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[0:00] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and happy August. Welcome to the end of the summer break series of Mapping The College Audition. I'm still Charlie Murphy, director of MTCA. That's Musical Theatre College Auditions. Check us out at mtca.com. And this is it, our last of these pre-recorded intros and RE-AIRs, recorded blogs, all those things. I hope you enjoyed the bonus content, but I know you are all thirsting to get back to our brand new regularly scheduled programming, of which we have some very exciting stuff that is coming up next week. I hope you all had a blast at our Summer Faculty Masterclass week as you're listening to this, which it has not yet happened as I record this, but will have just wrapped as you are listening.

You'll have had a chance to meet last week's guest Ali Lewis-Borsgi, short of some disaster befalling him or us that week, as well as some of the castmates of this upcoming MTCA alumni guest and Emma Flynn as part of our Broadway Q&A panel that we just did. I will say this was a really fun Wicked 2026 for MTCA, where we've had four different MTCA alum representing just the witches in Wicked, with Talia, who's a previous podcast guest jumping on for a bit earlier in the year, Aluchi, who covers Elphaba, hopefully you met at that Broadway Q&A, Celia, who's both an MTCA alum and former MTCA coach, and then Emma, who you're about to hear. That's two Glindas, two Elphabas, all in 2026, as they would say in Oz.

How thrillifying. I do hope you enjoy this interview with Emma, who I think is really delightful. Before we toss it to the interview, I'm actually going to toss it to myself through a bit of a topper that I added after we recorded. So I added a few months after we recorded this little topper, which does spoil the fact that she's going to be in Wicked, which of course is spoiled for you all already, and talks about the terrible audition story that she's going to tell later in the episode, which is of course about that very Wicked audition that ends up booking her Broadway debut. I'm going to let my past self break it down for you a little bit, but first enjoy me, then enjoy Emma, and we'll be back next week with some new episodes.

Hello, it's Charlie from the future, which is now the past. I'm recording this little intro as an episode topper, even though maybe it should have been an insert into the episode, or maybe even an ending, because what I'm about to say is of course a giant spoiler. If you're listening to this episode, you may already know that Emma recently announced her Broadway debut coming up soon in Wicked as Glinda, and I'll bet if I didn't say anything in this topper, you would wonder when she tells an audition story that she's about to tell in this episode, if it is in fact that audition. So I wanted to confirm for you all that it is in fact that audition. I reached out to Emma after this episode, emailed her, and she said, yes, that is in fact the audition, with a lot of exclamation points and funny emojis.

That may spoil some of the fun of this reveal, so I'm sorry for spoiling it for you, but I think it will help you in hearing the interview itself. Emma's going to tell you a story about having the worst audition ever, how this was a really bad audition. No, no, seriously, actually, not like joking, a really bad audition. And then we're going to talk about it in the truth of that context, which is what she was experiencing that day. And that's not to dismiss the experience of having really bad auditions, which of course does happen, and some people really do bomb in auditions, obviously that couldn't happen. But just to introduce the idea that even as professionals, and Emma is certainly a professional at this point, we're not always the best judges of our own experience.

Emma is judging that audition against her years of expectation, probably since she was 15, 16, 17 herself, of how she would do in a Glinda audition if it ever came, and how she might have that day felt like she came up short of that expectation. But obviously these auditors were able to see through that, see through what might not have been her absolute best that she possibly can do, but also see how perfect Emma is as Glinda, which of course she will be, and I can't wait to root her on. And I say all that for our young listeners, whether you're still in college, right out of college, with their early professional auditions when you have those, and even our high school auditionees too who are hearing this, who I think always spend way too much time trying to parse out the meaning of their post-audition experiences.

If you're listening to this right after I happen to be recording this, you may have just finished Unifieds, and a huge part of what you will say made an audition good or bad will be about some pretty irrelevant stuff that might be said to you behind the table, right? Which when you're talking about scheduled auditions with schools, meaning non-walk-in auditions, these are scheduled auditions that you've applied in advance, the difference between what is said or not said behind the table will normally have much more to do with how a school chooses to conduct auditions than how well or badly you actually did, right? And also, I think it's worth adding in what we can learn from Emma here, that adding in the weight of stakes and expectations, if this is a huge audition for you, if this is a dream school, that that might color your experience of how you did, which it likely does for Emma here.

So again, as you listen on to what I think is a really great interview and a beautifully vulnerable experience that Emma shares, I just want to give you that little flash forward that a TV show sometimes does so that you know the ending as you're experiencing the episode. Let that fact, let that truth wash over you as you also hear the emotional truth and the reality of what she's saying with you now knowing what you know. And maybe for yourself, just think about the ways that we do this to ourselves as artists all the time. I hope you enjoy.

[5:44] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to be joined by Emma Flynn Bespolka, formerly known as Emma Flynn when she was an MTCA student. And we are so excited to do another one of our MTCA alumni interviews. I'm excited to take you through the gauntlet. But first, I will just say, Emma has a BFA from the Hart School and most recently played Cher in Clueless on the West End. So we're going to talk all about, this is our first American guest who has worked internationally in the way that you're going to do it. So we're talking about some international stuff. But before we all do all that, how are you doing, Emma? Welcome on the pod.

[6:14] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Gosh, I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk. I had a plan for what we're going to talk about. But then you came on this call and said that you just had a terrible audition. So we're definitely going to talk about that, too. I'm really going to make you relive it. I was like, I want the deep emotional breakdown on the pod. That will be our first of those, too. So it's exciting to be doing it first.

[6:36] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Oh, yeah. I'm down to emotionally break down. That's my forte.

[6:40] Charlie Murphy: A great skill as an actor to have. But before we do all that, take me through, I want to take our listeners especially through a little bit of your own audition gauntlet in terms of your college audition experiences. You're now joining the ranks of so exciting how many MTCA alum we've had on the pod. We've had Helen Chen and Talia Soskauer and Ali-Louise Borgi and all these amazing. We just had Molly Griggs will be just played two weeks before you, I think, if this timing is right. But it's always fun for us to go through the process and hear about some of the different processes, especially I feel like some of our more veteran guests, our older guests, it was such a different process for them 30 years ago.

And for you, you're going to feel that way from 10 years ago, but it's still not too long ago. But before I take you through the 10 years ago time, give me a little bit of like a catch up on you, you know, in terms of where you've come from in the world. Catch me up to you at around 16, 17 years old as you started thinking about the college process. What do I need to know about you up till that point?

[7:28] Emma Flynn Bespolka: So I was, yeah, I was about actually I just turned 18 when I did my in-person audition. So I was 17 when I was doing my self tapes and like thinking about auditioning. And I lived in Bedford, New Hampshire with my family. And I was one of nine children.

[7:49] Charlie Murphy: Oh, my God.

[7:49] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yes. One of nine children. I was the third. So I was in the older side of the kids. And so I had still lots of children at home. There was still like, I think there was still seven of us at home at the time. And so lots going on. My parents were very busy, obviously, but they still made time for my auditions, which is crazy. And I think I was kind of at first thinking about doing nursing school as well. So I was applying to nursing schools at the same time. And spoiler alert, I got into all my nursing programs and I only got into one musical theater program. So that puts in perspective, too. And yeah, I was deeply insecure. I was like a 17 year old. I didn't I wasn't actually this is what's funny.

Like I think some people go into this fully confident that they are going to make it. I think I went into this loving the art, but had zero confidence that I was actually good at it. Yeah. I was just kind of like, let me go to school and like see. Yeah. But that informed, I think, a lot of the outcome of my college audition program, because I think that that I was like that deep insecurity is something that because I didn't have that belief in myself yet as a human being, like all of the different things that you have to do when you are auditioning, which is a lot of like putting yourself out there. Obviously, a lot of our listeners are going to relate to that. That's why I want you to tell this terrible audition story, which I'm sorry to make you relive.

But I do think a lot of our listeners are going to relate to that idea of going. It is a real battle with their insecurity. You know, we've we've added much more from MPCA perspective. We've added more like wellness coaching and more more psychological prep, even independent of the wellness coaching, just in the coaching itself. We realized the bigger and bigger part of what the battle that young people are going through is like is their self-belief and is the confidence to walk in the room and all those kind of things is a huge part of it. But wait, we're getting ahead. I want to do a little bit. I have to pause and talk a little bit about your parents. So how did your I'm sure we have some parent listeners going doing this process with seven other kids at home.

Oh, my God. Or seven kids at home. So how did they navigate this? Were you mostly doing it on your own and then giving you a little help? Were someone helping you navigate and be stage managing this process? I mean, I don't think my mother was really helpful. I don't think I had the same experience as other people. I think when I look back on it, that's why my parents put me in MPCA, because they didn't have the bandwidth to be like at everything all the time. They're not showing up to every parent meeting and there's no way with seven kids. They tried their best. And my mom especially was really present with me through the whole process. Every time someone is going through the college process, she's very present because she knows that it's going to take up a lot of my mom always says like teenagers need you more than like younger children like a lot of times because they're going through like so many more things and they're just taking on so many responsibilities.

So I have a four year old. You can't tell me that she's going to need me more when she's 17. The amount that she needs us now is overwhelming. I can't believe it. Yes, I know. Right. But it'll be in a different way. Yeah. And like, I think because yeah, it's like children need you in different ways at all points of their life. But I really like appreciate it now looking back, like my mom had so much going on and she still came with me to like Chicago Unified. But that's why I think my mom has always been like a really big. She's always been just like a very intellectual person. And she she was a doctor before she stayed home. And so she cares a lot about education. And she wanted to figure out for each child, you know, like what the best educational route was.

And I think like that's why she wanted MTC or some sort of college prep program, because she knew how difficult the audition process was just from hearing about it. And she was also just very good at like, like being on Facebook and like, like witnessing the other moms and like, kind of figuring out how people are doing it. Because at the time, my both my parents are in medicine, and both my brothers went into like scientific degrees. And I didn't have any friends who had done it. I didn't have any community members who had really done it. So it was really like I was coming in with zero knowledge, and my parents were coming in with zero knowledge. So for us, that's kind of why they took advantage of a college prep program.

Because even though, you know, it's kind of an investment, it was like, if you are a person who like doesn't have any experience or people around you, like a village around you, like that is the village, you have to kind of invest in one. Totally. Um, how much I already heard some mentions of Chicago Unified. How much do you remember the details of the process? Do you remember like, which auditions you did on campus? Do you remember about how many schools you did? You know, talk to me about what do you remember? You did mention self tapes, which I guess you would have been at the beginning of what we called pre screens, or we still call it pre screens.

[12:41] Emma Flynn Bespolka: But do you remember going through that, let's say the pre-screen process, then through the audition process, what sticks out, what sticks in your memory? I remember like almost everything. I didn't do that many in-person auditions because I was so limited by my resources with my family and stuff. So I did mostly Unifieds. I did audition for two programs on campus. It was Hart and it was Pace because I was going, I was so close to Hart and then I was so, like around the time my audition was for Pace, I think I was going there anyways. Like I was going to Unifieds already or something else. So I think—

[13:18] Charlie Murphy: New York City Unifieds, often people do Pace.

[13:19] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah, so it was, and I think I was coming in and out of New York so much that it didn't feel like that much of a thing. And I think I might've come by myself. Like I think my mom came to every single audition. Like I know she went to Hart, but I think there were things that like I got on the train and I, you know, went by myself, which is so crazy to think about now because I, like I was so little. I was like 17, 18 years old, but I think, yeah, I was so green. I still feel green. Like I didn't, when I was auditioning via self-tape, I remember like I used a bed sheet and I taped it to the wall and my dad went and got lights from Lowe's and we put the camera up on like a stool with like a bunch of like things piled on top of it so that the camera would be facing me. And I recorded those self-tapes a million times. Like I, and I still do this. Like these are all, like I learned—

[14:15] Charlie Murphy: All that sounds the same as now, except maybe the lights from Lowe's now people are gonna have a ring light or whatever, but sure, that sounds pretty similar.

[14:21] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I haven't learned a thing, no, I'm just kidding. Honestly, like the process is still grueling. Like it's, I think what I learned now looking back is like that was a really good sort of window into like the professional world of acting, which is like mostly unemployment and auditioning, which is like, you know, that's the work of it. But I digress. I remember so much about auditioning. Oh, I auditioned at Juilliard as well. I went in person.

[14:48] Charlie Murphy: On campus.

[14:49] Emma Flynn Bespolka: On campus. Oh wait, no, not on campus. That was at UChicago Unified.

[14:52] Charlie Murphy: At UChicago Unified. Do you remember the number, I mean, especially because people heard, oh my gosh, one school, you got into it. Luckily it was a great school, but I think the fear was, oh God, one school means you're only one away from zero. You know, do you remember how many you ended up actually applying to?

[15:07] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah, so like over 20.

[15:09] Charlie Murphy: Over 20.

[15:09] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah, I think it was like 22 or 25. Like I applied to like, if it was an affordable program, I was applying to it. The only programs I didn't apply to were like NYU and Boston Conservatory because of the prices. But other than that, I was applying to quite literally like everything that I could. Maybe not Elon because I remember we couldn't afford to fly there. It was too far away.

[15:36] Charlie Murphy: So if you believe it, Emma, as of this year, Elon is coming to Chicago Unified.

[15:40] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Things changed.

[15:40] Charlie Murphy: I'm not surprised.

[15:41] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I'm not surprised because like it really does a disservice to the school to not, like make. You're gonna miss out on talent just on people who can't afford it, yeah.

[15:49] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, because like, you know, not only rich people are talented. Like, you know, there's people from all walks of life. But also, oh, I auditioned on campus at Carnegie Mellon, of course. That was like my dream school.

[16:00] Emma Flynn Bespolka: No, of course, necessarily.

[16:01] Charlie Murphy: That's great that you did. I mean, I do think that's a generational thing. Two things you've said here so specific to your generation is like, one, taking the train into New York, which used to happen, all of our students used to, from Jersey, from two hours away, people would take the train and take the train back all by themselves to coach, to do whatever, to go see shows, to go audition. I mean, that was just, and now I think that is so uncommon, so rare that somebody is doing it all by themselves in that same way. Not that you would never go to an audition by yourself, I guess, if you lived close. But I think more parents and students don't feel, post-COVID, I'm not feeling as much comfort in kids going on their own.

But then the other thing that feels so generational is the idea of you did 20 schools and got into one. I think you're the generation when it really got competitive. The pre-schools were hitting, the competitiveness was really upping, but that has freaked all these people out. It's why they're doing 40 schools. And we go, you don't need to do 40 schools. We have to find a little bit of balance to it or whatever. But I think they get nervous hearing stories like that. And especially knowing someone as talented as you could have been 20 and one. I mean, that would not be the only case where that happened. So I do think you've contributed to the inflation of people's school list with this pod.

[17:12] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I do think you don't have to apply to that many schools. I think I look back and there was a lot of schools that I applied to because I felt like I had to. But the truth is, the school that you're gonna get into is the school that you, well, we can get into that. But I think where it ended up was the school that I felt the least amount of resistance at. And I felt really calm in that audition. And I think I didn't feel calm in any of the other circumstances. And I think that is something that as an adult, I still work on. And I think if you put so much pressure on, I have to apply to 40 different schools, it puts such a weight on you. But then also if you only apply to two, of course, there's pros and cons. But it's like—

[18:01] Charlie Murphy: It's like so many things, it's balance, right? We talk about the balance, the number between two and 40, probably you're gonna balance somewhere in between there. But also, we always talk about the competitive balance too, having enough schools that aren't the most competitive schools on your list that gives yourself a little bit of a breath and a little more security so that you know you'll have multiple options. And that also are not, if they're all the most competitive schools, then you can't guarantee that's gonna happen. I do think more people would do 20, but 16 of them or 17 of them would be most competitive schools. And you go, that really makes the balance tougher. That's why we often talk about six or seven in that competitive tier.

[18:35] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I think also, I look back and, I mean, the Hart School is great and it gave me what I needed, but I wish that I think I had prioritized different things than I did when I was eight. Like you look back and you're like, oh, I actually wish I had, and I'm glad I went because I met my husband and lots of good things happened from it. But I think what you prioritize as a child versus what you actually need in your adulthood is so different.

[18:58] Charlie Murphy: Talk to me about that. What would you prioritize? What did you prioritize then and what would you prioritize differently now if you looked at it?

[19:03] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Well, I prioritized going to a school that was a conservatory program where I was gonna get really intense training. And I think what I discovered was that the training that I got, like it's good to go to a conservatory, it really, really is. But I also think it's really good to have a real life. And I think like when you're an adult, you are in this theater community and if you put yourself in the bubble and you only think about theater all day long and you only think about this one thing all day, it puts, again, you put so much pressure on yourself, you put so much pressure on this thing and like achieving this thing and striving for this success in this industry and it's all you're surrounded by.

And I think for me as a person, I think everybody is different, but I think I would have really benefited from actually like a little bit more life, like a little bit more campus, a little bit more school spirit, a little bit more separation of career and like real life because I think that I did feel the heat, like all four years that I was there and I felt like life or death, like I have to be successful in this program or else like I'm gonna die. Like that's how it feels. And I think like now as an adult, I have such different priorities for myself. I'm like, okay, when it starts to get hot like that, like that's when I actually need to say, okay, I need a break from this environment and I need to like fill my life up with other things that make me feel like grounded again.

[20:43] Charlie Murphy: It's so well said. And I think it's really hard to know at 16, 17, or just at 18, it's hard to know what you're gonna want. I mean, there are people who feel that way, go, oh gosh, the conservatory was too intensive. Even if I knew from my summer program and I tried testing it out and I tried whatever, but they go was too, or the opposite people go, no, I wish I was in a more, I wish I felt more rigor. It's hard to know what you're gonna want when you're 17 until you're in it. And you can't like look back on and like truly no regrets. But I think it is like, as a 17 year old, it's like, it's impossible to know exactly. And to me, I look back and I'm like, there's no perfect choice. There's no right decision. It's just, you make the decision right. It's like, wherever you go, you just make it right. And like—

[21:22] Emma Flynn Bespolka: You make the decision right. I've never heard, I love that. I've never heard that. That's like love the one you're with basically.

[21:31] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, it's like the same thing for marriage. It's like, there's no perfect whatever. It's like, you make a decision and yeah.

[21:40] Emma Flynn Bespolka: You're part of making it right. You're part of making that marriage work. You're part of making the school work for yourself. Yeah, it's like, you can't make a perfect decision or right decision. It's like, you make that decision right. And so putting all that pressure, like I have to find the perfect school or else like my life isn't gonna go. No, it's fine. Wherever you go, you are gonna make it right. And it doesn't have to be actually the perfect in every single way. It just has to be, it has to be as good of a choice you can make in that moment at 17.

[22:07] Charlie Murphy: I love that answer, Emma. Okay, well then that leads me right to, tell me a little bit about A Hart in terms of, in general, we're now over 200 episodes in. So most of the schools from artists episodes, we've heard a decent amount about. So I've been skipping this for some schools, but I think you are our first actual artist guest who went to A Hart. We had A Hart on to talk about the program itself. We had a representative from the faculty, but I'd love to just hear like, what was the experience? How did you make it right for yourself? What was right and wrong? And what was the experience curricularly for you?

[22:34] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah, no, I mean, the curricular experience was like really intense. It was a conservatory, but then also my class was a bigger class than they were used to. I think they had a high acceptance rate year. Like a higher yield than they expected. Yeah, I think like a higher, yes, commitment rate or something. And so we had like 50 kids in my class, which was quite large for their program at the time. And I would say now a lot of the faculty that was there since I was in school has retired actually. So like it's a different, I don't know what the environment is exactly like today, but I can give you an idea of like, you know, if you were a beginner ballet, you were starting your day at 8.30. You know, you were going mostly to dance and acting and voice classes at the, there was a separate campus for the dance and theater kind of world off campus called H-PAC.

So we would go out there. And then most students after their freshman year lived off campus. So it was a very separated world. Like we weren't at the University of Hartford necessarily very much. We were very much at H-PAC, which was kind of a singular building off campus. And it sort of set it up. So it felt like kind of that summer intensive program. Like you're going to this one building, you're really staying there. You don't, I don't know how it is now, but at the time you don't perform in any of the main stage productions until your junior year. So your first two years are really like about the classwork and like the curriculum. And so it was a lot of like, you know, 10 a.m. ballet, and then 11.50 voice, and then, you know, one o'clock jazz. And then, you know, you're going through and then you have rehearsals that you're working on a show as, you know, a freshman intern. So you're like doing, or whatever they call it, like.

[24:22] Charlie Murphy: Crew.

[24:23] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Your crew. So I was like ASM for a show. And then you're in rehearsals until like nine or 10 p.m. And so it's a quite intense thing. And you, if you do have any classes on campus, which you do sometimes, like you have like music theory classes on campus because there's another music school on campus. So it's like a lot of traveling in and out of campus. And I would say I had to learn how to be adaptable. I did not go in, I came from like kind of a rural suburban life before college. And then I went to Hartford, which is like quite different of an experience. It was much more like, you know, not just diverse in people, but also like in backgrounds. And it was like the most diverse place I'd ever been to.

And then also along with that, like it was my first time kind of like living in an urban environment. And that was something I had to learn. And even though I was driving, like, it was my first time like living in an apartment. And, you know, it was a lot of learning.

[25:23] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I think I tried to balance things like I joined a sorority there. There were some sororities on campus. I don't recommend trying to do that if you're in a conservatory program. It's like very, very intense on its own, and it's also like me as an adult, I'm like that was silly. Just make your friends, like no judgment. I did it and it was fun and I have some friends from it, but I think like curricularly it was a very intense program with a lot of different training.

[25:50] Charlie Murphy: Did you feel like— it sounds like maybe I'm getting a little bit of a hint that like maybe partially with a bigger class and the experience of what it was like jumping into conservatory from that more suburban environment, did you feel like a little overwhelmed? Like did it feel almost competitive in terms of like your class of like, oh god, I'm a fish in this pond and I'm trying to swim and I'm like feeling overwhelmed by just the experience of your other classmates?

[26:13] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I think so, and I think there was this feeling for me at least that like, and I still feel this way all the time, but it's like, oh these people have so much more experience than I do or they have so much more knowledge of theater and like the industry than I do. And I really went in like not even knowing the difference between an agent and a casting director. Like I was very lost and I didn't have any parent who— or like I didn't have any, you know, when I was a child, like I didn't have anybody who was really doing this. So it was something I was passionate about because of my high school program and things like that, but I didn't—I was in over my head at college. And I think now, you know, you look back and you're like, compared to spare, like imagine how many of those other kids felt the exact same way, but they're swimming along trying to look like they know what they're doing and you believe them at the time because you don't know what you're doing.

[27:02] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, you graduate and like you're all in the same spaces.

[27:05] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah, like it doesn't matter. But I think at the time it felt like, oh gosh, like because the class was quite large and it was a very intimidating place. I was very intimidated and I really struggled. My confidence was really rocked by being in a very intense program and feeling a little bit like a fish out of water.

[27:25] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, and like I was in this very— it wasn't a huge pond, it was quite like, you know, in the grand scheme of things it was a small pond, but it felt—I was really new to the pond. I was like, I felt like not—I felt like a black sheep a little bit, a black sheep in a pond drowning with thick wooly—thank you for taking my metaphors, I appreciate that.

[27:47] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Okay, I want to take a break and I want to talk a little about your showcase and your professional experience. I'm gonna make you tell this terrible story about yourself, but just looking back at the college process, so we kind of wrap up this section, is there something that you felt like you did particularly well? Like is there an area where you say, hey, I really am proud of my 18-year-old self for this? And then is there something you go, if I could go back, I would try to change it?

[28:10] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I mean, I think I was really—I think if I look back, I had a lot of humility and I think like, you know, it is a good thing to have. I really didn't have this great desire to be chosen or liked more than anyone else. I was just kind of like, I just really genuinely was like trying to find the right school. But I think like that was a good thing because I never looked at the person next to me and I was like, oh, they're going down. Like I never had that personality, and I think like that ended up being really helpful to me as I got older because I never have been very competitive. And I think for some people they need that like competitive edge to survive the industry because that's the way that they cope.

And I think I've never been a competitive person, maybe with myself, but I've never been competitive like with other people necessarily. And I think that really saved me some—I would sometimes put other people like on a pedestal, but I think—and I also worked really, really hard. I think like I look back and I'm like, you know what? I didn't know what I was doing, but I really gave it my new strength in person.

[29:13] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, so is there anything on the flip side if you were to say, man, I wish I could have done this a little better? I wish I could go back and tell myself this, just a little more of this?

[29:26] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Oh gosh, just get over yourself, girl! Like just, you know what? Like screw it, just go in there and like don't be so insecure, like genuinely. And like because it's not about you, and I think like that's what I—you know, I'm still working on now. It's like just, it's not about you. Just—it is about you, but in that—in the room you're just sharing yourself. You're not like—you don't have anything to prove, you just have things to share. And I think I look back and I wish that I had just lent—I wish I had leaned into who I was more as a person with my material. I felt this need to be different. I was like, oh, I don't want to do, you know, anything like Glinda-y or, you know, that's who I am.

So it's like don't feel this great need to like push away from who you really are. Like you can just really lean in and be like, you know what? Like I am a blonde girl and I'm going to be in movie musicals and like that is like my type. And you know, I love—but just like—

[30:23] Charlie Murphy: I love that you said that.

[30:28] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I do think that, you know, we talked so much and I think people correctly hear the reaction to 25, 30 years ago in misinformation about having to play into type. And so they hear people going, you don't have to do that, you can be whatever you want to be. And I think sometimes people like, so should I do something that's not what I look like? Do I have to do that? It's like, no, of course not! Like if you happen to look like something that feels like it's who you are, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just about not putting yourself into a box because someone else told you to. But it's also like, it's a weird different kind of box if you're like, I have to play against type and now I'm putting myself in opposite type mode or some weird other thing. All this type stuff, I'm like, if you are—if you want to play Elle Woods and you look like Elle Woods, it's okay! You just go for it, girl!

[31:07] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Sing so much better! I honestly wish I could tell myself that, you know, now ten years later because now like my—I only sing one audition song pretty much for every single audition, I mean for every audition ever, and it's like from Rock of Ages and like that is completely within my type. And like, yeah, and the thing is, is like you just—it helps you in the long run if you can be like, you know what? I'm really good at this thing and I completely match it and I'm a package, then you're like, great, I know exactly what to bring in.

[31:37] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, that's true. It's so often like that's too easy or I'm—I think I'm gonna be boxing myself in. You go, but if it is who you are, it's just that you don't have to sing Elle Woods if that's not who you are. If you happen to look like that but you're like, but secretly on this, do that other thing.

[31:50] Emma Flynn Bespolka: But yeah, all right, that's a great place to leave it. Let's do a little break and we'll come back. We'll talk about your professional life a little more.

[31:54] Charlie Murphy: All right, we are back with Emma Flynn Bespolka. Before we get into—I want to go deep into your professional career, I'm talking about showcase, I want to talk whatever, but I can't wait any longer to hear the audition story. So will you tell us the most modern thing that just happened to you? This is why Emma thought she might be late to this podcast. She ended up being 30 minutes early, which by the way is very good. Even late as early, on time is fired, whatever those things are. But go ahead and tell me, will you tell me what happened in this audition that was so—

[32:22] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Oh god, it—well, I'll preface it with this. I haven't been to an audition in over a year and a half, so this was my very first in-person audition in over a year and a half.

[32:30] Charlie Murphy: And because you're only recently back to the States, right? You— we're gonna talk about being overseas, but give me a little your time trajectory back to the States.

[32:37] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah, so I basically got back in September, but then I've been back and forth for the past like couple of months actually. Like I've been back to London twice and now I'm going back again tomorrow. And so I've just been doing a lot of traveling and then back and forth from my parents' house to New Hampshire and I just moved into my apartment here. So like I thought back like about—I want to say when did I get back? Monday. Monday, two days ago.

[33:07] Charlie Murphy: Two days ago? Oh my gosh, here we are!

[33:14] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Okay, so now people hearing this is maybe a month later, but we're saying two days ago was your first audition in New York. Okay, so now can you tell us what the audition was? Can you tell us how it went? Give us whatever.

[33:20] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I'll say this, I don't know if I can say like what it is, but I'll say this: it's a big musical that everybody knows and it's the girl you think that I went in for.

[33:38] Charlie Murphy: Okay, I got it. I mean, it's exactly who you think it is, right?

[33:42] Emma Flynn Bespolka: So I taped for this, and just to put it in perspective, like I taped for this while I was in London. I had to run to a studio, I had to borrow a ring light, everything, the whole nine yards. And I was doing the self-tape going, I know that I'm so right for this and that everybody, you know, wants me to do this thing, but there was just this like something—the universe, I don't know, just like pushing back. Like every time I would go to start the song, a truck would like go by and honk its horn. Like it was just like the—like something spiritual was happening, whatever. I was like, these tapes are not good. Also, I pretty much immediately, as soon as I got the tape, came down with pneumonia, so I was like so sick anyways. Sent in the tape, got the appointment. I go to the appointment today. I've been prepping for like a week, but I've been like traveling around and stuff.

[34:29] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I would say right now—and this is something that if you're listening, kids, like note this—so when you're very stressed out in your life and you're not settled and you're not grounded and your two feet aren't on the ground, it's not a great time to go in for the biggest things that I know. And like for you to be successful, I mean everybody's different. I'll say this: for me to be successful in a room, I really have to have like both feet on the ground in—like I mean that in my life. And right now, like I very much do not. Like I'm back and forth from London, I'm like all over the place. I know that like it's just not the time right now for things to be going well for me. But I also got this tape and have this audition and like I do have to continue forward. So I considered—I was like, should I cancel it? Should I not? I'm just gonna go.

[35:21] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Well, I honestly wish I had just trusted my gut and been like, you know what? I don't need to go in for this this year. It's okay, it'll be around. It's a show that is gonna stay around for another 20 years and like it'll be here. But I was like also the dissonance of being like, oh, but it only auditions once a year, I have to go. You know, I was like, okay, I'm gonna go. I put so much pressure on myself. I, you know, wore a very costume-like outfit. I go in. I've never met this casting before, I've never met these people before, and they're like, well, I don't—they're like, oh, lovely dress! And, you know, I'm talking too much because I'm nervous. I'm like, oh thanks, it's not mine, it's my friend's I borrowed it. And it's just like a zip your lips, girl! Like it was just a classic tale of like being really nervous, saying too many things. They're giving me notes and I was just not able to think.

[36:01] Charlie Murphy: It was just a nervous Nelly audition.

[36:14] Emma Flynn Bespolka: And you tell me, give me a little more of a picture of what—so what—when you said I bombed it, what was—and often, I mean, I don't—not saying you didn't, maybe you really did bomb it, but often that experience may feel like it's more dramatic on our end. What were the things that happened? You know, you said you weren't able to process because you were in your head. Like what was the experience for you of going, this was a bomb?

[36:32] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I did not—I think I was very nervous and for me, I already have a pretty hot engine naturally, and so when I'm nervous, it's like, oh, like I'm the end. So they quite literally asked me to please calm down.

[36:48] Charlie Murphy: No, they did?

[36:48] Emma Flynn Bespolka: They said, please calm down! You're like just calm—just because—and I was like, I was like, I'm totally calm! I'm like completely calm! You know, I'm like not calm at all. I was so nervous and I think I was really judging myself. Like after I finished a song, I would like put judgment on it. Like—and they were like, don't—you know, when you finish, just let it go.

[37:12] Charlie Murphy: They were like coaching you in the audition?

[37:12] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yes! I was kind of—I felt like this anxiety, I think from my real life, yeah, it gets carried into the audition room. So that's a very, you know, big lesson. And I'm at my big age now, I really should know better, but I think we never grow out of our nerves, like ever. I think like they say we're always nervous. Like, I mean, not everybody is, but I'm saying if you're a nervous person, like you pretty much don't grow out of it. Not to scare you, but just to say you have to have tools in your life and part of that is like honestly just setting up a foundation for yourself and not rocking it. So like allowing yourself to like build a life outside of theater. And I think something that not everybody needs, but for me, I'm like, okay, I really need my two feet on the ground. I really need like to get my apartment set up. I really need to have a day job that I like and to have—

[38:05] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Daily life that has structure and stability in it because the industry is so unstable and so unstructured. And today, when I was in the room, what they were probably reacting to was that frenetic energy that I was coming in with that anxiety.

[38:20] Charlie Murphy: So what do you do now? I mean, other than this wonderful therapy session that we're trying to do to help you synthesize and debrief it all, what do you do now going, okay, that's one audition. It won't be the only audition. How do you debrief, synthesize? How do you get your feet back on the ground? Do you call on mom? Are you calling your husband?

[38:39] Emma Flynn Bespolka: You have to grieve it for a moment. You have to allow yourself to feel embarrassment and sadness and shame. All the things like, you know, it's just information. And I think the also the thing you have to tell yourself is like, I can't change it. I can't. I did it. And you know what? I'm embarrassed. Sure. I feel embarrassed. I feel like I feel ashamed. But you also just have to say, I can't change it now. And so like in the grand scheme of things, it really is just one audition.

[39:08] Charlie Murphy: And who judging you is going to think, oh my God, I guess she's a terrible actor instead of being like, well, she had a bad audition. Even if it was as bad as you think it was, which maybe it wasn't quite as bad. Maybe it felt worse inside than it may not have been as remarkable to them as it felt to you. Who knows? I don't know. But even if it was, they've seen a lot of bad auditions.

[39:26] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah. And I think also you just have to be like, you know, nobody's thinking about you. Nobody's thinking about you that deeply. Everybody's moving on with their lives. If anything, they were like, oh, that was kind of embarrassing. And then they move on. You know, even a worst-case scenario, they're sitting there like, oh my gosh, she's terrible. Or even if like that's a real face plant. I'm like, how many times have they seen a face plant? We've all seen people face plant.

[39:49] Charlie Murphy: That's it. And it won't be my last one. I'll tell you that. Like everybody, I think it's just information and you do have to be forgiving to yourself. Like I'm saying that for myself too. Like I want to beat myself up so badly and be like, you dummy. Like you messed up everything. You know, but I think this has happened to me before. And I think also the older you get, the more you see your track record and you're like, okay, I have like totally bombed before.

[40:15] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Right. It's just one small part of my story. You know, and that's okay. Like I think I'm not a great auditioner. And I think a lot of people feel that way in the industry. And so you just have to be like, I need to rewire some things in my brain. I shouldn't say I'm not a great auditioner. I should rewire that. I am a good auditioner. Because you are what you say about yourself.

[40:38] Charlie Murphy: But you're saying you're a person capable of having bad auditions, which everybody is capable of that.

[40:42] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Of course. By the way, everybody is. And I think it's also like a learning lesson. Like everything's just information. For the rest of the day, though, I will like probably call my mom, probably cry. Probably I have a meeting at four. I'm going to focus on that. And then guess what? Like I'm going to go do something fun with my husband or like cook dinner and like move on. Because guess what? I can't change it.

[41:04] Charlie Murphy: I love it. I mean, that is, I think, our first. I mean, I think we may have heard some funny audition stories, but that's sort of the we've heard so many audition stories of the job that booked my Broadway gig or whatever. But assuming and maybe we're wrong, maybe you'll end up booking. Maybe this is the first booking of you get a callback a year later and you do end up booking this bar. Who knows? You know, but otherwise this would be the first story we've had on the bottom just about audition.

[41:26] Emma Flynn Bespolka: But boy, is that relatable.

[41:27] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[41:28] Emma Flynn Bespolka: And boy, is it like we talk about it with, you know, the getting to January and February for these students who are doing this process of like how important getting yourself to a psychologically prepared place is. Like you said, two feet on the ground. I think that is such a you're never going to have exactly two feet on the ground in high school going through this process. But like walking in as a psychologically, you know, we talk about psychologically competitive, meaning are you in that place where you feel your strongest, you're bringing your whole self into the room and it's hard to do. But it's so it's almost more important by that point than your material or some of these things where it's like, can you walk in and be your best person versus not? If you're shaking like a leaf, it's hard to get to meet who you actually are.

[42:06] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah, and I think like whatever that is for you, it may not be the same as like the person next to you. I think it's just, you know, I think preparation is key. But even if you prepare, you know, completely, I mean, you still sometimes you can't also control. Yeah, sometimes things just happen.

[42:25] Charlie Murphy: And also you just have to trust like I and I say this for myself too, like you just have to trust that like that experience or that place like you weren't meant to go there. And like that's a hard thing to swallow sometimes. But like you were meant to go somewhere else. Like it's not a bad thing. It's just a redirection. And I think like people always say like our rejection is redirection, but it really is like you don't know, like maybe if you've gone to that school, like you would have had a terrible time or you would have, you know, and you just it's again like you just make it. You make the decision, right? And you make it right.

[42:59] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I love that. All right, let's jump back a little bit. So you're graduating from Hart. Can you tell me a little bit about your showcase experience? And most importantly, I want to hear how do you end up in London? So give me that journey of how do you are you finding an agent immediately? I know we're about to hit the pandemic basically right after you graduate. So in terms of all that timing, but I guess how was the graduation, your entry into the business and then how on earth do we get over to London?

[43:19] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah. So, gosh, when I graduated, it was right before the pandemic. And then I got my first like equity principal job. I was going to go do like this great regional theater. And then the whole world shut down and it got canceled and I didn't get my equity card and all these things.

[43:38] Charlie Murphy: And for showcase, jumping back, I broke my foot my senior year.

[43:43] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Oh, my God. Leo will love that. He loves telling his broke his foot story.

[43:46] Charlie Murphy: I love it. You broke your foot doing what?

[43:47] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I'm dancing. I was I was recording an audition for Norwegian Cruise Lines for Jersey Boys. And I was dancing, which I never dance. I don't know why I was in for this, but I was doing a dance to Jersey Boys and I went to do it. I don't remember what I was doing a chassé, like I was just doing super simple and I just twisted my foot and I broke it. And then my friend like wheeled me to her car and like took me to the hospital. And now she's a great Broadway dancer. She's got like good juju. But I ended up doing my showcase with a broken foot and I was in a boot and my song, we only could sing one song and it was like 30 seconds because we had such a big class that, you know, we couldn't have that many people.

And I remember like I was doing on the other side of the tracks, which is from Little Me and I, you probably know it from all the auditions, but I got to the part where it's like, and I'm off and running over the rail. And I had my boot on and I was like running in my boot and they were just like they ate it up. And I was like, great. And I ended up and ended up being such a blessing in disguise because people like recognized me as the girl with the broken foot.

[44:57] Charlie Murphy: Stand out with that boot.

[44:58] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah. And so I ended up going in a meeting with a couple of agents. I signed with an agency who then I worked with for like six years. I'm still with them now.

[45:06] Charlie Murphy: And I was like really struggling. I went and did a Norwegian cruise job.

[45:14] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I was again after the broken foot. My God. So I ended up doing Kinky Boots with Norwegian. And again, like I was so nervous in the audition. I was in a boot. I know. I didn't even get Lauren. I was like her understudy. So I was understudying Lauren on the cruise. And then about four months into it, we all got laid off. They decided that they wanted to close the show, which like never happens like on cruises, like you never close. Like usually it's just like, you know, you're stuck on this cruise. You can't you can't even sell tickets to the one show that's happening.

[45:46] Charlie Murphy: I know. So they decided they wanted to shut down the show. And now Norwegians like shutting down a lot of their musicals. I don't know if they like the pandemic affected a bunch of, you know, that we don't. But anyways, I did that cruise ship. I came back. It was still like post-COVID times. Things were pretty dead, but I was trying to get seen and I just could not get past self-tape. I was a very nervous auditioner. I was not doing well in the room, all the stuff. I decided I'm going to take some time off. I got married. I took about six months off and I was working for a woman who was going through a medical emergency. I was her nanny. And so I ended up just like kind of just focusing on her family and her and her baby.

And I took some time off and I was just nannying for them. And then about October. So it's been about six months since I got off the ship. I got married and everything. I was like, oh, I really miss like singing for people. So I went and actually took a lesson with Dan Michique, who's the music director. And he was the one who was like, have you ever been in for Glinda? And I was like, no, I've never been in for anything. And he was so kind. He like somehow got me an audition like the next week to come in for Glinda. I totally bombed. I was like the most nervous auditioner ever. Just like today, I walked in and I was shaking in my boots and I just completely bombed and ran out of the door. I ran out of the audition building crying like I was just horrified.

And Dan and I met again and he was like, just go to auditions. You just need to go because you're just so green. You just need to go get into rooms and like basically just become a better auditioner. Never going to book Glinda if you're green. If that's one thing.

[47:34] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[47:34] Emma Flynn Bespolka: So I was like, okay, I'm going to listen to this music director. He's clearly very successful. I go to like every I'm like, I'm going to go to every open call. So I told my boss, I was like, I'm going to take a Thursday off work. I went to Pearl Studios, signed up on the list at like four a.m. and then at like now they do. They don't do that anymore. Apparently they have no more unofficial lists. I don't know.

[47:56] Charlie Murphy: I got online lists is what I hear. Yeah.

[47:58] Emma Flynn Bespolka: And so at four p.m., the monitor comes out and she's like, actually, so sorry. We're not going to have time to see anyone today. And I was like, dang it. I waited all day. But then my friend. Sorry, this is a long story. I'm getting there.

[48:08] Charlie Murphy: Great story. We love it.

[48:09] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah. So my friend calls me and he's like, hey, I'm across the street. I'm at an open call for Tommy on Broadway and like nobody showed up. Like there's nobody here. So if you want to come over, you can get seen right away. And I was like, great. So I go in. I sing like 30 seconds of a rock of ages. And then I left and I didn't think anything of it. But then casting reached out to my agent and they were like, hey, we just met this girl, Emma, and we'd love to bring her in for this new show that they're doing in London called Clueless. And I was like, oh my God, I'd love Clueless. Like, that sounds perfect. And I was like, so I go to the audition. I go to several callbacks. It's the only thing I'm in for.

It's my first basically audition after bombing my Wicked audition. And I got the job. And then after that, I did it out of town in Bromley. And in the UK, it's kind of like doing it at Paper Mill. And then I came back to the States. I did Legally Blonde and then I did Beautiful. So I did those like kind of back to back. And then I went and did Clueless again in the West End. And then I'm basically just kind of getting back now.

[49:18] Charlie Murphy: But that's how you're nominated for all kinds of awards. Maybe did you win them? I don't know. I thought those are awards that are happening.

[49:21] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I was nominated. I lost to Rachel Zegler, of course. She's an honor to lose to her. I know. And, you know, it was public voting. And I was like the second I I was like, okay, she's 2.5 million followers. I was like, I'm going to go ahead and say, like, even if she gets one percent of her followers to vote, like it will still be all of us. So that was exciting. I, you know, just went to the awards a couple of weekends ago. And, you know, she's so cool and she deserves it. But yeah, I don't know. I have another awards that are coming up in March, but we'll see.

[49:56] Charlie Murphy: And that means you're flying back and forth to these awards.

[49:58] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah. Yeah. So when you say you're kind of living a little bit in New York, a little bit in London, what does that look like? I mean, first, are there is there future for Clueless that's happening in London or is that now over?

[50:09] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Clueless is pretty much over, I would say, but they're going to tour. And I don't think I'll be on the tour. Stay tuned. But I project I will probably not be touring. Stay tuned to this space.

[50:20] Charlie Murphy: But what about so are you but are you also auditioning for things in London, other things in London?

[50:24] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I'd like to. Yes.

[51:17] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Apply for that. It's kind of in application now, but I basically can't take any work until I have the right to work. And I could still go audition now that my visa is like kind of in the works. But yeah, I am sort of waiting to see if I get approved and maybe this is a situation where those awards help would help you even the nominations because like, yeah, you see that I'm promising. Yeah, like there's different parts of the visa that you need. So there's like performances, reviews, and any awards. And you also have to have letters of endorsements. So I had to have letters of endorsements from like the producers, from the creatives. It's a long, it's a long, expensive, arduous process. But then the fruit of it is that you can work in the UK for five years.

And for me, kind of being back and forth, the vibe in New York is just very, right now, things are really, really difficult. So in the UK, even though things are also difficult, it's just slightly less. There's slightly more going on.

[52:22] Charlie Murphy: Are you having two different agents? Are you still working with an agent in New York? But are you working with London?

[52:25] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I'm meeting with UK agents. I haven't, that's a secret, but I haven't signed with anyone. But it's definitely on my radar. I think my agent is American. And there's like kind of limitations. I don't know that he could rep me in the UK. I don't know what the laws are. I'm pretty sure you can't. Like, I think you have to have like an agent that is actually like officially in the UK.

[52:52] Charlie Murphy: Licensed there.

[52:52] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah, like licensed there and everything. But that being said, like, if you book a job and you're American, and like your American agent, like can negotiate, like he negotiates everything for Clueless.

[53:04] Charlie Murphy: For Clueless. Yeah, yeah.

[53:05] Emma Flynn Bespolka: But then that being said, they auditioned in the US.

[53:07] Charlie Murphy: Right. So that's them. They're auditioning you as an American versus whatever, if you're auditioning in the UK.

[53:12] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Exactly. So.

[53:14] Charlie Murphy: How, I have to ask this question as the husband of a very successful Broadway person. How does your husband feel about all this? Of like, you get to pick whether we're in London or the US? Does he move with you? How does that go?

[53:25] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah, no, I mean, I wouldn't do it unless he could come with me. I think that was like a contingency. And also, if he wasn't happy, then I would never force him to, you know, do this. And, and like, there's things that I don't do, because it just wouldn't work with our marriage. Like, and that's just different for everyone. Like, I personally, like, don't want to tour because I don't want to, I just don't want to be away from my husband for that long. And I think everyone is different. But for me, going to the UK was different than touring, because it was like, we were uprooting, and we were staying there. So he went back to school online, and he was sort of just game, like, God bless him. I mean, he's like the best business partner.

Like, he just kind of was like, he just picked up and came with me. And that was super, just amazing of him. And he's been super supportive of the whole thing. And he's like, kind of my biggest. Yeah, he's my number one. Like he was there. It was up and down. And he was there through it all. And yeah, but again, like, if he wasn't happy, then I couldn't do it, because I just I that's not worth it to me.

[54:29] Charlie Murphy: But I know, and I know I'm asking this question in the midst of it happening. So it's hard to tell your life as it's happening now. But you mentioned the idea of getting two feet on the ground. How do you get two feet on the ground in either place? If you have a little bit of a sense of I'm kind of between like, are you really going to be like, I really have a home base in New York and really a home base in London? Is it are you focused mostly in New York, and you're going to see what happens with this visa? Like, how do you figure out how to manage your life? If you're thinking about it could be this, it could be that?

[54:55] Emma Flynn Bespolka: That's something I like I was still thinking about. Because, of course, the dream is to work in both places. But I think also, for me right now, I really need a break. So I and I really haven't taken one. So I have a sublet here in New York until March. And I'm giving myself that time. Like, I, you know, of course, had auditions, you know, a little bit when I came back. But I think my goal right now is to just kind of set up my life in New York and be here for a little bit while my visa is being processed. Because I do think that is actually really important to give yourself time and to get both of my feet back on the ground and also just put my head back on straight because doing eight shows a week is one thing.

Carrying a show is another thing. Carrying a show in a different country without your family, without your friends, without your support system is like a totally other thing. And like, it wrecked me like, not because it was bad, but because it was so much so much. And I don't think I gave it enough credit. And I think now that I'm coming off of it, I haven't quite taken the time that you know, is necessary. And I think like, it's just what you said. It's like, I haven't really quite gotten my feet back on the ground yet. And I'm really feeling that. And I think at a certain point, you need to just start being like, you know what, I'm going to start saying no to everything and just take this time.

[56:19] Charlie Murphy: You're a human being too who has limits.

[56:25] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah, the tendency is to be like, oh, I have to keep going. I have to keep getting the next thing. But like, you really don't actually. And you won't if you keep trying to do that. Like, you do need to be a whole person before you can. I mean, you can take on in the next thing. But like, you won't be able to enjoy it or process it fully, like if you are half a person. And I think, yeah, in order to be able to book the next thing to you have to get yourself to that, to the point of could you have booked this audition today? Maybe, but not today. Maybe maybe it needed a month from now, you could have booked this audition or whatever. It's not about talent. It's really about being okay in yourself and like being confident, because honestly, like there are plenty, can I say this, there's plenty of untalented people who just have the confidence of God and they just working.

I think it really is like, if you're not a confident person, it's okay. Like, I'm not either. But I think it is about not just making yourself confident, but like making yourself be like, I'm okay. Like, I actually just don't need to think about myself. Like, you know, I don't have to over, you know, criticize myself, I can just be okay. And part of that is just getting your feet on the ground and setting up a foundation for your life.

[57:30] Charlie Murphy: So well said. And yeah, whatever those people are drinking, the people who have the confidence of God, we got to find out the elixir.

[57:39] Emma Flynn Bespolka: If you have like natural confidence, like what are you doing? What are you doing? Like, tell me everything. I love it. Okay, let's move toward wrapping up here. So I'd love to talk about, you know, you mentioned to the we talked about your parents in the craziness of them raising nine kids. You know, either from the parent perspective, or from the, you know, the young artist perspective, do you have any advice in terms of like, for I'd love to hear both from parents how they can best support their children is a double, I guess, double advice. And then for the our 17 year old listeners, you know, is there any big advice that you just have for them in terms of this college process, but also just in terms of their life and career?

[58:20] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Oh, that's such a good question. I would say, for parents, I would say, oh my gosh, um, I think everybody just like, take a deep breath. Like, the most important thing is like your child's mental wellbeing, like genuinely, and I think like, and yours, and I think there's so much pressure to be like, successful in this process and like, get into the best schools and like, or even just like get into a lot of schools have lots of options. And I think like, um, it's okay, if that's not your child, because like the, in the long run, that's not what's going to make them successful, what's going to make them successful. Again, it's really like, not actually that much about talent, like talent's a prerequisite.

Like the most important thing is that they're a whole person. And like, whatever they need to feel psychologically supported is like the best thing. And I think sometimes that means like living life, like, okay, like, let's take a break from everything. And like, let's just go. I don't know, like, go get our nails done, or I don't know. And I think also like, preparation, but not to the point of psychosis, like allow yourself to get really prepared and then do it in three takes, and then maybe take a day. And then if you want to record something again, like do it again in three takes, but don't be, you will find that you're going to waste so much time spiraling, and then you're going to end up taking the first option that you had anyways. And so just allow yourself to, to, yeah, I would say take a deep breath.

[1:00:04] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. I love that. As we talk about that so much with this process of like, preparation is important, of course, but what are you preparing toward? We're not preparing toward perfection. We're not preparing toward, this is the perfect take, right? We want to prepare for anything toward the ability to be joyful and flexible and let the thing go and serve it up, you know? So like, to the point of if you have to do it 15 times, you're probably not actually leaning toward the right goal either. You're not getting that place. You're not changing anything that's necessarily, just tightening it.

[1:00:32] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Yeah. All you're doing is like, the most important thing is you can do is relax. Like, get into meditation, get into yoga, get into prayer, whatever you have to do to just like, relax. And I also think like, during this process, like, if you don't have a higher power, like this sounds so like, woo woo, but like, get a higher power. Like if you believe in God, go to church. If you are, you know, go to synagogue, go to, go pray, go do whatever you need to do to spiritually root yourself because the more you can let it go and let God or let the universe and just trust that higher power that actually they're working for your good, like, the better. And that might be woo woo. And I don't know if they can teach that in MTCA, if that's like, legal. But I do think...

[1:01:15] Charlie Murphy: We're not going to force you to have a higher power, but I like the advice of borrowing one. I feel, I mean, I'm someone who's not religious myself, but Boyd, I use a lot of that sort of spiritual advice of going, how do you let go and let God? I mean, and if you can borrow one for this process, please, it's a great idea. It's great advice.

[1:01:33] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I think you have to sometimes be like, all right, I can't do this on my own. I need to just like, leave this with God and kind of like, trust that He's got me or, you know, the universe has got me and they're working for my good. Like you, sometimes you need that higher power. And like, definitely during, because so much of it is out of your control. Like, everything is out of your control. The things that you can control are like, you and like, your well-being.

[1:01:58] Charlie Murphy: I love it, Emma. That's a great place to wrap it. Thank you for the time today. If people want to check out more, we know what we can follow you on Instagram. Should we be looking for his Clueless, maybe coming to the States eventually after touring? Do you have any idea of such things?

[1:02:10] Emma Flynn Bespolka: I don't know. I mean, stay tuned, maybe.

[1:02:15] Charlie Murphy: Stay tuned to see a year from now, whether Emma books the big role in the big Broadway show that you would expect her to be booking. We'll find out. Definitely not this year, but maybe next.

[1:02:24] Emma Flynn Bespolka: Maybe next year. I really appreciate the time, Emma. Thank you.

[1:02:34] Charlie Murphy: Yes, yes, yes. What a delight she is, right? Just the best. I feel like she both sounded useful and also very much of her generation, but then also really mature and how honest and vulnerable she was. And she really came at it from a perspective that I thought was really mature, which I guess in some ways is true of a lot of people of her specific generation. So I really enjoyed that conversation. All right. I'm going to try to be really quick with some hitters here. I often say that, but I'm going to try to actually do this. I jotted down a bunch of bullet points, but I'm not going to deep dive into any of them. These are all going to be just quick underlines, quick hitters. Some of these may be like future longer takeaways and blogs and all those kinds of things as we often do, but let's dive into some really quick hitter takeaways.

I just want to quickly underline and bold face that idea of like being yourself versus the idea of playing against type. We basically said it in the episode, but just worth underlining that you don't have to play against who you are to be who you are.

[1:03:28] Charlie Murphy: Or Glinda, there's nothing wrong with being a Glinda, right? Especially if, like Emma, you get to show off some of your sense of humor in being a Glinda, which might be specific and unique to her. And we saw, she told that showcase boot story that she was doing, and it sounds like it was a really special opportunity for Emma to show off her own quirkiness and her own sense of humor. Though, wait a second, did you all notice, I don't think she got my joke about not booking Glinda if you're green. She meant green like new to the industry, but of course I meant green like Elphaba. You all got it, right? You all got the joke. We all just saw the Wicked movie, I'm sure. You all listened and got it and thought, Emma, you're missing this one.

Oh, my other side note to this takeaway was also, have I told, I think I've told on the pod before my story of me in a boot. It was the best dance call that I've ever done was me after really destroying my ankle and being in a walking boot for two months. Not that I'm telling you all to go out there and injure yourselves so you audition better, but at least for me, it turns out I am much better at acting like I can dance than actually dancing. And I remember the choreographer told me right after casting me, she was like, I could tell from the way you moved with that boot that you really are a great dancer. And then a couple weeks into rehearsal, she was like, I was wrong. So there you go.

[1:04:39] Charlie Murphy: Okay, that was a single underline and it went way too long. We're gonna go faster here, I believe in us. I really love that conversation about the confidence of God that Emma was talking about. Some people have the confidence of God and she wishes she did. And what we talked about really in Lisey's episode, I invite all of you to listen back to that one. It's many months ago now, but just how important it is to find that belief in yourself. You might not ever be the most confident person nor do you have to be. You don't have to walk in with like swagger if that's not who you are. But like, I think you could all hear in what Emma was talking about, the difference between Emma having her feet on the ground and not is how she kind of put it, right?

And I think that's true for a lot of our students. It's why I always talk about how much backbone can you bring into the audition? How much spine, right? How much confidence can you possibly have? And how really, as I see it, more of that is the issue versus too much confidence in terms of like most of what I'm seeing with our kids. But Emma put it another way. She didn't really talk about it in terms of confidence for herself. It was more about, am I solidly planted and sure of who I am as a person? And I think it's a great way of putting it as well. And that leads into another bullet point I dotted down, which is just the idea of like bringing your whole person into the audition room. It's what we just talked about in this recent wellness webinar, that like your whole body and spiritual and mental wellness is your psychological competitiveness in this process.

And I think actors sometimes try to separate that out. There's like, there's where I'm in my career, but then there's where I'm in my life. And those are two separate things, but often they are the same thing, right? And certainly for the college process, where the schools are meeting you as a person more than just meeting your talent and just meeting you as a performer, what you can do for that whole person health is only gonna be a positive thing for you in this audition process.

[1:06:18] Charlie Murphy: And then also just an under underline Emma put it so well, of course, you can tell an MTCA alumni, she knows a lot of things, all of our MTCAs will have heard this before, but that idea of really allowing yourself to grieve after a rejection, you know, Emma talked a bit of both in terms of rejection or just in this case, a bad audition, which she was talking about. But then after you've given yourself that time, that 24, 48 hours, whatever you need, then trying to really focus on what you can control and move forward, right? It's such a good philosophy for life, I think in general, but also just necessary in this specific college process with how fast moving it is and how many auditions there are, and that you're gonna get so many results, both positive and negative, they're gonna be sort of flying at you, you have to have a process to grieve, to process, and then to move forward and focus on what you can control.

And that also kind of parlays into a quick bullet point that I really liked what Emma talked about in terms of borrowing a higher power for this process. I mean, I love that Emma was even using some of my specific phraseology, right? She used that idea of let go and let God, which of course I didn't invent, but I say that a lot, the idea of you gotta let go and let God, again, the reason I bring up this point is despite not being a religious person myself, I'm not somebody who believes in God per se, but I certainly believe in that idea of let go and let God. And then Emma was even saying things like, is this too woo-woo? Which I think that's like an exact and very specific phrase that I often say on the podcast.

So maybe Emma's a podcast listener, who knows, right? But it's so many different ways of saying the same thing. We talk about control, what you can control, right? And for a lot of people, this might mean kind of like somebody who goes through AA, if you're not somebody who believes in God or has a faith practice, you might need to borrow some kind of belief or some tenets of that idea of belief to get you through this process.

[1:07:56] Charlie Murphy: And then of course later you can decide on your own, do you believe in this thing religiously? Or what do you believe in spiritually in your broader life? Of course, it's up to you. But for this career, some idea of like giving up your own ability to fully control everything is a really good lesson for you, right? And there's like a longer takeaway, I think I've done before on this idea of like how you get there and are you somebody who believes everything happens for a reason? I do think for me, like that logic isn't exactly right and it becomes almost unhelpful to me. But what I think is really right about that idea, which so many people use of like, you're gonna end up where you end up, everything happens for a reason, is that idea of giving over, over the idea of that you are the person in control, that you're the person who's making everything happen with these schools.

That's just not how it's happening, right? You have some control, you can control your audition, you can control how you show up in the room and then the fates or God or whatever you believe is gonna do the rest, right? And for me, that idea in like a literal predestined fate isn't helpful, but whatever works for you and maybe it's worth exploring, whether it's through meditation or whatever it is, some idea of is there some higher powers or something you can borrow to go through this process just to keep yourself emotionally healthy.

[1:09:08] Charlie Murphy: Okay, and then that leads to the most practical takeaway I wrote down, which was just, I say it leads to, we're just leading on, we're moving on, we're doing pretty well, we're going faster and now I'm slowing us down to talk about the fact that we're going faster, but here we go. I just wrote down this idea of like how Hart, you know, Emma talked about Hart was a school that makes you wait two years before doing a main stage show at least that was true in her day. And for a lot of our students, when they hear this, they go, well, that's a big no, no, I wanna perform immediately freshman year, that's the school is out. I will just say, I don't necessarily think it is a bad idea to have some time to focus on your craft before you have those like big performances that count in that way.

Now, of course, like what level a college main stage show counts or doesn't count or how highly pressurized it is or whatever it is, that's really up to you and it's gonna depend differently on the school. At NYU, it's gonna be one thing when you're gonna have agency casting directors there, when you're in the middle of nowhere, it might feel a little bit different in terms of how much a quote unquote counts, right? And I certainly believe in the idea of applying what you learn in practice, right? And all of these BFAs, to be clear, all of these BFA schools will give you opportunities to perform in some way, whether that's in the classroom, whether that's through scene work or just we're talking about smaller performances, maybe classroom performances, as opposed to like big full campus or performances that are open to the city, those kinds of things.

[1:10:24] Charlie Murphy: At Carnegie Mellon, Carnegie Mellon is one of these schools also where you had to wait two years. You know, Carnegie Mellon, like people from the local Pittsburgh, my dad will go see the Carnegie Mellon shows and the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette comes and reviews them. There's a little bit more pressure to the main stage show, but they won't come to the shows that are in Studio A, right? And that idea of like, of doing a big main stage musical with full costumes and technical support, for some people, that's a huge positive and they feel that's really necessary for their education to do that for all four years. I certainly understand the reasoning behind that. I'm not here to say that that's wrong, but I'm just gonna add that for some people, the opportunity to grow in a less pressurized environment for a bit of time is helpful, whether that's one year or two years.

I don't know any schools where they're gonna say you have to wait more than two years, right? But some say, you know, just not freshman year and some say freshman and sophomore year, you're not gonna perform in the main stage musicals. You know, it's sort of like the NFL, right? Some QBs, they're gonna start game one of their very first year or six games into their first year and some might have to sit a year or two and they watch and they watch an experienced veteran go before they're put into that kind of full speed game. That doesn't mean that they're sitting there doing nothing. They're getting reps in practice, they're working with the practice squad, they're getting rehearsals, right? But they're maybe not yet in front of the big lights with all the pressure and all the gambling, all that kind of stuff that eventually is gonna happen.

For some, we do see that red shirt year is really helpful and necessary and I think that can be true for musical theater performers as well, especially if you're working on a really large thing. You know, if you're changing your throwing mechanics, you don't wanna do that in front of a game and I think some of us have things that we wanna work on that are similar to that idea of like changing your throwing mechanics where you might want a little bit of time and some practice, right? So I just basically caution our students if they're gonna think I'm gonna eliminate all schools based on the idea of not being able to perform freshman year, that there are potential positives and negatives in that respect.

[1:12:09] Charlie Murphy: Okay, and the last bullet point was just about that beautiful idea that Emma talked about of make the decision right. I love that quote, right? I am such a believer in that idea for this process, really in life, right? The same way that like you have to work on your relationship and you have to love the one you're with as much as you just fall in love and it's done, right? You have to work to love the one you're with. You are really investigating a relationship with a school and you will make it right for yourself, whatever that means, or you have to, I should say, right? That doesn't mean that some schools won't be more or less right for you, just like with a relationship, right? There could be situations where the chemistry is really off and it's really bad fit and it would be really hard to make it work, to make that decision right, right?

And then there's another school that you're gonna just be truly in love with and it's gonna feel like it's so easy. That's also great. But that doesn't mean that at that kind of school, you're gonna fall in love and then you're just gonna sit back and let them do all the work and it's just gonna work on you, right? That idea of like, oh, I found my perfect fit and now they do all the rest and now Carnegie Mellon will take care of me. No, you're still gonna have to work to make that school right for you, right? And likely, even at that dream school, there will be some things, some elements of that dream school that you might like better at a different school, right? Even if, again, even if you get into your number one school, the school that you put top of your list, right?

Again, just like relationships, we've all had this experience where it can feel like the grass is greener. Of course I love my partner, but this other partner seems like they're doing this for their partner or whatever, right? So when you're looking at schools, I invite you to look at it like, hey, if I'm here, it's really gonna give me A and B, but I might have to supplement C and D or I might have to be okay with giving up C and D. I won't get at Carnegie Mellon the academics that I might've liked at a Northwestern, right? And another school where you're gonna have completely different gains and losses. I'm gonna lose some of the specific dance training. I'm gonna lose some of the specific artistic stuff that I might want.

This will be better for this and this will be better for this, right? You're gonna be evaluating these schools and it's not gonna be just like, this is good and this is bad. You're gonna see pluses and minuses with these different schools. That's just what this process is. No school is perfect for everyone or even no school is perfect for anyone without that person putting that work in to make it right for themselves. And likely that means supplementing something or giving up something because no school has everything. There's no way to do everything perfectly at any school, right? Like so many things in life, you're gonna get out of it what you put into it. And I think if you're able to look at schools with those clear eyes, it also helps take the pressure away of like, this school is perfect.

This has all the answers. I need to get into this one school. Since again, that's not the case. It's also gonna make you a better auditioner if you're not thinking about it like, this is it. I've gotta get into the school because it's got all the answers, right? At the end of the process, you will very likely have a decision between a number of great schools and great schools that offer different things. And then you're gonna use the information you have at 18 years old, which will be incomplete information. It'll be doing your best to go, this feels like it's the right fit for me. And then it'll be about making that decision right for yourself. So you're gonna make a decision and then you're gonna have to keep working for the next four years to make that decision right.

[1:15:11] Charlie Murphy: All right, well, one decision that you all keep making right is listening to the end of these episodes and enjoying those quick hitter takeaways. We did pretty well with quick hitting the takeaways. I'm not mad at that. These episodes of course are produced by Megan Cordier and Kelly Prendergrast with social media work by Jordan Rice. You can find us at mtsca.com where you're gonna find information on that upcoming Meet MTCA workshop and all things MTCA. Please follow us on Instagram at Mapping the College Edition and like and subscribe wherever you watch or listen to these podcasts. You can even give us a rating and review if you dare. To my young artists out there mapping your journeys, please trust that you are enough for the right school exactly as you are right now. Now keep striving and keep making that school right. Catch you next week.

[1:15:34] ♪ Mapping the college edition ♪