This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Kevin David Thomas: Trick-or-treat, Rob.

[0:01] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, honey, I've been using that line for ages.

[0:03] Kevin David Thomas: Oh my God, Jesus.

[0:04] Robert W. Schneider: Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[0:06] Kevin David Thomas: Who are you going for for Halloween?

[0:07] Robert W. Schneider: Why, one of our Patreon sponsors, of course.

[0:09] Kevin David Thomas: Okay, I want to be that too. But how do I do that?

[0:12] Robert W. Schneider: Well, my little ghoul, head on over to Patreon.com. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com. And search for Behind the Curtain, Broadway's Living Legends. And set a monthly donation. Even a dollar a month helps us. Your contributions help us continue doing what we are doing and bringing the legend stories to your ears.

[0:29] Kevin David Thomas: I'm thinking about going as Sergio Franchi myself.

[0:32] Robert W. Schneider: Suit yourself.

[0:34] Kevin David Thomas: Maybe Tim Curry, actually.

[0:36] Robert W. Schneider: Anything can happen on Halloween.

[0:38] Kevin David Thomas: You don't turn into a cat.

[0:40] Robert W. Schneider: Charles Strauss.

[0:41] Kevin David Thomas: We need the green screen.

[0:42] Robert W. Schneider: We need the green screen.

[0:44] Robert W. Schneider: Hi, I'm Rob Schneider.

[0:45] Kevin David Thomas: And I'm Kevin David Thomas.

[0:47] Robert W. Schneider: And this is Behind the Curtain, Broadway's Living Legends.

[0:49] Kevin David Thomas: Don't forget to follow us on Twitter, at BroadwayCurtain.

[0:52] Robert W. Schneider: And make sure to join our Facebook page at Behind the Curtain, Broadway's Living Legends.

[0:56] Kevin David Thomas: And follow us on Instagram at BroadwayCurtainPodcast.

[0:59] Robert W. Schneider: Plus, you can always listen to our podcasts on Broadway World and Stitcher.

[1:02] Kevin David Thomas: For over 50 years, today's guest has been actively involved in some of the most memorable musicals of our time. As a performer, he was seen in the musicals Irene, Seesaw, Rachel Lily Rosenblum, A Chorus Line, The Act, Dancing, and Big Deal. But in the early 1980s, his eye began to move beyond the table where he choreographed the original productions of Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, Baby, Jerry's Girls, The Who's Tommy, for which he won a Tony Award, the revivals of How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying, Sweet Charity, plus Dream, Aida, Holler If You Hear Me, and the long-running phenomenon, Wicked. So tell us what it was like to work with such legends as Michael Bennett, Bob Fosse, Sir John Gielgud, Liza Minnelli, and so many more. Here's the only man to have his face up on three Broadway theaters at the same time, Wayne Cilento.

[1:47] Robert W. Schneider: Okay, yeah, welcome.

[1:49] Wayne Cilento: I'm impressed.

[1:51] Kevin David Thomas: So are we, yeah. So I have to ask you, Wayne, like in the 70s, you were doing The Act and Dancing and A Chorus Line.

[1:59] Wayne Cilento: Right.

[2:00] Kevin David Thomas: So if you went to any one of these theaters, you could see Wayne's face on the lobbies outside. This is a feat.

[2:05] Wayne Cilento: Well, it was also photographs on the outside of the theater.

[2:11] Kevin David Thomas: Got it.

[2:11] Wayne Cilento: It started with A Chorus Line, two and a half years, left A Chorus Line, having nerves break down, went back to the ensemble dance for Liza. It was called Shine It On, then it was called The Act.

[2:23] Kevin David Thomas: Right.

[2:23] Wayne Cilento: We went to LA.

[2:24] Kevin David Thomas: Right.

[2:25] Wayne Cilento: Came back in the process of doing that, Graziella, Danielle, set me up in an audition for Dancing. And it's such a freak show. And then, so I got Dancing. So at that one point, it was The Act at the Majestic, Dancing at the Broadhurst, and A Chorus Line all at the same time.

[2:47] Kevin David Thomas: You like to keep busy.

[2:48] Wayne Cilento: It'll never happen again.

[2:49] Kevin David Thomas: Oh my God, that's amazing, actually.

[2:52] Wayne Cilento: But that's kind of like, it's monumental.

[2:55] Kevin David Thomas: Oh my God, yeah, for sure. All right, so when did you first discover the love of dance?

[3:01] Wayne Cilento: Eighteen.

[3:02] Kevin David Thomas: Really?

[3:03] Wayne Cilento: Eighteen in high school. I was on the track team, and I did some gymnastics in gym, and I didn't know a clue about basketball or any of that other stuff. And they were kind of like drafting some people in the school to do a musical. The first musical they did was Oklahoma. And they cast me as the lead dancer, along with this girl named Kathy Colty, who became my wife. And then I did Little Lab in the next year. And then I went to junior college to become a pharmacist. Somewhere in the middle of that, I went, no, it's not going to happen. So I was taking dance classes in Connecticut, like I was in the closet, and decided to come out. Not literally, but anyway. And I was studying dance, and I thought, what am I doing?

I really love doing what I did. So I looked at Dance Magazine, and I went down the list, and I pointed to Brockport University. And I became a dance major, phys ed minor, and got a degree in that. And then along that, and while I was doing that, I did Summer Stock.

[4:20] Kevin David Thomas: Where was that?

[4:21] Wayne Cilento: So I did North Shore Music Theater, I went around a couple of times. So I did Hello, Dolly! twice. Then I did...

[4:29] Kevin David Thomas: Did you have any big stars, like headline, do you remember?

[4:32] Wayne Cilento: Well, I did Angela Lansbury, I did name. John Davidson, I did Oklahoma. And I did it with Molly Picon. Yeah. More of Hello, Dolly!. And no, there's another one. One of those. One of those shows. Milk and Honey. And then I started auditioning around on Broadway, and my first show was Seesaw.

[4:56] Kevin David Thomas: That is incredible. So now, what did your mom and dad do for a living?

[5:01] Wayne Cilento: My mom was a housewife. My father was a taxi driver, bus driver, became a mechanic, and became a foreman of Chevrolet, and it was very successful.

[5:13] Kevin David Thomas: And whereabouts did you grow up?

[5:15] Wayne Cilento: I grew up in the Bronx until I was 13, and then I moved to Westchester, where I live now.

[5:20] Kevin David Thomas: Okay.

[5:21] Wayne Cilento: And my dad's still alive, and he still lives in the house.

[5:23] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, God bless.

[5:24] Wayne Cilento: Yeah, 95, God bless.

[5:25] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, that's fantastic. And we live like 10 minutes away.

[5:29] Wayne Cilento: Oh, that's fantastic. So we bought a house up there.

[5:30] Kevin David Thomas: Okay, very cool.

[5:32] Wayne Cilento: We're in the house for 48 years.

[5:33] Kevin David Thomas: Jeez.

[5:34] Wayne Cilento: Yeah, ridiculous.

[5:35] Kevin David Thomas: That's good.

[5:35] Wayne Cilento: That's amazing.

[5:36] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[5:38] Kevin David Thomas: What was the first Broadway show that you saw? I mean, did you ever get in this?

[5:41] Wayne Cilento: Cabaret.

[5:42] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, wow.

[5:43] Wayne Cilento: My aunts and uncle took me, and I was like, what is that? And they said, that's, you know, it's Broadway. People do this for a living. And I said, I'm in. I'm so in. And I didn't even know I was in. It was just that I was infatuated by it. And they also took me to Radio City to see the Rockettes and stuff for Christmas. And it was like, that was like the baseline.

[6:05] Kevin David Thomas: Right.

[6:06] Wayne Cilento: And then in high school, I always danced with dancers with all the black kids.

[6:10] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[6:11] Wayne Cilento: And they taught me everything. Beat me up first, but now became their best friend and taught me dances, you know, embraced me.

[6:17] Kevin David Thomas: That's so cool. So I kind of like had the rhythm. Were you like an old movie guy as well? Like the MGM?

[6:22] Wayne Cilento: MGM, all the way.

[6:25] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah. Absolutely. Do you have a favorite?

[6:27] Wayne Cilento: Kelly versus Astaire?

[6:28] Kevin David Thomas: I used to like Kelly, and then I grew to like Astaire.

[6:32] Wayne Cilento: Okay.

[6:34] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[6:34] Wayne Cilento: That elegance.

[6:35] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, exactly. But Kelly was like, you know, masculine, small.

[6:39] Wayne Cilento: Yeah.

[6:40] Kevin David Thomas: You know, the whole bit. And your parents were cool with you saying, hey, I'm going to go into the arts?

[6:44] Wayne Cilento: Ah, they didn't know what the hell it was.

[6:45] Kevin David Thomas: Great.

[6:46] Wayne Cilento: You know, they kept on saying, you're never going to make a living like that. It's ridiculous.

[6:49] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, yeah. And then what was auditioning like when you first came to New York?

[6:54] Wayne Cilento: I mean, I assume you went to dance. How did you know what to do?

[6:57] Wayne Cilento: That's, I mean. You know, I took dance classes from everyone. I think I probably danced for every choreographer known to man. And I, like, those days were different. It was like you go to class. Ron Ferrella was around then. I think Peter Gennaro was around. I used to teach for Peter Gennaro when he was out. Who else? Graziella taught. Mathematics was teaching. Bought all of that Jack Cole stuff. And then Lee Theodore was around. And she got into my life and took me under her wing for a while. She opened up a lot of opportunities for me because she was doing Dance Machine.

[7:39] Kevin David Thomas: And you were with Dance Machine for a while.

[7:41] Wayne Cilento: I was with Dance Machine for a while. And she kept on throwing me in roles and saying, no, you can do this. Do this. And, you know, throw me out there. And I would be a part in West Side Story. And then I would be, what's that thing? That Burt Bacharach musical.

[7:55] Wayne Cilento: Oh, Promises, Promises.

[7:57] Kevin David Thomas: No, it was the other thing with two people. Lucy Arnaz did it.

[8:01] Wayne Cilento: Oh, they're playing our song?

[8:02] Kevin David Thomas: They're playing our song. And she made me play a part in that. So she was throwing me stuff. It was like, what? I'm not ready for this. And she said, yeah, yeah, you can. You can do this. You can do this. And so I just went along for the journey. And then part of the journey was she came up with an idea to do a show about Jack Cole. So for a year and a half, I studied Jack Cole. I was Jack. We went to Japan. We did a show. It was called Jack, right? It was called Jack. It was an incredible experience, but I don't even know why I'm alive. It was one of those.

[8:38] Kevin David Thomas: Wow.

[8:38] Wayne Cilento: Yeah, we opened up. It was kind of really dysfunctional. It was great, but not.

[8:43] Kevin David Thomas: Right.

[8:44] Wayne Cilento: And she said, we're a big bomb. I'm going home. You're fantastic. She left me there for like two months.

[8:51] Kevin David Thomas: Wow. Now, for some of our listeners who are not aware, who was Jack Cole and what were his contributions to dance?

[8:55] Wayne Cilento: Jack Cole's amazing. I'd like to do a show about him. So Jack Cole, Gwen Verdon. Gwen came from Jack's company. So all of that. But Jack Cole was like the father of jazz. He kind of like, it was the bridging gap of how it just kind of transferred into a lot of influences from a lot of different choreographers. And you know, choreography, choreographers and choreography is transferred over. You know, big influences in my life would be, I would say Jack Cole as a dancer, but a whole bunch of other dancers. But director types would be, I would say Michael Bennett and Bob Fosse are the biggest influences in my life. And I would have to put Lee Theodore in there also. She really gave me a lot of opportunities.

[9:44] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah. And then I had the opportunity two years, I can't believe I'm saying this. It's like two years ago. I finally got the opportunity to put an American Dance Machine show together. Did you hear about that?

[9:56] Wayne Cilento: Yeah.

[9:56] Kevin David Thomas: Tell us a little bit more about this.

[9:58] Wayne Cilento: I was hoping this was...

[9:59] Kevin David Thomas: Choice Theater.

[9:59] Wayne Cilento: Yeah, tell us, please. You know, I always thought that although Lee was such a brilliant woman and she had such an amazing idea to kind of save all of that choreography from great shows, great choreographers that gets kind of thrown away, forget about it. So she was doing that, which was great. But she never found a way of doing it or it came out like a recital. And so she couldn't find a format, I guess it's a format. So she used to do all of these numbers from all these abstract shows all over the place from all these different choreographers. And then she, and of course, I was in them, threw them together. And it was like, you do a number out of nowhere and you don't know where the hell it's coming from and you're in period clothes and you're doing this stuff and blackout, go away, change all your shit, come back out and do another number from another show from somewhere else.

And it was like, yeah, it was great. Great experience. We killed ourselves. She had a company and the company was the ensemble. And then she got like celebrities like Donna was in it. I did it. You know, dancer types that were like really had a name for themselves on Broadway and stuff like that. Donna and I danced together at a time. Gwen was sponsoring it. Graziella was sponsoring it. They were all trying to get this idea out there because it was a good idea. Anyway, long story short. So Lee passes away and Nikki Adelman, I think is her name. She bought the title of American Dance Machine. So she did a couple of variations of it with different directors. And one year she was looking for a director.

So I had lunch with her and I said, I would love to do because I have a lot of issues that I want to resolve for myself because at doing it, I felt like there's just so much more to be had. And we said, yes. And it was a long period because you go through a list of stuff and you try to make it a rhyme and reason of what things are blending into things and why it's all happening. So I started with Jack Cole and I did Beale Street Blues. Chita did that. Yeah. Gwen did a version of that. And I felt like I needed to tell the audience something. So we did projections. I did the year, the title of the show, where it came from, who Jack Cole, you know, like I gave the audience like a guide to get through it.

So it kind of like told a story and it wove it all together. And I went from Beale Street Blues right into Gotta Dance because Gene Kelly danced with Jack Cole in the day. Gene Kelly became a choreographer. Gotta Dance, the evening was about dance. So I figured I'd introduce it right away. Then we went to Tommy Toon and we did Grand Hotel and we just went down the list and it just kind of, it was breathtaking. I got to say, it just emotionally took you on this journey. And I thought, yes, I did it. And I was really happy that I did.

[13:26] Kevin David Thomas: Do you want to do more of them or did that put that to rest for you?

[13:29] Wayne Cilento: No, I think I had it. I think I'm going to do my own things.

[13:36] Kevin David Thomas: Talk about Peter Gennaro for a little bit, because he's something that comes up a lot on the podcast.

[13:39] Wayne Cilento: So love him. Yeah. And he's one of those other ones. It's like the Peter Gennaros, the Jack Coles, the Mathematicses, all those people, they left such an impact.

[13:55] Wayne Cilento: And I danced for him with Tony Stevens. So that I first met Tony Stevens, we went out and did an industrial. Peter was choreographing it. It was hysterical because Tony had this shorthand with Peter. Peter, he danced to music that no one could hear. And the reason why I'm saying that was he was hard of hearing, had a hearing aid. So he heard stuff in the orchestrations that no one would hear, no one would choreograph to, but he was doing it. And all those feet, it was somewhere in some lines, somewhere in some orchestration. So kind of Tony was filtering through and the two of us would get together and we would do our thing and we'd get it together. I had a great time. What was your go-to audition song? I sang Stevie Wonder.

[14:39] Kevin David Thomas: Okay.

[14:40] Wayne Cilento: Yeah, I was always like the rebellion. I never did theatrical songs. It was Lately.

[14:51] Kevin David Thomas: Wow.

[14:52] Wayne Cilento: Yeah. I like that. Tony asked me why. I don't even know why I got jobs, but anyway.

[14:57] Kevin David Thomas: Because you can dance.

[14:59] Wayne Cilento: Seesaw. So let's talk about Seesaw. That was a rough one.

[15:03] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[15:04] Wayne Cilento: We're interested. Other guesses. Well, I mean, I auditioned forever. It was the most monumental audition ever. Constantly around and around and around. I was in college then. I was commuting back and forth from Brockport to get to the auditions. Maybe around four or five of them. Got to callbacks, went back to Brockport, got a call, and I got it. But I got it as a swing and went to Detroit as a swing. And then in Detroit, you know the story, right?

[15:36] Kevin David Thomas: Tell us.

[15:37] Wayne Cilento: Michael Bennett got called in. That's right. And he fired almost everyone in the company, including all principals. I was hiding in clothes racks because he was, what's the name? Wait, wait. The original choreographer was?

[15:53] Kevin David Thomas: Grover Dale.

[15:54] Wayne Cilento: Grover Dale. Yeah. Grover Dale was tapping people on their shoulder going, don't bother coming back tomorrow, as we were performing. So I was hiding in racks. I was like, get away from me. And so then Tony Steven came in, and Michael Bennett was choreographing. Grover was kind of gone and brought in Bayork. I met Tommy Walsh, a whole string of us. Tommy Toon. So I wasn't swinging anymore. Now I was in the show.

[16:30] Kevin David Thomas: So it must have been a pretty heady time to see your first Broadway show.

[16:32] Wayne Cilento: Yeah. Were you cool about it or were you?

[16:33] Kevin David Thomas: No, it was great.

[16:34] Wayne Cilento: Actually, I did Seesaw. I quit Seesaw to do Rachel, Lily, Rose, and Bloom. Right. With a lot of the people that you would then meet again with the Chorus Line. The biggest bomb musical around. I mean, it was like pack. I think you're our first guest who was involved with the show.

[16:50] Kevin David Thomas: Who was?

[16:51] Wayne Cilento: I think you were.

[16:52] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, really?

[16:54] Wayne Cilento: So we would love to hear. Kelly Bishop and Green, Ellen Green.

[16:59] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, Ellen Green, yes.

[17:00] Wayne Cilento: And that Jabbar composing guy was in it.

[17:03] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, yeah.

[17:04] Wayne Cilento: The Shield.

[17:05] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, Andre.

[17:06] Wayne Cilento: Yeah, Andre on the show. Andre, yeah. He was one of our first guests. Amazing. And once again, I was a swing. Prayed every night that the show would close because it was insanity.

[17:14] Kevin David Thomas: You didn't have to pray that long.

[17:16] Wayne Cilento: We never opened. Right. It was kind of brilliant but so weird and such a big hit bomb musical.

[17:24] Kevin David Thomas: Right. I'm sure there were many things. What was the weirdest thing that happened that you remember?

[17:29] Wayne Cilento: Because we have heard stories. Just watching all of these non-theatrical people putting a show together was the weirdest thing ever. And that's pretty much it. Plus Pink G-String, cages, hullabaloo.

[17:45] Kevin David Thomas: Oh.

[17:46] Wayne Cilento: Oh, yeah.

[17:48] Kevin David Thomas: Okay.

[17:49] Wayne Cilento: Oh, yeah. Great. Burlesque before it was even burlesque. I don't even know what it was.

[17:57] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[17:58] Wayne Cilento: So I got closed, went back to try to get back into Seesaw. They said no.

[18:02] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, they did?

[18:03] Wayne Cilento: Yes.

[18:04] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, my goodness.

[18:05] Wayne Cilento: And then I got Irene. I got Irene. Yeah. And I replaced Albert Stevenson.

[18:10] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, my goodness.

[18:11] Wayne Cilento: And that's where then they started calling around seeing if any of us wanted to come to this taping thing. So then tell us about getting invited to this tape session.

[18:20] Kevin David Thomas: What is this tape session?

[18:22] Wayne Cilento: So I guess Michonne and Tony had had it that dancers were shit on and that no one really realized that, you know, the dancers in the show kind of, like, keep the show going. You know, it's the energy. Everyone goes to see choreography, blah, blah, blah. So they came up with an idea about doing a show about dancers. So they knew they weren't going to get, like, the Tommy Washes and the Kelly Bishops and me and all of these people in the room. I even forget who was in the room. So they called up Michael and asked Michael if they could use his name. And he said yes. And so we, you know, I called up Tommy. I said, are you going? I said, I'm going. You go. It's Michael Bennett. So we all kind of, like, did that, the phone taping. And we wound up in some studio, I don't know, somewhere downtown. And Tony gave a dance class after doing a show.

[19:17] Wayne Cilento: And we danced. And then we all sat around. And, of course, Michael, brilliant that he was, started off the conversation, told us a lot of personal things that came up. But it also, you know, set up the tone. And as we got around, people opened up and more opened up and kind of, like, throwing up all over the place.

[19:39] Kevin David Thomas: What was the biggest thing you learned out of those sessions, just listening to other people?

[19:41] Wayne Cilento: Well, it was like a big therapy session. I mean, I think the biggest thing that we got out of it is that, well, eventually the core of the show, like the Chorus Line, that we were so tight. It was such a tight family because everyone knew everything about each other. So, I mean, it's like all our dirty laundry was out there. I mean, it was just, we were, you know. And it was an intent. It was intense. And Michael was trying it. I mean, he'd give me a monologue, take the monologue away, give it to Tommy Wall. Say no one would believe that I was married and had a kid. So he gave it to Don. You know, he's just playing mind trips with us. But in a way, it got us more and more insecure. And each time we got more and more insecure, we got more and more brilliant in what we were doing.

Because we all needed to shit on that line. We were auditioning for our life. And that was the truth. And when we got comfortable, when it got to be a year and a half, and we were all like, oh, I'm an actor. You know, I'm cool. I'm acting now. That's when we got flat.

[20:47] Kevin David Thomas: It wasn't like that urgency and stuff like that. This was workshopped for quite a bit. We did two. We did two workshops for $100. They were just $100 a week. That's it.

[20:57] Kevin David Thomas: Was it weird to hear your story coming out of a character's mouth?

[21:02] Wayne Cilento: Well, I got to do Sammy Williams' story about the sister. I didn't have a sister. But I got to do pieces of all of my story. No one really took my story. That would have been strange. But I took Tommy Walsh's, not Tommy Walsh's, Sammy Williams'. I was supposed to do another number. I was supposed to do the shit Richie section. When you were at the public, did you know that this thing was going to be?

[21:25] Kevin David Thomas: Not at all.

[21:26] Wayne Cilento: This is going to be fun. We're done. We're moving on to the next thing. We didn't have a clue. And we were all, like, at one point, so sick. They were shooting us up with vitamin B-C shots.

[21:35] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, yeah, Dr. Feelgood.

[21:37] Wayne Cilento: Yeah, and just throw us out on stage. Wow. We didn't know. When did you start to realize there's something here? Something's going to happen to us.

[21:46] Kevin David Thomas: I think we all realized it when there were lines, like, wrapped around the theater.

[21:52] Wayne Cilento: And the ticket to get was Chorus Line.

[21:55] Kevin David Thomas: How do you stay grounded in a massive success like that?

[21:58] Wayne Cilento: Fear. Just fear. I mean, you know, we were still, even though we've been around, and we've all done a couple of Broadway shows under our belt, we were still green. I was, what, 21?

[22:12] Kevin David Thomas: You were younger.

[22:13] Wayne Cilento: And you were married at this time?

[22:15] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[22:16] Wayne Cilento: So then you do a Chorus Line. And how long were you with the Chorus Line for?

[22:20] Kevin David Thomas: So I made it for two and a half years.

[22:24] Wayne Cilento: You could do two and a half. Two and a half years. And then half of us went to LA. I decided I'm not going to LA. And they all thought they were going to be movie stars and stuff like that. I had a house. I had a kid. So I'm staying here. I think five of us stayed. And then, you know, the Ann Rankings came through, and a whole bunch of different people came through. And I was okay for a minute. But then I started getting numb. I started, like, you know.

[22:52] Kevin David Thomas: There's a hole in your body.

[22:53] Wayne Cilento: Well, not only that. I was just, like, not there. I would get back in the line, and I'd, like, Bayek was next to me, and I'd go, did I just do that down there?

[23:02] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, my goodness.

[23:03] Wayne Cilento: She said, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I said, how was it? I was like that. It was when you get, like, you're, like, on automatic pilot, and you don't even know what the hell you're doing. That was scary. And, you know, and again, I think it was a time where we all got out of our comfort zone and pushed forward to get something different, new, and exciting. And, I mean, obviously, I could have stayed with Chorus Line for a long time because I had responsibilities. But I was losing it.

[23:37] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[23:38] Wayne Cilento: So I threw myself back out there, and I went and I auditioned for Liza. I thought, if I'm going to dance for anyone, I'm going to dance for her.

[23:45] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[23:46] Wayne Cilento: And I got it. And I danced for Juan Luis, and he's brilliant. And I killed myself, and I got insane reviews.

[23:54] Kevin David Thomas: This is what would become The Act.

[23:55] Wayne Cilento: The Act. Yeah. Insane reviews. Clyde Barnes pointed me out. I'm dancing with four other guys.

[24:02] Kevin David Thomas: Oh.

[24:03] Wayne Cilento: No, three other guys. There was only four guys and four girls. But it was like, well, it was insane. I don't know where it came from, but. And then, like I told you, Graziella got to Bob. Bob had already casted Dancing, and I thought I was having a private audition.

[24:21] Kevin David Thomas: For Fosse.

[24:23] Wayne Cilento: What a joke. Everyone had a private audition. I was like, oh, my God, this is so amazing. I'm so special.

[24:30] Kevin David Thomas: What was that like, though? I mean, because had you ever auditioned for him before?

[24:34] Wayne Cilento: I did. I auditioned for Chicago, and we were doing the workshop of Chorus Line. And I didn't get it. And I went, what the hell was that? I didn't get Chicago. I really wanted it. But I'll just say what Chorus Line became.

[24:48] Kevin David Thomas: Of course.

[24:49] Wayne Cilento: So then I auditioned again. So I walked in the room, just Bob, Annie, and Gordon, and a drummer. And Bob is just. I mean, the whole Bob and Gwen thing, we can talk about that later. It's so disturbing to me. Because I think one of Bob's incredible elements and characteristics that he had and personality is that he's completely charismatic and charming. And he has this incredible ability to make you feel like you're the most special thing around. And I think it's his finesse and uniqueness that he could pull stuff out of you and see how far he could go with the trust. I mean, you trust him so much, you just kind of let it go.

[25:43] Kevin David Thomas: And talk about Lately.

[25:46] Wayne Cilento: So, of course, dancers have the stigma they can't sing. Because dancers dance, and they don't sing. So you're a nervous wreck. So anyway, I got in there. We danced. I danced with Annie. Bob was dancing along. It was great. I had a great time. And then it came to singing, and I got to the piano, and I sang, Lately. And he said, could you raise the key to Gordon? Raise the key. Could you raise it any higher? Again, raise the key. I'm singing like a bird, no problem. Really felt really comfortable about myself. I was like on cloud nine. He said, the show is cast, and I don't know what I'm going to do, but thank you for coming in. And I walked out of that room, went across the hall to The Act. And it was like, fuck it. I had the best time of my life.

[26:36] Wayne Cilento: So opening night, I'm doing this one particular step. I'm dead center, and I'm bent over, and I'm looking into the audience. And there's Bob Fosse staring right at my face. And I go to myself, holy shit, holy shit. So continue that. Get to the party. And I run into him, and he says, I want you. I want you in Dancing, and I'll figure out what to do. I said, oh, my God, okay, great. And that was it. I said, please don't tell Liza I was the dance captain for the show. And I doubled both shows until we went to Boston to try out.

[27:16] Kevin David Thomas: My God. Okay, so collaborating with Liza Minnelli, working with her, what is that experience like?

[27:23] Wayne Cilento: Performing with her? Yeah. She's phenomenal. She's phenomenal. And I was the dance captain. So I had this responsibility of getting her out of the dressing room.

[27:33] Kevin David Thomas: Okay. What was that like?

[27:35] Wayne Cilento: Well, I mean, she's 150%. So intermission, she passes out, she goes, she relaxes. She's doing her thing. It's, you know, in between.

[27:49] Wayne Cilento: At the end of the season, there's a conversation. It's a mission. 15, 20, half an hour. Phil Friedman's going, Wayne, we got to get her out of here. So I go, Liza! Liza! Oh, come on in! We got to go! We got to go! She goes, really? I said, yeah, get dressed, come on! We're out there. I'm telling you, the show went down one night like one o'clock. It was insane. But she's phenomenal. And then I did a couple of acts for her. So that was great. She's just a professional workaholic. She kills herself. She's 150% all the time.

[28:37] Wayne Cilento: Okay, so now you get into dancing. So what goes on now? First you're told, we don't want you. Now we want you. What's this rehearsal process like? Well, first of all, it was so funny because again, I'm like in a zone. I'm like, tell me what to do. I'm going to do it. 100%. But I don't do, I can't do any extra curricular activity with schmoozing, networking, talking to people, flirting, nothing. I used to do what he did, and he gave me everything. I was out of two numbers. I was out of the girl's number, and if he could have, he would have put me in a dress. And one other number, I don't know what it was. He killed me. But that's why I got a Tony nomination.

[29:29] Wayne Cilento: You got recognized. And he said he was going to. I know. I was pretty much the only male singer. With John Mineo and I did the thing, but then pretty much everything else was Bojangles, I sang all the other stuff. He was phenomenal, but he used to laugh at me because I was like at the wing, like at the proscenium, just sitting there waiting for him to call me back on the stage. But the best part of it was that, well, first of all, my show was phenomenal. I mean, he really gave me a gift. And again, I don't know what the drama was with anyone because he never touched me with anything. Never a head trip, nothing. Just complete respect. And he did the same thing in Big Deal when he called me for Big Deal.

It was like, I'm on, I'm in. But when they were doing, I felt bad about it, but I understood, but I still kind of feel bad about it. So when he was doing all that jazz, he came up to me and he said, Wayne, I'm not going to use you for all that jazz. I really need you to hold down the fort in dancing. He said, you have to keep the show together. I said, absolutely, no problem.

[30:37] Wayne Cilento: I remember one day when Charles Ward was doing his solo, Percussion IV. I don't know why, but he was next to me and he said to me, when I do the movie of dancing, the scene is, Charles will be dancing, but I'm going to do a shot of you in the men's room peeing. And I went, really? And what he was saying was, I could give two shits about whoever had solos. God bless them. I had my own goddamn show. I didn't want to do anyone else's show. So I was so chill, not jealous. But he picked up on that. I was straight arrow. I was doing my job. No grief about, oh, he's doing that. Why am I? All that stuff.

[31:25] Wayne Cilento: So you were in the room with Bennett and you were in the room with Fosse. How would you compare their styles or their rehearsal methodologies? Bennett was a genius in choreographing the whole picture. Not that Bob wasn't, but Bennett liked transitions, things, curtains, costumes, things flowing in and out. Could care less about the combination. So Bennett used to put Donna McKechnie, Bayork, Tommy Walsh, myself, and maybe one other person in the room, and we would come up with vocabulary steps. And then we'd put some combination together. He'd come in and he'd go, no, take that out, do two of those, do this, do that, do that. He'd leave. We'd fix it. Come back in. He'd change it again. We'd do it again.

He'd come back. He'd go, okay, great. Get out there. Let's teach everybody. And that's how we did the choreography. I mean, every once in a while he used to pull that out of his ass and do stuff like on the fly. But he wasn't interested in that kind of stuff. He was interested in the bigger picture.

[32:53] Wayne Cilento: Fosse is a control freak. He does everything himself. I mean, to the finger, to the shoulder, to the thing, all of it, plus the other stuff. I got both worlds. I got him as this genius, transitions, how things move, all that stuff. Definitely was influenced with that with my work. And then Bob, just the simplicity was so powerful, and all that stuff, and seeing him work. And when you work today, do you find yourself aligning yourself with one or the other when you're actually directing and choreographing? I think it's both. It's a combination of both. Even me as a choreographer working with directors, I'm the one that is yanking all of the transitions and things together. Of course, directors have ideas, but I'm making it flow with bodies and wood sets and stuff like that, so I learned a lot.

[33:29] Wayne Cilento: When you first started dancing, did you think, I'm going to be a choreographer at some point? No. When did that start to interest you? I didn't. I just fell into it. Really? Yeah. I really wanted to go to California and be Gene Kelly, but they weren't doing that shit anymore. No, they weren't. Yeah. It was like, okay, this could be fun, and I just fell into it. And then Steve Horne asked me, and another director asked me, and Bob called me back.

[34:01] Wayne Cilento: So you were choreographing these commercials? Yeah. So, Joseph, how does Joseph come to? So I met these producers, Susan Green, and I forget her partner's name, and they were doing Joseph, and it was in Washington. And I commuted from Washington every day. I know, I don't know how I did it. So I had Bob Duva. Say the name again? Bob Duva. No. An agent. So he was my agent at that time, and he negotiated an incredible contract because I had writer first refusal, I did it in Washington, and the show got picked up, and the producers wanted Tony Tanner to direct and choreograph it. So I got royalties for doing nothing. Brilliant. Right. Wow.

[35:05] Wayne Cilento: I would have to say that Joseph, Aida, and Wicked were the only three shows out of the 11 that I choreographed that I made money on. Okay, so baby, this is interesting. How do you make people dance that are not dancers? The characters, I'll say. I have to say, the commercials, I used to have to make dancers look like they were real people, and real people that couldn't move move like it was all natural to them. So I approached it just that way. You had three girls in the doctor's office, one had a basketball, make that a number. One was pregnant, she didn't want to be pregnant, figure out how to do that. Baseball game? Okay, fine, I'll do baseball moves, put it in a locker room. Make it work. Inspiration wherever you can.

[36:49] Wayne Cilento: Okay, big deal. Beat Me Daddy ate to the bar. This is iconic. So how did that number come to fruition? How much was you, how much was Mr. Fosse? So here I am, fat and choreographing. Were you still really performing during this period? No, I was choreographing. Did you make that conscious decision? Okay, so dancing, Tony Award, where the hell am I going? I'm not a leading man. I'm not going to go back on the ensemble now. Now I'm really screwed. I did Perfectly Frank. That was good. I maybe did maybe one other show, and then I started choreographing. I was pumping out shows, and then I get a call from Bob, and he goes, I'm doing a show called Big Deal. I want you in it. I said, I'm there. I walked in there. I was a fat slob. Believe me, tights, sweatpants, plastic pants, tank top, t-shirt, sweat shirt. He laughed at me, and he said, getting back in shape? I said, mm-hmm. The layers kept coming off, and I got back.

[37:41] Wayne Cilento: So cool. I think it was maybe the best thing that I've done in my career. Why do you say that? Well, because at that point, I was a man. You weren't a kid. You weren't 21. I had experience. I kind of knew what he wanted. You choreograph now. I came about it as a character more so than a dancer. I was completely confident in what I could do, and I was in the best shape that I've ever been. I turned it out. It was amazing. We'll post that clip for all of our listeners, but it's absolutely incredible. How much of that was you? How much was Mr. Fosse? It's all him. It's all him. I just watched him do what I did, totally in, committed to the role, doing what I was doing. My body was interpreting it what I thought it was.

Everyone's gotten so bold and big and so over-exaggerated in his so-called style. It's so interesting because he was subtle, and it was all coming from a point of view. Even though it was sexy and seductive and sensual, it wasn't like disgusting and disjointed. It wasn't all black all the time that it's become.

[38:53] Wayne Cilento: It's become like a caricature of itself. It's kind of blossomed into not really being the man. The man was shy. He was bald. He wore hats. He was turned in. All of that came his style. He danced. When he danced, he danced. Was he changed at all? It was a couple years since you had done Dancing. Did you see or sense any sort of difference in him, the way his demeanor was, the way he talked? I think he nailed that production number. I think maybe that was one of the best production numbers that I think he ever did, really. The whole construction of it. It wasn't lined up. It wasn't a combination everyone did. He had the background doing whatever they were doing. Bruce and I were kind of seducing Loretta. We were playing with her. She was our focus. She was my focus. She was right there. Instead of playing out to the audience, it was all about her.

[39:57] Wayne Cilento: You lost Mr. Fosse and Mr. Bennett in such a short amount of time from each other. How did you deal with the blow of those two? Michael was a blow. I wanted to do another something for him. I know he was doing some other things, but I wasn't involved with him. I always in my mind thought, I want to do another thing with him. Bob, it was so kind of like we won the Tony that Sunday. We closed the next Sunday. He was doing Sweet Charity. I think it broke his heart. Yes, he did drugs and wasn't a healthy man. All that stuff. But I think just the combination of stuff broke him down. I think that was it.

[40:49] Wayne Cilento: We mentioned Bob Fosse. We mentioned Michael Bennett so much from that era. Who do you think should be mentioned as frequently as Bob Fosse and Michael Bennett? Who should get a little bit more recognition than maybe they're getting right now? Gower Champion or Ron Fields or Joe Layden or anyone along those lines? I think Ron and every one of them that you said. I think they were at, but they never broke to that other level. They were at the core of some of the best choreographers, I think. They obviously have done some really good work in their careers. But I think with Bennett and with Fosse, they went beyond that level and they just jumped to superstars.

[41:33] Wayne Cilento: How do you think dancers have evolved from when you were doing this to now? A dancer in Seesaw versus a dancer in, say, Book of Mormon.

[42:43] Wayne Cilento: They can get in a chorus. I don't know if anyone's doing brilliant choreography. I mean, the last thing that made my hair stand up was, and I don't know, and it's disrespectful, I should know, the guy who did the choreography for Fiddler on the Roof, the last big one that was at the Broadway Theater. Absolutely great, brilliant work. I don't know how he did it, but he did a combination of Jerry, and he wove in his stuff, and it looked like Jerry's stuff. It's kind of like what I did when I did Sweet Charity, which was maybe the hardest show I choreographed in my life, because I had Bob on my back, and I didn't want to disrespect him, and yet I'm doing a show, and I'm trying to do it in my way.

I mean, I'm an up-and-coming choreographer myself, but there's these iconic numbers. I was paralyzed for a while, really, so I did tip my hat to him a couple of times and threw in one of his steps, like the boxing thing and the frug and stuff like that, just to go, don't worry, don't worry. I know where it's coming from. I'm humble.

[44:27] Wayne Cilento: Studios and theaters is our home for recording the legends of Broadway, and we hope that you make it your artistic home, too. That's Shetler, S-H-E-T-L-E-R-studios.com. See you here.

[45:05] Wayne Cilento: What do you look for out of a dance captain? The worst job. You know, I mean, it's so hard. I mean, you're a therapist. A therapist. Yeah, you're trying to get these kids to do stuff, and it goes sideways. I mean, all of a sudden, you were supposed to be on six, and now you're on four or center. Get back on six. Oh, no. I was always on four. I was always on four, and then you have to do that. And I go, well, if you go on four, it's like, really, this other person's in front of you, so if you just moved over to six, you'd be in a better spot. Oh, okay. You know, and you walk out of there, and you're like, oh, for God's sake. You know, it is just ridiculous. It's hard. It's really hard.

[45:56] Wayne Cilento: Yeah, especially on long-running shows. And then again, you don't want to clean the crap out of it. It strips out all their personality. I'm all for everyone's unique. This is the combination. Do the combination. Dance the way you dance. Just be true to yourself. Let me see what you do. That's why you're hired. You attracted me in the audition because you're great. So I don't want to nitpick every single goddamn thing that you do and make you a robot. So that's that fine line. You have to figure out what that is, and it's tough. So when you're watching an audition, what are you looking for? Personality more than technique, technique more than personality, even split.

[46:41] Wayne Cilento: Again, it's just, I'll tell you a story. Do you know Mikey Winslow? Yeah. Love him. So when I was doing, it's kind of easy, though. It's hard and easy. I mean, you do 100 people, and you think, I'm never going to get through this. I'm going to be completely blind. And because you're so fucking tired, you kind of go, yeah, goodbye. Everyone else go away. Could you stay? Could you stay? You can stay. And you're like weeding them out within seconds. I guess it's whoever pulls your eye. And it's got to be something going on in their interpretation, in their head, and plus the ability to do the combination and do it really well. So going through hundreds of people, and I never met Mikey, but he was one of those kind of people that is not in your face.

He doesn't, I never did this either. I never went dead center. I never got in the first line. I'm somewhere in the middle, off to the side, so I can see the person teaching, but I'm not in their face. And if they come find me, they find me. If they don't find me, oh well. And I just did my thing. So in this mess, I see this guy back there, and he's dancing his ass off, just having a great fucking time. And it was like my eye went straight to him. I went past five, six lines, straight to Mikey. Wow. It's just, it's just that. You just know. And you can't explain, you can't explain it. And he's not, I don't think he's technically brilliant, like maybe some of the other people that are all, you know, ballet'd out, and you know, they're doing it perfectly and stuff like that with like, yeah, no soul, no, nothing going on.

And he is just down to earth, grounded, doing this stuff, dancing his face off. And it was like, I want you to come over here. You know, that kind of stuff. So it's kind of fun. Yeah. It's fun. I love auditions. And I try to make it a party. I really do. I try to make it so if you don't get the job, you walk out of there and you go, I had the best experience. I love it. Well, I love dancers. So I respect them.

[49:02] Wayne Cilento: So how did your relationship with Des Mackinoff come to be? Because you guys did Tommy together and then you did How to Succeed together. Yeah. But it started with chess. Yes. Yeah. You have a tour. Yeah. So this is how I met him. So they had one week left and they were going to Miami. And Des hated the choreographer, I hear. And I don't know how he found my name, to tell you the truth. But he called me up and said, do you want to come in and do chess? Because we're about to go. And I said, sure. And I met him and it was all hell broke loose. I was in the room changing every piece of choreography. You know, we would have a conversation. I'd go in there and I'd do this stuff and bring them out, teach it on everyone.

Next section, go in the room, do pre-production, do my thing, come back out. Did that and we hit it off. So it never went anywhere. It was a beautiful production, but really heavy set design. It was gorgeous. And then from there, I think we did How to Succeed.

[50:11] Wayne Cilento: Yeah. How to Succeed. Yeah. So if we're talking about How to Succeed, I have to ask you about Brotherhood of Man. How did that number come to be? Talk about that one. That was a fun number. Look at all those actors. Exactly. Again, there was maybe four stragglers in there that were like dancer, dancers. But I had to make men dance and move. And I came up with all that corny kind of cartoon stuff. How does a dance piece like that work with you and the director? Does the director come to you? Does Des say, here's what I'm thinking, cartoony, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? And then you run? Or how does this work? No, you just kind of throw it out there. And then the director comes in and goes, oh, hey, you hit it on the nose.

Oh, hey, I don't like that. Change it and leaves. And he did that with Coffee Break. Oh, I did it eight times. Oh, my goodness. What was the problem? Nothing. I had the idea of what it was, but I guess I didn't. I have to say, Des made me an incredible choreographer, but he made me think like a director.

[51:18] Wayne Cilento: So that was the beginning of it. And I needed to progress the story in whatever production number I was dealing with choreography. So, and if you look back at some of my work, it never really stopped. And I never did jerk-off dance action. Right, right, right. Like all of a sudden, we're going to dance. For the sake of it. For no reason. Just because, why not? Come on, I don't want to pat myself on the back. Let me fly across stage and do splits and things. Jazz runs. So I think in the beginning, I was a little bit not focused with the storytelling that I was telling with Coffee Break. And it was one of my favorite numbers that I did. I had the idea, Coffee Beans, Calypso, all of that kind of stuff. So that was that flavor and the manic energy of having a caffeine, not caffeine, yeah, an attack, addiction, all of that madness. And it just kind of evolves.

[52:25] Wayne Cilento: And I'm sure every piece of choreography is challenging to create. But what has been the most challenging for you? Do you think, or which number stumped you the most? I actually think, and the most I'm mostly proud of myself is Holler. Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, I have no right. I mean, an old little Italian guy doing this stuff. He knows how to tell a story with movement. But I said, I don't want any Broadway dancers. I want all street dancers, or video dancers. And I'll put it together. I'll structure it. And that's what I did. And I just felt really proud of the fact that I had that collaboration with the dancers. And I molded it together. I had an idea. I'd do some half-ass hip hop step.

Right. I imagine there's a learning curve for you. Right. And then they would go, oh, so you want to look like this? And I go, yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's it. But at least I gave them, I threw up my insecurities. And then they kind of like, oh, okay. And there's moments where it's give and take, and you're building it on specific people. So like Bob did for me. Right. You said Michael Bennett did that as well. Absolutely. Of course. So you've got to work with the people that's there. And I was really proud of how it turned out.

[53:46] Wayne Cilento: And so then after about a decade or so of choreographing, you turned to directing. Well, that was the thing that did it to me. I'm standing there, checking the thing, doing the transitions. The whole thing is movement. And I went, I can't do this anymore. I got to do it on my own, or I have to try it on my own, or I have to do something. It's really hard when you get really good at what you do. I'm a really good collaborator. I like working with directors that are great directors. Joe and I got along brilliantly. And that was an interesting working relationship. And we got along, everything was great, but I'm good at it. I drop my ego. Whoever the hell I'm supposed to be is outside. I walk into the room. It's just about the work. And that's the only way you can get a show that works. You can't walk in there and go, what about me? Where's my time to shine? It doesn't work that way.

[55:02] Wayne Cilento: When you're working on something like AIDA, which is Disney, and there's Disney money available, is that a blessing or is that a curse? It was a blessing at that time. I was really lucky. They did a production. They fired everyone. Bob Falls came in. I met with him. He hired me and we started from scratch. That was a choreographer's dream. It was like a concert. It's so weird. I think that, I did get nominated for Dream. AIDA, no. They blackballed us. None of us got nominated. But I feel like that was some of my best work. And I actually...

[56:08] Wayne Cilento: And they were doing readings. I guess Mark Platt and Steven and Joe and Winnie and Steven Aremus were doing readings and really tasteful readings. It was just them sitting on a bleacher with music stands with the script and they had a band and they stood up and they sang their song and they sat down. They didn't get into any staging or anything like that but Joe didn't pick a choreographer yet and they were doing their last reading and it was just the first act and I think Marsha and Lisa Liguillo said to Joe, I really think you should meet Wayne and he said okay. So I don't know who else went in the room but I watched the first act I was completely blown away. I mean the music's spectacular.

Did I know where choreography was in the show? No. Was there choreography in the show? Not really. I mean it's not that kind of a show. So Joe and I had coffee and he said what do you think? I said it's brilliant. I love it. He said do you want to be involved? I said yeah of course. He said well what do you think? I said Joe, I don't have a clue where the choreography is, what the world is, but I'm willing to go for it. He said okay fine. That was the end of it. That was it? That was it. It was that simple and our relationship stayed like that. I have to say. Trust and it sounds like the world was colliding all around us and the two little Italian boys were like thick as thieves. The company saw us.

We were together. We weren't like beating each other up and stuff like that. We were consistent. Everything else was like doing what it's doing and we stay straightforward. I would throw it up and he would edit me and I would fix it and we'd get past that and we'd move on.

[58:16] Wayne Cilento: And you guys said you had a conceptual idea. What was that concept going into? Well we knew that it was a strange world and you know and we knew that it wasn't normal kind of movement. You weren't going to see a ballet combination or a dance combination or any of that stuff in there. All these characters were really interesting so you had to again build on them. It just evolved. I mean all the transitional stuff we kind of did together. I took over when it needed to be more musicalized and more choreographed and stuff like that. We did a lot of variations of a lot of numbers like hit or miss kind of a thing. San Francisco was a huge hit in San Francisco but yet not really what they wanted to do ultimately.

[59:07] Robert W. Schneider: Who's they? The producers?

[59:07] Wayne Cilento: Well I think somewhere in our run and it was lines down the block. Everyone dressed up as witches and clowns and oh my whatever craziness. Screaming. But it was Christian's show and it wasn't Elphaba's show. Elphaba was like the underdog and she was quiet but it was Kristen was the one that was the star and she's brilliant. I mean yeah yeah she can't do anything wrong. I mean it's Kristen. But they decided we had lunch and we sat there at the table and they said we're a disaster. And I was like oh god here we go. And what they were saying was they needed to restructure the book so Elphaba would be the hero. She would be the underdog. She'd be the ugly duckling but yet she would be the one that everyone loved.

She would be the savior and that twist and I got it as soon as they said it. I got it. I got what they needed to do but it also changed Christian's show. Glenda's show. So got a little tense there for them. But we got through it. We got back to New York and we kind of like opened the floodgate again and we kind of some things stayed. Some things got thrown away. And Joe and I thought it was going to be a bomb.

[1:00:33] Wayne Cilento: Really? Yeah we just didn't know if anyone would come because we thought it was this dark musical and all of a sudden families with all these little girls were in the audience and screaming and cheering and going wow and we're in this big theater. We're never going to fill up this house. And yet it's a whole generation of young people have been influenced by this musical. I mean it's not cheap to bring a family. It still isn't. That's what I'm saying. I'm telling you about it. It's ridiculous. And all the companies. Well we had nine at one point. David was going for ten. So that was amazing. Got it down to I guess it's just three. Sensible. There was a touring company in Europe that just closed. They're talking about maybe opening that again. So that would be great.

[1:01:26] Robert W. Schneider: I'm sure people are curious because you know it's one thing 16 years ago when you were putting this up. What are your duties now when it comes to maintaining the show? I know you delegate a little bit.

[1:01:31] Wayne Cilento: I go once a year. Corinne is the dance supervisor director. She's been doing that and she's brilliant at what she does. I go in and I do like a dance kind of cleanup seminar. It's like two days in a studio and maybe a day on the stage. I mean of course they're brilliant for two weeks. You hired someone great. Then they go back to it. And they fly us to London every year. Joe and I, we just came back two weeks ago and they turn over the show every year. A whole new company. They only do a year contract. That's incredible. It's kind of brilliant. I don't know how they do it. It's fresh. The show is fresh. I go over there and I kind of go before Joe. I see it before Joe and then I do like a mini cleanup and then Joe sees it with me and then we do that next level together. They're in great shape.

[1:02:39] Robert W. Schneider: Are you still rediscovering things about the show?

[1:02:41] Wayne Cilento: Well it's so funny because after we did the show and we went and we did the London version, Joe and I, we were there for like nine weeks, ten weeks. And we were like, what is that? What did we do there? And he said, I don't know. Could we fix it? And we changed the whole show. Well not the whole show, but like a lot of chunks of it. And then whatever we did in London, we went to the nine other companies and put all the changes in.

[1:03:14] Robert W. Schneider: Oh that's fantastic. That's great.

[1:03:18] Wayne Cilento: That is fantastic. So we had a moment to kind of let go. I don't know. That doesn't work. I said to Joe, do you remember when we do it in the courtyard where they were reading? Because that's what it's about, you know, studying and stuff. And he used to take the books and then at one point they threw their books off the stage. He said, yeah, what happened to that? I said, well, we threw it back. I said, you want me to put it back? He said, yeah, let's put it back. I was so stupid. Just stupid stuff came up, but it was like, we were there, so we might as well dig in.

[1:04:01] Robert W. Schneider: So what's next for you? What do you got cooking? Or do you hate that question?

[1:04:01] Wayne Cilento: No, it's just so hard. Since I, like four years ago when I said, I'm not doing this anymore. When you said I'm not doing it, were you like, I'm not going to direct anymore? I'm not going to no, I just didn't. I just felt like it was my time to, instead of being the unsung hero for directors and not really getting the credit, which was fine, I don't care. But still, and if it's all said and done, I'm pumping out shows, but I'm, okay, time is ticking here. It's time for me to give it a try. And if I fall on my face, great, I fall on my face. And then Wayne, go back to what the hell you were doing, if you can get back there, but I had to give it a try. So it's just really hard to change people's minds about who you are, what you do, 10 Broadway shows, very successful choreographer I am.

It's not like it was hit or miss. I did get a reputation for my work and it was like, it's hard to, I think someone that's not a great choreographer, maybe has a better opportunity of jumping and being a director, just jumping the odds and going, ah, you know what? I'm not so good at choreography. I'm going to do this. As opposed to this really established choreographer, seven Tony nominations, where am I going? How am I getting over to that other side?

[1:05:27] Wayne Cilento: So things have come up, like Dance Machine. I did that. I directed it and it was everybody else's choreography, but that's fine. I'm fine. I'm still putting it together. I had a conceptual idea. It's just getting attention from producers. I really came to the decision that I need a producer friend. I need someone that I could say, hey, I had this idea. There's this movie that I want to do something with, it's called View from a Window. It's an Italian film. It's about, it's just an interesting concept. So go and say, hey, looked at this movie. It's a great movie. I'm thinking about it could be turned into a musical. Would you help me develop it? That kind of a thing. It's finding that connection with, it's not like a theater owner.

Can't go to a really a theater owner. I have to go to a producer that's going to either get the rights, get the help, go, okay, we got this. We can do this. You can go do like a little mini workshop here and figure out, get a writer to do that.

[1:06:33] Robert W. Schneider: And the thing we're going to end with is if there's an aspiring choreographer listening to this, what piece of advice would you like to pass on to them? What do you wish you knew? What do you know now that you wish you knew then?

[1:06:44] Wayne Cilento: You know what? I don't think it was anything that is like in words that you can follow. I think it's the journey. And I also think that they just got to get more into what they're doing and why they're doing it. I mean, it can't just be about a shining moment. It needs to be about the story and drop your ego and whatever it is, you don't have to show technique all the time. You just have to tell the story. And everyone's got the ability to do it. It's just a different approach. My approach was different. And I studied from a lot of people, so I'm not just classically trained. I got pieces from a whole bunch of stuff in me somewhere. And it comes out at different moments. And I'm really happy I did that. I mean, I have like an abundance of wealth and knowledge from all of these people that I shared time with them. I just can't get that from...

[1:07:56] Robert W. Schneider: You're a lucky guy.

[1:07:56] Wayne Cilento: I would just say, keep working. I'm definitely blessed. I've had a blessed career, I have to say. And continue to. Thank you, Wayne, for all of this.

[1:08:09] Robert W. Schneider: All right, till next time, everybody. Bye, everybody. Thank you. Today's episode was recorded at Shetler Studios on 244 West 54th Street. Visit Shetler Studios to book your room today, and you could be as cool as us. That's S-H-E-T-L-E-R studios.com. And a big thanks to our sound editor, Daniel Schwartzberg, and social media manager, Bethany Ann Selecky. And friends, don't forget, we want more folks to hear these incredible stories. And that's where you guys can come in and help us out. Yes, in order for people to find out about us, we need lots of ratings on iTunes. The more ratings, the more they'll come up in searches. So head on over to iTunes, search for Behind the Curtain Broadway's Living Legends, click on our logo, click on ratings and reviews, then write a review and leave us five stars and make us feel as special as Eliza Doolittle on Eliza Doolittle Day.

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