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[0:00] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping The College Audition. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, Director of MTCA. That's Musical Theatre College Auditions. Check us out at mtca.com. And today we've got Gavin Mayer from Ithaca College in another one of our 2.0 update episodes.

[0:19] Charlie Murphy: For our newer listeners, another one of our college deep dive episodes where we explore the landscape of the college theater world and try to demystify this daunting audition process. And like so many of our other 2.0 episodes, this isn't really one of those huge sea change, regime change situations, but just another look into Ithaca and an update on where they are in 2026. So as always, I invite you to listen back to that episode with Courtney from a few years back for additional context. And, you know, that will tend to be our rhythm with these, you know, I'm going to keep having more newer programs on, you know, for all the schools we haven't had on, and there still are plenty of those schools that we haven't had on yet that are out there, but also continue giving you updates on some of the most popular schools so that those programs are still going to feel fresh and relevant in their updated episodes, right?

Definitely when there's a big program head change, I'm going to try to prioritize that to get them on as soon as possible. But I don't want our schools to be penalized just because they have some stability. And, you know, for me, it's always about a balance between, you know, all the different levels of competitiveness among the different programs as you get a sense of the entire landscape, knowing that not all of our listeners are going to go back five years and listen to all of the old episodes.

[1:34] Charlie Murphy: And speaking of five years, what a transition. This episode marks the end of season five of Mapping the College Edition. Can you believe it? This, of course, is a completely arbitrary marker that we use each year just to turn a string of episodes into a season at some point. But here we are. We've done it. The arbitrary marker, five seasons, over 250 episodes. Truly thrilling to see some of the breadth of this podcast in that time with all the schools we've talked to. And in many cases like here, we've talked to again some of the amazing artists, the different industry jobs we represented, the alumni, students and parents, all of it. I'm very proud of this podcast in the first five years and excited to keep growing and innovating with it.

And of course, as part of that innovation, if you ever have ideas, feedback, suggestions, please feel free to reach out to us at mailbag at mappingthecollegeedition.com. That's mailbag at mappingthecollegeedition.com for specific feedback and questions. And if you just have raves, no question, but you want to give us some raves, you know you can always do that by writing us a rating review on your podcast platform of choice. We really appreciate those reviews as we continue to grow our listenership. So thank you to all of you that have done that, have taken the time to do so. It really means a lot to me.

[2:49] Charlie Murphy: Every time I do that little call to action, I know I do it plenty. I just think about all of my favorite podcasts of whom I have reviewed precious few. I will admit it. I've reviewed precious few of my favorite podcasts, but I just want to say out there, just think about it. Bill Simmons doesn't need your review. You know, Ezra Klein, he does not need your rating. Pod Save America will still be saving America, whether you rate them or not. But this podcast, Mapping the College Edition, we're the little engine that could. And your rating and review, it's going to have some good bang for its buck. It can really have some impact. So get out there, get that rating review going. I hope you all have a great break.

I'm going to be back with little quick toppers for all of our summer episodes, which is for those interested, we're going to continue to do some of those new audio blogs. So I'm going to do new audio recordings of the blogs that I've written this year, but that I have not yet turned into podcast blogs yet or audio blog episodes yet. And then we'll do a couple re-airs of some of our favorite MTCA alumni episodes, including of course, spoiler alert, one of our alumni mentioned in this very episode who went to Ithaca, who just won a Tony because how could we help ourselves? Of course, we're going to re-air this episode because we have a student who won a Tony. Heck yeah. But then we're going to be back in mid-August with brand new episodes, including some exciting schools and a really fun alumni family series. I think you'll really enjoy that. So stay tuned for all of those and until then enjoy your break and enjoy this episode with Gavin Mayer from Ithaca College.

[4:14] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to be joined by Gavin Mayer. Gavin has a BA in theater from the University of Wyoming, a teaching license from the University of Northern Colorado, an MA in directing from Chicago College of Performing Arts at Roosevelt University, and an MFA in directing at Florida State University. That's tying our record. I think four is the most different list that we've read yet. Lots of schools. A lot of schools. He's worked as a resident director of the Arvada Center for the Arts and Humanities, directed all kinds of stuff, Elf the Musical, I'll Be Home for Christmas, The Mountaintop. I'm not going to read them all. Previously spent two years at the University of Nevada as an assistant professor and director of musical theater, and is now associate professor, chair, and associate dean of theater and dance performance at Ithaca College, which is still located in Ithaca, New York. They take classes of about 16, BFA MT, BFA acting, they get other BFAs as well, dance, choreography for musical theater, film, etc. Gavin, welcome on the show. How are you feeling today?

[5:16] Gavin Mayer: Thanks, thanks. I'm doing great. It's so great to be here with you. Thanks for having me.

[5:20] Charlie Murphy: We're so happy to have you. This is probably one of our most joyful 2.0 episodes. I feel like a lot of times we do a 2.0 episode because there's been like a big faculty change or something crazy has happened or something, you know, a new tenure. And I really feel like this hopefully can be a 2.0 version where if people listen to Courtney's episode already, if they haven't yet, I invite you to listen back as well. It can go in any order. But this can really be a little update. It's been almost five years. And I think we had Courtney on in the middle of like, just deep COVID. I mean, there's no way to not talk about that. And of course, thriving through it, but none of us were truly thriving in the way that hopefully we are here in 2026.

So is there anything else you'd want people to know about you in terms of your journey to the school or your background? But we're going to talk mostly about Ithaca and get some updates on sort of the school itself. But anything you'd want sort of from a personal perspective, people to know about you?

[6:05] Gavin Mayer: No, I think, you know, this is my 28th year of teaching. So I've been at this for a long time. And I'm just so grateful to be at a place like Ithaca College where, you know, the focus is on community. It's on preparing the students well for being in the industry. But we also really try to focus on creating really good human beings who are going to go out and take their artistry to make a change in the world. And that's what makes me passionate personally about being here is that I see that on a daily basis. I see these young people who are so excited about the training, but just as excited about thinking about how they can go out and use their education and their training to really make an impact on the world.

[6:44] Charlie Murphy: Look at this professional podcaster. He segues into asking the first question. You basically answered the first question. But let me phrase it. Let me still phrase that first question to you to think about, you know, you mentioned some of the things that would sort of distinguish an Ithaca student, or you certainly mentioned that the college, you know, especially in the context of some schools, when I ask them who they what their students are, they're sort of reacting to, you know, which students maybe choose to attend their school, right? Where, you know, within Ithaca, I know you're seeing students from all across the country. And I know with like RMTCA students, like a lot of them will have Ithaca and a couple other really competitive options and have that choice to make.

So I'd love to kind of maybe frame this question in the context of like, we just got through May. Who was deciding on you? Why they decided? What made them go, I think Ithaca is right for me, as opposed to a Syracuse or a Volco or other schools that they might have been deciding between as they were doing that?

[7:36] Gavin Mayer: Yeah, you know, I think, again, the community aspect of what we focus on here is really important. I think our students really enjoy spending time with each other. And I think they enjoy spending time with the faculty. I think we try to create an atmosphere of support. And thinking about, you know, I know, competition is a big piece in a lot of programs. And we try to neutralize that in that we really try to create a place where students feel supported and challenged by their peers in a way that's going to help them grow. But really thinking about how one person's victory is somebody else's victory, too, right? Because we're all in this community together, we're all trying to build each other up and trying to challenge each other to become the best artists that we can.

And I think, I think that as a faculty member, too, I mean, these students have made me such a better artist when it comes to my own directing my own writing. They just ask such smart questions. You know, I think we're also really looking for kind people, we just really want to attract kind people who want to be in the room and want to support everyone else in the room and are thinking just as much about how they can contribute to someone else's growth just as much as their own. You know, I think, as far as, you know, if we're talking about what makes Ithaca unique, I think that's one thing of it, one aspect of it for sure.

[8:53] Gavin Mayer: You know, I think also what's exciting about Ithaca is while a lot of colleges are contracting, we're actually expanding our offerings. Because Ithaca was founded as a music conservatory back in 1892. The arts have always been at the foundation of this organization, of this college. Theater was the second major added in 1897. So, you know, we've been at this a long time. We have a long legacy. And I think, you know, I think that just speaks to the level of support that the college has, but also how the students feel supported here.

[9:24] Charlie Murphy: It's so interesting, the hearing that description. I think I would, strikes me as a description of Ithaca that I think many of our students would support and would say, this is what attracted me to Ithaca. It's interesting hearing, you know, Ali Lewis Borski is one of our MTCA alum, just Tony nominated, we're so excited. And the way he was talking about Ithaca, you know, and that certainly is his personality, I think very kind, very community oriented. He also was sort of describing it in a way of like, that's what enabled him to push himself so much and find the rigor. It's interesting how sort of the other end of rigor can be, you know, we talk about in a safe environment, in a support environment, you can also be most competitive with yourself because you're not competing against other people or whatever. But for him, he felt locked into, you know, his competitive drive, I guess, coming out of a non-competitive environment or supportive environment.

[10:14] Gavin Mayer: Yeah. And I think Ali is the perfect example of the student who thrives here. You know, somebody who is really focused on the training, who really is in the room doing the work. But I think sometimes when we think about rigor, we think about the intensity and the challenge of it, but there's so much joy in rigor as well. And I think sometimes that gets left to the side. We don't think we're making progress if it's just not hard, you know, if it's got to be difficult. But I think, you know, the other side of that is joy. And I think in Ali's time here, that's certainly what I saw was, you know, a really hard worker who also found the joy, but was just really kind and just wanted everyone in the room to succeed.

[10:49] Charlie Murphy: Even in the way that he talks about, like, give me notes. It wasn't like, give me notes, modulating. It was like, yeah, give me notes. I can't wait.

[10:54] Gavin Mayer: Exactly. Yes.

[10:55] Charlie Murphy: Like it was a joyful rigor.

[10:58] Gavin Mayer: Yeah. And I think that's exactly who we're looking for. I think that's really, you know, my philosophy has always been you can make kind people talented, but you can't always make talented people kind. And I think like that has really proven itself in my time at Ithaca is we've got these students, and when you're kind and open and have, you know, you have to be talented to begin with, but when you have that openness and that vulnerability and that availability, it just makes the work we can do with those students just so much greater. It just, it just intensifies and multiplies the work and the growth that can happen.

[11:33] Charlie Murphy: I'm at a hard disagree with that. I think you can make talented people kind. We need three years of therapy. Get me in a room. Because underneath that unkindness, there's kindness underneath. There's love underneath.

[11:42] Gavin Mayer: This is true.

[11:43] Charlie Murphy: I deeply believe this. Our podcast listeners all know that. They're all going to be kind.

[11:47] Gavin Mayer: Let's talk a little bit about the curriculum. So we're talking about, you know, Courtney had given us some of that, you know, I'd love to hear how it's changed in those couple of years and any updates you've made in the past four or five years, but also just a little bit of a walkthrough for those who haven't heard that episode of like, what does the acting musical theater curriculum look like, especially in terms of the, you know, the progression of the training over the course of four years?

[12:07] Gavin Mayer: Yeah. You know, I think what's exciting about Ithaca's program is that for the first two years, we don't delineate between actors and musical theater majors. They take all of their foundational studio acting classes together. Faculty doesn't know when they walk in the room, who's a musical theater major and who's an acting major. And we try to keep those classes small, but we try to keep them integrated because we want them to create a community of themselves as performance majors. And so for the first two years, they take the acting studio classes together, which I think pushes them to really grow and think about their artistry from each other's point of view, which makes them stronger performers.

And it's not until the second year where they sort of go start going their different directions. The acting majors go more towards film and television and the musical theater majors. That's when they start their musical theater workshop series in the second semester of their sophomore year.

[12:56] Gavin Mayer: So they're taking dance classes all the way throughout, but they take their music theory classes the first two years of their training. And then Musical Theater Workshop One happens second semester of their second year. And then they start the Musical Theater Workshop sequence, which is Musical Theater Workshop Two junior year, which is audition techniques. And then they move into Musical Theater Workshop Three first semester of their senior year, which is ensemble building. How do you play as a member of an ensemble? How do you make artistic choices and acting choices as a member of an ensemble and dance? They take a dance in the Musical Theater class. And then they take a Musical Theater Workshop Four class, which is where our showcase and also where just sort of what else do we want to explore?

And what else do we want to send you, prepare you for before we send you out on your way? I think the other thing that's unique about our program is that we have a London Center that students can attend second semester. The Musical Theater majors go second semester of their junior year. And what's really unique about our program is that it's baked into the curriculum. So it is Ithaca College in London. It's our London Center. It's been there since 1973. Students aren't required to go, but I would say about 95% of the students do go. And they take such exciting classes over there. They take London Theater Immersion, where they go and see 15, 20 shows. And then they talk about them and they write about them.

They take a London Theater Tour. They take an acting class. They take a stage combat class. It's a really exciting time for them just to sort of stretch their wings and go out and be a more global citizen and bring that artistry back. And what's cool about that is when they come back, they're just transformed people. That semester abroad really, really pushes them to be independent and make decisions for themselves. But it's exciting because, again, it's baked into our curriculum. So it's not like a consortium program where you have to hope that the classes are going to transfer back. They are Ithaca College classes in London.

[14:56] Charlie Murphy: And remind me, when do people start performing in Ithaca? So when do freshmen, sophomore, junior, when do you begin actual doing sort of main stage performances?

[15:01] Gavin Mayer: They are required to audition the minute they get on campus. We want to get to know them right away. We have some scaffolded experiences that are just sort of built into their experience. But they're auditioning for shows the minute they get onto campus. So we try to put them into, you know, we want to get them into studios as soon as possible. It's really interesting in the context of that timing of end of junior year, because there's something so nice about that for study abroad. You know, some schools do it first semester senior year. It can be a little tricky, I feel like, with the showcase of it all. If you want to focus on entering the business and then you feel a little behind, depending.

But I think for other schools, if you start performing a little later, that second semester junior is like, this is my time for the main stage production. It's tricky figuring out what semester different schools use study abroad. But I think it makes a lot of sense timing wise. Would you talk to me about the, you know, is there something that you think Ithaca students as they're out in the professional world are known for in terms of acting, singing, dancing? I mean, certainly there's a focus on the acting training. Would you say they're known, you know, Ithaca musical theater performers are known specifically as actors, more singers, more as dancers?

[16:03] Gavin Mayer: Well, I think, you know, we certainly prepare students to be well prepared in all three areas. But I would say that because our musical theater program, when it was developed, you know, 40 years ago, was built on the acting program and the strength of the acting program. I would say that has always been at the forefront of our training. They get great vocal training, they get great dance training. But I think because of our intensity around the actor training, I think that's probably what our students are really most well known for as they get out into the industry is that acting piece for sure.

[16:39] Charlie Murphy: And can you just give from the flip side, you mentioned some of this in the curriculum, but as an actor, as a BFA actor, what kind of musical theater opportunities do I have in terms of the membrane going that way?

[16:46] Gavin Mayer: Yeah. So students audition for musical theater majors are auditioning for plays. Acting majors, if they want to, can audition for musicals. We have lots of crossover where that's concerned. I think, you know, our goal is to give actors an opportunity to be exposed to musical theater. There's an intro to musical theater workshop class where they can go in and just learn the basics of musical theater song interpretation. That's not as intense as the musical theater workshop class, but it helps them prepare for going into a singing audition and having confidence and having a couple of pieces in their book. There's the dance classes, you know, we're starting the, we are the first program in the nation that we can find that has a BFA specifically in dance for choreography and dance in musical theater, which we're launching this upcoming year.

We've got our first class coming in. And I think that's going to be a really unique experience for all of our students. You know, the acting majors take dance classes. The musical theater majors are going to be in dance classes with those people and then also be in the pieces that they're choreographing. So I think as we're expanding, as I was saying earlier, you know, some schools are contracting and we're expanding it at the college. We're really excited about how we're sort of re-envisioning how we can grow. And this is one place that we really feel like we can grow and is going to complement all of the students, all of the different degrees education by that, by more of that crossover.

[18:09] Charlie Murphy: I love it. And I love the phrase, I think he's a performer mindset or something. You're talking about the individuals as you get launched into the world. I think that that's such a smart way to think of it as like, you're going to be paid to be a performer. What are your specific skills that you'll get paid for? They're not going to lump you into MT actor. It's like, but are you an actor who sings? Okay. Okay. That might be one lane. Are you an amazing singer? And you're doing concerts and you're playing those kinds of roles, you know, so almost like in the individual skills of it, it's not going to form the way degrees form.

[18:36] Gavin Mayer: Yeah. And I just, if I can talk about that for just a second, we have a pedagogical approach to casting, which means we try to spread opportunity and experience across the majors. So we want them to walk out of here with something meaningful on their resume for sure, you know, having a full character and a full arc in a musical. But we also want you to be able to do a reading of a new musical because that's where the work is out in the industry. We also want you to be able to, to be in a play. We, you know, we want there to be a variety of experiences so that you're not just locked into one experience in one area of expertise. We want you to be able to walk out being able to do a plethora of things. And I think we really structured the curriculum and the opportunities in a way that promotes that.

[19:09] Charlie Murphy: I love it. Um, let's talk a little bit about, um, outside of the theater program. So I'd love to first start academically and then want to get a little bit of the college sense, you know, do you have a sense of the percentage of their classes that they're taking that are artistic? If you want to, if you want to think about it in terms of the, um, credits, that's fine. Or the hours, how much time am I spending as a BFAMT doing acting, singing, dancing classes versus the minor classes if they're outside of the theater program?

[19:36] Gavin Mayer: Yeah. So we are a conservatory style training within a liberal arts context. So it's really intense artistic training, especially for the musical theater majors. Um, you know, it's, it's about 15 to 17 credits every semester. Um, the first two years, especially our arts intensive, and then we start introducing your gen eds or what we call your ICCs. Um, but there's a lot of double dipping, especially if you go to London, there's lots of double dipping where these, where some of the classes that are required for the major also satisfy some of the gen ed requirements. So it, it feels like a conservatory, but, uh, you know, I would say the majority of your time is going to be in the acting studio, the dance studio or the music studio.

Meaning like you're taking one class a semester outside of the theater school, outside of school, two classes. What does it look like in terms of if somebody wanted to get a minor, what would that look like if they wanted to get a minor in psychology or something that was not theater related?

[20:31] Gavin Mayer: Yeah, I would say, um, minors are tough with our program because it's 116 of 120 credits are required. So 116 of those 120 credits are already accounted for. Now to say we also have students who come in with a very clear vision of, of what they, what they might want to want minor in. And so we're able to fit that in, but it just takes a lot of pre-planning. We just had a musical theater major graduate with a history in my, uh, a minor in history, and she was able to do it without summer classes. She was able to fit it all in and, and it was sort of using some of those ICC or those gen ed classes to double dip with the minor. So it's, it's tough, but it's, it's doable if you have a clear picture of what you want to do early on in your process. It sounds like in general, then a possibility of a double major would not be possible for most people.

[21:14] Gavin Mayer: Yeah, no double majoring I think would, that would take five or six years probably.

[21:23] Charlie Murphy: Give me a little bit of the experience of the college. I mean, we know it's going to be cold in the winter for those who are not in New Yorkers or not East coasters, but like what is the experience? How would you describe not just the theater program, but the experience of the school? And then also maybe a little bit, if you can, the experience of like what an Ithaca college student is outside of the theater program.

[21:42] Gavin Mayer: Yeah. You know, Ithaca, um, is an absolutely stunning place to live. It's a great place. Oh my, yes, it is gorgeous. Um, you know, what's great about Ithaca is I, I feel like it's, um, you know, we share the town with Cornell. So Cornell university is here. So it's a college town. So everything here is geared towards the college student. And, uh, we're up on a hill that overlooks the lake. It's absolutely beautiful. It's gorgeous. We're a college of about 4,200 students. So we're a small liberal arts college. Um, but I, I think the town itself is, you know, when, when alumni come back, they, they just, they ache to come back and just sort of be in this place. It's so full of nature, you know, we're, we're, we're three minutes away from a hike through a forest or a hike on a waterfall.

There's a hundred waterfalls in the town of Ithaca, New York. Um, it's, it's just a stunningly breathtaking place to do your work and to train because there's just this Zen nature about being in somewhere, being somewhere that's so in touch with nature and is so connected to nature. I mean, the town is just so integrated to the natural landscape of, of the area. Um, so I think, uh, it's, it's just a great place to sort of escape and be able to really focus on the thing you want to focus on, which is the training. We're still close enough to the city that it's an easy drive to get down there. Um, but it's also just a place where it feels like you can step out of the theater building and just be in nature and take a break from the world.

[23:01] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. And what percentage of your, you don't have to have an exact percentage here, but how many of your theater students have, if I'm going to describe that sort of typical, what you've described to me as, which I think is true of many of our students who go end up going there, have a sort of very natural, sometimes described as crunchy granola kind of feel to them, right? How, how much of that is true in the theater program versus if I was like a sports bro and I was like, I don't know, like Ithaca, like how, how out of place would I feel if I was walking in?

[23:40] Gavin Mayer: You know, I don't think you'd feel out of place at all. I think, um, that's what's, that's, what's beautiful about being in a college town is that, and, and especially in a theater department, it is come as you are, you know, I think as students spend time here, I see them relax more. I see them get more comfortable with themselves and get more comfortable just, and I think it's the space that they have to breathe and to exist here really supports that. But I think that's what's, that's what's beautiful about being in this town and on this campus is, you know, come as you are, we're, we're just excited to, to have anybody who's excited about becoming a better artist.

[24:12] Charlie Murphy: I love it. All right. Talk to me, you mentioned that showcase class. Just talking to me about what, what that last year especially is in terms of preparation. We've just, we're, we just finished recording and they're about to release in a week, I think now, as I record this, our showcases on showcases series. So we're like doing a little bit of a deep dive into what they look like. So I'd love to hear like, what does that look like from a, how they're preparing over the course of the year, how they're choosing material and then what the showcase experience is itself.

[25:01] Gavin Mayer: Yeah. So one thing that's unique about Ithaca college is that we have a, a one week semester, the week before spring or one week, um, intensive the week before spring break that all the seniors in the theater department go to New York city for a week. It's called field studies and they take week long panels with our alums who are working in the business. And it's everybody from the people who are producing the Broadway shows that have been there for since, you know, the eighties, all the way to people who just graduated two years ago. And they're saying, Hey, you're getting ready to move to New York. I wish I would've known this two years ago when I was getting ready to move here and everybody in between.

And it's during that week that we hold our showcase. And so our showcase preparation, um, starts, uh, you know, that's part of the reason that we've moved the class to the junior year. So they're starting to think about it. That audition prep class is already putting them in the mindset of, Oh, okay. This is moving into a vocation where I really need to start thinking about how am I going to brand myself? How am I going to think about myself? How do I want to present myself? So they have that entire semester in that class to really start thinking about that. And then when they get back from London, um, it's in that musical theater workshop three class where they really start thinking about material and solidifying some of those choices so that when we move into second semester, uh, in musical theater workshop four, we're really just.

[27:23] Charlie Murphy: Is the experience of it like as an educational experience, which it is the last thing you do in college? I mean, you know, I went to Carnegie Mellon. I remember that experience of like, it felt like it was me being shown off to the industry and it was a test. It was as opposed to being like, I wish I'd had more of an educational mindset of like, just learn what it is to meet these agents and talk, knowing you're going to do this a lot of different times in your career. It's not the one time to have it all happen. Yeah. And I think that's interesting because that's what I hear most of the seniors after the experience say, you know, like, oh, that was not as that was not as intimidating. That was not as scary.

That was not as intense as I thought it was going to be. And so I think we just try to manage, you know, try to manage it in a way that they feel excited and ready. And also what you're saying, it's an educational experience just as much as anything else. It is not the defining moment of their career. It also just makes all those things feel more sustainable. If you're like like an audition, you're like, I'm going up and trying to get a callback. So if I don't book it, I'm a failure. It's like, yeah, I'm just trying to show up and do my good work. Like, if you can think of that as a showcase of like, I'm coming here to do my best work and learn that it's just much better. That part of partially like a realization really came out of a school where it was almost entirely that it was almost entirely an educational experience. And I was like, it's actually kind of nice to see it that way and not have the pressure of Broadway's calling tomorrow for the good ones and the bad ones or failures or.

[28:44] Gavin Mayer: Yeah, that's exactly right. Let's talk a little bit about cost. So I imagine this hasn't changed radically in the past five years. Tuition looks like it's about 60,000, 59,000, 440. It's what we have here. What does that look like in terms of most of your students' ability to bring that down from an academic perspective, from a talent merit, talent based perspective, need based? How does it work in terms of what most students are actually going to end up paying?

[29:04] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, you know, for merit, the average Ithaca College student gets about between 30 and 35 thousand dollars worth of merit depending on their individual financial aid needs. I would say that's, you know, again, that's the average. And then there's there's but that that includes talent, academics. Combined is 35, about 25 left over there.

[29:34] Gavin Mayer: Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of all combined into one pot in the merit offer.

[29:39] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. And is that how does that work with you guys and negotiation in terms of the you know, if we're at the end of the year and I do have these options I'm debating between is there any room for movement once I've gotten my initial offer and I'm going, hey, Gavin, can you help me out or how does that work with with you guys?

[29:51] Gavin Mayer: Yeah, there's sometimes a little bit of room. It's you know, what we try to do is make our first offer our best offer just so that just so that we want to give the student as much information and as much time to make that decision so that they don't feel like they have to go back and forth. So we really try to make our first offer our best offer, which which is what the college which goes through the college in the student of financial services, the Office of Student Financial Services. That's where it goes through. So so we're not stressing the student out. We try to create a clear picture on that very first offer as much as possible.

[30:20] Charlie Murphy: Do you have a sense, you know, from again, we went through this, I guess, three weeks ago, May 1st, you know, as those students are making those final decisions, do you get a sense of why they end up signing on the dotted line and saying, hey, Ithaca is the school for me. I'm coming here. Or when you hear the opposite, you hear people say, hey, it was between you and another school. I went with the other school because of X. Like, do you get a sense of that from different schools or different students about why they choose one or the other?

[30:51] Gavin Mayer: I can't say that I you know, we we always reach out to students and say, hey, if you have any feedback about why you chose one school over us, we'd love to hear the feedback. And, you know, it's it's usually just, you know, Ithaca, we're in that competition. It's always like I can't make a bad decision here is sort of the feedback that I get from students is, you know, it was it was there was nothing that made the decision more than just my intuition. And, you know, I think for the students who do choose us, I think, you know, when they have the opportunity to come visit campus and they get to see the work that's happening in the studios and they get a chance to sit in on the classes, like as we let admitted students do, I think they really get a sense of the work that we do with students, the way the students interact with each other.

They really get to spend time with our students. We really try to say to our students, tell them the truth. We want them you know, we want we want the students to get a real picture of what your experience is here. So we try not to ask, you know, try not to curate the students. We try not to ask them to edit anything that they're going to say. We want the students to really understand what their experience at Ithaca College is going to be like when they come here.

[32:20] Charlie Murphy: I love it. OK, we're gonna take a short break and on the back end, we'll talk a little bit more about the audition admission process. So we're back in a flash.

[32:30] Gavin Mayer: All right. We are back with Gavin Mayer. We're going to talk a little bit about the audition admission process. I'm going to ask you this question a little differently because it's how I've been asking more recently for our true newbie newbies to the process. Can you just talk a little bit about how the application process works for like timing of prescreen versus application and then what what I'm going to go through as I potentially meet you in a digital platform and I meet you in person at a unified, et cetera. So kind of what if you can talk me through the overview of the process of like what they receive, what you receive, what they send into you and then how we're going to meet you in different platforms.

[33:09] Gavin Mayer: Yeah. So we're we currently go through get accepted. So we're using the same platform that a lot of other schools are using. And we we try to stick with that because we want to try to make it as easy for the student as possible when they're familiar with the platform. Let's just let them do what they know and feel comfortable with. This already feels like such a stressful moment that we want to support them as much as possible. Our application window usually opens around September 1st or September 15th, and then we close on December 1st for MT applications. You're going to send some prescreens into us for musical theater. You're going to send in two songs. You're going to send in two monologues and then a wild card if you're interested in doing a wild card.

And, you know, that's always fun to watch to get to know the students a little bit more. And then we review those as faculty and we try to turn them around as quickly as possible so that students can start making their audition plans as soon as they hear back from us. So if you make it past the prescreen then you'll be invited to a live audition and that live audition can happen. We try to remove as many barriers as possible so that can happen at Unifieds, at any of the Unifieds locations. We also have a couple of dates on campus and we also audition via Zoom because we do know that that's what might be most feasible for some students.

[34:18] Charlie Murphy: And I would say I think sometimes there's some concern that a Zoom audition lessens the possibility of getting into the school just because you're not actually physically on campus. And I would say, you know, I would just reassure people that, at least from the Ithaca College point of view, we really tried to take that into consideration and give those students just as much of an opportunity and take that under consideration so that they know that we understand the challenges of auditioning over Zoom. We also want to get to know you, you know, as we're trying to build this community year by year, we want to get to know the students. So we're going to, in a live audition, we're probably going to ask you some questions, get a sense of who you are.

We want to make sure that this is the right fit for both of us. I think it's important for students to remember that it's not the student, it's not the faculty and the schools that are in control, it's really the student, right? This needs to be just as much of a decision on the student's part, following their intuition, making sure that the boxes are getting checked on their needs for what they're looking for in a program just as much as it is the faculty feeling like it's a good fit.

[35:20] Gavin Mayer: And so I think that's really important for students to consider. You know, I was a high school teacher for 12 years before I got into professional directing, and so I've seen both sides of this, and I think what I would say to students is, you know, we really, you don't have to be perfect for us. We want you to be available, we want to see the rawness, we want to see the potential, and we're considering that just as much as we're considering anything else because we understand that from 18 to 22 are very formative years and there's lots of growth and change that can happen in that time. And so we really want to, you know, we're really looking for people who are, who have the chops to do the work that needs to be done, but also have the mindset that they want to grow and that they want to be a part of a community.

[36:06] Charlie Murphy: This is, you're really living up to your, when we started this podcast interview the exact same way, you just asked yourself like six questions that I normally ask and you answered them all so beautifully. Let me just double click on a couple of those. You know, can you talk to me through your process of viewing the pre-screens?

[36:17] Gavin Mayer: Yeah. If there's any difference from the way, what you'd be looking for in a pre-screen, obviously I imagine a lot of it is the same stuff you'd look for in a live edition, but as you're looking at a pre-screen and going, hey, I think I might want to pass this pre-screen, you know, I think Courtney might have told us then if you have a sense of like, hey, we see about these many pre-screens and we do about this many passes, how do we get from A to B, you know, what does that look like in terms of that cut down?

[36:38] Gavin Mayer: Yeah. So we see, um, we usually send about a third of the pre-screens to live auditions. And for us, that's between 17 and 1800 total that we watch on average. I would say the past couple of years, it's been more than that, but I would say on average, since I've been here, it's been about 17 or 1800 and we send about a third of those to live auditions.

[37:01] Charlie Murphy: Great. So you see in 1800 time, you're sending about 600 to live. What makes somebody seem in the 1200 versus in the 600, if you're looking at the videos, like what are you, you know, some of those things you're talking about, interview availability, I imagine some of that you might be sniffing for a little bit more in the live audition, whether it's Zoom or in person, what are you looking for in the pre-screen that might go, hey, this feels like this person has, has what we're looking for or not.

[37:21] Gavin Mayer: Yeah. I think for me, it's, it's about the connection to the material that they present. That's one thing that really stands out to me. I want to see, I don't want you to try to read my mind and sing the song that you think I want to hear. I want to see the song or hear the monologue that you really have a connection to that. You really have a point of view on something that you can really have a unique take, something that still makes sense within the context of the player, the song or the show, but something that's like, oh, here's my interpretation of it. This is how I see this character. So that's the one thing that I'm always really interested in is how does somebody have a point of view or a take on something that may not be obvious but is really intriguing and interesting and something that I can just see that they have a passion and a connection to.

[38:03] Charlie Murphy: Yep. I love it. And then I want to just, because you mentioned the wild card, just double click on that. How are you viewing that? So what are, obviously we can't say I'm looking for you to juggle in this wild card, but what, when you see it makes you go, if somebody was on the edge, if somebody, you know, if it wasn't, what do you like to see in a wild card or how do you view and use those?

[38:21] Gavin Mayer: Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think it's sort of the same thing. I want to see something about the person. I want to see something about who they are, how they see the world, how they want their artistry to affect the world. I think sometimes it's people using wild cards, again, in a way that they're thinking, what does he want to see or what does the person watching this want to see? What's the thing that's going to get me through?

[39:20] Gavin Mayer: You've mentioned the interview and that you really want it to be a two-way experience. What are you sniffing for on your end when you're doing the interview? You're asking questions of, you know, you see the talent, but of course, you're going to see 600 talented kids and we're going to end up with 16, right? So the cut from 18 to 6 is tough, 600, and then from 600 to eventually maybe more than total of 16, but not that many more. What is that experience then of going, what you're looking for, the questions you're asking, what you might be looking for in terms of some of those things that you might be getting back from the student? You know, for a lot of the questions, it may have nothing to do with theater at all.

I just want to get to know you as a person, you know, and I don't think that we have a set. We don't have a set of questions that we ask when we sort of move into that phase of it. You know, sometimes the audition itself just gives us all the information we need, and then sometimes if we want to dig a little bit deeper, it's just getting to know the individual. What do you do when you're not doing theater? You know, where would you see yourself in 10 years, whether or not you had this degree? What's important to you? I mean, it's just, again, trying to get to know who the person is and what they care about and getting a sense of vulnerability, getting a sense of growth mindset. That's a big thing for us here is that we want a growth mindset, how you take the notes and the feedback that you get on your pieces, how if we spend some time coaching them, you know, especially I would say the sense of resilience.

That's one thing that we're interested in is how do you come back when you get a tough note or when you get some tough news or when you get some tough notes or we want to hear you talk about that, because that's so important in this industry. So I think, again, there's no specific set of questions. I think sometimes just who's in the room. We want to get to know this person, this individual standing in front of us. And I think that's something else that just makes us unique. We are interested in creating whole, well-rounded human beings and artists who can do the thing that their BFA is telling them they can do. So that's a piece of who they are, but not their complete identity. We want to create really well-rounded human beings and artists.

[41:30] Charlie Murphy: I love it. I love the double click on the idea of availability. I mean, I love the idea of availability as a skill set as an artist. I'm not sure that every 17-year-old or we have a lot of parent listeners would even think of that as a skill set. You know, certainly that's something I guess we can see when you give an adjustment of how they take the adjustments. But are there other ways that you're kind of looking for availability in the way that the students approach the work? Or how do you sniff for availability if you're going, is this person available or not?

[41:57] Gavin Mayer: Yeah, I think there's something about curiosity. You know, the way the students are curious about the work that they're doing, the feedback that they're getting, the school itself, the questions they might have about who we are and what they're going to experience here. You know, being able to talk about their resume, thinking about what have they learned from the shows that they've been doing, you know, rather than just thinking about them as a checklist. But, you know, how being able to articulate I had these experiences and this is what I learned from them. This is how I grew. You know, I think sometimes we just stop short of like, here's the number of shows that I've done versus thinking about the quality of experience that you had in those shows and what you took away from each one of them.

Because I think that's the gift of being a theater artist, is that every show is its unique little cosmos. And if we allow ourselves, we can really jump into that cosmos and be changed and affected by it and then take what we learned from that into the next little show or cosmos that we're going into. And so I think those are things that I think about when I think about availability is just an openness, a willingness to learn, a curiosity, a desire to just refine my artistry and think about it in a more full way than just this is my place. This is my identity, my identity as a musical theater major.

[43:13] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, totally makes sense. And it feels like one of those things that if you can show it, not tell it, you know, people can say I have a growth mindset or look, I have this prepared question. That's really good. It's like sometimes we sense that more from a human being. Do they seem genuinely curious? Not that you had the prepared question, but you actually seem that way.

[43:33] Gavin Mayer: That's exactly right. What about in the academic side of things? Do you look at the academic application? Do you look at essays or their grades or SATs or letters of recommendation? How do you interact with the academic application yourself?

[43:45] Gavin Mayer: So, you know, we rely on our admissions team to do that part of the work to make sure that they're going to be a successful student here at Ithaca College. So we lean on them to do a lot of that work for us in our department. We're certainly curious about that. We want to know them as a whole student. But we really are focusing primarily on what's being presented to us in terms of the music, the dance, the acting portions of it. And then we might go as we're thinking about admission because we have such a large pool. We might go back during the admissions process when we're thinking about who are the people that we want to invite to admit. We might do a little more deep dive on that aspect of it. And for you, the fact that they are invited from a prescreen does not yet mean that they're academically fully passed the college.

[44:28] Gavin Mayer: That's correct. They have to get admission from both. So sometimes admissions just reaches out to us and says the student doesn't have the GPA, the fill in the blank to get through the admissions barrier for Ithaca College. But we try to get everybody through the prescreen process and do that at the same time so that, you know, those conversations are happening at the same time.

[44:56] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I love it. Is there anything else as you think about getting down to that 16-ish number that you're looking for? Is there anything else you're thinking about as you fill out a class? I mean, you mentioned all these kind of qualities of human beings that you're bringing in. Are you thinking about gender balance in your class and height and size and racial diversity, diversity of ability? You think about geographical balance of how do you think about the 16 people you're putting together? Or you could think about it across the four years of school. How do you think about that cohort that you're bringing together?

[45:24] Gavin Mayer: You know, I think when we're looking at it, we're looking at trying to bring the class together. So I don't think we're trying to compare them to any of the classes above them. We're really trying to look at them as a whole group of people and thinking back to their looking at their audition forms, looking at their auditions in totality and just trying to bring together a community of people. I would say everything you mentioned is important to us as far as making sure that we have a full representation of voice types so that we have a complete class so that as we're moving through and producing works, we have what we need. But I would say we don't necessarily focus on I think we're looking to put 16 individuals together more than we're looking to put together any sort of demographic equation. Everything you mentioned is important to us and the 16 individuals that make up the class carry equal weight.

[46:22] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I love it. Let's move to a wrap and I just would love to. You know, we have a lot of parent listeners and I know you've gotten to interact with the parents a lot throughout this process and their involvement in it. Do you have any advice for parents as they're thinking about how do I best support my child? You know, either from the end of, hey, my kid's a freshman and we're just beginning this process or some will often listen as seniors. I'm deciding between the six admits and which three we're going to go visit or however, you know, thinking about that way. How do you advise parents in terms of how they can guide their kids in this process?

[46:52] Gavin Mayer: That's a great question. And that could be a 24-part podcast. And so I mean, I got you for 12 more minutes. You want to give me a 12-minute answer? I'll do it. That's great, man. You know, it's tough as a parent. You got to know that you got to tell that line of how do I support and how do I let them sort of figure this out for themselves? They're the ones who have to wake up every morning, go live their lives and be excited for what they're going to do and open their eyes in that dorm bed and be excited to go to those classes. And I think what I would say is find that balance of how can I support and ask the right questions and help them think about the right things as they're trying to make this decision?

And then how do I let them drive the car when it's making these decisions, putting guardrails around it? You know, when you're thinking about the financial aspect of it, you're thinking about the geographical aspect of it, thinking about your student and how you know them as an individual. And, you know, I've seen the extremes where parents are the ones reaching out to the colleges and driving that. And that sort of doesn't always feel like it's the best decision from my point of view. I think the students are really the ones who should be reaching out, asking the questions. It's a way not only for them to take accountability and responsibility for their future, but it's also a way for them to learn some independence and to advocate for themselves.

And I think that's a really important skill at this point in their life, especially as they're getting ready to go to college. But then again, I think it's important to know your student well enough to help them think about the right things, to help create that checklist of what they're looking for in a school, what they're looking for in a program, what the strengths of a particular program are, what might be missing from a program that they're interested in. I have great sympathy for parents. I can only imagine what a challenging moment this must be negotiating such a big decision in such an intense industry. You know, it's not like other majors where you just say, well, this is where I'm going to go to school and this is what I'm going to major in.

You know, this is a much different process. And just to find the best way to support that, knowing when to give space and knowing when to lean in a little bit, I think is really important. The last thing that I will say is I'm an incredibly spiritual person and I am a firm believer that every person is going to walk through the door that's right for them. And sometimes the door we think is right for us, we get a 90-degree turn and we realize like, oh, there was a door over there that was actually the right one for me. I've experienced this so many times myself, a school that I really wanted to get into, I didn't get into. And then six weeks later, I got into another school and met the advisor and I was like, oh, well, this is why I didn't get into that school.

It's because I'm meant to work with this person. So, you know, I think it's really just trusting the process and just giving space for it to unfold as it needs to unfold. And just knowing that your student is going to end up in the program that they're supposed to end up in and in the right place.

[49:57] Charlie Murphy: I love it. And I may do some of this in the takeaway, but just to put a little bit of context in editorializing to your answer, because our parents hear so many different versions of how involved they should or shouldn't be from other parents versus, oh no, really, you have to let the kid do everything. They've heard the full spectrum. And I think it's helpful also just kind of noting in the context of an answer like that, which maybe invites a child to drive the car a little bit more also makes sense at a school that's going to be more conservatory style and that's going to ask a student to at 22 be ready to enter the industry, which is not every program we've heard. You know, you hear about some schools where you go, this might be an education of four years and then they're going to get an MFA and then the next thing.

But that in some ways, the kind of student who might be appropriate for a school like Ithaca might at least be capable of somewhat driving the car by the time they're hitting school. You know that if you hear some answers where they're like, parents do this, your kids can't possibly that like that might be more appropriate for some schools or other on the spectrum of schools as we're throwing that out there.

[50:55] Gavin Mayer: Sure.

[50:57] Gavin Mayer: Anything else that you had you wanted to say about Ithaca that you said I prepared for this today I knew I wanted to add this in. I knew I wanted to make sure that people heard this.

[51:07] Gavin Mayer: You know, I've taught at three other colleges, and I have attended three colleges and, you know, I think the thing that blows me away about Ithaca College and I talked a little bit about this when it came to the field studies but it's the level of engagement from our alumni. I have never been at a place where the alumni are so invested in giving back to the college and giving back to the department. I think, you know, we have a lot of alums who come back and work on faculty and I think that speaks volumes about their experience here. But, but just in my time in college and even my own college experience I have never been somewhere where the alums were so excited.

[52:45] Charlie Murphy: Yes, yes, yes. What a delightful conversation with a delightful man. So nice getting to know Gavin a bit here. You know, you're going to hear in a future episode with one of our alumni mom and daughter combinations, the daughter's attending Ithaca this fall, just about how wowed they were by the experience of meeting Gavin and I can see why. Okay, wow. So many takeaways here. I literally wrote down 11 options to do takeaways from, but I am also dripping with summer senioritis and I don't want to do 11 full takeaways, so I'm going to do my best and do some true quick hitters here. We'll see how we do.

[53:15] Charlie Murphy: I really love the conversation about the performer mindset and, you know, just thinking about the spectrum of acting to musical theater, not necessarily as the binary of acting or musical theater, but as sort of the specific skills within that. And then as we've talked about before, really breaking down the skills of acting, which is not one skill set as well, right? And just how that fits into the, again, what we've talked about many times in our artist episodes, how it fits into the different avenues of the business, right? That idea that there isn't one big business out there, but like a hundred different businesses. And certainly those businesses don't break down clearly on the lines of like musical theater actor and then non-musical theater actor. It's not nearly anything like that, right?

[53:45] Charlie Murphy: I know a lot of acting majors, people who studied acting, who are way more comfortable singers than a lot of musical theater majors when you talk about now in their career, right? If you think about many of the podcast guests we've had, like Bryce Pinkham or Gabe Ebert, who I just literally bought Joe's Pub concert tickets today to go see Gabe Ebert in concert, right? They spend a lot more time in the musical theater world than plenty of people who studied musical theater in their college degree. And then there are a lot of musical theater majors who are absolutely killing it in the TV world where you might never know they could sing until they like sneak it into an episode or whatever they do, right? And then everything in between, right? Those are just two examples.

[54:10] Charlie Murphy: But of course, there's all the different aspects of the business too, voiceovers and commercials and all those different things that we've talked about 25 times probably on the podcast, but just a hard underline and agree. And Ithaca really being a particular example of that kind of thing alongside schools like Carnegie Mellon, where I think we may have talked about it more explicitly, but just to say, yes, Ithaca really also speaks toward that idea of performer mindset and not really having a hard line between acting and musical theater.

[54:36] Charlie Murphy: Also just a head nod to the idea of like field studies, I think that was the word that Gavin used, the field studies they do in New York City, as we've just wrapped our showcase series last week, just another different iteration of some of the different options that we outlined in terms of what it is to get yourself out there into the industry. But I really also like, Gavin talked about the showcase itself as an educational experience. You heard Lisa Veldman-Smith talk about this with the Carnegie Mellon episode as well. And you hear me mention these two schools in the same breath because I think there's a lot of similarity and simpaticoness, simpaticicity, that can't be the right word, but just the idea of showcase itself not being just about a business opportunity, though of course it is that, but also an educational growth experience.

[55:10] Charlie Murphy: And as I said in the episode, I think I basically got my larger point out there, but just that idea of their timing for study abroad at Ithaca, I think is really smart. I always felt with Carnegie Mellon that doing it the first semester of senior year just puts a really tricky damper on the people who care a lot about showcase prep. And again, not that it's not possible. People of course did it and then had great showcases, they could have done the study abroad and come back and dove into showcase, but the timing is tricky. And again, now with my experience looking back of it, I would suggest that the showcase is not the be all and the end all, and it should not be your focus if you want to go to Russia and do an amazing study abroad.

[55:45] Charlie Murphy: But just knowing myself at 22, and even if you told me that at 22, I still wouldn't necessarily listen to you. And I didn't take the opportunity, even though I was really interested in studying abroad, I didn't take the opportunity because I didn't want to miss out on the showcase class and the showcase prep, despite, again, being very interested in the possibility, there's a lot of cool possibilities Carnegie Mellon offered in terms of different study abroad. And I do think just that like doing the junior year makes a lot of sense because earlier than junior year is tricky too, right? Those first two years in a BFA, especially a BFA conservatory style program, do tend to be so foundational. That's where the largest amount of growth happens in those two years.

[56:10] Charlie Murphy: It's just hard to picture taking out one of those whole semesters, like a quarter of that training of those two years, unless of course you could do it like as a whole class goes together in a kind of consciously authored way. But if you're not necessarily doing that with it all being about theater class, I think it could be a little tricky in those first two years to do. So again, I think that timing really makes a lot of sense and is interesting in terms of the study abroad of it all. And it also, it speaks to why study abroad can be tricky to weave into a BFA program because of sort of how consciously authored those four years can tend to be.

[56:51] Charlie Murphy: Okay, I'm going to go faster here. We're just going to head nod to the description of the dating experience. Big thumbs up that idea of genuine being yourself as a dating experience. That is probably our single most used analogy on the show. I can't help myself most times it comes up, so I'm just going to give it a thumbs up and keep it moving there. I also think I said it mostly in the episode, but I really liked Gavin's use of the word legacy. It's not a word you hear schools using as much. It may be the first time I've heard, at least the first time I've heard it that way. And it really made me perk up as I heard it, but I think it may be one of the very first times it's been used on this podcast as a word.

[57:30] Charlie Murphy: And I think it's an accurate description of this idea of like the years of successful alumni existence. It describes something different, though of course related to the idea of having a strong alumni network. I think both things can be important, but some schools could have a really strong alumni network with very active alumni offerings and very active alumni support, but only be 10 or 15 years old as a school, or as a school in the iteration that it is. To me, that doesn't really feel like a legacy when you're talking about 10 or 15 years. But when you get past a certain mark, and I'm not going to be the one to argue the semantics of where exactly that mark is, is it 25 years, is it 40 years, is it 50 years, whatever you want to say.

[58:10] Charlie Murphy: But something does start to change when you talk about over a long enough period of time, and it becomes the idea of legacy. It becomes something different than just a current alumni network. It's kind of like sports debates, which I enjoy having of, did this team achieve a dynasty or was it just a series of wins over a couple of years, right? It's not necessarily the most important semantic distinction, but I think it's something it's worth considering when you consider the idea of reputation. There is the idea of current day reputation, which is kind of like where the stock may be trading right now, but which can be maybe a bit more volatile. Maybe that depends a little bit more on a specific program head or specific choices or direction they're going.

[58:50] Charlie Murphy: But then there's also this idea of legacy, which speaks toward a broader experience and a longer breadth of time. And I think both matter. I mean, both have some importance, but I like the way that Gavin phrased it there. And then, yes, we just did this in a recent takeaway, but I'm just going to underline and highlight. I really love the idea of availability as a skill, just like having a beautiful voice, to be available as almost a technical skill. That's not a technical skill. It's a, I guess, a psychophysical skill or however you want to think of it. Just talked about that recently, so I won't do it again, but I co-sponsor it, that idea.

[59:30] Charlie Murphy: And same thing with the conversation we talked about with wild cards, that idea of seeing the human in the wild card and it being more about the human as opposed to the skillset. We just did that one in a recent podcast, so I'm not going to do it again, but yes, yes, yes to that. I also, I really love the phrasing about, you know, the idea of looking for a growth mindset, but that it's about showing and not telling, right? Is this something you can reveal in the way you approach the work and show me who you are rather than just talk about it in an essay or talk about it in an interview question? Anyone can say, I'm interested in a growth mindset, I'm going to be a sponge, right? But can you show me that, right?

[60:10] Charlie Murphy: We've been doing this leadership growth work as part of our company, which I'm just obsessed with this leadership growth work. It's like, you know, I call it business therapy, right? I cannot believe, by the way, that I've been able to restrain myself so much. I'm not consciously restraining myself, but I'm just, I know if I didn't, I would talk about it on every podcast takeaway, but for the most part, I've restrained myself talking about it on the podcast, even though we've been doing it for months. But one of my very favorite quotes from this leadership work that really stuck with me was the idea of like, how you are, or how you're being speak so loudly that I can't hear what you're saying.

[60:50] Charlie Murphy: So how you're being speak so loudly, I can't hear what you're saying. And I don't remember who that's quoting, I never care who I'm quoting when I remember a quote. And I'm sure I'm bastardizing that quote a little bit. But you get the gist of it, right? That when we're listening to someone, we're not always listening to the words they're saying. We're listening to how they're saying it and who they're being, who they are, a different version of that quote is, who you are speaking so loudly that I can't hear what you're saying, right? It's like that idea of your essence is going to speak more than the words themselves. You can tell me one thing, but if you're being a different thing, I'm always going to listen to what I'm getting from you more than from the actual words you're saying.

[61:30] Charlie Murphy: All right, that's pretty darn good. Let's wrap there. I got through like eight of the bullet points. Some of them went through really fast. I deleted three. That's pretty good for me in my summer senioritis, which allows me to say that will do it for another season of Mapping the College Edition. The one for the thumb, season five. Many thanks to all the people who worked on the podcast this season, including Kelly Prendergast, primarily Megan Courtier and Jordan Rice. Most of all, thanks to you, our dear listeners. Even those of you out there who didn't take the time to rate and review us, who just clicked download and listen, we appreciate all of you.

[62:10] Charlie Murphy: Even those who didn't click the simple button to follow us at Mapping the College Edition on Instagram. I feel like I'm Trump and I'm giving like this like passive aggressive, happy Christmas to all my haters and my fakers. It's terrible. But I want you, if you want to know, if you want to redeem yourself out there, of course, you can always head over to mtca.com for any help you may need with your individual college process. My God, we're getting loopy here in our summer break. And to my young artists out there who are mapping their journeys, please trust that you're enough for the right program exactly as you are right now. Now keep striving. We'll catch you next season.