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[0:00] Winnie Holzman: My name is Winnie Holzman, and you're listening to ELEVEN, the official theatre podcast.

[0:17] William J Connolly: Hello, and welcome to ELEVEN, the official theatre podcast that brings the biggest stars and creatives together in one place to discuss life in the arts. She's the Tony-nominated and Drama Desk-winning playwright and screenwriter of Wicked, who's brought the magic of Oz to life through her thrillifying storytelling of its two most famous witches, both on stage with the musical and through the recent two-part blockbuster movies. To mark 20 years of Wicked in the West End and her remarkable adaptation for the stage, which has welcomed more than 13 million people to over 7,500 performances in London alone, we take flight to celebrate two decades at the Apollo Victoria Theatre. So direct from her home stateside, it's congratulations all round, as she shares wonderful memories of reuniting with her original creatives once again to begin their West End journey back in 2006, and how she sprinkled hidden gems of the original 1939 The Wizard of Oz movie into her musical script, and how Gregory Maguire's original novel, which kick-started this new chapter, inspired the smash-hit show we all love.

She also walks through the origins of some of her favourite lines in the show, how she built signature scenes around key character arcs for her leading ladies, and her tight collaboration with Wicked's music writer, Stephen Schwartz. Plus, the joy of having her work translated into different languages and cultures across the last two decades, the key plot through line of the spoken dialogue, it's not lying, it's looking at things another way, and why Wicked is constantly asking audiences to open your mind to a new point of view. She also explains the development of the song, What Is This Feeling?, and why it was workshopped through different drafts and musical options during development, understanding that change is scary for principal characters and also for humans, as she learned fast when writing for Glinda, as well as the vitality of exquisite storytelling in her act two opener, Thank Goodness.

We also rejoicify her recent double box office hits with Wicked on the big screen, why the fans' desire for the movie adaptation never went cold throughout the years, and why Wicked Part One and Wicked for Good were never about simply repeating the musical in a new medium. And she reveals the swankified global power of the original Broadway cast album, memories of meeting Idina Menzel for her first Wicked audition back in 2001, and how it changed the trajectory of Wicked forever. Plus, she also zooms in on Madame Morrible's denouncement of Elphaba in Defying Gravity, and why spoken word in such a huge act one closing song helps her leading lady step into her power, and why for her, London is very special to us, as she lords the remarkable women who have led her show in the West End. It is the genius mind of Winnie Holzman, here now on this, the next episode of Eleven, the official theatre podcast.

[3:13] William J Connolly: Please help me welcome to this, the next episode of Eleven. She is the Tony-nominated and Drama Desk-winning playwright and screenwriter of the global blockbuster and smash hit Wicked, that's brought the magic of Oz to life thanks to her thrillifying storytelling, an often heartbreaking tale of the two witches of Oz, with so much more to tell across the last 20 years in London. And I'm honoured to say that she's here to tell me all about two decades at the Apollo Victoria Theatre, as the West End production steps into its 20th anniversary this September. So I say congratulations, Winnie Holzman. Can you believe it's been 20 years?

[3:50] Winnie Holzman: I can't, William. How can anyone believe it? I mean, it's ridiculous. It's really hard to believe, but we're so grateful. I mean, London, it's very special to us, London. Our production there has, we're so proud of it. And from the very beginning, it's meant so much when, from the beginning, when Idina went over and Joe and Stephen and I all went to mount it in London, which is, it just seems, doesn't seem that long ago. It's been really a special, special, you know, it's held a special place in my heart.

[4:26] William J Connolly: Whenever people talk about the Wicked production in London, people always use this term definitive. It's this sort of definitive production. And I guess that's because all of you came together for the first time since Broadway, those original creatives, to kind of give it a little bit of a facelift, to try and find some new things in it and to sort of, as Stephen told me yesterday, correct some things that they didn't quite get time and you didn't get quite time to do. So what was it like back in 2006 when Wicked was going to be coming to London? And the fact that Broadway had been such an interesting reaction, but of course you had such critical success with Idina, that actually you knew that there was a great expectation and excitement around it. But also, you know, there was a little bit more work to do. What was that process like, mounting it specifically in the Apollo Victoria?

[5:03] Winnie Holzman: Well, I think what it was really like, at least from my point of view, is that we had some time away, if you see what I mean. Like we'd opened in 2003, in the fall of 2003 on Broadway. And, you know, we were, you know, when you're first opening a show, you're kind of like, it's at the end of a long marathon, you know, you're kind of like gasping for breath, you're like a little fish lying on the beach gasping for water. And so, you know, you're ready to kind of go, I need to lie down, you know, so we've had like this really, this time away from each other and from the show. And so what that did is it gave me, anyway, and I think all of us, like sort of, you know, we had like a new, fresh feeling coming back together.

It was fun. It was, you know, we were already doing really well in New York, and audiences were really embracing it in New York. So you had that confidence that we didn't have two years before, or three years before, I'm not really good at that. But, you know, when we were first opening on Broadway, there's the fear, are people just going to hate it? Is it just going to close in a month? You know, you don't have any sense of where you are. But we were coming to London with this sense of like, we're fresh, you know, we're ready, like, let's just take a look at it with new eyes, you might almost say. And that's what, you know, much more than a facelift, if I may just add to your beautiful imagery.

It was, it was kind of like, you know, yeah, I mean, facelift in the sense of, you know, we all felt a little less haggard. But, um, but we were, we were looking at it going like, so what are the moments that we feel could be better, betterized? There were these individual specific moments that all of us felt could be better. And, and it was, it was the perfect moment to work on it together when we were refreshed, when we were ready to come back to it to come back to the material. I mean, for any writers listening, they're probably really identifying with what I'm saying. Because sometimes the best thing you can do when you're working on something is to take a little time away from it. And then you come back to it with fresh eyes. And you suddenly have these insights that you really, you were sort of worn down, you couldn't have them before.

[7:22] Winnie Holzman: Stephen spoke to me about some of those very specific moments, because I sort of said to him, what were the things that you wanted to change? I know there was the direction and the change of the opening number with the removal of the now iconic, which hat from the beginning, but also from a script and a musical perspective, it was the All Stars Ballroom. And it was some of the Glinda characterizations, which Miss Helen Dallimore, of course, led here in London. And also, it was in act two with the wizard and Elphaba. And it was the removal of that. So what, what was the tweaks and changes that you felt kind of those were the things that you knew you wanted to change? Was it the fact that you wanted to drive a particular narrative more in London? Or was that you just wanted to sort of update some of the things that you had in New York?

[8:03] Winnie Holzman: Well, everything we did in London, we ended up putting into the show and became absolute part of the show for Broadway and for anywhere in the world that Wicked's ever done. So we just wanted to make it better. Like I said, like in the second act with Elphaba confronting the wizard, we always felt there was something about that moment that wasn't landing as powerfully as we thought it could. And I think I came up with a few new lines. Like, I think that's maybe wrong. I don't have the best memory in the world, William. But I think it was more, it was like that line where she says, I, you know, do you know what my heart's desire is? Or I think I'm saying it a little bit right? Do you want to know my heart's desire is to fight you till the day I die?

Well, heart's desire is a reference to the Wizard of Oz movie, you're nodding. And, um, you know, anytime I could find a really organic way to use a reference to the movie, but that belonged, and that helped me tell our story even more strongly. I loved it because it was like doing a few things at once. Do you know what I mean? Harkening back to the movie. And for people that don't know the movie as well, it doesn't matter because that was still a powerful thing to say, to fight you. I don't think she was saying when we first opened in New York, I want to fight you. My heart's desire is to fight you till the day I die. It gave her this, it gave her this impetus into the next part of the act of the conclusion.

Um, and that's just one example, but that'll give you an idea of like the kinds of things we were looking for, just strengthening, you know, making, giving more impetus to moments. We did, we did do, actually my daughter pitched a line, she's a really good writer. And, um, but back then she was really young, but she did, she was in college, I think, but she pitched a line, um, that we, that's in the show that I, I just wanted more of a moment when, uh, Fiyero almost runs over. Um, in the beginning, when he first makes his first entrance in that little vehicle, I don't even know what to call it. And, um, she said, well, um, she, she said, have him say, maybe the driver saw green and thought it meant go.

And, um, you know, I loved the line and I didn't have, I had all kinds of stuff in there that we were playing around with, but I didn't have something that caught me that was like sort of punchy like that and showed and showed that he, you know, I wanted to make sure that you saw that he wasn't mean. I mean, this is something we, we always felt about Fiyero. He's never putting her down from the very beginning or making fun of her the way other people are, uh, frankly, in inches, but he's, he's frank and he sort of thinks, well, maybe that did, you know, maybe that's an explanation. Like he doesn't have a good explanation for what happened. So he's like, he goes to that. He's not trying to be nasty. He's just sort of saying what might've happened, you know? And, um, so those are, those kinds of things like sort of punchier, punchier, more, more to the point moments.

[10:58] William J Connolly: And you're so right, because there are so many points of the story where by definition, and of course, by default, Wicked is kind of the driving force in some of the decisions that people make. However, there are so many moments, particularly in the second act, where, especially with Elphaba, where you sort of have to start to understand why she has some of the wickedness and the hatred that she does eventually end up seemingly ending the story with where you think, oh, that's why we think of it like that. I'm just thinking of lines, particularly in that scene in act two with the wizard, where it's, um, you know, I'd actually go back to a time when I believed you were wonderful, because that's the moment that we all come into the story.

And it's so clever in the way in which you've managed to connect some of that original story in there. And it feels like that sense of familiarity is something that when you were first writing, creating this, you knew there had to be something that didn't feel brand new to people. There's something that felt like an old friend, perhaps.

[11:50] Winnie Holzman: Well, like that puts it beautifully. I mean, our goal was always and this is kind of a complex goal, but it was always that for people for whom the movie meant a lot, that they, that they would, that we would never mock the movie, or, you know, we would have fun with the movie, which is lighthearted fun or enjoyment of the movie, which was while still respecting the reality of the movie. In other words, we would never say, Oh, forget that movie, it never happened. You know, here's our story. That seemed disrespectful. And especially Stephen and I grew up, you know, loving The Wizard of Oz, as did many people of our generation in our, you know, in our sort of time zone. And I know in your country, too, it was just the movie meant a lot.

But we also had to always be cognizant that if you were if you were from a different culture, say, or if you were just a person who didn't know the movie or didn't care about the movie, we wanted you to be able to hook into the story in the same way and still feel her and feel the story. Because after all, now that we've been a hit for a while, it's been I'm sure Stephen has mentioned this, but you know, it's been in so it's been a it's been seen and translated into so many languages, where people haven't a clue about what a munchkin is, they don't really care about somebody melted somebody, you know, they don't care about that. You have to be able to meet them where they are. And, and the and that Elphaba is this girl who was born another color, who's really, really been put through the mill for that reason.

But at the same time, she what it's done is it's upped her compassion for her passion about injustice and her feelings about when she sees injustice become overwhelming for her because she's experienced so much injustice herself. And I think also, just because of the kind of person she is, I think you could become a person who has experienced a lot of injustice and become a very embittered, narrow person who just wants to be alone and doesn't care, you know, seemingly doesn't care, but she's didn't go that route. You know, obviously, she cares.

[14:02] William J Connolly: Is that also why, for example, when you think about people's connection to the, I guess, the original source material with the Wizard of Oz that Dorothy is a, yes, she's a silhouette, but she's also a non-speaking part, you don't ever enter into that world, which feels like we're constantly in the lane of these two women, which means that we're looking at everything through the lens of where we find them, as opposed to where the audience meets them, if that makes sense. It's always through where they are. I assume that was a very deliberate decision.

[14:28] Winnie Holzman: Very deliberate. I mean, that's why I have the line in the show, which repeats, where he says, it's not lying, it's looking at things another way. In Gregory Maguire's novel, you know, this brilliant novel that he wrote, he's looking at the entire story of the Wizard of Oz from the point of view of the Witch of the West, which of course is just a genius.

[14:51] Winnie Holzman: So when we had the opportunity to adapt that story and make it our own, that was one of the things we clung to from Gregory, which was, absolutely, this is another POV, another POV on the same story. So we, you know, it's like, it's like people say, you know, when you're talking about each other, you know, you might say, well, like, he, he's, he like, he's everyone's the lead character in their own movie, you know what I mean? Like, you know, and everyone else is supporting, you know, everyone else is a supporting player in your movie and you're the lead. Well, she's the lead. And then when we're with Glinda, that's where we parted from Gregory a little, a little bit, although not, not really, you know, he, he made Glinda very real, very real.

And of course, he had the brilliant idea of putting them together as roommates. But, um, but when we're, you know, when we're with, I don't know, I can't talk about it. You know, it's funny, William, I wrote the movies more recently than I wrote the show. So I sometimes think of the movies by accident without meaning to, but, but the whole way that, um, yeah, that we're led to just, to see a story in a new way, to me, that's part of the magic of Wicked because it's what it's saying to the audience is open, open your mind to a new point of view. You, you think, you know, a story, but you may not know, you may not know the whole story. And also you have to think about who told you that story and what their motives were. And they're so relevant, of course, to our world right now, a news story, who's telling it, who decided, whose interests are being served by promulgating that story.

[17:35] William J Connolly: Do you think that's also why so much of Wicked is based on these two women, as opposed to, as you say, with the novel based and anchored around Elphaba? Because I feel like there are people that come into this story in this world that, that adore Elphaba, like we all do, but they're very much sort of team Glinda per se. They're very much on her side and they enjoy that side of it. And actually some of the decisions that Glinda make while she does it in beautiful frocks, gowns and a smiley face are pretty cutting as well. And it's interesting that the characterization and the way in which you've made some of the decisions understandable, but not necessarily normal with Glinda, are so incredibly intelligent, I think, to your writing, but also really interesting that an audience chooses to say, well, actually, I see it from her perspective being different.

And she's actually the one, if I may be so blunt, that they're probably on side from the beginning and they're against the green one to start with. And it's interesting that that sort of happens. Was that an intentional decision? And were you surprised initially when it opened in San Francisco and then Broadway and obviously, of course, with London, that people kind of were like team Glinda more than team Elphaba? Did you think they'd all go green?

[17:37] Winnie Holzman: No, I'm not surprised because I think what it is, is it's really about, I mean, this is where the song Loathing actually comes from. And that was a song that Stephen and I discussed at great, great length. And he actually wrote several other songs there that we ended up not going with. And when we finally found the idea of Loathing, I had come to this, I guess you could almost say realization that I wanted to talk about what it's like when you meet someone who's going to change your life, completely change your life. And sometimes when you meet someone who's going to completely change your life, it's not, you don't instantly go, oh, this is really fun and comfortable. I like it. What you are often is incredibly threatened because change is scary.

And so what happens with Glinda, go Glinda, is she meets this girl who is so threatening to her on every level. It just threatens her. She, she's sort of like who she sort of secretly wishes she could be, you know, and that's really scary. And I think people like, I think even though we don't spell that out, it's done subtly, but I think people identify with Glinda who is meeting someone who's really, really threatening to her and she doesn't even know why. And so she kind of lashes out and she uses what she has, which is popularity. You know, there's strength in numbers. I really fit in, you don't. So like she uses everything she can in her arsenal. But truthfully, what she's doing is fighting, fighting, fighting the fact that she's drawn to this person that she wants to understand who this person is and how she could be more like her.

And that's what, and Elphaba's feeling a lot of that too. So I think that's why people don't sort of take sides, so to speak. I don't think they do. I think they feel for both women. I think there's people who are on Glinda's side, but that's fine. I mean, look, there's certainly room for that. And I think it also would depend on where people are in their life, right? Don't you think?

[19:41] William J Connolly: Do you think that's also why Act Two, in particular, the very beginning of Act Two is so, so popular with people that go to, they say, I like musicals, but I really like Thank Goodness, because Thank Goodness has so much depth. That is the point of which if a Glinda is not an actress, it will become very apparent pretty fast on. Because it, this is really cool, but it's got so much punch in that moment that it's so easy to see the flaws in an actress in there. And when you sit there and you see someone that really understands the writing that you've done, it's quite something. It's powerful because, you know, people are both stereotypes of themselves and never, and never. There's so much more than they appear to be, which is really what our show is partly about.

That, you know, under the surface, behind the scenes, under the surface, I mean, then he's talking about evil, but under the surface, there's so much more to us. The surface presentation is real, though. People buy into it, you know, whether it's the nerd, you know, or the ugly girl or the pretty girl who everybody likes, you know, these stereotypes are real, but they're never, they're never the end of the story. They're never the whole truth. They're a presentation of something that somebody has developed in order to get through life, you know. And then when we start, when the mask slips and we start to see beneath, what we see is how much everyone, first of all, we see how much we all have in common.

But we also see that sometimes what looks like the person who's sailing through life is really struggling with their choices. And I think Glinda was, even when she was Galinda, was never just the fluffy popular airhead that she pretended to be. And that's what we were talking about before, about why does she look at Elphaba and get freaked out? There's a reason, you know, it's because it's like, would I dare to be that person?

[21:43] William J Connolly: Can I ask you about 2006 and the changes that were made in London with the lovely Miss Helen Dalimore, who I spoke to about six hours ago, from the point of which I'm talking to you, about her extraordinary journey originating Galinda in London. And we spoke so much about how much change we saw in Galinda in terms of, I guess, the sort of definitive version of Galinda that we see internationally now, which is incredibly comedy led, but also in that equal to the Elphaba as well, and also really giving it punch in terms of the way in which she presents Galinda, and it's big and it's bold, and perhaps a bit more overt than sometimes we saw with Kristen Chenoweth, which is such an interesting development of a character.

Obviously, do adore Kristen Chenoweth. What was it like, and I guess, why did you want to make some of those big, bold changes to Galinda in terms of sort of getting her as the equal, having some of those changes, and perhaps more importantly, having the British accent?

[22:27] Winnie Holzman: Well, you know, first of all, everyone that's played both of those parts, I honestly have been blown away by the incredible talent and depth of these young women who've stepped into both of these roles and just made it their own. And I think there's a lot of room in the role for people to come in. And I think, honestly, I can't remember all of the ways in which we were working with both women when we were first putting it up in London. But what I do remember is working hard. In other words, let's use what you bring, which is always a good idea, I think, with any actor that you've cast. To some extent, I mean, you don't want to change the story for the person, but you want them to bring what they... And so Helen probably, my guess is that she probably was giving off something that we picked up on and that we sort of went, yeah, let's go in that direction.

Because that's when you're really getting, I think, the most out of any performer, is when you're letting what comes out of them naturally kind of blend with what you need. I mean, all I can say is it's been done by so many different young women, both roles. And I can remember a moment, I don't know if Stephen said this to you, but when we were first, you know, when we first sort of had it, but I guess we were just barely opened or about to open on Broadway. And I remember he turned to me and said, because we had really fashioned these roles onto Kristen and Idina, we'd written them thinking of their vocal ranges, thinking of their personalities, very much influenced by who those two women were.

And I remember Stephen turning to me and going, is anyone else ever going to be able to play these roles? Well, guess what? It's been incredible, right? It's kind of like, you're too young to remember this, but there was this movie called Field of Dreams. And there was this famous line in this American movie where he says, if you build it, they will come. I don't know if you know that line. It's about a baseball field. It has nothing to do with Wicked, but if you build it, they will come. If you build these roles that have depth and power, people, young, incredible women have risen up to, no pun intended, but risen up to reach, to understand and reach and bring so much of themselves. You know, it's a very, I love that.

I would never want someone to feel like, well, gee, I can't really be who I am because Glinda has to be blank. I don't feel that way. I think that's probably why Wicked in London has felt so quintessentially British as well, is that it is not trying to emulate and copy what was done in the United States. We were in a very breezy new moment. That was a very, that's why I said it meant a lot to me personally, because it felt really fulfilling to be able to have that breath of fresh air, so to speak.

[25:41] William J Connolly: Did you do the same approach and have the same approach when it came to, I guess, one of the most recent chapters of Wicked With You, which was the adaptation for the big screen?

[25:49] Winnie Holzman: Absolutely. I mean, so many people would say to me, and to Stephen, I'm sure, what's taking so long? What's taking so long? Well, first of all, it took the exact right amount of time. But one of the benefits of it taking, quote unquote, so long, and I didn't feel it was taking that long, we were working on it. We're working on it on and off while all of us doing other things. It took the right amount of time. But what I'm trying to say is that, yes, similarly, I needed that time away to cogitate and really just come. It was very important to all of us with the movies to create something that was really true to the movies. We weren't trying to replicate the show and stick the show up on the screen.

We were never trying to do that. We were trying to come fresh and really think in a new way. I think the movies reflect that. I think you can see that, you know, while there's so much of the show, obviously, the spirit of the show is completely in the movies, but there's so many ways that we played around that we just created from fresh, honestly. We were thinking very out of the box.

[27:12] William J Connolly: You referred a second ago about the way in which Wicked has been translated, even to the people that maybe haven't come in contact with the Wizard of Oz. One person that I think penetrates the entire world is, of course, the extraordinary Idina Menzel. I had the pleasure of seeing Wicked in the full-scale Japanese production in Tokyo. I was telling Stephen and Helen earlier yesterday actually that the people behind me were talking about, and obviously I didn't understand anything, but they kept saying the words Idina Menzel. I could understand that that was the translation. It was so interesting that this singular human being with this God-given voice and talent in this particular role, which would have been probably over 15 years since she departed the Broadway and subsequent West End companies, that her, obviously it's the cast album, but her…

[28:04] Winnie Holzman: I was going to say the cast album is really beloved, you know. I mean, I had this experience a few years ago. Stephen and I went to Sweden. It was being done in an opera house in Swedish, entirely in Swedish. The young cast were very tearful when they were greeting us, and they were telling us how much it meant to them to be in Wicked. I think maybe one of them had gone across to see it in London, but most of them only knew it from the cast album. But they still had this great feeling that they had grown up with it, that they'd grown up with the cast album. So I think that's a big part of Idina's powerful effect that she's had on worldwide audiences. You know, that cast album is really loved.

Can I ask you what it was like then, writing for a character and adapting it from the book, and the way in which you put yourself in her shoes in so many of the different scenarios that Elphaba entails? And then you do San Francisco, and then you do Broadway and London. But in that very first moment when Idina was painted green for the first time in those extraordinary costumes, and she was in the world of Oz, and she was a real-life human being stood in front of you. Do you remember what that moment felt like to see the person that you helped create on the page in real life stood there in that vessel of Idina Menzel?

[29:19] Winnie Holzman: Well, I can remember the first time she ever met her, which was when she auditioned for us. And it's an indelible memory for me because it was literally like three days after 9-11. So New York was in a shock, obviously, as was the country. And I happened to have flown in the night before to be with Steve.

[29:40] Winnie Holzman: Because we were going to do casting. And finally our casting person, I guess about three days after the tragedy, said to us, you know, I think we better just do some casting because people here, meaning New York actors, you know, people in New York, they just need something to do. So that was what the first time I had, I've been living, I live in LA and I don't travel that much. So, um, I had never seen Idina on stage and I had never met her and I was blown away by her then. I remember feeling like she had walked out of my mind, like onto into real life because she had this incredible vulnerability plus this, this incredible beauty, but she seemed unaware of her own beauty. And I think that's partly who she is now that she's an international superstar.

Maybe she's a little more aware of it, but I don't think so. She's, she's such a, she's such a down to earth, um, delicate person. Um, she's really amazing. So that's my biggest, you know, my biggest intensive sort of thought about her. And then as she was playing it, you know, I was trying to, to sort of use myself and use her both. Like I would, I would watch her. I would think about me, you know, I, I grew up kind of, you know, bookish, um, shy to some extent, although I, I, I then took acting lessons and suddenly I sort of could pretend I wasn't shy, but, um, you know, pretty, pretty introverted person and, and kind of, and kind of, um, kind of overlooked in certain ways, you know, if I may say, you know, I'm not the person who had like a lot of dates when I was growing up, so I could really feel into, to a lot of Elphaba.

[31:22] William J Connolly: Can I ask you about one very particular moment in the show, which I always find incredibly powerful as an audience member is just before the first verse of "Defying Gravity" is the denouncement by Madame Morrible to the audience, of course, to the citizens of Oz, but also of Elphaba. And it's the first time that we truly see the tide change in terms of desperation. And I do truly believe it's desperation to get out of there from Elphaba versus this power that's starting to come over her. And it's incredibly, even to talk about it, it feels emotional because it's kind of that feeling that's really hard to describe where someone is so truly desperate to not be in that place where they are at the point of which obviously we see what happens at the end of that first act.

But it's so interesting that Madame Morrible, this character, which I guess is almost the only character in it that is truly wicked from start through until the very end, that she's the one that says it. And of course, in London, there's this very famous effect that comes with that speech, which is where it pierces every corner of the auditorium. And it's very quiet. It's not you giving lots of words to a character. It's not you getting Stephen to write a big song that sort of pushes her away. It's one lady saying to another lady, you are going down, and I'm going to be the person to do it. Why was that an important decision for you to make that the moment in which we see wickedness truly come into play before we then see the rejection? Because that moment is so deeply iconic to your writing and to your work that it's fantastic.

[32:54] Winnie Holzman: Well, thank you. Well, first of all, the way in which she's brave, the way in which Elphaba is brave is something we can all reflect on because courage doesn't have to do with never feeling fear. Courage has to do with feeling fear and deciding to do the right thing anyway, in the face of terrible threats and fear, right? In the face of life-threatening threats. So, it's a moment where you can see. I mean, two minutes later, Glinda says, don't be afraid. And she says, I'm not. And I always thought that was, I mean, I think people play it this way, that it's a discovery. It's a realization. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Actually, I'm not. I thought I was two seconds ago. When I hear the word, don't be afraid, that's the moment she realizes, I don't have to be.

I refuse to be. I mean, it's almost more like, you know, I could have written that. I wish I'd written that. But, you know, she was like, I refuse to be afraid. It's the wizard who should be afraid. You know, we're seeing it so much now right in our world, like this really evil character, Morrible, who is so greedy for power, lustful for power, and that's really all she cares about, is, accuses this young woman who has nothing but decency and integrity in her heart, accuses her of being wicked. It's this constant projection that we're seeing right now all the time of people in power who are pointing at someone else who's done nothing wrong and saying, that's the evil one, that's the wicked one, that's the enemy, you know. And it's like a classic way of deflecting their own wickedness.

[34:38] William J Connolly: Is that also why, when Elphaba begins the flying portion of that moment, is that why it is spoken dialogue, that the final thing she says before she takes flight is, she accepts, it is me, and it's her rejection, and it's not her hiding, it's her going, you've got me. It's like, this is me, this is the real me, this is the truest me I can be. And being in that beautiful expression, to stand in one's truth, standing in my truth, when you stand in your truth, you can do anything. You can defy gravity, because you're standing, it's the most powerful kind of power, is to stand in your own truth and to be who you truly are, and to say, I will not accept your lies anymore. Those are lies. I mean, there's still, you know, in 2006, there's still such a thing as what's a lie and what's true.

I mean, I refuse to lie down and say, oh, you know, it's all kind of confusifying, and who knows what's true? Well, some things are true, and some things are a lie. Some people are wicked, and some people are not.

[35:58] Winnie Holzman: Is that also why your line of the best way to bring folks together is to give them a really good enemy is one of the most quoted lines from your show?

[36:03] Winnie Holzman: That's Stephen's line. He came up with that. And it's just, I think, I think you're right. I think he came up with it because it's for him. He just knew at that moment, like, this is just, this is just true. This is just something that people resort to. You know, we haven't invented it in our time, you know, in our, in our lives. This is in history. This has always happened. I think because of where the world is right now, I believe it is quoted a lot because it or just lands when you hear it in theater or on a movie screen, because we all know we're dealing with that now. And it really, you know, this is sad, but it works really well. You know, people fall for it.

[36:52] William J Connolly: One thing that I think is so beautiful about Wicked in London, and I was talking to your extraordinary collaborator, is about the way in which every generation seems to find a place for them and their family in Wicked. And there are people who, like myself, went to see Wicked 20 years ago that are going back with friends, family members, and the children of those people. And it feels like there's something for everybody, regardless of your age. I think I saw one comment once that said there were four generations in one photograph going and seeing your musical, which is insane.

[37:22] Winnie Holzman: I've seen those. You know, people have told us that, you know, they can remember going when they were a little girl with their mom, and now they're bringing their little girl and that kind of thing. Yeah.

[37:34] William J Connolly: And it's extraordinary to be able to be part of work that does appeal to so many different people, but also touches so many different people. And it's so interesting that it's done through this lens of wickedness, but actually it's the goodness in those people that does persevere. Do you think that's perhaps why so many people feel so inclined to make repeated visits, not only to see the show, but also, as we've seen so beautifully in London, so many people show up for different women that are playing the different parts as well?

[38:00] Winnie Holzman: Well, I do believe that theatre, you know, has become one of those places where we can have a spiritual experience, honestly, where we can feel at one with our fellows, with other people. You know, you can have a group experience that feels powerful, that feels uplifting. You know, like, let's face it, like there's so much ways in which we feel deadened and sort of alone, you know, alone with our phones or alone with our screens. I'm not saying that those things should be thrown away, but they can be very deadening and they can be very isolating. So when people can come to something that is absolutely going to, you know, and not in a fake way, sort of like everything's perfect, you know, it isn't like that.

But it's like saying, with all of the ways in which people do lie and twist the truth and also harm innocence, you know, do cruel things to people or animals that didn't deserve it. You know, we're still going to talk about the hopefulness of just what I was saying before, of two young women who decide to stand in their truth, to decide to stand up to those forces and to be who they were destined to be, which are leaders. And, you know, I don't think if you're really a leader, you necessarily, it's really always a happy experience, but you're fulfilling your destiny. You're fulfilling and you're reaching out to others in a way that is needed, you know. So I think when people are experiencing a story like that together, it gives them a hopeful feeling.

You know, a lot of times nowadays, you know, people don't go to church as much or, you know, maybe they do, but maybe they're not getting that kind of, you know, music. I left that out, but music is such a powerful way to talk about bringing people together. That'll bring people together and that'll make people come from their heart, their hearts open up, you know. And I try to do that with the comedy, too, in the show to sort of open people's hearts so that they can relax, so that they can let in the story, you know, so that the story can mean even more. People love to laugh together and they love to listen to music together. And also cry together. That's another one of my favorite things. Why do I do this?

Who wants to be all by themselves laughing and crying and listening to music? I mean, it happens and I've done it a lot, but, you know, it's really more wonderful in a group of, you know, and then, and, you know, if it's a big place like that gorgeous theater, you know, you realize these are all strangers, but we feel, I feel connected and that's a beautiful feeling. That's what we want in our world because really we are all connected.

[40:54] William J Connolly: Before I ask you my very final question, is there one particular line that you're still crazy, crazy proud of? Is there one thing that you think I'm so proud of myself for that one is the one that packs a real wicked punch for you. I'll tell you mine afterwards.

[41:07] Winnie Holzman: Well, I do like the line I quoted to you before where she, where he says, you know, it's not lying. It's looking at things another way, because I, what I love about that is that I like, I like the fact that he's using it in a personal moment, but that we in the audience, hopefully can realize, wait, this whole, this whole night has been about that, you know, about looking at things another way. This whole story is helping me to see that I don't have to be stuck looking at things only the way I was taught, you know, that I can open my mind to new ideas and new ways of new perspectives. Or you tell me your line.

[41:40] William J Connolly: Well, I always, I always like, it's not my favorite, but I always laugh at the, just a slight gulch, not to fret genius. I think that's so fantastic. So fantastic. And I do think sometimes that goes over people's heads and then you hear the people like two lines later, get it. And I'm like, there's the wizard of Oz fans. They've got it. But I think, I think the one that I always think like, oh, that's the, I like Glinda Upland of the Upper Uplands, because I think that's very clever play on words, but probably the, you think, you think I'm really stupid, don't you? Not really stupid, because it shows that she's also human and fun. And I think you forget that. I do. And I think it's gorgeous. I think it's lovely.

[42:15] Winnie Holzman: Thank you. Well, we did our best. That's for sure. We tried, we tried our hardest. 2006 doesn't feel actually that long ago, but it is this extraordinary and remarkable two decades, this 20th anniversary. If you think back to 2006 and the fact that you sat in that rather extraordinary theater with some of the amazing changes that feel so familiar to us now, but were about this rediscovery and the fact that Idina gave her blessing to London, she came over from her Tony winning performance and we got to see so many new people. What do you think the win sat in that theater on that first preview would think of the lady that sat with me now 20 years later with all the extraordinary ways in which this show has helped you and fed you and allowed you to feel a connection to audiences either directly or indirectly across a rather extraordinary time period? What would she think of the journey so far?

[43:09] Winnie Holzman: I'd just be in shock. I'd have to lie down. I really wasn't thinking ahead. And I wasn't thinking like all of this reaction, I didn't see it coming. Honestly, I was so busy, like trying to work hard and trying to do my best that I could and do, and do London proud and, and, and, and make sure that it was as good as it could be. I think I would have said, I think I would have needed a cocktail, honestly. And I'm not really a drinker.

[43:41] William J Connolly: Winnie, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so, so much for going through all of this. It really was a pleasure. You're delightful. Thank you so much.

[43:48] Winnie Holzman: Thank you. And most importantly, to quote a word I think you know very well, congratulations on such an extraordinary journey and so many years in London. Thank you for allowing it to stay with us for such a long time. And maybe I'll speak to you at 30 years?

[44:00] Winnie Holzman: Maybe. And can I just give my thanks and love to the entire cast and crew at the Apollo. I'm just so grateful to all of them. Thank you so much, all of you.

[44:11] William J Connolly: You've been listening to Eleven, the official theatre podcast. Find out more about Eleven at elevenpodcast.com or via the Broadway Podcast Network.