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[0:00] Charlie Murphy: Hello, Summer Break listener! I really hope you enjoy this RE-AIR episode. During our Summer Breaks, we like to go back and re-highlight one of the artists from this past season who we really enjoyed having on the podcast for those who may be newer listeners. I do invite you all to check back through previous seasons for other awesome artist guests. Many of these interviews are truly evergreen, I believe. And for those interested in our College Deep Dive episodes, do please check those out as well. I hope you're all enjoying your summers as you listen to this by the pool, and we'll be back in August with some fresh episodes for Season 4 of Mapping The College Audition. Some cool new programs we've been trying to schedule for a while, some new voices from some of the most competitive programs, and a few different kinds of schools like another non-audition BA program, etc., as well as some really cool new artists always.

If you ever have feedback for the podcast you'd like to give us, and that feedback doesn't fit neatly into a five-star rating and review, don't hesitate to reach out to us at mailbag at mappingthecollegeaudition.com. Even while we're on break, we'll still be reading our email, because we are sickos. Happy Summer!

[1:15] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping The College Audition, a podcast where we explore the landscape of the college theater world and try to demystify this daunting audition process. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, Director of MTCA. That's Musical Theater College Auditions, and today we have got my old friend Ian Harding on the show. It is such a joy to have Ian on, both in that I think we have a really fun and interesting conversation, a long conversation, I'm not going to lie, but also really thrilling for me to get to celebrate my old friend's success in this forum alongside new colleagues and their impressive achievements. And it's not at all surprising, given what I know about him, to hear him have this kind of wise perspective that he has on it all, but it is very gratifying to see and very fun for me.

I think you will all enjoy. I keep saying old friend, he's not old, he's my age, he's my long-time friend, I guess is a better way to say it. As for me, I just got back from our trip to the West Coast, seeing some of our wonderful West Coast students and coaches, always a thrill to connect with our team out there, and some excellent work done in that mock. I know a lot of our students from all over the country are coming in this weekend for our private audition weekend with four schools. I'll see many of you there at the Friday kickoff meeting, and I will be sending you so much love and broken legs in your auditions themselves. Speaking of weekends, did you all enjoy Solvay's Star Turn and Waitress this weekend?

Was I right about her bringing down the house? I believe due to popular demand, if my social media is telling me the true thing, they've even like extended the theatrical run, so if you missed it, you might have like one more chance or something. I don't know all the details there. Lastly, before we get into the episode, I just want to send another reminder, we are planning on airing a mailbag episode over the Christmas break, if I can get my organizational self together, which I will likely record next week. So please do send in your questions on the process, this podcast, my life, holidays, Ian's hair secrets, whatever you want to know about, we'll get into them in our mailbag episode to air over the break.

And then we'll be back in the new year with some really exciting artist and college episodes that we've already recorded, which I will not spoil for you, but some exciting new colleges, some artists, even a conjunction of those two at one point. But a great chance to make sure you've hit that follow button, make sure you've rated and reviewed us for good measure and for good luck, and you'll be all locked in with our upcoming episodes. To that end, let's get to the special one with the indubitable Ian Harding.

[3:37] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to have Ian Harding on the show. Ian has a BFA from Carnegie Mellon. On TV, he's best known for seven seasons on Pretty Little Liars, where he played Ezra Fitz. He was the winner of 17 Choice Awards for that particular show. He was in Chicago Med, Long Slow Exhale, on film and stuff like Ford v. Ferrari, Ghosts of Christmas Always, and The Hater. He's also the author of Odd Birds, a memoir. Let's sell some books today with our podcast audience. And he was, a few years back, named one of people's Sexiest Men Alive and continues to be one of Mapping the College Edition's choices for Sexiest Men Alive. Ian, welcome on the show. How are you doing today?

[4:25] Ian Harding: I'm good. It's so good to see you again. It's been far too long, and I miss our basketball days when you would school me.

[4:30] Charlie Murphy: Oh yes, our early years of Carnegie Mellon, shooting the b-ball outside of the school. Ian, one of the reasons I am so excited to have you on, other than missing you and just thinking you're a wonderful friend and person and a font of wisdom and entertainment, which I'm expecting from you today, is you are an example of someone I know who got a BFA in acting. Technically, we got it in drama, right? But then instantly made a very successful TV and film career, right? It's not like you did a big Broadway show and then went out to LA. Like, you went to LA and made it big, right? So I want to hear all the details of that journey, but I'm especially interested in the delta of what you knew graduating out of school and what you needed to learn hands-on.

So a couple different times in the episode, I'm going to be like, okay, but did you know that in school or how did you learn that? I'm going to keep kind of bringing it back to that if at all possible. It's a theme of the episode today, if we can pull it off. But can I start you off with my first question that has all our guests, which is a take me back in the time machine, Ian Harding, 16, 17, starting to consider colleges or looking at drama programs. What did you at that age, at 17, what do you think you wanted in a school experience? And maybe even if you knew like in a career, like why Carnegie Mellon? Why did that end up on your list? And sort of what were you hoping for from the school experience?

[5:50] Ian Harding: Since we've been chatting back and forth and planning to do this podcast episode together, I've been thinking about that whole experience. What was I looking for? And I think I auditioned for maybe six or seven schools and kind of accidentally auditioned for Carnegie. I think I wanted to be in New York. And for some reason I thought either NYU or I really loved Emerson actually, although I know that's in Boston. And I just wanted something that felt very different from my high school experience, which was that of like, uh, it was an all boys, like Catholic prep school had a wonderful theater program, but like, I didn't take any acting classes. I didn't have any meaningful training. I just, they just like threw us up on a stage and we did, you know, funny thing happened on the way to the forum.

And, um, and so I wanted something that was immersive. I did want a conservatory that also maybe allowed me to have classes on the side within the greater university. And the more that I think I looked at Carnegie, like maybe even after I auditioned, which is probably why I got in. Cause I was just like, it's Pittsburgh. What do they know about drama? Low stakes. Yeah. Low stakes. And I realized that was kind of the perfect thing for me. And then on top of that, I wanted, um, because I had no connections whatsoever in the industry. Um, both my parents are, you know, military. I wanted a program that would maybe be able to like, you know, help get my foot in the door. And it felt like they had reasonable connections.

I knew they had a showcase program that it didn't. Um, and this isn't a knock against other schools, but I, I wanted, I saw that Carnegie had a showcase situation that was on its own as in, it wasn't like a bunch of schools together. Yep. Yes. It wasn't a group showcase. And, and that really inspired me. And so once I got into a couple of these schools, I did the usual, like we went and did a tour. We saw like a day in the life of, you know, such and such student. And I remember going to Carnegie and seeing, I think they were prepping for dance light. And I remember seeing Antoine Hopper, um, and Tro Shaw and Matheny all like prepping and just the work ethic as well as the play, as well as just, they all kind of had that it factor.

Yeah. I suddenly realized like, Oh, I feel unworthy of being here. Like these people feel really top notch. And so I knew if I went there, I would be, uh, like by no means a big fish in a small pond. And it's exciting to see like, Oh my God, I see people more talented from me. I'm going to have something to go to. I'm going to have a place to leap toward, as opposed to just being like, great, I'm going to get all the leads. And this is an easy program. I'm already going to be the best or whatever here.

[9:02] Charlie Murphy: I understand. I remember, I do remember even, you know, one of the first scenes that I ever saw you do with, with Larry Hillier.

[9:05] Ian Harding: Oh, please tell me.

[9:09] Ian Harding: Yeah. Truly. I'm just thinking about that. I, you know, I remember we both did scenes, but I'm pretty sure we'd rather forget, but, um, but, uh, but I remember you did, um, God, was it angels in America? And it was clear. Um, you know, there was all of the kids and especially, you know, folks from our class, I was very impressed by. And, and I went from a theater school where it felt like, you know, some people took it seriously, but other people were kind of just doing it because it was an extracurricular at times. And, and it felt like kids playing at, you know, adult characters or something like that. Whereas that I remember specifically that sort of time period at Kearney, as well as seeing you and Lara do this, I was like, oh no, these are real actors doing real work. And that's again, was sort of solidified for me that I was in the right place.

[10:03] Charlie Murphy: I accept your compliment. And, uh, I think you're right. That was some of the best work that you've ever seen. Um, no, I wouldn't, but so you mentioned New York. So, but at 17, 18, as far as you're starting college, were you thinking of yourself like you were going to likely make a career in the theater? You know, did you know you wanted to do TV and film already as you were looking at schools or was that something that came a little bit later or even after school?

[10:22] Ian Harding: Yeah, it came a little bit later. I think I thought that, um, the people that I had interacted with from the DC theater scene, um, where I grew up and sort of where I've returned to since, you know, a lot of them talked with reverence about New York and about that's where you went and like cut your teeth. And, um, and I think I, I didn't feel prepared for film and television, even though it's something that I wanted to do. And so I didn't want to go, like I didn't audition for any West coast schools. Um, and cause I didn't want to go out there and kind of, you know, get into something and, uh, you know, um, and also I didn't want to be so far from my family. So I thought even if you were going to do both that you were going to cut your teeth in New York, that you would go, I can act in TV and film. I wanted all the commercials, but I imagine moving to New York and being that gritty, whatever New York actor at 17.

[11:19] Charlie Murphy: A hundred percent. Yeah. And then tell me about a little bit about the school experience, other than basking in the glow of my talent, which I know is most of our classmates primary school experience. Did you take any of those other scholastic classes? Did you take any university offerings? Did you, I'll say I certainly didn't. I was like, enjoyed like a dodgeball class. I did not do a lot of like academics, but did you take any of those, uh, offerings that the university has, or was it more like I'm focused here in the acting school once I was there?

[11:46] Ian Harding: Um, it was, it depends on which year we're talking about because yes, when I got there, you know, again, like going deciding on Carnegie, I had all the, like intellectually I said, Oh, I would like to take these other classes or something. And then once I got there and, and I was sort of seduced by the feeling of the place and being surrounded is really cool and funky people. And I immediately threw academics out the window, um, you know, along with a few other reasons and life, um, issues. I, you know, my freshman year was a pretty tough one academically because I, I ended up, I failed, uh, two of the academic classes, which was a kick in the shorts that I needed. And then later on, you know, turn that around and found real meaning in that work.

And then my junior and senior year, I took, yes, I took other classes. Like I took poetry from like the poet laureate of Pittsburgh, who I think became like at one point the U S but I forget, but it was the poet laureate of Pittsburgh. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, and this is terrible. Can't remember his name. We can't remember right now. We'll, we'll Google this and add it back into the episode. Cause this was 20 years ago. Um, so, so, you know, but, but I did end up taking those and I think it was meaningful for my work. If no other reason just to like not focus on, oh my God, how am I going to make this checkoff scene work over here? It's like, no, I actually have to write this haiku for this class.

You know, that word seduction is a good word. I mean, not, not that it's necessarily romantic or sexual, but the experience of like that building. I mean, I think it's true for a lot of drama schools. It is there. It's so is the revolution of your college life that like, it can pull you in and sing you that siren song of like, how much time can you be spending there? What more should be doing? Why didn't I do a playground piece this year? Why don't I do that? Like it can sort of get, you get so caught up in that little world as if that is the entire world. And then, yeah, it's only looking back then I'm like, why didn't I take more academic classes? Why didn't I experience more of Carnegie Mellon as a whole? But when you're in there, it feels like it is the whole world. At least.

[13:55] Charlie Murphy: Well, tell me a little bit about that showcase decision. So you, you pictured yourself at 17, 18. I don't want to get trapped in a seven years of a show. And then that seems almost immediately what happened that where you graduated, you did move to LA right away, right? So what was that experience now you're, you're showcasing, you know, for those who don't know, Carnegie has a showcase in New York and LA. Our year, we even did a Chicago showcase too. But basically if you're, you're getting seen by agents and managers in both places, I imagine you had interest from both.

[14:51] Ian Harding: And then, um, I felt a weird kind of, um, like I felt at home on a set, even though I had never been on one. And even though I felt very nervous and completely lacking in talent, I think I was, I still felt there was an understanding, like something clicked. And so as time went on, um, I, you know, I, I, it was looking more like LA was the place for me to go to initially. And then, um, from showcase, I had, I got a manager in New York because we did New York first. And then he said, you know, when you go to LA, you'll meet these people. And still with this manager, by the way. Um, and, uh, I met some folks there, really connected with them. And it just kind of became clear, okay, if I'm going to give this a shot, I might start here.

And then there was the, um, compounding, uh, pressure of my mom saying, oh, by the way, so this is what you're going to be looking at in terms of college debt. Oh, yes. And I went like, this is what an off-Broadway show pays. And this is what a TV show pays. Yes. Yeah. Yes. No, that totally makes sense. But, well, there's something so interesting, you know, and we'll maybe hit this in the second half as we talk about that delta of what did you know? What didn't you know? When you say came naturally to you, I will say that is certainly the experience of like all of your classmates talking about you. Um, when we go, oh my God, you hear about Ian? Oh my God, that thing's in its third season. Oh my God.

Like everybody is like, well, of course that was going to happen to him. Like it was just like, it wasn't like, oh, whoa, what a shock. He's so lucky. He's so whatever. We were like, oh, he's that's so right for you that you would walk into a pilot and you'd walk into a TV show and just be the amazing, charming self that you are. So like there was something that like nobody in school was surprised that that was the path that like, you know, we couldn't have said this specific show or this phenomenon was going to happen, but to be like, oh yeah, he's going to be so successful on TV and film. Everybody I'm sure by my senior year was telling you this is something you have a skill set for.

[17:06] Ian Harding: Yeah. That was, you know, um, but I was also getting a lot of cautious advice, which was, and I, I did, I did get during our showcase visit to New York, there was a, there was a casting director there for theater, but he said, you know, Ian, I'm just, I need to warn you, you have the potential or just like the way that you look, you could go out to LA and get on some show and sit on it for seven years and then never work again. And he said, just so be careful. And I remember thinking like, man, I wouldn't, I'd be so lucky to work for seven years straight. That'd be great. Uh, and then lo and behold, that's what happened. And so once, once it was clear that I was doing this TV show, once it was clear that it was going to go for a while, I started to try at least to lay the groundwork to be able to either pivot away for that or, or create a life.

Um, that cause I knew there would be, because I knew I was so lucky. That's always interesting. Whenever you talk about luck, people are like, no, no, no, it's not like you. It was like, no, no, no. There's so much luck involved. There's persistence, hard work. Absolutely. Um, but I knew that there was going to be the leaner years after this.

[18:26] Ian Harding: And that's been true and also amazing. That is a very specific problem of I booked the hit show for seven years. And then what do I do next? I do think for a lot of young actors graduating and some of our listeners, maybe junior seniors in college are considering this exact question. There's like that version of it. And there's also the version of it. Like I'm really good. I'm getting a lot of heat, but I'm basically sitting around for five or six years in final callbacks, booking a pilot that doesn't go, you know, but not really working a lot because you feel like, well, I got to keep you around for pilot season. Now, of course, now pilot season is a little bit of a different phenomenon than it was when we graduated.

But, but that was, I think the fear too, it wasn't just, oh, you might book a really successful show and then struggle afterward. But like with all the buzz and heat of what you were getting, you know, right out of showcase, there was no guarantee that that was going to turn into anything that could have turned into sitting around for four or five years doing a lot of big auditions, but not actually booking the big thing. And then you're like, well, what have I done now? I'm 27 and I don't have a resume really. And where do I go in the world? I mean, I know for a lot of people, that's a big decision between New York and LA is like, would I be more likely to work even though it's not paying me money versus LA is the sort of lottery ticket to go. You could hit the thing that then buys you the house that you, you know, it pays off your student debt and all that kind of stuff.

[19:34] Ian Harding: Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, that is a tough one. And I don't know where exactly I fall on that because yeah, I think we've, we know people who that, the, that was their path where they were able to like get in for the Coen brothers or something, you know, yeah, they could get these huge auditions, but they weren't, um, booking it and then their agents dropped them. They, so what did they build? You know, how do you spend that capital when we know that's incredibly valuable opportunities they were having to talk about luck. It's like the preparation, you know, meets the opportunity, but like those opportunities, if they don't cash out, don't necessarily, you can't spend those five years later.

Like, but I was really the it person for auditions for three years. Yeah. Great. How do I use that? You know, that's, that's a, that's a tough one. And I, I think you, I would always urge, um, people to go where you will have the better life. And I mean, we can get into this in a little bit, but, but it's obviously with, with the way that auditions happen now, you don't necessarily need to be in New York or LA. And, and it could be one of these sort of situations where, um, you know, okay, everybody's telling you go to LA, but in New York, you know, that you have more of an opportunity to work consistently in stage there. And, and especially for New York, everybody goes to those plays, you know, even the like back alley thing, you think nobody's going to see.

[21:11] Ian Harding: Um, and you know, Will Brill, another one of our classmates who you should absolutely get on the show. Oh, we're going to Ian, he's coming, he's coming on the show. People don't work. I'll force him. Um, he is an example of somebody who went to New York and just done a bunch of plays, some of which like nobody's ever really seen, but like one night, Sam Rockwell's in the audience, you know, and, and I think it's about building it slowly, you know? Um, and I think he's a real example of somebody who has built a strong foundation.

[21:44] Ian Harding: Including now TV and film too. I mean, it's not just plays. Yeah, for sure. Exactly. But before we talk too much of the counterfactuals of what you could have done and how other people could do differently, let's tell, talk a little bit about for those who don't know the sort of audition experience and booking of Pretty Little Liars. Like, cause this is pretty soon after school, right? Like this is, I think it was, you started in 2010. So that, you know, I know we graduated the year before. So what was that experience from sort of showcase to, you know, the auditions that led up to imagine it was a series of auditions to actually booking this role and then sort of what the, how that changed your life pretty quickly.

[22:17] Ian Harding: Yeah. So, so the basic thing was, um, I was out there pretty quickly. Like, you know, I feel like we graduated on like May 14th. I had driven across the country and was in LA by May 18th, you know, or whatever. Um, not stopping to sleep. You're just going, you know, I think we did it in like three or four days. Um, and then did the whole thing of like with, because by that point I went and I had agents and I had a manager and I did a bunch of, you know, um, casting meetings and like just went and met people, welcome to town, blah, blah, pilot season hadn't started. It was October of 2009. And, um, there were certain cable networks that start sort of their casting process then as opposed to the bigger networks.

And so my agents manager at the time said, okay, look, you know, this is, this isn't even like the, the full glut of auditions that you're going to get. This is something to cut your teeth on. Just go and, and throw caution to the wind. And it was, I think with that mindset, I went in and I just got this audition for pretty little liars and I could see on the page maybe that like it felt, it felt like everybody, you know, that maybe there was one way that you could play him that felt a little like lecherous or sort of like playing the sexiness. And I don't know how to do that. And so I, I just kind of went in and spoke to this person like a human and that seemed to click and I got a call back.

I'm like, okay, great. Um, I went back in, met more of the producers and the writers as opposed to the initial meeting, which was just the casting director and her associate. Then they liked what was happening there. And I was starting to get the feeling of like, oh, okay, this feels good. But I was still almost fascinated by the process where I was kind of like, oh, okay, oh, this isn't this great. Like I'm experiencing this now. I didn't think at all that this would be a thing, you know, that it would become what it became.

[24:13] Ian Harding: And so then we moved into chemistry reads because Lucy Hale had already been offered the part. And so I went in and read with her. And as she would say it, I was the most like un-Hollywood simpleton that she, that they had encountered, you know, they were like, there were truly like ex and current models that have come, that went in. And I came in with like a Christmas sweater and I was like, I'm here for the audition. It proceeded from there to studio test and network test. And then after that they said, okay, great. You got it. You're going to go to Canada. We're going to shoot the pilot. Um, and then you're going to wait for like three months. And so I started to get, you know, when we were talking a moment ago about, you know, getting the big auditions and you're like waiting for that thing, waiting for that thing, booked it.

We shot it and then we wrapped right before Christmas. And then I didn't hear anything for I think like two months or something. And other people were starting to get auditions. Pilot season was heating up and I'm sort of getting anxious. Like, Oh my God, I'm on hold for this thing. Is it going to go? Uh, and then it did. And then you shoot the first 10 episodes. They started airing while we were, I think we had just either finished like the last few episodes when it started airing the summer and then it became what it became. And then we went in and shot the back 10.

[25:36] Charlie Murphy: Uh-huh. And now, you know, you've got a show and then it's, and now you have a show.

[25:40] Ian Harding: Yeah. Well, it seems like a theme of your career here that everything's happening by accident. You stumble into Carnegie Mellon's room, you go to practice your thing and whoops, I booked a pilot. But I imagine, yeah, when you booked that, I mean, you know, I don't know if you'd heard a free form before, but it wasn't on my radar of, you know, you probably didn't feel like I just booked the next 90210. Like you felt like I booked a small thing. Like you couldn't have thought at the time, Oh, this was going to become what it became.

[26:02] Ian Harding: Right? No. And, and I, I think I, the valuable lesson there was I wasn't thinking of it as something that would change my life. I was thinking of it as a new experience.

[26:13] Ian Harding: And as a learning opportunity for the casting process or all those things. And I remember saying at the time to my mom, like, God, I'm just so lucky that I get to learn the full process of how this goes, you know, before I get something big and then, you know, it became a big, well, let's get into how, how big that was. I mean, that show had as a, you know, a ravenous following, I mean, especially among that certain age group, which, you know, this whole time I'm teaching students of that age group. So, you know, so many of whom would say in an initial consult, Oh my God, I'm a huge pretty little liars fan. Like that would be unprompted. And then if I'd be like, Oh yeah, one of my classmates is in that, they would be like, you're joking.

You're lying. I can't be true. Like, it wouldn't be like when I'm like, you know, off and I'll be like, Oh yeah, my wife's a Broadway star or whatever. It's a different kind of fandom for TV in film, maybe, especially with something that's already gotten some IP to it or whatever.

[27:06] Ian Harding: I don't know what it was about that show that had like ravenous followers, but they were fan fans. So like, yeah. How did that change your life? I get, yeah. What was the effect of like, Oh my God, overnight you're, I'm sure you're being recognized places. I'm sure you're being hounded and asked for things and you know, all that and stuff as you're still 23, 24 at this point, you're a kid.

[27:24] Ian Harding: Yeah. It was, it was, um, it was a lot. Uh, I, I think I remember, I distinctly remember the moment where I realized like, Oh, this is something meaningful. Um, I was at the, um, farmer's market in Los Angeles, right next to the Grove. And cause I used to, when I first got to LA, I was living in an apartment near there. And, um, and there, I went to go get dinner one night and, um, and I was walking along and all of a sudden there was a screen. And, and I remember thinking, you know, Oh God, it's, this sounds, I mean, this is where we live in now, but I was like, I think I hit the deck. Like I thought it's like somebody's getting shot or like something. And, um, and then I am pulled up from the ground by dozens of hands of teenagers and, um, and phones are put in my face and, and, and that, and that was, that was really like kind of the most aggressive thing that I would experience, you know? Um, but yeah, I, I was also lucky because I was not on the posters all the time. And like, I was not, you know, I was like,

[28:43] Ian Harding: Lower down on the call sheet, I was able to have, and I'm so grateful for this, I was able to have like one foot in, one foot out of the Fame Game, like where I would find myself in a room with like people that you would recognize from everywhere, and then I would walk out of that room, or I'd walk out of like that restaurant, and you'd see Patron say, look up, and oh no, it's fine, it's not nothing, you know, and so I'm so grateful for that, you know, I didn't go from like zero to a hundred in five seconds, I went from zero to like 58 in five seconds, you know.

[29:19] Charlie Murphy: Well, but it also feels like you went to zero to a hundred for a certain age group, like for fans of the show, I mean, you were really, I mean, a heartthrob, everyone's in love, 17 Choice Awards in a row, my gosh, you couldn't lose, but of course that maybe not every 45-year-old is recognizing you on the street in the same way that you would a different kind of movie star.

[29:38] Ian Harding: So it was, it did change my life in so many wonderful ways, you know, where I was able to, there was security there, I was able to get auditions, I was suddenly like in the room for things that were substantial, and it gave me a lot of opportunities, it also, you know, the other side of that coin is it did tie me up for nine months out of the year.

[29:59] Charlie Murphy: Well, I was just going to say that, so you talked about the trap the New York casting director warned you about, but so how does all that excitement, you know, sort of affect your next steps career-wise? Because imagine by season two, season three, you're already starting to think, okay, how do I parlay this momentum into something that's going to help me toward the next thing? But of course, now you're locked in, I mean, you know, in terms of the contract, you're doing this for seven seasons, right? They keep dropping, bring trucks in your backyard and you're going, thank you, yes, right? But I'm sure that in some ways that's paralyzing to going, I am, I signed a contract now and I'm, this is what I'm doing. So how are you thinking sort of strategically of going, how do I take this into the next step for me?

[30:36] Ian Harding: It varied a lot, you know, um, because it truly, I think when, especially for the seasons, there were, I think there were three seasons where we shot 25 episodes a year. And so that took 10 months out of every year. And then I was off in the winter and, and I think I did have the moments of panic feeling like, oh my goodness, I'm not going to be able to do anything else. My skills are atrophying and, and, um, what am I going to do? And, and then I was lucky enough to interact with some older actors who said, you know, the old cliche, but it's so, so true that this is a marathon and not a sprint. And I interacted with, um, uh, actually, uh, Shailene Woodley, who was, who was on the secret life of American teenager and on some ABC family or then ABC family, you know, obviously now free form, like upfront or something like that.

Um, she and I had a conversation and, and I think she had just done the descendants with Clooney and that's what kind of got her out of it, but it was very meaningful in that. Like she, she said like, look, it's, I think, I think this might alter the direction. It may not. Um, I just need to stick around for the thing that does. And meanwhile, I'm going to have an amazing life. And that was so, um, that was so meaningful, uh, because it felt like she had a rich existence as opposed to, you know, as much as she's not plotting and pre-planning, this is exactly how I'm going to escape from this prison. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna let this happen as a, you know, obviously a fortunate prison, but you know, it's not going like I'm trapped in this and here's how I have to get out. She was going to go, I'm going to keep showing up and seeing what comes.

[32:21] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Cause that's the, that, that mentality is how this wonderful profession and calling that we all love and making, you know, entertaining people gets robbed of its joy, which is if you start thinking strategically or you start thinking like if, okay, and now I'm going to do this and now I'm going to get, and I did for a while. And those were probably some of my lowest, most miserable times where like, I would, I remember the absurdity of this moment where I was sitting in a house that I had bought with money I had earned as an actor, um, looking at swaying palm trees and this like a beautiful day that I had. And I was about to go to set and Warner brothers where, you know, and I was having a panic attack and, and you have to like, you said, where does that come from?

It comes from uncertainty. It comes from not knowing where the next thing is and not knowing, okay, does this mean I'm never going to be this kind of actor that I aspire to? And, and I think what I've learned over the years, and especially after having that sort of coming down from that peak is actually where you find the most joy because it's, it's, um, I was able to focus more on like, what was the kind of life that I wanted? And I was able to, you know, save my money. I was able to, um, build friendships and relationships. And, and then I got to act on top of it and almost kind of not need it, you know? And there were certain things that I tell my agents like, look, I would really love to go for this stuff.

You know, I'd really love to pursue very complex characters. Let's go for the antagonist. Let's go for, and I do get those shots and I've done a couple of pilots with it were exactly that. And, and I think when I felt the, the, the most joy and where I think my work was the best was when I let go of the possibility of this thing changing my life or doing something like that. Because, you know, you would hear other actors on set and they're like, God, if this goes, guys, this is our next five years. And I was like, I've, I've been here, man. Mm-hmm. You think that offers something and happiness and safety and whatnot. And from a bank account perspective, yes, it will, but people still find a way to screw that up. Find a way to be unhappy.

[34:49] Charlie Murphy: I know. Yeah. Well, in some ways you're talking about the difference between like having vision and, you know, purpose for what you want your career to be, but, but not necessarily having control over it, right? This is a career that you cannot control the exact direction you can say, Hey, I'm going to keep vision boarding this and I'm keep working toward this. And this is the thing that I'm, I'm hoping will happen, but you can't hold it tightly because you, we don't have any control in this business of what parts are going to go out, what, whether you're going to book it. I mean, there's all these things you go, I have so little control over that. Or if I book it, will it go? I mean, there's so much of this, you go as an actor, I control very little of this actually.

[35:23] Ian Harding: Oh yeah. Yeah. And even, even if you were to get into the reins of like producing and now like, Oh, I'm going to produce this as like a vehicle for myself. Well then, you know, you have to go through the whole rigmarole of like, well, who's going to like, okay, is this a TV show? It was a movie. If we're doing a TV show, where's it going to air? Is it going to be streaming? Is it not? I'm like, who's going to buy it? Like where, what's the demographic? What's the, and it's, it is, it's a miracle. Anything gets made, you know? And then there's a strike and you're like, well, or a pandemic. And you're like, I didn't control those things. I couldn't have, I couldn't have made that happen or not happen. Or, you know, I can't, can't make there not be a strike. I can't make there not be a pandemic and both things, which are long periods of time where work is down and you know, there's nothing you can do about it.

[36:02] Ian Harding: Yeah. And I know it sounds terrible, but I was so grateful. I, yes, of course, I would prefer that the pandemic didn't happen and that all of those people were still alive. But, um, from, from a personal perspective where like, you know, you kind of stare into the abyss, that whole era, like I didn't work for 15 months straight and I was somebody who had worked pretty consistently. And now suddenly, you know, it's, I put so much of my sense of self and identity and self-worth into being an actor and here you are, and you're not acting. And, uh, it was so great because it was so painful and, you know, got to work through that. And thankfully I have a, um, a Saint of a spouse and, um, and now I was able to see through that, like what I wanted my life to look like. Um, and then here's what acting and that part, here's where that will fit in over here.

[37:00] Charlie Murphy: For those of you who are just listening to the podcast, Ian is giving you hands to show the portion of life that is career. There's a hand brackets. You've picture his hands are making brackets. It'll make it all. And it's not a big portion. I was doing a square and this is a little bit of Hollywood squares of your life.

[37:18] Charlie Murphy: What does your team look like at this point? Let's say season four of pretty little liars or whatever, you know, you're at the place where you're going, man, this is a big hit. I've won a couple of team choice awards. I'm good. This is, I'm in an exciting moment in my life. You know, I imagine you have an agent and a manager, but who else have you brought into your world? Do you have a press person? Do you have stuff like a social media manager at this point? We'll talk maybe a little more about social media later. Do you have a personal stylist? Like how big is that team growing for you as you're going? I now I'm in this sort of this real world where I'm competing, you know, against big, you know, quote unquote, let's say celebrities where you're in, you're in the kind of celebrity world.

Even if you say you're a 50 out of a hundred instead of, you know, on the celebrity scale, what does that mean in terms of team and how do you know to form what goes beyond, you know, I think most actors know I might have an agent, a manager, but how do you know what comes next and what you bring on?

[38:03] Ian Harding: Yeah. I, um, I, my team is big ish now, but the great thing is, is that, you know, um, we, it kind of comes and goes. I don't need to like constantly monitor all the, like, for instance, I have a, um, probably season two of pretty little liars. I got a publicist and I'm still with her. Her name is Gina Hoffman and she is amazing and, um, delightful. And we have like a wonderful bit of communication or, um, uh, vocabulary with one another, where when I have something to publicize, we come on and I'm on for that month. And so I would pay her for that month. And then we, it's a big shebang and bop, bop, bop. And usually like it's before, um, a show premieres or before like an opening of a movie, like a month or two before. And that's when you do like, she gets you the, the, the press appearances, the photo shoots, et cetera, et cetera.

[38:51] Charlie Murphy: That's how you got on this podcast. Was that, yeah, you'd have paid a lot of that.

[38:55] Ian Harding: And she wrangled you. She was like, look fine. If you need, all right, fine. I'll do him a favor.

[38:59] Ian Harding: I know. So, so, and then I have, I've had the same agents and managers since I graduated. And what's lovely is we've all sort of grown up together and, um, my agents were my managers in New York, but is by coastal. Um, and, and then I have one agent in New York that sort of looks out for more theater oriented things and things that are more New York specific. And then in LA, I have a feature as well as a TV agent. And, um, and so they do different things. And what I like about having a team of that size is they're able to, you know, in, in the deal making process, they're able to say like, they're able to do good cop, bad cop, or, you know, one of them has a good relationship with this cast director or this producer.

Then a little while down the line, I'd say probably like three or four years ago, cause it was pre pandemic. I got lawyer and entertainment lawyer. And the reason I did that was because contracts were getting a little bit more complex and there was more to be, um, haggled over. And this was specifically because I was going to do a travel show that, um, looked like it had legs until, and I was like, man, year 2020 is going to be the year of travel. And, um, and I was wrong. I was very, very wrong. Um, but I brought him on because he is able to like, you know, get into the nitty gritty details of a non-traditional TV contract, right. Compensation. That's not standard when it's a 20 episodes or whatever the thing is, how would I compensate if this happens or if this happens or, you know, all those things.

[40:37] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. And, and honestly, you know, I don't know where I would stand in terms of, for especially the, the folks who are more up and coming, you know, what can tend to happen sometimes is let's say you get a little bit heat around you and suddenly you get a giant team and you're paying all of them a lot. Um, but my, my advice with that would be, um, you, if, if you have a large team to sort of as, as a flex, I guess, then that's probably a waste of money. But if they're creating meaningful opportunities for you, then, then do it. You know, I was, um, as I was thinking about bringing a entertainment lawyer on, I was talking with another actor friend. He was like, don't do it, man. You know, it's, it's like five more, it's 5% more off your paycheck.

And what do they even do? And, and I have, I've discovered with Todd, my lawyer that he does, he is able to finesse things. He knows people he's, he's just, he brings that extra, he brings in an extra 10 to 15% for the 5% that he takes.

[41:40] Charlie Murphy: Well, and yeah, you know, we were talking about actors being the CEO of their own company. As any company grows, you delegate more things that you go, this, the CEO does less as there are more people underneath you and more business that's happening. And so you need to be able to delegate and departmentalize all the different things that, that do happen.

[41:56] Ian Harding: A hundred percent. And, um, and then I also have a, a branding agent, um, Jean Qualic, uh, who specializes more, especially once they're like, you know, there's a little bit more notoriety. Um, and especially during the era of, of, you know, paid social media posts, um, which is another way to, you know, honestly make money if, if, if you're trying to not take the first pilot that comes your way after you get off the show, but you can do, you know, a Gatorade ad, although I'm serious, I'm not doing a Gatorade ad because I'm not fit enough.

[42:30] Ian Harding: Um, yeah, right. I say, yeah, right to that. No, but I have questions about that coming up on the second half of the show. I want to talk a little bit more about social media and how we do this. That's a perfect segue. Let's take a little break and on the backend, we'll talk about that, but we'll also talk about a little bit of granular film and TV technique as well.

[42:46] Charlie Murphy: So back in a flash. Okay. We are back with Ian Harding and we're going to chat a little bit about our theme that we, uh, emphasize at the beginning, that deep question we posed. Um, and I want to talk about acting on the camera and maybe split this a little into subcategories because I know you've done, we've

[43:04] Charlie Murphy: Talked mostly about the Pretty Little Liars, we haven't talked too much about some of the film stuff you've done, but let's maybe start off... maybe just where we started with the audition of it all. You talked about how you sort of backed into it accidentally. Was there anything that you felt like you wish you'd known coming from school in terms of just how to audition, not just for Pretty Little Liars but how to audition on camera? Was there stuff that you go, oh, I figured this out five years in, this is stuff that I wish I'd known more from school?

[43:30] Ian Harding: Hmm, you know, I'll start with giving positive credit to Carnegie. I felt like we were taught for any audition, you come in fully off book, you are that person, you walk into the room as that person. I'm not like full Daniel Day-Lewis in character thing, but so that was kind of flabbergasting when I would go to auditions in LA and I would see people clearly reading the script for the first time, like as they're about to walk in. And that I think is, not to judge as lazy or anything like that, but I think you're not setting yourself up for success in that sense.

[44:13] Charlie Murphy: So in terms of...

[44:14] Ian Harding: You came in prepared, you had yourself off book, you made some choices, you knew what you were doing.

[44:19] Ian Harding: 100%. So in that sense, Carnegie absolutely prepared me. Auditioning for the camera, I mean, I think if I could go and magically fix or change the curriculum that we had, because it might be different now, I haven't looked at their most recent curriculum at any time recently. But I would do more camera work because I don't think it's just, oh yeah, you just kind of tone it down from theater, which felt like what we got of some specific technique stuff. But basically it's the same thing.

[44:54] Charlie Murphy: Right.

[44:55] Ian Harding: Right. And it is very much not. And making sure, like little things on how to find the camera, be conscious of the camera as well as being conscious of the light that is around not only you, but your co-star. I think it was like probably middle of season one. And somebody on Pretty Little Liars said, hey, you're in her key or something like that. And he used a phrase that I'd never heard before and actually really haven't heard since. But I said, sorry, what's that? He's like, you keep getting in her light. How do I, what do you mean? And he goes, look behind you. I went, yeah. And then he says, and now look at her face and do this and then do that. And if you see a shadow go over her face, don't be there.

And so you learn little things in the moment of how to gauge and craft a performance, especially in like small settings or multiple cameras, because sometimes it's tricky where if for the sake of time, especially in TV, if you're doing like the wide and like a chest up shot at the same time, how do you gauge that? Because sometimes you're talking normally on the wide. And then if like if they are right in your face, you're not doing the same like that will look absurd, you know?

[46:23] Ian Harding: And so if I could go back and change it, I would do far more camera work than we did.

[46:30] Charlie Murphy: It's so interesting, even that what you just said, like the theatrical equivalent of that, you would have known you wouldn't you would have known not to upstage your co-star. You would have known, oh, wait, if I take these steps down now, I'm forcing you to look upstage. But if I take these steps up, I'm forcing you to look upset if I step down, then I'm going to bring you into focus and be much easier for you on stage. Boy, that's not something that we were talked about from a TV and film perspective. I never heard of the idea of, you know, making sure my co-star was lit. But what about, you know, I know it's we'll get as granular as we can get here. But what about from like an acting perspective?

You know, when you think about something like Pretty Little Liars, which you had seven seasons of, you may have had some idea, maybe you can tell us what you knew of the plot versus what you didn't know. You know, it's not like you have to read the entire script the way you would with a play. But like, how much of the kind of acting stuff of like objectives and beats and tactics, how much of the stuff that we're learning in school, do you find yourself like, do you ever find yourself two seasons in and be like, oh my God, I'm not doing any of that? Or were you using that? Like, how did you how did the stuff that you would have worked on in a play when they say, oh, it's the same, whether it's Shakespeare, whether it's a sitcom, you know, how much of that did you find to actually be true for you?

[47:38] Ian Harding: I actually kept a lot of it up. I mean, by the, you know, second season, you have an understanding, or at least you have the character's perspective. And so there were certain I felt like I had there were certain like lanes that I had that if let's say the writers brought something, and it felt a little too outside his lane, I could voice that opinion, or I could figure out how to like tweak it and say like, oh, in blowing up here, because that doesn't feel accurate. I think he could be really passive aggressive and mean, because he's not, he's not violent. He's not rageful to her. But he is hurting because she messed with him, you know, or something like that. So I was able to craft that perspective, as well as the simple, like beats and objectives. A lot of that I did, you know, it wasn't the extensive text work for every scene that I did.

[48:34] Charlie Murphy: Right.

[48:36] Ian Harding: Especially if it's like a two-liner exposition scene, which at some points, that was my character's job in the episode was I would stand there and look hot, just say like, wait a minute, but doesn't that mean that so and so is going to show up at so and so time? And like, humans don't necessarily talk like that. But you understand, like, okay, great to make the plot forward for the next episode to make sense. I need to say this now.

[48:59] Charlie Murphy: Yep.

[49:00] Ian Harding: And there were a couple things that I think I learned that you can, especially in TV, it feels at times like theater is more about doing and film is more about being, which was dangerous to say, I think, at Carnegie, because it was like, no, no, it's all about tactics, because if you're just feeling something, you're dead in the water. And that's true. But I think there's a way to mold both of them, which is more like, I learned more about the breath and how to breathe while being on a set. Because I had to contain it, I had to, I had to let things hit me and just let it read in the eyes, you know.

[49:48] Ian Harding: And so, you know, this is probably not helpful, but I think you just learn a lot about film and how to act in it by doing it over and over again and seeing yourself do it over and over again.

[50:06] Charlie Murphy: Seeing yourself, meaning like watching film of yourself back?

[50:09] Ian Harding: Yeah.

[50:10] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[50:11] Ian Harding: Which can be tricky, because sometimes, you know, you watch a take and you're like, God, that's awful. Why did, I can't believe I did that. And you realize, no, that wasn't your best take, but they had to use it because, you know, there wasn't a boom in the shot, you know. And so, you don't have control over that.

[50:27] Ian Harding: So I think, and there is also, for some reason, I don't know if this is true, stop me if you remember this, but whenever we talk about style, or there's...

[50:39] Charlie Murphy: My next question, go for it.

[50:40] Ian Harding: Yeah, hit.

[50:41] Charlie Murphy: Oh, okay. There was clearly, it may not be about style per se, but there's something different between, you know, the Coen brothers, let's say No Country for Old Men, and How I Met Your Mother. You approach the understanding of the character, why this person does what he, she, they does. And you get that. But then you realize there is a rhythm, like there's a rhythm to, you know, it's like line line joke in the sitcom. And then, I mean, if it's the Coen brothers film, it's okay to, if they're rolling, and the scene consists of three lines, you don't need to worry about, like, getting that timing, right? You don't need to like, oh, you know, I'm gonna let the energy drop, or something like that. You can let it be there. You can let that camera run. And then on the right moment, you say, you know, I smuggle drugs in this country. I don't know. I'm just like that. Whatever the... I'm thinking No Country for Old Men. Hopefully that's a line.

[51:53] Ian Harding: You're not just saying that, confessing a truth of yours.

[51:54] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I'm just like, yeah.

[51:55] Ian Harding: That's how I lost it.

[51:56] Charlie Murphy: That's so funny. That is exactly the next question I had. It was about style or tone. Because I do think just the way you're talking about being versus doing is kind of a dangerous acting word. We go, well, just being and feeling? Uh-oh. You know, from acting school, we wouldn't want to say that's what you want to do. But I think tone or mood can be kind of dangerous to sort of play. And yet, I do feel like in TV and film, there is an understanding that you have to know the West Wing is different than How I Met Your Mother. There's just a different tone to... it's different than the Coen brothers. Like to understand what am I in. And even just as you understood, like, oh, this is how this is being used.

This is the cliffhanger. So it needs to be delivered in a way that's usable for that, even though that might not be the most realistic way I would say it if I was in real life. There has to be some usable understanding of that, right? How do you square those circles, I guess, is really the question of like, I still want to play this character believably, but Ian is aware this is how this is being used or Ian is aware of the style or the tone of it.

[52:50] Ian Harding: Yeah. I think it's basically the silent operator that's there. The same one that is there during, you know... Because obviously, you are creating real circumstances in a fake environment. You do that on a stage where, you know, you're in a forest and you're fighting for your child's life. And you're not. And you're also conscious of, here's my light. And the emergency bell started ringing, you know, I was in a theater and I'll stop. You're aware of all those things.

[53:17] Charlie Murphy: Right.

[53:18] Ian Harding: And it's the same thing for film. So you learn how to make that, I guess, as autopilot as possible. And sometimes that's just a matter of like, you're going to run the take a couple of times and we're going to figure out that, you know, even though I'm sobbing, I still have to get to this mark and I still have to lean out the window while I do it, you know.

[53:45] Charlie Murphy: And eventually you sort of lose awareness of it.

[53:51] Ian Harding: You're saying autopilot the operator. You autopilot the part of you that's trying to hit your mark. And so that you're able to focus on the action or whatever is happening in the scene.

[53:59] Charlie Murphy: Right. The same way that you get to a place when you drive, you know, that I'm not conscious of. Now I put on the turn signal because I'm leaving my lane. You know, there's.

[54:07] Ian Harding: If you're driving with my wife, you would be.

[54:08] Charlie Murphy: But yes, that's a different. You'd be very conscious of the timing of all of those things.

[54:14] Ian Harding: What about.

[54:15] Charlie Murphy: Someone who lives in New York and really should not have a car.

[54:17] Ian Harding: But I digress.

[54:18] Charlie Murphy: Ain't that the truth.

[54:19] Ian Harding: And yet I do.

[54:20] Charlie Murphy: And yet I do. Let's talk about film sets. So you mentioned sort of style difference. You know, when you do, you know, something like Ford v Ferrari, which is like this big blockbuster movie. How does how is that experience of, you know, you said you're not high on the call sheet of Pretty Little Liars, but by a season, whatever, you're, you know, one of the stars of the show. Like what is the difference between that experience of sort of, you know, a regular set where you're known and you're, you know, whatever, an entity versus coming on to a big blockbuster film set? And there's Matt Damon and Christian Bale and all these things. How does that feel different in terms of the way that you work?

[55:00] Ian Harding: Yeah. Oh, it's night and day. And it's, again, the sort of the intangible thing that only happens once you're on the set and you can kind of get a feel for things. And Pretty Little Liars, I think, again, when you're higher up on the call sheet and TV in general, it is this far more of a writer's medium, you know, and so film is very much the director's medium. And especially on that set where it was like James Mangold was it like he called the shots and as a result, that movie was amazing and was what it was. And it was even the difference of like looking at, you know, with Pretty Little Liars, you know, Video Village would be, you know, the director, the writer, the lead writer for that episode, a couple of other writers, some of the producers, and then like a few other people that you're kind of like, who are you again?

And with Ford versus Ferrari, it was one seat. No, I guess two because there's a loan in the village. And so he called all the shots and because he had his own reputation and just a skill that he knew what he wanted, he knew how this would land. He knew he could see it all in his mind. You just trusted him. And so at one point and I watched him do this, not even with just me, but like with one point Matt Damon and Christian Bale, like they did the scene one time and he came back and he said, no, no, no, sorry, I need you to land this way, regardless of how it feels like just so because we're spinning the camera around and the cars are coming around at the same time. So you need to do it that way.

And they're like, okay, got it. And they do it again. And he like stops mid scene and walks up and puts moves Christian Bale in one direction and moves Matt Damon. And I watched it. I was kind of like, what? Like this is you can do that. But again, they had a repartee. They were, you know, peers and whatnot. And so, you know, I did notice, especially the film, though, and maybe it was just on that project where there was more of a budget and there was a little bit more time. Basically, we could do take, take, take, take, play. You could play different versions of it. You were playing with different lines or you, for the most part, like just different line readings, different.

[57:07] Ian Harding: Yeah. Different versions of it, different intentions, different pauses in the line. But especially, I mean, for me, because I was that was just a learning experience for me. I forget sometimes that I was even in that movie because, again, some of my scenes were cut out and that's okay. But, you know, I've just.

[57:26] Ian Harding: Watch Christian Bale and Matt Damon and John Bernthal and Tracy Letts work. And that was the eye-opening because they would do the first couple takes more or less on book and then they would kind of go off and they would mess with the lines. They would, you know, try to make just an off-the-wall choice and then dial it back. And so that was more about giving the editor and giving Mangold as many options as he needed in the edit. And then, whereas with TV, it feels like, especially if it's like you're producing a lot of episodes, you're doing, you know, 10 to 15 or more pages a day, it does feel... You're trying to get to that one good take more. You're trying to be like, what's the one good take we're going to use as opposed to, here's six options.

I hope you craft something great with this. Yes. Yeah. And especially with TV, I would find myself, especially when I felt more comfortable, like I probably wasn't going to get fired. I felt that, okay, maybe the first take I'm going to do what's on the page. Not like I'm not going to make up a paragraph or something, but then the second take, maybe do a choice that's a little bit more off the wall. And then let whatever the director or usually the producers come in and say, it's a marriage of the two. And so, and by that point, I did what I thought they might want, which is always kind of dangerous and you really shouldn't do that. But, you know, and then I got to do one gutsy one that I want. And then on the third take, that's what we're going to, that's what they might use. By the way, we need to move on anyways.

[59:16] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. Let's not even do the second take. We're just moving on. You got it. Wait, I didn't get to do my gutsy one. No. Oh yeah. No, that does happen. They're like, wow. Okay. Yeah. We got it. And you go, Oh no, hang on. That was the fake one. That wasn't, that wasn't the one I wanted. And they're literally already moving the set around you. Can we talk about the social media of it all? So we tease this in the first half, but, um, you know, I've interviewed a few of our former students, some of whom were TikTok stars and all those things. And I've interviewed a lot of like big Broadway people. I mean, Jesse Mueller, Anneli Ashford, whatever, some of these Tony award winners. And most of them have like a hundred thousand followers, which is like a ton of people.

But you, my friend probably know this have 7.1 million followers. So just that 0.1 represents what the other truly successful stars have total. And now, again, you're talking about orders of magnitude for a Christian Bale or a Matt Damon, but, you know, obviously a huge part of that success comes from being on this truly hit show, but it's obviously also something that you are consciously trying to navigate. And when you talk about a brand manager, I mean, it's something you can turn into money potentially. So I just love to hear like, what were you thinking as that's happening? And you're going, Oh my gosh. And I don't know the timing of when it was growing, growing to holy man, we're in the millions now.

What are you talking about in terms of like what that means? Because again, we talk about the capital that can be spent of the buzz of a pilot season, you know, sort of the capital of social media followers is it's odd currency. Right. So how are you thinking of how I'm going to turn that into career stuff and or potentially money?

[1:00:45] Ian Harding: Yeah. I, first and foremost, really don't like it. And but, but I understand it's part of the business and I understand it's just something that one needs to needs to do. It is a tool in your toolkit. And, you know, I think there is just no, especially let's say Instagram, because that's the one that I'm on the most. I don't, I'm not on Twitter anymore since it became, you know, the cesspool that it is. I basically, I know that Instagram is what you want people to think your life is like. It's also an advertising platform. So especially when something is gearing up and I want people to see it, I am far more active, but I don't, I'm not big on putting my life out there, but I know that you can also cultivate what you want people to think your life is like.

So especially if you're like, I remember the height of Pretty Little Liars, I was able to travel a lot more and there was more of like putting that out there, but also doing it very sort of like a little bit vanilla in that, like, I don't want to, I don't want to offend, I don't want to. So I think there are ways of cultivating it that I got a bit more of an education with probably two years ago now. There was, at one point my manager said, okay, you know what, maybe let's explore the social media thing. You clearly have a following, you're wanting to do these other things, and it would really help if you had, you know, a high engagement on social media. And I said, you know what, let's do it.

I have not wanted to do it for so long because I think I'm still under the illusion, although I think it might be right, which is that if you're an actor, people should kind of not know who you are as a person so they can believe you in these various roles. Maybe that's naive or dated, but it's kind of what I like to believe. And so I went and got a social media manager, somebody who basically became like a co-creative for On My Page. And he was amazing. His name's Ben Teller. And we went through and like, we were able to comb through, like, what was a meme moment of the day? What was sort of happening? And how do I get involved in that? How do I try and like hit the zeitgeist, hit the virality moment?

And I thought that was, after a while, it didn't feel, it felt like I was spending more time with that than I was on thinking about what I, the kind of projects that I want to create, like film or theater wise, and the types of characters that I would want to play. And I'd also turned every single moment of my life into something that could be monetized. Opportunity. Yeah. And it started to kind of make me feel a little sick. And then it started getting into the language of like, all right, so now we do this and then we move into a YouTube channel. And now you're talking about hiring a whole team. And I think over the past year, like what I finally realized was like, I want to be an actor. If you want me to do press for something.

And if you want me to like, do a bunch of Instagram stories, take a bunch of photos while I'm on set that we then roll out as part of our, our ad campaign and the ad push, like, sure, let's do that. But I cannot be an influencer at the same time. And I do think, and maybe I am elderly. But I do think the social media in people's minds, especially the younger generation, they, I hope that they don't believe that that is more important than cultivating real skill, you know? Because there's a reason why, yes, there are a hundred percent, there are TikTokers in movies and TV. Sure. But how many of them then create a lasting career in film and television? How many of them then are able to parlay that into movie stardom?

I don't know if there are any. Whereas how many people who have next to zero followers work their ass off and are just known by casting directors and then get a thing that then hits the zeitgeist in a meaningful way. And now they get to choose. And, and I think there's also the money component. Don't get me wrong. I've sold, you know, the airline tickets and beer and all kinds of things. Um, that's great. Cause it, it, you know, it does pay the bills and actually has allowed me to say, you know what? I don't want to take that pilot. I don't need that money right now. Um, but, um, but I think what has, what has gotten me through has not been my social media. It has been my, I hesitate to say this, but my ability to act.

It has been my desire to constantly, uh, reform what I'm doing and reform, refine what I'm doing. And, you know, I still take classes. I still coach with every, every audition. I still, you know, that I think has a higher probability of getting you where you want to go than, um, starting like a meme page.

[1:06:40] Charlie Murphy: Totally. Well, you know, it's, we talk about it. I'm sure this was a conversation you had with social media manager and branding people. It's like, what are you selling? And it feels like the line, you know, what is Joel McHale? You know, at this, like that is an actor. Fantastic actor. He's great in the community, but he's also like kind of a talk show host and kind of a standup comedian and kind of a, like, and so in some ways there are, there are people who are selling themselves as personalities. Yes. And who are, can cross that boundary really, really well into I'm on Twitter and I'm on whatever. And then there are people I think who do think of themselves as I am an actor playing make-believe characters first.

And the social media is only an avenue for that. And it's kind of everything in between. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer, but, um, at some point, if more of your focus is on your YouTube channel and your tech doc and your Instagram, then yeah, of course you can't also be running a whole separate business. That's you being an actor. I mean, this is, you know, the CEO can only be doing so many things. Right. And you know, um, um, I, I think there's also, it's, we talk about it. I'm sure this was a conversation you had with social media manager and branding people. It's like, what are you selling? And it feels like the line, you know, what is Joel McHale? You know, at this, like that is an actor.

Fantastic actor. He's great in the community, but he's also like kind of a talk show host and kind of a standup comedian and kind of a, like, and so in some ways there are, there are people who are selling themselves as personalities. Yes. And who are, can cross that boundary really, really well into I'm on Twitter and I'm on whatever. And then there are people I think who do think of themselves as I am an actor playing make-believe characters first. And the social media is only an avenue for that. And it's kind of everything in between. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer, but, um, at some point, if more of your focus is on your YouTube channel and your tech doc and your Instagram, then yeah, of course you can't also be running a whole separate business.

That's you being an actor. I mean, this is, you know, the CEO can only be doing so many things. Right. And you know, um, um, I, I think there's also, it's, it's a slippery slope, which I really don't like that, that phrase, everything you can to sound old in this podcast at the end. Okay. You're my age. Let's be clear. Slippery slope, investing, stocks and index and bonds. And no, but gold, all gold, gold in my day, there were no telephones.

[1:09:57] Ian Harding: Um, I, I think you start to, if you start to go down that road road and, and maybe, and maybe obviously if you change and grow and realize actually, you know what the jobbing actor, the person who's like constantly pursuing the next character is not what I want to do. Well, then fantastic. And, and one of my former co-stars has realized like that, you know, she really loves acting, but she really loves the business side of things and she's really good at it. And so she moved into that space. Yep. Um, but yet Ben, there's also people that say, you know, what I, the idea of doing like a summer at Williamstown theater festival fills me with a level of like lust and joy that I only get when, you know, I'm like touching the face of God or something, you know, then, then yeah. How much lust do you get while touching the face of God?

[1:10:43] Charlie Murphy: I don't know if you can see this in one second, I'm going to step away cause my dogs are harassing me and I'm going to have to shove them upstairs and then hope they don't start crying. Um, but you know, we're having this really meaningful conversation and you see my arm just jerking, just trying to like stop them. Um, but, but yeah, so I, I, I, at the same time, I think if, if, and I should leave the social media conversation with this, if you can find a way to be authentic with it, like there's a lot of, um, uh, who is it? This guy who's on, uh, Euphoria, Jacob Elordi. I actually don't know how to pronounce the list. I'm obsessed. I'm now I'm showing my age. I'm like, one of the hottest actors right now.

I'm like, one of the children. Um, it seems like his page showcases a lot of the other work that he does. He's a photographer and he does all that. It is not like a page dedicated to, um, him acting like an asshole at some, you know, at con or something like that. Um, that then if you can do that and create, um, and that feels like it's a creative endeavor for you, then amazing. But if you are creating it because you feel like you should, because you're going to miss out or because you're like, Oh, I'll become an influencer and then I'll make a lot of money. Then I suggest you stop. Um, because I don't, I think that will probably eat into your, um, creative and emotional energy. And it's just not a good, not a good path to go down that, that another reason I don't like either.

[1:11:17] Ian Harding: Um, I guess that works, um, social media or, or, or the not, not, not I don't like, but I think, or just having like the, the obsession with the phone only because I think it takes away, I think it takes away from your ability to be present. And especially if you were not present on film, the camera reads it, you know? So if you're caring more and more, uh, about, if you start to look at your life as something that can be, um, monetized or Instagram, or like, this is a great moment or like, Oh, could we do this? Or, you know, it, it kind of takes you out of your life and it takes you out of feeling the moment that you're having with another human being. And I think you can start to read that.

Like, you, you know, you see the acting of some of these people that, and you can tell they're just not present or they're thinking of the next line and there isn't anything compelling there. So there's my, cause you're saying basically, it's not just that, Oh, the time and energy investment you're making and adding to your social media will potentially pull from your artistic strength. But you're saying that literally the act of spending that much time on your phone is going to make you a worse actor that you feel like the commodification of yourself. Now you're being a marketer and not being an artist and you're losing something. All of the actors that I love and respect and, and also seemingly have very long and meaningful careers, they are all present.

[1:11:48] Ian Harding: Some people are either not on social media or are terrible at it, or they clearly have someone help them, or they come in and they post, and they're out. So someone's such and such is coming up today and thanks for everybody, or they cultivate meaningful relationships with their fans in other ways, like they do comic cons and they're there and they talk to them face to face as opposed to tweeting at them.

[1:12:15] Charlie Murphy: Well, there's some relationship with production and consumption too, which I think some people who've been successful, like you say, they can get in, they get out where they're not themselves then consuming or engaging in a deep meaningful way for themselves, you know, as artists.

[1:12:28] Ian Harding: Yeah, um, yeah. But we got to play a game again. A lot of play a game here. All right, this is all of our artists have to play a unique game each episode. Sometimes they're more kind of competitive trivia-based games, and sometimes they're very silly. This is definitely one of the latter. This is one of the silliest games I come up with. I hope you'll forgive me. Okay, so we're gonna play an F, Mary, Kill style game. You know what I'm referring to?

[1:12:53] Charlie Murphy: Yes.

[1:12:54] Ian Harding: Yeah, okay. But we're gonna do it with Pretty Little Liars. So you're gonna tell me, I'm gonna give you a group of three people, and you're gonna tell me who is pretty, who is little, and who is a liar. That makes sense? That's how you're gonna break this down. And we're gonna do it with all of our former college classmates.

[1:13:06] Charlie Murphy: Oh god, no, that's not true. I would not do that. I would not do that to our former classmates. But we're gonna do a couple different rounds of the game. You're allowed to pass if there's any that you go, "This is too unpalatable for me in the business." You may use passes when—

[1:13:19] Ian Harding: Yeah, yeah.

[1:13:20] Charlie Murphy: All right, are you ready to play?

[1:13:22] Ian Harding: Sure.

[1:13:24] Charlie Murphy: Here we go. This is the Ford v Ferrari edition. An easy one to start us off. Okay, Christian Bale, Matt Damon, and Tracy Letts. Who is pretty, who is little, and who is a liar?

[1:13:32] Ian Harding: Oh my god. To be interpreted artistically however you... This will haunt me so much. No, um, uh, uh. Oh, you know why? Here's what we're gonna go with. Christian Bale is pretty in the sense that when you see him in person, he is a striking man, even when he's, you know, whether or not he's playing Dick Cheney or, you know, that man, Batman. And little, I would say, I'm only saying Matt Damon is little not because I think we're the same height, but because of how little pretense he has.

[1:14:18] Charlie Murphy: Excellently done. This is how Ian manages to get hired later.

[1:14:24] Ian Harding: No, um, uh, and then who's a liar is Tracy Letts because he is just a dream but is such a rascal and can think of things that are, you know, he is a liar in the sense that when people talk about Tracy Letts, you know, August: Osage County, and like he's just, it's all this writer extraordinary, you know, an American treasure, and it's true, but it's also a lie in that like on that movie there was a whole thing that was cut out where we're trying to get him into this new Ford supercar and he sits down and I'm like, "Are you all right, sir?" And he's like, "My nuts, my nuts!" Ian, ergo, not yet, but he's like, "You've crushed my nuts." You know, and I think James Mangold, we can't use that. This is a whole bit about Tracy Letts' testicles. We're not gonna get mangled.

[1:15:19] Charlie Murphy: Exactly, yeah. That was so good. Okay, we have multiple rounds of this game. Ian, are you ready for your Adventureland edition?

[1:15:24] Ian Harding: Oh god.

[1:15:25] Charlie Murphy: And we'll see how you sneak out of calling anyone anything negative, which is very smart of you. Good job. Jesse Eisenberg, Ryan Reynolds, Kristen Stewart. Who is pretty, who is little, who is a liar?

[1:15:35] Ian Harding: I'll say, why don't we start with little? Kristen Stewart is truly like a small person, tiny person. Great, yeah. And, uh, but obviously a formidable presence, style of course. Um, I think pretty is, I mean, it's got to be Ryan Reynolds, right? Just very handsome, just on a, he's all shoulders and no waist, you know? I'm sure at some point he's ranked above you on the section of people alive, I'm sure.

[1:16:06] Charlie Murphy: Oh my god, you know, fact checkers haven't checked, but I'm sure he's been there.

[1:16:11] Ian Harding: Oh, 100%. And liar, um, is I would say Eisenberg just because he is also just the kind of has a mind that you're kind of like, "Why? Why are you an actor?" I think you're lying to yourself. I think you should be a neurosurgeon.

[1:16:26] Charlie Murphy: Uh-huh. I like you're using liar as like a trickster imp genius. You're almost using liar as a compliment now to be like, "You're a genius." It's very smart. You're doing really well.

[1:16:35] Ian Harding: I mean, I'm also, I bet he lied to me and like when he said, "You're doing good in this," you're like, "That's not true at all."

[1:16:39] Charlie Murphy: That's not true, yeah. All right, what about Loving Other Drugs? We talked about them. What brought you back to Pittsburgh? Anne Hathaway, Jake Gyllenhaal, and fellow Carnegie Mellon alum Josh Gad. Anne Hathaway, Jake Gyllenhaal, Josh Gad. Who's pretty, who's little, who's a liar?

[1:17:03] Ian Harding: Um, uh, I mean, I think a liar was for Josh Gad. And then I, I never met him on that. I completely forgot I'm doing this movie. Josh, is he in that movie? I have no, I mean, this is according to me Googling it. I've seen that. Google wouldn't lie. I mean, I did see it 10 years ago, but I don't know. I don't know that's true. I feel like the liar telling people that I'm in it because again, all of my scenes were cut.

[1:17:28] Charlie Murphy: Um, you may, you may cut yourself back in. You may call yourself the liar and escape Josh Gad.

[1:17:33] Ian Harding: Yeah, I still get residuals. That's great. Um, but, uh, and then a pretty is clearly Anne Hathaway, although obviously Jake Gyllenhaal is an Adonis among men.

[1:17:40] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, he's little. You're leaving him as little.

[1:17:43] Ian Harding: I'm leaving him as little. Little room for ego because he could have a huge one because he's so awesome.

[1:17:49] Charlie Murphy: Little room for ego. Well, that's pretty good. See, this is, this is a professional here. This is what you should all be learning from students is how I should be navigating this.

[1:18:00] Ian Harding: All right, let's do Carnegie Mellon professors edition. All right, let's get watched. So Barbara McKenzie-Woods, Catherine Moore, and Don Wadsworth. Who is pretty, who is little, and who's a liar?

[1:18:09] Ian Harding: Oh man, um, uh, uh, you know, I want to call, I want to call Don Wadsworth pretty just because he would be in a rage. It was like, I just think you're a beard, that russet beard, that voice. I'm like, he's just got the, there's something like feline about him. So we're gonna call him pretty.

[1:18:30] Charlie Murphy: Pretty.

[1:18:31] Ian Harding: Um, who is a liar? Uh, uh, I would say Barbara McKenzie-Woods only because she, you know, there were times that she would be working with me and she was like, "Ian, you've got it, you've got it." And I'm like, "I don't got it. I really don't have it. I'm not doing it." Or I would get like two words out and she'd interrupt again. And she and I had a bit of a disagreement once in that like I was doing kind of Cat on a Hot Tin Roof and I'm trying to like get in the scene and I'm not, and I'm just like this weird manic ball of energy because I'm trying to avoid her comments, but I'm also trying to be present, you know? And she was like, "Yeah, and one more thing." I was like, "Barbara, can I just do the scene first and then you can interrupt me?" And she was like, "Okay." And I did the scene and it was terrible. And then she's like, "You could have taken the note first. It would have helped."

[1:19:25] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, it would have hurt a lot.

[1:19:28] Ian Harding: And then, uh, then Catherine is little.

[1:19:30] Charlie Murphy: That's how you're going to turn little into a compliment for Catherine. Her name is literally Moore and you're trying to make her little. It's unbelievable.

[1:19:38] Ian Harding: I'll just leave it as like she's little. She's a great person and she's not, she's not a large human. There we go. That's true.

[1:19:43] Charlie Murphy: All right, you survived the game. And I was going to make you do it with your Pretty Little Liars castmates, but yeah, you've done enough. Positive turns into compliments, so I'll also save you on that. Let's do, let's tell a little bit of books just in terms of you wrote a memoir. Where the heck do you get off writing a memoir? Very Barack Obama of you in streams of my father. You're 30 years old writing a memoir. But all seriousness, what was the impetus behind writing? It's called Odd Birds for people who want to buy it on Amazon, um, or at your local bookstore, probably even better, I guess we should be saying. But what was the impetus behind it? Tell me about that. That's what a cool adventure.

[1:20:05] Ian Harding: Yeah, I will. Thank you for bringing it up. It was an adventure. I think I wanted to try something different and I think it was also, it was towards the tail end of Pretty Little Liars and I wanted to try and, I don't know, encapsulate that time or somehow put like a bookend, I mean pun intended, on that time. And I always kind of wanted to write that and it wasn't meant like as a memoir of like, "Ah, and I figured out all this stuff," but mainly as sort of a series of observations and trying to connect this hobby that I'd really fallen into that it brought me a lot of like, you know, speaking of being present, like there's very few hobbies you can have of like bird watching where you're just, unless you take out your phone and you're trying to get them to come to you by playing weird calls and whatnot, but like you just have to stand there and look at the birds and just see what comes into your field of vision, just be there.

And so I think I was trying to nail that on the head. I don't know if I did. And then I think when I talk to people, like, so you said it's Odd Birds. Are you the bird here? I'm like, "No, the birds are the birds, man." I mean, I'm the bird if you want me to be the bird metaphorically. I'll be the bird, but there are birds too also in the book.

[1:21:33] Charlie Murphy: Well, we also should talk a little bit about you are a passionate and very vocal advocate for the Lupus Foundation of America, inspired by your mother. Would you tell us a little bit about that? And then if someone wanted to get involved, if they loved hearing you today and they go, "I want to give some money," where would I do that? How would I do that?

[1:21:45] Ian Harding: Certainly lupus.org, the Lupus Foundation of America. It's been around for a long time. It does really, really wonderful work. And I've been sort of an advocate spokesperson of theirs for over 10 years now. And yes, my mom has had lupus for the past 32 years. And you know, it's an autoimmune disease. It's very, it's just sort of a very cruel and insidious disease. And it was one of those things where I felt, I felt a lot of privilege and it was like a very insane thing, you know, to, I realize I'm gonna put my foot in my mouth here when we were speaking a moment ago about social media and like, you know, what good does it do? It's only bad. Let me round my response a little bit more by saying, um, during the Pretty Little Liars era, I realized that I could use whatever platform I had for some good, which was I did a bunch of like t-shirts with like my face on it.

There was a reference that was within the show, um, and we sold them through, um, this one company that like specialized in doing like, you know, t-shirt campaigns for charity. And so we were able to raise a lot of money that went to the Lupus Foundation of America. So I guess Instagram isn't all bad, but it's mostly bad.

[1:23:09] Charlie Murphy: Uh-huh.

[1:23:10] Ian Harding: But so that foundation is really wonderful because they in some cases like directly fund research into, um, both how to fight the disease, what the disease is, how it's changing, um, and medication, especially because medication is key because there's no cure right now. So it's about creating quality of life. Um, and, uh, but yeah, was that I realized that was a rambling answer.

[1:23:35] Charlie Murphy: That was a great answer. I'll say even before you were an Instagram influencer talking about disease, you were the first person I'd ever heard say the word lupus. And so I learned it from you in school and you were already an advocate or a, you know, spoke about it. And yeah, it's certainly something that we can only increase awareness of. Um, we're living now in a post-strike world. Here we are. Congratulations. Do we know anything coming up for you that we want to plug? Anything else that we should be hitting in terms of where we're going to see you on our screens?

[1:24:02] Ian Harding: I have, there was a project that's supposed to come out this year. It has been kicked down to next year, um, but it also hasn't really been announced yet.

[1:24:13] Charlie Murphy: And then I have the news right on this podcast then. Great, let's do it. Let's do it.

[1:24:17] Ian Harding: Um, yeah, I was gonna say, would you like to get sued as well?

[1:24:22] Charlie Murphy: Um, uh, I should, you have a great entertainment lawyer, no problem. I'm ready to go.

[1:24:29] Ian Harding: I mean, I do. His name is Dot, although I got him for other reasons. Um, but yeah, so there's another project that, that I, you know, it's always kind of, I mean, I knock on wood. I, until it's been shot and I know that I'm in it, I always kind of hesitate to plug because I remember telling people like, "Wow, you know, I, uh, I'm in this movie with, uh, Jake Gyllenhaal and Anne Hathaway. I have scenes with him." I am not in that movie.

[1:24:46] Charlie Murphy: No, no, you're like, I get paid for that movie, but I gave that movie and I think the camera pans at one point and you see me go like, and then it cuts to something, somebody else.

[1:25:06] Ian Harding: So, so I, there are these two things that should be coming out at the end of next year barring, you know, the strike goes away and, and, um, and you know, so, so proud of our, you know, actor compatriots for, uh, getting out there and holding the line. Um, so excited, hopeful seems to negotiate a good deal. Knock on wood.

[1:25:22] Charlie Murphy: Um, what about, can we just wrap with a little bit of advice? Oh, anyone who's listening to this podcast knows I should run as far away from any more Ian Harding advice, but just in case they've made it through this hour and they really want to, um, like I want to be in when I grew up. I want this kind of graphic. I'm, I'm interested in theater in this way, but I really am interested in TV film and I want a little bit. How would, what advice would you give to that young person who's sort of navigating this all?

[1:25:51] Ian Harding: I feel like this could probably be the longest part of the podcast, but I will make it brief just because, you know, especially, you know, looking back on and thinking even in this conversation about my time at Carnegie, let's say, um, because I can give you all the clichés like we were saying or...

[1:26:09] Ian Harding: It's a marathon and not a sprint. Don't ever think you need to make it by a certain time. Don't ever feel ashamed about working a day job while you're auditioning and doing that job for years. I remember my first year at Carnegie, I was expecting my whole life to be changed, and that I was going to be happy and joyful, and it was just going to be one giant orgy of creativity or something like that. I remember really being shocked when it was not that. And I remember being even more shocked when I was very lonely at college. Even though I was like a very social guy, I mean, you remember me during that time. I felt like I was everywhere. And I think I would urge especially a lot of young actors going to conservatories and thinking like, okay, wow, or I got into Carnegie Mellon, I got into Juilliard, I got into these other places, and here we go.

It's like either smooth sailing or now I will be happy, especially in some places where kids are coming from environments where the drama club is still viewed with disdain and was their only escape or something like that. And then finding that maybe it's not or finding that you're lonely or anything like that, which is what I was my freshman year. I encourage you to know that it will get better. It will pass. Go find other things to do. Cultivate a meaningful life. And then the acting will come along the way. And so I would say that.

[1:28:07] Charlie Murphy: That's such good advice. And it's so funny. It's so timely, I think, for, you know, a lot of our students, you know, many of whom listen to the show who have just wrapped, they got into school. Now it's November as we will probably releasing this in early December of their freshman year where they've just started college. And a lot of them are going through that exact experience, maybe for even more so than what we did. Because you talked about it for six or seven schools. A lot of, you know, when we went through this, a lot of people weren't doing 20, 25 schools, the way some of our students do now. Ian's eyes just jumped, right? God, they go through this incredible experience. It's such a so hard on the getting in part. They spend all their time winnowing down their five options. And OK, this is my choice is what I'm going to do. And they sort of think, well, then it's over. This process is over once freshman year hits. And then I'm happy.

[1:29:00] Ian Harding: Exactly. You said. And I think, you know, I often am having these conversations with our freshman being like, yep, this is normal. And you're making friends and all the sort of normal stuff that is college life, I think, because the conservatory part of it so overwhelms their senior year. It's so about which school I'm going to go to and then I'll be happy and then the next thing will come. It's just it's so good advice. And I think really helpful to hear from a successful person who managed to work their way through it, you know, because especially with their they go through the Instagram of it all for them or the Tick-Tock, maybe more for them. They see all their friends. They go, oh, you're having a great time. Why am I the only one who feels like they're not? Why is it just me?

[1:29:29] Ian Harding: Yeah. And I would say, you know, I would leave you with also two more things, which is, you know, especially when it comes to the work, go in and take as many risks as you can. Ideally, even though it doesn't feel like it at times, you are there to take on roles that you might not ever play or will, you know, that are supposed to be a stretch for you, you know, and and and like revel in the risk, revel in in falling down and ideally picking yourself back up because you might not be picked back up by your classmates or your teachers. And oh, by the way, take everything that you learn from your teachers with a grain of salt because the industry is constantly changing. And, you know, and ultimately the thing that will probably get you the furthest and this is, you know, I hesitate to say this, but it does sort of consistently hold true is is your own authentic voice, your own intuition. And and it ultimately is you that that will get the furthest, you know. And oh, by the way, don't do drugs because fentanyl isn't everything. So, you know, that's also great advice.

[1:30:37] Charlie Murphy: No, but it's so true. I mean, when I said, oh, everyone would have said, oh, Ian's a natural. Of course he was going to do this. That was Ian at 18. That wasn't Ian after four years of school. That was Ian on orientation day that we would have gone, oh, that person was ready for for the career that you've had, you know, and and hopefully school gave you some tools and some additional things to add on to that. But but yeah, when you talk about it's the what will make you successful is the artist that got you into school. That's almost always true. It's not that school is going to give you some secret tool that you'd never had it. You know, it may shape and help craft you a little bit, but it's not going to give you the artist that, you know, you walked in the room with.

That's that's what you're going to bring to it. It's it's it's, you know, well, thank you for that compliment. But, you know, yes, I did learn so much from Carnegie and I'm so grateful for it. But I do think it's telling that my monologue that I used to get into the school was the same monologue that I used to showcase.

[1:31:35] Ian Harding: Mm hmm. And that benefited me greatly. So I think that's. Yeah, I don't know. Hopefully I didn't bore the crap out of you, Charlie.

[1:31:39] Charlie Murphy: We'll edit all the boring parts out. Don't you even worry about that. We're going to wrap there at Ian M. Harding on Instagram. You can be seven point one oh one follower if you want to add on or just follow out mapping the college edition. That's a much better choice to make. We'll be have more of a direct impact, certainly on our follower counts. And thank you for this. It was such a joy to get a chat with you.

[1:32:02] Ian Harding: Yes. Thank you for having me, Charlie. It's great to see you. And maybe we should go get a brownie sometime.

[1:32:12] Charlie Murphy: Oh, man, that was a juicy episode. I hope you all listen to it while enjoying a delicious holiday brownie yourself. So much we could do long, deep takeaways on today. But given the size of this episode already, I'm going to try to do all quick hit stocking stuffers. I say that and I may still have some larger ones in there, but we're going to do our best. OK, you ready? Here we go. First off, I love that part of the conversation about control versus allowing. I know you've heard it on the pod before. It's annoying to hear, but maybe hearing it from a gorgeous man who got to hear it from Shailene Woodley will help a little bit. It's exactly what we talk about in the college process. Right. You can't force something to happen, but you have to let it go where it's going to go.

And that very act of trying to force it can actually prevent it from happening. It doesn't mean you don't have the vision. It doesn't mean you don't drive the car in the direction you want it to go. You have to do that. But you just can't white knuckle the wheel in your auditions, in your life or, I guess, in your driving.

[1:33:06] Charlie Murphy: I also really love the story of Ian's travel show being an example of where you don't have control. That's not so much about the strategy of it all, but it's just one of those many examples we see from the pandemic to the strike, whatever it is that you could have done everything right artistically and booked and you still don't have control. I also really loved Ian's quote about cultivating skill over selling on social media. I know it may not be easy to hear a social media influencer who's literally paid to sell beer on social media warn you about the evils of it. But I think you've heard a number of different versions of that conversation from different kind of artists in different places with the social media in a number of nuanced ways.

And I think this was another example of that. Ian is not saying don't participate. Right. And he's not saying don't recognize the business opportunity. But he is saying make sure it doesn't replace the other thing you're selling if the goal is to be an actor. That's all with that big if. Right. Nobody's saying don't be an influencer if that's what you're trying to do. It's just about finding that balance if you're someone who aspires to an artistic career.

[1:34:04] Charlie Murphy: Also, did we note the absolute masterclass Ian gave during that game? I mean, you could literally study that in a class of publicity for actors. He was funny. He was charming, but absolutely nothing negative about anyone. And I gave him pretty little and a liar. Only one of those is a positive adjective, I think, in general. And maybe he actually does genuinely love all those people. I've no idea. But what a combo. Can you avoid being boring, but also avoid negativity? Because negativity is almost always interesting. It's just kind of easy to be like, oh, I said something shocking. I said something negative. I thought that was a masterclass. He may have failed his freshman year college requirements, but he aced that game.

I also, you know, I'm going to love, love, love that he brought back the idea of your authentic artistic self being the thing that will make you ultimately the most successful. I know you're sick of hearing it from MTCA as the key to success in this college process. And maybe even as a listener of the podcast, you're a bit sick of hearing it from all the different college faculty members about what they're looking for in the process. But hearing it from an artist who's achieved the level of real world financial and artistic success that Ian has hopefully will help drive it home a little bit. And, you know, it's really true in Ian's case. He sounds the same in this podcast as he did freshman year of school. The same charm, same humility, same intelligence, same goofy sense of humor. Not at all surprised that you get to meet a version of this person on your TV screens.

[1:35:20] Charlie Murphy: And last but not least, I'm going to do, I think, a little bit of a longer stocking stuffer. It's still a stocking stuffer, not a full present. And just talking about the luck of rolling the die in Hollywood versus New York City, Broadway conversation, theater conversation, I guess. For those who are in college and thinking about that decision, I know we've had multiple versions of this exact talk. I'm just going to say, I think it is an impossible calculation to make. And of course, a very individual one. And I'm just sort of throwing out some of that empathy as we talk about the math of it. One of the reasons I keep bringing it up is that the industry, agents, managers, et cetera, anyone who's trying to make money off of you will always push you toward rolling the die, toward the riskier choice, because for them, it is a higher expected value play.

All right. For those who are like math gamer people out there, you're going to enjoy this. If not, you can skip forward about a minute, right? But when I talk about expected value, it's this idea of like, if I rolled a die in infinite times, what's the average number that comes out? So let's use some numbers. If you're maximizing your career in business, you should always try to make as close to the highest expected value play that you can. But in the business world, you get to head your investments. You get to sprinkle some here, sprinkle some here, right? And somebody else will get to share in the gains and losses that will come. In the artistic world, when we're talking about your career, we just don't get enough rolls of the die to always have the math work out in our favor.

So let's imagine like a decade-long career. You can make a bet of what my 22 to 32-year-old decade is going to look like, right? And let's say that I just, to make up some numbers, I have a 20% chance of yielding a million dollar return. So 20% chance of yielding a million dollar return, a huge TV show, whatever that's going to be, that's worth $200,000 of expected value. But there's an 80% chance that I'm going to roll the die and get nothing or next to nothing. Just for the sake of this, we'll say zero to give us that $200,000 expected value, right? But then let's imagine I have a different career move. Let's imagine it's New York, where I have a 70% chance of yielding on $100,000 return and therefore a 70% expected value.

And let's say the other 30% again is near zero, even though nothing in the world is actually near zero. A lot of artists will choose that second option and I'm going to say understandably so, even though it's the worst expected value play, right? Even though one, I'm expecting $70,000 and one, I'm expecting $200,000 because I'm not always going to actually get to realize that $200,000 expected value. But the industry people will always push you to make the higher expected value move, right? Since if they have 20 clients doing that, they're going to come out way ahead if all 20 roll the 20% die and get the $200,000, right? Rather than lock up the more certain lower return. But you only get one life.

You only get one 22 to 32 years old decade and most people who spend a whole decade and don't achieve anything are not going to stick with it for another 30 years, realistically. So it's really hard to say what the right move is, even if one is clearly mathematically better. And I harp on it so much because I don't think most young people have anyone arguing for the virtue of the more risk-averse decision. Again, not to say that's the right decision, I just think you have no one in your camp who's saying, what about the thing that might be a little bit more certain but not quite as high yield? And you will see a lot of successful actors who did go that route, who made that choice because again, you can't expect, you can't calculate any of this exactly.

It's all an estimation, right? We don't know exactly what if you go to New York, you'll get this. If you go to LA, we've no idea. We're all taking a shot here, right? But many of the successful Broadway names on this podcast who you've heard of and who've achieved real level of success never took their full shot in LA to potentially realize their highest value. And then I'm going to also say there are many people who you've never heard of and anyone who's gone to drama school knows this, who are just as talented as some of those successful Broadway names, some of those amazing actors who did hit it big in TV and film. But there are so many names, you could read off full rolls of names who were just as good, who had every bit as much of a chance, every bit as much juice as those people from 22 to 25 who did take their shot and just never got the right luck, never got the right roll of the die and then ended up doing something else.

And some of them are very happy. It doesn't mean that they're not going to live happy and successful lives, but just to recognize that is their life that they're rolling the dice with. When we talk about the business of it all and you're talking about math, you're talking about chances and what are the best, you know, plays that I could make. Should I do this? Should I do that? I really like the way that Ian talked about it in terms of, you know, what you can control about a happy, successful life is maybe a little more important than just the strategy of it all. And there's nothing wrong with potentially, I'm going to say, there's nothing wrong with not maximizing your highest expected value when you're talking about these kind of decisions.

[1:40:00] Charlie Murphy: Okay, there we go. We near the two-hour mark. We're going to wrap up this well-stuffed stocking of an episode of Mapping the College Edition produced by Megan Courtier and Kelly Prendergast. Check us out on Mapping the College Edition on Instagram and let's see if we can get up to 7.1 million. It's that .1 that I'm really shooting for. Check us out on TikTok, on our website, all the places. Rate us, review us, tell us which adjectives you would assign to me, pretty, little, or liar. To my young artists out there mapping their journeys, I believe the poet laureate Ian was searching for is Samuel Hazel, the poet laureate of Pennsylvania who wrote the excellent poem To a Commencement of Scoundrels, which I invite you all to Google. We'll see you next week.