This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Gayle Keller: Hi, my name is Gayle Keller. I'm a casting director and I'm doing this podcast for Empowered Artist Collective.

[0:11] Jennifer Apple: Hello. Welcome to the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Apple, actor, coach, monologue whisperer, writer, dog mom, and creator of the Empowered Artist Framework. And I believe there's another way to build a creative, sustainable life in the arts that doesn't involve losing yourself. I'm so glad you're here. In this week's episode, I sat down with casting director Gayle Keller, who has spent nearly 30 years casting TV and film to get super specific about what she looks for when an actor walks into the literal or virtual room. We touch on Gayle's own non-linear path into casting, how seeing so many women building careers as casting directors helped her see a place for herself in the industry.

And then we dive into self-tapes, what makes an actor stand out, how casting directors discover new talent, and why doing great work matters even when you don't book the job. I especially love Gayle's reminder that while you're trying to get into a casting director's orbit, they're actively trying to find you too. This episode is powered by welcome to timesquare.com, the billboard where you can be a star for a day. Enjoy. Gayle Keller, welcome to the podcast.

[1:16] Gayle Keller: Thank you, Jennifer. Nice to be here. For anybody who does not know you, who are you today?

[1:21] Gayle Keller: Well, I'm a New York casting director, mostly doing TV and film. And I've been doing it for close to 30 years in New York City. Yeah, that's what I'm doing today.

[1:38] Jennifer Apple: You have had such an extensive career. For anybody who wants to hop onto IMDb, do it. The list just goes on and on and on and on. I mean, it's just like, I think over 70 projects are listed there, let alone probably all the stuff that is not even listed there. I mean, and it runs the gamut to some of my favorite things I've ever seen. And it's so very tone wise. And everything that you've done has just been like, it's wild and exciting. And I'm so grateful that you're here. I'm curious, what had you decide to go into casting to begin with?

[2:13] Gayle Keller: Yeah, you know, it wasn't anything I knew about growing up. I grew up in a small town in South Louisiana. I'd never been to New York City. I just knew New York City through movies and stuff like that. But I think the thing that actually made me want to move and live in New York was my love of movies. Because as a kid, my grandparents owned the only two movie theaters in my little town. So we got to go to the movies for free because, you know, it was my grandparents. And so we didn't have to pay when we went to the movies. So my mother would take the four kids and drop us off, you know, when it opened and pick us up hours and hours later.

[3:04] Gayle Keller: Wow. So we were watching a movie once. We were watching a movie four or five times a day. Wow. The same movie. So I think that's what kind of got me interested into seeing actors in different movies. And then I just started to sort of kind of click into these character actors. Like, I just thought that was so interesting that they were in this movie. And then you'd see them in this movie. And then you'd see them playing something else, you know. So it wasn't really the movie stars so much as it was like the character actors that I was fascinated with. And yeah, when I came to New York, I just was interested in working in film, you know, because I loved it so much. And I knew some people who did work on films, but more in the below the line, which is, you know, not on camera, but everybody behind the camera is called below the line.

And I was friends with an editor who worked on a lot of big films. And he said to me, I said, I want to do what you do. And he said, You don't want to do what I do. I sit in a dark room. It's a day. He goes, it's very lonely and dark. And, you know, he goes, you should do casting. And I said, Well, what's casting? And he told me, and I started to investigate because I lived in New York City and has, you know, which is a big playground for so many different arts. And I took a class, I audited a class that a casting director was teaching. And after the class, I went up to the casting director and I said, How can I get into this business? I'm really interested in doing this. And she recommended an internship for me at Warner Brothers at the time.

And I got the internship, which was, you know, wasn't paid or anything. But you know, I figured out with my job, how I could still do both and still make a living. And after I did the internship, I realized I loved it. And I just started putting my resume out there. And I was lucky enough to get a job with the casting director, worked with him for a couple of years. And then from there just went from different casting director to different casting director until I sort of got my own thing.

[5:20] Jennifer Apple: It's really incredible, because, you know, we've had many different casting directors over the various seasons that we've had. And I always like to hear how casting directors get into it, because there isn't the linear path, like so many of us actors, it's like, okay, you, you do it in, you know, middle school and high school and college, and there's like something and you see actors on a TV or you see them on a stage, like there's a visual representation for it. And so for me, it's always quite fascinating, how people even learn about it. And I feel now there's a little bit more of an understanding. And people there are some more opportunities of say, internships or shadowing and what have you.

But yeah, 30 years ago, there wasn't for sure. And so the fact that you're like, oh, I know to audit this, I know to ask, oh, here's an internship, I happen to get it. And like, I just, it's really quite incredible that you knew so deeply, and you just went for it. And here we are, right?

[6:14] Gayle Keller: That's what drives people, right? It's when you have that deep, that deep need to do something or want to do something. And it can be scary, because it's new, and it's unknown. But you know, I, you just got to jump in. And there are times when I did jump, and there were times when I didn't jump. But, but this time, I jumped. And I was, again, just really lucky. I think part of it is luck of who you run into, who will help you who will recommend something, you know? Yeah, I do feel like I was kind of fortunate in that in that way. And also, interesting enough, casting, which maybe you already know this, but really, most of the casting directors out there are women.

[7:00] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[7:00] Gayle Keller: You know, and, and so that felt like a career, that if it was, it was female forward, and I thought, Oh, well, I'm a female. Okay, I mean, I can be in this, in this career and grow and go from us an intern to an assistant to an associate to a casting director. And that's exactly what happened. And I and I do think that that was a big push for me, because I saw it as a field with a lot of women in it.

[7:35] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, to see that role model in front of you as a possibility for it. Yeah, very real thing. I'm curious for you when you're in it now, and maybe perhaps like looking back over the course of your career. Were there specific casting director women that you were like, Oh, I'm trying to emulate what it is that you do, because you've worked with them? Or was it just more the ecosystem of, Oh, I see them, they're all doing it, they're all really successful in what they do, I'm going to trust that I am also like them, and therefore going to find my own way?

[8:03] Gayle Keller: No, absolutely. Every person I worked with, or for, gave me something different. And interestingly enough, the first casting director that hired me was not a woman, was a man. And he, he was the one I think, his name is Todd Thaler. He was the one that really gave me the tools that I still use today. And just his approach to actors, the way that he would interact with actors, the way he would make them feel comfortable in an audition room, the way that he was very open to them, the way he treated them, you know, the way he talked to agents and managers on the phone, or producers or directors, or just like his kind of style was something I think that really resonated with me. And then from him, I was fortunate enough to work with really, really amazing women, like Ellen Lewis, Ellen Chenoweth, Avie Kaufman, Bonnie Finnegan, you know, like, so these people were the ones that kind of then shaped me after I left Todd.

So, so, you know, Todd was, was the one that sort of I started to emulate first, and then these other women just started giving me more tools. And, and in any, any job you do, right, you kind of hang on to what resonates with you the most. And you kind of leave the rest, right? It's like getting advice from someone, like someone can give you advice, and you go, well, I like that part of the advice, but that part's not really for me. So let me grab this little nugget. And then you take that with you to the next job. And then you take it to the next, because it's all a learning experience. Every time you work on a project, you're working with new people, maybe people you've never met before. It's the producers, the line producers, the directors, you know, the ADs, who are very important in TV and film, like the costumers, like all of these people are always different, or sometimes it's the same, but you learn from each job, like what you like about it, what you didn't like about it, what you would like to move forward, like next time you do a job, you don't want to do, you know, you don't want to work for someone that is kind of like that, maybe you want to work for someone that's more like this. So it's always a learning process, you always have to sort of like figure out what works for you to take to the next job, because it is a freelance, you know, career.

[10:36] Jennifer Apple: Correct. I think people often forget that, you know, because it's like, oh, but they're, they work on this thing for so long. It's like, but yeah, if they're not a network television show, and even then potentially, like you're not, you have to find the next thing over and over and over again.

[10:47] Gayle Keller: Exactly. Unless you work for a studio, and there are studio jobs, mostly in Los Angeles, that you can be a casting executive, you know, and be working for a studio. So whatever project they're doing, you've got your hands, like Netflix has their own casting department, you know, so in there are those positions, and those are salaried. And you know, you're working, you know, 20, you know, 12 months a year with vacations or time off. But that's a little bit different than it's a lot different than being a freelancer.

[11:24] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. Well, I'm curious, you named tools, when you're working, and obviously, it probably depends on the project, the needs of the project, the team that you're working with. Are there specific tools or ways of working that you do consistently, no matter what the project is that you're like, this is I know, my style, perhaps of being a casting director, that is just like your through line of how you work? Or is it every single project is different. And because I have my toolbox of what I know I like, or what I has worked for me in the past, I'm going to kind of pick which tools I use to work on said project, depending on what that project is.

[12:00] Gayle Keller: I feel like the tools are really the same for almost every project. It's not that different. I mean, the the union rule, I mean, you know, the SAG after rules are different for TV as they are for film. So that's something you have to kind of learn. But in terms of how I approach a script, or how I'll work with a director, those aren't that different. I mean, the casting directors are so, so linked to actors in their careers. And actors, I don't know, always realize how much alike we are. Because we are, you know, freelancers, go to project to project. We, you know, you know, the directors are the most important sort of person you're working with. And if you work with a director, sometimes they'll want to cast you again, I know a lot of directors that like using some of the same actors.

Yeah. You know, so that and that's the same with the casting director. Like if you work with a director, they're more than if it's a good experience, they're going to want to have you come back and do another project that they do. And that's something that I've been fortunate with a lot of the directors I work with. But also, just like actors, you can get typecast. And casting directors can get typecast as well. So even though I started in dramatic series, like I did a, you know, did one of the law and orders for many years. I did a TV series called Louis, that was a comedy. That was a really big hit. And then after that, all I got was comedies.

[13:34] Gayle Keller: Yeah, I mean, you've done some incredible comedies, like the bros. I mean, chair company's dark, but like weird comedy, big mistakes I'd put into comedy. I mean, like, yeah, at home with Amy Sedaris, like you've done some really like heavy hitter, niche comedy stuff specifically.

[13:51] Gayle Keller: Yeah. So what would you say are some of the tools that you find consistent throughout the work that you do? Or the way you approach the material?

[14:01] Gayle Keller: You have to be organized. You have to have your, you know, you just have to be organized because there's so much information coming at you so quickly, especially when a project first starts. And television, I would say is a little is harder.

[14:19] Gayle Keller: Most of the times because it's so constant for such a long period of time. So if you're on a series, if you're working on episode one and you get it cast, then you have to go right into episode two, you know? And you may be closing deals for episode one while you're starting episode two. So like the clock is ticking as soon as you start a TV series. I sort of liken it to a hamster on a hamster wheel. Once you get on that wheel, you really can't get off the wheel until the show ends. Yeah, right? A film is different because a film is a little bit more leisurely. Like you'll have more time to do one thing, and so the focus can really be on everything about that film, every character in that movie.

It's such a specific thing for the director or the writer, and it's just all contained in that one thing, right? So I'm not gonna get another script for the movie, you know? I'm just gonna keep working on this script. But with TV, you're getting a new script every eight days or whatever, and now it's a whole bunch of characters. You have to read it. You don't even know where the story is going necessarily, you know, in television. So it's like kind of a surprise, like, oh gosh, you know? They may give you a heads up. Sometimes the writers may give you a heads up saying, well, there's a big character coming, you know, and sneak you some of that so you can get started on it because the timing is limited on a TV series. Like you only have a certain amount of time to get this episode cast.

[15:56] Gayle Keller: Yeah. Yeah, and so are you taking whatever you learn from said episode? You are creating breakdowns, releasing them, going through the back end of it, choosing the, you know, who's gonna get an appointment, setting the appointments like that? You're talking about in terms of organization, correct?

[16:09] Gayle Keller: Yeah. Yeah, and that's got to be quick. It's got to be fast. You've got to bring in as many actors as you think are right for that part as quickly as you can because you don't have that much time. And then you're also trying to meet new actors that you don't know, you know? So the organization of it and also just knowing actors, you know, when I did television primarily before I got into films, I had a database that someone created for me specifically, and I would use that database to go in and go, I'm looking for some, you know, I'm looking for a female African-American in their 50s. Boom, you know, that are based in New York because the production doesn't want to bring anybody in from outside of New York.

Or they're like, they'll bring in someone from wherever, you know? So now I'm looking in California and Toronto and, you know, Chicago and, you know, everywhere, Atlanta. So those kind of things change a little bit depending on the TV series, you know? Like some TV series have a bigger budget; they can bring people in from out of town, even from Europe if they have enough time. And some TV series, like "The Chair Company," which is a smaller budgeted comedy, then they really like want to focus on New York, you know, because of budget reasons. So those, you know, those are some stipulations, but you kind of start to figure out how to work within those confinements, right?

[17:49] Gayle Keller: Like what is that? Is the TV series? Like how much how willing are they to look outside of New York, which kind of will change just the time frame of how much time you have? And then it's just my, you know, my knowledge. It's who I know, who I like, who I've seen, who I've auditioned before, who I've cast before, who I've seen in a play or a musical, and I want to try them. I think they'd be so right for something. So like the big advantage to me of being a New York casting director is the theater. Yeah, theater to me is everything. It's the reason to be in New York, one of the reasons, one of the reasons to be in New York City because I love theater. I'm a total nerd. I'll go see anything, you know what I mean?

Uptown, downtown, you know, off-off, you know, comedy, whatnot, comedy, musical, not musical, you know, just a fan. So yeah, theater excites me. It's something I love to do. So it's easy for me to go to the theater when people want to invite me or, you know, an actor tells me about a show that they're in, like, ooh, I have time. I'll go see that. You know, that's interesting. That looks fun. I know that playwright. Oh, I know that director's work. Oh, I love that actor. So let me go see what they're doing now, you know? And that's the thing about New York; you should really start to learn the pool of actors, and you learn more actors every time you go to see a show.

[19:16] Jennifer Apple: I am curious for you with, you know, the post-COVID self-tape land. Has that changed the way you are meeting folks besides just the classic way of seeing them in a show? Is it more because of the accessibility of self-tapes? You are able to have access to different actors you've ever seen before? Has it changed at all really in terms of the pool, or is it really just more the way we are facilitating the audition process?

[19:46] Gayle Keller: Well, I do think it's changed the pool a little bit. But you know, even before COVID, we had self-tapes. Yeah, you know, it wasn't like it's something we hadn't been using as a tool. But COVID, it just became like so many more self-tapes were coming in, and I was learning a lot more actors, and I was able to see a lot more auditions because of the self-tapes. So when you have in-person auditions, it's just you have less time, right? You know, because like I can look at self-tapes before I start my day. I can wake up in the morning with my coffee, you know, and whatever and spend an hour looking at self-tapes. Yeah, when the day's over, you know, when everything gets wrapped up at the end of the evening, you know, I can still, you know, have my life and then, you know, have an hour or two to look at self-tapes again, you know? And when you have in-person auditions, you know, during a day, I would have like maybe four hours, like maybe two hours in the morning, two hours in the afternoon where I would have live auditions.

[21:01] Gayle Keller: Yeah, but that's the only time I could really give because then I'm also having to talk to agents and talk to producers and, you know, look at submissions and, you know, take calls from agents pushing their people or, you know, just dealing with the logistics of a movie or a TV series, you know? There's just a lot of paperwork constantly, yeah, that we're having to do. So I think it has allowed me to see and know more actors in a shorter amount of time, especially for television, yeah, with the self-tapes. But I also always offered Zoom auditions even at the very beginning when we, you know, because we went back in, I think it was September 2020 was when I went back to a project I was working on. And so, you know, I always said to any audition that we would put out, we're offering a Zoom or a self-tape.

[22:01] Gayle Keller: Amazing, and it was funny in the very beginning; everybody self-taped. And then slowly people started wanting to do Zoom auditions. Yeah, because you want to have that human interaction. You want to be able to be like, yeah, it started to flip. I've started to flip. Yeah, and also actors then, actress would tell me, I love the self-tapes. I love the self-tapes, or some actors would tell me, I love the Zoom auditions. Yeah, that's the closest thing, you know? So it was kind of a personal thing too for actors. Like some actors really love self-tapes. They get into it; they set up the seat, you know, and I mean whatever. But there are actors who didn't like it at all, and they wanted the Zoom. So I started to see that more people were wanting to do Zoom, and then I would say in the last two years, we started to do more in-person.

[23:07] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, what do you find in self-tape land? And I know it's always just kind of like a moving target depending on the season that we're in, depending on technology, depending on all the things. But for you, what would you deem, and I put this in like large quotations, a successful self-tape? As in what for you resonates when you are watching this self-tape besides, you know, I can see you and I can hear you? Like is there something specific, you know, that you're looking for, or is it more just like we really just want to see your version and interpretation of whatever is on the page?

[23:35] Gayle Keller: Um, well, you know, I don't exactly always know exactly what I'm looking for. Sometimes you kind of just got to see it, you know? I'm not—seeing and hearing is the biggest thing. That's hands-down the biggest thing, right? As if I can see you and hear you. If I can't hear you, I'm not gonna watch your tape. If I can't see you, it's gonna be really hard to watch your tape. But I'll just go back to the rep or whatever and say, can they redo it? We can't see them; they need better audio, you know? So it's a little annoying, but it happens, you know? It's like everybody has to deal with what they have, you know? I don't want to penalize anyone for, you know, not getting all of this equipment to make sure that they can be seen and heard, but that is kind of basic.

Like you don't have to buy a ring light; you can just be close to a window that has sunlight facing you in the face, not behind you. Then just we just have to make sure when you look at the, you know, look at it, you go, oh, I can see myself. Then if you can see yourself, then I'll be able to see you.

[24:23] Gayle Keller: Yeah, and in terms of the actual work, well, I do—I know that the actors just have to—the actors, it's really their own instincts, you know? It's like they should be trying to be true to themselves. I, you know, not push, especially for TV and film. I don't think that it's, you know, the bigger, the bigger they are, maybe not always the best. Like find a way to internalize those things that so maybe it's a little bit small because, you know, when you look—when you watch a TV series or you watch a movie, I mean, a film in a theater is a different experience. But we are watching things on our computers, and they are small screens.

[25:12] Gayle Keller: Yeah. And so your reactions to things when a small screen is so much more amplified than it is, you know, in a play, for example. So I think you have to be able to, you know, sort of adjust maybe how big something is, a reaction to something. Because the truthfulness of what you're doing is going to come through if you're being true to the text. That's my feeling. Even if it's not the right choice, if I see something in someone's audition to me that rings true, real, honest, those things mean more to me than the fact that you, you know, got a nurse's outfit to play the nurse. I don't really care about that. I'm trying to watch what you're doing. I'm trying to watch your choices, your, you know, your emotional—the inside of your emotional life because it all comes through the eyes.

You know, so much in film and TV is really people's reactions. That's what acting is. It's reacting, and so the more truthful, honest, real these reactions are, no matter if they're comedic or emotional or whatever they are, I'm gonna connect to that in some way. And like I said, they might not be right for the part, but I will certainly think of them for maybe something else and put them in my little pile to go, you know, I like this person. Yeah, let's find something for them. Let's try them again on another project, or maybe I'm working on another project that they're more right for, you know? And then I'll put them in that pile. So an audition with a casting director, you're always trying to get the part, but you also want to get another audition.

[27:01] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. Yeah, I always say it's about booking the room. Like you want to book the room, and in this case, it's metaphorical, you know, virtual room. But yeah, if you book the room, then you are building those relationships. You're building that potential network for down the line. I can't, you know, if I look back to my career, and so many of the things that I book however many years later were because of a relationship that I had with a casting director that I started the beginning of my career over like a decade ago, you know? It's like, oh, they've called me in at various times. I've been like, oh, what have I done wrong? It's like, no, no, this person likes you. They keep bringing you in. Really, they're not bringing you in to waste anybody's time. They're bringing you in because they see something in you, and they keep trying, and for whatever reason, this isn't the alchemy, and at some point it will work.

[27:49] Gayle Keller: But for me, yeah, whenever there's a casting director's name that I see and have seen over the time, even if it takes some time between the times, I'm like, oh right. Okay, the last time I did good work. Right? They remembered something.

[28:00] Gayle Keller: Yeah, no, I mean that's—and that's the other thing. If I see you in a play, let's see, you've just graduated from college or you've just moved to New York City. You've got some off-Broadway show, you know, a little theater, you know? It doesn't even have to be, you know, Atlantic or wherever it is or one of these even smaller theaters like, you know, Clubbed Thumb or The Flea or whatever it is. And there's something that sparks for me with your performance, I—you will probably be coming into my office for the rest of...

[28:38] Gayle Keller: For the next 20 years, you know what I mean? It's like that's what it takes for me a lot of times, of course not every, you know, I also bring people in based on other things in theater because there's so many LA actors that maybe I don't get to see them do theater. But if I see them in a TV series or have auditioned them and I think they're really great, then I also remember them. But the theater is, to me, if you can touch me in a dark theater, you know, I'm in the back row and you're on stage and I feel something, you make me laugh, you make me cry. That power to me is a power that can be translated to TV and film. But it's also just like a beautiful reminder, as you were saying earlier, of just like the casting director is an advocate for an actor, but be like we swim in the same pool.

Like us coming in and doing good work A makes you look good, but also B fits potentially the puzzle piece that you're missing and then solves your problem to like cast the episode. Hey, like we're all working together for the same goal and remembering you could be a casting director. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

[29:52] Jennifer Apple: Well, I'm curious for you if you have a memorable audition experience, whether it's in person or virtual or self-tape or zoom that was memorable for, I would say like a positive thing and then memorable for what would have been like, whoa, maybe on like the oh God scale of things. Do you have like a flip sides for both?

[30:18] Gayle Keller: Right, right. Well, I'm gonna go to the memorable for not a good reason first. Great. And I'm not gonna name names or anything, but yeah, I do remember when I was working on Law & Order: Criminal Intent? An actor coming in for like I met them first, you know, in a general and then or a prescreen, whatever you want to call it, and then I brought them in for the director. And it was in a director's session, so, you know, director and writer and producers were all there. And this actor came in and the scene called for the actor to smoke a cigarette. Oh my God, and they literally took a cigarette out, lit it, and started to smoke it in the audition. And I was just like, oh, they didn't do it when I, you know, was reading the scene with them initially.

I thought, oh my, what are you doing? You know, like what? Yeah, first of all, you know, it's illegal to have a cigarette in the building, you know, like no, there's no smoking in the building. And all of a sudden there they are and we're all in a closed room and this person's smoking a cigarette. Like where are you gonna put it out? Like there was, it was, what did they do? How did they put it out? I don't remember. I think I was just so flabbergasted that I just, I was just shocked.

[31:44] Gayle Keller: And then there was another incident, oh God, I feel really bad for this actor because I don't really think it was their fault necessarily, but it was again, it was for a TV series and, you know, we were a bit behind so actors were really having to wait a long time and it was very hot. I remember the building we were in for some reason we had lost electricity, so it was like really hot in the waiting room. And this actor came in, he did the scene, I have to say it wasn't that good. Only, you know, he left and we were like, thank you very much. And then I took in another actor, whatever, and he like waited, he just stayed until the end of the session. He's like, can I go back in and try again?

It's like, oh, you know, let me ask the team and they said, well, I'm sure you can come back in. He wanted to do the scene again, right? And I thought, well, we'll give him another shot, right? He came back in, I don't know if it was because of the heat, because he was nervous, I don't know what it was, but like he started this scene and then he passed out.

[33:00] Gayle Keller: So everyone jumps to it, we're getting him water, you know, he came to pretty quickly. He was a young guy, so it wasn't even that we were worried because he was an older person. But, you know, I think it was maybe he got dehydrated or he wasn't drinking water or he was so nervous or whatever. And I just felt really bad for him. But I'm just thinking to myself, if you're gonna come back into a room to ask you seen again, you know, it's not to be passed out, right? I'm seeing you on the ground instead of yourself in a way that, but whatever, that was really, wow. Well, I felt awful for the guy, of course he didn't get the part. But yeah, I'll never forget that, you know, that moment of him just going down and wow.

[34:00] Jennifer Apple: Oh my God. This is, I mean, that is an insane, insane story. I am curious though for the ask though that he made of that. Do you, when it when and if actors for you in a session ask to either start again or try a scene differently when they have not been asked to do that, how does that resonate for you?

[34:18] Gayle Keller: It is a little bit, uh, it's a little awkward. I mean, I'm fine with someone who has starts a scene and then they go, they stop it and go, can I just start again? Like that to me is absolutely no problem and I don't think anybody would fault someone for that. It's when you do the whole scene and even before you get feedback from the director or whatever, you're at, you're like, can I do it again? And yeah, I think you really should wait for maybe the director to ask you to do it again if you want to do it. And if you do do it again, then really we want to see something really different. Yeah, so many times when it's happened to me about an actor asking to do it again, they do it either the same way or worse and it just, it just is, I think you've really, really got to have something very specific you want to try that you didn't try.

Yeah, you can't just do the same thing or, you know, it's, it, that doesn't necessarily help your case, I don't think. And I don't, I don't think I've ever had an actor who's done that in a room said, can I do it again? Never get the part.

[35:27] Jennifer Apple: Hmm. Yeah, you know, interesting, but starting and then asking to start again, that's not a problem. That happens all the time and I, oh, I so understand it because the nerves, you know, sure, like you can get a false start and it can just like ruin the whole thing.

[35:48] Gayle Keller: Yeah, so there's kind of a funny story. Someone told me in a Shakespearean play, I think it's Twelfth Night, the curtain opens and the first line is, if music be the food of life, play on. Okay, the curtain comes up and the guy said, if food.

[36:11] Gayle Keller: I live for that. I live for those moments and maybe that's the actor in me or the human frankly in me. Oh, poor thing. I know that feeling so well, right? So well, yeah, if food, you're like, I know I'm in the land, the land is, is right, but the land is not, that's not the actual land, right?

[36:34] Jennifer Apple: Right. Oh, poor thing, right?

[36:41] Gayle Keller: What about for a say a more positive audition experience or one that has like really resonated with you?

[36:50] Gayle Keller: Well, I think sometimes I think those positive things are when I made an actor for the first time and they're so good, I just look at them and just go, who are you? Like, where have you been? You know, like you kind of know immediately. I don't know what it is, maybe it's an instinct, it's just your gut. You just like they come in and they're just, my God, they're just perfect. Well, I know perfect's not the right word, they're just so right for the part. Yeah, like the first time I ever auditioned John Kaczynski, like wow.

[37:35] Gayle Keller: Hmm. Or Adam Driver, you're just like, whoa. Is it the choices that they're making or is it just that they understand the material in them in a way that they're able to reflect? It's both and I think it's a level of confidence that is, they're so assured of what they're doing that it just comes through that they know, they know what they're doing. Yeah, and you know, there's no hesitation. They're just so solid and confident without being obnoxious or anything, you know, it's just a level of confidence and assuredness and you're just like, whoa, yeah, you know, if you just get that this kind of whoa moment and you kind of know it and then you just hope the director sees it and when they see it, you're like, okay, I know, I know that it's right then because if the director can see it, you know.

[38:24] Gayle Keller: When I was working on this movie with for this director Kelly Reichardt, I did this film called First Cow and the lead role of this guy Cookie was the character's name and it was a period piece, it was set in the 1800s in the Northwest. And we saw, we know we were so, the list was so long of the actors they were considering for the part, famous people, unknown people, you know, we're just the gamut and we were just, the search was huge. And I had, I knew this actor John McGarrow and I had seen him recently in a play at the public and I was just kind of so impressed with his work at the public. I had cast him in a TV series actually, he was very young when I first cast him, but I had recently seen him again at the public theater in a play and I was like, oh God, so good.

So I thought of him for this movie and I sent some material on him, like I think it was a short story that he had done with this actor and they had filmed it like just a short, like a short film. And I sent that to the director and she was like, this is it, he's it, like I see it, he's it, you know, and he was so perfect in the part, you know, he and he was amazing. He was great. So, you know, it's those moments. I mean, they also came from a history of me knowing the actor's work, but then just seeing him recently in a piece of theater and it reminded me of how good I thought he was and maybe I hadn't for a while, you know, he's a little older and stuff. So it's like, oh my God, I forgot about John, you know, yeah, he's like, yeah, and you know, and then, yeah, I mean, it really helped his career too.

You know, he did Past Lives, you know, right after that, he's done so many other films since then and I think that it really kind of helped his career in a way because now and he's also worked with this director on three movies. So amazing.

[40:40] Gayle Keller: You know, yeah, but I know who Cookie was, I was trying to find Cookie, you know, and you did and you did, you were like, this is, this is, and I did, you know, and like she was looking at people like Josh O'Connell, she was looking at, you know, she was looking at some really big name people and she didn't cast Josh in that movie, but she cast him in her net and her and a film like three films later, clearly. So she also remembered Josh, you know, so like you kind of remember, especially when you work with directors over and over again, there is sort of a shorthand that comes with it because you know, there you start to really understand their taste and then it's a shorthand of who you know, who they're gonna like and they're not gonna like.

[41:39] Gayle Keller: Yeah, and it's different for different directors. You know, like I work with Judd Apatow a lot and I know comedy is so important to him. Oh, an actor's really got to have a really good sense of comic timing or a sense of humor or something, you know what I mean? Because and be able to improv. So comedy also has this like added thing that maybe dramatic film might not or a dramatic TV show might not. It's looser, it's more like, hey, let's find the essence of the person. Are they able to improv? Are they able to listen? Because so much of it is listening to what someone else is telling you and not just being in your head. And when you do comedy, because it, and especially when you do improv, you have to be so right there.

You can't, your head can't be somewhere else trying to come up with a good idea. You have to be reacting off of what someone's giving you. That's what improv is and the same with the stand-up comedian. They're testing their material over and over and over and over and over again to know where the laughs are, to know what's funny. A musician is the same way, you know, a musician has to hit the right note, has to play the right note, has to hit the right, you know, in a song when they sing, they have to, it's very precise. And so you're bringing that precision and that's why I think a lot of musicians do make good actors if they choose to go.

[43:57] Dr. Gayle Keller: We do give instructions in that way. Or we'll say, you know, the director doesn't really want improv. So if you can just stick to the script, you know, but you can do it more than once. You know, you can we'd like to see two takes, try something different in each take or something like that. And then when you're in the actual room, if you do get a callback, and you're like, in person with a director on Zoom with the director, then the director will tell you what they are looking for. You know, I'm just trying to do what the director wants. You know, I'm not it's not my choices. It's the director's choice of how they want the scenes done. So I'm really the facilitator. I'm trying to help the actor.

This is what the director wants. So let's do it like what the director wants. Right? Yeah. You know, they're the director for sure. They're the ones that are going to hire you. I'm not going to be hiring you. It's going to be them. I might advocate for you. You know, if a director says, Well, who do you like out of this person, this person, you know, as far as the invitations to coming to say a show that I've been in or to upkeep with like, Oh, I booked this thing. And I want you know, like tune in, what have you found to be a helpful way to inform you of stuff or for actors to continue to keep you in the loop.

[45:19] Dr. Gayle Keller: And I guess the counter to that is, let's say, you don't know my work, and I really love the things that you cast, and I want to be seen for things that you cast, like, what is the way that you respond to folks, meeting you finding you like having them, have you know them, like, I guess the world of like correspondence. I know, because it used to be, you know, they could drop off a headshot at your office. We don't really have that so much anymore. But yeah, and everybody's a little bit different. Which is why I ask it every time to every casting director, because I think it's helpful to be reminded that not everybody does things the same. And we all have different desires and needs for this. So yeah, for you.

[46:07] Dr. Gayle Keller: Exactly, exactly. And whatever they, you know, there's no right or wrong, either. You know, it's just preferences and stuff. Well, you know, if you're, you know, you're submitted by an agent or a manager, that's one way I get to know you if I think you're right for it. If I see you in a show, you know, then I may reach out to the agent or manager and say, I saw your client in a show, and I'm really like them and would love to bring them in for this. Or if you don't have that, I'll try and find you either on IMDB or Actors Access and call you in for an audition if I've seen you in a show. And then if you're in a show, I don't mind, and we've met before and we kind of know each other, you know, then I don't mind giving you my email and say, Hey, if you're in a something else, let me know what you're doing.

It's hard for me if I get cold emails from actors that I don't know their work. They want to tell me they just did this show or they just did this and I don't know them. I probably won't follow up on that because I'm more focused on people that I know, I've met and I'm more likely to go and see that show, you know, because I already know them. And but when I get emails and people go, Oh, I was just in this TV series and check me out. I go, Okay, I might or might not. Maybe if I like the series, I'll try and remember them when I watch it and stuff. But that's really hard for me because there's so much TV that I don't watch. Yeah, I mean, I do watch tell you know, of course I watch television.

But you know, my taste. It's like what my why watch what I what I like, right? So I'm not watching a lot of sitcoms or not watching a lot of network TV necessarily. I will go and watch the series that I like wherever they are Hulu or Netflix or, you know, HBO, you know, I'll make sure I check out those series. Yeah, because I just like the series. Yeah. And the theater, I just tend to just see shows that I'm interested in. If it's the like I said, it's the director or or the playwrights or the actors, you know, who are in it. Yeah.

[48:29] Dr. Gayle Keller: Let's say you are unrepresented. And you are not currently in something. What are the best ways to potentially come into your orbit? Is it you know, taking some sort of class? Is it being patient? And hoping that the tides turn? So Actors Access is a source if you're unrepresented to put to put yourself on Actors Access, because I know most a lot of casting directors check that out, especially who are working in TV, or if they're looking for very specific things, maybe, if it's, you know, required that the role has to be, you know, somebody who's an amputee or somebody who speaks, you know, two different languages, I don't know, whatever it is, you know, sometimes Actors Access can can find that help you find that.

That Playbill.com will list what casting directors are working on, or what shooting in New York, or, you know, I think they may also list. I don't know if they list agents and managers, but I think there's something called Backstage resources that will list, you know, ways to get in touch with agents or managers. And also, there's something called a New York castings talent directory, that will also maybe give you access to like what casting directors are doing, or what office different casting offices are working on, you know, for across the board, if it's theater, film or TV. And, and that's a way to also find out what they're doing. And maybe, you know, send, get an email and send over your resume and stuff like that.

I know that the opportunities to be to get into something that's not a TV series or film is theater. Like you could, as a director, as an actor, like if you're like, ah, I'm not getting any TV calls, or I'm not getting calls for film. You can do theater, you know what I mean? And people go to the theater, and people will see you in the theater and word of mouth sometimes, oh, my God, this plays a big hit. All of a sudden, you know, it's just like what happened to Titanic. That was a show that started, you know, this little theater downtown, and it ran for a long time started in LA, and then it came to New York, and it had a really long run and a life before it made it to Broadway. I saw it twice when it was off Broadway, you know, like, so those are the types of, and now I know, I used so many different casts in that show, because I saw it more than once, you know, so that kind of stuff is where, you know, you can be seen and you can get representation, you can get, you know, you can get casting directors to see you, to call you, even directors, you know, sometimes I'll get an email or call from a director, oh, I just saw so and so in this play, can you bring them in for this?

You know, so we're all trying to find the actors. I mean, people think that, you know, that we're not trying to find you, we're trying to find you too, you know, as you're trying to find us, we're kind of doing it at the same time. But not every casting office wants you to send an email every time you're in something or an email every time you book something, you know, but I think if you have a relationship with that casting office, and you are in a play that you're really proud of your work, reach out to them, let them know, because there is a lot of, I mean, there's so much to do in New York City, we do can get overwhelmed and not have time to do everything we want to do. Yeah, but you know, you may go, you may send out this email saying I'm in the show and the casting director may go, gosh, I was supposed to do this tonight not got canceled.

I think I'm gonna go see that. Yeah, you just never know. And you never know who's in the audience. Right? You know, I mean, the first time I ever saw Timothee Chalamet was in a play. And I mean, he might have gotten his first movie based on the work he did in his play. I don't know. But you know, he was the lead of the play. And he was amazing. And you kind of knew it when you watched it. You're like, Oh, my God, who is this kid? Yeah, 16, 17, or whatever he was. So I'm sure a director or casting director or producer saw that play and thought, he's gonna be great for this and then bring him in. So that's kind of how that happens sometimes too. Right? You don't know what plays are going to be a hit. You don't know what hot ticket is going to it's going to become. And everyone also who again is in the audience. Like I think that that is a really beautiful you never know.

[53:12] Dr. Gayle Keller: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I go to improv shows like I saw this. I saw I've seen a couple of people in improv shows that hadn't done any TV and film and cast them in things. You know, in fact, the woman in the chair company who plays Tim Robinson's assistant glowed television. She I saw her do improv. Amazing. And that was I was like, I helped her get you know, I might have recommended her to her agent. I can't remember if she was with a manager or something. But sometimes these agents or managers reach out to me and they go, What do you think of this person? Yeah, do you like them? Because I'm thinking of signing them. And I'm like, I love them. I love it.

[54:06] Jennifer Apple: Well, on that note, if anybody is interested in learning more about your career in wanting to hire you as a casting director for a project or interested in reaching out to follow up about something they heard, is there what is the best place for people to find you to reach out if you so desire and within your own boundaries?

[54:21] Dr. Gayle Keller: Yes, I mean, I'm not very savvy when it comes to social media. So I don't have any platforms on social media. I only have my email, you know, I do I am represented by a manager that if you go on IMDB, my manager is listed there. And you can always contact my manager about a project or if, you know, I don't know if actors should contact my manager about everything they do. But, you know, I think I think that's really, I don't have I don't have a I don't have a source to give out to everyone to say, Hey, you know, email me here or, you know, follow me here because I don't do any of that stuff, unfortunately. But I do go to the theater. I do do that. And I do watch a lot of TV. And I watch a lot of movies.

And yeah, I do find talent that I really love. And sometimes actors recommend actors to me, too. You know, so if you have an if you have a friend who's represented or something or has worked with me before, you're like, Oh, would you mind could, you know, and that I always don't mind or sometimes an agent or a manager say, Oh, so and so wants to, yeah, to reach out to you. I'm like, Yeah, you can give him my email, you know, that kind of thing.

[55:52] Jennifer Apple: Amazing. Well, thank you so, so much for joining in this space and for sharing so openly and it for me, it's just very important to be able to share with folks the various different perspectives within the same quote, label. And so I really appreciate you lending your experience and vision to this conversation. And I'm just I love the work that you do. So thank you. And thank you for being in this space.

[56:15] Dr. Gayle Keller: You're so welcome, Jennifer. It was great. I really enjoyed it.

[56:20] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. I hope this episode empowered you to take one small step forward. Make sure you're subscribed to never miss out. And while you're at it, kindly leave us a review. It's one of the best ways to help other artists find the podcast and join in on the conversations. Be sure to tag @empoweredartistscollective and @jenniferapple_ so we can see what's landing for you and keep the conversation going. As always, thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. And thank you for being a part of this incredible community. Remember, whether it's a small shift or a big breakthrough, every step forward counts. Keep creating and keep thriving. I'm Jennifer Apple. Until next time.