This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Max Martin: Welcome to the & Juliet Podcast. In today's episode, & Juliet composer Max Martin talks to Sara Bareilles about the intersection of pop music and musical theater. My questions for Max, coming to this as just a longtime fan, my very first love was musical theater and then I took a left turn into, you know, the music industry as a pop artist and Max Martin is pretty much the gold standard of pop songwriters. He's made, I don't need to tell you this, but for anyone listening, he has made every song you love. Sorry, you can just bleep that, every song you love has come from this man. It's just unbelievable and his collaboration with these extraordinary artists. So it was so much fun to go sort of swimming through your own nostalgia in this new contemporary but not contemporary way.

It was just a really unique blend of storytelling and that wonderful feeling you get from listening to songs you love but told in a new way and on new voices and I was just blown away by the orchestrations. My friend Bill Sherman also worked on the show, like I just have a lot of friends who were such a huge part of this, but I guess my big question was why? Why now? Why these songs? Why, you know, what made you want to say yes to doing this massive project?

[1:38] Max Martin: You know it's, well thank you for saying that. That was, I'm blushing right now. It was actually, it came from my, actually my wife came up with the original idea of, you know, trying to do a musical based on the songs that I've been part of many years ago. You know, and we came into this, we were very naive and as you know, you started doing musicals too, so you know probably as well as I do how you have this idea of what it's going to be, we had no idea. I always say if I knew how hard it was going to be I wouldn't have said yes.

[2:23] Sara Bareilles: You know what? I'm with you on that one.

[2:29] Max Martin: Yeah, like my naivete was a part of why. I'm glad I didn't know going into it. Right, but that goes back to also getting into music in general. When you start you have no idea, you know, you just come in with lots of love for the art and everything that comes with it you know nothing about. And yeah, it's probably too, you know, helps you to continue because if you know all the obstacles and all the, I don't know, naysayers and the doubt and all that stuff and the self-hate and insecurities that comes along with it, you probably wouldn't do it. But it was kind of the same thing with this. I guess, you know, it was the time, this is probably around 2010, I would say. You know, I've been going for, at that point, maybe for 20 years doing this.

When she said, like, hey, well, wouldn't that be fun to try to do something different? And we were like, cool, let's do it. And we started talking to people and went around and saw some, you know, interesting script ideas and stuff like that. And then we never really found anything. And then it wasn't until we met Tim Headington and Teresa Page where we kind of, that's when we kind of started for real. Yeah. But the reason, the reason why was really to, like, just like, hey, let's do something different. Not knowing that it would take up all of my time forever.

[3:50] Sara Bareilles: Well, I think I'm, you know, one of many people who are so glad that you didn't know, you know, and so you said yes to going down this road because I think theatre is such a, I mean, it's such a vital part of the arts community. And having, did you have a relationship to musical theatre, like, growing up? Did you listen to cast albums or see shows?

[4:15] Max Martin: I mean, not really. I mean, my parents probably had a few cast albums at home that you would listen to. But, and I've said this before, I probably, you know, I probably seen three or four musicals in my life. But I kind of realized quickly that I fell in love with the whole idea of, because I kind of feel like the whole, the telling story on stage with an audience is kind of the ultimate way of telling a story. So, yeah. And I found that going into this process without knowing that much, also, you know, sometimes it's good to have an idiot in the room who, like, asks these questions that are stupid. But sometimes you ask the right question, and maybe you come in from a different angle and find solutions that maybe, you know, if everyone's sort of seasoned, and I've seen this in my day job as well, where, you know, the best idea can come from the, you know, the least experienced person in the room.

[5:16] Sara Bareilles: It makes me think about sometimes I think that person who has the least experience is like the best conduit to the audience, because there's sometimes the bridge towards, you know, the psyche of the person who's coming in to just receive whatever is being created. And so I think it's really easy to get bogged down in the minutia of how to build the Lego structure, and forget that if the person in the room, if all of the nuance is lost on the person of the room, then it might not have been that intelligent in the first place.

[5:52] Max Martin: Yeah, no, no, I'm with you. And a lot of, you know, in my music making, I'd like to, I actually love when it's super clear. And, and, you know, I don't like when it goes over, you know, over your head and all that stuff. And, you know, there's so many people, as you know, involved in this was just, I mean, this, not just me. But from the music standpoint, with together with Bill, and with Dominic, and, you know, creating this, with having me as the sort of naive, like, hey, why can't we have 808s? You know what I mean? Like, why can't, why can't we have a sidechain on the bass? So the kick drum, you know, and all that stuff, because I come from the studio world, but everything is super controlled, and you have so much time, and you can try it over and over again. But on stage, you have maybe, you know, sound checking with a band, you have, you know, an hour to do the whole show. So you can, you only have so many chances to get it right.

[7:00] Sara Bareilles: I have to say the sound in that theatre is incredible. I think to be to be able to, because I think that's what you want from those songs as well. They're, they're obviously these iconic songs, and you sort of know them a certain way. And of course, yes, they're reimagined to a certain extent, but nothing, there was nothing wimpy about it, which I loved. It was powerful and bold. And, and from a sound design perspective, it felt really, really rich. And it was, I was really impressed with that.

[7:30] Max Martin: Thank you. I think it was really, I felt like, when you see the show, there obviously, a lot of songs is turned, where does it turn on its head? It's, you know, it's an uptempo song might now be a ballad, or, you know, there might be a woman singing what used to be sung by a man, and so on and so forth. But then there are those moments where the where I was like, these songs need to, you know, when you go and see, like, boy, what's it called? Backstreet's Back, but it's not called that. It's called Boy Band's Back. In the show, I felt like we need to make that into the moment where you can feel the power and you can feel like the whole thing that Luke Shepard always talks about where, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a pop concert, but it's also theatre, but it's 100% both kind of thing. Which sort of demanded a lot of work on the sound. So it, you know, it feels powerful.

[8:32] Sara Bareilles: I agree with you about that. I think there are certain shows that sort of need, I don't know if it's because of density of lyrics, or like, you need a little bit less bombastic approach from the sound design. It's actually better for the show for the sonic experience to be more intimate. But I think for this show, that wouldn't have made any sense whatsoever. You know, I think that you know, but that's also, that was also the challenge, because I believe, I think that we have both, right? There's both the bombastic, but the sort of rollercoaster going up and down and the emotional rollercoaster that we have in our show, you know, it's, there's a lot of heart in it. And that you're absolutely right, you have to know when to sort of make it big and know when to make it small.

And that was a huge challenge, challenge, too, you know. But that's also why we have, you know, a bunch of string players and you know, for these all the way through to keep keep it, you know, some keep that emotional fader, so to speak.

[9:39] Sara Bareilles: Yeah. What is the band configuration? Like how many pieces?

[9:45] Max Martin: Do you know? We have four, I have to count now because it's four string players, there's a bass player, there's a guitar player, there's a drummer, and there's two keyboard players. What is that?

[9:59] Sara Bareilles: Amazing.

[10:00] Max Martin: A lot.

[10:05] Sara Bareilles: I love it. I love it. Well, it was it was awesome. I'm curious about your perspective on this. But it's the thing to me that feels the most different from being an artist being a pop artist, is that you are truly a

[10:19] Sara Bareilles: Of an orchestra the entire time. There is no singular person. The show doesn't happen without you. We are a team. We come together. It is all for one and one for all. And I think that I just love that spirit so much. I think it's such a generous way to create. For the most part, I have felt that the community of people that I've experienced in the theater community is just, I never want to go back. I mean, of course, yes, I want to go back. But, you know, I want to do both, I should say.

[10:51] Max Martin: You're bitten by the bug. I mean, I agree because I come from, a lot of my work is done in teams, right? Like most of these songs, a lot of these songs in the show, I've co-written with people throughout the years. And I remember one night when that happened for the first time I was in the theater, and someone was out last minute, and I panicked. I was like, how? What's going on? And that's when I really got to see what you're talking about. Because the audience, you know, riled up and became part of the whole, like, carrying this person through the show. There was so much love. Like I said, the company came together, the audience was like, so supportive. And I just couldn't believe it. I was like, oh my god, everyone like, are really nice in here.

So yeah, I'm totally with you on that one. The whole family vibe, and it's been super important for us to really keep that sort of feeling in the company and that everybody understands that, you know, we're all part of this. It's not just the people on stage, it's everyone working behind the scenes, even people selling the popcorn and all that stuff. It takes a village to get this on stage. And we try to emphasize that as much as I can when I get a chance.

[12:12] Sara Bareilles: Will you talk to us about the song that was written specifically for & Juliet, "One More Try"? How did you approach writing something completely original for this? Or what felt different about it, I guess, from other songwriting you've done?

[12:27] Max Martin: So the scene for "One More Try," it actually happened kind of organically, that we just couldn't find music from the vault, so to speak, to tell that story, what was going on in that scene. And so it was like, we had to do it. And it was really scary, because I kind of walked in thinking that part of the job was done. I'd done it for 25 whatever it was time. And they were like, hey, we need a new song. I was like, cool. All right. Because also, the song before that song comes in, and the songs after that song are sort of legit. Yeah, they've been around for a minute. And I know them so well and all that. So now I felt a lot of pressure to come up with something that sort of was up to par with something that's been so, I don't know, stood the test of time, or whatever you want to call it.

But it was also super exciting to be like, okay, it was very specific what needed to be said in that moment. But I struggled with it. It was really hard. I had this idea, like, okay, I'm going to do this by myself. I couldn't do it. So I brought in a few of my friends that I worked with, Salva Katesha, Peter Svensson, and a few more. I think there was one more, Oscar Holter, I think is on there too. And sort of just got to work. They came up with a seed that was like, oh, my God, that's amazing. Let's work on that. And like, I need help. I really need help on that one. I'm not going to lie. I'm really happy I did it. It was hard. But we did it. And now it's in. And I'm happy. Yeah.

[14:08] Sara Bareilles: It's amazing. I know, I can imagine. Because you're dealing with these mega juggernaut hit, hit, hit. And then you're like, okay, can I just pull one of those out of the ether again? And it does. It lives in that world completely.

[14:28] Max Martin: I hope so. Again, it's always hard to do it when you have to be... It's hard to compare it to the other ones. But I sort of came in, I decided to come in at it from the angle of like, okay, let's just tell, make sure this story is being told here and not worry so much about, you know, is it as good as I want it that way? Or this is bad, you know?

[14:53] Sara Bareilles: Right, right. It was more like, let's just make sure Luke Sheppard is happy.

[14:57] Max Martin: Right. But the story is getting told. That makes sense. That totally makes sense.

[15:02] Sara Bareilles: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I think it turned out pretty well, I'd say.

[15:05] Max Martin: Yeah, great. But I have a question for you, Sara. Because you were killing it. And then what made you sort of, what made you want to do what you do now? Like what turned, you know?

[15:18] Sara Bareilles: After my second record, well, it was partially moving to New York was, after my second record, "Kaleidoscope Heart," I was happy, comfortable, had a great little life in LA. I had a bungalow in Venice and friends and was working, you know, there was nothing wrong. I just, when I talk about it, I say that I sort of felt just unalive. I just wasn't, there was no fire. I could see down the road, the cyclical nature of being a pop artist. I was like, I can, I know what this is going to be for the next 20 years if I wanted to. Which is you write songs, you go into the studio, you make a record, you go on tour, you tour for a while, you come back, you take a little break, and then you start over. And I just felt claustrophobic.

And so I took what I thought would be one year, a little like rumspringa. I went to New York, I was like, oh, I'll go. And just, I'm just going to live in New York for a little while. And what I feel, the person that I feel like I encountered within myself that lived here was so much more exciting than the person that was living in my life in LA. And New York is a huge character in the story of my life. Like I just, and I think it's, you know, really, that's just a metaphor for the people that I've encountered here, the arts community, the food, the density of the population, the complicated nature of life here. I just, I feel more alive. And I took a meeting with Diane Paulus, who is our director for "Waitress."

They were in the very, very beginning stages of working on that show. I thought I would audition for something. I went for, and I auditioned for "Into the Woods," actually, the production they did back in the park. I auditioned for the role of Cinderella. I did not get it. I was so, I was so underprepared and had no idea what I was doing. And I was so humbled by that experience, because I thought, oh, I'm a good singer. I can, you know, and I did some musical theater. No, that was so egotistical of me to think that I could walk into this new medium and thrive there. But I took a meeting with Diane. She told me about the film "Waitress." I had not seen the movie. I went back and watched the movie.

And I was sort of just curious. It felt like an experiment. And I was like, I'm not totally sure I can do this. I don't, it feels impossible to me at the moment, but there was something about the idea of really taking a left turn. My soul was really asking me to do something different, like you said. So then I just went on this journey of, we just started with the film and the film script and writers started to come in and we were sort of looking for the right fit and it was deeply collaborative. It was painfully complicated. A lot of the time it was totally joyful.

[19:00] Max Martin: So how long did it take from you started to you had like, okay, that's it?

[19:03] Sara Bareilles: From us starting to get to Broadway was four years, which in the world of musicals is like a real fast track. So I was shocked about that. But I just, over the years fell in love with it. I fell in love with the process and the people and I don't like the tedium of it. I still don't like that, um, that you have to come back and revise and revise. I learned that like the way that I write for me as a storyteller, you know, it requires a slightly different brain to tell this other story. And, but I said the why was just that I think I was really searching for something and my life genuinely falls into two categories, which is like before "Waitress" and after "Waitress" and everything that has come after "Waitress" is better. I'm just so grateful that this project came into my life and it changed everything. So it's been like the great artistic love of my life and continues to be. And, um, yeah, I, I'm just really lucky that it showed up.

[20:02] Max Martin: Well, we're happy you did it. Congratulations.

[20:04] Sara Bareilles: Thank you. Thanks. Me too. It was really beautiful.

[20:07] Max Martin: Yeah. I'll come back to you when I write a whole new one.

[20:10] Sara Bareilles: Yes. I was going to ask, are you going to do another one?

[20:13] Max Martin: This hair will be here.

[20:19] Thank you for listening to the & Juliet podcast. Be sure to listen to our next episode when & Juliet choreographer Jennifer Weber joins Jerry Mitchell to discuss how dance tells stories in musical theater.