This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping The College Audition. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, Director of MTCA. That's Musical Theatre, College Auditions. Check us out at mtca.com. And today we've got Rick Edinger from Carnegie Mellon University on the pod. For our newer listeners, these College Deep Dive episodes, we explore the landscape of the college theatre world and try to demystify this daunting audition process. And this is our first College Act III episode. We've had a number of Act IIs, but our first three-act play, and definitely not our last. For all these programs where there's so much interest, we're always going to work to have the most current people in charge of the direction of the school, whatever that means.

And if I can make myself have the patience, I will try to give these people a chance to get settled in their positions before rushing them onto the pod. But don't hold me to that. There are a few programs with shifting heads that I'm champing at the bit to have back on, so we'll see how long I last. Though I do think, again, in general, giving a bit of time leads to a more accurate interview as opposed to their first day on the job, which we're going to see example of here with Rick, where he's got a little time to settle in before we brought him on. But part of the beauty of this specific triumvirate in having Katherine Moore and then Don Wadsworth and now Rick Edinger on is that you do really get a sense of the journey of the program and having those two previous heads on and now having a third in a new era.

Notably missing is the great Barbara McKenzie Wood, who we mentioned on the pod. Long time head when I was there and would be a fantastic interview still. So maybe there is still some meat on the bone for an act four. But I do think in Rick, I was really excited to dive into some of the more musical parts of the musical theater of it all. Now, I will say, if not for his recent retirement, we would, of course, have had Gary Klein on the show. I went to school with Gary, and maybe we still will in retirement, right? But only so many acts for one school that I'll make you endure. Even if it is my alma mater, there's only so many times I make you listen to Carnegie Mellon come on the pod. But I do think there's really something helpful in hearing what is similar, what's different, all the different ways to talk about the same institution.

And I'm going to repeat that with other schools as well. You're going to hear in Rick a new generation, a new vision, but you're also going to hear how it is grounded and what has come before and sort of their respect for the people that came before them. So I do really think you're going to enjoy this interview. Before we do get to that interview, on a sadder note, I'm sure you've all heard by now that Broadway lost one of its bright lights this week in the inimitable Gavin Creel. When I first heard he was dying and that he wanted to keep it extremely private, I didn't fully understand why. But then seeing this outpouring of public love and how many lives he touched in the ways he did, I do understand it a bit more.

He was a rare breed, a supernova of obvious and commercial talent who was nevertheless grounded in his artistry and as humble as can be. He was endlessly charming and funny while choosing not to take up all the oxygen in the room, which is a rare talent in my opinion. A lot of listeners have reached out after hearing the news to tell me how much they enjoyed hearing him in our interview, which we did way back in 2022. Some even told me that that was their first introduction to him as an artist, which is really meaningful to me to be able to have spread a bit of his joy and his light to new audiences in that small way. You know, in truth, personally, I didn't really know him very well. We shared a TPAP family, which I know that TPAP family mourns him deeply.

We shared a number of mutual friends. I will always remember hanging out with him at the bar at Celia's birthday party very early in Elizabeth and my dating life, like very early as in way too early to be expected to be arm candy in a building built with Tony awards. But it was so nice to have a friendly face that I sort of knew in this sea of Broadway luminaries and fancy people that I very much didn't know. He was at the time delighted at the idea that I was being put through the ringer and assured me that I was passing the test, that I was doing very well and that nobody could see the sweat dripping through my coat. It was a really friendly moment and gave me a lot of confidence in a stressful time.

You know, he really did have that amazing quality of making everyone who met him feel like they were his best friend or that they could be with time. You know, it's just if we just hang out more, we would really truly be best friends. And it really felt like that was genuine for him. And I think for so many people after that interview in twenty twenty two, he sent me the nicest text, which, of course, that interview was by far the longest one on one conversation we'd ever had together. He kept checking in during the interview to see how he was doing and if this is what I was looking for. And then in this text message, he gave me this long string of compliments about my hosting skills and how much he enjoyed the conversation and how he doesn't always get deep in all these interviews in this way.

And, you know, I, of course, have done nothing. You can listen back to the interview. I've done nothing out of the ordinary beyond just sort of putting the ball on the tee and stepping out of the way. Right. And really all of the artistry and all the depth really came from him. He also in that text, he sent me some amazing clips of walk on through, which when I look back at it, I am very sad to have not seen when it had its run at MCC. You know, there's just so many things like that in life which we intend to do. We intend to see. And then your chance is up, you know, and sometimes that's as simple as just like missing out on a Broadway show that you wanted to see or in this case, an opera to show that you wanted to see.

And sometimes it feels like bigger things that you wish you'd gotten to. So I really hope you all hug your loved ones closer this week, maybe resolve to do that one thing that you've been putting off, thinking you still had time. I'm going to try to do the same. So I'm going to leave you before I close this chapter, if we move on to the interview with Rick Ettinger, I'm going to leave you with one of my favorite clips from that interview where Gavin tells a really fun story that just happened to parlay beautifully into a conversation about type and unique artistry that I already had planned for us. So I hope you enjoy this clip of Gavin. Can I tell a story that's not mine to tell? You can cut this out.

Yes. Andrea Burns, the great Andrea Burns, told me a story about how she, I think she and maybe Julia Murney, or maybe it was Julia Murney, I can't remember. They went to see West Side Story at a high school, maybe their former high school. I can't remember. I'm telling a story so well. But there was a, it was West Side Story and it was Tony and the right underneath Tony was Tony's friend, who is obviously not a character. And they were like, Tony's friend. And Tony's friend was the short glasses, nerdy looking skinny kid who could sing like the wind. And Tony was the quarterback of the football team. So every time Tony would get up, he'd be like, I don't know, riff, I don't know. And then he would back up and Tony's friend would come up and sing his inner idea out of town.

It's one of my favorite stories ever. This is Cyrano de Bergerac as West Side Story is what you're giving me right now. Yes. You can thank Julia Murney, Andrea Burns. I credit both of them with that story. I can't remember which one it was, but oh my God, it's so fun. This is so good. And we have a nice, I have a couple of questions about type and some stuff that we're going to get into later. Some of the ways to change. I wonder if that were happening today, if Tony's friend might just be Tony, that if we have come far enough that our Cyrano's can actually be our Cyrano's. If I can get deep, I want to believe that. I'm not certain that audiences will accept it. That's the thing. That's what we have to change.

That's what the work is long. It's not an overnight fix. It's not, in my opinion, it's not unless you're going to burn it down, which I don't want to, but it has to change in a million ways. We can get into that also. This entire podcast is called, and we can get into that. And we'll get into that more. This is all a prelude to our six more episodes that are coming that we'll never actually get into. A legend. Very sad for us not to get to do those six follow-up episodes that we were promised. Sad for us all. All right. Well, on that note, I really do hope you enjoy this interview with the amazing Rick Ettinger from Carnegie Mellon.

[7:59] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to be joined by Rick Ettinger from Carnegie Mellon University. Rick went to school at Manhattan School of Music, Cleveland Institute of Music, Brooklyn College and Hunter College. And I'm going to let Rick tell you the history of all those schools in a second here. Rick's been on Broadway in the revival of Pacific Overtures, lots of wonderful acting gigs on TV as the world turns. Also a music director for Joe Iconis' new musical workshop, the unauthorized Hunter S. Thompson show that was at La Jolla, the pre-Broadway workshop of Joy, which had Friend of the Pod Erica Henningsen in it as well. Previously, Rick's been on faculty at Shenandoah Conservatory, the County College of Morris, the College of St. Elizabeth, has been a vocal coach for nearly 20 years.

He's currently an associate professor of music theater and the area chair for the acting musical theater program at Carnegie Mellon, which we remember is still in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. They take classes of about 12 actors, 12 MTs, offer degrees in BFA acting and musical theater. Rick, welcome on the pod. How are you feeling today?

[8:54] Rick Edinger: Great. Thank you for having me. That was a very generous introduction.

[9:04] Charlie Murphy: Oh, yeah. We like to give a lengthy bio to our guests to really make them feel warm and accomplished on the show. So I mentioned in the pre-show, you gave me a little rundown of the education. If you wouldn't mind, in terms of talking about your own educational path, talk me through these. I see four schools and how the degrees and how they finished. And, you know, this is something that many of our students do with their unique path. So talk me through how that worked for you.

[9:26] Rick Edinger: I love this question. I do have a very unique way into musical theater. I think my heart has always been in musical theater. I was working on getting my equity card while I was still in high school. Yeah, I ended up going to Cleveland Institute of Music in the Young Artist Program, which I don't think exists anymore, probably because we were a rebel class. This is the student age back then. So yeah, old artists back in the covered wagon days. So at Cleveland Institute of Music, I was a young artist. So I did my senior year of high school and first year of college at the same time. And then I continued there for my sophomore year. I was a voice and piano major, and I was studying classical music, though my heart was in musical theater.

Go figure. But I was like, oh, yeah, you know, there are people who take these degrees and move on in musical theater. So after my second year, I really wanted to be in New York. I begged my parents to transfer to Manhattan School of Music, got in, got a nice scholarship, went there for the first year where they put me in all first year classes and didn't transfer any of my credits. And then coming from a pretty very middle class family, you know, I didn't want for anything, but also did not have any sort of like excessive fancy needs. You know, my dad was in the military, my mom was a cafeteria worker. And so I they offered to refinance their home to put me through the rest of college for the next three years.

And at that point, I dropped out of college and just started auditioning and pursuing work. And fortunately, you know, I that's when I was in Pacific Overtures and did sometimes 75th birthday concerts all over, did some regional work. But then, you know, eventually needed that degree. I needed something to come back and teach. And because I because I also had had my heart in teaching. So I actually went to the city universities of New York, Brooklyn College and Hunter College, which were fantastic places for me. I studied with basically the same teachers that I studied with them in school music, just at a much lower cost $2,000 a semester. And it was probably the best decision of my life. And that's where where I started getting the connections into teaching and and adjunct work.

But yeah, it's a very non traditional path, my master's degrees in collaborative piano, which is essentially accompanying and vocal coaching. And so, yeah, it's it's such a great story for the listeners to hear. And, you know, many of our listeners, of course, are MTCA students. And so those people tend to be relatively resourced and they know they're going to be pursuing a college degree and they maybe have the finances to be able to to support that. But a lot of our listeners also are people who this is a free resource and are trying to figure out how can I and is it important enough to me to rack up a lot of debt potentially to pursue this and a conversation we have a lot of going. Do you want to be saddled with, you know, in this case, I've been your parents out with a lot of debt. But do you want to be saddled with a lot of debt as you walk into the industry where you might not be making huge amounts of money, you know, even if you're really successful?

[12:39] Rick Edinger: Yeah. I mean, I usually I ask people to look at it as like, you know, a small car loan. Yeah. Versus a house. There's a home loan for something you're paying off for 30 years or whatever. Yeah. Like, you know, you can pay down a car loan over 30 years at a within within reason. And so it's a reasonable amount of investment.

[12:55] Charlie Murphy: Yep. A home loan is much different. I mean, our very first podcast guest, Telly Leung was came on the pod and it was, I guess, 20 years after graduating school and he was just paying down his debt finally after like six Broadway shows or whatever the number is. I mean, it's truly it's a hard thing to do. OK, well, let's get into Carnegie Mellon. So our stalwart regular listeners will potentially have already listened to our wonderful interview with Catherine Moore a few years back or follow up with Don Wadsworth. So depending where they are in their podcast journey, this could be their very first introduction.

[13:22] Rick Edinger: So that's been one of my primary goals here. I would still say it's still an acting focused program. I think, you know, when I came in here and I had worked, you know, all over, I spent two years at Shenandoah University, which was a wonderful program. And, you know, coming from a sort of varied background from community college up through sort of other MT programs, seeing this program, I was skeptical. I was like, it's such an acting based program. I don't know. I don't know how our students are prepared to do this. And after being here, I mean, even after just the first year, I was like, oh, when you leave college with a BFA in musical theater, your occupation is actor. Your agent is going to want to be able to put you out for a wide breadth of roles, not just in the world of musical theater, which is just one genre of storytelling, under which there are multiple other genres.

But like, you know, there's television and film, there's plays, there's commercial work, there's all sorts of other kind of storytelling that you have to have an aptitude for. And when I look at our recent graduates, and that's across acting and MT, and I will say that is a pretty permeable wall in our building, as well as in the industry, you know, I see our students thriving in a multitude of genres and in a multitude of mediums, which I think is incredible.

[15:52] Rick Edinger: I like that. So I certainly don't want to take away from any of the acting focus. I'm actually sitting this week, we just hired a new professor to replace Gary Klein in 35 incredible years building this musical theater program. You know, we stand on his shoulders and the incredible work that he did and with our colleague, Claudia Banach, who is still with us here. But we just brought in Michael McKelvey. I'm sitting down with Claudia and Michael to take a look at the entire musical theater sequence and like, where can we tighten this up? Where can we bring in some new ideas? I'm bringing back our scene in song class with Michael teaching that to continue to bolster what we are doing there. I'm also currently working on a grant.

I have a quarter of a million dollar grant right now from the Mellon Foundation. They have very generously funded the support to start planning a center for new work development housed at our university. Because what I'm seeing nationally in the industry is that all of our new work spaces are sort of shutting down and we're losing funding for that. And so why not start setting that up on the academic level in a fulsome way that is really feeding into our local Pittsburgh downtown scene of Pittsburgh CLO, Civic Light Opera, the Pittsburgh Public City Theater, the Kelly Strayhorn Theater. And then eventually nationally as well so that we can be a developmental and workshop space. Our students can work alongside professionals and get that experience while they're here because when they leave, that's what they do.

They develop new work. I mean, when you look at the sort of icons, iconic graduates of our program, which to me honestly is pretty much everyone who's ever graduated from this program because I know because I've worked with so many of them. And they're so darn incredible to have in a room. But most of it's been on new work.

[20:05] Rick Edinger: It's so well said and I'm glad that is coming for CMU because it feels like the ethos of a playground, which Catherine talked a lot about and was so I think instrumental to what Carnegie Mellon was trying to do. But it's so actor focused in some ways because it's very difficult in a short period of time to get together composers. I mean, people did it. Pigpen did it. It's possible. But it's a lot harder to sort of put together all the pursuits of musical theater successfully without a little more structure and a little more help. The playground of let's devise from nothing in a short period of time works well sometimes for acting. But with musical theater, a little bit of structure, bringing in some professionals to allow that devising.

Yeah, we'll be working across the canon. So we'll be doing new musicals, new plays for the new devised work. So really trying to vary that programming where we're sort of getting down to the brass tacks of a basic strategic plan. And hopefully we'll have a considerable amount of implementation funding from generous donors and foundations. So come on, Mellon Foundation, get in there.

[21:07] Charlie Murphy: I love it. You already did a little bit of this, but I just love, you know, Catherine talked about the sort of sequence of one years, one through four in terms of curriculum. You mentioned some where you're bringing back from seen in song. Are there any other kind of like updates or changes to curriculum that you've seen in the past couple of years?

[21:22] Rick Edinger: I don't know if Catherine talked. Did she talk about the culture class that I think beginning to I think that that was it was just maybe about to go into place when she brought it up. Yeah, I mean, so the culture class was developed by Kyle Hayden at this school. And this fall is also going to be taught by a star Stewart. And it's part of the acting three sequence and the acting three sequence in the third year, the junior year is sort of centered around styles. So in the day might have been focused on Shakespeare and Moliere. And now, yeah, I mean, in the second year is to give you like a brief rundown. Right. So the first year is a lot of exercises. It's a lot of outside in work, inside out work, just sort of like discovering your instrument, responding to impulse, sharpening those skills.

Right. The second year is is a contemporary scene study in the fall, classical scene study in the spring, heightened text. And then the third year has been styles historically there. You know, back in the day, there was Chekhov and there was a comedy and there was Greeks and and all sorts of stuff like that. Right. And so we've held on to much of that as well, because I do think it's important for us to have a knowledge of the history, a knowledge of the various styles that have gotten and gotten us to today. You can't break rules until you know them. Right. So we should we we should still stand on some of those foundational elements.

[23:01] Rick Edinger: So Tony McKay is teaching Greeks in the fall to our juniors, to half of them, while the other half take the culture class. And the culture class is scenes from plays that center historically marginalized identities. And that can be anything from race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity, faith, religion, spirituality. And so that's that's helping students to navigate a the representation of that identity, how that aligns with themselves and also how to navigate speaking about that and communicating about that within a room. Right. Which is so important right now going into today's industry.

[23:36] Rick Edinger: Yes. Yes. And then the spring of acting three. So that's that's one one aspect of it. The spring of acting three. So we do many courses in acting three, seven weeks at a time will be comedy taught by Tony McKay. And he's going to go from vaudevillian comedy through sitcom and sketch comedy all the way up to contemporary contemporary plays and comedy. Kyle is going to teach a newer collaboration class, which is essentially going to be about having a writer in the room and having a dramaturge and a director working with you. And how do we navigate the conversations around working with the new piece and trying to make something work as it's still developing? These MFA writers these on a day to day basis.

I think of these MFA playwrights who are coming in. And yes, we're probably going to recruit some of our MFA playwrights and also bring in some outside professionals to work as well. I think we're going to offer it as an elective to our to some of our directing grad programs, as well as some of our dramaturges in the undergraduate program.

[24:43] Charlie Murphy: Really cool. This is so helpful. And then what about, you know, where Catherine didn't go as deep? I mean, she certainly spoke to her, but I'd love to hear you speak a little toward the sort of music side of the musical theater thing. So from a voice training perspective, from the you mentioned scene and song, you know, voice lab, all the different things that that you take. What is the kind of progression from year one to four as a singer or as a musician?

[25:05] Rick Edinger: Sure. Yeah. So just in terms of like voice study and private voice, our students receive a 45 minute lesson once a week for the first three years. And that's with either Michael McKelvey, our new hire, or Claudia Benack, who has been here for many years, taught Leslie and Kara Lindsay and Megan Hilty and all those fun stokes. Leslie's the only one who gets a single name. That's interesting. I just understand. No, it's good. It's that you've reached the level when you only have to say one name. Truly, truly. Right. Yeah. And so the two of them are incredibly well adept in vocal technique. Both of them have high level degrees in classical voice, but then also have the knowledge of functional voice training and science based teaching and understand how to navigate all of the styles.

Our students get a rich education there vocally. And then in the fourth year, all of the students in the MT program transfer to my studio where we focus on vocal coaching, getting them sort of industry ready. I work a lot on, you know, they're often getting auditions in that year and preparing for showcase and then also a fully in production. So then I'm also coaching all that work as well.

[26:15] Rick Edinger: And then in the musical theater sequence, the first year is predominantly music skills. We have two fantastic professors, Mark Domencik and Giovanna Reyes-Muir, who teach music skills to our students. They're divided into two different levels, one that's more advanced and one that's a little bit more introductory, depending on where the students are coming from. I mean, you're talking about six students and six students in each class. The focus of it, I've tried to emphasize to both Mark and Giovanna.

[26:44] Rick Edinger: The focus is I need them to be able to read music, right? They need to be musically literate by the end of this year. You don't need to be an expert playing piano, but you need to be able to teach yourself. Exactly right. Like you need to be able to look at a score in a rehearsal, understand what the music director is talking about, and be able to read it accurately. And so that's been really successful. They've sort of shifted gears to like, what are the skill sets that build toward that? What are the necessary understandings of harmony and structure? And then like, how do we get this to be a practical skill set? So much of our training in this building is very much about sort of the practicality, right?

Like, how do we practically apply this in a situation when we are moving toward production? That is not to consider its own merit on its own as a field of study. But you know, how do we use this now? For sure. Especially when you're doing this many different disciplines, you have to zero in a little bit. You can't learn all of music, and all of dance, and all of acting. Yeah. Yeah. So that was year one. So that's predominantly the first year of musical theater instruction. The second year is literature and repertoire, which is sort of like a vocal styles class combined with a history class, where we essentially go, and Claudia teaches this in tandem with one of our dramaturgy professors, Amanda Olmsted.

And they go through the history of musical theater and the decades, and the songs are assigned to students. They work on those things stylistically, but then also understand the history that went into those things. And then in the spring, acting a song. And so that goes through acting techniques within a musical context.

[28:23] Rick Edinger: And then the junior year is a cabaret mini. So we do half a mini this fall. It's not totally official, but I feel like I can share this here. Tom Kitt is going to come as our guest. Let's go. Friend of the pod, Tom Kitt. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. Super excited. And we will sort of honor his songbook. And we'll do a concert with our 12 junior MTs downtown at the Greer Cabaret Theater. The Pittsburgh Cultural Trust very generously offers their space to us. So we work on that and work within that. I mean, past composer guests have been last year with Stephen Schwartz at David Yazbek. We had Janine Tesori during the pandemic via Zoom. Stephen Flaherty, Kerrigan and Loudermilk, Kumi and Diamond, Adam Guan, Andrew Lippa.

And so, yeah. So, you know, Tom's one of my very favorite composers and also a great collaborator of mine. So he's going to be our guest. We'll do that for a minute. And then Michael's going to actually work on some scene and song work with the students for the rest of that semester after we complete the cabaret. And what is the focus of a scene in a song class? Well, I think for that, you know, a lot of a lot of the prior training and especially like in musical theater here is a lot of solo work, right? You're working a lot on solo voice. You're working a lot within solo songs, our voice lab that we have once a week. I'm sure folks have seen the videos, they call them the dusty red curtains.

They are not dusty red curtains. They are mauve. But yes, in our Czechos studio. Yeah, I'm sure you've seen videos of all sorts of folks who have done that for years on YouTube. But, you know, it's important that we also start to integrate just as we do in our acting classes, what it is to do ensemble work, what it is to go from a book scene into a song, time out a book scene to underscore with I mean, Richard Rodgers wrote those underscores of those golden age scenes so darn beautifully to capture exactly what he wanted out of the scene. So yeah, it'll be a little bit more of that sort of ensemble based work. And then the spring of the junior year, I teach a musical theater audition class. Because I'm often in professional rooms at the Chelsea office or Tara Rubin looking at folks for various projects, or on eco cast.

So I get to sort of give students a little bit of a way into that. Also really making sure that their books are feeling solid before they go into their senior year. Because that's really when when they're going to start booking work outside of just the summer stock season. And so their book should be reflective of what they need for the professional world and who they are now, as opposed to necessarily, I know some schools do an MT audition class earlier in the process. And it's like, well, they haven't had all the skill sets yet. So that it's teeing them up for success in that senior year and beyond.

[31:26] Rick Edinger: Well, let's get into the senior event. I mean, Catherine talked a little bit about the showcase process as it said, but it's really in the middle of COVID. It's pretty early COVID. And it was all digital at that point. How has that changed? And I guess where are we now from a digital and in person perspective of what what am I leaving school with as I'm launching into the business in terms? Yeah. So, um, I mean, our school was one of the first schools to do a showcase. That was like 30 years ago or so. We call them leagues back in the day. Yeah, exactly. Yes. And, and so you know, I think most programs have sort of latched on to that model. I will say that I think ours is very well attended.

You know, we have a database of 1100 individuals that we invite to our showcases. We do them in New York and Los Angeles. We've sort of fiddled, I've fiddled around with the model since I've been chair in I took the baton from Catherine in June of 2022. And I was just looking at sort of like attendance records and how we can like make this as least stressful for the students and also condense this as much as possible so that they also have enough time for meetings and appointments later in the week as they are in those two cities. So yeah, we now do five performances of our showcase in New York. We've tested out some various spaces. We've been at Theatre Row. This past year, we were at Signature Theatre, which was fantastic on 42nd Street.

I think that's where we will stay for showcase 2025. That's the plan. We do five performances in New York. Our showcase runs about 60 to 75 minutes. You're seen by multitudes of casting directors, agents, managers, producers, writers, network executives. And then those folks either do direct outreach with our students, or they come through the school and we have like a whole system of gathering that data and getting that to students.

[33:28] Rick Edinger: Yeah, it's such an interesting question. I mean, I've now, as we're in, I think it's a podcast number 180. As we've talked to a lot of smaller schools about the different, who do have showcases, some not all still have showcases, but many now do, and the different ways they're trying to innovate, partially because they don't necessarily have the attendance of a school like Carnegie Mellon. And it's really interesting hearing all the kind of creative ways that they're using their showcase experience. And it makes me wonder of like, how you think about innovation when you have something that is working very well, that is, that has, how do you keep up to date? Yeah, I mean, I think, I have considered it as well, because I came from the tradition of a more musical theatre centered showcase, um, which really only caters to the needs of some very narrow, like a very narrow lane of sort of representation and casting, right?

As opposed to the showcase that we do, really is scenes and songs, we aren't doing any dancing, we aren't doing any ensemble work, we are looking at scenes and songs. So you can really see this person as an individual, unique artist, which is sort of the hallmark of our program. And you can see them sort of how they work within that scene, you can see how they do solo work as a singer, as a singing actor, and how that acting work is integrated into their song work. Yeah. So yeah, it's proven to be a pretty successful model here and not something that I'm eager to change. But yeah, so in addition to New York, we also do three performances in LA at the Garry Marshall Theatre in Burbank. And the students are put up in hotels there by the school. And that's actually a little bit more in depth also, because we also have our other design options and directing options there with us at the same time.

[35:17] Rick Edinger: And the sense with recent classes, you know, in terms of what percentage of the cohort in general of the 24 end up in New York versus LA. And I guess also, I'm interested in the, you know, you talk about that permeable membrane, which I think is so true in the outside world. Certainly, people who are actors then end up doing musicals, but certainly musical people will end up in LA doing TV and film. Do you have a sense of sort of how that, where people tend to go of the musical theaters, they mostly start in New York to actors, how many in LA? Do you have a sense of that? Yeah, I mean, like our MTs tend to gravitate toward New York, that is sort of like the center, the epicenter of musical theater making.

But you know, in the recent years, I've seen a handful of them go to Chicago or LA. You know, some folks try it out in one city and then move. It just sort of depends on where the work is coming from. And I don't think there needs to be a plan for any one of them. Like you can, we are now at a place also, you know, I forgot to mention, we also do virtual stuff as well for our showcase, virtual materials. So on our website for our showcase, we have profiles for every single student, resume, two scenes that are fully produced on film, a reel of any of their material that they wish to share there, as well as a song or monologue. Most of the MTs do songs, most of the actors do monologues. But yeah, like you can really at this point, you can position yourself anywhere in the country. You know, if you want to live in Pittsburgh for the rest of your life, you can. And make that your home base and then go to New York when duty calls.

[36:52] Rick Edinger: We talked to a couple, two previous CMU alum, Ian Harding and Corey Cott, who both seem to be living in the South and just sending videos in and flying up when they need to fly up because that's the digital world we live in. Yeah. We talked a little bit about cost with Catherine too. And of course, we know CMU is not a cheap school. We have tuition prices in the 60,000s of dollars. Just how does it work in terms of currently with scholarship money for academic money versus money from the drama school itself, need-based money? How are you finding that? I know you've had some students recently who've gone in who've gotten great scholarship packages. Yeah, so let me set the record straight on all of this.

So yes, tuition is just under $65,000 a year. First year expenses, room and board, housing, food, all of that totaling around $18,000 on top of that. That would be an expensive car loan, Rick. That'd be a Tesla. A really nice car. Yeah, really nice car. Fortunately, CMU is a need-based financial aid institution. So that is to say that if your FAFSA recognizes that your family makes at or below a certain threshold, some folks get the entire tuition bill covered. We are predominantly need-based aid. There is a limited amount of scholarship based on talent. And so that is awarded, but I would say that that ranges in the $10,000 to $15,000 range.

[38:35] Rick Edinger: And nothing academically. You're not going to get big academic money from CMU. No, not really. You can't say the word FAFSA on a podcast. That $10,000 to $15,000 scholarship is typically the maximum threshold in terms of scholarship funding. But that is a guaranteed award for all four years. Whereas your financial aid package shifts and fluctuates based on your income from year to year. I was just making the joke that you can't say the word FAFSA on this podcast, Rick. After last year, and now it seems like it's going to be this year, they've said again, it's delayed till December 1st or whatever. So it bleeps out automatically. I will say, despite all of that, we moved our acceptance day back from May 1st to May 15th. And I will say that the CSS profile estimates that our students received were pretty accurate within a couple of thousands of dollars. So that at least is giving me some solace to the news that I saw in the New York Times last week.

[39:40] Rick Edinger: If you're early in your process and you're hearing words like CSS profile and going, what the heck's going on? Don't worry about it. Well, you'll learn about it eventually as you get into it a little more. Lots of forms. Lots of forms. We all know Carnegie Mellon is an elite academic university. And I don't think I talked about this with Katherine or Don, but I think it's a confusion off of our students. Sometimes if they have low grades, they'll go, well, I have no chance to get into Carnegie Mellon. It's such a great academic university. Talk to me about how does that balance of this.

[40:06] Rick Edinger: Predominantly, yes.

[40:36] Rick Edinger: What I would say there is that the artistic application is really what allows us to sort of narrow that number down, you know, to sort of the top candidates. And that's really where we go through with admissions, and they go through with a fine-tooth comb through transcripts. What we're looking for essentially are avoiding folks who have a lot of Ds and Fs. So you're talking truly red flags. Below a 2.0, we're going, this might be an issue. Like if you have Ds and Fs, that's like maybe, you know, especially in the acting track where you have a few more electives required than the MTs within the university, you may not be as successful here. Because these courses will challenge you. And so if you're struggling with your courses in high school, you know, that may be a challenge.

Because even with the drama program, there might be a history class. So there's classes, even if it's about drama, that it's still an academic class. But I will say that, like, there have been students who have had Ds and Fs, who we have advocated for because they are incredibly talented. And maybe they didn't have access to the tools that they needed, or maybe they were going through something very specific in their high school years. Something was happening at home or personally, medically, whatever that case may be. And we have offices and support programs at our institution that will help folks navigate through that. So, yeah, I would not let your grades stand in the way of pursuing a dream of coming here.

[42:35] Charlie Murphy: Now, Rick has said it, not me. So they don't believe me when I say that. But now you've said it, they're going to believe you. And it's really confusing because that is different than how a Michigan, which is also an elite academic university and elite musical theater school, that's different than how they work. You know, if you're at a 2.0, you might not apply to a Michigan in the same way that you would for a female.

[42:51] Rick Edinger: Yeah, I think, you know, they're a state school, right?

[42:55] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, and they're also more academic.

[42:56] Rick Edinger: So there are more academics that they're going to require, right? I mean, because as an MT, I mean, how many academic classes are you taking in the total of your four years at Carnegie Mellon? I mean, you take your computing class, which is like a basic math course. You take a composition class, interp. You take global histories.

[43:17] Charlie Murphy: Yep.

[43:18] Rick Edinger: And then most of your other courses are all embedded into your program already as an MT. As an actor, there are like five additional electives that you have to cover. That's why I was there. I mean, I think people are sometimes shocked to hear that, especially knowing it's a good academic university, just how little total academics there are outside of.

[43:35] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[43:36] Rick Edinger: I mean, it's not necessarily that there aren't academic courses. It's just that we, you know, are we have in the first year, all of our students are required to take an anti-racist and equitable practices in theater course, which was something that I had rallied for along with my colleagues as we were working through the pandemic. And we have the fantastic Kaya Dunn, one of the nation's leading cultural competency and intimacy coordinators teaching that course. But that counts as one of their, you know, one of their sort of like academic accreditation checkmarks.

[44:13] Charlie Murphy: Yep.

[44:14] Rick Edinger: All right. I'll wrap up this section with just the often. It's how I start this interview is just to talk about, you know, having taught at different universities and seen different kind of young actors, both in terms of at the university level. And also, I just know you've worked with a lot of young actors.

[44:28] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[44:29] Rick Edinger: At 17, 18 or looking at schools. What do you think makes the ethos of a Carnegie Mellon student different? Like when you meet the class of 12 and 12 and you go, this is what makes someone feel like a Carnegie Mellon student. What does that feel like in terms of if there is some sort of defining ethos?

[44:44] Rick Edinger: Sure. I don't know that there's like a defining ethos, but I will like I can give you sort of like these are some of the attributes that we definitely look for and sort of like assess in the auditions. But when I'm saying this, and so this is for everyone listening, do not try to change yourself to fit all of the marks.

[45:05] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[45:06] Rick Edinger: Yeah. They probably already live within you. So so don't stress about it. But like so these are some of the things obviously preparedness and confidence. Right. Like our students are always prepared. They come into class prepared. They are ready to work. They are game. They are. They are excited to play. Right. Within that, a spirit of playfulness, like a sense of dexterity and flexibility in your work. Willingness to try new ideas and approaches without fear or judgment. Right. There's there's there's sort of that like level of inhibition that we want to make sure that our students are steering clear of that. Like you're you're going to stay open. You're going to try things. And this may feel silly.

But there's a point to it. Right. As long as that's not crossing any personal boundaries. And then then we're good. Embodied work, physical presence, utilization of the entire body as an instrument. The ability to connect the sense of vulnerability, openness, empathy. Understanding of the human condition. Authenticity. Living presently in the moment, not just as rehearsed. Those are those are sort of like the hallmarks to me of characteristics of a young person coming into this program. And some may be here with those and some may be here with those. But like those are the things that we're going to continue through various skill sets, exercises, techniques continue to hone in on.

[46:33] Charlie Murphy: All right. That's what a great place to take a quick little break. And on the back end, we'll jump into some of the audition room and how we sniff for some of those very words.

[46:40] Rick Edinger: OK, good.

[46:46] Rick Edinger: All right. We are back with the amazing Rick Edinger and we're talking about the audition and application process. And I love you. You mentioned a kind of laundry list of what you're looking for in school students. I'd love to talk a little bit about in the audition process. How do you sniff for those things? So how do you, you know, look at and especially maybe we can talk to the prescreen process and then the live audition. How are you looking at questions of kind of raw skill and maybe specifically raw musical skill? I know we don't see the dance in the live audition.

[47:15] Rick Edinger: Correct.

[47:16] Charlie Murphy: How are we looking for those things and then weighing some of these? Some of that list was a little bit more holistic in terms of who you are as a human being. How did those kind of weigh in in terms of like amazing singer, really competent actor and the holistic? How do you think about those things?

[47:29] Rick Edinger: Yeah. I mean, so I will say that an audition at Carnegie Mellon is probably a little bit different than most of your most of your other auditions. We're not auditioning live a large swath of students.

[47:39] Charlie Murphy: Can you say those numbers again? You said it was almost 3000 sometimes prescreens, but then down to three to 400.

[47:45] Rick Edinger: Yeah. I mean, I don't even think we hit 300 in MT last year. I think we did. And those aren't quotas, by the way. Like if there were 500 folks that felt like they might be a good fit for us, we would have had 500 slots for MT. My quick math says that's as little as 10%. That's the smallest percentage we've heard yet on the podcast.

[48:07] Rick Edinger: Yes. I mean, like we had I think we auditioned 280 or so last year for MT and then just over 350 or so for acting. But yeah. So we spend time with each student. I mean, I. You know, you come in, I'm going to let you sing your two selections that you're really excited about. And, you know, you show me what you share with us, what you feel strongest is strongest with you. I don't need that to hit any marks vocally or stylistically. Just want to get a sense of like who you are and what you do and what you do well right now. Not your aspirations of like, I really hope my head voice develops.

[49:13] Rick Edinger: All right. Where you might sing as well. You never know. I mean, truly, truly, truly. Which I ain't going to lie. There have been times when I brought an empty into to an acting room and said, listen, watch this kid do this song. Uh huh. Right. Like maybe that wasn't present in their monologue. But watch what they do when they're in a musical setting.

[49:36] Charlie Murphy: Totally.

[49:37] Rick Edinger: And you know, that's the way in for some people. That was a way in for me. So, you know, in our room, me and Claudia will sit there with each student. We'll listen to those first two songs. We'll probably ask for at least a third. Sometimes we will continue digging through your book. What else you got? Often I'll be like, what's your favorite song? Yep. Like what is your go to song? I say this all the time. What is your go to song when you just need to listen to something to decompress? Or you need to like just like clear your mind. You're having like you're in your feels today. You know, I go to like Adele's version of Make You Feel My Love. The Bob Dylan tune, right? I think it's one of the most perfectly written pop songs.

I don't care if it's in your book. I don't want it to be in your book. I don't want it to be something you've prepared. Let me hear something that you're excited to share that just feels like you. And then, you know, if the material that you're sharing is predominantly in a chest dominant sound, right? Maybe we're going to ask you to do some exercises with us. Let's sing a phrase or two of this and let's do it in your head voice. Hey, can you make this sound, right? We'll sit there and play with you and work with you. If it feels a little bit more like a workshop or a lesson, then it feels like we're sitting here, you know, adjudicating your skill set.

[49:50] Charlie Murphy: Yep.

[49:51] Rick Edinger: Right. What we will often do in the singing portion of the audition. Now I'm saying that just to delineate the two kinds of rooms that you're in when in our auditions. You have sort of your musical theater room, which is where you'll be singing songs and acting in that. And then also your your acting room or your monologue room.

[51:01] Charlie Murphy: No, I mean, I think CMU is infamous for these, not only the multi-part auditions, but these long auditions, sometimes traveling from room to room, getting adjustments, additional material. And I think, you know, not aside from, of course, our students are always trying to go, what does it mean? They send me, what does that mean? We don't have to go deep into that. But I guess, you know, what are you looking for when you're asking for that third, fourth, fifth song? When you're giving some of these wacky adjustments, which maybe that's more the monologue room, but I think really it happens in both rooms. What are you looking for in the redirects, in the adjustment? What are you sort of hoping to see? Because obviously you're not just wasting your time. You want to see what are you looking for?

[51:33] Rick Edinger: Ultimately, we're looking for, like, do you have access to this? Right? Like, it's not even about you being able to do it. You know, I mean, if you are predominantly a belter, I keep using that as an example. So I'm going to flip it. If you're predominantly someone who sings in sort of, like, Western Euro classical soprano world, right, and belting or mixing is new to you, right, we might just we might play around with some exercises like, oh, can you make this sound? Right? Doesn't have to be perfect. But can you access it? Because if you can access it today, just like sitting here. And it doesn't have to be perfect, but you can at least, like, touch on it. Then we know that we'll be able to help you build that.

Right? So it's really like looking where are you succeeding right now? And where are you still developing? And within that developing skill set, are you able to just, like, touch on some things? And are you able to, like, find a point of access where you might be? We might be able to help you, like, dig a little deeper and cultivate that.

[52:34] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[52:35] Rick Edinger: Right. It's not about, like, you're not doing good enough work. It's not about you, you not having the skill set. No one cares about that.

[52:44] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[52:45] Rick Edinger: Yeah. I mean, I was saying you mentioned already the gameness, you know, the I think that is certainly a student that we've seen be really successful in a Carnegie Mellon room. It's not necessarily just the most flexibly skilled people, but the people who are willing to show that vulnerability and play and go, okay, here's where I am, versus the, like, I have everything perfectly prepared in every single way.

[53:03] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[53:04] Rick Edinger: It seems like they're often looking for that plus a flexibility. I often warn people not to, like, coach things within an inch of their lives. Like, you don't have to have a plan for the entire thing. Right? We start to, like, clench our work so tightly that we just can't let go.

[53:20] Charlie Murphy: Yep.

[53:21] Rick Edinger: And I'll often say, like, sometimes that is bad coaching, too. If it's coached within an inch of your life that you feel it's that way, then I'm like, I don't know that you've never done it before.

[53:28] Rick Edinger: Thank you for having me, Charlie. It's great to be here.

[53:58] Charlie Murphy: So, Rick, let's dive into how Carnegie Mellon University has evolved under new leadership. What changes have you seen?

[54:28] Rick Edinger: Well, the evolution has been quite significant. With new leadership, there's been a renewed focus on both the academic and artistic sides of the program. The integration of these elements is crucial for our students' development.

[54:58] Charlie Murphy: That's interesting. How important are academics at CMU, especially in the context of a performing arts program?

[55:28] Rick Edinger: Academics are incredibly important. We believe that a strong academic foundation supports the artistic training. It helps students develop critical thinking skills and a broader understanding of the world, which ultimately enhances their artistry.

[55:58] Charlie Murphy: What about the application package? What do faculties actually look at when reviewing applications?

[56:28] Rick Edinger: The application package is essential. We look at everything from the audition materials to the academic transcripts. It's important for us to see a well-rounded candidate who not only has talent but also a commitment to their education.

[56:58] Charlie Murphy: Do you watch the audition videos to the very end?

[57:28] Rick Edinger: Absolutely. We watch every submission in its entirety. It's important for us to see how candidates present themselves throughout the entire performance, not just in the beginning.

[57:58] Charlie Murphy: That's great to know. It really emphasizes the importance of consistency in performance.

[58:28] Rick Edinger: Exactly. We want to see how candidates handle the material from start to finish, as it reflects their professionalism and dedication.

[58:58] Charlie Murphy: Speaking of dedication, what advice would you give to students preparing their audition materials?

[59:28] Rick Edinger: My advice would be to be authentic. Choose pieces that resonate with you personally and showcase your unique voice. It's important to let your personality shine through in your selections.

[59:58] Charlie Murphy: That's invaluable advice, Rick. Thank you for sharing your insights today.

[1:00:28] Rick Edinger: Thank you, Charlie. It's been a pleasure discussing these important topics.

[1:00:58] Charlie Murphy: Yes, yes, yes. Love that conversation with Rick.

[1:01:28] Charlie Murphy: Definitely a conversation that makes me feel old. Having seen so many of these different schools transition into their new eras, it is definitely odd to see that happening at my alma mater.

[1:01:58] Charlie Murphy: You know, Catherine and Don were my professors, alongside all those great names Rick mentioned, Tony McKay and Barbara Kenzie Wood and others. Legends all, as they put it.

[1:02:28] Charlie Murphy: Now, of course, new names and new people, as is true at all these places. It's exciting stuff, but it makes you feel old.

[1:02:58] Charlie Murphy: While we're talking about Carnegie Mellon professors, and not to turn this whole podcast into an in-memoriam episode, but I do want to send out some love to Kath Warman, who was a Carnegie Mellon professor of mine, who we also lost this month.

[1:03:28] Charlie Murphy: A really sad month that's turned into with people leaving us, I think both celebrities and then some people that we knew. But Kath was a true one-of-one when it comes to her spirit, creativity, her ingenuity.

[1:03:58] Charlie Murphy: I think it was the class I least expected when coming to school and where I surprised myself the most. You know, as someone who likes to understand the intellectual side of everything artistic, it was very easy for me to latch onto the acting classes and access my heart and my gut areas through the head of a character.

[1:04:28] Charlie Murphy: But then Kath challenged us to explore the physical from an outside-in perspective, to often let the body lead the head. We all surprised ourselves. We all embarrassed ourselves.

[1:06:50] Rick Edinger: Thank you for having me, Charlie. It's great to be here.

[1:07:20] Charlie Murphy: Absolutely! So, Rick, let's dive into how Carnegie Mellon University has evolved under new leadership. What changes have you seen recently?

[1:07:50] Rick Edinger: Well, there's been a significant shift in our approach to training. The new leadership has really emphasized a more holistic view of education, integrating academics with the performance aspects of our program. This means that we’re not just focusing on the artistic side but also ensuring that our students are well-rounded individuals.

[1:08:20] Charlie Murphy: That’s interesting! How important are academics at CMU, especially in the context of a performing arts program?

[1:08:50] Rick Edinger: Academics are incredibly important. We believe that a strong academic foundation supports artistic growth. Students are encouraged to engage with their academic studies seriously, as it enriches their understanding of the world and informs their artistry.

[1:09:20] Charlie Murphy: That makes a lot of sense. Now, when it comes to the application package, what do faculty members actually look at?

[1:09:50] Rick Edinger: Faculty members look at several components of the application package. We assess the audition materials, academic transcripts, letters of recommendation, and personal statements. Each piece gives us insight into the applicant's potential and fit for our program.

[1:10:20] Charlie Murphy: Do you watch the audition videos to the very end?

[1:10:50] Rick Edinger: Yes, we do! It's essential for us to see the entire performance. We want to understand not just the talent but also the commitment and passion that the student brings to their work.

[1:11:20] Charlie Murphy: That’s great to hear. What advice would you give to students preparing their application packages?

[1:11:50] Rick Edinger: My advice would be to be authentic. Showcase who you are as an artist and a person. Make sure your materials reflect your unique voice and perspective.

[1:12:20] Charlie Murphy: Authenticity is key! How do you think students can best prepare for their auditions?

[1:12:50] Rick Edinger: Preparation is crucial. Students should practice extensively, seek feedback from trusted mentors, and be open to growth. It's also important to choose material that resonates with them personally.

[1:13:20] Charlie Murphy: Absolutely! And what about the balance between acting and singing in musical theater auditions?

[1:13:50] Rick Edinger: Finding that balance is vital. Students should demonstrate their strengths in both areas. We look for versatility and the ability to tell a story through song and performance.

[1:14:20] Charlie Murphy: That’s a great point. How does CMU support students in their journey beyond college?

[1:14:50] Rick Edinger: We have a robust network of alumni and industry connections. Our faculty actively help students navigate the transition from college to professional life, providing guidance and resources to help them succeed.

[1:15:20] Charlie Murphy: That’s invaluable! What are some common misconceptions about the audition process at CMU?

[1:15:50] Rick Edinger: One common misconception is that we only look for the most polished performers. While talent is important, we also value potential and the willingness to learn and grow.

[1:16:20] Charlie Murphy: That’s a refreshing perspective. Lastly, what do you hope students take away from their experience at CMU?

[1:16:50] Rick Edinger: I hope students leave with a strong sense of self and a clear understanding of their artistic voice. We want them to be confident, adaptable, and ready to tackle the challenges of the industry.

[1:17:20] Charlie Murphy: Thank you, Rick! This has been an enlightening conversation about Carnegie Mellon University and the audition process.

[1:17:50] Rick Edinger: Thank you, Charlie! It’s been a pleasure.

[1:18:20] Charlie Murphy: Alright, that's it.

[1:19:21] Charlie Murphy: Another episode of Mapping the College Audition produced by Megan Courtier and Kelly Prendergrass.

[1:19:23] Charlie Murphy: You can follow us at Mapping the College Audition on Instagram and check us out on YouTube if you want to see our faces having these very same conversations.

[1:19:28] Charlie Murphy: And as always, check us out at mtca.com for more information about our individual coaching services.

[1:19:39] Charlie Murphy: If you're enjoying the pod, please make sure you subscribe at your podcast platform of choice and if you're inspired to write us a rating and a review, we'd be honored to receive it and we might even read it on the show.

[1:19:50] Charlie Murphy: To my young artists out there mapping their journeys, get into that while you can get in.

[1:19:56] Charlie Murphy: Until next week.

[1:19:57] Charlie Murphy: Mapping the College Audition.