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[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky. How Sondheim and Lapine went into the woods with me, Ben Rimalower. Today's guest, Patti LuPone, Broadway Legend slash Rejected Cinderella. Once upon a time, Patti LuPone recently won her third Tony Award for playing Joanne in Marianne Elliott's revelatory revival of Stephen Sondheim and George Firth's a role she also played on London's West End, for which she won her second Olivier Award. She won her second Tony Award playing Rose in the 2008 revival of Gypsy, directed by Arthur Lawrence, and was also nominated for her lauded turn as Mrs. Lovett in John Doyle's 2005 revival of Sweeney Todd. Her association with Stephen Sondheim also extends to the New York Philharmonic Productions of Sweeney Todd and Company and the Lincoln Center Presentation of Passion, all of which were broadcast on PBS, as well as Ravinia Festival concerts, including A Little Night Music, Anyone Can Whistle, and Sunday in the Park with George, and numerous tribute evenings.

Patti won her first Tony for Evita and has racked up a total of eight nominations across 40 years commandeering the Broadway stage in both musicals and plays, including War Paint, The Anarchist, Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown, Noises Off, The Old Neighborhood, Masterclass, Anything Goes, The Accidental Death of an Anarchist, Oliver, Working, The Water Engine slash Mr. Happiness, and in repertory for The Acting Company, The Three Sisters, The Time of Your Life, Edward II, The Robber Bridegroom, Next Time I'll Sing to You, Skapin, Measure for Measure, and The Beggar's Opera, as well as the upcoming The Roommate, opposite Mia Farrow. Her other West End credits include Masterclass, The Cradle Will Rock, and creating the roles of Norma Desmond in Sunset Boulevard and Fantine in Les Miserables.

She also starred in Candide with the New York Philharmonic and in Can Can and Pal Joey for City Center Encores. Her theatrical concerts, A Life in Notes, Don't Monkey with Broadway, Faraway Places, The Lady with the Torch, Coulda Woulda Shoulda, Matters of the Heart, and Patti LuPone on Broadway, as well as an evening with Patti LuPone and Mandy Patinkin, have played Broadway, Carnegie Hall, and some of the finest venues around the world. She has crossed over into the world of opera for Regina, The Rise and Fall of the City of Mahogany, The Ghosts of Versailles, and To Hell and Back, and starred in The Seven Deadly Sins for the New York City Ballet. On film, Patti has been seen most memorably in Bo is Afraid, The Comedian, Union Square, Parker, City by the Sea, Heist, State and Main, Summer of Sam, The 24-Hour Woman, Family Prayers, Driving Miss Daisy, Witness, and Fighting Back.

She has been nominated for two Emmys, and her television series credits include the upcoming WandaVision spinoff, Agatha, as well as American Horror Story, Steven Universe, Vampirina, Penny Dreadful, Pose, Army Wives, Oz, and Life Goes On, in addition to playing herself on Girls, Glee, and Will & Grace, and starring in the TV movies Monday Night Mayhem, Her Last Chance, The Song Spinner, and the Peabody-winning LBJ, The Early Years. She has two Grammys and has recorded seven solo albums, in addition to cast recordings for all the musicals she starred in. She is the author of the New York Times bestseller, Patti LuPone, A Memoir.

[3:20] Ben Rimalower: Thank you so much for talking to me, Patti. I, like most Broadway fans and certainly Sondheim fans, you know, consider you for the last 30 years, maybe since you sang Being Alive at Carnegie Hall, or certainly since you played Mrs. Lovett in the first of your several Sweeney Todd's with the New York Philharmonic, you were inextricably linked with the history of Stephen Sondheim. But there's also a legend around your sort of brush, the almost, you know, that never was of you in Into the Woods, and I wanted to get that story from you. And then also maybe if we could just set the context going back, a little bit of like the Sondheim history of Patti LuPone. I know that you played Louise in Gypsy in high school. And, you know, I don't, when you were at Juilliard, did you go see Company and Follies? What was your even awareness of Sondheim in the early years?

[4:24] Patti LuPone: Minimal, you know, because I was training to be a classical actor, so musicals were nowhere in my mindset. It's just Jacobean, Elizabethan restoration plays. So I did not go see Company. I knew it was on. I knew it was a success. I knew it was a Sondheim piece. And I didn't, I was sort of like, yeah, well, I'm busy because I'm working 13 hours a day at Juilliard, six days a week. So I didn't see that. I didn't see Follies. I didn't see anything. I didn't, you know, we used to second act plays, but I don't even remember if I second acted anything in Juilliard because it was a really grueling training. And it was just all about that. It was all about the training. So I don't, I didn't think, I mean, I fell out of love with musicals once I started training at Juilliard, studying acting at Juilliard.

I just fell out of love with musicals and classical theater. I met Steve, I can't remember when I met Steve, but I'm sure I met Steve at some point during Evita because he was such good friends with Hal Prince. But Evita was, I was in a totally different head all through Evita because it was the hardest role I'd ever played. And it's not a happy experience at all. But over the years in Connecticut, I think I met him socially before I, in fact, oh, I know I auditioned. So right after Evita, when was Sunday in the Park with George? Well, that was 84. I was curious if you were like a fan even before that, because at Les Mouches, you sang Not While I'm Around.

[6:04] Patti LuPone: Oh, right. So that's, and I have a picture with Steve. Yeah. Had you seen Sweeney Todd with Angela?

[6:12] Patti LuPone: Yeah, yeah. Oh God, yeah. Oh, and God, I mean, I can still see it in my mind's eye. It was so incredible. So incredible. But I auditioned for Bernadette's replacement and didn't get it. But I remember Steve coming down the aisle saying, I don't want any belting. And I went, oh God, I didn't know, intimidation right off the top. I didn't get to play what Mary Ann Plunkett did. And I was convinced that Steve hated me. That was the beginning of, oh, he doesn't like me. He thinks I'm a belter. And, you know, what is belting anyway? I'm not Ethel Merman, who was a trumpet. I don't even know if you could call her a belter. She was a trumpet. Then when I was offered Nellie Lovett with the New York Phil, and I don't even remember what year that was.

The first thing I said was, does Steve know? And it was due to Wells Kaufman, actually. Wells wanted to do five years of Steven's work from 70 to 75. He was the artistic administrator of the New York Philharmonic at that time. Right. And then he went over, he was the CEO of the Ravinia Festival. And what happened was we did Sweeney with the Phil, and then we followed him to Ravinia, and we did the five years there. I was apparently approved by Steven. That was something that Nellie Lovett, never in my mind did I think it would ever be right for Nellie or offer the role. So that was my first Sondheim role. Actually doing them. But so then, after not getting the replacement dot in Sunday in the Park, which of course, you know, I stand with millions of fans just being utterly dismayed and horrified at that.

Although maybe if you had done that, you wouldn't have done Les Miserables. I don't know whether that timing would have lined up in 85. So maybe it was all meant to be. But the year after that there, I think the timing of Into the Woods is that they were getting ready to go do it. They had done a workshop at Playwrights Horizons where Betty Buckley played the witch, and then they were getting ready to go to the Old Globe.

[8:26] Ben Rimalower: Really? She played it first and then Ellen Foley?

[8:28] Patti LuPone: Yeah, she did it on both sides. They rehired her. I think that that workshop at Playwrights was very short and, you know, was almost more like a table read. And I think that maybe Betty just maybe that's when she went into song and dance. I think she was unavailable to go to San Diego. I don't really know how that worked out at that time. But I know they offered you the witch at a certain point in there, which I believe was for San Diego. Is that right?

[9:01] Patti LuPone: No, no, it was for Broadway. But so it was after they got back from San Diego. Yeah. And Stephen James wanted me to play the witch. And I went, but I want to play Cinderella. Which is so obvious. I want to play Cinderella. So they let me audition for Cinderella. Yeah. And offered me the witch. Here's the sad part. I had no idea what the role entailed. Yeah. Nothing. They didn't show me any music, nothing. And so when it was the witch again, we went into negotiation and Bernadette got everything that I didn't.

[9:44] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. And what does that mean, everything?

[9:47] Patti LuPone: Well, it was billing, especially billing. It was like, oh, no, no, no, you're going to be below the title and everybody's going to be in alphabetical order. And I went, I don't think so. And we passed on it. And then Bernadette got it all. And so that was incredibly frustrating. Why? Why do you treat me this way and somebody else a different way? I mean, she was also cast extremely last minute. They were like two weeks from starting rehearsals at the time that she was cast. I don't know if that's the luck of the good for her because she got it all because they went, yeah, but also, you know, it was sort of like, I didn't know anything about the role. Yeah. It was obvious casting. And unfortunately, you know, I, I regret, I don't mean I don't, I mean, I was able to do Anything Goes and, and we were that sleeper hit. Yeah.

[11:02] Patti LuPone: Nobody imagined that Anything Goes would be competing with Phantom of the Opera, Andrew Lloyd Webber and Steven Sondheim. Nobody anticipated that. And it was a riot. That was that, you know, if I had a choice, I would want people to be laughing. I mean, they laughed tears in their eyes. You could see the jokes coming a mile away and you still laughed at them. Um, and you know, Jerry did a phenomenal job doing that. And you know, but anyway, so back to Into the Woods, I was offered it again when I was playing Nellie Lovett at San Francisco, with the San Francisco symphony. For the revival in 2001. But I was already in negotiations for Noises Off and Steve sat in my dressing room and I went, I'm in the middle of negotiations. You know, this is the worst possible timing because they're almost complete. I wished I'd had done it. And I think at some point I still need to play the witch.

[11:49] Ben Rimalower: Yes. Here.

[11:53] Patti LuPone: I get it. I get it. But they did it already with somebody else.

[11:56] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[11:57] Patti LuPone: You know what I mean? It's like, you know, now they're not thinking of me for the witch, which is weird.

[12:02] Ben Rimalower: I'm always thinking of you for The Witch and for every other part. But Paul Ford spoke very highly of your audition for Cinderella, actually. I mean, wouldn't we all wish the tape of that existed? He said, Patti came in and sang this sort of soprano-y ingenue part very, very, very well. I was, you know, two thumbs up on your Cinderella.

[12:31] Patti LuPone: Well, you know, people forget that I played Rosamund Musgrove in The Rubber Bridegroom. People forget that I am basically a comedian. And that I have a ditzy ingenue side. All they see is, you know, whether you're as good as your last shift. Everybody thought I was, you know, this tycoona bitch, you know. But I mean, so, and then Ira Weitzman had notes on that audition timing being in the fall of '86. Is it possible that there was like, that they came back to you a second time for The Witch, like later on, like they started before San Diego offering it to you, even if they weren't, even if you weren't going to go, just to have you cast, you know?

[13:16] Ben Rimalower: No, unless my agents passed for me, but no, they would have told me.

[13:20] Patti LuPone: Yeah. Now, the only thing I remember, and my experience with it was the Broadway production. And I can still remember auditioning for Cinderella. I didn't need to audition for The Witch. And they came back and said, we want you to play The Witch. I mean, do you wish, in a way, if you had auditioned, maybe you would have had more a sense of what the part was.

[13:48] Patti LuPone: Well, I wish they had given me material, so I knew which was. I mean, I know that Betty Buckley's frustration was with the material, that so much of what we associate with the final role was written very, very last minute, some of it even late in Broadway previews. So she never, you know, had that. She had a rap and she, you know, she's surrounded by co-stars singing beautiful music that she didn't have to sing. And I think that was during, they did that second workshop was in the summer of '87, before they started the Broadway rehearsals, but very, very close time to that. So she was in there right until just a few weeks before they started rehearsals. So I often wondered, is that when your offer was then? Like, after Betty was gone, before they cast Bernadette in that tiny window? Or would it have been prior to the workshop?

[14:45] Patti LuPone: It was before Betty came in. They fired Ellen Foley for some reason. I auditioned.

[14:55] Ben Rimalower: Who did they cast? They must have cast Betty.

[15:00] Patti LuPone: Yeah, yeah.

[15:01] Ben Rimalower: Betty was fired and then they hired Bernadette.

[15:04] Patti LuPone: Okay. And, you know, were you, did you even get to see it on Broadway or was it?

[15:10] Patti LuPone: You did. And did you think, I'm, you know, I made the right choice. I'm in this hilarious, amazing hit. Or was there sadness of like, oh, this is this Sondheim role?

[15:22] Patti LuPone: It was always a question. You always, one always, well, I don't know about anybody else. I always question my decisions. What do I know? You know what I mean? I respond emotionally. And what do I really know? I don't really, you know, I'm trying to find the right word. I'm trying to find the right word to how you make decisions. Mine are always organic and emotional. And that's not necessarily the right way to go about making decisions. You know, was I right to leave Liz in London? Yes, I might not. The Witch in the Woods.

[16:04] Patti LuPone: So I know that I was having a blast doing Anything Goes. And I don't remember having an overwhelming feeling about Into the Woods on Broadway. It was very dark.

[16:24] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[16:25] Patti LuPone: Very dark. And I didn't understand it.

[16:33] Patti LuPone: I didn't. And also the scenery bugged the shit out of me, because it kept, when the trees came in, that made that noise. And I'm thinking, what? I'm not in fairyland anymore.

[16:50] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[16:51] Patti LuPone: No, I mean, the scenery was a problem. I remember that.

[16:55] Ben Rimalower: The scene of the trees made a lot of noise.

[16:57] Patti LuPone: Yeah, that's too bad. And I remember, I think, being confused by it. But that could have just been the day I saw it, and my concentration level. You know, I was just confirmed.

[17:11] Ben Rimalower: I think you had a really structured, like, taken, you know, your eyes off the camera, like your head was, was our of us, But that could have just been the day I saw it, and my concentration level. You know, I was, it was a matinee, I think.

[17:27] Patti LuPone: I mean, it's funny with Into the Woods. I mean, for me, Sondheim shows, I always ultimately love them the most, but I rarely fully get them on the first experience. And Into the Woods is a show that, it's funny, I'm doing this podcast, because it's probably not even in my top six favorite Sondheim shows. I've just always been so fascinated about the creation of it. And it has such a life now with the younger generation that grew up watching that video and seeing the Disney movie. And it's, so it's really kind of the most widely known Sondheim musical, you know, whether it deserves to be or not.

[18:09] Patti LuPone: And the, you know, I mean, those, the darkness and, or the way it's resolved or not resolved is what people always struggle. I mean, the Frank Rich Review was very mixed about it, even though he had loved Sunday in the Park with George so much. You know, and they famously had people leaving an intermission, you know, or thinking it was over.

[18:30] Ben Rimalower: You're not alone. Were there, did you go see the revival that you'd passed on, you know, in the 2000s or any of the other?

[18:42] Patti LuPone: Oh, you mean the one that had Vanessa Williams?

[18:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[18:46] Patti LuPone: No, I didn't see it. I think I was on stage.

[18:48] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, well, I guess it would have been Noises Off times.

[18:51] Patti LuPone: No, that Noises Off.

[18:52] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yes, that was, that was Noises Off. But then, yeah. And then didn't I do something after that? Didn't I go somewhere? No, I didn't see that revival.

[19:01] Patti LuPone: I saw this last revival.

[19:03] Ben Rimalower: Yes. Did you see it like when it first opened with Sara Bareilles?

[19:07] Patti LuPone: Yes.

[19:08] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Yeah.

[19:08] Patti LuPone: I loved her. And I loved seeing it at encores. I mean, kind of like the Sweeney Todd that I met you working on. To hear a Sondheim score with a full orchestra is, you know, a rare, a rare pleasure. So that was really wonderful.

[19:31] Ben Rimalower: But I'm glad to hear you say that you still feel the witch is in your purview because.

[19:36] Patti LuPone: Yeah, but it's one thing to have it in mind. Somebody else has to have it in theirs.

[19:42] Ben Rimalower: Well, I'm certain there's a lot of people that would feel that way, you know, and Into the Woods is one of those shows that there seems to be, you know, no end to how many different incarnations people will see, you know.

[19:56] Patti LuPone: Yeah, right. And, and you could do it in one of these kind of concert styles, like, you know, I mean, I know those things are a somewhat thankless marathon for the performers. But, you know, then that's a way to give it to us for, for eternity without having to, you know, spend your year on it.

[20:19] Ben Rimalower: I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to make the plan for you, Patti, that's all.

[20:23] Patti LuPone: You'll have to run lines with me.

[20:25] Ben Rimalower: Any, any time. I've got, I've got the Into the Woods script ready to go.

[20:31] Patti LuPone: And yeah, well, it's the last one. I mean, you haven't sung any of the music from it ever, I don't think.

[20:37] Patti LuPone: Well, no, I haven't.

[20:39] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, that's, that's rare. I even heard you do Move On from Sunday in the Park with George in an early incarnation of the Patti and Mandy show.

[20:49] Patti LuPone: Right, yeah.

[20:50] Ben Rimalower: So I didn't get your dot, but I, and I'll say you were belting Move On and I was very happy about it. I don't know what Steve was talking about, but that was absolutely the way to go.

[21:02] Patti LuPone: Well, no, I mixed it, I, it was a mix, it's always a mix.

[21:06] Ben Rimalower: Well, you, well, you, your mix famously has, has belting proportions. That's, wasn't there a voice teacher who was teaching like the Patti LuPone mix at a certain point, like during Evita?

[21:21] Patti LuPone: I have no idea.

[21:22] Ben Rimalower: I think, I think that was the thing. I'm sorry you didn't get money for it. But, but I'm glad you're, you're still studying with Joan later. I've seen you recently just in as fabulous voice as ever, unbelievably. I mean, just, so I know, I know the witch is still ripe, still ripe in your voice.

[21:41] Patti LuPone: Yes, I, I, yeah, I'm, I'm surprised at my voice. I have no idea why I still have one, but I do, thank God.

[21:49] Ben Rimalower: Well, it's just living like a nun, you know, and just being just devoted to the voice. That's it, right, Patti?

[21:56] Patti LuPone: No.

[22:00] Ben Rimalower: Amazing. Well, I, I'm so, I'm so happy to, to get this from you because, like I said, I mean, you know, I think for everybody that ever since you did the Sweeney Todd and then of course Company and, you know, you're just such a part of Sondheim history of, you know, that last chapter of his career here, and passion for, I just showed my friend that your PBS passion with Audra and Michael Cerveris, so spectacular. And, and then this is this, this missing, missing link. So I'm very happy to know it.

[22:42] Patti LuPone: Thank you, darling.

[22:45] Ben Rimalower: And we'll, we'll forever regret that Paul Ford did not record that one day of teaching you, it wasn't even on the steps of the palace. It was the early, earlier version of it, Back to the Palace. But, but I hear you slayed and I believe it.

[23:06] Patti LuPone: I would have been a good Cinderella.

[23:10] Ben Rimalower: Well, listen, it's not too late, Patti, you could do all those songs.

[23:14] Patti LuPone: But I would just, I just would have had fun playing the role.

[23:17] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. You would have been funny running in in the ball gown, falling on your face. I mean, I, I know that would have been a lot.

[23:25] Patti LuPone: I mean, must grab all over, all over, all over again.

[23:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, well, so I, we didn't get that and we didn't get your dot, but, but I'm holding out for your witch.

[23:38] Patti LuPone: Thank you.

[23:39] Patti LuPone: Me too.