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[0:00] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping The College Audition. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, Director of MTCA. That's Musical Theatre, College Auditions. Check us out at mtca.com. And today we've got Sara Jean Ford on the pod. For our newer listeners, in these artist explorations, we aim to explore the paths to success that artists have forged and are still forging, and tease out how their theatrical training has helped them blaze that trail. I really loved getting to chat with Sara. I think it's really launching a bit of a mini-series. It won't necessarily all be sequential, but I've pitched this kind of mini-series where we really focus on self-discovery and what that process is for artists. You know, I'm really trying to dig into that question that so many of our high school seniors ask themselves.

When these colleges say, "Hey, just show me who you are," and then they all feel like, "Okay, but what does that mean?" So we get as granular as stuff like Sara's hair journey, but we also try to talk a bit about what undergirds a changing hairstyle, and having the outside reflect the inside, and what that can mean that goes beyond just the superficial. So for some of our students, it's the kind of stuff that this question gets reflected in in material choice. It gets reflected in essay prompts, in interview questions, in the auditions themselves, but all of it coming from a bit of that core of self-investigation. We talked about it recently at our Chicago Mock with everyone, and I love one of our amazing coaches, Marcus Crawford Guy, the way he put it.

He was talking about that kind of process of self-excavation. I'm actually not sure he used the word exactly self-excavation. It was something like fancy and Scottish that he used. But he was talking about how when the panels were asking, people behind the table went digging, the students were really good at revealing themselves, but that it really is our job to be self-excavators, to do that digging for the schools, and to some extent say, "Look, here are the treasures I've dug up," right? And I drop Marcus's name specifically to say that he is coming on in the next few weeks. We do have him scheduled in what I'm sure will be a much-anticipated episode, and we're going to dive deeply into some of these very concepts that we talked about today, as well as some more with him.

While we're talking MTCA, we have just got back from full weekends of back-to-back LA Mocks, along with that Chicago Mock that came the weekend before. Such a joy to see so many of our students and parents out on the West Coast. And now, finally, our big Mock tour is over, and we only have three Mocks left. One at the top of December, and then the top of January in New York City, and then our online Mock at the top of January as well. So please make sure, those who've not yet signed up for one of those, that you make that Mock a priority. You know, we always say these Mocks are the highest priority for our MTCA students, above masterclasses, above private auditions, all of which we think are really great, but those Mocks are really the number one most essential event for a student who's working toward these college auditions.

Okay, I've done my shilling. Oh, no, the one other thing I wanted to shill for was just make sure you don't miss, if you want to hear a little bit more of my voice and some exciting webinar content, tomorrow night, we have our wellness webinar at 9 p.m. Eastern. Really excited for that one. We're gonna talk about psychological health and how you can get yourself prepared to walk into an audition in a healthy place. So much of what we talk about in this podcast, especially come January and February. I hope you all are staying happy and healthy out there. Just an FYI, next week for Thanksgiving, we are going to keep plugging away with a normal school episode. We've got Ryan Kaspersak from Montclair, my old friend.

Sometimes we've done like a mailbag episode or a special episode for Thanksgiving. Maybe we'll do one of those over the winter holidays, but because we did have a nice backlog of episodes recorded, we're going to just keep plugging along. I know some of you, especially our MTCA-ers, maybe especially our MTCA parents, have mentioned particularly to me that they enjoy those mailbag episodes or what I call the "oops all takeaways" episodes. We've gotten a lot of positive feedback about that. Thank you. That's very sweet. I find that gratifying. We will keep working those in where we can, but I also want to make sure we stay on track with all the school and artist information that's going to be, I think, time relevant to all of you as well. So always a balance. But let's dive into this episode now with the lovely Sara Jean Ford.

[4:20] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to be joined by Sara Jean Ford. Sara has a BFA and MT from Carnegie Mellon. She's been on Broadway in Cats, How to Succeed, A Little Night Music, Phantom, where she played Christine, Finian's Rainbow. She's been on tour with Wicked, all kinds of amazing shows. Sara, welcome on the pod. How are you feeling today?

[4:40] Sara Jean Ford: I'm feeling good. I'm so happy to be here, Charlie. I'm glad we finally worked it out.

[4:43] Charlie Murphy: I'm so excited to have you. I've pre-warned you a little bit, but I want to put a little framing device in this conversation that I'm really hoping we can do a deep dive and we'll see how we dive and how it goes there, but about self-discovery. So I'm going to ask you a lot of the same questions I ask a lot of guests. We'll talk about your early life, high school, college, early career, mid-career, all those things. But I want to frame in that conversation of discovering and then deciding and rediscovering and redeciding that question of who you are.

[5:11] Sara Jean Ford: I love this question. It's a good question.

[5:14] Charlie Murphy: It's a good question. It's something a lot of our listeners, I think, struggle with. It's something I've promised our listeners that we'll do a few deep dives. So you're just the first of many of these deep dives into this topic, because I do think the way that we did an exploration about two years ago on type, we did a lot of conversations on type, and I'm hoping we kind of not settled that question, but people have an understanding of type, especially as it relates to this process in the modern era. And I'm hoping we can do a similar kind of nuanced look at this of it's the same ideas in some ways of type and brand, but with a more modern sense of authenticity and who you are and so much of what the colleges are looking for.

[5:48] Sara Jean Ford: Yeah.

[5:48] Charlie Murphy: So you're a game for the task.

[5:50] Sara Jean Ford: I'm game. I'm ready.

[5:51] Sara Jean Ford: I'm excited.

[5:52] Charlie Murphy: Sign me up. Okay. So before we do too much of that for you as an adult, can you give me a little 60-second catch up of like you getting to 16? So like where you grew up, you know, how you discovered theater. How do you get to the point of where you'll be applying to colleges? And then we'll dive into that.

[6:08] Sara Jean Ford: Yeah. Okay. I grew up with musical, like a pretty musical family. My grandparents were singers. They sang in barbershop choruses and quartets. And so they really nurtured my love of singing, which I had since I was 10. And so did my mother. And she actually got me involved in a chorus. I grew up in Los Angeles, California, Ventura, Los Angeles. She got me involved in a chorus at a very young age that ended up doing background vocals for TV shows and recording artists and all sorts of fun people. So I got my Screen Actors Guild card at the age of 10. And I was like a working studio musician from the ages of like 10 to 14. And I was like in and out of just really cool spaces, sharing space with very interesting people.

And then when I was about 14, I was like, "Oh, but I want to be on Broadway." Like, that's always been the goal. So then I have to learn how to actually sing. I can't sound like a kid because I was in a kid's choir. And they started to be like, "Hey, you are sounding mature." So I started to take lessons and just really developed my voice. And then I discovered that I had this like pretty high soprano. And then I started just doing plays in high school. I mean, honestly, like we didn't have a lot of money. It's not like we were like it. I wasn't going to a performing arts high school. I was just in my public school doing plays. And then I started to get involved in the community theater, which thank goodness, it was the Young Artists Ensemble in Thousand Oaks, California.

That was just like such a lovely company that I grew up doing theater in. And I didn't go to college right away. I actually graduated from high school and went to community college in Moorpark, California. And they all too had a really great theater department. So I was able to sort of like be a big fish in a small pond and basically just get a lot of confidence in myself.

[8:07] Charlie Murphy: And can you tell me a little bit about what your reasoning went by? You didn't go to college immediately.

[8:12] Sara Jean Ford: Yeah. We didn't have a lot of money. It was, you know, we just didn't have a lot of money and that was it. So we didn't quite like know. It wasn't like, "Oh, these options are so available to you." It just wasn't. And luckily, the school that the community college that was right in town, like had a great theater department. So I was like, "You know what, I'm going to go there and just sort of like figure it out and see."

[8:42] Charlie Murphy: And then did you do an audition tour? How did you discover Carnegie Mellon? Did you do like a couple?

[8:47] Sara Jean Ford: Yeah. I mean, it really all comes down to, you know, like that one teacher that just like zeroes in and they say like, "Hey, like I really think you should look at this one school." And as I had played Koonaganda in Candide at the community college. And so he was sort of like, "Oh, you're like a Kristin Chenoweth type." And actually, funnily enough, he thought that Kristin Chenoweth went to Carnegie Mellon. So he was like, "Oh, you should go to Carnegie Mellon. You're the second person to tell me that exact story." So there's some room out. Literally, someone else told me and I'm sure it wasn't the same teacher. I would be shocked if it was. That's why they had it at Carnegie Mellon because they thought that's where Kristin Chenoweth went. Isn't that funny? Yeah. So like I looked there and I just sort of fell in love with it on the website. I never traveled there. I never went. I just like kind of just fell in love with it.

[9:36] Charlie Murphy: Did you do like LA Unifieds or whatever? You auditioned in LA?

[9:39] Sara Jean Ford: Yeah, I auditioned in LA and they did come out, like Carnegie Mellon came out and did like a sort of financial thing. And my mom and I went and I remember her just being like, "I don't know how we're going to do this, but we'll figure it out." And we took out every loan on the planet and we made it happen. I actually just paid off my loan.

[9:58] Charlie Murphy: Congratulations. That was Telly Leung was our first guest. And he said the same thing. He was like, "After my sixth Broadway show, I just paid off my student loans," which is certainly something a lot of our students are thinking about and advice we often give of like, "Maybe don't take out all of those loans. Maybe that's there's so many great programs now. I don't know that you would need to. Hopefully you can make a different financial choice." But so amazing. So you're going to get into Carnegie Mellon on all the wrong reasons, because you're told you're Kristin Chenoweth and Kristin Chenoweth went there. What was your sense then as you're, you know, 18, 19, I guess maybe as you're, if you went to college, community college first, what was your sense then of that question of like, who you are?

We're going to sort of check in of like, you know, yes, I guess we can, what your, what kind of roles you would play, but like, who was Sara? If I were to like, snapshot you and be like, "Tell me about yourself as a person." Who was Sara at 19 at 18 doing this process?

[10:44] Sara Jean Ford: Um, Sara was a, like a dreamer, like a big old dreamer, and a big, well, she was like, really funny, and like, really comedic, and very imaginative, and a really, really curious about acting, and like acting like Shakespeare, and Clifford Odets, and Tennessee Williams. Like that, I really wanted to, I felt like I was such, I was really confident in my voice, very confident. And so I, yeah, I just wanted to, you could have seen yourself at 19 going, "Hey, when I graduate, maybe I'm going to do a lot of Tennessee Williams and Shakespeare, and maybe I'll sing, but who knows exactly what my career will be?"

[11:34] Sara Jean Ford: Yeah, I kind of, yeah, I didn't know. I mean, I did want to be a lead on Broadway. Like, I knew what I wanted, you know, but it wasn't because like, I wanted to be a star. It was because I wanted to be the front runner of telling the stories. I wanted the stories to come out of my mouth.

[11:49] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. You know, that was really important. And it sounds like, were your parents supportive of the dream? Were they sort of, other than difficult financially, but they're, we're gonna make it work if we can?

[11:57] Sara Jean Ford: Very, very supportive. Thank goodness. I'm very, yeah, lucky.

[12:02] Charlie Murphy: All right. And then that same question. So, you know, we've had too many guests. I've already apologized to too many Carnegie Melloners of over-representing the pod, but I'd love to hear what was the Carnegie Mellon experience. And then, especially in that context of like, how did the person who came in at 18 or came in at 19 change over those three, four years? How did that feel for you as, you know, you were, yeah, what was the experience? Did you get what you wanted out of educationally? And then sort of, how did it feel like that it changed who you are as a person?

[12:28] Sara Jean Ford: Well, yeah, I think I actually, I got in as an actor. I didn't get in as a musical theater student and I was sort of wait-listed, sort of, I say sort of, because they never officially announced that. They just called me and said, "Hey, you didn't get into the musical theater department. We're so sorry, but will you still come as an actor?" And I was like, "These singers must be amazing. Cause like, I'm pretty good." I was like, "What?" But I just, I was like, "Yeah, absolutely." Cause again, Clifford Odets, Tennessee Williams, like I wanted to do the real stuff. So I went and then like the week before I got into school, I got a schedule that had all musical theater classes and I just didn't question it. And I just went.

[13:19] Sara Jean Ford: It's, you know, because it is I was talking about it is like an MFA program kind of I mean, you're going in with that kind of intense level of focus. There are 18 year olds who can do it. But I think a lot of 18 year olds are like, I wanted to like party a little bit and enjoy my life for a second. And this, again, the version of discovery, like discover who I am outside of theater a little bit before. Yeah. Okay, acting, singing, dancing all day.

[15:08] Sara Jean Ford: I think almost all of my classmates toyed with the idea of quitting or going to something else. And I was one of the only ones that didn't.

[15:32] Sara Jean Ford: I don't know, backpacking around Europe, if you're lucky enough to do that, or some experience. Yeah, I was just like a camp counselor back at home, you know, and I loved it, actually. But so do you feel like not radically changed in terms of like the who you were conversation at 22 versus 19 or whatever you felt like you came in? I keep saying 19, maybe you're 20. But after two years off, and then you come in, do you feel like you were a different person graduating at 22 or 24 for you? No, I was pretty sure of myself. Yeah, pretty sure yourself.

[16:50] Sara Jean Ford: You thought I'm gonna be on Broadway, I'm gonna be funny, I'm gonna be playing these lead roles, a lot of the things that seems like you went in and successfully did was was that showcase experience good for you? Was it like, hey, I showcased I got the agent. I was early career success.

[17:02] Sara Jean Ford: Yeah, it was early career success. I got Wicked right from my showcase. And so I booked Wicked before I graduated. And then I also got my agent before I graduated. Um, you know, looking back, I wish that I had like, sort of, like, sort of just taken my time with all of that. Because then by the time I got to LA showcase, I had like, agents and people that were interested in me, but I was already like, booked in LA.

[17:29] Sara Jean Ford: And there was like a whole world that I was very, I will say that I was very, like, my focus was very narrow. I was just like, Broadway lead, you know, and I never was like, Oh, wait, what about like, sitcoms and movies and film and like, I never really I wish that I had widened, I tell my students a lot, please widen your focus and like, let it all in. But it's hard. It's hard to do that, you know?

[17:55] Charlie Murphy: Well, especially when that box of Broadway lead takes so much gas, so much foot on the gas that it's like, because you have to go for it with tenacity. But then yeah, what if you are going to be, you know, Annaleigh Ashford or whatever, then who then gets up in amazing sitcoms like it can be that too, of course, but like, yeah, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard thing to stay truly open.

[18:15] Sara Jean Ford: It's fair. Yeah, you're right. Yeah.

[18:18] Charlie Murphy: Did you feel like you were you putting yourself into like, any kind of boxes? Or do you, I guess, meeting the industry? Do you feel like that changed anything about kind of the who you are conversation of like, Oh, I guess this is how people are seeing me. And so then I'm going to give them more of that or I'm going to react against that. What was that experience as you're like, Glinda sounds like it's describing some of what you know, you were playing in Candide. It's not so different. Right. But like, how is that now at interaction of like being seen by agents being told what you are by agents? How is that affecting some of the sort of who you are conversation?

[18:48] Sara Jean Ford: 100% I let this business sort of tell me who I was. I always joke that I was the girl playing the part of the girl who plays the ingenue.

[19:00] Charlie Murphy: The girl who played the part of the girl who played the ingenue. Yeah, break that up for me.

[19:03] Sara Jean Ford: Yeah, because I in college, while I was like this, this, you know, funny soprano or whatever. I, I also like had like short spiky pink hair and like I was like kind of punky and kind of like, you know, just like I was like a weirdo. And, um, and I do remember somebody telling me like, you're probably going to want to like look like the part that you're going to play. And so I grew my hair out long and let it be blonde. And, um, and I always sort of, I, I always wondered, like, if I had come into the industry looking the way I had looked, if I would have confused people, or if I would have like put my stamp on who I was, you know, um, I've always felt like, too smart and grounded to be the ingenue that I've had to play.

[19:57] Sara Jean Ford: And a lot of even like, my first review in New York City was in The Fantasticks. And they, I think New York Times said something about me being like, just too grounded or something to play a 16 year old girl. And I was like, interesting. Um, you know, so I've always sort of felt like a little, I don't know, I never, I sang like an ingenue, but I didn't want to play the ingenue, you know.

[20:24] Charlie Murphy: I had a little later on, I had a bunch of questions about hair. I was like, I have a hair, but let's do it. Can we talk, I didn't know the pink spiky hair. I imagine you did not, did you audition for college with pink spiky hair?

[20:35] Sara Jean Ford: I auditioned for college with like, copper red, short hair.

[20:40] Charlie Murphy: Okay. So can you take me through a little bit of your hair journey? Cause I've, I've seen some of it. I did this a little with Beth Malone when we were talking about type and long and lustrous. And then it's like really pixie cut short and all the different things. So talk me through, what was your hair journey from 17 to now? We're not going to say the age, but older. And it's been at one point gray at one point, blonde again, then red again. Talk me through all these different.

[21:02] Sara Jean Ford: Yeah, I guess it was, it was red all throughout high school and then college it was red, but then it like started to turn more like maroon pink.

[21:12] Sara Jean Ford: I like that you're saying it started to turn as if you didn't turn, it didn't like naturally start to, it just started to turn pink. I'm not sure what happened.

[21:18] Sara Jean Ford: No, I don't know. I had no control of these things.

[21:20] Charlie Murphy: Went into the sun.

[21:23] Sara Jean Ford: Yeah. And, and it was always sort of like short and cut, like very retro. I mean, this was the early 2000s. So it was like, I don't know what I was doing. And then, yeah, then I was like, Oh, I'm, I don't look like how I sound. So I grew it out to like this very like shoulder length blonde. That was, and I guess that's sort of my natural color, a blondish strawberry blonde, I don't know, dirty blonde. And then it was blonde forever. When I went on tour with Phantom, I dyed it like Auburn, and it was like a long Auburn. And then I came wearing a wig, I assume in Phantom?

[22:02] Sara Jean Ford: Yeah, and I was wigged, and I was on tour. So like, I was like, no one cares. And then I came back, I cut it all off. And I bleached it pretty blonde. And then it was like short, really bright blonde for years. And then, and then I don't know. Oh, yeah. And then, well, then gray at some point, right? You let you know, right?

[22:35] Sara Jean Ford: And then I was like, Oh, I have so much silver. And then it just went pure silver. And I was silver for like years. And then I, again, I sort of felt like, Oh, is this like holding me back? Like this silver? Like, people don't I walk in there? Like, is she 50? Is she 30? Like, what, what age is she? So then I was like, I'm gonna go back to my red. I love that red. And so I'm right now.

[23:13] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, it's something I certainly didn't know, I guess, how many women in their, let's say, late 30s, I don't know what the right number is, but do really go gray, and that they're just dying their hair. Like, my stepmother, like has dyed her hair since she was in her late 20s, where it's just like, she's always had brunette hair.

[23:43] Sara Jean Ford: Since I was in my 20s, since college, my hair has been gray.

[24:14] Charlie Murphy: And you can be this complicated, ever changing person. But I think so many of them when they hear which is advice from this podcast, but advice from colleges to have, like, just whoever you are, be that thing. I think they're sort of like, so does that mean I should dye my hair? Should I paint the fingernails? Should I do like what? I guess what I'd love to hear, like, what was your version of like, as I'm going through how I feel internally? Was the hair changes mostly what you think you wanted other people to see? Was it a manifestation of, you know, Felicity cutting it off to go I feel like this or whatever, you know, what, how much of it was internal versus how much was it external in terms of those changes?

[24:49] Sara Jean Ford: I think every time it went to like, when I mean, when it went to blonde, it was an external like, I, you know, what happened is I was in, I was in college, and they were casting the Phantom of the Opera movie. And Patrick Wilson was already cast as Raoul and he's an alum, and they were having a hard time finding a Christine and he said, Well, let me see if I can find someone from my old college. And two, two of us were sort of picked to audition, and it was me and this other girl. And she had long brown curly hair, and this beautiful face. And I had my short maroon, punky kind of spike hair.

[25:35] Sara Jean Ford: And I remember watching her tape and being like, Oh, dear God, like, she looks so much better. Um, but I felt like I was the stronger singer. And, but I didn't feel like I was like, but if you just look at me, like, there's no way that they will have an imagination and see that I. So I think that was like sort of the impetus to like start and, and start to go blonde. Every time that I've like, done like a wild shift to like red or whatever. I think that's always felt very internal and very much like, Oh, this is me. This feels like me. I kind of would equate it to also getting tattoos. Yeah, like I have like four tattoos. And, you know, I got my first, well, I got my first tattoo in college, but I got my second tattoo, which was like a big earth, and it's on my back.

I got it right after I got cast as Christine in the tour. And it because and it was sort of my like way of being like, fuck you. I'm not a non can I say fuck you. I'm not an ingenue. You know, I'm a different ingenue. It was like my way of like, you know,

[26:39] Sara Jean Ford: On the aging ingenue, I think it's interesting to think about how we interpret ourselves and how we present ourselves. Like, I know what my red hair version is, what my spiky red hair version is, and how I'm supposed to interpret this conversation. Sometimes when I give notes, I feel like I gave a 60-second, beautiful poetry of an acting note about objective and obstacle, and the student will be like, "So, louder." And I'm like, "No, that's what I said." But you're also trying to be like, "What do I do with all that?" To a 17-year-old, what do they do with the idea of embracing themselves and having their outside look like their inside? But I don't know what my red hair is, I guess.

[27:09] Sara Jean Ford: This is a hard question. It doesn't have anything to do with being an actor or a performer. It has everything to do with how you want to present yourself and express yourself in the world. I have a 12-year-old daughter, and every day she comes up in a new outfit and a new look. She's really into different, weirdo fashion. She keeps saying, "I finally figured out how to dress myself." The other day, she said, "I just love putting on an outfit because it tells people who I am and how I am." I found that interesting.

[27:39] Sara Jean Ford: But then it brings me to another point, Charlie, which is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. I was the girl that rolled up to the fancy party in Doc Martens and jeans and a flannel, with a full face of makeup because I just came out of Phantom of the Opera. I remember someone saying, "You look like you just wandered in off the street." Then I looked over at people in my industry who were getting the jobs and I wasn't, and they were dressed to the nines, working the room, especially as women or female-identifying individuals, being asked to present a specific way. I wish someone in college had told me, "Just look like you want to be there." Not necessarily dress up, but look like you. You're intentional.

[28:18] Sara Jean Ford: My intention was that I didn't want to look like I was trying too hard, or that I was lazy. Is it the same part of you that put the globe on your back that was saying, "Screw you"? Did you feel some of that pressure and think, "I'm not going to bow to you. I'm not going to get dressed up for this party. I don't want to be here"?

[28:42] Sara Jean Ford: Yes, and I don't know how well that has worked for me. I often wonder if it hindered me at times. I always had that same feeling. It's less about dressing but about networking and feeling people doing that. I felt like I needed to do the opposite, whatever that was. I just hated that feeling of wanting to show off how much I was this and that. I was like, "I'll be on the other side of the room. I don't want to do that."

[29:10] Sara Jean Ford: Now, as an older woman, I'm fine saying my age as a woman in my 40s. I don't mind coming to an event and not looking like I rolled out of bed, but looking like I want to be there. I think that's okay.

[29:26] Charlie Murphy: Let's take a short break, and then I want to dive into another avenue of this.

[29:30] Sara Jean Ford: Okay, we are back with the great Sara Jean Ford. I was talking sort of almost in reverse order because we talked about the hair, and I'm so interested in the hair. I'm interested from our students' perspective because so much of what they're thinking about is, "Okay, but how do I dress? What is my thing?" I would love if we can, from the self-discovery journey perspective, explore the other side of that. The hair or the clothes or whatever is maybe a manifestation of their point of view in the world.

[30:00] Charlie Murphy: The colleges are saying, "Don't be afraid to show me who you are." Then students are like, "How do I show them who I am?" But I wonder on the flip side how they wrestle with those questions of who they are as artists. What input were you taking at 18, 19, 20, and onward? How did you wrestle with those questions of who you are as an artist and what kind of art you want to make?

[30:23] Sara Jean Ford: That's a hard question.

[30:25] Charlie Murphy: I want to hear your easy questions. Come on. We're here for the hard stuff.

[30:29] Sara Jean Ford: Sort of the inputs and how I was wrestling with owning who I was.

[30:33] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, like you talk about what kind of art you were imbibing. As you were taking classes, so much of school is technique-based. I think we're doing a lot of technique. The work they might do if they're working on singing, acting, or dancing has technique there. But the colleges are asking them about who they are, which doesn't have to do with them as an actor. It's about who this person is, and that's a shifting thing at 17.

[31:03] Sara Jean Ford: Well, I learned a lot from just watching my classmates and watching them not doubt themselves and say yes to their instincts. I remember a teacher, maybe even before I got to Carnegie, saying, "You have really good instincts." Then I started to realize that every teacher says that to every student. I thought, "Oh, it's not like I'm special for having good instincts. We all have good instincts; we just aren't trusting them." We need someone to say to us, "You have really good instincts," and your instincts are what will make you this authentic, true person that shows up to the work.

[31:44] Sara Jean Ford: A lot of what I got out of Carnegie that showed me who I was in a clear way was all the clowning and all of the commedia. For those who don't know, there is an element of stripping away to that work. It's about pulling back the masks you've been wearing and seeing the core of who you are. Does that make sense?

[32:05] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, and I mean, I came into college really physically awkward. I always felt really gawky and skinny and bony. I'm really naturally turned in, and I'm not a dancer. I'm not graceful. I feel like I'm a whole lot of weird angles. I came in, especially as a musical theater student, wanting to be a dancer and wanting to fit in as a dancer. I came in so apologetic about what my body looked like in front of everybody.

[32:41] Sara Jean Ford: I think all of the movement work we did in college really showed me that my physicality was an asset. It was a great manifestation of all the awkward weirdness happening inside of me that I was trying to put on the outside with the red hair and the tattoos. I realized that it was funny and a natural gift to my storytelling. I finally realized I don't have to apologize for all these right angles; I can own them. Being naturally turned in is kind of my thing.

[33:12] Sara Jean Ford: I can learn how to be graceful and own a long line, so it's a choice. But when it comes down to it, if I'm in a character that feels really right for me comedically, I can lean into everything that I naturally have.

[33:35] Charlie Murphy: It's so true. I think that's often the case. We do all this training, and then you kind of go back to the thing that came naturally. I was talking about Will Brill, one of my classmates. So much of the brilliant stuff he's done on Broadway, I think, "You were doing that freshman year." If anything, you went away from that, became these other things, and learned to talk like this. But it's not the same as it was freshman year; there's more underneath it, maybe.

[34:01] Sara Jean Ford: It's like you learn how to refine it or own it.

[34:05] Charlie Murphy: Let me go back even farther. Maybe I'm assuming that it's artistic input that is formative. Not to make you fully do therapy, though I'm in so much therapy right now, I'm happy to do it. But the spunky person you've described, the person inside who's saying, "I'm going to tattoo myself with this world," because "screw you, I'm not going to dress up for your parties." Where do you think that person formed from? If you arrived at that person at 17, 19, or 20, how do you think you developed that? What made that person true?

[34:51] Sara Jean Ford: I think it came from being a good little girl. I was a really good little girl. I mean, a good student, a good family member. I was raised by a single mom who was single until I was about 14. Then my stepdad came into the picture, and he's my dad now. I was a good, obedient child; I didn't get into trouble. I was the light, sweet, and funny. I never caused any trouble.

[35:28] Sara Jean Ford: I think I was also really cherished for being a voice. My vocal talent was so cherished in my family that I kind of hated it. My talent and being on top, being a winner, was very much supported, but it was almost held up so high that I think I've always had this feeling of, "No, I swear, I don't want to be hated for being so good."

[39:59] Sara Jean Ford: I have, I kind of developed a part of my personality to just always keep things very real and grounded, and not get so carried away with myself. Because I wanted to, I don't know, and I wanted to like, yeah, just like, I didn't want to just always be like the sweet girl next door. I think I had, I knew I had more to me. And I did have like a teenager inside of me that was like, "Fuck you." But I couldn't show that to anyone. And so I think like, there's like a grittiness inside of me that was always sort of wanting to come out. And I think like, yeah, I always wanted to play against this like perfect girl that I was like, sort of raised to be. I think that's at least in my discovery is so often the case that you have both sides of that dialectic in a personality.

It's sort of the thing that's true for you. And then the overcompensation of like, I was always so worried about people thinking I was cocky, you know, and part of it's being 6'4", and me, you know, and being so traditionally handsome, if I do say so myself, but that I would make a joke out of that, like that kind of thing where I'd be like, I have to like, I don't want people to think I think I'm this. So I have to like, over apologize. And then I would have this weird, like, so like, humble in my body, like, I would have all this physical, like, apology to not be able to be like, "Hey, I can just own who I am." Yeah, I called it like humble to a fault. Like, that's always what it felt like.

There feels like as you grow, there's a version and, you know, certainly some of this is easier than with other things where you can kind of embrace both of them that you're like, "Oh, because I'm like, I play cocky really well on stage. Like, I know what that is, like, I can do that." But then also being like, this other thing is also part of me, including the overcompensation, then it forms and it becomes like, "Well, that's, I'm also somebody who can do that." And it can really be meek and silly and all that, you know, that really lives in YouTube. Yeah, okay, I feel like I put you enough through the ringer of the gauntlet of who you are, the who you are conversation. We'll do more of this.

But I feel very happy with getting to explore that a little bit. Can you give us any like, Broadway audition success story? So I'd love to hear like, you know, whether it's the first Broadway audition, whether it's The Phantom, was there a moment of like, an amazing Broadway audition that you really loved?

[42:12] Sara Jean Ford: Um, I have, I mean, I have a couple. When I was like brand new in the city, I had done Wicked. I did Wicked for like seven months. And then I did it out of town in Chicago, I opened a Chicago company. And I was like, actually pretty unhappy there. There's that's a whole other story. There's a whole other podcast. But I left pretty much the minute my contract was up. I was like, peace. And I left Wicked tour. Yeah, it was the sit down company in Chicago. Yeah. So I left and I left for nothing. I had no job in New York. And I moved to New York with, you know, nothing. And I was just auditioning. And I was like, sort of like waiting for that thing to come along. And there was like one day that I had like three auditions.

And one just like didn't go my way. And I knew it wasn't going to go my way. And I had another one, I was just like, I was so tired. And I was like, "Is this really? This is really it." And I went in for Les Mis, the Les Mis revival. So this was 2007, six, six, and you can say six, seven for the kids. And I said, they said, "Okay, you know, they gave me the choice whether I wanted to audition for the Cosette understudy or the Eponine understudy." And so I was like, "Well, naturally, I want to be the Eponine understudy," like, because I don't want to be the dumb ingenue. Right. So I said, "Oh, I'm gonna, I'd like to audition for Eponine." And they said, "Okay, what are you gonna sing?" And I said, "The story goes on."

And the guy behind the table in a very droll British accent said, "Yes, the story most definitely has gone on." And I was like, "Excuse me, would you like me to not sing that song then, sir?" And he was like, "No, fine, sing it." So he was just like, such an asshole. So I sang the song. And then they were like, "Um, do you have like something like completely different in your book? Like, it says that you played Cunegunda in Candide. Do you have Glitter and Be Gay?" And I was like, "Uh huh, I do." And they were like, "Can you sing Glitter and Be Gay?" And I was like, "Yeah, I can." And they came around the, they stood up and came around in front of the table as if they were like at a show. And they were so excited that I was going to sing Glitter and Be Gay. And I sang the entire Glitter and Be Gay to them. And I put and they clapped. And I walked away. And I was like, "Well, I guess I should get that job." And then I did.

[45:05] Charlie Murphy: And you did. But as Eponine or as Cosette?

[45:08] Sara Jean Ford: Cosette.

[45:09] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I was gonna say, it sounds like they're pushing you in the other direction.

[45:11] Sara Jean Ford: Yeah. And then I, I was like, gonna do Les Mis. And I was like, that was gonna be my Broadway debut. And I was super excited. And then like, three weeks later, I got an audition for the Fantasticks revival. And I was like, "I'm gonna go in for this. And I'm gonna get it." And then I did. And I turned down Les Mis.

[45:32] Charlie Murphy: Let's go.

[45:33] Sara Jean Ford: And I was very, like, it was like, actually a hard thing to do. But now I look back and I'm like, that guy was such a dick. Like, why did he have to be like that? Um, so I was kind of like, but I never got to do Les Mis. I have still not done it.

[45:47] Charlie Murphy: So can, so can, right?

[45:48] Sara Jean Ford: I know, right?

[45:48] Charlie Murphy: Maybe one day.

[45:50] Sara Jean Ford: Yeah, I'd love to do a Fantine moment. That's a fun, I mean, that was just like a story of like, I don't know, it was like a hard time. And my story for Cats is actually better, which is that I auditioned for Cats, like multiple times. And I learned the choreography ahead of time, because I heard they were going to dance me. And so this was my third callback, they were going to dance me. And I got like a new pair of dance pants and some dance shoes, because I'm not a dancer. So I really had to like go I had to like, buy in. I got on my way out the door, my two year old daughter peed all over my new dance pants. And then my babysitter was late. And I put her and I like got onto the subway with pee, like drenched in pee.

And then I was running late, I had to get out, get in a cab, get to the audition, got to the audition, sang again. And they were like, "Okay, thank you." And I was like, "Are you going to dance me?" And they were like, "Oh, no, we haven't been dancing anybody." And I was like, "You have to dance me. I have pee all over me. Like, I bought the pants."

[46:55] Charlie Murphy: I bought these pants, and I pee all over them.

[46:57] Sara Jean Ford: And they, I did a solo dance call for Cats. And then I ran around the room, like a cat with Andy Blankenbuehler.

[47:08] Charlie Murphy: Yes.

[47:08] Sara Jean Ford: And then I got it.

[47:09] Charlie Murphy: That's amazing. That is a great story.

[47:12] Sara Jean Ford: Yeah, it's so funny. All of those like, so that is always great. The cat's like, all of the like, behind the table stuff. It's so interesting now being a little older, how I just like see that stuff differently. Also, often British directors, maybe there's a particular like drollness to Britain. I had one who spent like probably five minutes trying to convince me that he had never heard of Carnegie Mellon. Like, and I was like, but then I realized that it took me a while. But I was like, "Oh, he's joking." But I was like, earnestly being like, "Oh, yeah, it's a school in Pittsburgh. And they study drama there." And I was like, and then he's like messing with me. Right. Right. I was like, "Am I exuding something that would, you know, that made that open that up? Or what?" I kept viewing it from the perspective, like, what am I doing that is making this happen? And then you realize, like, this is just some unhappy older people.

[47:57] Charlie Murphy: Bored, tired.

[47:57] Sara Jean Ford: I'm like, that's inappropriate. You shouldn't have you don't mess with a 23 year old. That's not fair. Come on, you know, you shouldn't have done that. You shouldn't have told you the story goes on and on. I love and then what about if we're gonna check back in with the conversation? You know, now five, six Broadway shows, you mentioned a little bit of the, you know, you put the globe on yourself after booking Christine, you know, like, what do you feel like now, if we bring us up to now, like, having done all these different amazing things, having gone through that the whole hair journey, like, how would you answer that question of kind of like who you are differently? Now that you said 42?

[48:34] Sara Jean Ford: I would have said 32. Oh, no, I'm 44.

[48:34] Charlie Murphy: 44. That's what she says, allegedly. But how would you answer that question of that conversation differently now at 44?

[48:40] Sara Jean Ford: Oh, gosh. I mean, I'm still like a spitfire. Like, I think I still have that in me. But like, it's so interesting, because you know, your whole life into your in your 20s. You're just preparing for these roles that are in their 20s. You know, I mean, at least I was and I think I know some people that were like, "No, I couldn't wait to play Mrs. Lovett." You know, and, but in the 40s, like there are not that many. I mean, certainly something Elizabeth Strickland right now, she's like, not that many great lead roles for people who are above 40. I mean, it's just not. Yeah, it's like an unromantic age, I think, for writers. And, and mainly the writers are male identifying. I don't think that they romanticize a 40 year old woman often.

So yeah, and also a 40 year old woman is probably going to be a mom. And that means that there's probably going to be a kid. And if you look like a younger 40 year old woman, the kid should probably be a baby and then they have to cast a baby, you know, like, it's just like, like, there's like so many, so many things. Um, yeah, I mean, I get like, it's like interesting to just, um, I think I've, I do have like a very nurturing thing about me as a, as an actor. And I think like, playing like a caretaker is like, you know, I think I'm like, pretty, I don't know, I think I have like, that's actually something that they said to me when I got Cats, they were like, "You were such a nurturing presence."

And at the time you had a two year old daughter, and I had a two year old daughter. I guess that's, we haven't talked about that as an, I mean, for me, that was a huge identity shifter. It was kind of an identity, like, "Ow," like, there's not room for more identity in there of becoming a dad of like, it's such a big part of then the way that at least I lead in the world. I know it's true for everybody. But um, I don't know that I made space for it. But then as an actor, it just does feel like especially as a young mother, how you put that and lead with that identity and how you like, how you I guess, how did it change? Did you did the nurturing come from being a mother? Did the mothering come from being nurturing? I guess? How did you sort of deal with that?

[51:55] Sara Jean Ford: I think I was always pretty nurturing. And now I just I'm finally like, look the age that I could be to be a nurturing person. I think I was always like, really nurturing and like empathetic. And, and I, I think also, yeah, being a mom changed me made me a better actor in many ways. And that like, I just read her stories every night. And I can like, I can pick up a cold read and like, give it so much in like, two seconds. I'm like, this is why I'm like, tell my students, I'm like, read out loud, read out loud all the time. Um, I think also, I went through a divorce. And that like changed me in so many ways. As an actor, there's a whole lot of not caring what people think. Because I also went, it was not necessarily a public divorce, but it kind of was in that we were both we're both in the same industry.

And we, we not only share the child that we have, but we share the child of our industry. And we share childhoods together, and that we knew each other when we were children in college. And so I think, you know, like it, it made me not put so much care into what people think about me, I think. I think also, I just care a whole lot less about what people think. I say that, but then I care so much. But way less than I did when I was in my 20s and my 30s.

[52:27] Charlie Murphy: You guys do navigate, just from me witnessing it, you guys navigate that so beautifully. And I think that would be so hard being two people who are known in the industry. And you guys seem to navigate that so well. And, you know, and if there's such a thing as an admirable divorce couple, I think you guys are it. You're really doing it.

[52:42] Sara Jean Ford: Thank you. Yeah, yeah, we figured. But I don't know if I answered your question. I mean, like, I guess I'm just, I always would like to say, think that, like, I really want to play like a quirky aunt, you know, tarot card reading, quirky, weird.

[52:55] Charlie Murphy: That's next for you. That's next for you and Sarah Square. We're gonna, we're gonna manifest that by someone's gonna write a quirky aunt for you that you're gonna play. Do, how do you feel about, I guess, you know, having kids at a younger age, which you certainly had? I mean, you know, of course, now everyone's like, well, don't have kids if they're gonna pee on your cat's suits or whatever. But but how I mean, something I've watched, I've watched friends who are younger who do that. It seems very difficult.

[53:18] Sara Jean Ford: It shouldn't be any more so for the moms, but it does feel like it is still more so for the moms in terms of when they're a very young kid of like, how that is, how it affects the way the industry sees you, how it affects your ability to what you can do going out of town and doing all that. So how was navigating that, which is still pretty young? It was really hard. And I, you know, I was like, I was thinking about wanting kids when we had her, but I wasn't ready in my career. And I was like, really excited about what was next for my career. Because I did feel like I was like, really going somewhere. And I did feel a lot of pressure to have her and I gave in because I was married. And I am very happy that I had her but it was not my first choice.

And I felt like I gave up a lot in order to have to have her and everything felt like it stopped dead in its tracks. Yeah, I will say that, like, I think that is, I shouldn't say universal, I don't know everyone's experience. But I think most people who have kids know in this industry know it is going to affect your career doesn't have to be all negative, of course, be positive, too. But but that you go like it is a sacrifice of like, what you're giving up, you know, maybe once you're like, Alanis Morissette, and you're having kids, it's not as hard, you really can get Yeah, you know, if you're not at that place, even if you're pretty successful, it's still like a knock down the ladder and a pause.

I mean, it's really, you know, yeah, true, screwed many careers outside of this, too. But more so than if you're a lawyer more so than if you're something else. It does. Yeah. And I think where I was in my career, because I wasn't like, originating some new role where everyone saw me yet. But I was like, I was replacing a lot of lead roles. Yeah. So by the time I was I had an infant, and I was like, in the room to try to get the original part. I remember being in like, one week, going into replacing Kinky Boots, and then also to, to originate in Finding Neverland. And I, it was one week of like, those two auditions, and I had a three week old daughter, and I hadn't had any sleep. And I, I did I had and the feed, and then they gave me feedback to my agent, and my agent called me and gave me this feedback, like, you're falling flat in the room.

And I was like, of course I'm falling awake in the room. So suddenly, my auditions were, yeah, you know, affected. And then like, and then my whole career, like, just felt like it just nosedived. Like it just did. And it's, you know, it is what it is. Like, I felt like I mean, I've, that's been a very hard thing to like, to like, you know, work through, but I like did, you know, and I, and I have a 12 year old now, it's like a whole different thing, you know, different challenge and a whole different and about to be different challenges. But yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, so often, I guess this, we have a lot of parent listeners. So I like sort of trying to help a little bit of like, what will the realities of life be like for a kid who is going through this business?

And you know, plenty of our students might go to school for this, and then realize, you know what, now I'm ready to have kids and I am going to do something else. I'm not going to necessarily navigate all the way through continuing to be a professional actor while having kids. But for those who do it is, it's a challenge and something that I've gotten to witness firsthand going, that is a challenge. And, and, and I'm even able to help and support and I'm able to do this. And still, it is a challenge. It's a challenge for us all.

[57:03] Charlie Murphy: Can we talk a little bit, can you wrap me with social media? Um, you know, in terms of, I'd love to kind of hear, like, how do you think of social media in terms of, I guess, in terms of the conversation of contributing to kind of who you are and your brand and what's out there in the world. But, you know, I certainly, you know, it's one of the reasons I want to be like, Oh, I got to ask, remember to ask Sara back on the podcast is seeing the, seeing some of your posts. And I was thinking, like, how do you think of it, utility wise, as somebody who like, you know, as a Broadway person, you have more followers than the average human being, certainly, but you're also not someone who's like getting endorsement deals, I'm guessing from social media in terms of just, you know, numbers. But so how do you think of like, the way to use social media as consumption as advertisement, all that stuff for yourself?

[57:43] Sara Jean Ford: That's interesting. Um, I feel like social media, like really kind of blew up. Um, kind of like after I did like Cats, like, it got like way and so but but it's funny, because I was putting out all these like videos backstage. And I was like, creating all this like funny content. And it didn't in that world in that time, it didn't really like, take off. I also didn't get like, it wasn't like now it's like you join the cast of something and you get like a million followers just from being in that cast. So I like it today. Yeah, like, yeah, exactly. So like, um, so like, while I do have more followers than like my friend back home in California, like, I don't, you know, like, it's not that many.

It's right. It doesn't seem like you're like, I'm trying to attract young people necessarily in my thing. It seems like it's more. It seemed more geared toward toward me, you know, toward a colleague or to a contemporary, contemporary, you know, as opposed to like, but I guess what is there? Is it just like, this is how I want to use it? Or is there any, like, hey, this is how I think? I mean, you know, like, there's no denying that like, there is a publicity, you can use it for publicity, you know, matters. And honestly, because I'm a writer, I am therefore by proxy, a producer. And so I have to be, I have to be on it, to some degree to like, then push my art out into the world. And so like, anything that's like personal that I share, which I do share, personally, it always sort of like happens by accident that it like, ends up being any sort of like, that people like respond to it, you know, something.

And I think I do find that like, the things that people respond to the most are the, the really authentic, vulnerable things that I put out. And, and it's interesting, because I think as a creator who's like, in her 40s, and, you know, I'm interested in creating like, sort of longer form art, you know, plays and musicals and movies and TV shows, like, that's like, that's where my writer brain is now steering. And it's not steering in the direction of let me put out this like, short form content. It just, it actually is like, that's not that I take that back. I because if I'm scrolling a lot, my brain automatically just like starts creating for the, you know, the thing in front of me, like it just like, I'm always coming up with ideas.

It's just a matter of where I want to place my energy. And I don't always want to place my energy into my social media stuff. And so I really have to like, it's a constant battle for me, because I'm like, especially as a coach, and like wanting to like, make my coaching business be bigger. I think that's actually a very good place to try to get it, you know, moving, proven. But again, it's like the energy of that, versus the energy of me sitting down and actually writing, like a piece.

[1:00:56] Charlie Murphy: And what you're writing now is like, is this the aging ingenue? Is that that's something that you're currently producing? Or that's already?

[1:01:00] Sara Jean Ford: No, aging ingenue. She's, she's done. She's out. What are you working on now?

[1:01:05] Sara Jean Ford: Um, I well, my husband and I wrote a short film that we filmed last year, exactly at this time. And we're in post for that, that will then move on into it. And I'm not in it, we actually just wrote it together. And we filmed it. And we have a Carnegie Mellon grad, two Carnegie Mellon grads in there, though. Brian Morabito, and Kristalyn Lloyd. I know both those people. Yeah. So it was kind of fun to have two Carnegie Mellon grads in there. So we're in post for that right now. We're final edits and figuring out. Then from there, we'll do the whole film festival world, which is very foreign to me, but not foreign to my writing partner. So there's that. And then we also filmed another piece called Broadway Radio Hour, which is sort of a, it's a, it's a bigger project that we wanted to figure out how to sell.

And we kind of created a like a long form infomercial about it. And we, it's huge. It has like 12 people in it and songs and dances and all sorts of things. And it's ultimately be a Netflix flick series to ultimately be a web series. What do you think? We wrote it as a stage play, and it still could live as a stage play. But when we filmed it, when we got in the studio, and we saw this thing up on the screen, we were like, this is a, this could be a streaming kind of sitch. This is it's really cool. And it's like a 1940s radio hour, but set all in modern day. So yeah, like that, that's kind of where we're at with that. I do really wonder if like, you know, so many people, I'm certainly not innovative in talking about it this way.

But like the idea of what is 10 years from now, what our digital content that we're consuming is, given how much now people it's YouTube and TikTok, and it's almost beating TV now. And so you sort of go like, would that not just change the nature of like, what, what a series is, you know, what we start, you know, 20 years ago, 15 years ago, we started doing web series is which feel like they became their own little niche, different thing. But there is now it's like, whether it's a series or not, there's so much content consumed in these 60 second or five minute chunks.

[1:03:15] Charlie Murphy: Yes. Yeah, time, big time. All right. That is another podcast, though. Let's move to wrapping up with just, you know, I know you've already made you go deep into therapy and deep into all these questions of who you are. But I wonder, you know, if there's just any advice to especially pitch toward our 17, 18 year old listeners, but I guess also to those out of college just who are on that self discovery journey, any advice in terms of like, what you would advise them if they want, they want to try to, you know, do the things you did well and not do the things you didn't do well, if they want to be a Sara Jean Ford, how do they do that?

[1:03:41] Sara Jean Ford: Yeah, I mean, I always when when young kids say like, Oh, I want to be you when I grow up. I'm like, No, you want to be you. I mean, like, I'm friends with like, you know, your wife, I'm friends with Sutton Foster. I'm friends with like, all these like, super fancy people. And I, I can't, there's no way one way to model my, my, my career after their career, you know, everybody's just all so singular, and so specific to the person. I think my advice is like, you know, always to get out of your own way and figure out how you're getting in your own way, is like a big one. And I would hear that a lot in college, like, Oh, she's getting in her own way. And I'd be like, Okay, what does that mean? But nowadays, I see how I get in my own way.

And like, really, really simple, easy examples are just like, you know, oh, I'm like, the only reason you know, like, I'm never gonna get that job because I'm too old, or I'm never gonna get that job because I'm too young, or they're just like, you know, I'm never gonna get that job, because they already cast it with this name, and this name, and this name, and this name, you know, like, just coming up with reasons as to why I'm not working, just like really unhelpful. It's just like, it's really, it's, it's like negative based thinking. And it's like self soothing, it forgives yourself, or it's okay, that I didn't, I don't have to try my hardest to do my best, because I'm too fat for this role anyway.

So I'll just move on. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, comparing myself to other people, and, and the worst is when I compare myself to people that are working, and I'm like, but I'm better than them. Like, how does that get me anywhere? Like, it just doesn't. And I'm not being happy for my friends when they get jobs, you know, like, seeing that, like, my first instinct is that I'm like, mad. Okay, let's look at that instinct. Like, what are you mad about? Like, what do you really want, Sarah? Like, what do you really want? So just like little things like that, like, getting in a good head space to just like, be in this industry. That that's one. And then, I guess, another thing I would say is, I don't know, find your find your people.

Like, find your find your, your people find your culture of people and, and make sure that they're all of the same like mind that like, I keep you positive and want to, and want to like move forward together. You know, I'm like, very lucky that I found some people in in this industry that like, think the way I think and like, don't go down that dark road, because they would lead me down there. I think that I think those two things do relate to each other a lot. The finding your community that will say, Hey, Sarah, cut that out. Like if that's if that is what

[1:07:07] Charlie Murphy: Welcome back to Mapping The College Audition. Today, we have a very special guest, Sara Jean Ford, who is known for her incredible work in Broadway's The Phantom of the Opera.

[1:07:37] Sara Jean Ford: Thank you so much for having me, Charlie. I'm excited to be here and talk about the aging ingenue and what that means in the context of auditions and performance.

[1:08:07] Charlie Murphy: Absolutely. It's such an interesting topic, especially as we see the landscape of musical theater evolving. How do you think the concept of the ingenue has changed over the years?

[1:08:37] Sara Jean Ford: I think it's become more nuanced. The ingenue used to be a very specific type, but now there's a broader range of characters that fit that mold. It's not just about age; it's about the depth of the character and the story they tell.

[1:09:07] Charlie Murphy: That's a great point. So, when you're coaching students or working with them on their auditions, how do you encourage them to embrace their individuality?

[1:09:33] Sara Jean Ford: I always tell them that showing colleges who you are isn’t a gimmick. It's about authenticity. You want to bring your true self to the audition, and that means being honest about your experiences and your artistry.

[1:09:53] Charlie Murphy: Yes, authenticity is key. How do you think students can grow as artists by letting go of the need to force their performances?

[1:10:13] Sara Jean Ford: Growth comes from allowing yourself to be vulnerable. When you stop trying to fit into a mold and instead focus on what you genuinely want to express, that’s when the magic happens.

[1:10:41] Charlie Murphy: That's such a valuable lesson. Diversifying your inputs is also important. What are some ways you suggest students can do that?

[1:11:09] Sara Jean Ford: I encourage them to read plays, watch great work, and listen widely. The more you expose yourself to different styles and stories, the richer your own artistry becomes.

[1:11:37] Charlie Murphy: That's excellent advice. Self-discovery is such a crucial part of the audition process. How do you think students can approach that?

[1:12:05] Sara Jean Ford: Self-discovery is the real audition. It’s about knowing what you know, what you want to say, and the stories only you can tell. That clarity will shine through in your performances.

[1:12:29] Charlie Murphy: Absolutely. It’s about finding your voice. What do you think are some common misconceptions students have about the audition process?

[1:12:57] Sara Jean Ford: Many students think they need to be perfect or fit a certain image. But the truth is, colleges are looking for potential and authenticity, not just a polished performance.

[1:13:25] Charlie Murphy: That’s a refreshing perspective. How can students prepare themselves mentally for the pressures of auditions?

[1:13:53] Sara Jean Ford: Mental preparation is key. I suggest practicing mindfulness techniques, visualization, and even journaling about their experiences and feelings. It helps to ground them.

[1:14:21] Charlie Murphy: Those are fantastic strategies. What role do you think feedback plays in a student’s growth during this process?

[1:14:49] Sara Jean Ford: Feedback is essential. It’s important for students to seek constructive criticism and to learn how to process it. It can help them refine their craft and understand different perspectives.

[1:15:17] Charlie Murphy: I completely agree. What advice would you give to students who might feel discouraged during their audition journey?

[1:15:45] Sara Jean Ford: I would tell them to remember that every audition is a learning experience. Rejection is part of the process, and it doesn’t define their worth as artists. Keep pushing forward and stay true to yourself.

[1:16:13] Charlie Murphy: That’s such an important reminder. As we wrap up, what final thoughts do you have for students preparing for their college auditions?

[1:16:41] Sara Jean Ford: Embrace who you are and trust your journey. The right program will see your unique qualities and help you grow as an artist.

[1:17:09] Charlie Murphy: Thank you so much, Sara. This has been an enlightening conversation, and I’m sure our listeners will take away so much from it.

[1:17:37] Sara Jean Ford: Thank you for having me, Charlie. It’s been a pleasure to share my thoughts and experiences.

[1:18:05] Charlie Murphy: And to our listeners, if you have any questions about the college audition process, feel free to reach out to us at mailbag@mappingthecollegeaudition.com.

[1:18:33] Charlie Murphy: Until next time, keep exploring your artistry and stay true to yourself.