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[0:01] Charlie Murphy: Hello and welcome to Mapping The College Audition, a podcast where we explore the landscape of the college theater world and try to demystify this daunting audition process. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, director of MTCA, that's Musical Theater College Auditions. Please check us out at mtca.com. And today we've got Derek Klena on the show, continuing to up our handsomeness and charm quota. And after the taping of this episode, it is now public on Insta that Derek and Alicia are due again this fall. So huge congrats to them. Those dark circles don't look like they'll be going away anytime soon. But congrats on a second fatherhood. A second fatherhood? Becoming a father a second time over. I don't know what you say, but congrats either way.

It was really fun to get to chat with Derek. We talk all about his career and for our non-sports playing listeners, probably way too much baseball and softball content. But for a few of you, this is going to be right up your alley. And luckily, it coincides with the start of the Broadway Show League season, where the downtowners are off to a rollicking 2-0 start in our championship defense after vanquishing Tommy last week. I got to watch the show with our amazing alum Ali, starring in the lead role on a Tuesday, and then we got to beat them at softball on a Thursday on my birthday two days later. That's what I call a heck of a week. That's a pretty good week. To our graduating seniors, I hope you're also having some good weeks.

Many congrats to all of you. I'm sending you all love, including those of you still making those decisions in the next month due to those FAFSA delays. Looking forward to seeing many of you on Thursday for our last webinar of the 2024 season. To our juniors, I hope you're getting pumped for our summer masterclasses, which include that very same Tommy production I mentioned. They're much better at singing and dancing than they are at softball, I promise you. You only have a few weeks left to get that discounted price for the all-week pass, so jump on that if you want to participate. Shall we jump right in? Thanks to all of you for the birthday wishes. That was very kind. Thank you for the ratings and reviews that accompanied those wishes. All very much appreciated. I hope you're having wonderful springs, and I hope you enjoy this interview with the wonderful Derek Klena.

[2:24] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to be joined by Derek Klena. Derek has been all over Broadway in Wicked, Bridges of Madison County, Anastasia, Jagged Little Pill, where he played Nick Healy and was Tony-nominated alongside many friends of the pod and one wife of the pod, Moulin Rouge, which he's currently starring in. He was off-Broadway in Carrie and Dogfight, Sunset Boulevard, been on your TV screens and things like Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, many other things. And before all the success, he attended the program at UCLA, did not graduate, and so the rest of the pod, we're going to be shaming him for that disastrous decision and how it turned out. So thank you from him. Derek, how are you doing, man? Thank you so much for joining us.

[3:03] Derek Klena: I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. I know we've talked about this for a while, so I'm so glad that we were able to make it happen. I've been trying very hard to recruit you for two things, one for the podcast and two for Broadway Show League, and I'm glad that I succeeded at this one for the sake of our listeners. But for my team, of course, I would have chosen the other, but it's fine.

[3:22] Charlie Murphy: It's fine.

[3:23] Derek Klena: Oh, man. One of these years.

[3:25] Charlie Murphy: One of these years. Yeah, we gotta get you out of a Broadway show so we can get you onto the off-Broadway team. That's our goal.

[3:29] Derek Klena: There you go. It's not my goal for your career and for your family. I'm very glad that you can come to Broadway. Let me start you off, though, with the first question that I throw basically at everyone, which is, can you remember back to 16, 17-year-old Derek? You know, as you sort of were looking at the college process, I know you were a baseball player. That's why I'm trying to recruit you to my Broadway team. But what were you thinking about in terms of just your college life and your future? Were you thinking about theater? What was sort of going through your head around 17, 18 as you're making those decisions?

[4:02] Derek Klena: Yeah, you know, I kind of had a unique I was very much that high school musical kid doing sports, primarily baseball, and also doing theater outside of school. And it was both were part of my life growing up. And I knew that I wanted to go to school in California. So I wasn't necessarily applying to schools for theater programs, per se. The only theater program that I actually applied to was UCLA because I knew that they had a decent program there. But other than that, I applied to a lot of UCs in California, applied to USC, applied to a lot of psychology majors, communication majors, and also into USC's broadcast journalism major, because they are one of the few colleges that actually have like a really good major for that. And so I was very much keeping my options open. I knew that I would always do theater, but I didn't necessarily I wasn't committed to majoring in it.

[5:01] Charlie Murphy: When you say theater, were you thinking musical theater at the time? I mean, that's been a big part of your acting career. You were singing back then. That was already a big part of your life.

[5:04] Derek Klena: Yeah, I would say I fell into acting and performing mainly through singing. That's kind of what I realized was a love and a talent of mine early on. And then the rest kind of followed.

[5:16] Charlie Murphy: And why California when you said, hey, I would definitely want to, because part of them, I would think if you're thinking, I definitely want to go to school in California, some people are like, because I want to be on TV and film or whatever. But what made you say, I definitely want to go to school in California?

[5:20] Derek Klena: I just grew up there and I like the UC system and I didn't necessarily want to go too far from home. I liked the schools in California, particularly UCLA. That was always a school of mine that I wanted to go to from growing up. We went to college baseball games there and football games and things like that. So I kind of had it in my mind growing up that I always wanted to go to UCLA. It was just a matter of like how and what I would major in. So that was always kind of my top choice.

[5:52] Charlie Murphy: I love it. So yeah, let's get into your time at UCLA. So what was your experience? How was the juggling? I mean, even in high school, so impressive that you were able to juggle both baseball and theater. I'll say that wasn't my experience. I sort of had to kind of pick by my junior year. I was like, this is really hard. It was, you know, I was like, I have to make a decision to go. Am I going to really keep pursuing this? I'm going to really keep pursuing it. It seems like you managed to do both. How was that juggling at school?

[6:01] Derek Klena: At times traumatizing. You can imagine. Early morning practices, right? And then late night rehearsals. There wasn't a whole lot of sleep. Yeah. I probably neglected some school work. But I just tried to make it happen. I definitely have some PTSD from like very uncomfortable talks with either my coach or my director or the person that ran like children's theaters that I was a part of about like asking it to be excused from certain rehearsals or text because of a game or because of a show. So it was it was a constant it was a constant battle. It was really hard. Unfortunately, like the way our school programs kind of worked out, I didn't do a whole lot of theater in school. I primarily did it in throughout my community and regional theater.

I did some performing at this dinner theater in Claremont, which was where I grew up. And. But yeah, I just I just made it happen. I think that the. This the secret is just honesty, like you just have to be honest with your either your professors or your teachers or your directors, your coaches, you just have to ask them for what you need and hope that their response is going to be supportive. I'm a big advocate and also believer in, you know, the world is your oyster. Don't don't pigeonhole yourself to one thing or pigeonhole your future to one path that you've set for yourself, because honestly, a college is is the place where you figure out what you want to do. It's so funny because you have to pick you kind of have to pick your path in college prior to that.

But in picking that path and trying to pursue that path in college, you really understand who you are as an adult and where your interest lies. So it's it's never too late to pivot. I think giving yourself as many options as possible is only in your benefit.

[8:12] Charlie Murphy: It's so well said. Well, so let's get to your options here. You're juggling your grad school. And then all of a sudden it seems like a little bit of career opportunity is going to kind of drop into your lap. So what happened? What was that experience? UCLA?

[8:24] Derek Klena: Yeah, I had a very, very like bizarre luck. A lot of luck was in this as well. Um, so I got into theater. I got into the theater program at UCLA. I had a very good high school baseball career, but it really didn't like really excel until I was a junior and a senior. And at that point, it was a little late to get recruited by schools. So I was kind of a late bloomer in that regard. And and the coach, my coach in high school knew the coach at UCLA and asked me, he's like, hey, would you be interested in playing at UCLA? He's like, I know you're doing the theater program, but you do you want, do you want me to reach out and see if they have like a walk on day or like a tryout? And I was like, yeah, I mean, it's always been my dream to be able to play there.

And, um, I had, I had had a lot of accolades for pitching my senior year. We had just won the championship. And so I was like, yeah, I mean, if that's an opportunity that I could go for, I'd love that. So they did, they did have a walk on day. I went, I threw some bullpens as a pitcher. Uh, did some field work and they wanted to keep me on as sort of a red shirt that year. We had some, we had the best pitching stash staff in the nation. So they were like, we're a little stacked pitching wise right now, but if you'd like to stand in like a red shirt capacity and train with us and develop this year, uh, we would love to have you. And so I, I was like, okay, I guess this is the path that I'm taking this year.

I switched out of theater. I went, I was undeclared for my freshman year. And so, uh, I was training with the baseball team and, and with the pitchers. And that was the first time in my entire life, I think that I didn't have theater as a part of like my day to day or part of my life at all. And I, and I missed that aspect of, of myself. And also I quickly realized that although this was my dream and this is something that I love, I couldn't see a successful path ahead. Um, given the type of pitching that we had on that team and, and the amount of sacrifice and risk it would be to go down that path. Um, so I was thankful for that opportunity, but after my freshman year, I decided not to play my sophomore year, went into psychology at school.

Uh, ended up doing a singing competition in LA where, uh, I was able to uh, get an agent out of that, uh, competition. It was like a seven week competition called LA's next great stage star and sort of like an American idol style. Yeah. Yeah. So there were like 10 to 15, 10 to 15 of us. And every Sunday we'd perform one song at this venue and they would have artistic directors, uh, casting directors and agents come from the LA area and judge this competition and score everyone. And at the end of the six to eight weeks, they choose a final five and then a winner and the top five got to perform their own cabaret at this venue or their own like solo show. So I made the top five, I didn't win, but, um, but I got an agent out of the experience.

I got to put together my own show and at the time catch me if you can was doing their out of town in Seattle. And I've told this story a bunch of times. So some people may have heard, but, um, but, uh, so when I was putting together my solo show, I saw on YouTube, Aaron Tveit singing like the 11 o'clock number from the show. And I was like, Oh man, that's a great song. I would love to put that in my show, but the sheet music wasn't out yet. But my music director was like, I think I could put an arrangement together by listening to this. So he was able to, we ended up singing the song in my show, a bootleg version of the show of the song.

[12:54] Derek Klena: Send it to Mark. Mark said, this is great. I'm going to forward it to casting and see what everybody thinks. But we'd love to have you out in a couple of months for final callbacks. So they sent it to cast. You're a sophomore in school now! Is this still your sophomore year?

[13:06] Derek Klena: Yeah, sophomore year. Unbelievable, okay. So this all happens, they set me up with a callback. I go to New York with my mom. I'm at a dance call, two final callbacks, a work session. I don't get that job.

[13:18] Derek Klena: They said I was a little too young for like that type of role at that point. But, there was another show that they were casting that they thought I'd be really great for, which was Carrie. And so I got the audition for Carrie, put myself on tape in L.A., sent it to New York, flew out to New York again for callbacks, about four or five callbacks. Finally booked the workshop of Carrie, the one before the Off-Broadway run.

[13:43] Derek Klena: So... When was this? Oh yeah, during the spring of my... spring year of, or spring quarter of my sophomore year.

[13:55] Charlie Murphy: And you're still going to school. You're booking, you're going to New York, but you're still coming back to school.

[13:58] Derek Klena: Yeah, I literally, I missed two weeks of classes and then flew back and thought I was going to take finals and do really well. And it was, it didn't go, it didn't go as smoothly as I would have hoped. But grateful for the opportunity, I had to take it.

[14:14] Derek Klena: So I went to New York, did two weeks of the Carrie workshop, flew back, finished my sophomore year and then finally got the offer for the Off-Broadway production during the summer between my sophomore and junior year.

[14:25] Charlie Murphy: And history would say never looked back, it seems like.

[14:29] Derek Klena: Yeah. Well, I, the way that the Carrie run was a limited run and it was only going to fall during the winter quarter of my junior year. So my plan was to do the fall quarter, fly out, I would literally start rehearsal the day after my fall quarter ended and take one quarter off of school and then go back after Carrie.

[14:50] Derek Klena: But towards the end of the Carrie run, I ended up getting the audition for Dogfight and that's kind of what solidified me staying in New York because then I ended up booking Dogfight and.

[15:00] Charlie Murphy: So how are you having those conversations? I mean, of course, it's like amazing, it's like a Cinderella story or an Anastasia story, whatever you want to say. But it's an amazing, like, oh my gosh, like this leads to this is what you want. It's like a little momentum. And then exactly what's happened now this version of this amazing career, which we'll talk more about sort of that growth. But as that's first happening, like, how are you having conversation with your parents? How are you thinking about this for yourself? I mean, I know as a 20 year old, you're going, I do not want to turn down a potential awesome, you know, piece of work that's coming my way. This is it. It could be my big break. But like, are you, are there any serious considerations to going like, should I finish school first? Should I make a plan to be going back? How is that discussion happening with you and your family?

[15:40] Derek Klena: Yeah, you know, it was, um, it was big. It was at the time I didn't realize the magnitude of what it could do to my life. I think, I think it was a gift and a curse that I was naive to the fact that like, this could be the move. I always thought until I was in New York, until I was, because even when I, like when I moved out for Carrie, I didn't move everything quite yet. I think when I, when I booked Dogfight and knew I was going to be there another four months, that's when I, like, I really packed up all my things from Southern California.

[16:14] Derek Klena: And it made, it made more sense, but it was a big move. I mean, I was dating Alicia, my now wife, uh, we met at UCLA and so we had been together for a year. And so that was also, you know, we didn't know how it was going to work out for us.

[16:28] Derek Klena: So you ended up graduating a year early.

[16:31] Derek Klena: So we only did about six months long distance and then she got an internship in New York and she came out too.

[16:38] Charlie Murphy: So it's Cinderella story. It's all working out.

[16:41] Derek Klena: It's everything's coming up, Derek. It's unbelievable. No, but what we had talked about, I mean, early in our, early in our, like when we first started dating, we both knew that we like potentially wanted to live and work in New York. She works in the fashion industry. And so both of our paths kind of led here. So that was also, um, we, we knew from the get go that that was maybe going to be in our future of moving here.

[17:02] Charlie Murphy: Um, but just not, we didn't know how it was going to happen.

[17:05] Derek Klena: So yeah, it was, um, you said sort of a momentous decision, like, well, or when you realizing, I didn't realize how it impacted my life. How do you feel like it has? I mean, obviously your work life has turned out great. I was joking about, we're going to shame you from dropping out of school that your life is amazing. And we know to work in this industry, there's no, nobody has ever double checked it. Can I just see that diploma? Like, that's not, of course, any part of the industry at all. But what do you mean when you were sort of saying, Hey, now that I think about it, there are some things that it feels like, Ooh, this did impact my life. Or what was that decision, you know, sort of surrounding on the

[17:35] Derek Klena: I didn't realize, I think I just didn't realize that like, that was it. That was the big move. That's, that's how it was going to go for me. And that would be the last time that I was living in California, potentially ever.

[17:46] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Until you move back with a big movie or whatever.

[17:49] Derek Klena: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just, I'm just patiently waiting for that. But, uh, no, but you know, here we are 12 years later and I still think about that day of getting on the plane with my boxes and stuff like that and not really knowing or realizing for myself that that was going to be the big move. It always just felt temporary until it all of a sudden wasn't.

[18:15] Derek Klena: And so I think that's why I said it was a gift and a curse that I was naive to that because I think, I think it would have freaked me out a little bit more if had I realized what it all meant. Well, but I was lying by the seat of my pants and then running with the opportunity. And before I knew it, I was like, okay, I'm here.

[18:30] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. I was going to say you took a big gamble. That seemed to really paid off. And, you know, I think it's a perspective I really want to make sure we have on the pod because of course what our company does and so a lot, a lot of what the podcast will talk about college, we talk to colleges, we talk to people about their collegiate careers, but of course this idea of like, that was the right decision clearly for you. It was a good gamble that really worked. And I think like, I think people will be surprised to hear because we are often kind of advising our students when they're thinking about college choice, Hey, maybe don't focus on, it has to be in New York city. Cause you want to be actively working during school because of this different difficult decision you might get.

[19:04] Charlie Murphy: But I think there's something surprised when, when our students are faced with that decision, we really are always like, let's weigh the pros and cons. Like I'm not a person who says never leave school. I'm like, if, if it's the right industry decision, it might be the right call for you. It's just that you're going to put yourself in that really difficult. Ooh, I booked.

[19:19] Derek Klena: Yeah. Especially cause you know, it's when it's, I booked the lead in a Broadway show. Okay. Well that's not, maybe not that hard, but when it's, I booked a small off Broadway reading, which I don't know, could turn into something like that can be really hard to know. You got lucky.

[19:33] Derek Klena: Maybe not only that Carrie happened, but that dog fight happened so quickly and you felt like, Hey, I really have momentum. But even then, I mean, there's a version where that doesn't pay off, right? There's a version when they go dog fight, really cool. And then you sit around for a couple of years and, and what's your, what are your next steps?

[19:47] Derek Klena: People have also asked me in the past, like, is there anything, do you wish you stayed in school? And like, what, what, what about staying in school? Do you miss, or do you feel like you missed out on? And I think my, my take on going into a traditional like theater program and, or majoring in something else and then also pursuing that in, in the real world is there are technical things that I wish I would have known in school that I wish I would have. I wish I was better, like more well read in plays and Shakespeare and more traditional theater and, and I wish I had more technical knowledge on that side of the industry and that side of the, like the art form, but there is no substitute for experience.

[20:33] Derek Klena: So that's the other end of it is if you do get the opportunity to be involved with people that you really look up to, or people that you admire in the industry, or people that have been doing it for years, who can give you that knowledge that you can't learn in the classroom. That also to me is so invaluable and, and that's why, and honestly, like, that's how I always kind of grew up. I grew up just by doing it and doing it and doing it and doing it and being involved in children's theater and meeting people and, and, and socializing, because it's such a social industry.

[21:05] Derek Klena: The more people you know, and the more people you work with, the more opportunity you give yourself for success, the more rooms your name ends up in. And that is the kind of the, that's how this industry works. So yes, being in New York City and, and being involved in class and going to shows and putting yourself on stage and all those things is as equally important and beneficial for your skill set as being in the classroom as well.

[21:34] Derek Klena: And so that's why I think there's so many different options and, and not every option is right for everybody. Some people really need that, that foundation and that technical structure and that confidence that you can gain in the classroom to propel them into the real world. And other people are like, no, I kind of want to be out there and I want to try it out and I want to crash and burn. And I want to, and I, and I want to learn by that experience.

[21:56] Derek Klena: And if you're ready for that and you think your brain and your heart are ready for that, then like put yourself out there and go for it. Because the faster you start meeting people, you know, the faster those connections can get made.

[22:07] Charlie Murphy: We talked about often the sort of, it's an odd pairing to mix sort of like four years of academia with theater, because theater is really, it's an apprenticeship model. I mean, that's when you talk about learning, it's more like a trade, like blacksmithing or whatever. It's how it's always been learned that like someone takes you under your wing and they're helping you learn and they're, you're watching them and you're figuring out, oh, I see why that's wrong. Like, you know, that, that is by doing, but also by sort of being apprenticed to, or by, you know, learning from older actors.

[22:31] Charlie Murphy: Did you feel like, was there anything skillset wise, you know, obviously by the time you're 20 and you're sending videos to Mark Shaman, you know, and apologizing for bootlegging him or whatever, that like you have a singing foundation already under you where you feel, Hey, I feel really strong. It seems like also as an actor, I feel as a performer pretty strong. Was there anything kind of skillset wise that as you hit New York city, you said, Hey, I do need to kind of tune up. I need some, I do want a couple of voice lessons, or I do want to get into an acting class. Was there anything that you've, that you've done sort of since arriving where you go, I'm trying to keep my skills up?

[23:01] Derek Klena: Definitely acting class. I think I never, I never took formal acting training. I did take private voice lessons growing up. So I had trained vocally, had done a little bit of masterclass and coaching through just monologues for college and things like that and it through acting, but really, uh, especially for acting for on the, for, for on camera work.

[23:24] Derek Klena: Um, I took class when I got to the city, I feel like Joe Mantello and Lindsey Mendez were early mentors of mine in terms of teaching me what it meant to be a professional actor in New York city and, and one that can sustain and one that people want to work with.

[23:44] Derek Klena: Um, Lindsey always led by example. I think she's, you know, we're still really good friends to this day. She's obviously brilliant on stage, but such a smart and, and, and good person. And, uh, she really took me under my wing under her wing when I didn't know what I didn't know. And we were kind of both put into the show and we were team partners on stage and off.

[24:03] Derek Klena: And, um, I was really lucky to have her to lean on and, and learn from through that experience because Joe Mantello kind of put us through this acting bootcamp and, and working on dogfight. And I had never been challenged that way before.

[24:18] Derek Klena: He, he made us feel like at times, like, like we wanted to make him so proud all the time, just because of how much we admired his, his acting ability and his directing ability. And we knew that he expected a lot out of, out of, out of us.

[24:33] Derek Klena: And he took a huge chance on casting me who knew when no one really knew in New York, who was brand new in this, in this brand new high profile show. And so we wanted to make him proud, but he really broke us down and then built us back up.

[24:46] Derek Klena: There were some days where we walked out of the rehearsal room and we were both in tears being like, we're the worst actors in the world. Like we just spent three hours and we got through like two pages of the scene with, and I couldn't get his acting school all the time being like, no, do it again.

[25:03] Derek Klena: And, but I had never had anybody challenged me like that and, and make me take a step back and realize what it was I was actually doing. I had always just done it as a hobby and something that came naturally to me and something that I enjoyed doing with my friends. But that was the first time that I was like, Oh, this is a job. This is how you do it in the industry. This is how you can make a career out of this. And this is what people expect from you.

[25:28] Derek Klena: And so that was huge being 20 years old and just moving to a new city and trying to make good first impressions. And so I thank Joe and I think Lindsay a lot for kind of guiding me to the light in that way and also setting me up for success and demanding more of myself so that, you know, I wanted to make.

[36:18] Derek Klena: It's hard. I have a lot of respect for people that can do that so seamlessly and elegantly and put themselves out there and have the confidence to do that. For me, it's been a challenge; it's something that gives me a lot of anxiety to do. So I understand when people are a little bit more like not as gung-ho about throwing material of themselves online because we are our own worst critic. Watching self-tapes and things like that is obviously the most torturing thing because all you can do is be like, "Oh man, I wish I could do that differently," or "I wish I could sound differently," or "She can do this differently." So that never leaves. But you know, unfortunately, or fortunately, the medium is very important for what we do, and people can get noticed from it.

I have gotten jobs from that type of thing, so I do think it's very important to have material of yourself that you're proud of out there in the ether because people will find it, and it is important. If that takes very little effort and only has upside by putting yourself online with stuff that represents you well, I think it's a necessary evil.

[37:30] Derek Klena: Do you think at all about sort of the curation of like what happens when you Google Derek Klena? Is that something where you ever think about, like, do you look at your Wikipedia and be like, "Oh, I don't know if that's accurate," or do you look at like which images and which links are coming up first? Is that something that your team at all is going to have a conversation with you about, going, "I'm not sure I'd lead with this site versus this"?

[37:53] Derek Klena: Yeah, they do. They've brought it up to me before, and every once in a while, I'll Google search myself just out of curiosity to see what pops up. But I do think it's important. I think there are things you can do through Google in curating what comes up first and things like that. I haven't done a whole lot of that, but I do know people that do. I know people do a lot, and they put out current pictures of themselves and they try to push those in YouTube and on Google and things like that. But yeah, it's all important. I think it's fascinating, and sometimes it'll be funny to see what pops up. One of the big reasons I'm asking you about specifically is because I want to talk about kind of your relationship with your fans because I'm going to say so many of our...

[40:11] Derek Klena: I listen to Broadway. I've been really lucky to be in one original Broadway cast and do cast recordings. And so I think that is a huge way that the world gets to experience these shows without having the means or opportunity to necessarily see them live. And so by being the voice that people listen to in the Anastasia soundtrack, or by being on the Bridges of Madison County soundtrack that people love so much, and people realizing that I did that in my early 20s, I think those are the fun things that theater fans and people that grow up listening to theater soundtracks geek out over. I know that I geeked out when I found out that Brian Darcy James was Barrett and sang Barrett's song in Titanic.

And I put that two and two together once I realized who he was, and I was watching him in Shrek. And I was like, no way, that was the guy from Titanic? And so to be in that realm of people that make those connections, and to hear these voices growing up, and put two and two together is so cool. And I always say that being on an original soundtrack or an original album is one of the coolest opportunities you can get in professional theater. And I've been very lucky to do some amazing recordings.

[41:30] Charlie Murphy: Okay, I'm only gonna embarrass you a little bit more, and then we're gonna play a game, I promise. We got to talk about those devilish good looks. I keep mentioning this handsome man in front of me. For those of you who are unfortunately only listening to the podcast, I'm sorry, but you'll have some clips that you'll get to see of Derek as well. I just want to get sort of like, what is your relationship with like, your own looks? And you know, we've talked a lot about type in terms of on the podcast in general. But you know, if you want to feel like brand, if you just as you think about it as a career asset of like, what, you know, sort of, and maybe let's even be specific, your boyish good looks that you have, because I think, you know, you've played a lot of young people.

And now a lot of man child. Yes, you put you, let's just say for the record, for the podcast, you've played in a not possible, you could not have been Elizabeth's child in the show. It's not possible. It's too old to be her son, or she's too young to be your mom or whatever. But you know, as you kind of age into and now you're playing, certainly, just men, I mean, these, you know, not not kids anymore. What is your relationship with your looks and your sort of what that is that sort of a selling point for you or, or an asset for you career wise?

[42:40] Derek Klena: I think it's about it's one of those things about understanding who you are. And like, there are there are type of roles that I always looked up to, and I always wanted to play. And there is who I am and what I do well. And it took me a while to understand like where I fit in, in terms of leading men and the types of roles that I want to pursue and the type of people that I go up against in the room. And once you realize what your secret sauce is, and what makes you different than the five or six other people that you get pigeonholed with, I think that can be your secret weapon. And also it just it puts your mind at peace. When you I because I've been very, very lucky in my career, but there are a lot of roles that I wish I could have or I was in the audition room for or that I really wanted to pursue that for whatever reason didn't go my way.

But at the end of the day, I was always able to look back at that experience or that audition or that role and be like, Oh, I understand. I understand why the role went to this person. And I understand why, like, you know, I might not I was not exactly what they were looking for. Or at the time, I was like, Oh man, I'm perfect for this. But it's always the things that you think you're perfect for that you don't end up being perfect for. And so I think once I once I realized that, like, this is who I am, I do have like a boyish sound to my voice. I'm a large guy, but I have a youthful, like, I don't know tone to my voice and in way that I interact on stage. That I use that as my secret weapon. I was able I've been able to play young roles for a long time. And I think I finally graduated from college roles.

[43:59] Charlie Murphy: You said it was the past is now out.

[44:25] Derek Klena: Yeah, yeah, it's done. But, you know, I just I just tried to embrace that and and also realize like, you can't pigeonhole yourself with all these other people because you are unique and you are different. And once you find out like what sets what that is for you, I think you can use it as to your advantage.

[44:46] Charlie Murphy: I love it. Okay, we're gonna take one more break. We're gonna play a little Broadway Show League game. I've hyped it up enough. We'll see if it comes through back in a flash.

[44:56] Charlie Murphy: All right, we're back with Derek Klena and take me out to the ballgame. Here we go. I've got a Broadway Show League game just for you. These are backed by popular demand. Many of our fans clamor for these games. Okay, so this is a simple trivia game. I'm just going to ask you some trivia questions about the Broadway Show League. Are you ready to play, Derek?

[45:24] Derek Klena: Bring it.

[45:24] Charlie Murphy: Here we go. The first one is an easy question, though it's not an easy answer. The Broadway Show League was established in what year? I'm gonna give you multiple choice here. Is it A. 1853, B. 1901, C. 1937, or D. 1955?

[45:42] Derek Klena: 1955.

[45:44] Charlie Murphy: That is correct. Good. Now, Derek, I'm also really impressed. This is we're seeing the intelligence of Derek, redshirt freshman year or no. He's not fooled by the normal it's probably B or C. He wouldn't put it A or D. No, I'm not going to fool you with my game mechanics.

[46:00] Derek Klena: There's no way those fields existed prior to 1940.

[46:04] Charlie Murphy: That's exactly right. That's a good reason. That was real logic, not game logic, which is going to be helpful to you in sort of game theory. Okay, which of the following Broadway shows did not open in 1955? I'm going to read you five shows. Which one did not open in 1955? A. Inherit the Wind, the original. B. Damn Yankees, the original. C. Pirates of Penzance, that would be a revival. D. Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, the original. Or E. Diamonds, the original.

[46:32] Derek Klena: Did not. Oh, man. So four of those five shows did open, which you should see this Broadway year in 1955. I was like, I can't, I gotta pick 10 that were like, you would have all heard of. I don't know the first and last one. I'm just gonna say Diamonds because I don't know Diamonds.

[46:48] Charlie Murphy: Two for two. Two for two, Diamonds is great. Diamonds is a musical all about baseball, but that opened in 1985. Inherit the Wind is a play, a boring play.

[46:58] Derek Klena: Not a boring play, Inherit the Wind is great, but not made for one.

[47:01] Charlie Murphy: Okay, a little palate cleanser. This is not a right answer, wrong answer, just to fill in the blank. A designated hitter is to a standby slash alternate in the musical world as an umpire is to what in the theater world. So a designated hitter, a DH, is to a standby as an umpire is to what?

[47:19] Derek Klena: Oh, man.

[47:23] Charlie Murphy: Um, back to the SATs, just for you, Derek.

[47:26] Derek Klena: This is more like, this is more like the, this is like the bar, this is like a bar question.

[47:31] Charlie Murphy: That's right.

[47:32] Derek Klena: Because there's not really a wrong answer, but there's like a more right one.

[47:37] Derek Klena: I don't have a right answer here. This is a stage manager.

[47:41] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, that's good. Stage manager, I think, is probably the best, right?

[47:43] Derek Klena: Yeah, they're the ones that are going to keep you in line and make sure that the game, the game goes according to plan. No one knows.

[47:50] Charlie Murphy: And mostly it's about keeping on time, which is certainly for the Broadway show, they're going to answer. All right, stage manager, I think, was my number one answer. Director, I think you could have said.

[47:57] Derek Klena: Yeah, director too, but I feel like that would have been like a head coach.

[48:01] Charlie Murphy: There you go. See, there you go. Derek, you're three for three.

[48:03] Derek Klena: Right.

[48:04] Charlie Murphy: You're crushing it. Okay, back to the hard ones. In 2023, this pair of on and off stage lovers, both well known for their iconic roles in this iconic production, also represented their team and show at the All-Star Game, though now neither is part of that show. So this is the Broadway Show League All-Star Game.

[48:22] Derek Klena: Wow.

[48:24] Charlie Murphy: Which I noticed, and in fairness, you did not participate. It seemed like Antonio.

[48:28] Derek Klena: Yeah, he did.

[48:30] Charlie Murphy: Um, 2023 onstage and offstage couple.

[48:38] Derek Klena: Wow. And they're well known for their iconic roles in this iconic production.

[48:42] Charlie Murphy: Iconic, you can quibble with if you want, but I won't.

[48:45] Derek Klena: Is it Eva and Reeve?

[48:46] Charlie Murphy: It's Eva and Reeve.

[48:47] Derek Klena: No way!

[48:49] Charlie Murphy: Derek, very good. With no help, with no help. I would have given you hints too.

[48:53] Derek Klena: Oh, right.

[48:54] Charlie Murphy: Before, before. Very good. Okay, the next ones are not going to be easily gettable. There's a website for the Broadway Show League that lists celebrity All-Stars. So the next three rounds are going to be which of these celebrity All-Stars have not played for the Broadway Show League, meaning most of these people did. Are you ready? Round one is A, John Lithgow, B, Eartha Kitt, C, Meatloaf, or D, Wynne Butler.

[49:19] Derek Klena: Eartha Kitt.

[49:21] Charlie Murphy: Oh, would have been such, Eartha Kitt would have been a good made up one. But no, it is Wynne Butler. Wynne Butler, though currently with a Broadway show going on, that we know of. Maybe this season he'll jump in.

[49:30] Derek Klena: Go for Eartha Kitt.

[49:32] Charlie Murphy: Go for Eartha Kitt, and you're going to be excited about some of these other ones coming up. Round two, same question. Who did not play for the Broadway Show League? A, Al Pacino, B, Danny DeVito, C, Robert Redford, and D, Woody Allen.

[49:46] Derek Klena: Al Pacino.

[49:48] Charlie Murphy: Al Pacino did. Danny DeVito was my made up name. Danny DeVito is my made up name.

[49:53] Derek Klena: Okay, and last round of this impossible thing. It's mostly just to be like, oh my god. I figured all of them would have been gamers, I feel like.

[49:59] Charlie Murphy: They're all in the same world, right? They're all the same world. I like it. All right, last round of this is A, Aaron Sorkin, B, Jack Lemmon, C, Rosie O'Donnell, and D, Tony Danza.

[50:13] Derek Klena: I know Rosie and Tony did. What were the two first ones?

[50:16] Charlie Murphy: Aaron Sorkin and Jack Lemmon.

[50:22] Derek Klena: I feel like Jack Lemmon.

[50:24] Charlie Murphy: It's Aaron Sorkin.

[50:25] Derek Klena: Aaron Sorkin didn't play.

[50:26] Charlie Murphy: Aaron Sorkin, doesn't he feel like someone who would have played?

[50:28] Derek Klena: I feel like Aaron Sorkin would have, but okay.

[50:30] Charlie Murphy: Maybe he did, maybe he just didn't. Now, this just meant they didn't make the current, the all-star. It doesn't mean they weren't on there. They didn't make a celebrity all-star or whatever. It's like whatever, I think. But a lot of the big celebrities they listed on the second one. Tony Danza, even a few years ago, still was playing.

[50:42] Derek Klena: Yeah, he still plays with some teams, yeah.

[50:44] Charlie Murphy: Amazing, it's amazing, yeah. Okay, we got only a couple more. Question eight. This is not really a trivia question, but how do we get you on that list, Derek Klena? What do we have to do to get you on that list?

[50:52] Derek Klena: I feel like this is more important than being in Sardis.

[50:56] Charlie Murphy: We need to get you on the celebrity all-star list.

[50:59] Derek Klena: Yeah, maybe this year.

[51:00] Charlie Murphy: We have a Moulin Rouge team.

[51:03] Derek Klena: Okay, we'll see, we'll see.

[51:04] Charlie Murphy: We may have to get some agent involvement to talk to them.

[51:06] Derek Klena: We'll see, yeah, we got to make this a PR move.

[51:09] Charlie Murphy: True or false, the current commissioner of this league is, in fact, named Commissioner Gordon.

[51:14] Derek Klena: Oh, true.

[51:15] Charlie Murphy: That is true, isn't that amazing?

[51:16] Derek Klena: Commissioner Gordon.

[51:19] Charlie Murphy: You passed with flying colors, Derek.

[51:21] Derek Klena: I didn't count exactly what you chose. That was a fun one, though.

[51:24] Charlie Murphy: Very tricky, very tricky. We're going to move toward wrapping up here. I want to talk a little bit about baseball, though, while we're in this game. What do you feel like with your career?

[51:35] Charlie Murphy: Juggling both. You know, what do you feel like, in terms of like lessons from athletics? You know, we talked about this event actually in our recent episode with Brandon Gardner, who's a professional improv… improvisor slash comedy writer. You know, we talked about kind of those some of the lessons you can get from sports to improv. I do really think a lot of these apply to theater as well. Is there anything that you feel like particularly you learned from your time with baseball or with other sports that you bring into the Broadway stage, that you bring into your career?

[51:58] Derek Klena: I think being a pitcher… I think takes a lot of discipline and focus. And I think… because a pitcher, you're kind of just out there on your own, and there's a lot of pressure, and no one really to bail you out in some of those situations. So I think that's prepared me for times alone on stage, because there are often times where like that… if you start to think about the fact that you're out there alone, and you have no one else on stage to support you, if things were to go awry, then that's when you slip into the place that we like to call the white room, and you forget everything. And so like in times like that, right, where I start to psych myself out, I'm glad that I've also been a pitcher in baseball, and you have no choice but just to do it, and focus, and clear out all the noise. And so I think having that background in baseball especially has only helped me with my on-stage skill set.

[52:59] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I love that. I mean, I love… so pitcher, I remember sort of feeling the like… when you feel that pressure of like your instinct to kind of aim the ball, of like just get it across. And like as soon as you do that, you're dead. You're dead. And that exists on stage too. You're like, okay, let me think about my lines and really make sure… and then you're like, I'm out. I'm dead.

[53:18] Derek Klena: The more that you think about the high note, the harder the high note's going to be.

[53:20] Charlie Murphy: That's right. It's like trying to throw it right down the middle, and you're like, whoops, I bounced it. Whoops.

[53:26] Derek Klena: Yeah. All right. So we move on to the last few questions. I want to talk a little bit about sort of what it's like sharing an industry with your brother. So in your case, you've literally shared a role. I mean, I cannot imagine because truly nobody in my family is at all connected to this industry. So it's hard for me to even picture that. But was it… I mean, I know for everyone, it's not a solely positive experience because you've got your own anxieties of the industry, and now all of a sudden you're sharing those with your family. What is that experience of like, were you encouraging him? Were you just so happy for him? Were you nervous? Were you saying, hey, maybe it's harder than you think? Or like, what was that experience as he sort of joined you?

[53:58] Derek Klena: I mean, part of me was like a little nervous for him and the experience and one taking on a role that we would share. It's just because I didn't want any comparisons to happen or anything like that, because that can be, one, just tough for your mind, good or bad. But I think everyone was really supportive of it. I was really happy for him. I think it was a huge opportunity. And obviously a show that I believed in a lot and that was very close to my heart and a part of my life for such a long time. So to get to share the role with him and share that experience with him was really special. And I got to see him in the role in Minneapolis, and he was amazing. We're the same in a lot of ways, but we're very different in the way that we approach material and the way that our personas are.

So I was excited for him to be able to flex that muscle and to show people that we are different and that he is his own person and he has his own perspective in this, even though we played the same role and we stand the same on stage.

[55:00] Charlie Murphy: Did it make you want to go back and play it again? Were you like, oh, now that I see him, now I want to do that.

[55:06] Derek Klena: I'm like, he's got it. I gladly passed the torch and now it's his torch.

[55:12] Charlie Murphy: But now do you feel any kind of like, okay, for like his career and like next steps? And like, is there that feeling of like, now you guys go through this world together? I mean, I can't really picture that.

[55:22] Derek Klena: Yeah, I'm excited for that. And you know, we're seven years apart. So I think that helps. We're not often going to be going in for the same roles. And so I think that is a huge plus. No, but I'm excited for him. I'm excited that he's coming off the tour now and that he just worked really hard for a year and a half and he doesn't have to stress immediately about finding a new job and he can move to the city with a little bit of momentum and the confidence from the tour. And I think he's going to do great. He's like such a great actor and he's really grounded. And like I said, we're different in a lot of ways. So I'm excited for him in this next chapter. But I know it's been, he just closed the book or they closed the page on like a big chapter of his life.

[56:02] Charlie Murphy: Does he end up moving down the block from you? Or are you like, hey, you got to stay in another borough. I need a little bit of space for myself.

[56:07] Derek Klena: Yeah, we're still trying to figure that out. We're trying to figure out if he wants to do his own place or yeah, lots of moving parts. But I think he's going to try to come out here this summer.

[56:17] Charlie Murphy: I love it. What about fatherhood? I mean, I know it's still early and you're in the exhaustion phase more than the like deep learning phase, which I'm still not in that. I'm feeling I'm still in the exhaustion phase. But any sort of like life lessons or stuff you feel like you're going to parlay into your artistic career?

[56:33] Derek Klena: It's really interesting. Once Dax was born, a lot of my performance anxiety kind of wasn't there as much anymore. Because and I think the biggest reason why was it was no longer about me. It was no longer my performance or what I had going on was no longer the most important part of my day. And you have a new reason of why you do what you do. And it puts things in perspective in a really cool way, stressful way, but a very cool way. And I think that's been like one of the coolest parts of being a father and about parenthood is like you just you don't change what you do, but you change the reason you do it. And it puts things in perspective in a very challenging way, but also like a very rewarding way.

And it's been so cool to watch him learn and take in this world and you learn a lot. I know you can probably attest to this. You learn so much just by watching them observe. And it's the coolest role you'll ever play. I know it's like super cliche, but it's like your whole world all of a sudden becomes about that. And it's no longer the rest is noise. And so I think that was really good for my sanity. Now, what's not good for my sanity is just how little time you have after you have a child like performance anxiety, but then also like preparation. Yeah, but then you have no time to do anything else. But you learn to balance and you learn how to compartmentalize your brain and and make it work. But, you know, I wouldn't trade it for anything. It's the coolest.

[58:11] Charlie Murphy: What about your parents? You know, a lot of our listeners are parents of whether, you know, for these episodes, I'm 16, 17, 18 year old, some of them really 19, 20, 21, 22, you know, whatever they're into their young careers. You know, what do you feel like your parents did well in terms of supporting you as a child in this industry? Was there anything that you go? If I go back, I would tell my parents maybe a little less of this more of this. Now, you know what? Being a parent now, I'm like, I don't really blame them for much because you kind of just you fly by the seat of your pants and you kind of just take it the way it comes. And there's a lot of ways that they handled situations. And now being a parent, I'm like, oh, I see why that was your instinct.

And so a lot of things become clearer. But also, like I was I was doing a lot when I was younger. And I look back and like, I don't work. I don't regret doing so much because it really did give me a lot of opportunity moving on later in my life. But I'm going to be a little bit more perceived a little bit more caution with how much we throw at Dax, I think just because. I do think there is power into having the time to do something well and looking back like I was doing so much and I and there are really no regrets, but I could have scaled back a little bit and and really excelled in a smaller amount of things rather than trying to spread my my net too wide.

[59:38] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I think finding finding the balance and the sweet spot for yourself is is important. And amazing for your parents that they supported you doing that. They're driving the community theater and baseball and they were so supportive. And I wouldn't be able to do it if my dad hadn't coached my teams growing up and given me the flexibility to like literally step off the mound. And when I was nine years old from pitching five innings in a game to go and make the second act to be Tom of Warwick and Camelot at a dinner theater 30 minutes away. Like that's that was that's a true story. And like I wouldn't have able to do those type of things if my parents weren't willing to do that. And yeah, so very, very lucky. And this is before the era of the pitch clock. So you're like, go, go. You got to pitch fast.

[1:00:20] Derek Klena: You got to you're on your own pitch clock. I got it. Yeah. No, my dad was like, all right, you're out. Mom's in the car.

[1:00:24] Charlie Murphy: That's awesome. What about my last question? Just advice to a young person. I mentioned all those, you know, now they're all blushing out there that people have been like, I'm obsessed with Derek Klena. But all of our 16, 17 year olds who go, I kind of want to be like you as I, you know, enter this industry. Any advice and just sort of stuff that you feel like you did well or stuff that you go, hey, if you want to be, you know, of course, their own version of a Derek Klena. But if they want to kind of step into into your footsteps, what kind of advice would you have for these young kids?

[1:00:53] Derek Klena: When I was in high school, listening to people like Aaron Tveit and Jonathan Groff and Spring Awakening and. And even Jeremy Jordan and Newsies, for instance, like these these big, iconic male, young, young leading roles that kind of came in and they represented it like like I've represented the people through like Anastasia and things like that. What this archetype of like this character or this type of person is whatever like this type of role is in the people that that play those roles. And early on in my career, and I think I ran into some trouble here as I was like, you know, I would go into auditions thinking like, oh, Aaron Tveit would be so great in this or Jeremy Jordan would be so great in this.

So I'm going to so I'm going to tailor my performance to what I think like how they would do it. I think you're setting yourself up for one one failure because you're not really going to you're going to be one trying to be someone else than also trying to be a character instead of just focusing on the qualities that the character possesses. But I think one, you don't so don't necessarily try to. To embody your role models or things that your role models, your role role models on stage now, what you can do is look at their performances and really dissect like what is it about the way that they do this that makes that really cool? To me, and what is it about the way that they played this role that stood out?

And and then try to incorporate that into your own performance, realize that that trait is really impressive. And that trait commands a lot of attention and that trait exudes confidence, things like that, that you can be like, OK, how do I incorporate that into my performance and who I am as an actor and bring forth that quality in myself the same way that those people I looked up to brought brought that quality out? I think that is a more constructive way of of looking at people that you really idolize and uses role models because you can you also leave room for yourself. You also leave room for individuality and doing what you do best and bringing that to a room, but also having in the back of your head like these are the people I really look up to and what they do well.

And now I'm taking those like bits and pieces and really trying to find like the melting pot of my own performance and and and using those to really like punch my qualities out. I think that's that's a fun project to for like young people to really like be self-analytical, but also, you know, try to try to find these different colors of themselves based on what they really admire. So I think that that is like advice that I would give to young people that that have listened to soundtracks or really look up to people in the industry or certain people's voices, don't try to copy, try to be an observer and a student of those qualities and incorporate them in your own way, because at the end of the day, only you can be you.

And and that's always going to be the most fulfilling and most successful in the room, because above all else, they're casting people. They're not casting a character. They're casting a person to bring a character to life. And they want to see the person. They don't want to see a caricature of something.

[1:04:06] Charlie Murphy: So well said anything else we need to plug.

[1:05:59] Charlie Murphy: I did write down a few that come to mind. But also, I did think there's an interesting nugget there in what Derek was saying about his realization, or his feeling at least, that he wasn't necessarily seeing a path to success in baseball for himself, despite obviously being very good at it. I mean, if you're good enough to make UCLA's team, that is very impressive. But I think it's an interesting way in which the arts are really different than sports. We've talked about this a bit on the pod before, but in sports, and I'd say in some ways, academia too, if you count things like grades or standardized tests, there is a lot of objective feedback coming at you constantly. There's literally a scoreboard happening in sports all the time.

And whether it's a ball or a strike, a make or a miss, or any kind of objective metric like, that was a 95-mile-an-hour fastball, or you are a six-foot-four southpaw. There are all of these ways in which people who have a certain expertise in a field can kind of gatekeep and advise young students with a sense of authority — right or wrong in their sense of authority — on the chance of that student having success in a field. You know, and even in these more objective fields, of course, the experts do get it wrong a lot. You know, we have these great examples of the current NBA MVP, Nikola Jokic, was a second-round draft pick. Nobody thought too much of him, except of course, he did make the NBA draft.

So obviously, people thought he had some talent because he made it to the NBA draft. But you know, we're talking about matters of degree here, right? But the knock on him was that he wasn't athletic enough. Often guys can be overlooked for being too short or unconventional in some ways by whatever the metric is. And you could say the same in other fields, right? Getting an LSAT score below X might mean it's hard to go to a certain law school, doesn't mean you won't end up being a successful lawyer. But my larger point is, in our field, there is just so much more subjectivity. It's not that talent doesn't exist, and it's not that you can't identify it with pretty good accuracy, right? To say, I think this person is really good and going to do really well in the college process or, you know, doing really well in their career, we can totally do that.

But it is just so much less definable of kind of what the range of outcomes might be. Whereas you might tell someone who's 5'3", that they don't really have a great chance to play in the NBA, you just don't tell Mugsy Bogues, there isn't really that same equivalent in the theater world of, I just don't think you'll be able to make it here, right? There are some objective markers in the singing and dance world for sure, though of course there's capacity to grow in both. But especially when you talk about something like acting, it is incredibly, incredibly difficult to say for sure that somebody won't be somebody else's cup of tea and be the lead in a sitcom or have some amazing huge success that, you know, you wouldn't have necessarily anticipated.

And that lack of objectivity leads to a really interesting economy of young actors who will end up pursuing this without those markers of success that they would expect in another industry. So here's a great example. Derek, despite already being objectively identified as a top 1% baseball player on earth, and it's probably at the top 0.05% to have made UCLA's team, Derek felt very confident, and I think probably correctly, that he wouldn't be able to make that leap from 1% or 0.05% or whatever top he was in, to the 0.001% of making Major League Baseball. But with, let's say, a relatively similar marker of success in booking an off-Broadway show and getting some interest from that Broadway casting director, let's call that, for, you know, the sake of argument, relatively equivalent to what it is to make UCLA's baseball team, he did have the confidence to make the less informed leap into the theater world.

And again, I think that was the right decision. It certainly turned out well for him. But for any of our parent listeners who don't know this theater world, that lack of objectivity can be really hard to swallow. You want that UCLA baseball person to say, hey, kid, if you stick with it, you really can make the majors. I really believe in you, right? You want that as a reason to stick with it. Or maybe the converse, what Derek might have gotten, of a well-meaning coach saying, hey, you're really good, but I don't think this is happening at a professional level. I think, you know, you're probably going to burn out in quad A or whatever, right? And you just aren't as likely to get that level of surety in the subjective theater world.

And the reason I'm saying all this is because that is not because teachers are just sugarcoating. It's not that theater people are just nice. It's that we don't have the kind of precision of metrics that you're going to have in the sports world. We do absolutely have the ability to see talent, but the scope of possible outcomes is just so much wider than it would be for a seven-foot-tall athletic basketball player or a five-foot-tall athletic basketball player, right? Where we could say, I can give you a real pretty good percentage. If you're seven feet tall and you're good at basketball, you're going to make the NBA. And if you're five feet tall, it's very, very unlikely, right? We just don't have those kinds of metrics in theater.

I also did want to make sure before I do some sweet sports to theater metaphors, I did also want to make sure that I just hit the idea of leaving school since it came up in the episode. I said then what I feel, which is that it is always a personal decision and a family decision. And I think can sometimes be the right one to leave school. What we didn't get into the episode, of course, is the downside of that risk, being that now you don't have a college degree. And what do you do? It's not like you'll necessarily know a hundred percent that you're in that spot two years or five years after you leave school that it's like, I definitely have to go back to school because I'm definitely not going to get the momentum that Derek got out of it.

So maybe now you're 27 and you do have to go back to school. Or at that point, maybe you just choose not to, but still switch paths. And people, of course, do all of those things. And of course, turn out fine. There's no one way to move through this world. I'm not a believer that you absolutely have to have a degree to do many things in life, right? But when we talk about not prioritizing, putting yourself in that position at 18, when you're looking at schools, that's why we say that. Again, that's just our college advice for anybody who've heard Leo or me say this, that we wouldn't make it a huge factor in choosing school of going, can I work while I'm in school? Because you may be presented with a really difficult decision, which in this case, it could be a great decision, but I would say in general is not wholly positive in that you're presenting yourself with potentially as much risk as upside, right?

When you move to New York City at 22, any job you get is just wholly amazing. It's just all opportunity, all upside. If you're in New York City in school at 19, and you book some type of work, it can lead to those tricky calls. Not necessarily bad as we see with Derek, but tricky. You know, and I certainly, I'm definitely a believer that I see value in school beyond just the degree and beyond just the training even, you know, as we see Derek meeting his future wife in school. But to any of our alumni listeners who are faced with that decision, I don't think the answers are ever easy. And I hope you have some mentors that you trust and can talk through that decision with you. I know Leo and I and our coaches have done lots of counseling on this with our students when it happens, and each has made their own different decision with it, right?

I don't think there's one right answer there. Okay, shall we get to the sports takeaways? I'm going to give these as teasers because I think I'm going to write this up into a blog post this month. But here are a few that come to mind. I'm not going to give you too much detail on all these, but these are lessons that you can potentially draw from sports or things that background in sports sort of help you and you can use in the theater world. The first is kinesthetic response. For those of you who don't know what that is, that's like the idea of like one action causing an impulsive reaction, something you do in viewpoints training and acting. But in so many sports, it is so necessary that you can react at the crack of a bat or the flicker of motion in one direction causes a counter reaction, right?

We do that on stage or we want that really finely tuned impulse on stage and certainly in the sports world as well. And I think that leads to another related one, which I'm going to call muscle memory as a form of presentness, which is that idea of like what it is to work on a skill hard enough that it's in your body and you don't have to think about it. You've trained yourself to know what to do so that you can just be in the moment. You know, I have that experience so often now getting to play sports. Sometimes I'm playing sports I know super well, like baseball with people who maybe don't always play those sports. And it can sometimes be hard to explain why one play is right or wrong if you've been doing it since you're six years old, because it's become insensual.

And you feel that on a basketball court. If a defender does this one thing, the offensive player is just supposed to cut to the hole and there's going to be a layup. And that exact same thing happens in an ensemble of actors who are trained when you're in a rehearsal process. Even if those people aren't trained together or even necessarily trained under the same methodology, there's just an instinct to go, this is what's right in this moment. You're just going to feel it in scene work. It would be good if somebody crossed here. This moment is looking for this kind of movement, or this scene needs this kind of rhythm, even if you can't articulate why. Just the hours, the 10,000 hours of having done that work, becomes muscle memory, becomes instinct, and then allows you just to be in the moment.

So you're not thinking about, should I cross? Should I do this? It's just something that happens naturally. Another one I really love, we've talked about a lot in the pod before, but working toward the best team result as opposed to the best individual result. That's certainly something you do in team sports, right? Sometimes we'll talk about the idea of keeping the ball moving versus ball stopping. That's kind of something in the NBA, but that can be critical on stage. The stage manager's always going, the show's five minutes longer, seven minutes longer, right? Even if what it means is that you don't get the big punchline or the big moment yourself because you've kind of moved it along, it's helping the team score.

It's helping the play to do better. It's helping the musical to find that moment better. And just having that awareness of what's going on in the scene, it allows you to work toward that goal, even in moments that you aren't speaking. So you're going to see the scene as the team event, what is happening on stage, as opposed to just like, blah, blah, blah, my line, blah, blah, blah, my line, just the moments when you're speaking. This concept is so huge in any team sport, and it's what sets good ensemble members apart from great ones, as well as sort of the equivalent of those glue guys in sports that they're talking about that kind of make the whole team cohere. And the last one I'll add in before the 10 more that I'm going to add in when I write this into a blog post is just the idea of becoming a good loser.

I think it's one of the biggest reasons I want my daughter to play sports. I think it is a skill set that we have lost as a society. Just to be able to say, you won, I lost, and shake hands at the end of it. We've talked about resiliency on the pod before, and how important it is in both sports and art, and how you learn to react to those moments of life. I think it's so critical to your success across the board. Sometimes this was just her moment and it wasn't mine. She was going to take that award or book that role, and I wasn't, even the greatest athletes of all time do not win every championship. They're competing against themselves to be the best that they can be, and with their team to be the best the team can be.

But that is the entirety of what they control. Somebody is going to win and the other 29 teams are going to lose. And that humility that it teaches you is so good for a healthy ego in this career. Because if you start viewing it as just you, the parts you're booking or not booking, what the world is giving you or not giving you, the recognition you're not getting, you're not viewing the healthy competition of what is actually happening, but you're becoming too solipsistic in your worldview, right? And that is not good for an artist. It's not good for somebody in sports, and it's not good for a human being. Well, there you go. I believe I just used the word solipsistic, so we know it's time to end the podcast.

This episode of Mapping the College Edition was produced by Meghan Cordier and Kelly Prenner-Gass. Please check us out at mappingthecollegeedition on Instagram if you want to see Derek's handsome face, and at mtca.com if you want to hear about our individual coaching services with MTCA. To my young artists out there mapping their journeys, should I do less softball talk and more kickball change talk? Let me know in the comments, okay? We are having a choreographer on very soon, and we'll see you next week.