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[0:00] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping The College Audition. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, Director of MTCA. That's Musical Theatre, College Auditions. Check us out at mtca.com. And today we've got the legendary Mary Mitchell Campbell on the show. For our newer listeners in these artist episodes, we aim to explore different paths to success that artists have forged and tease out how their education has helped them blaze that trail. We get into a really great conversation about some of those specifics with Mary Mitchell and some of the paths that she's forged for herself, and kind of a number of great holistic conversations about success in this industry in general, kind of how you mix hard work and improvement on your craft with who you are as a human being and how you want to change the world in some of the ways that Mary Mitchell has.

But before we get into that, this is the first intro that I've done since we finished our Whirlwind Unifieds tour through New York, Chicago, and LA. I know we released an episode last week, but I recorded that episode before leaving. And amazingly, there wasn't a huge MT emergency that came up in the past few weeks that I had to go and address, thank God. What I will say is that we had a real blast touring the country and hanging out with so many of our MTCA families, as we do every year. But this was a really special class of students and parents. It was really great energy in all those green rooms, the kickoff meetings throughout the weeks. And as I did, I did promise and I did do getting some footage.

I did do getting some footage. I got some good footage with some of those person on the street interviews with both students and parents and even a coach in there. I roped into an interview. We're having our producing team work on a cut of those interviews to release in the coming weeks. We will not make you wait a year this time to get to hear those. And it was really fun to do. I only interviewed people who came up and specifically asked to be interviewed, since I didn't want to interrupt anyone's flow while they're in the midst of auditioning. So if any of you didn't get that message to come up to me and ask, and you're wondering why you weren't interviewed, that's why. I promise there was nothing hand selected in this group.

It was just the MTCA-ers who were bold enough to come up and ask, hey, will you interview me on the podcast? Which I kind of told you in advance that, hey, if you want to be interviewed, come up and ask. Which really is a great lesson for Unifieds in general. The fortune favors the bold in coming up and go behind the table and ask for what you need. So those who did, congratulations. And if you're really disappointed that you didn't get to be on the podcast, I'm sorry. There's always next year. You have to go be famous and then I'll have you on the podcast after that. And speaking of this, of Unifieds, I did want to do a quick shout out to our non-MTCA listeners who came up and said hi as well.

I know that can be a bit of a daunting thing to approach a relative stranger, but I'll say it again. As I've said before, I always really appreciate hearing from people who have been in from the podcast whether or not you choose to use MTCA. Many of you joyfully came up to me and said how much you enjoyed the pod and maybe you expressed how or why you did the process on your own. But then a few came up like sheepishly, like there was something wrong with your choice not to use MTCA. And I just want to say permanently for the record, and I hope our regular listeners have gotten a sense of who we are as a team from all these conversations, but just for the record, we are not territorial or possessive or exclusionary in any way.

It's something that we really take pride ourselves in. If we're there at Unifieds, we're there to support everyone and we wish everyone, MTCA and non, the most success possible. So there's never any negative feelings on my end of like, explain yourself. Why didn't you use MTCA? It still kind of amazes me that not everyone is like this. You know, as I think you've heard in these conversations, you continue to hear in these conversations with professional actors. This is the MO of the professional world in the theater business. We are all artists supporting artists. You know, the number of stories of auditioners lending things to other auditioners to help them out in a tough moment, you know, those would blow you away.

That is the exception, not the norm, or that is the norm, not the exception that you're going to hear people helping themselves out. It is odd when you hear someone sort of tear each other down in the professional world. But I sometimes forget in the high school world that this isn't the standard, that there are people, especially in this high school world for whatever reason who are more insecure and who are more territorial and operate more from that place of lack as if somebody else's failure will be their success. And I'm just a firm believer this is not the way to go through the world and be a successful artist. And we certainly try to lead with that at MTCA and I try to lead with that personally.

So I'll just say I was happy to answer strategy questions and guide families who were non-MTCA whenever I encountered them. It happened a number of times. And I'm always a bit shocked when families will express that they feel like they're cheating on their home coaches. Or in some cases, some people told me they expressly were told by people that they had to be exclusively interacting with only them as if the answers all exist in only one place. It's just not the way the world is. And I think you'll find this becomes really clear to everyone once you get out of the toxicity of high school. So if any of you are listening out there and you're feeling some of the chains of that toxicity, you know, if you maybe have a high school director who's telling you, don't talk to anybody else.

I have all the answers and you're one of my kids. Only talk to me. I'll just say, if you ever see me or anyone from MTCA out in the world, please come up and say hi. And we are happy to help you for free even if you aren't technically one of our MTCA students. I just think there's enough difficulty in this world and in this process without adding in unnecessary stress on top of it. So I don't know, I guess I just wanted to say that out loud. If you're listening to this, you are part of the big tent of artists trying to make it in this world, even if you never happen to spend any money with MTCA. I mean, you are giving us literal pennies with your download, so we'll call it even at that point.

But you know, part of the reason for starting this podcast beyond helping our MTCA families was to try to demystify this process in general for the broader public and help out families that might not have the means to use a coaching company or aren't even sure if there's a place for themselves in this industry. So I'll just say there is, there is a place for you in this industry if you want to be here for sure. And that dovetails kind of well into our interview with Mary Mitchell, who founded Arts Ignite with a mission to empower young artists in underserved communities, not so dissimilar from what we're talking about there. But lest we get into all that ooey gooey talk without any hard sell for me, you thought you were going to get a whole intro without any sales of the forces of capitalism, I will say our Junior Intensive in person this weekend was a huge success.

Congratulations to everyone who participated in that. And it was so exciting to see so many of our current juniors there. I will talk about it a little bit more in the takeaway, so I won't spoil too much of that. I'm going to talk about one of the things that happened in this Junior Intensive. But I will say that there's exactly one spot left for the online version of that Junior Intensive. So one spot left in our online Junior Intensive, which is happening this weekend as we release this on February 22nd and 23rd. If you're hoping to jump into that, please pause this podcast, go sign up at mtca.com. And then only after purchasing, can you continue listening to this podcast, that spot may be gone before this episode is over. Okay, there, see, I did a commercial alongside all of the lovey dovey artistic goo, which I feel like is an apt combination for this interview with the great Mary Mitchell Campbell. I hope you enjoy.

[7:20] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to be joined by Mary Mitchell Campbell. Mary Mitchell is a multi multi hyphenate, a woman of like nine different careers, a conductor, music director, orchestrator, composer, arranger, as well as an activist and executive director, a one time executive director, a woman of infinite hats. She attended North Carolina School of the Arts before attending Furman University where she got a BM, her credits are going to exhaust me, so I won't do them all. But she's been a music director all over Broadway, including stuff like The Prom, Mean Girls, music supervisor currently on Death Becomes Her, recently on Once Upon a Mattress, Water for Elephants, so many things she's worked on, How to Dance in Ohio.

I mean, I can't I can't pick and choose which ones to read. There's just so many. She's previously taught on faculties at Juilliard, NYU, and Boston College. And also I mentioned World of Activism, where in 2006, she founded Arts Ignite, nay, ASTEP, which we'll talk a little bit about in the show. You know, she's also worked with great organizations like Maistra, Muse, Kristin Chenoweth's Broadway Boot Camp, the Hole in the Wall Gang. Mary Mitchell, after that bio, that's all we have time for today. Thank you for coming on. I appreciate you being here. How are you doing today? How are you feeling?

[8:30] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I'm good. That was quite a, that was quite a, you know, intro.

[8:33] Charlie Murphy: That was the shortened down version. That was me trying to cut as much as I could. There's mostly X's out here. You know, I think one of the themes I want to cover with you, and that's why I was I indulged in a longer bio than I'm letting myself do these days, is this idea of doing it all, which I think you really typify. You know, not just the many artistic hyphens, which we've talked about on the show, but then the activism as kind of a second career. But before we get in on all that, can we take you take me all the way back for our young listeners? And can you just give me a little bit of your earliest artistic journey? So how did you catch that bug for yourself?

[9:04] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Well, I grew up in eastern North Carolina, in a smallish town called Wilson pronounced Wilson with Wilson actually exist. It's Wilson. And, and I, I was enamored with high school chorus was I think, like my first sort of entree into the musical theater genre, really, because we did those how Leonard, you know, medleys of like, Phantom and Les Mis and things like that, where I was like, This is amazing. What is this? I want to learn. But I actually, you know, only knew the songs that were in the like, go research more. But I was I was a pianist by sort of, I don't know, instinct, I started playing other people's pianos. And then I started taking lessons and playing in restaurants when I was 10, which was a little bit odd. Money like this was to pay for money. Yeah, big 10 years old, and I would play by ear from the radio and, and take requests from people for unsuspecting patrons. So a prodigy, we're talking about a prodigy here is what you were.

[10:14] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Well, no, I wouldn't say that. But I would, I was doing a lot of stuff. And then I went to conservatory high school and really got serious about classical piano and really got serious about technique. I was also really into singing. So I got really into taking voice lessons and technique, technique, technique, which I do firmly believe in. And then, and then eventually ended up, you know, deciding I wanted to do musical theater.

[10:42] Charlie Murphy: Well, and I want to talk about so we're talking about all the different things that you do currently and that your kind of career ended up being. But I wonder at like 16, 17, when you were thinking about college, what kind of career were you envisioning? Did you picture yourself mostly behind the piano? Do you picture yourself singing? Like, what what were you sort of seeing as what you were going to forge for yourself?

[10:59] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I was really interested in honestly, I was interested in a lot of things. As you might imagine, when I was 16, I saw a performance of a production of the musical baby by Martin that happened at North Carolina School of the Arts. And I got very excited about telling stories through music. And I just thought, Oh, I think I want to be a storyteller. I want to be, I think instead of being in a practice room by myself, I want to do team sport. And I want to do storytelling through through music. So that was sort of my aha moment, I think was seeing that musical and being like, wait, I think that's what I want to pursue. That said, I also want to keep my options open. So because I had done a conservatory high school, which meant that my academics were really over on sideline, because I took college level music classes with the actual college students.

Yeah. I, in graduating from that program, they actually encouraged me to stay and it's a great, great program there. And they were like, they made me a very attractive offer, which was I could have graduated from college in two years, by applying all of my credits. Yeah. However, I felt like I had really lost a lot of the academic rigor in my junior and senior year of high school. And so I kind of flipped the script a little bit and decided to go to a liberal arts school. Yeah. Where I felt like I was going to get a little bit more of an overall education about other things, which proved to end up really changing my life in a good way. Yeah. But, you know, at the time, I was trying to keep as many options open as I could while still really focused on getting as many skills and education opportunities as I could.

[12:54] Charlie Murphy: Did you what did storyteller mean to you at 17? So like, did that think you think that meant composer? Did you think that meant like, did you have an idea of like music director might be a specific career? Like, I kind of wonder myself 16, 17. I would have loved the idea of theater maker storyteller, but I wouldn't have really known what that meant other than perform her director, maybe.

[13:11] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Yeah, I think to me that meant potential composer. I think it meant performer as far as like playing piano for those that kind of world. I didn't really fully grasp the whole music director role until I was in college. And I remember going to the library back when people actually had to go to a library and sit down and research instead of having the wonders of the internet. And I looked up like jobs in theater and found the page that described musical director and I was like, I think that's what I'm gonna do.

[14:40] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Talk to me a little bit about how you became one of the in-demand Broadway music directors. What were your first steps in getting your foot in the door?

[15:03] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I made the decision to move to New York after college, which was not viewed very positively by anyone—my family, my school, pretty much no one thought it was a great idea. One of my favorite professors at college sat me down and expressed concern, saying he was worried about this choice for me. He mentioned that I had other opportunities, but they weren't in musical theater, and he felt like I was throwing all my eggs in one basket. I heard everything he said, but I still wanted to go, even if I thought I might fail. I didn't want to live my life wondering what would have happened if I tried. That was non-negotiable for me; I was willing to fail, and that willingness has proven to be helpful in everything I've done.

[17:02] Mary Mitchell Campbell: We often think we have to know the path from 22 to 25, but there are many times to remake the plan and re-engage. You can fail and come up with something else, and I think that's more available to young people now than it was when I was coming through. You can reinvent yourself every couple of years, and people are supportive of that.

[17:40] Mary Mitchell Campbell: When I first got to New York City, I realized that people didn't want those hyphens; they wanted you to fit into a specific box. I initially told people I was a music director and wanted them to put me in that box, but later I realized I could do multiple things well.

[18:26] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I think building trust is important. If you prove you can deliver on one thing, people will give you a chance to do something else.

[19:04] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I pinpoint three things that helped me succeed. First, I evaluated the skill sets important for a great music director and had honest self-evaluation moments to identify what I needed to work on.

[20:24] Mary Mitchell Campbell: For example, I knew I needed to be a good sight reader to be a competitive audition pianist, so I practiced sight reading every day.

[21:17] Mary Mitchell Campbell: The second point was finding mentors. I sought out people I thought were amazing at their jobs and tried to get into their orbit for mentorship.

[22:14] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I often volunteered to play for things for free to be in the room and learn. Shadowing is invaluable because there’s so much you can’t learn from any school program or textbook.

[22:36] Mary Mitchell Campbell: The third point was being someone people wanted to be in a room with. I recognized that people do their best work when they feel safe, so I focused on helping others feel secure.

[23:04] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I even took an auditioning class as a performer to understand the anxiety and nerves actors face, which helped me be more empathetic on the other side of the table.

[24:00] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I started out playing a lot of auditions, which was just a gig where I got paid by the hour. It was helpful to understand how creative teams functioned and how actors presented themselves.

[25:16] Mary Mitchell Campbell: One of my early moments was being the audition accompanist for Goodspeed, where I became friends with Gavin Creel while waiting outside the room during auditions.

[25:50] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I often tell young students to look for mentee-mentor relationships but also to look sideways at their peers, as those relationships can be huge in their careers.

[26:02] Mary Mitchell Campbell: A typical music director job means being involved with the creative team from the very beginning, especially for new shows. You go through a developmental process that includes table reads and workshops.

[27:09] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Your job is to be in charge of all things music, interfacing with the creative team and helping them understand how music functions, especially during previews for a Broadway show.

[27:29] Mary Mitchell Campbell: So that's a separate component as well. That I take quite seriously. So it's a very interesting job because there's so many areas that you're kind of watching and covering and trying to triage.

[28:30] Yeah.

[28:33] Mary Mitchell Campbell: In many cases, as you get better at it, I sort of now have the ability to more like jump ahead and get the stuff out of the road before we hit the roadblock, you know, because you can see it coming. But that's only from learning through experiences.

[28:44] Yeah.

[28:45] Mary Mitchell Campbell: After your 12 shows. Oh, I don't want to repeat that experience. So next time I'm going to do this, you know, which is constant postmortems on every project.

[29:01] Charlie Murphy: It totally makes sense.

[29:02] Mary Mitchell Campbell: And, you know, something that I don't think I realized until getting to New York. I know I didn't. Just how different the band can be from night to night when you're talking about depending on the show that, you know, actors see actors going in and out and swings and that kind of thing. But the level of which seems like the band's like every other show.

[29:20] Yeah.

[29:23] Mary Mitchell Campbell: They're underground. Yeah. Under the surface of the water, if you will. And so.

[29:30] Yeah.

[29:32] Mary Mitchell Campbell: And that can be a whole separate. Yeah. I mean, that's a whole other thing is just the mechanisms of running the orchestra, dealing with the union, staying compliant, prepping subs, firing subs.

[29:42] Yeah.

[29:43] Mary Mitchell Campbell: It seems like they have a stronger union than we do, too. It seems like whatever they're getting, they get more out.

[29:46] Charlie Murphy: They have a very strong union.

[29:47] Mary Mitchell Campbell: They have a very strong union. Yeah. Only actors sadly have our weak union. But talking from the actor's perspective, you mentioned the integral and casting. You know, I both want to hear it from a casting perspective and also just, you know, with working with so many amazing singers, which I think has been a real specialty for you. You mentioned Gavin and Kristen, some of these people. I'm interested that some of these people you've had these really relationships with where you will have a collaborative relationship. You know, as we record this, our singers are just finishing up their big college auditions. And, you know, we often talk about this time of year of what it is in an audition to, like, quickly make that bond and quickly be like, hey, you're my partner here, accompanist. We're about to do this thing for my audition, but you're going to be my helper.

[30:24] Right.

[30:25] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I'd love to hear both of those auditions and then with those longer term relationships. You know, what do you look for from that piano side in a singer? What do you love when you see in a singer? And then maybe we'll talk about pitfalls, too. But maybe you take either direction there with auditions or sort of in general.

[30:40] Mary Mitchell Campbell: From an auditioning perspective, like if I'm playing for someone, I love people who make choices that are clear enough for me to know what they're doing and are not looking to me to like guide them through, but are really doing that collaborative dance.

[30:56] Right. Well, who have an idea of it's that thing of like knowing what you want to do, but also responding to what I'm doing. Not just it's not just I've preplanned my audition and now I'm just going to do this thing and I hope you're with me. It's like I've preplanned my audition and now I'm going to do this thing and react to what you're giving me so that we can create something specific to this moment.

[31:20] Yeah. And I think that is the thing that I most respond to.

[31:24] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Yeah. Who have that ability? They feel like you're really dancing together. I mean, they're queuing. This is what I want this dance to be, but that you're really dancing together and it's not just like they're dancing and you're trying to follow along.

[31:35] That's right. Yeah, that's right.

[31:37] Mary Mitchell Campbell: So that's my biggest, I think, thing that I respond to.

[31:40] Charlie Murphy: And are there pitfalls that you've seen, you know, young performers step into in an audition, maybe in the way they talk to you, but or just in the way they relate to the piano where you would go. Oh, if you could find a little bit more of this, like are the things that you that you're noticing that young people often walk in not succeeding at that with.

[31:55] Sure. I mean, you know, it's a hard, hard situation to be in. It's it's a very artificial situation. And we're all trying to be our best selves.

[32:05] Yeah. And what is a very difficult situation?

[32:08] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Yeah. So, yeah, I think people constantly struggle with being their best self in that moment, especially when you're nervous. You know, I would say nerves are a challenge that some people really have to figure out how to navigate. And some people have more trouble with that than others. The way you speak to your pianist, to me, you know, your best bet is to look at them as your collaborator and your friend and come at it from a place of like, we are building this together and I'm going to trust you.

[32:37] Yeah. But I understand that, like having bad experiences sometimes leads people in from a defensive standpoint. And that often reads in a room, I would say adversarial, like, like, don't mess this up.

[32:49] Do exactly. Yeah, there's a there's an edge to it that doesn't necessarily serve them as well as they would like it to.

[32:56] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I would say I would say the biggest thing that I see in auditions is having a preconceived idea of who we want you to be. And I think that is the challenge. Right. Because everyone has been trained and you're like, this is what they want. This is what they want, as opposed to like trusting that training and being yourself and going, I'm going to be me and we'll see how that goes. But if if I can come in and be authentically me, then I have succeeded at this audition.

[33:25] Charlie Murphy: And is that especially on your end? Is that especially vocally like, hey, they're looking for this kind of sound that you'll see people sort of manufacturing something or is it just in the personality? Where are you seeing that where you go? It seems like you're trying to be what you think they're looking for and not.

[33:36] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I would say that it's in the choices of oftentimes it's in the choices of the material and in how they present the material if they. Yeah, because there are times, you know, Kristen Chenoweth tells a great story about auditioning for Steel Pier and how the audition notice called for a leggy, tall chorus girl with a high and tall. But she's definitely not like the end of neither. Yeah, really. She's a you know, and she was like, I'm going to go anyway.

[34:09] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[34:13] Mary Mitchell Campbell: She got a high C probably. She was like, I had a high E flat. And so she said, you know, I'm going to go. And they ended up rethinking the role.

[34:17] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[34:21] Mary Mitchell Campbell: For her, because she was herself. She was unapologetically herself. I've seen that happen. It happened in some like it hot. Actually, one of our leading roles, we ended up changing how we viewed it based on an audition process. And, you know, people coming in and being themselves and us being like, oh, maybe we want to go that direction.

[34:37] Charlie Murphy: It's I love that conversation and think so helpful for them to hear someone like you who's as accomplished as you are say that. And I'll also just say in the same way that, you know, often the schools when you're talking about the school auditions, all the schools will say that be yourself. But then students will sort of whether it's that they don't believe it or it's their own nerves will sort of make them go. I think this is what a pace looks for. I think this is what Michigan looks for, et cetera.

[35:00] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I do think in the business that is particularly hard in conversations with your representatives, because I do think that is that is language. That's the place where I think it comes from for professional actors who maybe know, hey, I should go in there and show my authentic artistry. And that's what they're looking for behind the table. It's hard, you know, when you read those breakdowns and you see leggy blonde or whatever the thing is that you're going to read. And I will say I do think agency managers tend to talk in that way.

[35:27] They do tend to say like, you know, it's not that they would say, you know, go be something artificial. But I do think the way that they're they're going to communicate both in terms of why you got something, why you didn't get something. It tends to be in that more transactional, for sure.

[35:41] Charlie Murphy: It makes it hard. It's hard as an actor to go, OK, but I'm going to lead with me anyway. Maybe they want this guy instead of what they've described or whatever.

[35:48] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Yeah, it's incredibly hard. I mean, I think, you know, I'm a big fan of everybody having like a back pocket audition song that they feel that they really just exemplifies who they are at their core so that they can use it as a second song if they get the opportunity to do it. Or, you know, because if you come in with trying to hit the sort of basic requirements of what they're casting for, it's just good to have something that shows us who you are.

[36:12] Right. But so often when you're when you're not the one auditioning, it's easy to be like, yeah, but why would they cast you like you want to show like this is the version of you? Like if you show them only what you're what you think they're looking for and give them like half of that and then go. But what if they do make that turn and they never got to see this is the special part of your voice, the special part of your comedy, special whatever the thing that you would do that would bring something that could allow them to reimagine?

[36:35] Yeah. Let's talk about also just musicianship in general, you know, especially for people who come from it more from the acting perspective, maybe more from the dance perspective to just as a singer, you know, what does it mean? And that can be many different things. But what does it mean to sort of be a Broadway level musician in terms of like how that ability manifests as a singer for those who didn't get a BM or didn't even get a BFA and MT and really study music theater? You know, we've had a lot of like actors, Juilliard actors who then have gone on to do musicals and go, Oh, I got a lot to learn. What does that mean in terms of what would be a baseline of what you'd be looking for as a singer?

[37:09] Mary Mitchell Campbell: And I will say the good news is, if you're right, if, if, you know, on some level, if the part is meant to be yours, there's nothing that will stop you from that. And that, and on some level, that means like whatever your musical skill set is, it will get worked with by the team. And that's the great news. I've worked with performers who, you know, can't read music at all and have really hard time, you know, with any kind of musical language, but same, you know, or need or have been given the confidence to figure out how to sing.

[37:42] But I will at varying levels of success, really, but like sometimes the acting, you know, we go to see things because we want to have an experience. And so while technique is paramount, it's not the only thing you can be relying on. So, you know, a lot of times the less trained people can really put something across in an acting component that like is really moving. I will say I, I'm a firm believer in having some sort of foundational music skills. Like I think, I think if you can learn to read music, if you don't already, that is a really good investment of time. I think being able to say what your range is up when being asked, be amazed when people have no idea how to answer that question.

Being able to say where you're comfortable singing part wise, even if it's like, I usually sing alto, but I'm very comfortable singing soprano. Like, even if it's like, I don't want to pigeonhole myself, but I'm going to, but I still have a clear opinion about what I normally do is really helpful.

[38:43] Mary Mitchell Campbell: And I think knowing the best way you learn is really helpful. I often send out a questionnaire to cast before I start a process to say, what's the best way for you to learn music? Like, are you, are you a visual learner? Are you an oral learner? Do you want plunks in advance? You like, what's the best way for me to support your process?

[39:05] Charlie Murphy: And for you, does that often involve saying, like, would you help with literal vocal technique, whether that's recommending, hey, you could take a couple lessons or would you actually help with that vocal technique with people?

[39:15] Mary Mitchell Campbell: If people flag it to me, I do. And sometimes I flag it to them. Right. I'll say, hey, I think you would benefit from working with somebody that specializes in this. Maybe it's a new style. Maybe here's some names or I'll say, you know, hey, do you want to come in and meet earlier? Stay on the lunch break and we can look at this moment that I feel like, you know, and I'll jump in in a voice teacher kind of way. It just depends on the person and, and having a sense of like what they know of their own skill set. Do they even have a voice teacher in their, in their team that they might not see regularly, but they might be able to go to if they're hitting a roadblock. Those kinds of things are important.

[39:53] Mary Mitchell Campbell: It's interesting, a theme of sort of self-awareness that I'm hearing already, both in terms of what you, you have your own self-awareness of the skills, so soft and hard that you're working on. And then also what you're asking of actors to have, have that self-awareness of where you are in the process to be able to fit different shows.

[40:08] Charlie Murphy: Okay, well, let's take a quick break. And on the back end, I want to talk about these other careers. We've only been talking artistically, but we got activists and administrator and all these exciting other careers to get to. So we're back in a flash with Mary Mitchell Campbell.

[40:20] Charlie Murphy: Okay, we are back with the singular Mary Mitchell Campbell.

[40:24] Charlie Murphy: So, okay, we're going to talk about the founding of ASTEP, now Arts Ignite. Will you tell us a little bit about that origin story and sort of what drew you into that kind of work?

[40:33] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Sure. I, I guess it started because I was, I was in New York City. I was doing, you know, a lot of work in the musical theater world. And I hit this place where I felt like there had to be, well, first of all, I will say that the nature of the business is very self-absorbed by, you know, by its own definition. You have to be self-absorbed.

[40:56] Charlie Murphy: We're talking about self-awareness.

[40:57] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Yeah, but that is self-absorption. You are a product that you were trying to sell in an industry. And that involves an enormous amount of self-absorption, which I didn't love about myself. My college.

[41:14] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Studies that I ended up doing I did a lot of work in the sort of sociology space and in the like around income inequality and around sort of people experiencing, you know, homelessness and a lot of like poverty studies. And so I was deeply interested in that. And I kind of hit a place where I was like, I need some kind of massive change. So I ended up going to India, and spending four months working in orphanages, doing teaching music and English.

[41:48] Charlie Murphy: And this is when in your career, this is you've already been a Broadway?

[41:52] Mary Mitchell Campbell: No, I had not. In fact, ironically, I had, I got a call from a very important producer saying, Hey, we would love to have you come in and meet with us about taking on this big, shiny Broadway show as a music director. And I was like, Wow, this is amazing. Like, they just called me and asked, you know, because you don't, it's a very odd industry. So yeah, well, you don't like, you know, anyway, they called and I said, Great. And then I realized, wait, I'm getting ready to go out of the country. So I called back and I said, Hey, I would love to come to this meeting. But I also feel like I need to tell you that I'm about to leave the country for four months. So I don't know when your project is, but I don't want to waste your time.

And so and big fancy producer called and said, Hey, let me explain what this is sort of in the like, when I explain this, you're going to understand why you have to come to this meeting and be available and potentially not leave and potentially not leave the country. And so and we had a very funny conversation where I said, Yeah, no, that's amazing. When is this all happening? Because I leave, you know, within a week and I'm going to be gone. And they were like, Where are you going? And I said, I'm going to India, long pause. And they were like, for a show. And I said, No, not for show. I'm going to go do humanitarian work. Yes, long pause. This is not normal conversation. Yeah, producer. Anyway, he, we ended up agreeing that I wasn't going to come in.

And I, and I hung up the phone and I and I sort of did like a check in with myself and was like, Wow, that is really not what I was expecting. I would choose in this moment having like spent a lot of years building up for what I thought was what I wanted to do. And I'm now at this moment. And this moment doesn't feel right. And so I'm going to go to India. So that was odd. Now what I find fascinating about that is I went off to India, I had this amazing experience, I left with sort of two truths for me. One was that I was that it was not about feeling guilty for how much I had, but it was about being conscious of how much I waste. The second one was that I did didn't have the ability to un-know what I then knew about areas of the world and that my life was not meant to be the same and that I needed to figure out what that looked like.

And that resulted in me starting this nonprofit. And then I came back and I ended up getting a meeting with another director who called and said, I'd like to meet with you. And said, you know, I'm interested in talking to you about this project. And I went through the interview process. Pretty sure that I wasn't even really in consideration. So I was answering my questions very honestly. And then ultimately got a job offer. And that was with John Doyle on the musical Company. Yep. Starring Elizabeth Stanley and was co-starring Raul Esparza.

[44:53] Mary Mitchell Campbell: And so I ended up having these meetings with John Doyle, where he offered me the job and I did not say yes right away. Because I had like, come back and started this nonprofit. And I felt like, oh, no, I've now committed to this thing. And this is a big job. I don't know if this is the right choice. And I had this great conversation with him where I explained all of this. And he actually just sat and listened to me. Yeah. And at the end of it, he said, Well, I think that's all great. I don't really understand why that prevents you from doing the show. Yeah. And I said, what do you mean? He said, Well, I would support you doing both. I don't, I just don't understand why. Yeah, you can't have the nonprofit and do this project.

And it blew my mind. Yeah, it really blew my mind. I was like, Oh, I don't have to choose. You're saying I don't have to choose. And that was kind of the beginning of me understanding like, oh, okay. I could be the hyphenate. Yeah, situation. I could I could make this work. I just have to, you know, figure out how to make it happen. But it was that I look back on that conversation and how pivotal it was often. And the thing that I think about so much is, is that it took someone else giving me permission. Yes. To do this thing that was always in my grasp, right? I just didn't know how to give myself permission.

[46:18] Charlie Murphy: It's so interesting. And it's so interesting that well, I mean, I this is new information to me in the timing of it. I think I'd assumed already that you, you know, had had some big breaks at the time that arts are ignited and was founded or a step was found at the time. It's amazing to me that you were able to find that balance. And that that those life choices that already you had the strength and the confidence to say no to that first producer. I think something people do often find for themselves, especially actors will find that for themselves after they've achieved a certain level of success. Then they'll start saying, no, I got to go to this family wedding. No, I've got to prioritize my own life and whatever the thing is over my career. But I think it's most young performers do come from a more of a scarcity mindset of, you know, when the person says, here's why, you know, you'll have to.

[46:57] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Yeah, of course, it's definitely scarcity mindset. And it wasn't like I wasn't willing to work really hard and pay my dues. It's just that when those moments hit, and I checked in with myself, I was like, oh, I value this over this in this moment. And I have to trust that. Yes. But I will also say the irony is Company was like a hugely transformative job for me. Yeah. It introduced me to Sondheim, who became one of my mentors and introduced me to an enormous, you know, new group of people that became my club, my longtime collaborators. And it was in the same season as the first Broadway show. So yeah, and I and that first one was not really as right for me as right. You saw the person who was willing to have in hindsight, I'm like, oh, if I had taken that job, I would not have gotten this experience. Yeah. So sometimes I feel like you have to just recognize that you're not going to necessarily see why things happen until later. But you have to have like some sort of trust.

[48:00] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, it's so well said that, yeah, you, you found the person who not just gave you permission to do both, but was willing to have you be a Broadway music director while you're doing both, which clear that first producer was not interested in that kind of relationship of sharing. I mean, it's reasonable that they're like, you can't do this from India, whatever. That's not nothing wrong with that. But then them thinking, well, I don't know how to work with somebody who's that kind of multi-hyphenate. And maybe that with John Doyle, you found someone who would and that and it allowed you to be the person that you were. I want to ask that question, like as logistically possible, and it's probably a thousand different ways of I still don't understand it.

Maybe John did with the vision at the time, how you possibly made all this work. So what does that literally mean as you are founding? And, you know, the when you're the executive director of a step and now Arctic Night, that was like clearly a full-time job. And your empty career was more than a full-time job before we get into the intricacies of all the other different hyphens you're doing. So what did those days look like? How did you balance it all? How did you do it all?

[48:59] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I mean, I look back on it. It's very funny to think about, but I, I will say I am blessed with the ability to survive on very little sleep. And, and I don't think that that is true for all people, obviously. But I was someone who was like, okay, I can do four hours a night and be fine. And that's basically what I did for about a year. You know, really significantly. And, and that so there was very little sleep happening and an incredible amount of like, focused work I was I would compartmentalize I was always kind of like on every 10 minute break, I would be working on the nonprofit on the you know what I mean? It's not like daytimes and nighttimes. It's like both happening at both at the same time, for sure.

So it was a you know, it was a really all encompassing. And I had no life. There was a lot of sacrifice involved, I would say. And it's like personal life. He had there wasn't. I don't know that I would recommend it for those people, right? Like you have to be pretty passionate about it. But I will say, I was really passionate. And so it fueled me I think when you're really passionate about something, and you love what you're doing, the work part of it doesn't feel as laborsome as it does for like other jobs, right? So like, in that regard, I was kind of flying high on the creativity of it all. And on the sort of feeling like what I was doing was not mattering. I also found for myself, I would say kind of two big things with that balancing one was, you can have all the technique in the world.

And if you don't have something to say, it doesn't really matter. And so what I found was like, through my nonprofit work, I really felt like I had so much more to say, which really played into the technique. And then the second thing was, you know, working on humanitarian work is so kind of life and death and dire and intense and can be really overwhelming in a in a in its profundity. And, and so it was great to go play make believe, you know, as a contrast. And similarly, people in the theater would sometimes like to elevate, you know, not not for nothing. We're dramatic people. And so like, we would like to out they would like to elevate things to feel like life and death. And I would be like, y'all, this is not life.

That's right. We're making some people. It's really great, but no one's gonna die. Yeah, like, everybody calm down. Yeah, like, it's gonna be okay. And that ended up being really helpful to me in my career, as far as like, just being able to really appreciate both sides of that coin.

[52:02] Charlie Murphy: Yep. That's well said. Well, and now as you I know, you've shifted out of the role of executive director for Arctic Night. Have you found a little more balance and a little bit more ease than you were then in those earlier days in terms of the balance of the ball? Or is it still truly a grind and a juggle? I mean, I know you also I'm mentioning these two careers, but also you're all the time going off and doing concerts people and you're doing and I mentioned six other organizations that you do stuff with. I mean, I just feel like you are calendar is never I mean, I will say it depends on the time, right? Like 2024 was a particularly challenging year for me. Because, you know, when you get involved in a show, you get involved in the show.

And and you're if you're lucky, the show continues to develop, right, which doesn't always happen. A lot of times you get involved in the shows, and they don't really go very far. But if you're lucky, and they actually develop into things. And as my career has gone on, I've been more and more in the groups of people who make things happen, right? So, but you don't have control over when they happen to really at the mercy of a lot of factors, right? You're planting a seed, but you don't know when it's going to sprout out. Even the most powerful people on the team don't really have that luxury of choosing when things are going to happen. It's not. It's a that's, that's something that you know, when you peek behind the curtain, you're like, Oh, everyone's just sort of like, having to respond to all of these factors of business components.

But so for me, last year was really hard, because several things came into fruition at the same time. Yeah. And so I felt like I was doing so many full-time jobs that it was really, really rough. Because I wanted to give them all 1000%. And that's the other thing is like, you have your own personal integrity of like, what does it mean? If you say you're going to be there, you say, yes, follow through, you're going to do the things? Yeah, you know, and at what cost are you willing to? So these are the hard questions, right? I was just talking with Elizabeth about that last night. I was like, you know, they could get your 80%. It's like, I was like this, this project of the six projects you're looking at right now.

I'm like, it wouldn't be and she's like, I can't. For myself, I can't give 80%. We're not built that way. Yeah. And I think that that is the personal integrity factor that comes into play, and can be really challenging to work around. But yeah, so I think, you know, over the years, I've gotten pretty good about trying to like, figure out, okay, what is what is the fire of this moment? Yeah. And that changes hour to hour, you know what I mean? Like, and your day can be really, you know, bizarre, and it's like sort of ping ponging between different things. But as long as you keep a cool head, and stay focused, and I do a lot of like breaking things that when I get overwhelmed, I do a lot of like, break it down into a smaller increment.

So if I'm starting to feel overwhelmed, I'm like, okay, what can I just get accomplished in this 10 minutes? Yeah. And, you know, like, and if I have to break it down to five minutes, then I'll break it down. Yep. Just keep doing things, instead of getting paralyzed.

[54:31] Charlie Murphy: Yep. That's great advice. I mean, it was certainly something we talked about in the college process a lot, too, that finding those chunks. But you know, if you were to give advice, not, of course, not every student can do four hours of sleep at night. So you have to kind of know your own personal limits. But if you're giving advice to a young person, you know, it's a place I really struggle in the same way that we talked about, do you zero in on one of those hyphens and be really excellent, and then show off all the many different hyphens and things you do, you know, just from a perspective of like, how hard to work, you know, how much artistic life versus personal.

[54:59] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I think it's something that my generation, we were not really curious about. I think we just were just aware that like, you know, but like the first producer said, it was like we were gonna have a lot of sacrifices. It was just like my whole family knew. Vacations, it could happen maybe, but I'm never gonna plan a vacation with you because if I get this regional theatre gig, even this Podunk, can you believe I'm doing this? I'm like, yes, it's my career. I'm gonna do it. Like that's it was just an expectation. Right, consider me penciled in until I tell you otherwise.

[55:26] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Always penciled. But I do think, you know, and I think the younger generation is coming up with a better sense of their own mental health, their own physical health, their own, you know, sort of wellness as a concept or last couple episodes, we kind of focus on wellness specifically for the auditioning actor. But I kind of wonder, like, like, if you're if you were advising a young person, someone said, okay, Mary Mitchell, like, how should I structure my life? Should I be giving 10 years of sacrifice? Should I be like, how do you talk to young people going? What does that mean in terms of how hard I'm going to be working and sleeping four hours in the night? And, you know, those kind of things?

[55:27] Charlie Murphy: Penciled, always penciled.

[56:00] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Right. Great question. I mean, I can't say that I would advocate for anyone to do the sort of insane four hour a night thing that I was doing. I think that's a really poor choice, really. In a lot of ways. I mean, it was also helped. You know, I know.

[56:14] Charlie Murphy: Exactly. That's what's hard about him. Like, it's so hard. But also, I'm like, if you don't do it, well, 10 other people do it like that. There is still a competitive industry, you know.

[56:21] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Right. But I can't in all good faith say that's a great idea. Right. I mean, I think you are an extreme version of it.

[56:27] Charlie Murphy: I mean, yeah, I'm definitely an extreme version. You know, I think you make a great point. And as like an older person in the industry now, I would say, you know, I feel like I'm learning from the younger generation a lot about boundaries and wellness and priorities. And I, you know, there are times that I'll be honest, there are times when I'm like, I'm not sure if I agree with that choice, but I acknowledge and appreciate and respect you making it. And I think I'm learning a lot about it myself, for myself. I would say the thing that I think never changes is that when, you know, however you define what you're willing to a lot in time and energy wise, to pursuing your craft versus your personal life or personal well-being, which I do think is a really valuable conversation, but like whatever those ratios end up being, I would only say that you have to make sure that when you are devoting your time and energy towards the craft, that it's really focused and that it is a lot of work and that there's always things to be improving on.

No one has everything figured out and no one has all of the skills that they would like to have. And everyone, you know, I just, I literally just reached out to somebody this week and said, Hey, I would like to take some conducting lessons on this score coming up that gives me a little bit of Ajita. And I want to like, make sure that I'm working with somebody that I really trust to just give me some pointers because I'm constantly going to be learning.

[58:05] Charlie Murphy: And you're doing that despite having already been a Broadway level conductor. This is not like a new, you know, yeah, I've conducted all over the world at this point, but, but it's, that's not the point. The point is that I need to stay curious. I need to stay ever improving my, my craft. And, and there's like a certain amount of, I think, discipline and focus that is required to, to want to be at the levels that, that I want to be at. I just think that's a reality.

[58:33] Mary Mitchell Campbell: It's so, it's so well said, you know, you gotta be in the gym regardless. It doesn't mean you have to be in the gym 24 seven and you have to rest and take care of yourself, but, but that, but you're going to be there. Yeah. You know what I mean? And figure out how to practice because I think that is the biggest problem is that people are like, well, I get, I put in hours and it's like, well, it doesn't matter if you put in hours, if you didn't actually have focused time on those hours. So, you know, putting in time can be just putting in time.

[59:01] Charlie Murphy: Right. That's the, it's not, not about practice makes perfect. It's productive practice makes perfect or whatever.

[59:04] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Yeah. I think that's true. Um, I love that. I think it's such a good advice. And I think obviously there's no singular answer of like, this is the perfect balance for all people. But I do think it's just worth saying, because I think, I think the new generation has is teaching us stuff about wellness. And I think there are ways in which, uh, are the older generation can learn to take care of themselves and have more sustainability. And, you know, you gave an example of your self-care choice led to the best moment of your career. In some ways, your choice to go, I am going to go do this thing for my soul led to this great, wonderful career thing. So that was an example of balance, but also you are someone who on the side of the scale is doing way more hard work than, oh, I'm a completely self-proclaimed workaholic, which I am constantly battling, you know?

[59:44] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. So I just want to be kind of honest about that in terms of, in terms of like, it's not like, you know, that you, you can have it all, but you're going to give something up. It's like, you can have it all, but it's not like there's not, and I think one of the biggest things that people are surprised on who shadow me is how hard I work now. I think there's a misperception that at a certain point you don't have to work so hard. And I don't think that that exists in this industry. We just saw it. I'm a big NBA fan. And so we are making sports analogies. We just see it with, you know, LeBron James is 40 years old. Every person who joins his team goes, I cannot believe how hard he works now up at 5 AM still in the gym already having been the all-time leading scorer, having already done all the things he could coast into retirement. And no, he's still working his butt off.

[1:00:25] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Um, I'd love to talk a little bit, you know, one of the other reasons, the big reason I don't have you on was talking about this, this balance and what you, you do with so many different careers. And we've only gotten into kind of a couple of them already, but I'd love to just kind of talk in the arts admin world in general, you know, that is a whole subset of our students who will, you know, just realistically over the 15 years, many will get BFAs in performing or get a BA or whatever they get, end up in the theater world, not necessarily as a performer. You know, I would love to talk in your work when you've worked with artists who are holding down administrative and kind of leadership positions, maybe specifically at Arts Ignite, but it could be just across the board.

You know, we talk about the transferable skills of a BFA, you know, how did you find hiring or working with people, you know, that you're evaluating the skillset of an artist when you're seeing them in a different kind of role in an administrative role in some way?

[1:01:12] Mary Mitchell Campbell: What a great question. I, um, I'm a big believer in how much the arts have the ability to transform us as individuals and us as communities, and quite frankly, heal the world. I really do believe that's the mission statement of Arts Ignite, basically, right? You know, we, we bring arts to communities that don't have access to them, and we use those are the arts training to help teach health education and life skills, get kids excited about going to college, you know, really ignite a curiosity and a belief in imagining a better world for themselves and their family. But I would say, you know, my favorite people to hire in those admin roles are artists. Yeah. Because, um, I feel like artists have some real ability to multitask because we have to, because of how we are, our training works.

I also just really believe in creating space for artists to be able to have like survival-y jobs, jobs that are, you know, like the arts administrative jobs that we offer, but also have the flexibility to keep pursuing their passion, right? And that's, to me, that's been a goal has been always to, um, almost to a fault, like to create, uh, working situations for that are specific to the people, right? Like I like to create bespoke situations. It's like, I want to hire this person. This is what they are trying to pursue in their real life, bigger picture life. And I want to support that and also give them this outlet that pays them a salary, but also makes them feel like they're making the world better, you know, and doing it through things that they, through a language that they understand and can also speak fluently. So all of those things, but I would say, um, you know, never sell yourself short in what your arts training has, has prepared you to do.

[1:03:05] Charlie Murphy: Is there something that you look for, you know, maybe specifically in the hiring process, you know, basically for our students who think like, Hey, I might see myself eventually running something like an artistic night, or maybe just working for an organization in some kind of administrative capacity out of school, you know, it's like, what should they be cultivating on their resume or on their skillset that they would bring into an interview that would make Mary Mitchell say, I want to hire you. I mean, do you care about them having an arts admin minor, which some of them will get literally, you know, do you look for degrees that are in that? It's not a bad idea for sure. I don't, I don't think it is a requirement in my mind, but I think it's, it's, it makes you attractive in that, in that, uh, world for sure. For me, the two things would be passion and initiative, which I think if you're trying to make your career as an artist, you need those things anyway.

[1:03:52] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Yep. You have to have those things. So hard to boil down on a resume, passion and initiative. It's hard to put that. It's hard to put that into. Yeah. Monetized terms. It's like a pink resume or something. If you show kind of color or whatever, but I think what you bring in the interview process, you have to get to the interview process, but what you can bring in the interview process and you can give examples of, of initiative.

[1:04:15] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Um, passion is something that I think you just bring in with your energy.

[1:04:20] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Yeah. And, and I think it's a great answer. And it's, it's, I guess in some ways I, what I would have anticipated the answer being noting that like, uh, Alejandro Rodriguez, who brought us together initially before Elizabeth then brought us together again, uh, separate threads, but, uh, you know, has seeing his career with, I believe only a certificate. I don't think there are any minors or anything else that you would put on the resume that shows a leadership ability, but seeing him run nonprofits and write shows and act in things and run theaters and, you know, now owning his own for-profit company, the, all this ability to, to do all of that leadership with just a BFA certificate, you know, without any sort of, um, anything beyond that, not to say that those are negative things, but to say clearly it is possible to do those things as you do yourself.

[1:05:02] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Right. That's not, and I would actually point out, like when I started the nonprofit, I had a bachelor's in piano performance, you know, and there was, there was a moment that I, one of the mentors that I had met, uh, connected me with a group of, um, sort of humanitarian sector people down in DC. And I, I took the train down and I, I went through a little bit of a like audit with them where they, where they spent their lunch hour. I paid for them to have lunch. They all came into a boardroom and they spent the hour looking at what I had created as far as like all of my documents, mission statements, vision statements, my website, et cetera. And they picked it apart and they told me all the things that worked about it and mostly what didn't. I mean, it was, it was quite brutal, but it was so helpful.

And I wrote down everything they said. And there was a moment that I felt like the slightest bit of defensiveness where I was like, I'm a piano performance major. Y'all like, I don't know what I'm doing, but that's, and that's okay. But there was a willingness for me to hear it. You know what I mean? And I do think that being able to say, you know what, I'm inviting you to be really honest with me and I want to hear it even though it's going to suck. I want you to tell me what I'm, because then I know what to go away and work on. And they, they did that for me and it was a life changing meeting. And I went away and I ended up doing basically everything on their list. And one of those people ended up saying that they wanted to join the board because they were so impressed that I did follow through of like listening to what they had to say and responding to it and actually doing something about it.

But I think there's an element of that whole process where I didn't know what I was doing and I decided to create my own, uh, training program by just researching the programs that did exist, you know, and that's the thing that I do think, you know, if you're, if you're in a school situation that really checks like some serious boxes, but then doesn't have other things, you know, you can create your own sort of program that, that compliments where you are. And I think that, you know, people, people often forget, we have that agency. We have that ability. The information is incredibly available to us and, and you can do that. You can do that.

[1:07:13] Charlie Murphy: It's so beautifully said. And I think, you know, I think a lot of young people, it's, it's unique to this industry that we feel like, Oh, I just have a BM in piano performance. I just have a BFA in musical theater that we think that sort of what gives us the right to do these other things, what gives us the right to start a company or get, but I do feel like with so many other industries, that's not, no. So you have a BA in English and then you do whatever you have a BA in math or whatever, but you're not doing math professionally. You're doing other things. That's like, yeah, that it's, we, we feel a sort of particular defensiveness, I think because of the nature of how competitive the industry is that you think, well, what will I be able to do with that degree? And the answer is what you want to do, what you think you can do with that degree, you know?

[1:08:02] Mary Mitchell Campbell: Yeah. Okay. Let's wrap a little bit with just some advice in general. So you've given some wonderful advice already, but, but just for a young person, if I'm a 17 year old listening to this and I want to have Mary Mitchell's career, what kind of advice would you give to that young person in terms of sort of the longevity of, of what that would look like?

[1:08:19] Mary Mitchell Campbell: I would say, get into, you know, get in front of as many people as you possibly can get into the room and try to be a fly on the wall. To me, that is like your best. If you're trying to be in the music director or a creative team world, that is, but I would say that about acting as well, get, become a reader for auditions, you know, shadow people, see if you can just go observe, you know, if there's any parts of the process that you can observe and meet people, then please do that. That is, that is really.

[1:08:43] Mary Mitchell Campbell: An incredibly useful way to learn more. And I would say stay curious. Never sort of lay back on things that you already feel like you excel at. And never shy away from the things that make you feel really, really, really untalented. Because we have a tendency to want to not put the work in on the things that don't make us feel particularly good about our artistic abilities. And those are the places that need the most focus. And it really shows how talented and confident you are that you're able to live in that vulnerability. It's scary, but it shows how strong you are as a music director that you're willing to take this conducting additional classes. You have to be willing to be vulnerable and to not feel good about it for a minute. Well said. A great place to end.

[1:09:35] Charlie Murphy: Mary Mitchell, thank you for the time today. This was such a joy to get to chat with you.

[1:09:42] Yes, yes, yes. Love that conversation with Mary Mitchell. What a rock star she is. And, you know, there really are a number of other hyphens we didn't even explore with her. We could have done another hour getting the specifics of what she does on different shows, arranging for concerts behind the table, etc. But I'm trying to resist giving you all two-hour episodes. That said, I'm not going to pretend that I'm going to be quick on these takeaways. It's been three weeks since I've done a takeaway, so I'm going to go long here. We're going to do our best.

[1:10:09] One thing I will be quick on is just to highlight and double-click on that conversation about your authentic self and how that carries beyond the college process into that Kristin Chenoweth story with Steel Pier. I don't really need to add to that because we talked about it so many times before and we really talked about it in the episode. But just double-click with a little bit of joy on that. I thought that was excellent. Same double-click on that mix of self-absorption and the urge to give back and make the world a better place. We had a nice conversation about that. I spend more time on this podcast focusing on that first, on the self-absorbed part of it and how you improve yourself as an artist, but what a beautiful instinct that Mary Mitchell had to focus on that other side as well and how cool that it ended up really actually helping her career success.

[1:10:56] To that self-absorption part of the conversation, I really enjoyed the talk surrounding that balance of hard work and self-care. We've talked about it before on the podcast, but it's such a tricky line to advise in the abstract to a podcast listening audience in general because you always do really need a mix of both. Mary Mitchell is an example of a prodigy-like talent who was also blessed with the constant urge to get better. That's like two different distinct blessings. But then that hard work and that relentless focus on technique, technique, technique, how that mixes with that holistic giving person that she became and the ways that those non-technique related things have really influenced her broader career.

[1:11:41] In some ways, it's a conversation of how hard work and really pushing yourselves can mix with self-care or self-development, if you want to put that into a larger umbrella. But I really think it's not like either or, it is a both and. The drive to work hard, but also not burning yourself out and running yourself into the ground. Especially, I want to say this because we spent so much of January with our seniors talking about health and wellness and the psychology of bringing a healthy whole artist into the room. Now for our juniors and younger students who are just embarking on this process, when you really have so many months to go, maybe the focus shifts a little bit more to the rigor of hard work and what you need to do to grow in your technical foundation and finding the way to do that in a sustainable and realistic way.

[1:12:19] I will say that that balance is often different for different people. It's where do you need the nudge? Do you need the nudge to work harder? Give it to yourself. Do you need the nudge to take a break? Give that to yourself. You all heard me in that conversation with Erica about me talking with my therapist and she's always saying, hey, but where's Charlie in that? Where's Charlie in that? Because I'm someone who's always looking to figure out what a given system needs, what a team needs, and how I can best supply what the team needs as opposed to what Charlie needs. So I need that reminder. But there are definitely people in the world who need to focus a bit more on others. You have to know yourself and know where you think you need to make adjustments.

[1:12:53] Again, a big part of this conversation with Mary Mitchell was about knowing yourself. Are you the kind of person who needs a kick in the butt to get off the couch? Or do you need to take one activity off of your plate and actually enjoy some more Netflix? It is a constant readjusting because that could even change for you within your lifetime. I was shocked. At one point during the pandemic, my wife accused me of being a workaholic and I was truly, genuinely amazed. I was like, me? Me, a workaholic? Lazy old Charlie is a workaholic? But then in reflecting back at the past year, I think I had successfully put the pedal to the metal and given myself that kick in the butt that I actually at that point needed to find more moments of rest. I needed to find more ease in my life. What a great thing for me to have that pendulum successfully swing from what felt like my natural state to actually going too far in a different direction.

[1:13:39] But it is that constant rebalancing for yourself in terms of where you are. I also, I really love, this was just a brief mention in the interview, but this brief mention of permission that Mary Mitchell brought up. There's so many hallways we can always walk down, but in listening back, I heard that door open and I wish I'd returned to that hallway to go a bit deeper into that why of permission. She was saying, why did it take someone else to give me permission to be the artist that I wanted to be? Why did she need John Doyle to give her permission to be that specific kind of multi-hyphenate artist that she always knew in her heart that that's who she was meant to be?

[1:14:09] And while she was saying that, I wrote down the phrase, what gives you the right? It's often I like write down little takeaways when I'm listening. And so I wrote down, what gives you the right? And it's something I think so many young artists struggle with. What gives me the right to have a strong artistic opinion, especially when it may differ from the norm? What gives me the right to walk into this room with confidence and self-assuredness that I belong at a program like this or that I'm the right person to book this role? And then it's funny, it came back up again in talking about the nonprofit world and actually then said, what gives me the right? Because it was on my mind. What gives me the right to be in this fancy room with all these business majors when I only have a puny little BFA or a BM in piano performance?

[1:15:01] I do really think it's something really cool about Mary Mitchell's willingness to be vulnerable and truly receive feedback. She gave that example. She truly was willing to receive feedback from all these people who might know more than she did. Something about that vulnerability also forms and forges that confidence. It forges that spine. So she was constantly working towards self-improvement, was constantly seeking feedback, as you mentioned, that was something she was really interested in. And in seeking that feedback, it allowed her to build up that backbone for herself.

[1:15:28] I'm going to embarrass one of our students. I promise I talk about Junior Intensive, here it is. I don't know if they're listening now, but at our Junior Intensive this weekend, one of our students, and I know both she and mom, these are podcast listeners, so shout out to you, the Aviles family. They were giving advice to our current juniors. So depending on when you listen to this episode, this is a current senior who had just finished Unified, had just finished Chicago Unified, I think is where they were, who had not yet completed her process, right? And she was giving advice to juniors who were just embarking on the beginning of their process, because this was in mid-February as this happens.

[1:16:05] And Andrea said, this is Andrea Aviles, said, by the way of advice, that during Unifieds, I would go into each audition and treat it like a class. What could I learn from these professors and each experience? And apart from just in general, this answer making me like beam with pride as a proud director, and clearly this was someone who's absorbing the lessons of both our coaches and the podcast, as well as like MTCA's general ethos, which is all about that. But it also really struck me how hard it is to get to that point at 17, 18 years old, right? That's a goal for all of our students, but it is not an easy one to achieve, to be able to walk into the room with that much vulnerability and curiosity and say, what can I learn from you? I wonder what this experience is going to be, right?

[1:17:05] That is such a difficult thing, and it takes a great deal of confidence. And what gives you the right to do that, right? That's sort of tied it together to me of going, it's so difficult and it takes so much hard work to get to that point where you can actually be open and vulnerable and not know. And it's funny because I remember Andrea telling me after we had this little pump up at Pittsburgh Unifieds, how much it helped her center herself and get into the right headspace, that she felt like she really needed that, at least that's what she said at the time. She's like, I really needed that, that really, that saved me in that moment. This was back in October.

[1:17:46] And that this was an example of her benefiting from an outside voice, like Mary Mitchell mentioned, an outside voice, which gave her permission to let her authentic light shine in those rooms. But then to see only a few months later that she was able to give herself that permission. She was able to let herself walk into the room with that much confidence without someone in her ear pumping her up. And not only that, but she was also ready still at 18 years old before she finished her project, her process to impart that wisdom to younger students. It was a very proud moment for me as an MTCA director. I was like beaming as I was listening to her say that.

[1:18:18] So I'll just say to any students listening who maybe aren't yet at that point that Andrea's at, I know it is easier said than done, but you do have that right. You have it. You can give yourself permission to walk in the room with confidence and vulnerability and curiosity and to navigate your career in this long life, the way that Mary Mitchell chose to, I should say, and that Andrea is currently choosing to in this moment.

[1:18:36] Okay. And last but not least, just to bring us down a bit from the highs of that specific mountaintop, I thought Mary Mitchell was a really interesting example, kind of a unique example, a rare one, at least, where she chose to go to a BA and her choice to go to a BA was not because she wasn't ready for the intensive training of a BFA or BM, but because she already had surpassed that high level of training in her mind, right? That is pretty rare in the world for a musical theater performer that you would have all three aspects of musical theater at such a competitive professional level that you wouldn't feel that you needed the increased technique of a BFA, but maybe not as surprising for someone who was already playing piano at 10 years old when you're talking about specifically piano technique, right?

[1:19:44] I think that can happen with dancers sometimes that they're already really at a professional level at 18, if they've been taking class since they were three years old, like my sweet daughter, and it could happen potentially with a singer as well in really specific instances, though I think with singing, with a maturing and changing instrument, it's not as likely that you're going to be at your peak as a vocalist at 18 years old, but I'll say that it basically never happens as an actor, right? Whether you're a musical theater actor or a non-musical theater actor, there's basically no such thing as incredibly high level acting class at 12 years old because acting is so closely related to who you are as a human being and the maturity level of a 12-year-old is just not the same as the maturity level of an 18-year-old in terms of the kind of stuff that you can be talking about, right?

[1:20:44] So now, exactly where you draw that line of when you're ready for high level training, of course that's going to differ from person to person, but even the most advanced 18-year-old actors, at least that I've personally met, could almost always use some more cooking, right? Even if it's just about continuing to refine and add technique on top of what is already an excellent foundation if you're in a really strong place at 18 years old. I often use the example of my classmate Will Brill, shout out to that Tony Award that he just won this year for Stereophonic. He came to Carnegie Mellon at 18 as an incredibly good actor, a remarkable actor, but still he grew leaps and bounds at school in terms of technique and what was sustainable and what dropped in for him and what clicked in a repeatable way, right?

[1:21:44] There's so much to learn even if you already are really strong, whereas in that example with dance, I think there's always more to learn, of course, but it is more possible at 18 to already be at a Broadway level, right? And clearly true of Mary Mitchell with her piano skill, though even as she said she was still a lot for her to learn in terms of stuff like sight reading. It wasn't that she was done, but maybe she felt, hey, I've achieved a certain level, right? But most people when they choose a BA, and it seems like Mary Mitchell in this case chose a BA in terms of some of the other skills that she would gain being more important to her because she'd already achieved this level of skill, but most people when they choose a BA over a BFA, it's for the opposite reason. It's because they think they're not quite ready for that intensive level of training or maybe they're just not so sure that they want to specialize as much as a BFA or BM would specialize you.

[1:22:44] Maybe they're saying, I think I still want to do that broader approach and then if I choose later to specialize, I will. This is a kind of an odd choice or odd reason to choose being a BA because they felt artistically in Mary Mitchell's case that she was already fully cooked. Okay. And if there ever was an episode that was fully cooked, it was this one. Produced lovingly by Kelly Prendergast and Megan Courtier with social media work by Jordan Rice and shout out to the theme music composed by MTCA's own Will Reynolds, which I don't say out loud every show, but while we're talking composers and such things, should give a little shout out to Will, a little bit of theme song love. And to be sure you don't miss an episode, make sure you're subscribed on whatever platform you're listening to, or if you're on Spotify and YouTube watching and listening on that platform, you know you can follow us at Mapping the College Edition on Instagram and check out mtca at mtca.com for more information on your individual coaching needs.

Though, as you've heard, you're part of our big tent, no matter what level of engagement you choose to have with MTCA beyond this podcast. To all my young artists out there mapping their journeys, trust that you're enough for the right program, just as you are right now. Now keep striving. We'll see you next week!