carnegie Mellon, where I got a bachelor's degree in fine arts.

[17:13] Sheldon Epps: Do you come from a big family? Do you have a lot of brothers and sisters? One brother, one sister. Are they also in the arts or have they pursued? No, no, not at all. However, as I said, my father was a preacher and, you know, loved music and loved language and used drama in his Sunday services. So, I think I said, I don't come from a theater background, but I am the son of a preacher and an actor. It feels pretty theatrical. It feels pretty.

[17:43] Sheldon Epps: So, when did the switch happen from being on stage to being behind the scenes and creating the world for the audience? About six or seven years after I graduated from Carnegie and worked as an actor and did okay. You know, I was on soap operas and did some commercials and a lot of regional theater and off Broadway. I was doing fine as an actor. I was making a living, you know, but a little unsatisfied, a little, I felt hungry for more. Yes, artistically. And frankly, to be a little bit more in control of my destiny, which actors are not for the most part. So, I started a theater with four people that I'd been to Carnegie with. And one of the four was a really great director named Norman Renee, who did all of Craig's early work and did marry me a little with Craig very early on.

But Norman was a great director. And we, in this small little theater company on 18th Street in Chelsea, we frequently had trouble finding directors that we loved. So, Norman came to me one day and quite generously said to me, you know, when I direct you and we disagree about something, I usually think that you are right, though I might not admit it at the time. But I usually come back to what you've said two or three days later and pretend it was my idea. So, he said, I think that means that you really think like a director. So, why don't you try directing since we're always having trouble finding directors and we know each other. So, if we disagree, we can argue more comfortably about a thing. And I said, oh, okay, well, that makes sense. And I very modestly started with a production of A Midsummer Night's Dream.

[19:49] Sheldon Epps: A Midsummer Night's Dream. Very good. Good. And took to directing right away and actually started working as a director, started working at Manhattan Theater Club and Playwrights Horizons. And shortly after I started directing, I did this little cabaret show called Blues in the Night that was intended just for really five or six performances as a late night cabaret that eventually, as you know, wound up on Broadway and then in London and was produced all over the world. And that became kind of a calling card for me as a director. That and the chance to work at the Guthrie Theater in Minneapolis were really the things that launched my directing career.

[20:39] Kevin David Thomas: And you got to work under or with, I should say, Garland Wright. Is that correct?

[20:45] Sheldon Epps: Yes.

[20:48] Kevin David Thomas: What is something that you learned from Mr. Wright that you still take with you today when you go into a rehearsal?

[20:51] Sheldon Epps: A couple of things. First and foremost, to trust the directors that you hire. If you're going to love a show, a project so much that you can't see it directed any way, but the way you would direct it, direct it yourself. You know? Yes, yes. Otherwise, let a good director do what a good director does and just help that person to do what they do. This was a great lesson. Interestingly, my production at the Guthrie was a production of Death of a Salesman with a Black Lowman family. Garland invited me to do that and I did direct that a good 30 years before the current production. Who was your Willie Lowman? A man named Mel Winkler, who'd been in a couple of the August Wilson plays. Yes, yeah. Mel Winkler played Willie Lowman.

And Isabel, Izzy, I can't think of her last name, was a beautiful Linda Lowman. Wonderful. But anyway, Garland came to the first rehearsal, first run through of the show and didn't have a notepad. And I said, oh, Garland, you don't have anything to take notes. You want a pad? He said, no, if I have anything really important to say, I will remember it. And I thought that was a great, great lesson. And I have followed that lesson since then as an artistic director. That, you know, you don't have to give somebody endless reams of notes about things they're already seeing, you know, pace up this scene or that's not clear or that the blocking that scene is a little sloppy. You don't have to do that.

But what you should do as an artistic director is to be very, very clear about four or five things that maybe the director has not seen or hasn't thought about. And it's true. You know, if you have something important to say, you will remember it.

[23:10] Kevin David Thomas: Walk me through the first day of a rehearsal of a show that is being directed by you. Is it always the same? Is it rooted in some tradition? Does it change?

[23:24] Sheldon Epps: That's a good question. I think they're always similar. I do always start with or get to a reading of the script very quickly. I'll tell you something that has changed over the last few years in my process is with musicals now, I very rarely do a read-through on the first day. I dive into teaching music with the musical director so that we can have a read-through that makes sense because you can put the music into it. You can read it with the actors having some sense, not that you're expecting full performances, but they can deliver the songs in some way. And I find that much more valuable. I spend a lot of time on the first day and for several days just talking with the cast, finding out who they are, finding out, you know, where they're from, where they studied, all those kinds of things. Number one, because I think it builds a kind of camaraderie and begins to build a community of the cast. It creates a kind of safety net around everybody, you know. It's hard to go out

[24:45] Sheldon Epps: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here and to share some of my experiences in the theatre.

[25:15] Sheldon Epps: You know, I often think about the journey that brought me to this point. It’s been a long and winding road, filled with incredible opportunities and challenges.

[25:35] Sheldon Epps: One of the things that I cherish most about my career is the chance to work with so many talented individuals. Each collaboration has taught me something new and has enriched my understanding of the art form.

[25:55] Sheldon Epps: I remember when I first started directing, I was filled with a mix of excitement and fear. It was a time of discovery, and I learned to trust my instincts and the creative process.

[26:15] Sheldon Epps: Over the years, I’ve directed a variety of productions, from classic plays to contemporary musicals. Each project has its own unique set of challenges, but that’s what makes it so rewarding.

[26:35] Sheldon Epps: I’ve always believed that theatre has the power to change lives. It can inspire, provoke thought, and bring people together in ways that few other art forms can.

[26:55] Sheldon Epps: One of my proudest moments was directing “Blues In the Night.” The response from audiences was overwhelming, and it was a joy to see the impact it had on so many people.

[27:15] Sheldon Epps: I also had the opportunity to co-direct “Baby It's You!” which was another incredible experience. The talent involved was just phenomenal, and it was a privilege to be part of that production.

[27:35] Sheldon Epps: As I reflect on my time at the Pasadena Playhouse, I’m grateful for the relationships I’ve built and the stories we’ve told together. It’s a special place that holds a lot of memories for me.

[27:55] Sheldon Epps: I think one of the most important aspects of being an artistic director is fostering a creative environment where artists feel free to take risks and explore new ideas.

[28:15] Sheldon Epps: It’s essential to create a space where everyone feels valued and heard. That’s how you cultivate innovation and keep the art form alive.

[28:35] Sheldon Epps: I’ve always tried to champion diverse voices in the theatre. It’s crucial that we reflect the world around us and tell stories that resonate with a wide range of audiences.

[28:55] Sheldon Epps: Looking ahead, I’m excited about the future of theatre. There are so many talented young artists emerging, and I can’t wait to see how they shape the landscape.

[29:15] Sheldon Epps: I believe that the challenges we face today can lead to new opportunities for growth and creativity. It’s a time for reinvention, and I’m here for it.

[29:35] Sheldon Epps: I also think about the importance of mentorship. I’ve had wonderful mentors in my life, and I strive to give back by supporting the next generation of theatre makers.

[29:55] Sheldon Epps: It’s all about passing the torch and ensuring that the legacy of theatre continues. We have a responsibility to nurture and inspire those who will come after us.

[30:15] Sheldon Epps: As I continue my journey, I remain committed to exploring new stories and pushing the boundaries of what theatre can be.

[30:35] Sheldon Epps: I’m grateful for the experiences I’ve had and the people I’ve met along the way. Each moment has contributed to my growth as an artist.

[30:55] Sheldon Epps: Thank you again for having me on the podcast. It’s been a pleasure to share my thoughts and experiences with you.

[31:05] Sheldon Epps: I look forward to what the future holds for all of us in the theatre community.

[31:15] Sheldon Epps: Let’s keep the conversation going and continue to support one another as we navigate this ever-changing landscape.

[31:35] Sheldon Epps: Theatre is a collaborative art form, and it thrives on the contributions of many. Together, we can create something truly special.

[31:55] Sheldon Epps: I encourage everyone to stay curious and open-minded. There’s always something new to learn and discover in this beautiful world of theatre.

[32:15] Sheldon Epps: Thank you for listening, and I hope to see you at the theatre soon!

[32:35] Sheldon Epps: Remember, the magic of theatre is all around us, waiting to be experienced.

[32:55] Sheldon Epps: Until next time, keep dreaming and creating!

[33:15] Sheldon Epps: It’s been a joy to share my journey with you today.

[33:35] Sheldon Epps: I appreciate the opportunity to reflect on my career and the impact of theatre in our lives.

[33:55] Sheldon Epps: Let’s continue to celebrate the art form and all those who contribute to its vibrancy.

[34:15] Sheldon Epps: Thank you once again for this wonderful conversation.

[34:25] Sheldon Epps: I’m excited for what lies ahead for all of us in the theatre world.

[34:35] Sheldon Epps: Let’s keep pushing boundaries and telling stories that matter.

[34:45] Sheldon Epps: I look forward to connecting with you all again soon.

[35:05] Sheldon Epps: Take care, and see you at the next performance!

[35:25] Sheldon Epps: Remember, the theatre is a place for everyone, and there’s always room for more voices.

[35:45] Sheldon Epps: Thank you for being part of this journey with me.

[36:05] Sheldon Epps: Let’s keep the spirit of theatre alive and thriving.

[36:25] Sheldon Epps: Until next time, stay inspired and keep creating!

[36:45] Sheldon Epps: Thank you for having me, and I hope to see you soon!

[36:55] Sheldon Epps: Goodbye for now!