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[0:00] Dan Tracy: So an actor is saying his lines, and then out of nowhere, he just starts singing.

[0:14] Joe Carroll: Okay, cool. Working? Yes. Welcome to Guys Who Like Musicals. Welcome to Guys Who Like Musicals. I'm

[0:21] Dan Tracy: Dan Tracy. I'm Joe Carroll. I have eight, well by the time you're hearing this, I have, god, four performances left in the cast of Waitress. Yikes. And then I will be unemployed Broadway actor Dan Tracy.

[0:32] Joe Carroll: No, you won't. We can talk about it now. It came out on the web. It's official.

[0:39] Dan Tracy: It's official. Dan is doing Gun and Powder at the Signature Theatre starting, when do you actually start?

[0:47] Joe Carroll: I start rehearsals January 2nd. This show is gonna be a monster. This is such a huge freaking deal. Solea Pfeiffer, Emmy Raver, Donald Weber. Oh, god. Dan Tracy. Directed by Robert O'Hara, who just did Slave Play. Come on, Dan. This is such not a small job.

[1:07] Dan Tracy: This is not. This is.

[1:14] Joe Carroll: Okay, play it cool, Joe.

[1:19] Dan Tracy: I'm not cool. I'm not cool. You're yelling.

[1:23] Joe Carroll: I know. I'm trying to stay relaxed about it. It's so cool, dude. Because somebody was like, how are you feeling about your last week of Waitress? And I was like, honestly, I'm pretty panicked about this next job I have.

[1:29] Dan Tracy: Well, you guys are doing a reading right now or a little workshop to work on the script?

[1:34] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Well, no, actually, I thought it was gonna be like table reads, sink your teeth in, get to work. But so far, it's just like music. It's like learn all the principal music.

[1:46] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Because you guys have basically three weeks of rehearsal.

[1:49] Joe Carroll: We have three weeks of rehearsal.

[1:50] Dan Tracy: It's not much.

[1:55] Joe Carroll: Yeah. So it'll be good to go in and like have I have two voice lessons scheduled this week.

[2:01] Dan Tracy: Good. And it'll be good to just go in to the first day of rehearsal and everyone knows their music.

[2:05] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Well, just get to the principals know their music. Yeah. Just get to the you know, get to create it, you know, like start to work through it. This is so exciting. And we're not airing it this week, but we got a chance to talk to the writers.

[2:15] Dan Tracy: Yeah. So we interviewed Angelica Sherry and Ross Baum.

[2:20] Joe Carroll: They are amazing. We're going to air that we think around the time that you open possibly.

[2:26] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Yeah. At some point, maybe like before we start tech or something so that it's like if you live in the D.C. area, you'll have an understanding of what's going on. And if you don't, then you can just blow it up on social media and then try and get that thing transferred to Broadway.

[2:40] Joe Carroll: Right. Hopefully I get to do it.

[2:47] Dan Tracy: But this week. Damn, but a bum, but a bum, but a bum, but a bum, but a bum, but a bum. Why am I playing Barracuda? That was supposed to be a drum roll. And then it was like, yeah, I'll give you a drum roll. But who do we have? Who? I we've been sitting on this.

[3:02] Joe Carroll: He OK. We alluded to this like six episodes ago. OK, but it's happening. It's happening. The holidays. Because happy Hanukkah. Giving you this as a Hanukkah, Christmas, Christmas, Hanukkah, Christmas, Hanukkah, Hanukkah gift gift. Guys. Gavin Creel is on the show, which you already know, because it probably says it in the title, probably so like that was all right, fine.

[3:22] Dan Tracy: No, but I haven't read the title yet. We I can't believe that he talked to us. I can't. When we started this, we were like, you know, maybe one day he would come and talk to us. And, you know, it's like getting Wayne Gretzky to talk on a hockey podcast. It's like, whoa, exactly. Exactly.

[3:41] Joe Carroll: So I'm ninety nine point nine nine percent sure that everyone knows who Gavin Creel is. But just if you don't and we can put a little context to this Broadway Waitress.

[3:54] Dan Tracy: Hello, Dolly. Tony Award winner, winner of a Tony Award for Cornelius Hackle. She Loves Me. The Book of Mormon, which he did all over the place, most notably won a frickin Olivier on the West End. Hair, La Cage aux Folles, Thoroughly Modern Millie, and just like Tony nominations for Hair and Thoroughly Modern Millie.

[4:16] Joe Carroll: Yeah, it's just it's unbelievable. And he came and he sat in your living room and we got to talk to him. What a dream. Just a dream.

[4:27] Dan Tracy: I got the chance to work with him a little bit in college. He was a voice teacher at Michigan when my senior year and I just got to know the guy. He is one of the loveliest men. Ever a crazy talent, and I get I got a chance to say this to him at the end of the interview, and it was kind of he really like changed the game as far as musical theater is concerned, as far as training is concerned, as far as like going to BFA programs, studying, having it be I think having it be like a legitimate professional training ground, you know, to get a BFA.

[5:02] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Yeah. Because he went because he was he was Jimmy in Thoroughly Modern Millie. He definitely put Michigan on the map in a huge way.

[5:11] Dan Tracy: Yeah. And just I don't know, I could ramble on about how wonderful this man is and how much I've looked up to him since I was. I'm pretty sure I do at the end just.

[5:23] Joe Carroll: Yeah. And like, you know, same as Joe, I think one of the reasons that I even cared to want to pursue this was because of Gavin's talent and because of the kinds of roles that he played. And I was like, I want to be like him. I want to do that. And to get to then be his cover in Waitress and to get to know him has changed my perspective even further because of like the kind of guy he is.

[5:48] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Just just a man. You'll you'll hear it.

[5:53] Joe Carroll: Yeah. He keeps trying to get us to answer questions.

[5:58] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Yeah. He does that thing that people do. He flips this. He flips it. And so like we're trying to ask him a question. He's like, what do you think about to talk to you guys about what you were like? No, damn it. Tony Award winning Gavin Creel. We don't people don't hear from us and they don't want to hear from us anymore.

[6:09] Joe Carroll: We're going to turn this off and we're going to let you talk to Gavin because they're like, oh, we're going to turn this off and let you listen to Gavin because that's what you're here for.

[6:13] Dan Tracy: Jimmy. Here he comes. I hardly know you. What do I need with love? I got it good.

[6:26] Gavin Creel: Gavin Creel's in your living room. He's in your living room. This is easily the best living room I've ever been in. So I'm here. Wow. It is lovely. And we walked around the garden. We talk about the garden, which is fun because it's a podcast and no one has ever seen it. You know, so let their imagination picture this palatial, which it kind of is. I'm not especially for New York City. You have an herb garden in New York City.

[6:50] Dan Tracy: Yeah. A big one.

[6:56] Gavin Creel: Yeah. I used to I used to have the one with the little pots on the windowsill.

[7:02] Dan Tracy: Yeah. We have also died. Yours are thriving. Mine were all dead.

[7:06] Gavin Creel: Well, it's you know, it's fall now. So they're there. They are dying. But they had a good run. They had a good run. And there's so many of them that like I don't even know what to do.

[7:11] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Do you cook with them?

[7:17] Gavin Creel: Yeah. I put, you know, rosemary. It's rosemary, basil, thyme, sage, the sage. Actually, you can't. You cannot sing it. The sage I have to I have to harvest for for burning the demons, you know, demons in here.

[7:32] Dan Tracy: Well, you know, I bring them. I carry them. And then you say, Jamal, right?

[7:38] Gavin Creel: Yeah. Gavin Creel's in Gavin Creel's in my house.

[7:42] Dan Tracy: I know. Why am I talking about plants? This is the power.

[7:47] Gavin Creel: I know. Yeah, he does this.

[7:52] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Be careful. It's you talking about yourself. That's like one of his special skills. I'm like, why am I talking to you about this? Thank you for that.

[8:05] Gavin Creel: No, it's true. It's amazing.

[8:10] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Have you ever seen any of the old SNL sketches where Chris Farley is interviewing Paul McCartney or like Chris Farley has his interview show and it's Paul McCartney or some famous person? And he says things like, do you remember when you were in the Beatles? That was awesome.

[8:26] Gavin Creel: Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of kind of how this is going to go. So, you know, so I love it. Do you remember when you were in Hello, Dolly? That was awesome. Remember when you won an Olivier?

[8:31] Gavin Creel: I'm not going to disagree that for me, that was awesome. Also, I'm going to say not to do what you just said I do. But do you remember when we were in the studio taking a voice lesson together?

[8:35] Joe Carroll: Yeah. That's one of my greatest memories. I said something to you, Joe, about singing that I've that was the first time I've ever said it. And I've said it again and again since that we discovered together. Do you remember? I think about it every day.

[8:46] Gavin Creel: About the glass, the glass, the glass wall.

[8:52] Joe Carroll: Yeah. And Joe, Joe was singing beautifully, but he was I think I think I use Brian Darcy James as an example or something or maybe Norbert or somebody.

[9:01] Gavin Creel: Sure. Two heroes of mine.

[9:05] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Ours, I think. Right. Right. Totally. But just and I have to grapple with it. I think you're doing that thing, Gavin, that Joe and you discovered and found together where you're like singing, you're you're pressing your entire face and body up against a piece of glass trying to sing. And Brian Darcy James is on the other side of the glass. And I'm like, back up and let yourself sing like Joe Carroll or sing like Gavin Creel, Dan Tracy, like let your let your own voice come through. Stop trying to smash because that glass isn't going to break. And you're just then then I'm just adding tension. And when my vibrato sounds like shit or my my support is crap or I'm pushing, especially being in eight shows a week or being on a Broadway stage, I'm constantly doing that. And I think back up. If Joe was here, he would say, hey, get your face off that glass. It's such a cool thing.

[9:51] Gavin Creel: He thinks about you, man.

[9:56] Joe Carroll: I do. I do. This is awesome. This is awesome. The first time I ever we we found that together. We did. And I was like, yeah, it's like this. Right. And you go, yeah, yeah.

[10:01] Gavin Creel: Yeah. And I was so and not to kiss your ass, but I'm on your podcast. But I'm so proud to have been there and been in that room and then watched you your success. I mean, probably show after probably show and creating and and getting your you're playing a little.

[10:18] Joe Carroll: Yeah. On a Broadway stage. Like, it's pretty cool.

[10:24] Gavin Creel: Well, I mean, that you're incredibly sweet, man. And that but I talk about that with my students all the time. And it was it was this one. And I think about it nightly because you're in a different place on a on stage every night. You sometimes you're a little tired, you're a little groggy, you're a little whatever. And if you try to push, if you try to sing at a 10, if you try to like, you know, turn it up to 11 every time, it doesn't sound good. That just sounds loud.

[10:44] Joe Carroll: And my friend Jeff Packard jokes about how I didn't. He says, I don't I didn't want to be the best singer on the stage. I just want to be the loudest, which I think is a great way to that.

[10:54] Gavin Creel: But but I you have to you have to have that feeling of like, you know, this glass wall, your your hands are up against it a little bit back and you're singing, you know, you have to.

[11:05] Joe Carroll: I think the shortcut was we have to know our limitations today. And that's why it shows a week. I'm sure you've experienced this, haven't you, Dan? Like knowing I don't actually I have 60 percent. I'm going to give that. I always say they're getting 100 percent of 60 percent today. Right. That's what they're getting.

[11:23] Gavin Creel: Right. My favorite, Sasha Allen, who I did Hair with, she would if anybody saw her in here, you might find this funny because you'd be like, yeah, I get it. But Sasha would come downstairs, mane of hair, hot, hot body. She's one of the greatest vocalists, I think, in the world. And she would come down and she'd tap her throat and she's like, we'll see. And then she'd look at me and I go, oh, me too, Sasha. I'm I'm I don't know how I'm going to give them an A show. And she goes, honey, why give a B when a C will do that was like mantra and her C. That's again, right. If you're trying all you're going to Jeff Packard.

[12:08] Gavin Creel: Yeah. You're going to just sound loud.

[12:12] Joe Carroll: Yeah. And not good. There's going to be no color. There's going to be no like, you know, right. Yes. Or expression. And yeah, I just I feel this brings a point that I wanted to ask about and talk about. I'm disenchanted with musical theater at the moment for a few reasons. Number one reason is because I love it. And when somebody like when you're when the thing you love the most isn't behaving well or or you feel as being is abandoned you or whatever. And this is all so so self-righteous. So forgive me, but like. I am I'm really tired of people just screaming on stage, I'm tired of the money note, people applauding when somebody screams and holds a note two thirds of the way through the song, and I'm like.

[12:54] Gavin Creel: You haven't told me anything about yourself.

[12:57] Dan Tracy: You haven't. There's no point of view.

[12:58] Joe Carroll: There's no story. There's no character.

[12:59] Gavin Creel: There's no, it's just being fierce.

[13:02] Dan Tracy: Yeah. And I feel like I'm grandpa saying that.

[13:05] Joe Carroll: No, I think that's, I think you're like, we spent so much time and young students still spend so much time thinking about like how to sing the highest and do the most.

[13:13] Gavin Creel: Sometimes for some people, it's like riffing, right?

[13:18] Joe Carroll: Or whatever. Yeah.

[13:21] Gavin Creel: But there's so much to be said for just like tone and story.

[13:25] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[13:26] Gavin Creel: Because like, do you remember going to a show and being like, I remember being truly moved by how high that note was?

[13:32] Joe Carroll: You know? No.

[13:36] Gavin Creel: I remember thinking when I saw Idina go up on that thing for the first time and I would look down and my hands were like, I'm like, yeah, I was crying.

[13:47] Joe Carroll: Yeah, I was. I was.

[13:48] Gavin Creel: But that was, uh, I think a combination of Joe DeLude makeup design.

[13:53] Joe Carroll: Right.

[13:54] Gavin Creel: A combination of, is it's not Susan Hilferty, is Susan Hilferty who did the costume dress, Mark Platt producing it.

[14:01] Joe Carroll: Right.

[14:04] Gavin Creel: And Joe Mantello and Lisa and everybody staging that moment. Like Joe coming up with the idea. I'm assuming it was Joe.

[14:07] Joe Carroll: Like the dress becomes the whole stage and they're all down and she's up.

[14:10] Gavin Creel: And then, of course, at the top of the cake, Idina.

[14:14] Joe Carroll: Right.

[14:17] Gavin Creel: Who is a dangerous singer?

[14:19] Joe Carroll: Yes. And that's exciting to me.

[14:21] Gavin Creel: Right. But I remember seeing Rent. I saw the original company of Rent four months after it opened on Broadway.

[14:24] Joe Carroll: And I remember going, I don't know how any of these people are going to have a career after this, except for that girl right there.

[14:29] Gavin Creel: She knows how to sing.

[14:30] Joe Carroll: I was wrong because all of them went on to do incredible things.

[14:34] Gavin Creel: But I was just so worried, right, because that was sort of the, don't you think that was like the contemporary advent of...

[14:39] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Loud.

[14:41] Gavin Creel: Yeah. Well, you know, but also I think that, you know, like we talked to Alex Brightman a couple of weeks ago and like the guy like do that.

[14:44] Joe Carroll: So sometimes you have the facility to just push the edge.

[14:50] Gavin Creel: But then he did hemorrhage multiple like on School of Rock.

[14:54] Joe Carroll: And he just pushed it to the edge and then it broke.

[14:57] Gavin Creel: And then, but it's like that.

[14:59] Joe Carroll: So he's like, no, that's what you're going to get.

[15:01] Gavin Creel: Like, you're going to get 150 percent.

[15:03] Joe Carroll: And then when I break, I break and then we'll put the pieces back together, which is one.

[15:08] Gavin Creel: It's almost like the athlete's mentality or like the football player's mentality as opposed to like the baseball player's mentality.

[15:14] Joe Carroll: It's like you're going to play 12 games as opposed to play 180 games.

[15:19] Gavin Creel: Like you can't get through 180 games going, you know what I mean?

[15:22] Joe Carroll: I don't know. That's just totally.

[15:23] Gavin Creel: And that doesn't have a crap analogy.

[15:24] Joe Carroll: The point being that doesn't have to be plan A.

[15:27] Gavin Creel: Right.

[15:30] Joe Carroll: Like you can find, I think we all, all three of us in this room have like a place where we like know we have our, I think this is from you, our superpower.

[15:34] Gavin Creel: Oh, yeah.

[15:37] Joe Carroll: Right.

[15:38] Gavin Creel: That's one of your things.

[15:39] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Superpower.

[15:40] Gavin Creel: And like, so each one of us has a superpower.

[15:45] Joe Carroll: But like your superpower for every single guy in the business, for example, doesn't have to be being a tenor who sings really high.

[15:47] Gavin Creel: That doesn't have to be.

[15:48] Joe Carroll: I stressed out about it all through college.

[15:50] Gavin Creel: Yeah. Go blue, by the way.

[15:52] Joe Carroll: But I stressed out about it because I was like, I have to be able to sing a B flat, maybe a B natural.

[15:58] Gavin Creel: This is before you guys were all screaming D's and E's and stuff like.

[16:03] Joe Carroll: I was like, oh, that sounds nice.

[16:04] Gavin Creel: Yeah, exactly. That's low. Screw you.

[16:07] Joe Carroll: I'm like, gee, is a G enough? Great.

[16:10] Gavin Creel: But like knowing, knowing that that's, it's not actually about that.

[16:15] Joe Carroll: Right.

[16:17] Gavin Creel: It's about, yeah.

[16:21] Joe Carroll: You know, Capathia Jenkins is, uh, that woman can sing.

[16:24] Gavin Creel: She can wail. She can blow down the house.

[16:27] Joe Carroll: But you listen to her recordings and she sings with economy.

[16:30] Gavin Creel: And it's tiny and beautiful and story in line.

[16:33] Joe Carroll: And sure, she can blow out the roof.

[16:34] Gavin Creel: She can blow the roof off.

[16:38] Joe Carroll: Yeah, well, so can you.

[16:40] Gavin Creel: But that's the thing that like there is the story. Stories first.

[16:43] Joe Carroll: I think so. I think it needs to be.

[16:45] Gavin Creel: Yeah.

[16:48] Joe Carroll: This is so I love that we started here.

[16:50] Gavin Creel: We're so nerdy. Gavin Creel's in your living room.

[16:52] Joe Carroll: We're nerds.

[16:53] Gavin Creel: Have you, can we go back to like young Gavin?

[16:55] Joe Carroll: Have you always been like a musical theater obsessed kid or were you?

[16:58] Gavin Creel: I was a swimmer.

[17:00] Joe Carroll: Cool.

[17:01] Gavin Creel: I grew up swimming.

[17:02] Joe Carroll: You look like a swimmer.

[17:04] Gavin Creel: You got long, long, long hands.

[17:05] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[17:07] Gavin Creel: Yeah. I was a backstroker and a freestyler.

[17:09] Joe Carroll: Cool.

[17:10] Gavin Creel: Started when I was six. My two, I have two older sisters and they were both swimmers.

[17:12] Joe Carroll: I kind of just followed them.

[17:15] Gavin Creel: Then they went to basketball and I was like, peace.

[17:17] Joe Carroll: Have fun with that. Thanks.

[17:19] Gavin Creel: And we all, we're all in the like the church choir and school choir.

[17:21] Joe Carroll: And I had a fifth and sixth grade teacher, Nancy Glick, who taught us how to sing in three-part harmony at nine, ten years old.

[17:25] Gavin Creel: And my sisters did it. We had cassette tapes and I would listen to, oh, what was her name?

[17:30] Joe Carroll: Elizabeth Pulaski, I think she sang in my Easter bonnet with all the thrills upon it.

[17:34] Gavin Creel: I'll be the grandest fellow in the Easter parade.

[17:36] Joe Carroll: I think Irving Berlin, maybe.

[17:38] Gavin Creel: Uh-huh.

[17:39] Joe Carroll: Oh, yeah. She was dead center of the pitch at nine years old.

[17:41] Gavin Creel: Perfect clarity. I was obsessed with her voice.

[17:44] Joe Carroll: I would play her solo over and over again.

[17:46] Gavin Creel: It was my sister's year.

[17:48] Joe Carroll: And I think that was one of the first little, you know, you get the, I don't know if you look back over your past.

[17:51] Gavin Creel: Yeah.

[17:52] Joe Carroll: Little hooks that got you.

[17:54] Gavin Creel: That's weirdly an early one. Now that I've never really said that out loud.

[17:57] Joe Carroll: That's cool.

[17:59] Gavin Creel: I used to listen to those tapes and then I got in fifth and sixth grade and then fast forward to high school.

[18:02] Joe Carroll: I did Camelot my sophomore year.

[18:04] Gavin Creel: I was Sir Sagamore. I had two words and mine.

[18:06] Joe Carroll: That was it humiliating.

[18:08] Gavin Creel: The chorus behind me, the chorus of 190 people because no one got cut, would giggle when I say my line.

[18:13] Joe Carroll: I'm like, shut up, dicks.

[18:15] Gavin Creel: And then I did a couple parts in high school and I think I got bit.

[18:20] Joe Carroll: I think I thought maybe I wanted to be a movie director.

[18:24] Gavin Creel: I was obsessed with movies and I wanted to, I read books about Spielberg and Lucas and it's like, oh, I want to, I want to do that.

[18:29] Joe Carroll: And then I did Bye Bye Birdie my junior year.

[18:33] Gavin Creel: And people are like, you're really good at this.

[18:37] Joe Carroll: And that's all you need sometimes is somebody.

[18:39] Gavin Creel: I think I think all we need, period.

[18:41] Joe Carroll: It's why I think Sara Bareilles' song "You Matter to Me" is the greatest song she's ever written, because it's the simplest chord structure.

[18:44] Gavin Creel: It's nothing you think you haven't heard before.

[18:47] Joe Carroll: It's the words you've heard, but saying you matter to me like that for me is I think all human beings want.

[18:51] Gavin Creel: It's why I loved Avatar. The whole thing is I see you.

[18:54] Joe Carroll: Right.

[18:56] Gavin Creel: It's in a piece I'm writing now. It's like, it's like I see you. I see you.

[19:01] Joe Carroll: This is.

[19:02] Gavin Creel: I validate you anyway, I can't remember why I got on this thing.

[19:05] Joe Carroll: Oh, somebody said, yeah, somebody said.

[19:09] Gavin Creel: But also, I agree that that's my favorite song that she's ever written as well.

[19:12] Joe Carroll: And I remember when I heard it for the first time, I remember where I was like, it's one of those song moments where you're like, oh, my God, the magistrate to sit and write a song that is just, it's so difficult to make it so simple.

[19:20] Gavin Creel: It's so simple.

[19:22] Joe Carroll: Yeah, it's almost basic.

[19:23] Gavin Creel: I've heard people who I just violently disagree with be like, okay, we've heard this and I'm like, no, I haven't.

[19:27] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[19:29] Gavin Creel: Yes.

[19:30] Joe Carroll: It's also why I think, tangent, hi, welcome to this podcast.

[19:33] Gavin Creel: It's why I think Bobby and Kristen are geniuses because they're not.

[19:36] Joe Carroll: They write songs that you feel like I've heard this before.

[19:39] Gavin Creel: And yet you're like, no, I haven't.

[19:41] Joe Carroll: Remember me from Coco?

[19:43] Gavin Creel: Right. I think is so, so genius because it's in their head.

[19:46] Joe Carroll: It's sung by four different characters at four different times.

[19:49] Gavin Creel: Same words and means four different things.

[19:52] Joe Carroll: Totally. Just, I don't know.

[19:54] Gavin Creel: Anyway, so simplicity isn't always bad.

[19:56] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[19:58] Gavin Creel: No. And it's what it's the screaming thing we were talking about on Broadway.

[20:01] Joe Carroll: Or that's what I'm hungry for.

[20:03] Gavin Creel: Which is why when I saw both of them have their pluses and minuses, but I just saw two shows, the revival of Oklahoma and The Wrong Man.

[20:07] Joe Carroll: Back to back to seeing The Wrong Man on Wednesday.

[20:10] Gavin Creel: You are?

[20:11] Joe Carroll: Yeah, I can't wait to hear what you think.

[20:13] Gavin Creel: Yeah.

[20:15] Joe Carroll: Neither of them are perfect, neither is Gypsy.

[20:18] Gavin Creel: You know what I'm saying?

[20:20] Joe Carroll: Right.

[20:21] Gavin Creel: No, there's no perfect thing.

[20:23] Joe Carroll: Right.

[20:24] Gavin Creel: But I was like, I'm in, I'm buying this.

[20:26] Joe Carroll: I appreciated Ross.

[20:28] Gavin Creel: I think the songwriter is, I like pop music and I'm writing music for the theater that I want to live and breathe like pop music.

[20:31] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[20:32] Gavin Creel: Sarah, obviously, is from the pop world.

[20:34] Joe Carroll: Right.

[20:35] Gavin Creel: Irving Berlin was a pop writer.

[20:37] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[20:38] Gavin Creel: No. Yeah. And I love the idea that, can we bring that in?

[20:41] Joe Carroll: And I think he's done it in a really neat way.

[20:43] Gavin Creel: I think it, I mean, you can hear that on the album.

[20:45] Joe Carroll: That album is like his solo album.

[20:47] Gavin Creel: It's like totally, totally.

[20:49] Joe Carroll: As you know, it sounds like a John Belian album.

[20:51] Gavin Creel: Do you know John Belian?

[20:52] Joe Carroll: I've heard some of the stuff, right?

[20:54] Gavin Creel: It sounds like somebody who grew up on musical theater and like pop punk and now is like a hip hop artist.

[20:58] Joe Carroll: And Ross has that kind of, I love that.

[21:01] Gavin Creel: Bring all that in.

[21:03] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[21:04] Gavin Creel: Because that's what the audience wants to hear.

[21:06] Joe Carroll: I think especially younger audiences.

[21:08] Gavin Creel: Right. If we want to keep people interested in the theater.

[21:10] Joe Carroll: Right.

[21:11] Gavin Creel: Yeah. It's what I want to hear, too. I'm with you.

[21:13] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[21:14] Gavin Creel: And also I want to hear something in the theater that makes me go, oh, yeah, right.

[21:17] Joe Carroll: You know, or, oh, yes, I've heard that word, those words.

[21:20] Gavin Creel: You matter. But I, right.

[21:22] Joe Carroll: I've never really thought of it like that.

[21:24] Gavin Creel: And no, it's not going to resonate with every single person.

[21:27] Joe Carroll: But half you're going to love it.

[21:29] Gavin Creel: Half you're going to hate it.

[21:31] Joe Carroll: And like, it's fun to talk about it and to make it, you know, to actually disagree with somebody and be like, no, this is, I strongly disagree with your take on this song.

[21:36] Gavin Creel: And I think it's brilliant.

[21:38] Joe Carroll: And you might think it's simple and whatever, but like.

[21:40] Gavin Creel: Simple and plain, but not much to ask from somebody.

[21:43] Joe Carroll: What?

[21:44] Gavin Creel: Oh, yeah.

[21:46] Joe Carroll: That's why I saw Oklahoma, because I heard from people they hated it.

[21:49] Gavin Creel: Yeah.

[21:50] Joe Carroll: And then I heard from people they loved it.

[21:52] Gavin Creel: So it's like, that's the theater I want to see.

[21:54] Joe Carroll: Me too.

[21:55] Gavin Creel: I want to, I don't want to leave indifferent.

[21:57] Joe Carroll: No, no.

[21:58] Gavin Creel: And I, I also, you know, the other thing I'm tired of is people's and my opinion.

[22:01] Joe Carroll: I'm like, shut up.

[22:03] Gavin Creel: Like, like have an opinion.

[22:05] Joe Carroll: Talk about it amongst your friends.

[22:06] Gavin Creel: But like, I, you don't need to make a, sorry, I'm going to sound old, but you don't need to make a statement on everything in the world on your social media account to say, well, this is how I feel.

[22:11] Joe Carroll: We, when we didn't have social media before this moment, where do we do those at dinner parties, right?

[22:15] Gavin Creel: In classrooms, conversation.

[22:17] Joe Carroll: Right.

[22:18] Gavin Creel: When we could read body language and watch somebody wince and go and then temper our conversation a little so that we didn't hurt their feelings.

[22:23] Joe Carroll: Right.

[22:24] Gavin Creel: Where I'm at.

[22:25] Joe Carroll: I'm on my phone or I'm in Instagram or I'm on my computer and I can't read your body language and go, oh, you're not with me.

[22:30] Gavin Creel: Let me qualify what I'm saying.

[22:32] Joe Carroll: Let me make sure I, I'm just challenged by our need to make statements about how we feel about certain things.

[22:36] Gavin Creel: That said, I know I've done it and I'm trying to do it less.

[22:39] Joe Carroll: I'm trying to just go.

[22:41] Gavin Creel: My friends and I will say it's not for me and let's leave it at that.

[22:44] Joe Carroll: Let's leave it there.

[22:45] Gavin Creel: It's not for me.

[22:46] Joe Carroll: But who is it for?

[22:48] Gavin Creel: Right. You loved it. Awesome.

[22:50] Joe Carroll: It wasn't for me.

[22:52] Gavin Creel: Do you want to know why?

[22:54] Joe Carroll: Yeah, cool.

[22:56] Gavin Creel: I don't have to tell you because I don't want to piss on your parade.

[22:59] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[23:01] Gavin Creel: In the same way that you matter to me doesn't land for some people.

[23:05] Joe Carroll: You know, we're obsessed with this idea that like there is right and there is wrong.

[23:09] Gavin Creel: Right.

[23:10] Joe Carroll: And this is now permeating all aspects of our culture.

[23:12] Gavin Creel: Right.

[23:13] Joe Carroll: But like there's gray to everything.

[23:15] Gavin Creel: And like we used to be comfortable living in gray and having like the kind of decency and the respect for each other to like communicate in the gray.

[23:20] Joe Carroll: And now it's like, I'm right and you're wrong.

[23:23] Gavin Creel: If you're not on my team, you're on their team.

[23:25] Joe Carroll: And I don't want anything to do with us against them.

[23:27] Gavin Creel: And all the time.

[23:29] Joe Carroll: And that is true of like the way we talk about shows where it's like, oh, that show's trash.

[23:32] Gavin Creel: That's bad.

[23:33] Joe Carroll: I know.

[23:34] Gavin Creel: You know, and it's like, no, it's not bad.

[23:36] Joe Carroll: It's just you didn't connect to it.

[23:38] Gavin Creel: But it's not for you.

[23:40] Joe Carroll: You make films. You're a director.

[23:42] Gavin Creel: You're a writer. Do you write songs as well?

[23:44] Joe Carroll: No.

[23:45] Gavin Creel: I know you do poorly.

[23:47] Joe Carroll: Who cares?

[23:48] Gavin Creel: So do I.

[23:49] Joe Carroll: No, you don't.

[23:51] Gavin Creel: Oh, well, that's very nice.

[23:53] Joe Carroll: I love writing.

[23:54] Gavin Creel: And I think I'm actually getting better and better at it.

[23:56] Joe Carroll: But I'm really good.

[23:58] Gavin Creel: I'm going to tell you this.

[23:59] Joe Carroll: I'm just going to look around, see if you have a piano, because I have something I want to play, but you don't have a piano, so I won't play for you.

[24:03] Gavin Creel: No, man, this is what I get.

[24:05] Joe Carroll: I'm going to get you a keyboard.

[24:06] Gavin Creel: My guitar's downstairs.

[24:08] Joe Carroll: Yeah, I can't play guitar.

[24:10] Gavin Creel: Damn it, Joe.

[24:11] Joe Carroll: Joe can.

[24:12] Gavin Creel: But that'd be a moment.

[24:14] Joe Carroll: I think.

[24:15] Gavin Creel: I was about to quote "Green to Grey" back to you.

[24:17] Joe Carroll: Oh, I love it.

[24:19] Gavin Creel: This is the moment where you edit and then the song plays.

[24:22] Gavin Creel: There's a, I think there's a compassion that you get.

[24:25] Joe Carroll: I know there's a compassion that I got once you tried to create something.

[24:29] Gavin Creel: Hell yeah.

[24:30] Joe Carroll: And once you really tried to go down that, I think it's, it's evil if you don't adopt that compassion.

[24:35] Gavin Creel: Totally.

[24:36] Joe Carroll: I think that's where people become embittered and then they get mad.

[24:39] Gavin Creel: And why is that person succeeding?

[24:40] Joe Carroll: And I'm, I'm trying to make something to my musicals better than theirs.

[24:43] Gavin Creel: That's one direction.

[24:44] Joe Carroll: But I think the other direction is, oh my God, I've been sitting at this computer editing this short film for hours or whatever.

[25:49] Gavin Creel: I don't know, society. Well, it sounds so self-aggrandizing, but like, I can contribute to ways that don't limit that. I don't know. I don't know what I'm saying. Do you know what I'm saying?

[26:20] Dan Tracy: A hundred percent, because you have been given an incredible amount of privilege. You see the privilege. And so now you're just starting to think about ways to kind of give some privilege back or create opportunities for things to happen for people that don't have that potentially.

[26:49] Gavin Creel: Yeah.

[26:50] Dan Tracy: And make sure that people have access.

[26:51] Gavin Creel: Yeah, making sure people have access.

[26:52] Dan Tracy: Opportunities. I really think, and I know we all agree in this, arts education is everything. I think it's gonna be like a 30-year process. I don't know that we're gonna be here to enjoy the spoils of, like, we're gonna be retired and off in Maui drinking your Mai Tais. But like, I think it's five-year-olds and six-year-olds and not born yet creating arts education opportunities and talking to their parents to say, I know you have no money, you're living in a terrible apartment in New York City somewhere, and you don't think that this is a viable option because you want to get your kids that you're having out maybe, or you don't think it's an opportunity. Trust me, giving them opportunities, giving them schools, public schools that have great music or theater or, I don't know, coding and film and all that stuff, departments that there is a, there's more, I was just reading this article in New York Times, there's so many streaming devices now and it's only gonna be more content out there. And we need stories. We want people to tell. We don't need the same stories over and over again.

[28:01] Gavin Creel: This is a wonderful tangent.

[28:03] Dan Tracy: Please.

[28:04] Gavin Creel: It started with Bye Bye Birdie.

[28:06] Dan Tracy: Oh yeah.

[28:07] Gavin Creel: We were literally just like, it was like, what's a young Gavin Creel?

[28:09] Dan Tracy: Oh yeah, sorry.

[28:10] Gavin Creel: And we started talking about somebody seeing you and you matter to me and then we geeked out about you matter to me and then I'm just, this is where we are and this is where we started.

[28:19] Dan Tracy: I can get back to there if you want. It's so sweet.

[28:21] Gavin Creel: I just love, I love hacking back.

[28:23] Dan Tracy: Bye Bye Birdie is the reason that corporations are ruining the world.

[28:26] Gavin Creel: Right, exactly. That's been the last 15 minutes. But when you said, when you, you said that somebody saw you and somebody was, you know, that, that, you know, that bizarre relationship that as actors we have with, with people saying you're good, you know, and people, you know.

[28:41] Dan Tracy: It becomes an addiction almost.

[28:42] Gavin Creel: It becomes an addiction. And, but then after Bye Bye Birdie, then it was, then you're like, you're on this path. I just, I think I just entertained the idea that I can major in musical theater, and it was also because an upperclassman one older year older than me went majored musical theater from my hometown, which is sort of unheard of, and he went to University of Michigan.

[29:01] Gavin Creel: Yeah, because he was that his name is Jonathan Baker is Jonathan Baker. He's a filmmaker producer in LA. And a great guy. And he, he said to me, which you know in high school you're competing everybody's competing for the same part and you look at each other like we will never play the same part ever in my professional world. So I always had this feeling like he was like a competition and I realized no that's not how this works. Right. But he said, I really think you should audition for Michigan, which I thought was the most magnanimous thing, because I was dead set on going to Carnegie Mellon. And I wanted to have my own identity and I wanted to go there and I want the school was amazing and I heard that a cut system and I want to I want to survive the cut system and it's an actor school and blah blah blah.

So I auditioned for four schools, Northwestern, University of Michigan, Carnegie Mellon and Miami of Ohio because my parents wanted me to have an in state school in Miami didn't have a musical theater department so I auditioned for the theater department there.

[29:58] Gavin Creel: And I was lucky enough, fortunate, privileged to get into all four. And I told them, I don't want to go to Miami. It's where my sister went. I just I really want to go to one of these schools for musical theater. I didn't go to Northwestern because they didn't have a degree. They had a certificate. Right. I think it was important acting program. Yeah, it's still important to my parents that I have a BFA because you know how valuable that is. Bridges and roads. No, no, no. I can tap dance. But it's a degree. And it does it does matter sometimes even when you're applying for a teaching position. Yes. And they're like, oh, you don't have a degree.

[30:31] Gavin Creel: So, yeah, and I visited both schools and I was dead set on going to Carnegie Mellon. And I observed one acting class at Carnegie Mellon that Sutton Foster was in. She only went to, I think, one semester and I was there and my weekend I visited Sleeping Bag Weekend it was called and I went and she was in that class. I don't remember her last name. I just knew her name was Sutton.

[30:52] Dan Tracy: What'd you say? I remember Sleeping Bag Weekend. Did you ever did you guys ever talk about that?

[30:58] Gavin Creel: Yeah, later when we were doing Millie we did. Yeah, that's cool. Do you remember when you were in Surly Modern Millie? Yeah, that was awesome.

[31:06] Gavin Creel: Yeah, well, I'll get there really quickly. And then I went to both schools and I write I'll never forget I was in the school bus to go home. And I was like, I'm going to Michigan. Yeah. And I thought it was the wrong decision. I thought I'll be a better actor. I'll be smarter to go to Carnegie Mellon, but my gut is telling me I got to go here.

[31:24] Gavin Creel: Yeah, so I was the first adult decision I made. And the first semester I the whole time I thought I thought about this parallel Gavin that would be at Carnegie Mellon would actually, you know, all the stupid stuff you think it'll be he'll he'll actually be better and he'll be more famous, he'll be richer. All that stupid shit you fill your head with. And then January came around and I was in the U choir because you had to be in the U choir freshman year. And we had the rehearsal for the collage concert, which is this, for those of you who don't know, it's this thing that's like, no applause breaks, two acts. It's like a Carmina Burana on the center of the stage with the orchestra and the choir singing and then it cuts to a modern dancer on one stage, and then it cuts to the other stage, all in front of you and three little stages, one big one and then two little ones on the side and then a clarinet soloist and then it comes to the middle and there's a monologue and then there's a person singing an aria with the orchestra.

[32:17] Gavin Creel: And I at intermission of rehearsal, I went to the pay phone. Yes. And I called my parents collect. And I was like, almost crying. I was like, I made the best decision ever. This is the greatest school. My God, they're so talented. I don't know why I ever thought I should have gone anywhere else. And then I had the best college career ever.

[32:33] Dan Tracy: I love that.

[32:34] Gavin Creel: Yeah, yeah. And it's also one of those things where I grapple with even to this day. There is no parallel life. There's no parallel Gavin. There's only this one. So I have to constantly practice that.

[32:44] Dan Tracy: I had a very similar experience with Carnegie in Michigan and wanting to go to Carnegie Mellon. I didn't end up getting in, but I always thought I wanted to so badly. I visited. I loved it. I thought it would be great. And I went and I didn't get in. And I met Corey Cott when we were auditioning for Summerstock Theater, sophomore year of college. And he had gotten in. He was at Carnegie Mellon. And he told me then he's like, I really wanted to go to Michigan and I didn't get in.

[33:13] Gavin Creel: And so we met each other and he was instilled. We then were cut to we're doing Bandstand on Broadway in 2017. And he's like, I still think about like I wanted to go to Michigan so bad and I didn't get in. And I was like, dude, I wanted to go to Carnegie and I didn't get in. And so I look at him almost as like this kind of parallel. I'm like, wait a minute, you were there and I was here and we're friends now.

[33:32] Dan Tracy: We're going to always meet each other. We're still buddies. And like everything is fine. Everyone's working. Everyone has health insurance. I love that. There's no parallel universe. So the collage changed your life.

[33:46] Gavin Creel: I love that story, though, because you're both super talented and successful. And yet you both have those doubts of what would it have been? Did you audition other places too?

[33:58] Gavin Creel: Yeah, I got into Brown.

[34:03] Dan Tracy: Oh, that's tough.

[34:04] Gavin Creel: And that's where my dad went and where all of his siblings went and where my grandfather went. So a little bit of privilege there, for sure, as the kind of legacy, whatever. But it was in my hometown. And I also got into USC for acting. And then I got into Michigan for musical theater and I didn't get in anywhere else.

[34:20] Dan Tracy: Did you audition a lot of places?

[34:21] Gavin Creel: Yeah. I didn't get into any of my safety schools. You know what I mean? I only got into my top choice musical theater school.

[34:28] Dan Tracy: That's so weird. Alex was the same way.

[34:31] Gavin Creel: It's just because there's a certain amount of the inspiration that comes out of you when your eyes glitter and sparkle, when you really believe you're meant to be somewhere doing something.

[34:42] Dan Tracy: I love that.

[34:43] Gavin Creel: And I think that Wagner could see that. And he had read my essays cover to cover. And when I walked in the room, he was talking about my essays.

[34:51] Dan Tracy: Interesting.

[34:53] Gavin Creel: So he kind of had an idea of what I believed in as an artist before I even opened my mouth, which I thought was fascinating.

[35:01] Dan Tracy: Interesting concept to talk about maybe a little bit later.

[35:05] Gavin Creel: Sure.

[35:06] Dan Tracy: That acting isn't just some magical thing. It's your brain, too. Or sometimes you need to stir some magic and turn your brain off. It is that amazing balance. I would say head, heart, loins. It's like a percentage between the three spots.

[35:21] Gavin Creel: And you can hurt yourself by having too much of any of them.

[35:25] Dan Tracy: Totally.

[35:26] Gavin Creel: It's about the balance of that.

[35:27] Dan Tracy: I think Brown is an amazing school, obviously. It's a legendary school. But I'm glad you went to Michigan.

[35:33] Gavin Creel: Yeah, I don't think my parallel life that I always thought about actually was going to USC and studying acting because I always thought that I maybe should be a television film actor. And when I was in school and sophomore evals and those things, they were kind of like, should you be doing it might not be the place for you. So maybe like, you know, your skill set. And they never said it in such a way that it hurt me. It was just they were trying to be like, look, there's other things out here. And there's plenty of people who went to the school who are on TV and doing those things now. And so, like, go pursue that. And so that's why I started making films at school.

[36:10] Gavin Creel: But, you know, all that to say, if I had gone to Brown, I don't think I ever would have been an actor. I would probably be much richer in signing checks and doing something like producing or, you know, trying to work for someone.

[36:24] Dan Tracy: And miserable.

[36:25] Gavin Creel: What's his name? The guy, Oren Wolf, who produced The Band's Visit, went to Brown. So I'm sure I would have been trying to chase someone like that who kind of was in the alumni circuit or whatever.

[36:34] Dan Tracy: Still can. That's the best part. There's no parallel life. It's only this one road.

[36:37] Gavin Creel: Exactly. And we can do all of those things. And the life you choose is the right one. Just like go down.

[36:42] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. After Michigan, I went to Michigan, studied for a semester in London.

[36:48] Gavin Creel: Yeah.

[36:50] Gavin Creel: After Michigan, went to... I just started working.

[36:55] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[36:56] Gavin Creel: I did PCLO that summer, right?

[36:58] Gavin Creel: I did PCLO the summer after my junior year. I auditioned the summer after my sophomore year. Didn't get in. Also didn't get into Cedar Point Amusement Park two years in a row. Could not get a job at Cedar Point. I was so pissed.

[37:08] Dan Tracy: Guys, Gavin Creel couldn't get a job at Cedar Point.

[37:10] Gavin Creel: No!

[37:11] Dan Tracy: But that's a really good...

[37:12] Gavin Creel: I was so pissed. I was like, I want to work for America's roller coast.

[37:16] Dan Tracy: I was going to ask you later about like, you know, biggest sort of professional heartbreak. And that's what it sounds like it was.

[37:21] Gavin Creel: Absolutely. It's like, it still stings 20 some years later.

[37:26] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[37:27] Gavin Creel: I wanted to just, I just wanted to get to cut the lines at the roller coaster.

[37:31] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[37:32] Gavin Creel: Obviously.

[37:33] Dan Tracy: So you did some summer stock and then you moved to the city.

[37:35] Gavin Creel: I did. I got my equity card at Pittsburgh Civic Light Opera. I came to the city and the weird thing is, is I, while I was here the first semester, I, I made a fake resume. I went to Kinko's and like got on with that little paperclip man who's like, hi, can I help you? And I was like, ah, and I ran away from the Kinko's because I didn't understand what he was doing. And then I went and auditioned, auditioned. I went and just made up a fake resume on a friend's computer and used all friends of mine, um, old voice teachers and as references to restaurants that I'd never worked at.

[38:08] Dan Tracy: Awesome.

[38:09] Gavin Creel: And then, uh, I was living in Williamsburg at the time and I knew I wanted to be off the L so I wouldn't have to, and I, so I looked at City Crab and Republic, the noodle shop, which is where I got a job and I trained for a day. And that night I got home, I got the phone call that I got fame, the musical. So I called them and said, I'm not coming in for training tomorrow. And then I started rehearsals like about a month later in October. And then we went up to, that was really fun.

[38:37] Dan Tracy: Did you get an agent at a showcase?

[38:38] Gavin Creel: I did. I got, um, I was with, um, uh, boutique agency.

[39:15] Gavin Creel: I interviewed with them and they signed me. But then I was like, I wasn't getting sent out on anything. So I was like, I got backstage the paper and like went through and there was a Nick Piazza and famed the national tour. And I thought a national tour. He's Italian. I probably won't get cast because I'm, you know, whitey, whiter, white. It's not interesting at all. And then I went into the audition and got called back and ended up getting the job. And it was, you know, Fame is its own troubled thing. It may not be the most perfectly written thing ever. But I was with really talented actors and actresses, all young, all untried. And a great producer, Rich Martini, who was kind to us, gave me an unsolicited raise at one point.

Like, I didn't even know that's not done, really. You have to, you know. And then I just did it for a year. And then at the end of that year, I was they wanted me to sign another six months. And I wasn't really happy anymore. Yeah. And I called Linda Goodrich and I said, I don't know what to do. And she said, I'm gonna tell you this. You're going to be unemployed for four months when you get back. Just just as a bank on at least four months. No bites. Do you want to wait another six months and then four months? So you really don't get maybe started till 10 months from now. Right. Or do you want to just rip the bandaid off and get back? And I was like, I want to rip the bandaid off. So I came back and almost four months to the day until my next job.

I did Honk, the musical, the American premiere of Honk, played at Duck. Downtown? Yeah. It wasn't in New York. It was the Nyack Theater in the Helen Hayes Theater in Nyack, New York. Basically like a theater in a mini mall. Drove my own van. I was the man who drove the van and picked everybody up. And it was, you know, I tell students now when I teach, I'm like, there's a real. There's more of a sense of, of, well, do I want to do that that I did not have? I can guarantee you I didn't have it. It was like, I got to work. I want to meet people. And I think maybe that's crept in somehow now in a way of like, well, I don't want to do that. What's that going to do for me? And I do believe work begets work.

And I think the best advice I can give to young people who are like when I get to the city is say yes to everything. I don't care if you think it's going to be good or not. Like I did a show that not very many people saw called The Flood, which I thought had really good music and stuff. I sang Highway Miles for my Michigan for my college audition. I still give it to students and I still send that demo that you made to people. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I've heard that millions of times. Yeah. And Pete Mills is a fantastic writer. Yes. So smart. I would never have known him because he hasn't had like a big Broadway hit yet. But I know who he is and I trust his writing. And I'm interested when Pete Mills says I'm doing something and I'll go see it if I can.

But there was like a thing. There's like I don't know. I just try to say just go do it because this I'll do this as quick as I can. I was sitting at my friend's house on Ninth Avenue and 52nd. He had this busted, weird little one bedroom. It looked like a sauna inside. Everything was wood. And I'm sitting at the on the couch like you guys are. And he was sitting in this chair and I look and there's a piece of paper on the thing and it says NYU. Oh, what's this? Oh, read that if you want. You should do that if you want. And it was just a form letter. I don't know how he got it. But if you're interested, put your name in the Graduate Musical Theater writing hamper. They always need people to come and sing their songs.

It's not about you. It's about them. Right. I was like, well, I'm not doing anything. I'm back in the city from Fame. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I called Marie Costanza at NYU Graduate Musical Theater writing. She's probably still there. And they said, yeah, come down on this day. We're doing and it's just a file of people coming in, singing a song. Great. Thank you. Great. Thank you. Great. Thank you. Another way that's done. And then I get a call a little bit later and they say, oh, yeah, there's a musical. Pete Mills. It's called The Flood. And I'm like, the what? So I go in, I sing for Pete Mills and Karl Reichel, who had not yet started the Prospect Theater Company, which is almost 20 years old now.

And it was just them and Marie Costanza at a carpeted tiny room and an electric keyboard. And I sang. Great. Can you read these signs? Okay, great. Bye. Thanks. And then I got a call that I got it. And it's a workshop. It's 20 people in the room after we did two weeks of rehearsal. They were just there. It was a tiny room. We did it. Stan's left. And then we leave. And then all the people stay and work with Pete. It's all about Pete in the writing piece. Done. That's it. And then I find out that he got selected for the ASCAP night, which is Stephen Schwartz hosts the ASCAP night once a month. And he has a fellow composer from the industry that sits next to him and critiques the writing. I'm like, they want us to do it.

And would you sing Highway Miles? And we're going to have the cast there and we'll do some of the songs. We were like, oh, my God, how cool. Stephen Schwartz, Stephen Schwartz. You know, pretty wicked, right? Yeah, exactly. Right. Wicked didn't exist. Right. And then he goes, I told you the story. So then so then we go and it's a room full of people and it's in the Upper West Side in the ASCAP building. And I'm like and there's like cookies and crudités. And I'm like, what's serious? There's food and it's in the evening on like a Tuesday or something. And they're on a raised platform behind him are two seats. And then Stephen Schwartz walks in and sits down. I'm like, fuck, this is a big deal for us.

And I'm nervous and we're up and this is not about us. And then his guest composer comes in and guess who it was? Stephen Sondheim. Fucking Stephen Sondheim. It was Stephen Sondheim. And I'm like, what is happening? It was unbelievable. Then we're like, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK. We sing. We do our thing. There's comments to Pete from these two men. We go eat some stale cookies and we leave. And then I get a call a week later from Duva Flack saying, we have an offer for you. And I was like, an offer? Do I have to audition? No, it's just a straight offer for a new workshop of a musical called Wicked. Stephen Schwartz thinks you would be great for the role of Boq. I'm like, Stephen Schwartz knows who I am.

He loves you in the thing and he wants to offer you this role. They're doing a reading of this new musical called Wicked. And I did two readings of Wicked and met Adina and Kristen. And Kristen used to have these lines, do you see that unusually tall munchkin over there? And the whole joke is that I was like a beanpole and I'm like, I'm a munchkin. And then I met Mark Platt and Mark Platt ran Hollywood for years and Universal Studios. And I thought, where is my life? What is my life? This is so cool. And I got flown out to L.A. to do the L.A. reading on a soundstage and Barry Diller is sitting in the front row. Wow. And all these people are there and I'm staying at this beautiful hotel and I had a rental car and I thought I was fancy.

I was Rav4. You're like 24. What's that? You're like 24. I'm 22. Four. I was 24. 24. I was 24. Yeah. And then I come back and I knew and then I auditioned for Thoroughly Modern Millie in there somewhere. And I did five auditions and the last one was a reading with Sutton at the audition. And I ended up getting the job. And then I knew I was going to be doing Millie. So there was no chance I was going to be able to do Wicked. But I had met all these people and I met Joe. I met Joe Mantello. Right. And Lisa Luguio, who's the resident director. And I just and then I and then I was at a time where I was ready to move on to a new agency. And I didn't feel comfortable where I was. And I wanted to find something new.

And I was terrified. I was 24. And then Mark said, you have to clean up your house before you move. And so I had excuse me, I had to go and sort of had that meeting and it was uncomfortable and they were upset. And I was like, it's just what I need to do. Something I never really said before. And then Mark took gave me some meetings and I met with William Morris and I was in their lobby was bigger than the entire agency that I'd been with. And I met them. And then that night I got back to this is why I was doing Millie. And I got a little thing on the on the thing and it said, we'd like to represent you. And all all of that is to say the longest story ever. I said it was gonna be short. Sorry.

No. Was because I said yes to a piece of paper on a coffee table in a sauna apartment. Do you know what I mean? Oh, yeah. It goes all the way back to that. And if you trace anything, there is no like there's no like aha moment. There are very few aha moments. It's really easy to say you were discovered in Millie. I said, no, I was discovered in that apartment with that piece of paper. I that's those are my favorite stories. When is it? Because everybody always says that. Oh, he just, you know, you know, was plucked out of this and plucked it. You know, it's like, no, no, no. Like, let's really trace it back to like where somebody started. And then, yes, you were nominated for a Tony Award when you were like 24, 25.

But it started so much farther back. And it started with no money and no prospects and nothing flashy. And no money after two Broadway shows and a Tony nomination. That's something that you talk about. It wasn't until you got into Mormon that you felt like comfortable. Mary Poppins was the first time. When I went to London, I went, you are not going to be poor anymore. And that means you have to restructure the way you save. You have to restructure the way you spend and you need to. You're here in London. You have no expenses except for your U.K. cell phone because Disney and Cameron McIntosh. Because of equity. Thank God for equity. You have to be put up and paid. You need an apartment. And you get per diem.

So I really didn't have to pay for food or housing. I had to pay. And I got a sub letter from my little 200 square foot studio in midtown Manhattan that I had. So I was like, save your money. And people ask, what's the best advice when you come to New York? Learn how to save your money. Saving and learn how to measure your spending. Because if you can do that, then you can have a little bit of luxury. Then you can go, I don't think I want to do that job because I saved this much money. I can pay my bills. I'm going to wait another week or two. Okay, I need money now. I'm going to do that job where I have to play Barney in Barney the Musical. And it will be awesome. And you'll meet amazing, talented people.

That was a really long story. I'm sorry. There's no way to edit that. That's such a good story. No, that was amazing. There's nothing of that being removed. Everything about that was perfect. I hope I'm boring people. That was awesome. Not at all. No, but for a second. So two Broadway shows and a Tony nominee and you're broke. And I was broke. My parents bought me a car, in quotes. I'm putting that. Because they bought my sister a Honda Civic for $5,000 as a gift. And my parents are beautifully, the most generous people ever. Solidly middle class. In the best way. Like we never wanted for anything. We had beautiful things. But we were not super wealthy. It wasn't what we were. But they knew how to save.

And they bought my sister a car to help her with her life. And then when my next sister needed a car, Heather sold her that car. But my parents gave her $5,000 plus interest from inflation. So that was fair. And then when they got to me, they gave me, I think it was $5,600. Or $6,000. Something like that. Because they knew, you're in New York City. And you're broke. And we bought your sister's car. And what's fair is, but this is all you're getting. And I was like, oh my God, you're saving me. I can eat. And I had been nominated for a Tony. And I was like, what's happening? And then I went out to L.A. to do pilot season. Which was like a hot turd on a hot stone. Did not go well. And then I came back.

And I had that $5,000 they gave me right before my 30th birthday. No money. No prospects. And only Mary Poppins was auditioning. And I was like, I have to get this job. I know I can play this part. And I had four auditions. The last day was on my birthday. I think it was Tara Reuven. She's a casting director. And she brought me a cupcake on my birthday. I'm in the lobby with Richard Eyre. And James Powell, the resident director. And Ashley Brown and me. That's it. And we're reading scenes. They're handing me new scenes. That's great, Kevin. Not giving me any no's. And they're working with her. And I'm like, I'm crushing this. I'm getting this job. I get home. You didn't get it. And I'm like, I'm broke.

There's nothing else in the horizon. This was for Mary Poppins Broadway? Yeah. Got it. That was on a Thursday. I found out Saturday. I was in Michigan raking leaves. And I was like, crap. Okay. I just have to go back to New York now. Because I'm not going back to L.A. I literally have $5,600. That's it. I have no prospects. I don't know what's coming. And I got a call on Monday. And they said, would you be interested in going to London to do the part?

[51:39] Gavin Creel: Wait, I'm not old enough or British enough to do it on New York. That was the things they said. They just needed somebody. They're going to use Gavin Lee. He's going to come here. He's the narrator of the show. They're just all British and they want a British voice. I totally get it. Totally. And you're going to go to London. I was like, how am I? I'm in America. And they were right, because being in a British company, you just sort of get enveloped into it. The accent was 90,000 times better, I think, than probably I could ever done in New York, because I'm surrounded. I'm hearing it all the time. Totally. The show was already running. They didn't have the pressure of having to open it. I got it and it changed my life.

That's amazing. I just had a new lease on musical theater. I was so burnt out. I thought I went there and I thought, I mean, this will be my last show and then I'm going to leave the business because this isn't fun anymore and I'm not enjoying it and I'm broke and I'm 30. And then I just started to get the fire back thanks to that show. And I had Godspell and Catch Me If You Can were the two auditions right when I got back. And I was like, I want to do Catch Me If You Can. I want that part so bad. And Godspell was like, OK. And I was nervous because you had to make this parable and had to do improv and I hate improv. It's gross. It makes me so nervous. And I got Godspell and I didn't get Catch Me If You Can.

And then Godspell, I waited around for nine months and then it didn't happen. It got canceled because of the economic. Somebody pulled out. And I was becoming broke again. And like, I didn't audition for West Side Story. I didn't audition for all these other shows that were coming because I knew I was doing Godspell. I waited for nine months. And that was in October. No, that was in August that I found out it wasn't going. No prospects. I got a dog. What year was this?

[53:16] Joe Carroll: 2008.

[53:17] Gavin Creel: OK. Yeah, 2008. I got a dog. I was like, fuck it, I'm getting a dog. I got the dog and then I found out that Jonathan Groff wasn't going to do the run in Hair that he did in the park. And I called my agent. I was like, I want to audition for this. I want to audition for the show. And he's like, no, Christopher Hankey probably is going to do it. And Chris's schedule I don't think was available. So he couldn't do it. Oh, yeah, they'll see you. And I went in and I was I was 22 again. I was like, because of all that, I was humbled because there's a lot of ego that comes along. You nominated for Tony award and you've been on Broadway twice. And I don't want to I don't know if I want to replace, you know, these guys are both younger than me and hipper and they're the new hot things.

And I just felt so I wasn't that there was no ego at all. I was like, I need a job. I need health insurance. Yeah. Yeah. I need Hair. And there was all these articles in The Times. Hair can't get its capitalization. It's never going to happen. Godspell had failed. Yeah. Hair is going to fail, too. And I don't fucking care. Just give me the audition. Please, please. I got in the room. All I ever needed was the music in the mirror. Exactly. To smoke pot with you and have orgies. Yes. Orgies on stage with Will and Casey. Thank you. You were so good in that show. It would change. Thank you. I'm so proud that people ask what was the show? I was definitely like arm in arm with you during the finale one day.

[54:39] Joe Carroll: Were we dancing?

[54:40] Gavin Creel: Yeah. That was before I got in Michigan. That was when I met you the very first time I had sent you a message. I was a freshman at Michigan and I sent you a message like, I'm coming to see the show. And you very sweetly responded back because I was in Mel's studio at the time. So I wasn't like a total crazy person, but I was mostly a crazy person. I wore my Michigan musical theater shirt under a button button up, came on stage and danced with everybody. And that was when I like shook your hand and I was like, I'm in Mel's studio. I'm a freshman in Michigan. And you were very nice, very tired and like, oh, great to meet you. Sweating, you know, like just like, yeah, I was like that. I came back to my, you know, saw my mom outside. I was like, mom, I met him. I met Gavin. He was so nice.

[55:23] Joe Carroll: Oh good. I wasn't like, great, please. I'm going to barf on you.

[55:29] Gavin Creel: That show was just so I love that. I love that you loved it. It's I hope heaven is I get to say hi to all the people I love. And then they escort me to the Al Hirschfeld and everyone's there because it was the greatest theatrical experience of my life I've had. And I've had awesome experiences like awesome. But that one I have not I have not I don't know that I ever will match that.

[56:08] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Why do you think that is?

[56:09] Gavin Creel: Because of where I my life sure. And the show. Same way that Cornelius Hackle winning the Tony, all that stuff. It was just me and the part lined up perfectly. Right. Totally. It wasn't it wasn't about me being better than anybody else or. Because I played I played Kodai the season before. I did. I worked as hard as I knew how to. I played a supporting part in a musical that both were up for the Tony Awards the same year in 1964. And Jack Cassidy beat Charles Nelson Reilly for the Tony. And Jack Cassidy played Kodai and Charles Nelson Reilly played Cornelius. That's the next year I did. And I didn't get nominated for anything in that. It was the Hamiltonies and everything. So right. People can say, oh, you didn't know because I said no. It just wasn't my it wasn't the right match up a part in person.

I loved it. I did the best work I knew how. I always thought there was someone else that could have done it way better than me. But it was like, OK, moving on. And then the next year I worked as hard as I knew how and was nervous the whole time of like, I just want all this awards bullshit to be out over with because I'm probably not going to get any of the recognition again because I don't consider myself like a flashy performer. I'm not I don't I don't do I don't think that I do anything that's like, wow. It's like I kind of just I we were talking about Casey Levy. Like I see myself as. I don't know, I can't see I can't be objective about myself. I don't I don't like when we were here.

[57:39] Joe Carroll: Yeah, I can tell you how.

[57:40] Gavin Creel: Like when I was in, do we have twenty five minutes? No, no, no. When I was in Hair, for example, I was with Casey, Will, Will Swenson, Casey Levy and like this old. Yeah. Yeah. Triumvirate. Three Musketeers. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel I fell somewhere in between Casey and Casey would come in. You should have been there, you know, like and do the thing about and then she would sing how easy to be hard. And there was such stillness and and simplicity. It's not flashy. She's not a flashy. I mean, her voice is one of the greatest voices ever. Right. But to me, what her power is, her quiet, fierce stillness. And there's we need more of that on Broadway. I think Will's power is explosive energy. And he's like he's like a bonfire of energy and wild and dangerous and creative and sexy and passionate.

And I and I sort of fall somewhere in between, I think. And I anyway, Hair broke the fourth wall in every way, it forced me to crawl into the audience literally and figuratively. It forced me to drop all of my insecurities as an actor and as a person, I came out of the closet professionally to a publication which everybody I loved knew I was gay. But until you do it, I'm learning until you do it professionally. It's not official news and it's nonsense that there's even such a thing. It changes now. There was no social media then. So I think I mean, it was only 10 years ago, but more than that, but it was a completely different time and time. Yeah, we were fighting for marriage equality. And it was until seven, eight, six years later that we got it.

And I thought it was going to be 30 years from that time. So but there was. It was just something we marched on Washington, we sent buses of people, we started Broadway Impact, which is mobilizing the theater community for marriage equality that Rory O'Malley and Jenny Canellos and I did. And we helped organize it, but it was the entire theater community that came together for that. Yeah, it just it was our imitating life. It all lined up.

[59:40] Joe Carroll: Yeah. And you just pray. Have you have you experienced places where so far because you guys are going to have long, luscious careers, but what's the one so far for each of you?

[59:51] Gavin Creel: Here he goes again. I don't want to. Well, no. Yeah. Go ahead. We have talked about this now in several of our last interviews, this being privately the idea of alignment, because like often it's not about being desperate enough to have the job, but it's about like being the right person for the job in the moment, you know, and having the courage to believe that. Right. It's hard. Right. And believe it. Yeah. And some some jobs, you know, my friend Carson Higgins, who listens to the show, said, says all the time, Carson, you Gavin. Hi, Carson. He says all the time, you don't get 100 percent of the jobs you're not going to get.

[1:00:35] Joe Carroll: Wait, so that don't you don't get 100 percent of the jobs you're not going to get because like you're either going to get a job or you're not and you have no control over it. And so the jobs you don't get, you don't get they're not meant for you.

[1:00:47] Gavin Creel: Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of the logic doesn't isn't really there on purpose. Alex Fink says nothing will pass you by this, you know, which is a much simpler way. But like I totally Carson, we love you, Carson. Yeah. Yeah. Come on, cut some words. Put the bone down.

[1:01:03] Joe Carroll: Well, we could sit here and talk with you all afternoon. I'm sorry. Let's get a couple more. I want to get a couple more.

[1:01:08] Gavin Creel: Yeah. But one one thing that I remember happening when when we first worked together in Michigan my senior year, you were a voice teacher. We talked about that at the beginning. Changed my voice, changed my life. But there was a job happening while you were teaching in Michigan and you took us out for dinner and you said something really awesome just happened. And I can't tell you what it is. And it's going to be this huge thing. But like, I can't talk about it. And that's such a thing that happens in the entertainment industry, you know, whatever. And it was the Book of Mormon.

[1:01:43] Joe Carroll: Was it really?

[1:01:44] Gavin Creel: Yeah. That was the thing you ended up. Then that process was solidified that you were going to take it and open it in London. Yeah, that was how I think it had just sort of been confirmed that semester. So we didn't know at the time that that's what it was. But how did that come and how did that happen?

[1:02:00] Gavin Creel: It was it was like the most amazing lesson in ego because I had immense fear because I saw Andrew and I've known each other for 20 years. And Andrew watched and lifted me while my star, whatever you want to call it, was rising. And I was in Millie and then other shows full well knowing we shared a shared a wall like like his apartment. His studio was on the other side of my wall. Oh, my God. Like we lived together for years and like socialize together. He opened my mind up in so many ways that I'm so grateful for and continue to be grateful for. But he wasn't Andrew Rannells yet. He was he'd done some really good jobs, but he replaced in Jersey Boys and Larkin and Hairspray. Yeah. But I saw him do that.

I went, oh, shit. And everybody, the world went, oh, shit. Right. Yeah. And then he became a huge it was the star making moment for his life that sent him on this amazing trajectory. And my ego was like they called and said they were they want to know the national tour. And I just felt old and and replacement. Yeah. I went, oh, fuck. I want to originate a role on Broadway in a new show. And I just don't think I can do that. It was part ego because I didn't I didn't feel comfortable replacing my friend because, A, I was embarrassed, honestly. And B, I was scared because I didn't want to step into any area of his because he'd been so supportive of me. And then it went away. The audition went away.

And I went, OK, cool. I passed on the audition. And then I was doing workshops of my friend of mine was writing musical. I was doing workshops of Flashdance, the musical. My buddy, Robbie, who I wrote my first two records with. Yeah. I think he's a fucking genius songwriter. And I I knew Flashdance was maybe a tricky project because I did Fame. And I know sometimes people act with vitriol towards certain movies. And but I was loving being in the room with my friend who was going to create something for the first time. And they kept including me in the workshops. And I was talking like a creator. I would speak up in ways that I was like, I don't understand why this is happening. And what if we did?

And Robbie would ask me, we would sort of he wrote all the songs. We were working together. And I was like, oh, this is what it is to be creative and part of the creative process. I want to do this, which later leads to me writing my own piece. But but then they came back and they said, they're just going to offer you the part. And I was like, how does Scott Rudin wants you for the part? I was like, how does Scott Rudin know who I am?

[1:04:35] Gavin Creel: Yeah, they were like, we can't find the right person for this. It's a big deal because we don't know. They didn't know if Book of Mormon was going to work outside of New York City, because it was so controversial. And they didn't want it to be, because they wanted, I don't know, what I was told was that they wanted to be able to know it wasn't just because of the casting, they could trust the people in the parts. And he said, who can we trust? And Casey said my name. He said, that's who we need to get for the part. And then they gave me an offer that I couldn't refuse. And I told Robbie, and he understood. And it was the hardest job I've ever done in my life. That part is... because it's so high.

It is so relentless. Always there. You're on stage a ton. You're talking, you're yelling, and you're high pitched. And they want it to, you know, yes, I'm young. I was 36, playing a 19-year-old. And I did the tour, I was hired for the tour for a year. And then while I was about two months into the tour, they said, we want to know if you'd come and originate the role in London. And I'd done Mary Poppins and Hair at that point. And I went, yeah, I think I would do that. Because that would give me a chance to originate what I could, I could feel a little piece of what Andrew felt with people who were, and it was truly magical. That said, three and a half years, I did it. And it put like 10 years on my life.

My voice, my stress, I don't remember having this much stress around singing. And I have PTSD now. And it's like, calm down, you're fine. You can do this. And my getting older, my voice is changing. And I'm thinking, oh, there goes my career. And it's like, you're allowed to evolve as a singer, you're allowed to find new colors, you don't have to sing the high E or high B flat or the high A even anymore. But you do have to tell the story. And you do have to keep it simple. And trust that you are enough. It's all the stuff I tell students when I'm teaching.

[1:06:24] Dan Tracy: Totally. That is so wonderful. And like London in general, I mean, now you're going back to do Waitress.

[1:06:29] Gavin Creel: Yeah, it's like my second home.

[1:06:30] Dan Tracy: Yeah. And I remember, do you remember, just again, to make it about me, when I ran into you on the street outside of Passion?

[1:06:36] Gavin Creel: Yeah, I was going to sit down at my warehouse.

[1:06:37] Dan Tracy: Yeah, you were, you had seen your friend in Passion, and you were standing on the street, and I was with my friend. I was like, is that Gavin Creel? It was like, you were seeing this thing, we saw you play a pub in London. You know, not a pub, it was like a total music venue. Did that town to you? Does it mean, is London like...

[1:06:53] Gavin Creel: Second home.

[1:06:53] Dan Tracy: Second home.

[1:06:54] Gavin Creel: Yeah. I trust the people. I trust the art they're making. I wish they paid their people more money, but that's not the model over there. And everybody needs to join the union on the West End. They're never going to be strong unless they have better membership. It's the thing that keeps our negotiations powerful is that you can't work on the, you don't have to be in the union to work on the West End.

[1:07:13] Dan Tracy: Interesting.

[1:07:14] Gavin Creel: But I love, there's a, British people, I think, are sometimes viewed as standoffish or a little cold, polite, but cold. Whereas Americans are warm and doors open. But I think that British people, once their door is open, it is bolted open. Whereas it's a swinging door in America. Like, oh, we're in, you're out, you're in, you're out. We're like, oh, that's too long. And I love it because it makes things immediately accessible. But you don't always know where you stand with us sometimes. We can be wishy-washy. We're like, oh yeah, we love you. We love you so much. You're amazing. You're amazing. And over there you have to work a little harder, including the audiences. The audiences are, sometimes they listen a lot more than the end. Their minds are blown. You're like, okay, okay. I see. I hear you. You're listening.

[1:08:03] Dan Tracy: I love that.

[1:08:04] Gavin Creel: Yeah. I normally ask a question about what would you tell a 14-year-old version of Gavin? However, I feel like we've done that a lot.

[1:08:10] Gavin Creel: You're gay. You're so gay. And it's okay to be gay. That's what I would say.

[1:08:20] Dan Tracy: You've achieved so much. And it's a good reminder to Joe and I to hear that along the way, there have been these peaks and valleys where you were achieving a lot and still felt like there was so much that was missing, which is just a good reminder for anyone in this business. But what do you want your legacy to be? Less grandiose, maybe.

[1:08:45] Gavin Creel: I love that. Where are you trying to go?

[1:08:47] Gavin Creel: It's a good question for all of us to think about. And it's something, I'm 44 next year, and it's something, I'm going to die. Do you know what I mean? It's something I think about. I go, my parents are still living and they're healthy, but God willing, they will not put me in the ground. And I think about it all the time. I will not be afraid of it. And I think about legacy. Now that I'm in my 40s, I think, I think it's okay for me to start thinking about what is that. So I thank you, Dan, for this question. And now I shall ponder. The quick answer, I think, that came into my head that if I had more time, I might change, but is I now want to create, I want to make, and I also want to make spaces.

I want to find the job that pays me well and gives me health insurance where I can do the thing that is my superpower, better than my voice, better than my acting, better than I think my superpower is making people feel possible. I think when people are with me, they leave and they go, I want to do that. That's something that I love doing more than anything in the world. Like what's going on with you guys? That's why I wanted to be here. I'm like, they're so cool. They started a podcast. A, I love talking about myself. And B, how fucking advantageous and curious and tenacious to do this and to trust creating content, saying something. Connection is all we have. So you're connecting with people who, it could be really easy for you to go, no one's listening.

I've made three records now that, I don't know, 16 people bought. And I go, I appreciate it. You're so kind, but I'm proud of what I'm writing and I can look back. We're going to do a, I can't wait. Maybe you guys will come sing it with me. We're going to do a 15th anniversary concert of Good Time Nation, my first record. We're going to do a sick band. We're going to great house. And I'm going to go, anybody out there who's a fan come and maybe like, we'll come up and I'll put you guys on, like sing with me on a couple of tunes or something. It would be so fun, but I just want.

[1:11:02] Dan Tracy: Such a good idea.

[1:11:03] Gavin Creel: I just want to like, let's revisit what we made when I was 27 years old and wanted to rule the world.

[1:11:08] Dan Tracy: Hair down to your shoulders. It's still, when you type your name into Google, that picture still pops up.

[1:11:12] Gavin Creel: It's still crazy. I was, and that was all about me not wanting to be a musical theater person. I didn't want people to cast me as, decide. So I kept doing things to my appearance and bleaching my hair, growing it out or shaving it off because I just, I'm allergic to people deciding who I am for me. And I'm back there again. Now I'm trying to reclaim that and go, I don't want to do things I don't want to do. That's a luxury. I think I have now that I'm in my forties. You don't have it in your twenties. I think in your twenties just work.

[1:11:40] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[1:11:41] Gavin Creel: So my legacy would be, I want to find the job where I can make people feel possible. I don't know what that means.

[1:11:49] Joe Carroll: I mean, you just, you know, I would be remiss not to say this. You do that to every single person that you encounter. And I stand by everyone listening to this, that not only are you one of the most talented people in the business, but you have one of the brightest and most important um, persons in any building. And like what you do to a building is magic. The four weeks that you and Sarah, Sarah is the same way. The four weeks that you guys were in, in that building were, were the four greatest weeks for almost every single person in there. It was magic. I mean, from start to finish, and that was totally unexpected.

[1:12:30] Gavin Creel: Thank you, by the way. I really appreciate that. But that time in Waitress, the fact that I get to go and do it again, my only sadness is that I won't be going back to that building with those people.

[1:12:41] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[1:12:41] Gavin Creel: My new happiness will be she and I will get to hopefully go and have a really beautiful time and meet a pile of people that I didn't know.

[1:12:50] Joe Carroll: Exactly.

[1:12:50] Gavin Creel: You know, I didn't really get to know you until then.

[1:12:53] Joe Carroll: Right.

[1:12:53] Gavin Creel: I knew of you.

[1:12:54] Joe Carroll: Right.

[1:12:54] Gavin Creel: But, but that's the beauty of what we get to do. That's the privilege of being in the theater. Because unlike film and TV, and I've only filmed one pilot in my life and it was stressful the whole time, but and it didn't go. And it was this year. And it's pretty good. Maybe I'll leak it online and everyone can watch it.

[1:13:14] Joe Carroll: Yeah. Yeah. I know what it is, but we won't, we don't have to talk about it.

[1:13:17] Gavin Creel: Yeah. And you can talk about it. It was called Forefathers.

[1:13:20] Joe Carroll: Forefathers and you and Cheyenne Jackson play two gay dads that live across the street from each other, raising the same kids. Like who didn't want to see that? We should start a petition.

[1:13:27] Gavin Creel: It was such a good, it was such a good pilot. I was really proud of it. And I thought it was, you know, really neat, but, um, um, uh, shoot. Oh, in live theater, because it's live, because you can't manufacture it in a, in post and you can't fix things. You can go through a process and work really hard and then give it.

[1:13:52] Gavin Creel: And it's not yours.

[1:13:53] Joe Carroll: It's not yours anymore. Yeah. And then you hope that people receive it and we get the, I wish every human being in the world at the end of every day of work got 1500 people that stood up and applauded for them because it is, it is, it is part of the reason why I want to keep doing it knowing I have made a difference and how quiet lives of quiet desperation throw or whatever. I think it is. I think, but how many people live lives of quiet desperation? Like how many people out there hearts are heavy because no one's saying to them, you matter and I thank you. And I see you and we get that. Yeah. Right. And, and even if we're like, oh, I'm so tired and my voice is busted river. We bow and they go, I see you.

Oh God, do I see you? And out the stage door, I saw you in Waitress. I saw you go on as Dr. Pomatter, Dan. And I saw you as Hans, Hans in Frozen and once in advance to all of it, we get that. And we can't forget what a privilege that is. And that's why, when I go out, I try to make that, I know you do it too. Look, eye contact and go, I see, I see you too. Right. And I just want to say that you, this is cheesy, but I love a little cheese. You, I think single-handedly inspired our generation of musical theater singers of guys that this is the voice that we want to, that we look up to that we want to sound like that. We want, we all want it to be exactly like you from Millie on through. And so, and we, I still want to be like you and I can't believe that she came to Dan's living room and talk to us. And I will just, just to piggyback on that, along with what I was saying just a second ago is like, now, not only do I want to sing like you and act like you, but I want to be like you.

[1:16:00] Gavin Creel: Okay. But, but it's, you know, and it's a, it's a solid reminder just to, it's to be kind and to see people and to be compassionate.

[1:16:05] Gavin Creel: Back at you. Thank you.

[1:16:07] Joe Carroll: The reflection and now, now once we're not students anymore, so we're peers and we're, we're on the same plane. When I see, you have to know when I look to you, when I see you acting honorably and being kind in the business, my ego gets bigger because I'm like, I was, I was cool with those dudes. You know what I mean? With sure. Like those are people who represent a piece of me out in the world. It's the, the inverse is also true. When I see people that I love and I see them acting poorly, it causes me to want to snip that. I don't want possession of that anymore. Right? So when I see you act well and sing well, but be well, just know you're inflating my ego because you're part of me. You know what I mean?

[1:16:37] Gavin Creel: Yeah. So I appreciate it. I'm, I'm, I'm grateful to have been here and I hope there's some stuff in there you can use. I think there's plenty. I would have listened to it. Jesus Christ.

[1:16:47] Dan Tracy: Thank you, buddy. Thank you so much, Gavin. Oh my God. So much fun.