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[0:00] Kevin David Thomas: Hey, listeners, Kevin and I need your help.

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[0:29] Kevin David Thomas: If you need some help, think of one star being Carol Channing and Paul Lynn in The Road Company of the last five years, and five stars being free front-row tickets to Hamilton.

[0:38] Robert W. Schneider: Although, when you think about it, I actually would give five stars to The Road Company of Carol Channing and Paul Lynn in the last five years, because I think that would be awesome.

[0:45] Kevin David Thomas: I would love to hear... Could I hear Move in Too Fast as Paul?

[0:48] Robert W. Schneider: That's the one I really want.

[0:51] Kevin David Thomas: She's a six-a-goddess.

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[1:06] Robert W. Schneider: Hi, I'm Rob Schneider.

[1:08] Kevin David Thomas: And I'm Kevin David Thomas.

[1:09] Robert W. Schneider: And this is BEHIND THE CURTAIN BROADWAY'S LIVING LEGENDS.

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[1:26] Robert W. Schneider: Today's guest is one of the most accomplished press agents in the history of Broadway.

[1:29] Kevin David Thomas: And if you read her brilliant book, Backstage Pass to Broadway, True Tales from a Theater Press Agent, you will see that sometimes what happens off stage is more dramatic than what happens on stage.

[1:39] Robert W. Schneider: It's true. Her remarkable career has included such highlights as trying to tame Zero Mostel, dancing with Bob Fosse, defending Mary Martin, and defeating David Merrick.

[1:48] Kevin David Thomas: To tell us what it was like to work with such legends as Raúl Juliá, George C. Scott, Ronald Reagan, and to be friends with the Fonz, here is Susan L. Schulman.

[1:58] Susan L. Schulman: Hi.

[1:58] Kevin David Thomas: Welcome.

[1:59] Susan L. Schulman: I just, my head turned like eight times with those days. Geez, you knew everybody.

[2:03] Susan L. Schulman: I do. Gosh, I must be old.

[2:07] Kevin David Thomas: God.

[2:09] Susan L. Schulman: Wise.

[2:09] Robert W. Schneider: We're wise and legendary.

[2:11] Susan L. Schulman: I'm vintage.

[2:12] Kevin David Thomas: We like to say we're legendarily wise.

[2:14] Susan L. Schulman: I'm seasoned.

[2:15] Robert W. Schneider: For our listeners who aren't familiar with what your job does, what exactly is the definition? How would you define, which I'm sure you've been asked over and over again.

[2:23] Susan L. Schulman: The truth is nobody knows what a press agent does. That's the funny thing. I always laugh and say it's smiling and nodding at an opening night to critics. It's, hi, thanks for coming. Enjoy the show. Hi, thanks for coming. Enjoy the show. Hi, thanks for coming. Enjoy the show. But the truth is what we do is we create the right expectations, both for an audience and for critics. If you're handling an Ibsen play, you don't really want to say it's a laugh riot. It's not a knee slapper. It's a drama. The press agent's job is to create the right expectation. I'll give you an example. You want an example?

[3:01] Kevin David Thomas: Yes, please.

[3:01] Susan L. Schulman: You mentioned the adorable Bob Fosse, who I did, in fact, dance with. Not on stage, but I did dance with Bob Fosse. I love that. Bob Fosse was doing a show called Dancing. Wonderful show. He always took his shows to Boston before they came to New York. That was his tryout town. He respected the critics there. He respected the audiences there. He felt they gave him real feedback on what he put on the stage, and he appreciated that. When the show started in Boston, he talked about how it was a review. It was a bunch of dance numbers he wanted to put on stage before he got too old, is the way he put it. It was never a book musical. It wasn't like Sweet Charity or Chicago. It didn't have a book.

It wasn't supposed to have a book. It never intended to have a book. The show opened in Boston, and it got okay reviews, but they were unhappy because there was no book. They kept saying, there's no book, there's no thread, there's no story. Well, there wasn't supposed to be. Somehow, we hadn't communicated that. We hadn't managed to put that out there in an interesting enough way that both the audiences and the critics had the right expectation.

[4:09] Kevin David Thomas: Wow.

[4:10] Susan L. Schulman: And so, it was like we gave them apples instead of oranges, and they were expecting oranges. They were like, hey, where's my oranges?

[4:17] Kevin David Thomas: That's right, and no matter how good the apples were, they didn't want the apples. They wanted the oranges.

[4:21] Susan L. Schulman: So, before it opened in New York, which was about, I would say, 90, 95% the same show because he always tinkered and fiddled and fixed things, and he could do it better than anybody. We really sat down with him, and we said, listen, you're going to do a Sunday Times, what's called a pre-opening reader, a Sunday Times feature in the arts and leisure section, and it's very important. You talk about how there's no theme, there's no story, there's no thread. It's just a bunch of dance numbers on stage, and he did. And the Sunday Times piece came out, and of course, it's read by theater critics as well as by the audience, general public. And the show opened, as I say, pretty much the same show that had opened in Boston with tinkering, and the critics said, it's fabulous.

There's no thread, there's no storyline, there's no book. Because this time, their expectations were met. They're like, we love oranges. It was just, it was a perfect example of having the right expectations and then meeting them. Now, of course, he could meet them better than anybody, so it was about Vasey. But even so, the fact is that we hadn't quite gotten it right in Boston, and by New York, we did. And so that's what I mean about creating the right expectations.

[5:30] Kevin David Thomas: Incredible. And so as a press agent, you have relationships not only with producers and directors of the Broadway shows, but you have relationships with papers and with media outlets.

[5:38] Susan L. Schulman: Of course, yes.

[5:39] Kevin David Thomas: I never even thought that.

[5:40] Susan L. Schulman: Yes, of course, you know every single reviewer of the New York Times.

[5:43] Susan L. Schulman: Well, I mean, I always think we're all in this together.

[5:46] Kevin David Thomas: Yes.

[5:46] Susan L. Schulman: Because we all see everything and we all, but I'm not sure critics think that, but I think that, because I think at the end of the day, we're all in this business because we love it. And we're not in it to make money, because we could all make a lot more money doing something else.

[6:00] Kevin David Thomas: Sure.

[6:00] Susan L. Schulman: And that's true of critics as well, and journalists. So I think that we're all in it because deep in our hearts, you know, we love the theater. And so when I say we're all in this together, that's kind of what I mean. Of course, sometimes we're not on the same side. You know, it's like anything.

[6:16] Kevin David Thomas: What do you think makes a good theater critic?

[6:19] Susan L. Schulman: Wow, that's a good question. First of all, they have to love the theater.

[6:23] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[6:23] Susan L. Schulman: And I'm always surprised when somebody is hired to be a theater critic who brings no theater experience to the table. It's like shocking to me that that happens and it does. Obviously, you have to be a good journalist, but I think they really need to love it. And I'm not sure everybody does anymore. Of course, nowadays, they're bumping off theater critics. You know, so many of the major newspapers have cut their theater critic, which is shocking and horrible.

[6:48] Kevin David Thomas: Sad.

[6:49] Susan L. Schulman: Very sad.

[6:50] Kevin David Thomas: Did you always know that you were going to get involved in a theatrical career?

[6:54] Susan L. Schulman: I grew up in New York. I was a theater kid. I used to hang out at stage doors. And I didn't want, I really didn't want anybody's autograph. I wanted to tell them how much they had impacted my life.

[7:09] Kevin David Thomas: So that's awesome.

[7:10] Susan L. Schulman: I know.

[7:10] Kevin David Thomas: Where were you? Some of your first stage tours that you would go to?

[7:12] Susan L. Schulman: Oh, my God. I went to, oh, everybody. I mean, Man of La Mancha, you know, and sometimes people would befriend me and they would be nice to me and they would say, do you want to see the set or you want to come backstage? But I was a little kid. I mean, I was like in high school. And I really, I really didn't want that. I didn't care if I got their autograph. I just wanted to sort of say I that was so moving to me. You know, you changed my life or whatever. And or I'd write them letters. I would write. That's how I started with Mary Martin. I wrote her a fan letter and she answered. And so I wrote her another letter and she answered and I wrote another letter and she and this went on until she died.

And I didn't know till years later that there were like a million people that did that. I thought I was the only one who wrote fan letters. Back when people really did write fan letters. But they answered, you know, or they or I'd say, I'm coming to see your show on such and such date. Could I meet you? This was before people had lined up outside stage doors. You know, they didn't do any of that stuff, barricades and stuff. It wasn't like even for big, big stars. It wasn't except for, you know, like Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor, but not for most, most Broadway stars. And so I would sometimes they would leave my name at the stage door after after matinee and I would, you know, get invited back.

And it was just because I wrote a nice letter. It wasn't I didn't want anything. I didn't, you know, I had no axe to grind or anything. I wasn't like, you know, I wasn't going to sell it or anything. I was just a little fan.

[8:40] Kevin David Thomas: The love of theater.

[8:41] Susan L. Schulman: Yeah. And I guess they knew that, you know, I guess it was communicated in some way because it was genuine. It wasn't I had no agenda. And so I, I loved it. I went to shows all the time, but I didn't see any way that I could ever be part of it. I couldn't imagine.

[8:57] Kevin David Thomas: You never saw yourself as a performer. You never thought maybe I'll act.

[9:00] Susan L. Schulman: I used to do, you know, shows and summer stock and college and stuff. But I think in my heart, I knew I wasn't good enough. I knew I wasn't tough enough. I was always sort of a big fish in a little pond. You know, I'd get discovered once a year and some agent would say, oh, here's my card. And then nothing would happen, you know. But I think I always knew I wasn't tough enough, but I couldn't imagine how I could be part of it. I came from a family of educators and entrepreneurs. Nobody ever was in the theater. Nobody had anything to do with the theater, you know. But they supported the arts. Oh, they took me to the theater from the time I was five. My parents took me to Broadway shows. So I loved it and they loved it too.

But it wasn't a career. You know, it wasn't what you, you know, you grew up and you became, you know, a teacher or a doctor or something else. You know, you didn't become a press agent. I wasn't one of the list on the list. But the, I couldn't imagine how I could be part of it. I just was a fan and I loved it. And I read everything and I knew everything and I knew all the players. I knew the names of everybody, you know. And what happened was when I was in college, I, by instinct, not because I even knew what I was doing, I was kind of the one beating the bushes for plays. I was always the one coming up with schemes for how to, it turns out, publicize it. But I didn't really know that's what I was doing. I didn't have any, you know.

[10:23] Kevin David Thomas: Was this undergrad at NYU?

[10:25] Susan L. Schulman: At NYU. But even in the summers, I would do it. But what happened was when I graduated from college, Manny Azenberg, who was a very big producer at the time and still is, had been an NYU graduate many years prior to my graduating from college. And Manny was sort of the great star of NYU. And so everybody would go to Manny for a job. Everybody who wanted to be in the theater. Now, Manny was the only person I had. And I didn't know Manny. I mean, he would come to shows and I sort of vaguely knew him, but I didn't know him. And he was, you know, a hot producer at the time, hot young producer. And I went and interviewed with the somebody in Manny's office and they kept saying, call us in two weeks, call us in two weeks, call us in two weeks, call us in two weeks.

And this went on for quite a long time. And at the same time this was going on, I had interviewed for a job at Lincoln Center, Inc. And Lincoln Center had just been built. And so Lincoln Center was quite the hot place to be. And I was so naive and so dumb that I really didn't even know what the job was. I mean, I was, it was a lackey job. I couldn't type or anything useful. So it was like, I wasn't the secretary or anything. It was much less low, much lower down than that. And so on one hand, the theater job, the Manny Azenberg glamour show busy job, they kept saying, call us in two weeks. On the other hand, Lincoln Center kept offering me jobs and I kept saying no. And finally, my mother said, you think maybe it's not, this is now maybe September, October after I graduated in May.

[12:03] Kevin David Thomas: And what was your degree in?

[12:04] Susan L. Schulman: Theater and English. It was theater and English. Which turns out, of course, how much more perfect could that have been? You didn't know that was a job. Okay. So I, I keep, I keep turning down Lincoln Center, Inc. And I keep holding out for this, this, you know, job and never, never landed with Manny. And finally, my mother said to me, very practically, you think maybe it's time you got a real job, you know, instead of waiting for this. And so I thought, oh, all right, I'll take the job at Lincoln Center because the other, you know, until the other one comes through. And so I did. And it turned out, now this is where life surprises you. Now, I was a little kid. I didn't, I didn't know how to do anything.

I couldn't type. I couldn't do anything useful. I was bright and I was capable and I was, you know, I had good instincts, but I didn't have any skills that anybody would actually pay me to do. You know, it turned out that the job, which I didn't even know what department it was in, this shows you how dumb I was, was to be the assistant to the press director for Lincoln Center.

[13:11] Kevin David Thomas: Really?

[13:12] Susan L. Schulman: Wow. Now, everybody talks about the fork in the road. If the job in Manny's office, and by the way, eventually I worked for Manny as his press agent. So, you know, life comes full circle. But if that was without knowing it, a fork in the road, where if the job with Manny's office had come through, I probably would have eventually become a general manager or a company manager for which I am so not suited because to be a company manager, it's all about payrolls and contracts and numbers and all the things that really I could care less about. And the fork in the road led me to Jack Frizzell, who was the press director for Lincoln Center, Inc., who was the world's most lovely human being, the best first boss anybody could have ever had because he was so kind and gentle and funny and helpful and supportive. And I was just in the right place at the right time. Nothing to do with my, you know, nothing to do really with me. I just was in the right place at the right time.

[14:20] Kevin David Thomas: You just took the job.

[14:21] Susan L. Schulman: Yeah. And so worked for Jack for a year and a half. Loved him. Loved working at Lincoln Center. Lincoln Center was very much, you know, the hot, buzzy place. And at the end of a year and a half, by this time, I was sort of the little golden girl. Everybody liked me and I did a good job and I learned and I was bright. They had a cutback. And because I was the, you know, last one in, I was the first one out.

[15:29] Susan L. Schulman: And because, as I say, because I was the first one to get fired, they made calls for me and they helped me. I always said if I was the third one fired, nobody would have lifted a finger, but because I was the first one, they were nice to me. And so I wound up going from Lincoln Center into working for Frank Goodman, who was a theater press agent, and that was sort of my foot in the door. So it's a long, convoluted answer to a very simple question.

[15:53] Robert W. Schneider: No, but it's funny how so many legends that we've talked to, a lot of the reasons why they got where they are is because some serendipitous moment happened and it wasn't planned or anything and it just, that fork in the road moment, it's fascinating.

[16:04] Susan L. Schulman: You know, the thing that I always say is that it was, I mean, this part of it was totally luck. I was totally in the right place at the right time. But the other side of it is that I had exactly the qualifications that somebody needed. I had this theater and English background where I could write and I could, I got it. I understood what it was about. And so I was really very well suited for this job, although I'm not sure they really knew it. You know, it was a combination of things. I'll tell you another, one of those accident things that happened. There is a wonderful store called the Drama Bookshop.

[16:38] Kevin David Thomas: Of course, yes. Where your book is.

[16:39] Susan L. Schulman: Where my book is. I love the Drama Bookshop. I always have loved the Drama Bookshop. Years ago, Drama Bookshop was on 52nd Street. This was several incarnations ago. And when I was in college, I guess, I used to go up to the Drama Bookshop and, you know, pick up plays that we were doing or whatever for readings or whatever we were doing, like everybody else. And now this is now after college and after Lincoln Center and Frank Goodman. Maybe I was around that time. So maybe I was a year or so out of two years out of college. And I'm going up to the Drama Bookshop and the door opens on the wrong floor. I mean, on another floor. And it opens and I see a sign that says, Bill Dahl and Company. Now, because I was a theater kid and because I used to read the back of the book and programs, I knew that Bill Dahl was a theater press agent, was a big theater press agent.

So the elevator door opens. I see the sign. I get off the elevator. I go into the Bill Dahl office. I say, could I leave a resume? Now, why did I have a resume? I have no idea. I had a resume with me. And they say, sure. And they look at me, say, can you wait a minute? I say, sure. They look at my resume. They say, can you wait a few minutes? I say, sure, because what am I doing? I'm going to the Drama Bookshop to browse, right? I wait a few minutes. They say, Bill would like to talk to you. They take me to the back. I meet Bill Dahl, who is this old style Southern gentleman who is just Mr. Mr. Showbiz. Yeah. And we chat and he says, can you start on Monday?

[18:06] Susan L. Schulman: Wow. And it turned out that somebody had left like, you know, a minute before I got off the elevator. They were looking for somebody to do to pitch radio and TV. I had just been doing that at Frank Goodman's office. And the reason I wasn't at Frank Goodman's office was because the show had closed. And in those in all press offices, the number of shows dictates the number of people that work there. It's a union thing. And so I walk in off the street, literally off the street, literally off the elevator and get a job with one of the biggest press agents in New York. I mean, and wind up handling Applause.

[19:02] Kevin David Thomas: Wow. Wow. And that was your first Broadway show.

[19:02] Susan L. Schulman: My first show from scratch. I'd worked on other shows in the other offices that I'd worked for other press agents in between. And what a show to work on from scratch. But talk about being in the right place at the right time. I know. And luck. Because truly, I didn't know Bill Dahl was in that office, in that building. Yeah. The elevator opened and in fact, when I launched my book, I did an event at the Drama Bookshop and I said to Alan, who's the owner, I said, you know, my career is thanks to the Drama Bookshop. And he said, what do you mean? And I said, I'm going to tell a story at this thing because really, it's true, you know?

[19:38] Robert W. Schneider: And I mean, is that the dopiest thing? That's completely true. And you mentioned this in the book. So would you be so kind as to tell our listeners how old you were when you got your first Broadway musical?

[19:49] Susan L. Schulman: I was 23. I'm sorry. I just dropped the microphone. But you know something that is so nuts that that happened, the way it happened and what happened. And I'll tell you what happened. But it was it was unheard of and it shouldn't have happened. But it did. What happened was everybody in the Bill Dahl office was working on Applause when it started. Had Lauren Bacall. I mean, it's this big, big, big show. It was written by Comden and Green for Betty Adams and Strauss, directed by Ron Field. It was created as a vehicle for her. And she was it was her first musical. She had done two comedies on Broadway. And this was after years of being the kind of the queen of Hollywood. And then Bogey died and she was kind of dumped by Hollywood.

And she decided to come back to New York where she grew up and returned to the theater and go to the theater, which is what she had always wanted to do initially before she became a movie star. Anyway, so Applause was being created by her friends for her as a vehicle to showcase her. So it was built around her persona. Everything about it was was created in a way to showcase Betty's what Betty brought to the table. And she was the first one to tell you that she wasn't a great singer. She wasn't a great dancer. But but it was it was a time when vehicles were created to to showcase a big star and and at what they did best. And so the reason that a show like Applause doesn't get revived very often and doesn't really work anymore.

First of all, it's very dated. But second of all, because it it was so specifically created around her persona that it sort of doesn't work when it's somebody else. Like Barbra Streisand and Funny Girl almost.

[21:29] Kevin David Thomas: Exactly. You need that somebody that's so distinctive and so uniquely theatrical.

[21:29] Susan L. Schulman: Totally. And it sort of doesn't work. There's only one Bacall in this lifetime, you know. And it's been done with very good other people. But it just it's just anyway. So what happened was Bacall was tough. She'd had a tough life. She was a tough cookie. And she didn't suffer fools very well. And she was she desperately wanted to do well in Applause. I mean, it was so important to her. She wasn't believe me, she wasn't phoning in. She took singing lesson every day before rehearsal. She took she worked with a dance instructor on the side. She really was serious. I mean, she was working it. And, you know, was was wasn't selfish at all about the actor. She wanted everybody to have their, you know, to shine.

She she was very gracious to everybody. She was very kind to everybody. And she was the she was the den mother. She was the mommy in the company. Somebody got hurt, they were brought to her dressing room, you know, she was the mom. Anyway, so during rehearsals, everybody was in the press office was kind of afraid of her because she was a tough cookie. And she'd let you know what she wanted and what she didn't want. And she was very definite about it. For some reason, I could see that underneath this sort of tough exterior that that she was kind of a big softy. And I don't know why I could see it maybe because I was a young kid. She didn't feel she had to put it on with me. I don't know. But for whatever reason, a woman and well, but I was a kid.

I mean, I was really a young kid. Yeah. Anyway, the because everybody was kind of afraid of her a little bit. And for good reason, she was she was, you know, she could be tough. She would ask if something was done. And they would say yes. And then she'd find out it wasn't done and she'd kill them. And I with the innocence of youth would say she'd asked me if something and I'd say, I don't know, I'll find out if it isn't done, I'll take care of it. And I wasn't being manipulative. I just I mean, I didn't know any better. I mean, I was just I was just an answer. Well, I was honest. I mean, I was just straightforward kid and I really wanted to do good and I was trying hard and wasn't manipulative.

Somebody years later said to me, how did you manipulate that? I said, I could barely get my clothes on right. You know, right side out. I couldn't. I'm not sure I could have done it now, but I certainly couldn't have done it. Anyway. So one day I'm called into Bill's office and he says, we just had a meeting with Larry Cash and Joe Kipnis, the producers of Applause. And Betty has told them so stupid that the only person she will deal with that she will speak to in the Bill Dahl office is you.

[24:15] Susan L. Schulman: So here I am. It was it was nuts. Really, it was nuts. So here I am, 23. I'm not even in the union yet. I'm not even I'm still apprenticing to Atpam, which is the press agents. I think I was going to ask. Yes. And I'm still apprenticing. I don't even have my weeks to get in the union. And I am now informed that I am the sole person in the Bill Dahl office that Betty Bacall will speak to.

[24:39] Kevin David Thomas: God, nuts.

[24:39] Susan L. Schulman: It's really incredible. It was it was nuts. Nowadays, nobody would let this happen. I mean, it was it was crazy, but it did happen. But she was, you know, Len Cario told us how he, you know, she will approved his casting. Absolutely. She was she was there for the callback. So that's I'm saying she she was absolutely on top of her game. She was calling the shots. And so for her to go to Kipnis and Cash and say this, it was nuts. And so for her to go to Kipnis and Cash and say this, it was nuts. So so there I was. And the thing that's so funny is I look back now and I think, well, what were they? Were they crazy? I mean, like, what the hell did I know? You know, I mean, I was I had good instincts and I certainly try.

I mean, I work night and day, but I mean, they let it happen, you know, and they did let it happen because they it's a good account. So so in order to keep the account, you know, suddenly I was a little more valuable. I didn't get a penny more. I'll tell you that. In fact, I'll tell you something mean when when opening night came on because I was I was so thrilled. I mean, I was like over the moon, you know, here I am handling this. I mean, I'm sure I was in such heaven. And I was so kind of in love with everything about it. You know, I was so enamored with her. I couldn't believe that I was, you know, I could walk into the palace stage door and someone would say, hi, Susan. You know, I couldn't believe it. It was like, magic. But that's how it happened. And it was just amazed by that.

[26:27] Kevin David Thomas: So was I. Well, it's obviously panned out quite beautifully. What were some of your responsibilities for publicizing that show? I mean, you're, you're, you've got this great big star doing her first musical. So I'm assuming that's an easy in. But what else did you have to do?

[26:43] Susan L. Schulman: Well, interestingly, because Bacall was such a big star, she really didn't want it. And she'd, of course, done everything by this time. She, you know, she'd been a huge Hollywood star and all she really didn't want to do a lot of publicity. And so it was my job to figure out how to sort of deflect things that, you know, journalists say wanted Bacall. And I'd say, well, unfortunately, Betty is, you know, on vocal rest or whatever, you know, her schedule. Yeah. But how about Penny Fuller? How about Bonnie Franklin? How about Len Carrue? How about Leroy Reams? You know, how about Brandon Maggard? And so it was a matter of finding all the other things that I had to sell and, and getting them coverage.

And it was, it's also things like designing the front of house, the picking the photos that go out in front of the theater. Nowadays, it's done more by the advertising agency, but in those days, it was done with a press agent. So, you know, you really, you really had to balance, you know, people's billing against people's importance to the show, to the relationship with the star, you know, visually. That was me making those decisions. Yes. And also it's, it was, you know, there were thousands of interview requests for, because it was a huge hit. And then of course, it won the Tony for Best Musical. And so it became an even bigger hit. But it was because of Bacall initially, and also it was Comden and Green.

It was Adams and Strauss who had done Bye Bye Birdie. It was everything about the show. There were so many hooks for things. And there were lots of opportunities for some of the gypsies, the chorus dancers in the show, where I was, you know, I would do hometown stories, for instance. And because it was a very happy company, because it was, she set the tone and the star of the show very often does set the tone of a company. And she set the tone on that one, because she was so happy. She was so, it was such a happy time in her life.

[28:35] Susan L. Schulman: And the funny thing was that I'm somebody who always introduces myself when I meet somebody, I never say hi, I always say hi, I'm Susan Schulman, because I hate that momentary blank look in people's eyes, where they're trying to figure out who you are. And I hate that. And I wish everybody did that, because it would make life a lot easier. Because none of us are that, you know. And so for the rest of her life, whenever I'd bump into Betty, and this went on for years, I'd say, Hi, Betty, Susan Schulman. And she always would say, I know who the hell you are. And then she would give me a hug. Always, always gracious, never a time when she wasn't gracious to me. And I believe it was because she would always say the same thing that was like, it was like our act, you know, Hi, Susan Schulman.

And she said, I know who the hell you are. And give me a kiss. And but I think it's because I was part of a very happy time in her life. Yeah. And so in her mind, I was identified with that. And I was very protective of her. And I cared. And she knew I cared. I mean, I adored her. She was wonderful to me. And I was, as I say, I was a little kid. So I always thought if she had ever, you know, come at me with, you know, that other side of her personality, I, I'm sure I would have crumbled because I didn't have any defenses. I didn't have a way to cope with that. And I think she knew that I think she must have instinctively.

[31:58] Susan L. Schulman: I think that the most important thing is to be passionate about what you do. If you love what you do, it shows, and it resonates with people.

[32:25] Susan L. Schulman: I remember when I first started in this business, I was so eager to learn. I would soak up everything like a sponge, and I think that curiosity is what has driven me throughout my career.

[32:53] Susan L. Schulman: There were so many incredible moments that I experienced, from working with legendary performers to being part of groundbreaking productions. Each experience taught me something new.

[33:21] Susan L. Schulman: I always believed in the power of storytelling. Theatre has a unique ability to connect people, to make them feel, and to inspire change. That’s what keeps me going.

[33:50] Susan L. Schulman: I think it’s essential to support new voices in the industry. There’s so much talent out there, and it’s our responsibility to lift them up and give them opportunities.

[34:19] Susan L. Schulman: I’ve had the privilege of working with some of the most talented individuals in the business, and I’ve learned so much from each of them. Collaboration is key.

[34:43] Susan L. Schulman: I often reflect on the challenges I faced along the way. There were times when I doubted myself, but I always pushed through, and that resilience has shaped who I am today.

[35:09] Susan L. Schulman: I believe that every setback is an opportunity for growth. It’s important to embrace those moments and learn from them.

[35:35] Susan L. Schulman: The relationships I’ve built over the years are invaluable. The connections we make in this industry can last a lifetime, and they often lead to new opportunities.

[36:01] Susan L. Schulman: I’ve always been an advocate for the arts. It’s crucial to remind people of the importance of theatre in our society, especially during challenging times.

[36:19] Susan L. Schulman: I think about the legacy I want to leave behind. It’s not just about the work I’ve done, but also about the impact I’ve had on others.

[36:48] Susan L. Schulman: I hope that people remember me as someone who was passionate, dedicated, and always willing to help others succeed.

[37:15] Susan L. Schulman: There’s something magical about live theatre. The energy, the connection with the audience, it’s an experience like no other.

[37:40] Susan L. Schulman: I cherish the moments when I see the joy on people’s faces after a performance. That’s what it’s all about.

[38:06] Susan L. Schulman: I’ve always believed in the importance of mentorship. It’s vital to guide the next generation and share the knowledge we’ve gained.

[38:36] Susan L. Schulman: I think it’s essential to stay true to yourself and your vision. Authenticity is key in this industry.

[39:06] Susan L. Schulman: I’ve had my share of challenges, but I’ve always approached them with a positive attitude. It’s about finding solutions and moving forward.

[39:36] Susan L. Schulman: I’m grateful for the opportunities I’ve had and the people I’ve met along the way. Each experience has shaped my journey.

[40:05] Susan L. Schulman: I believe that art has the power to change the world. It can inspire, provoke thought, and bring people together.

[40:34] Susan L. Schulman: I often think about the future of theatre and the direction it’s heading. I’m excited to see how it evolves.

[41:03] Susan L. Schulman: I hope that we continue to push boundaries and challenge norms. That’s what keeps the art form alive and relevant.

[41:32] Susan L. Schulman: I’ve always been passionate about diversity in the arts. It’s important to represent all voices and stories.

[42:02] Susan L. Schulman: I think about the impact of my work and how it resonates with audiences. That’s what drives me to keep going.

[42:31] Susan L. Schulman: I’m proud of the legacy I’m building, and I hope to inspire others to follow their dreams in this industry.

[43:00] Susan L. Schulman: Theatre is a reflection of society, and it’s our job to tell those stories authentically.

[43:27] Susan L. Schulman: I’m grateful for the support I’ve received from my colleagues and friends. It’s a community that I cherish deeply.

[43:52] Susan L. Schulman: I believe that the best is yet to come, and I’m excited for what the future holds for me and for theatre as a whole.

[44:22] Susan L. Schulman: Thank you for allowing me to share my journey and my thoughts. It’s been a pleasure to reflect on my experiences.

[44:57] Kevin David Thomas: David Merrick, who really, really, really wanted to be back on Broadway and wanted people to, you know, sure, right, acknowledge his name above the light. Exactly. And so it went from this nice little touring show, whichever, which was like comfort food for theatergoers to be coming to Broadway, Broadway, Broadway, showbiz. And it wasn't it was never intended to come to Broadway. And so all of a sudden, slam bam, we're getting ready for Broadway. Suddenly we have a theater and we have a date and we're going to Broadway, you know, and part of us is hysterical with joy because we love the show so much and we're so happy about it. And the other part of it is like, should we really be going to Broadway with this show?

Because this maybe isn't it was very it was done in a very old fashioned way. It was all what push sticks are moving scenery. It's the old fashioned way of pushing it out with a stick as opposed to it having tracks on the stage floor. I mean, there were tracks, but they weren't electrified. So literally push sticks. So you'd be sitting you'd be standing in the stage and there'd be a wagon with a set piece on it and guys would go. It's very old fashioned. I'm showing my hands on the radio. I'm pushing. I'm pushing. And that's how the sets moved. They had painted backdrops, which was very old fashioned. You know, it had a painted show curtain, very old fashioned. You know, it wasn't just the fact it had an overture.

I mean, yeah. And and it was but it was done beautifully because it was Rodgers and Hammerstein and God knows, you know, you want to Waltz. Let's get one of them. You know, let's get a Richard Rodgers. Well, and it was so it was beautifully done and the people were wonderful. And of course, they'd been touring for nine months. So they, you know, they were great. And so suddenly we were coming to New York with a new logo with the big blue ribbon and money, you know, or so we thought. And it was something, you know, and it but it wasn't supposed to happen that way. It wasn't nobody. And nobody was more surprised than the Rodgers and Hammerstein Association because they didn't think it was going to happen.

And in fact, they had to get their permission because they weren't entirely convinced it should. Now, it did come to Broadway and it got mostly very good reviews. The sad thing or not sad, but the but the interesting thing was that it opened during the same season as Rent. Yes. And so here we had on one hand, we had this, you know, hip cutting edge show that everybody was lining up outside to see. And on the other hand, we had this very old fashioned, warm and fuzzy, you know, traditional, traditional, very old fashioned, but very endearing show. And I always you know, this is the eternal question, if it had opened in another season, would it have been different? Of course. And maybe yes, maybe no. You never know.

But it was very interesting because the contrast between the two shows was so extreme. You know, it wasn't as if they opened against, you know, a sort of traditional other kinds of shows, which were around. But here was Rent, which was, you know, the cutting edge of its day, really. Exactly. I was thinking that. Yeah. And and this very kind of throwback, old fashioned show for which there was an audience. But it was it was very interesting. And it was because because David Merrick really wasn't David Merrick anymore. And and and his spokesperson, his companion, we would have a meeting and David Merrick would say we'd ask him a question. And he was he was there. He was in there sometimes, but he couldn't speak.

And so you would ask him a question and he was sort of mumble. And then she would say, well, Mr. Merrick feels and she would talk for 20 minutes. And you'd think, wow, she got all that from me. You know, it was very hard to keep a straight face because she would say, well, Mr. Merrick feels and she would just go on and on and on and on and on. And you would have to listen because, you know, she was, as we used to say, she was standing on David Merrick's money. And so it was a very peculiar thing because she didn't know anything. I mean, she wasn't right. She spent her whole life in the theater. Exactly. I mean, if he said something, you would listen because he was David Merrick and he knew, you know, but she really didn't. And so it was very peculiar.

And eventually it kind of turned into a mess and, you know, but but before it became a mess, it she decided to fire everybody and including the press agent. And I mean, everybody got fired. The company manager, the general manager, the press, everybody got fired. And I, of course, was devastated because it was I mean, it was my heart, you know, I mean, I just I cared so about the show and I cared about the people so long. And I loved it. I mean, I genuinely loved it and I loved everybody in it. And it was a very it was a very close company. And again, I'm still very close to most of the people in that company. And but I was also humiliated because I was here. I was this spokesperson for for this show and everybody knew I was the press agent.

And suddenly I wasn't the press agent. And I had to come up with a sort of response because everybody was going to call me and say what happened. And so I created a very artfully concocted sentence. Now, keep in mind that David Merrick was famous for doing this. I mean, he was famous for firing people and famous for his, you know, suing people. And he was I mean, this was how he created his persona. And so I and I have to have to think about it was it was I'm honored. This was the statement that I issued when people asked. I'm honored to join the long list of distinguished theater professionals to be fired by David Merrick. Amazing. Oh, my gosh. Wasn't that good? That's genius. I worked very hard on that.

Thank you. I really did. I'm honored to join the long list of distinct. I worked very hard on that because my heart was broken. I mean, my heart was broken. I was devastated. And and the you know, but you had to say something because everybody was calling me and luckily everybody got it. They got the sarcasm and they got the tongue in cheekness of it. And I was treated very well because my career could have been over. You know, I could have been trashed in the media and, you know, never gotten another job. And so it was I was prouder of that statement than almost anything. But so you talk about love, hate, you know, I mean, I love that show. I love the people in the show. I loved the the all roads led to me.

I was involved with every second of that show. I was involved with every bit of it, the tour, the Broadway, everything, the post. I then handled it post-Broadway. There was a national tour with John Davidson and I handled that with another producer. So, I mean, it was in my heart, you know, but it was also devastating because it was such a difficult production and it went through so many ups and downs and it was, you know. And chronicled quite brilliantly in your book. Oh, thank you. Well, in Backstage Pass to Broadway, there are some critics have pointed out there are sort of two or three big stories that I tell. And then there are lots of smaller stories. And one of the big stories is working with State Fair and David Merrick and all of that.

It was Merrick's last show. And in fact, a couple of years later, he died. And because I was the sort of press agent of record for the last show he did, a lot of media people called me. And of course, I didn't know if they wanted to know if he was really dead and I didn't know if he was really dead or not. I mean, they didn't call me to tell me, you know. So I kept saying, I don't know if he's dead or not, but I'd like to kick the coffin. But yeah, it was it was an adventure. Amazing. Speaking of adventure, we're going to go back in your chronology. Oh, my God. Can we talk about Zero Mostel? Yes. And talk about dying. And yeah, where were you? This is the this is this is a word of truth. When the star dies, it's a sign not to go on.

I would think you heard it here first, ladies and gentlemen. But in this case, we did. You were like, we're taking the play to Broadway. We're coming in anyway. Would you tell us a little bit about what this play was? This was one of those shows that we all have scars from. You talk about difficult productions. The show was the play was called The Merchant, and it was Arnold Wesker's telling of the story of Shylock, the merchant of Venice, from the Jewish perspective. And Zero Mostel was cast as Shylock. It was directed by John Dexter, who was a very famous and very difficult English director who had done your wall. Thank you. Equus, Equus, Madame Butterfly and Butterfly. I should know when Zero Mostel passed away, but I can't remember.

Seventy eight, I think. Oh, OK. Gotcha. Yeah. Seventy seven. Seventy seven. OK, so The Merchant. Yeah, The Merchant. So The Merchant starts rehearsals in New York. It's Marion Seldes, Sir John Clemens, Roberta Maxwell. It was it was quite an impressive company. And Z, who Zero Mostel is known as Z, before the show began rehearsals, he lost 100 pounds on a one of those liquid diets that was very in fashion then. And it was all under medical supervision. It was he passed the physical for the insurance. I mean, it was all fine as far as everybody knew. Started rehearsals. And Dexter, who was a very caustic, cutting, very sarcastic director, known known to always have a whipping boy in every company and really cruel kind of director, pitted people against each other.

And you kind of had the feeling that if it could go wrong, it would go wrong. It was one of those shows where we kept saying this little black cloud and and things kept happening, you know, things that in and of themselves didn't seem like such a big deal. But when you put them all together, you thought, oh, my God, you know, this is like disaster. So finally, the show goes to Philadelphia where it's going to play Philadelphia and then it's going to play the Kennedy Center in Washington, and then it's going to come to Broadway. It's produced by the Schubert's, by Roger Stevens, by the Kulikundis, big, big, you know, big players, big engagements. Legit. Yeah, big, big. Everyone thought this was going to be the sort of high, high class show to see intellectual show to see of the season, The Merchant.

We go to Philadelphia because of all the things that were going on and all the dramas backstage and a lot of very unhappy people being mean to each other and mostly Dexter being mean to people, but a lot of conflict. They never had enough time to actually run the play to do a full dress rehearsal before the first preview. Oh, yeah, because it was a big show. It was a big, physically big show, big sets, big costumes, big everything. And so the first preview in Philadelphia, which was on a Friday night, ran over four hours. Yeah. And this was a serious, serious, serious play, four hours, really long. And and as you know, in the theater, there's something called golden time, which is if anything runs past three hours, everybody gets paid a lot of money.

That's right. So you don't want to run beyond three. So four hours, really not good. So everybody. So but but they got through it. They'd never run the full play before. So this was like a miracle that everybody got through it. So for the audience as well. It was it wasn't it wasn't I mean, you could see that it was going to be good, but it wasn't good yet. Yeah, it needed to be cut. And and people didn't know their lines. And, you know, I mean, it was it was not. Wow. Before over four hours. OK. So after the show, we all go up on stage and we're all sort of so relieved that they got through it. Yeah. But nobody died. Everybody got through the show. Well, and so we were supposed I was with Merle Dubosky, who was the senior press agent.

I was the associate on the show. And we had come down for the Friday performance and we were going to stay through the Saturday matinee and then take the train back to New York. And that night after the preview and it was late and the Schubert said, do you want to drive back with us in the limo now? You know, like two o'clock in the morning or something. And so we thought, sure, why not? OK, fine. So so we get in the limo and we drive back to New York the next day, Saturday before the matinee. Z's in his dressing room and he doesn't feel well. And they take him to the hospital. They cancel the matinee. We're in New York and he's in the hospital and they're trying to figure out what's wrong with him and he's having tests and nobody knows what's wrong with him.

And meanwhile, everybody's suggesting cuts in the play. They're saying, well, you know, that scene could be. And because everybody knows it can't be four hours long. I mean, they this is a given. And so they keep doing tests on Z and they keep not knowing what's wrong with them. And they everybody's in limbo and nobody knows what's happening. And finally, they decide that they're going to cancel the Philadelphia engagement. They've done one performance in Philadelphia and they're just going to come back to New York and rehearse in New York and then they're going to open at the Kennedy Center. So they discharged zero Mustel from the hospital. His wife is on the way to the hospital to pick him up.

He falls out of bed and drops dead. Oh, yeah. Wow. Yeah. OK, so now we have zero Mustel. The reason that everybody is doing The Merchant. Right. It's like his name. It's zero Mustel in The Merchant. Yeah. Right. And, you know, this famous Jewish actor who's famous for playing, you know, Tevye. Yes. Dead. OK, so we all think, well, we've been waiting for the other shoe to drop on this production because everything that could have gone wrong has gone wrong. The other shoe has now dropped. Zero Mustel is dead. Right. It can be worse than this. He's dead. I, by the way, I'm in New York City and I'm watching the news on television and I see zero Mustel dies. I didn't know. Oh, my God. So nobody bought it.

I guess I think Merle knew, but I didn't know. So I'm watching. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So anyway, so he's dead and we all think, well, so is The Merchant, because when the star dies, the show. But we were wrong. And John Dexter.

[59:56] Susan L. Schulman: I think one of the things that I learned early on is that you have to be a good listener. You have to listen to what people are saying, and you have to be able to read between the lines. You have to understand what they really want, not just what they say they want.

[1:00:26] Susan L. Schulman: And that’s a skill that I think is really important in this business. You have to be able to anticipate needs and be proactive. It’s not just about reacting to what’s happening; it’s about being ahead of the curve.

[1:00:56] Susan L. Schulman: I remember when I first started, I was working with a producer who was very demanding, and I learned quickly that if I could anticipate his needs, I would have a much easier time. So, I would always try to think a few steps ahead.

[1:01:03] Susan L. Schulman: And I think that’s true for any job in the theatre. Whether you’re a press agent, a producer, or a performer, you have to be able to think on your feet and adapt to the situation.

[1:01:33] Susan L. Schulman: One of the most rewarding parts of my job is when I see a show succeed. It’s not just about the press; it’s about the entire team that comes together to make it happen. I love being part of that process.

[1:02:03] Susan L. Schulman: I’ve had the privilege of working with some incredible artists over the years, and each one has taught me something different. It’s a constant learning experience, and I cherish that.

[1:02:18] Susan L. Schulman: I also think it’s important to give back to the community. I try to mentor young people who are just starting out in the business. I want to help them navigate the challenges and find their own paths.

[1:02:33] Susan L. Schulman: The theatre community is like a family, and I believe in supporting one another. We all have our struggles, but we also have our triumphs, and it’s important to celebrate those together.

[1:03:03] Susan L. Schulman: I’ve seen the industry change so much over the years, and while there are challenges, there are also incredible opportunities. I think it’s an exciting time to be in theatre.

[1:03:33] Susan L. Schulman: I always encourage people to stay true to themselves and their vision. It’s easy to get caught up in what others think you should do, but at the end of the day, you have to follow your own instincts.

[1:04:03] Susan L. Schulman: I remember a time when I was working on a project that everyone said was too risky. But I believed in it, and I fought for it. In the end, it turned out to be a huge success.

[1:04:33] Susan L. Schulman: So, I think it’s important to have that courage to stand up for what you believe in, even when it’s difficult. That’s what makes the difference in this business.

[1:05:03] Susan L. Schulman: And I think that’s what keeps the theatre alive. It’s the passion and dedication of everyone involved that makes it special. We’re all in this together.

[1:05:33] Susan L. Schulman: I’ve had the pleasure of working with some of the most talented people in the industry, and I’m grateful for every experience. Each project has its own unique challenges and rewards.

[1:05:41] Susan L. Schulman: I think it’s important to celebrate the successes, no matter how small. Every little victory counts, and it’s those moments that keep us going.

[1:05:49] Susan L. Schulman: I also believe in the power of storytelling. Theatre has a unique ability to connect people and evoke emotions. That’s what makes it so powerful.

[1:05:57] Susan L. Schulman: I’ve seen shows that have changed lives, and that’s something truly special. It’s a reminder of why we do what we do.

[1:06:05] Susan L. Schulman: I think it’s important to keep pushing boundaries and exploring new ideas. The theatre should always be evolving and reflecting the world around us.

[1:06:13] Susan L. Schulman: I’m excited to see where the future takes us. There are so many talented individuals out there, and I believe they will continue to push the envelope and create amazing work.

[1:06:21] Susan L. Schulman: I’m proud to be a part of this community, and I look forward to seeing how it continues to grow and change. It’s an exciting time to be involved in theatre.

[1:06:29] Susan L. Schulman: And I think that’s what keeps me motivated. The love for the craft and the people involved is what drives me every day.

[1:06:37] Susan L. Schulman: I hope to inspire others to follow their dreams and make their mark in the industry. We need fresh voices and new perspectives to keep the art form alive.

[1:06:45] Susan L. Schulman: So, to anyone listening, I encourage you to take risks and believe in yourself. The world needs your stories and your passion.

[1:06:53] Susan L. Schulman: Thank you for allowing me to share my thoughts and experiences. It’s been a pleasure to reflect on my journey and the incredible people I’ve met along the way.

[1:07:01] Susan L. Schulman: I look forward to seeing what the future holds for all of us in the theatre community. Let’s continue to support one another and create magic together.

[1:07:09] Susan L. Schulman: Thank you for this opportunity to share my story. It means a lot to me, and I hope it resonates with others.

[1:07:17] Susan L. Schulman: May we continue to celebrate the art of theatre and the incredible individuals who make it possible.

[1:15:25] Susan L. Schulman: It was fascinating. Until this recent HBO documentary came out, I always felt nobody ever knew about it. People had forgotten about it because it was a long time ago. In fact, that brought it all back into people's consciousness. It was the precursor of all these reality shows.

[1:15:43] Robert W. Schneider: Wow.

[1:15:44] Susan L. Schulman: If you have HBO Go, the movie is on HBO Go for free. The Cinema Verite. It's fascinating because they intercut the original series with actors playing the characters. So it's like reality, reality.

[1:15:59] Kevin David Thomas: Very meta.

[1:16:00] Susan L. Schulman: It was very meta.

[1:16:01] Kevin David Thomas: Who came up with that idea? Who was like, let's do a documentary TV show of this?

[1:16:05] Susan L. Schulman: It's a documentary TV show.

[1:16:07] Kevin David Thomas: It's brilliant.

[1:16:08] Susan L. Schulman: It's really weird. I've never heard of such a thing. And they pretty much got it right. I mean, they didn't get everything right, but they got a lot of it right.

[1:16:13] Kevin David Thomas: Do they say where that family is now? I mean, do we even know?

[1:16:16] Susan L. Schulman: They're around. I mean, I think Lance has died, actually.

[1:16:19] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, he passed.

[1:16:20] Susan L. Schulman: There was a follow up. Years later, he did a documentary. What was sad was that he became this sort of gay icon because he came out on national television.

[1:16:30] Kevin David Thomas: Right, and not many people, I mean, no one did that in the 70s.

[1:16:35] Susan L. Schulman: I mean, so this was really early on in the story. And then there was a follow up documentary about him. And the sad thing was that he was sort of touted in the original series as being this sort of wildly creative, imaginative, you know, kind of, you know, gay icon sort of character.

[1:16:53] Kevin David Thomas: And the truth was that he sort of never did anything, you know, and he really wasn't all that talented.

[1:16:58] Susan L. Schulman: He wasn't all that, but he was, you know, he had the flamboyant part. He had the name Lance Loud.

[1:17:02] Kevin David Thomas: Lance Loud. Thank you. And he became sort of famous for being famous.

[1:17:06] Susan L. Schulman: Yeah, sure. Like the first reality celebrity in a way.

[1:17:10] Kevin David Thomas: And you know, coming out on national television and all this stuff.

[1:17:13] Susan L. Schulman: I just can't imagine being known because he came out.

[1:17:15] Kevin David Thomas: Well, you know, it's like the Kardashians. They're famous for being famous and he was sort of famous for being famous.

[1:17:21] Susan L. Schulman: And sadly, he passed away, I assume, from AIDS.

[1:17:25] Kevin David Thomas: But I'm not sure. I think so.

[1:17:27] Susan L. Schulman: But that was all part of it. And it was really, you know, it was quite shocking. It was quite shocking to see this couple, you know, split up on live on television. It was real. I mean, the image for the show was very interesting. The Louds had given Channel 13 a photograph, a family photograph of all of them, a Christmas picture or something.

[1:17:49] Kevin David Thomas: And the art department decided to make the image of the show, they framed this family portrait and then they smashed it.

[1:18:00] Susan L. Schulman: Yeah. And so the broken glass of the, you know, the cracked image of the family in the frame was the image for the show.

[1:18:09] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, man. And Pat Loud, when she saw it, was livid because she felt they weren't cracked, they weren't broken, they weren't, you know.

[1:18:18] Susan L. Schulman: And, you know, in her eyes, she had these wonderful children. They were all going to be famous. And Channel 13 did this. And I mean, that was their artistic choice. And it was she wasn't happy.

[1:18:26] Kevin David Thomas: She wasn't happy about that.

[1:18:31] Susan L. Schulman: And truthfully, I don't blame her. I mean, she was she was right. But that was an artistic decision. And the producers, the producers wanted it. And that's what happened. But yeah, was was interesting. And all of this is chronicled in your book. So tell us what was the inspiration to write the book?

[1:18:46] Kevin David Thomas: Obviously, you have all of these amazing stories and everybody always says, well, one day I'm going to write a book about it. You actually did.

[1:18:54] Susan L. Schulman: I know. I can't believe it myself. What happened was I I would tell my friends all these stories as they were as I was living them. And people would say, I hope you're writing this stuff down. And I didn't. I didn't write them down at all. And I just I was so busy living it that I kind of didn't it didn't even occur to me to write them down.

[1:19:11] Kevin David Thomas: Sure.

[1:19:11] Susan L. Schulman: The only story that I wrote down at the time was about Abby Hoffman. Abby Hoffman had written a book called Steal This Book. And a client of mine, Pete Masterson, who wrote Best Little Whorehouse in Texas, commissioned it, and he decided that he was going to make it into a film because he was doing films as well as theater.

[1:19:29] Kevin David Thomas: Right.

[1:19:29] Susan L. Schulman: And one day he said to me, Abby Hoffman has this idea that we're going to do a publicity stunt and will you help us with this? Now, Abby Hoffman was a fugitive at this time. He was living underground. You couldn't you couldn't call him on the phone or you couldn't you had to like leave a message or something and then he would call you if he felt like it. It was all very peculiar.

[1:19:57] Kevin David Thomas: Amazing.

[1:19:57] Susan L. Schulman: And I didn't know how to reach him. I was nothing to do with me. I was just sort of a I was a helper in this project. So the deal was that Karlyn Glenn, who was Pete Masterson's wife, was starring on Broadway in Best Little Whorehouse in Texas. And the story was that she's at the theater one night and she gets a note from a fan who says, may I come back and meet you? And the fan arrives in the dressing room with a huge bouquet of flowers, presents her with the flowers. His girlfriend takes a picture and it turns out it's Abby Hoffman. That was the setup.

[1:21:02] Kevin David Thomas: OK, so, of course, it didn't just happen like that, but so the deal was after the after performance one night, Abby and his girlfriend arrive and we set up this picture and it's Karlyn and this man who we don't know who it is, supposedly, and the flowers are sort of blocking his face and and then and then, golly, gee, it turns out it's Abby Hoffman. OK, that's the that's the story. So I my job is to play is to place this story. And what happened was it was kind of a comedy of errors. I would get it placed in time and then it would something would have a bigger story, would come along and it would get bounced. So then I'd go to Newsweek and then they would say yes, and then that would get bounced.

And then I'd go to the AP and the AP would say yes, and then it would get bounced. And because as it was happening, it was so nutty and it was the whole thing was so crazy that I wrote it down. And so I actually have the sort of day by day chronicle of this episode of trying to place this stupid story about Abby Hoffman, this famous fugitive taking a picture in a Broadway dressing room, starring my client and roses. OK, so so the whole stupid story and, you know, in the great scheme of things, it's nothing. But as a result of this, I wound up having an FBI file, which I didn't know I had until much later. And eventually somebody told me how you can get a copy of it. And I got a copy of it. And it's all redacted.

Is that the word? It's big black, like in the movies with big lines. And it's like Susan Schulman, blank, blank, blank. And of course, I truly was the innocent in the whole thing because I had no idea. They wanted they called me and they said, how do we reach Abby Hoffman? Well, I really didn't know because I had never been in touch with I was just kind of the handmaiden. I was exactly not not such a good one, it turns out. But although it did, it did run. So I did earn my keep. But it was crazy because it was like I have an F I had an FBI file. It's amazing. I set up a silly photo with some guy and flowers. And that story was the inspiration for. Well, it happened that I wrote it down. It just happened to be the one story I wrote down.

So at one point, somebody said to me, you know, you really should write a book about this. And I thought, well, and I had a slow patch. And so I started to write the the the chapter about the merchant. And just because it was so dramatic, you know, as I say, when the star dies and I wrote it and I somebody said to me, you know, this is this is really fascinating and it's really good. You should submit this to a magazine. I didn't know how to do that, but I there was a magazine at the time called Show People.

[1:23:22] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, yeah, that was a lovely magazine.

[1:23:25] Susan L. Schulman: It was a time magazine. Yes, so did I. And I knew somebody that was on the editorial staff. And I said, I have this piece. Would would you be interested in seeing it? And he said, absolutely. And I sent it over. And the next thing I knew, it was published. And I thought, oh, this is easy. I'm in a time magazine. I was really crazy. I mean, I thought it was like that's how it happened. It turns out really not. And so it was published. And then from that, it sort of grew into a book. But that's how it happened.

[1:24:00] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, my amazing. And where can one purchase this one?

[1:24:01] Susan L. Schulman: Thank you for asking. One can purchase Backstage Pass to Broadway. And if you are in New York City, it is at the Wonderful Drama Bookshop, which was the cause of me getting a job with Bill Dahl. It's no longer in the same location. It's now on 40th Street. It's at the Drama Bookshop. It's also in another wonderful theater bookstore called Theater Circle on 44th Street, which is also a theater maven's dream come true. And it is available on the website, W.W.W. Backstage Pass to Broadway dot com. Backstage Pass to Broadway dot com. What a clever good URL.

[1:24:34] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah. And if you buy it through there, I would be more than happy to sign it and inscribe it to anyone who would like it.

[1:24:41] Susan L. Schulman: Yeah. How sweet.

[1:24:43] Kevin David Thomas: And is there a rumor that there might be another edition?

[1:24:45] Susan L. Schulman: There is. There is. Actually, there is going to be a second edition. And the second edition has even more stories about it, about my career. And it includes three new chapters, one about working with Mike Nichols.

[1:24:58] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, yeah. One about working with Prince Edward, who is the queen of England's youngest son.

[1:25:03] Susan L. Schulman: Oh, yeah. And what's the third new chapter?

[1:25:06] Kevin David Thomas: I'm trying to think. I forget.

[1:25:08] Susan L. Schulman: It sounds great. Yes. But but also what happened was when I was recently moving my office about a year ago, I discovered all kinds of files that I had lost, not lost, but I didn't know where they were. And I found all kinds of photos that I hadn't been able to find initially and all sorts of little anecdotes and little funny quotes and things that I had forgotten about.

[1:25:34] Kevin David Thomas: Right.

[1:25:34] Susan L. Schulman: And so the the second edition has a lot of those stories. There's a wonderful story in the book about working with the president, with with President Reagan. And there was a story about setting up a photo with Ronald Reagan and Robert Joffrey and their son, little Ronnie Reagan, as we called him, who's a dancer in the in the junior company at the Joffrey. And I couldn't find the picture. And I had I had photo researchers. I had people searching high and low and nobody could find this picture. And when I was downsizing the office a couple of years ago, lo and behold, I found newspaper clippings. And so it was kind of the button on the story that I didn't have because I couldn't find it. And lo and behold, now I have the button on the story. So it's little things like that.

[1:26:20] Kevin David Thomas: That's great. I cannot wait to look at the second edition.

[1:26:23] Susan L. Schulman: It's fun. It's sort of more of the same.

[1:26:25] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, fine with me.

[1:26:28] Susan L. Schulman: With me, please.

[1:26:29] Kevin David Thomas: Yes, please. Buy this book. Check it out. And it's great to backstage past abroad to see Broadway from another set of eyes, you know, in another job that maybe you don't always think about.

[1:26:39] Susan L. Schulman: And that is people don't even know what a press agent not. And I think hopefully now they will.

[1:26:43] Kevin David Thomas: You know, now we're going to you know, you know, it was interesting when I was writing the book. Initially, it was quite different. And for one thing, I imposed my opinion of circumstances. Something would happen. I would tell a story and I and I would say, what was she thinking? You know, I would I would editorialize. And at some point I thought.

[1:27:07] Susan L. Schulman: I don't need to do that, I think the reader should figure that out, should should make their own judgments on what was she thinking. And so I took all of that out. And so so it's very nonjudgmental. I mean, you you get it, you get you get the facts are enough. If you if something's terrible happening, you get it. But but I don't say, you know, well, wasn't she a witch? You know, I I let you make that decision. And the other thing that was interesting, because I really had never thought about this, was when I initially wrote the book and I still believe this, the only reason that anyone's going to buy my book is because of the stories about really famous people. And, you know, they're always buying the book because it's Susan Schulman. They're buying the book because it's about Lauren McCall and Zero Mostel and Bob Fosse and David Merrick, you know.

[1:28:53] Kevin David Thomas: And so people that read earlier versions said, well, we don't know who's talking. You know, why are you in that room where it happens, you know, who are you? I mean, we need to know why you're there. And that was a really interesting thing, because I I still don't think anybody buys my book because of me. I think they buy the book because they're they're stories about really famous people that I've worked with over my career. And so I had to figure out how much of me needed to be in the book in order to enhance the stories, give the context and so you understand like and as as they said, you know, like, why were you there? I mean, we don't know who you are. And I thought, well, that's that's valid because, you know, why am I there? Well, I'm there because I had a function. I had this is why I was there. And so that's why that was an interesting thing to figure out and one that I hadn't really thought about.

[1:29:52] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, totally. You know, it was interesting.

[1:29:55] Susan L. Schulman: Oh, wow. Well, and it's it's wonderful. And I cannot recommend it.

[1:29:57] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, aren't you kind? You are wonderful. And thank you so much for spending so much time with us.

[1:30:00] Susan L. Schulman: Thank you. I'm so glad.

[1:30:03] Kevin David Thomas: I know there will be a way to go home and watch American Family.

[1:30:09] Susan L. Schulman: That's right. Yes.

[1:30:11] Kevin David Thomas: I'm so I get the book and we didn't even talk about Henry Winkler.

[1:30:15] Susan L. Schulman: My God, the Fonz.

[1:30:16] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, yes. So I will I will just put a little sample in here. There is a great chapter in the book about the Fonz and Susan's relationship with the Fonz. Now, you have to buy the book, I'm not going to tell you anymore.