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[0:10] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping the College Audition. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, Director of MTCA. That's Musical Theatre College Auditions. Check us out at mtca.com. And today we have our third and final episode in our special series on Showcasing Showcases. This is the third of three for this year, which again is not to say that I won't do more in future years if you love them. Any feedback, you can always let us know at mailbag at mappingthecollegeaudition.com. That's mailbag at mappingthecollegeaudition.com. Or you can leave us feedback directly via rating review. We always love a rating review on any of your podcast platforms. You could do it via social media comment, however you'd like to let us know how you're feeling.

But again, I preface these interviews with a big intro of what it is and what it isn't. We're giving you a look at various different kinds of showcases with a more traditional in-person experience in New York City with Carnegie Mellon, a virtual focus showcase with Wright State, and then ending here with one of the versions of a fun creative showcase for Northern Michigan. Even though, as you've heard and you'll continue to hear, many different fun creative versions of how schools have done. And then, as I mentioned, you know, Northern Michigan was part of my inspiration for doing this. You know, I've had this idea on the back burner for years, I think for two or three years. But when Bill Dignite from Northern Michigan, when he invited me to be part of their showcase experience, I let that inspire me to actually kick off this series with those potential additional episodes in the future.

So thank you to Bill. If you're wondering why this happened, it's because of the first invite made me go, all right, I'm doing it this year for the first time. And to that end, this is mostly going to be an exploration of what they're doing specifically at Northern Michigan. I'm going to try to hold most of my review and what you're going to hear about to that. But the way that Wright State might inspire you to think about kind of all different kinds of digital or virtual showcases and how they might look like, at least an example of it, I might let this episode be a stand-in for kind of two different categories of showcase options in 2026. Even though, of course, each showcase is its own unique experience, and this is certainly a very unique experience with this school, right?

But those categories of what you might let this be a stand-in for, I would loosely call the, like, invite to campus style of showcasing, even though, of course, we're not literally at campus on Mackinac Island here, but invite to Michigan, invite to campus there, and then as well as, like, a creative brand of showcasing alternative forms kind. So those are the two different, like, kind of categories or labels that this might fit into, which other schools might also share versions of, right? And, of course, this, as I mentioned, this school itself doesn't fall neatly into either category, since we weren't technically on Northern Michigan's campus, though we got a sense of it with the two-legged flight.

It certainly counts as them traveling us in. And then also their creative brand of thing doesn't necessarily typify the most common version of what I call these creative showcases, right? The most typical version of the, you know, the creative brand of showcases and non-traditional brand of showcases that you've heard of examples of many times on the school episodes would be some version of inviting a series of agents, managers, casting directors, some kind of industry representation to campus to do a series of master classes and work with students. This could be a long series, like once a month throughout senior year, or it could be more surrounding singular showcase event, right? This also could happen alongside a traditional showcase, right?

I know that, like, Carnegie Mellon brought a series of guests for us to work with individually each month of our senior year, including people like Jordan Thaler, who is the casting director for the public, as well as guest directors, alumni actors, all these different people they'd bring in, and then also did a showcase, right? So all the different versions that can possibly happen are out there. It's not, there's no way to get all, neatly categorize all of them, right? And then for the latter, that can really take on a number of different forms through different schools, right? If we're talking about these creative city trips and how they could go, whether it's New York City or not, right?

You've heard a lot of different examples of schools who do that, whether they outsource that showcase organizational responsibility, like we just talked about with West Virginia, maybe to a different company or to a single casting director or however they do that, or they organize it themselves with contacts that they may have, right? If they were recently out of the industry, they may know how to invite their own agents or invite their own managers or those kind of things. This is like the example where Wright State, they're paying individual industry members to be there, nominally to teach, but to ensure that those people are connected and participating with the showcase experience, right?

This is, in general, I think a kind of example of a market correction to the fact that so many schools were offering up open showcases that a lot of them were really poorly attended. You've heard a lot of schools talk about that, right? And that could be poorly attended because you got someone's assistant or just because they didn't come at all, right? So the gamble school started making was rather than send out a hundred invites and not getting a lot of good bites back, what if we invite five people or ten people or whatever it is, invite a number of people, pay them, but then they're going to directly work with our students and hopefully make a stronger connection by having them directly work and interact with our students, right?

So it's like a few really good bites at an apple is better than a lot of bobs that don't even make any connection, right? And here, NMU really does typify that experience to the extreme in that they're not just inviting them in for a day of a workshop in New York City, they are trapping these five apples on an island with no way off, right? And I'll say this one more thing before I dive into the NMU specific review itself and then, of course, like these other episodes, you're going to hear interviews with our students and faculty and then you'll see some clips from the showcase itself, which is just that in general, for newbies to this process, I think parents and students tend to overrate the overall idea of reputation as a whole and underrate the specifics of alumni networks.

I'll try to get a little bit more specific about what I mean. You know, this is kind of a different point than the idea of like a hundred weak bites versus five strong bites, but a related one in terms of the way the bites happen, right? The idea that like a stranger who has no connection to a school is going to be incredibly discerning between what they personally perceive as the ninth best school versus the 16th best school, that's just not really something that happens. That's not the way that it happens, right? Not only do those ranking lists not really exist in industry members' heads, they're not thinking that way since they're not obsessed with college the way that we all are, right? If you're interested in a longer conversation about this, please do check out my blog podcast episode about top schools that go into some of the ranking lists and how they're made and all that kind of stuff.

But it's also, I think the bigger thing, it's just not going to be that relevant to their decision-making process in terms of what they need to know about someone, right? I mean there may be a few names at the top of some people's list that can actively get you in the door with a stranger, I think that does happen, and then there likely is a distinction in their head between like a training program that they've heard of and one they haven't, but much more beyond that is unlikely in the case of most casting directors, agents, industry representatives, right? However, what is much more distinct between these programs are the specific human beings with specific connections that you're going to have, right?

This is often true in terms of like alumni networks themselves, but it also can be represented in the kind of faculty who will actively facilitate connections. And there are just, there are so many different iterations here, and it's a much longer episode that I could talk about nothing but this, but I just think it's a conclusion worth remembering, if you're a newbie to this process, is that it should be less about the idea of some general reputation, how good is this school in the minds of everybody, right? And more about specific pathways to jobs that you might get from specific alumni networks and institutional structures, right? I gave an example earlier in this podcast that Jordan Thaler is someone who cast me in Shakespeare in the Park, he didn't bring me in because he saw Carnegie Mellon on my resume, he brought me in because he'd specifically seen me perform at Carnegie Mellon, right?

And so whether that's from a showcase or a classroom experience or whatever the combination is, it all counts as coming from a specific human being, and that's true with a lot of alumni situations. It's not so much that the entire industry is going to view one school one way and one school another way, as it is that like specific agencies might have a strong connection with the school, whether that's because of past alumni success from that agency or a connection with a faculty member or a connection with a specific agent, right? And those connections are going to help you get your foot in the door. And I say foot in the door so much because really that's all this idea of reputation or school difference is really going to do for you, if we're being honest, right?

You're not getting cast in a show because of the school you went to, right? The director is going to cast the human being they want when they see them in front of them, but you might have easier access to an opportunity, maybe you get to go to an audition without having to go to an EPA early in your career because of a specific connection that helps you jump a step. That's the same idea as why you want an agent. An agent can potentially get you in and give you a little bit of an access, but that's still just about a foot in the door. Beyond that, it is always going to be you, the artist, who actually books the job, which of course is also why we always emphasize quality of training and which school we think is going to make you a better artist in four years over the perception of reputation.

That's all to say not that reputation doesn't matter, it's not that it's nothing, but that I do think parents and students tend to overblow the idea of generalized reputation and undercount the idea of like, what kind of artist am I going to be four years later? And also, again, we're talking about here, more about the specific connections of where will I be connected from this school rather than about like, I'll be set up for success from this school and totally not from this school. Okay, I have to stop there because I could do like another 60 minutes on just this idea and breaking down all the different versions of it and I have to actually get into my Northern Michigan review, which is what we're here for today.

I do include that because I think it's hard to accurately review this particular showcase without talking a little bit about reputation, reputation of this specific school, but also reputation of an emerging school in general and how rapidly reputation can shift and how much it should matter or factor in. So that's why I wanted to give that a little bit as a preview before I dive in. Okay, so my review of Northern Michigan itself. I think from the moment you meet Bill, whether it's at PUA, whether it's viewing his podcast episode, for those who watch his podcast episode, or if you're lucky enough to catch him in person in Michigan, you can feel this human being and you may feel this from the videos here.

This person's a mover and a shaker, right? He is going to work to significantly elevate the reputation of Northern Michigan and I think he's a smart leader who's capable of making that happen. Now, of course, that's not a guarantee of success in NMU's reputational growth, as we often talk about, but I think it can be a key factor when you're talking about taking a bet on an emerging program. Like with a young business and an inspiring CEO, you want an exciting product and that might help you make that early investment, hoping it's really going to pay dividends later, right? Of course, we always talk about the risk too. We don't know for sure that Bill will be there forever, so you never want to put all your money on one specific person, right?

But I think it was obvious with what he's built, including the other faculty that you're going to meet in this episode. You're going to see later on, I was able to interview both James Ludwig, who's the head of the acting BFA program and really intimately involved with the musical theater students as well, and then his wife, Kristen Beth Williams, who directed the showcase. I think both are dynamic and infectious and clearly highly connected to the industry and you'll hear some of that. For older people like me, if you know the musical John and Jen, James was the original John in John and Jen, so my 16-year-old musical theater heart went to flutter when I heard that. I went, oh my gosh, I've listened to you on cast recordings.

And then KB has this outstanding Broadway resume and very active career, so you can see in their activeness in the business is paying off dividends in the people that they're able to access and bring in, in terms of their specific cast and director connections. And that is not true of every emerging program to the same extent, though I do think it's worth noting of like, that's the kind of thing, if you're an emerging program, do you have that kind of those connection pathways so that you're going to be able to work your way into the industry. And I say all these positive things to also point out that in this specific class of students I met, I do think there was a distinct and notable difference in the level of the preparation for the industry that I saw versus some of the examples in the preceding two showcases.

And again, this is where it's not exactly fair in that I'm trying to show you diversity of the landscape, but I am comparing a most competitive program, a competitive program, and an emerging program and trying to compare them all to each other. You know, it can feel a bit like comparing D1 and D2 and D3 athletes, right? It is, of course, not nearly as simple as that, as an athletics metaphor when you talk about theater. And while I really like the idea of showing a few different kinds of showcases in a few different places on the landscape, I don't want this to feel like a comparison between the three programs and from a quality perspective. That said, just as a sort of neutral arbiter, I don't want to ignore the fact that if I'm doing an honest review here, the quality of student preparedness here was not as high as I saw in the other two showcases.

Now, I want to caveat that with a few things. First, I am very specifically commenting on the level of readiness and preparation to enter the industry and not on the talent and potential of these students. I saw a lot of really talented students. They were just in a bit more of a raw place at 22 than some of their peers. It's also worth noting that a large part of that rawness I didn't necessarily experience as a lack of technical skill, but it may have been a little bit more about a maturity and approach to the world and like what this industry was going to be, right? On the college audition side of things, we often call this bucket like the psychological preparedness for your audition tour.

Were you ready to be in that leaned in place? And I felt like to a number of these students in their interactions, it felt like New York City or Chicago or wherever they're planning on going still felt like a million miles away to some of them, right? And even to some of those students, I point this out, who had tremendous vocal talent. And there were a few I thought had tremendous vocal talent. There was like a little bit of a feeling of like, aw shucks here, kind of a Midwestern sense, maybe of aw shucks, as opposed to a sincere belief that like, I'm talented enough to succeed. I'm going to go hit the ground running and I'm going to go attack New York City or go attack Chicago, whatever it is, right?

Again, maybe that is Midwestern niceness coming out. Maybe that's kind of infecting them, right? But there is this like extra quality that I think you need entering this industry of self-belief that you can beat the odds. And many young students don't necessarily have the fullness of that self-belief at 22. I think that's a lot to expect when you graduate, but to varying degrees, you have to have that sense that you're going to jump into the arena and attack it. And with some of these students, I was left wondering if that was going to be the case. And again, we talk about the balance of you also need humility too. You can't be like, I'm the greatest and don't need any notes here. And let's

[14:42] Charlie Murphy: You may be to say caveats over back to the review itself, in which I want to focus more on the structures and what is offered then I'm not going to dive too much deeper into the students themselves.

[15:12] Charlie Murphy: From a structural perspective, I have to say, I was blown away by the showcase. I thought it was so cool. I thought it was an incredibly classy experience for the faculty and industry representatives in terms of what the sort of, it was kind of bougie and what we were offered, and a really wonderful time on the Island itself.

[15:43] Charlie Murphy: How we flew in, we ferry over together, we eat all the meals together as faculty and students, we teach classes to the students, we then watch all the other faculties' classes, and then we view the showcase. It really puts the industry reps in an amazing headspace. I mean, I could not have been rooting harder for those students. By the time I sat in the auditorium to watch the actual show, they felt like MTCA students.

[16:08] Charlie Murphy: Of course, none of these students I had any connection with before the week, but I was there going, go, good luck, you can do it. And it's funny because I actually, I happened to watch the actual Wright State showcase virtually while I was in Mackinac Island itself. So that distinction was really elevated for me in the difference of my experience, the difference of my experience of the connection I felt to the students who I was eating with, teaching class to, getting to know on a deeper level.

[16:29] Charlie Murphy: And I will say, from a manipulative perspective with the time spent with the students, it really worked, right? I have these specific memories from more of these kids than I do with either of the two previous showcases that I saw, purely on the merits of time I was forced to spend with these students, right?

[16:45] Charlie Murphy: And the other thing I'll note about the showcase structure and the students themselves before I dive into the show, which I will talk about here in a second, is that I was really impressed with the overall quality of openness that I experienced from the whole student population. And I think that goes hand in hand with the level of self-belief that they were leaning in with.

[17:01] Charlie Murphy: I think the sort of positive other side of that is there was a real humility and openness, right? They were there. They were ready to learn. They were open to feedback. They were open to experiences. They felt very aware of what they perceived as the daunting task of jumping from Northern Michigan to Broadway, for those of whom that was a goal. That was not true. You'll hear some of these student experiences that wasn't necessarily exactly what they were going for out of school.

[17:24] Charlie Murphy: But they also felt really open to whatever it was, whatever we thought it was going to take for them to get there. They felt like, OK, give it to me, right? You know, and again, I'm just going to note, I think it is the flip side of that comment about their feeling of preparedness. If they were not sharply honed, and I feel like maybe not all the students were sharply honed, they felt open to the shaping.

[17:46] Charlie Murphy: I think that wasn't something that just happened. I think that was a conscious approach that I think the faculty at NMU was trying to give them. And again, that's not in a general, oh, they were open to feedback and they were loose. Their openness was active and conscious.

[18:04] Charlie Murphy: Especially when we talk about the meals and stuff, they had to get up there and network with us actively. There was an active way that you could tell some of them had been prepared and were ready to walk up to us and talk to us. As we're walking to class, they're going to be asking questions. And they really felt like they had been trained on networking really well and were really open to it.

[18:28] Charlie Murphy: They were ready. They were willing. They were eager to do it. It's a really endearing human quality that I think a lot of non-performers really struggle with and lose pretty quickly in their lives. Just that ability to walk up to somebody and start a conversation. And I think a lot of performers can be a little bit too cool for school with it and not able to do that. And boy, is it an important quality to have as a professional.

[18:51] Charlie Murphy: So they all, I thought, felt professionally ready and able to do that, ready and willing to walk up, have a conversation, make a connection. And I think maybe especially after so many years of being around kind of some of the more slick networking and some of the more sort of game playing networking that can be such a part of New York City. And I know this happens in Hollywood as well. The lack of slickness was really refreshing.

[19:16] Charlie Murphy: I really enjoyed the experience of it, even if I was like, all right, well, we're going to need a little bit more, a little bit less openness and a little bit less rawness as you move forward. And again, even in describing some of the rawness, I will also say that I don't think it was like a naiveness. I sensed a lot of grit from these students. They knew it was going to take hard work and grit to make a life in this business. And they felt prepared to do that work.

[19:47] Charlie Murphy: I mean, not all of them, as you'll hear, each student is a little bit different. Some of them are choosing to actively pursue this art form and some say, no, I was getting this degree because I want to teach or I'm not sure what I want to do. I want to do other things. It seemed like about half and half from the students I talked to of whether they were actually pursuing this professionally or not. But for those who were, you felt that desire and that grit that was underneath their kindness and their openness.

[20:14] Charlie Murphy: OK, let's get into the show itself, which I'm unsurprised I'm getting to so late in my review, since in the structure of this showcase experience, it ended up falling much later and was a much smaller part of the showcase than some of the other schools. So not surprising that I'm getting to the show later because the show was I'd already spent three days with these kids before I was actually getting to the show.

[20:34] Charlie Murphy: And in keeping with that, I will also say it felt like the goals of this show were a bit different than the feeling of a traditional showcase. It wasn't all about impressing these five industry representatives that were in town to see the show, nor was this showcase itself the be all end all of the week. It felt like it was just a small part of the week that, hey, we're going to get together and do a show.

[20:55] Charlie Murphy: Right. And even in the structure of the show itself, I would say the aims of it. And you'll hear KB talk about this. The aims of it in being kind of a capstone experience for the senior performers was a lot of a lot greater part of it than a lot of the school's professional showcase experiences. I mean, some of that you'll see in this show was very long for a showcase. Right. The scenes were long. The songs were long. Everyone got a lot to do.

[21:20] Charlie Murphy: You know, compared to some of those quick cuts that you're going to see in a virtual showcase, but even in a live New York City showcase where you're seeing really efficient one minute scenes and 90 second scenes. This felt kind of joyful and indulgent. Right. And again, I think the quick cuts are there for a reason. If you're talking to an industry viewer who's going to see four showcases that day or four showcases that week or whatever it is, you've got to give them a little bit more of an efficient experience.

[21:44] Charlie Murphy: But here the context was really different. Right. And specifically, you know, you see some of this, but the showcase started with two group numbers. It ended with a group number. There was a sword fight at the showcase. I don't think I've ever seen a sword fight in a showcase. The whole thing felt very celebratory. Right. The actors were singing alongside the MTs. And I have to say, I think the actor sounded great across the board.

[22:06] Charlie Murphy: You're going to hear me complimenting Donna, one of the vocal teachers. And we did a later interview just about the excellent vocal instruction that she must have done in everyone singing at this level, given that there was not a lack of barrier to entry, certainly for the actors. But even for the MTs, it was not a high level barrier of entry. So given the vocal quality I saw, it was really impressive. Right.

[22:26] Charlie Murphy: And the show was also, I would say, more than other showcases, more theatrically focused than the average showcase. Right. Maybe because we were on a stage in a giant auditorium as opposed to some of these small black box theaters in New York City or a soundstage. But it just it allowed everything to feel bigger. Right. In a way that I think when you're being looked at industry reps that are mostly going to focus on like big money makers, which is going to be TV and film especially.

[22:50] Charlie Murphy: And then maybe Broadway. Right. This felt like maybe the aim of this, because some of the people viewing it might be more about regional theater directors or those kind of things, which I know that's what some of the industry reps were. But also maybe some of the goals of some of their students, it felt a little bit more theatrical in terms of what it might be going for. Right.

[23:07] Charlie Murphy: And again, I mentioned the vocal side of things. I don't want to escape by the vocal talent because I think I will say not that this is what it's about. I heard the best single vocalist of the three showcases that I heard was at this showcase. So that's why I'm being very careful when I'm talking about evaluating the idea of talent, that I'm not talking about a purely talent perspective, not talking about a technical perspective.

[23:29] Charlie Murphy: And that may be confusing to some of you. Some of you may be like, well, is it about better? Is it about worse? What are you trying to say here? Right. I will just say I think the reason it's important to talk about rawness or preparation is it is just not the case that the industry naturally finds the most talented people on earth and then just puts them on Broadway.

[23:48] Charlie Murphy: The same way that I mentioned this incredible vocal talent that I heard here at North Michigan, one of the best voices I've heard in my life, equally talented as any Tony winning Broadway voice you've heard, was while Elizabeth and I were sheltering during COVID in this tiny town of Grand Lake, Colorado. There was this young man who had done a few things professionally. I think at one point he even toured as one of the phantoms of the opera. But he found himself back in Grand Lake working at a bar and just a grown out a mountain man beard. And to my knowledge, that's where he is.

[24:15] Charlie Murphy: And now, you know, years later, he's left that down. Right. There's just like so many factors that go into achieving success in this industry. But if you'd asked me to line up like all vocal talent that I've ever heard, I would put him up there with any of my most talented classmates, any of the most amazing Broadway performers I've heard, which is all a way of saying talent isn't everything.

[24:34] Charlie Murphy: I saw some real talent this night in northern Michigan. There's no doubt about it. Right. But then also some of the people who are performing, as you'll hear, we're not necessarily planning on pursuing a performing career. And that was evident in the showcase too, that this was not just about, hey, all of these people are about to become professional actors. And because of that context, which is different than the context you're going to hear in the preceding two showcases, it does give it a bit more of like a high school theater or community theater kind of feel because you would see these extraordinary gem performances and then you would see some stuff that was really not at the same level.

[25:17] Charlie Murphy: Right. And again, compared to the other showcases, even where there are standouts at the other showcases, which would happen, the delta between those amazing standouts and the other things you see was not normally so large at a showcase. And it does kind of change the way that you view a showcase. Right. And honestly, I felt the same exact thing in my classwork with them, which was a big part of the showcase.

[25:31] Charlie Murphy: So I'm going to talk about that too, that like the classwork itself was more time you're spending with them than you are on that showcase night. I mean, I thoroughly enjoyed getting to teach a monologue class to all these students. A lot of the students did Shakespeare because I kind of dared them to. I said, if you want to do Shakespeare, I love working on Shakespeare, but plenty of contemporary monologues as well.

[25:49] Charlie Murphy: I saw some students who were significantly less prepared in their work than the average MTCA student at 17, 18, you know, on this day. Right. As a junior, if I were meeting them at a junior workshop that I saw somewhere, I go, oh, this is less prepared than the average 17, 18 year old. And I saw some Shakespeare that was at a truly professional level. So, again, it was just that this large delta where you go, wow. I mean, some of it was really there and some of it was really not. Right.

[26:05] Charlie Murphy: And then a few students that fell in between. Some really had these flashes of great potential and great talent. You go, oh, absolutely. That's in there. And then they might just be missing a little bit of the self-belief that they can do it like we talked about. Or they may be missing something else. Technically, we go, you have this, but not quite quite this yet. Right.

[26:20] Charlie Murphy: And again, I think I probably made this point enough to keep beating it over the head, beating a dead horse or whatever I'm doing it. But it's an incredibly difficult thing to balance. I keep talking about self-belief. But you need to have this openness to experience that allows you to actively learn and grow throughout your time in this business. But especially as you're emerging at 22, there's something so important about like when you're out in the world, you got to be the one who goes, I can walk in that room and say, I should book this part. Right. That you're the company that is selling something. You think I have something extraordinary to sell and that people will be interested in.

[27:12] Charlie Murphy: And that's a beautiful balance for drama school to help you toward that, because we need to open all the way through drama school and you have to maintain a certain level of openness. But then also an ability that when you actually get on the world, that it can't be just like, what do you think I should do? You have to be able to be like, I think I can do this. And I think I'm going to walk in that room and book that part. Right.

[27:31] Charlie Murphy: And again, I really say all of that as you look at these clips and you kind of check out these interviews and the stuff that's about you're about to see just to kind of try to help give you a little bit of a worldview and kind of imagine this structure that what you've seen also in a world where NMU is graduating, let's say this year's freshman class who they have more heavily recruited. Right. I want to be really careful. And the reason I'm using so many words to say this is I do not want to dismiss the school's current population, who, again, I loved and found extraordinary in their own way. And I really enjoyed meeting.

[27:58] Charlie Murphy: But just to note, because I think it's important in this case of this school and a lot of emerging schools, that the showcase will look very different when it's more than 13 total students, of which maybe six or seven are actively going to be pursuing performing directly than it is now. Right. The structure is absolutely there from what we've seen and is well in place for this kind of student. And now I think it's going to be really interesting in the next few years to see how that manifests it out there in the world. In the same way we talked about with Vicky with Oberlin. Of course, she's doing a great job with that first class of students.

[28:14] Charlie Murphy: All right. That was a long review. I hope you enjoyed that. Let's dive into the showcase and to the interview and all that beautiful stuff that we got. I'm not sure how many clips we're going to end up including of me. I mean, I took a ton of clips, but I'm not sure how many we're going to end up including of me.

[28:33] Charlie Murphy: I mean, I took a ton of clips of me in the airport and on the ferry, but if we do include all those, I hope you enjoy that silly journey that I took. It is quite a trip to get to Northern Michigan, I will say, but well worth it for those who are interested in visiting that gorgeous island.

[28:56] Charlie Murphy: Of course, I got to see it in the summer, so it was especially beautiful at that moment, and I will say we just finished the last of the fudge. We bought some fudge at Mackinac Island, which is one of its, I don't know, one of its trademarks or whatever, but if you're watching the video, hopefully you'll get a few glimpses of the amazing views. It really is a beautiful experience. If not, just Google it. You can Google Mackinac Island. Sometimes it's Mackinac, sometimes it's Mackinaw.

[29:18] Charlie Murphy: Anyway, here I am rambling. I told you I was going to end this thing, so I hope you're as delighted as I was by all that following.

[29:25] Charlie Murphy: Perfectly fitted into the two hours that I've been in Minneapolis, and now I'm heading back into Eastern time for Northern Michigan. For our East Coasters, it's very confusing where in the Midwest is Central versus where is Eastern? So how did I go to Central to get back to Eastern? Very confusing to all of you. I'm really excited for this one, you know, one of the cool things about this showcase, and we'll talk about some of the specifics of it, is they're inviting guests not just to view the showcase but also to do some classes. So I'm gonna get you some classes with the Northern Michigan students and also get to see beautiful Mackinac Island. Now I've heard Mackinac Island is amazing. I've seen photos.

We're gonna see whether it's worth the two-hour layover and the double the two—the transfer. What's it called when you have two legs of a flight? Is it worth the two-leg flight? Stay tuned to this channel to find out. Okay, here we are. I'm gonna try to say this name as Salt Sant Marie. Don't know if I've ever been at the airport before, but this is a slightly smaller airport. I'm about to show you the entirety of the baggage claim. It's a slightly different experience than what we had at LaGuardia. Okay, here we are with our Uber driver head of the program. He pays for things that they need to get paid for. We're about to cross a crazy bridge, which I'm gonna try to show you, and Bill's gonna tell you all about it.

[31:06] Bill: My gosh, hey everybody, yeah, we're heading over the Mackinac Bridge. So we're leaving the upper peninsula as they go to the tip of the lower peninsula. So they live below the bridge, which technically means that's where all the trolls are. So we're in the Straits of Mackinac. So this is where Lake Huron and Lake Michigan meet. So on this side over here is Lake Michigan and this side over here is Lake Huron. We're gonna be getting over to Mackinac City and we're gonna take a ferry over to Mackinac Island, which is where our senior showcase is almost identical to our Times Square experience. It's really very similar.

[32:01] Charlie Murphy: Just like our Times Square experience, really are getting the taxi options here is the taxis on Mackinac Island. Our beautiful hotel. My god, okay. I am here with Philip Adam Zay. Philip, you are about to do your big NMU showcase tonight. How you feeling readiness-wise?

[32:27] Philip Adam Zay: Very. I mean, it's the wonderful thing about it is it's the culmination of four years of hard work in an educational institution that we then get to bring out as sort of the bridge between our educational lives and our full professional lives.

[32:39] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, and so yes, in terms of readiness, we've been preparing for this for what, eight weeks? Eight to sixteen weeks in rehearsals, workshops, and all the fun stuff. I mean, I'll have given a little bit of a preview to our listeners of sort of what the experience that I'm getting here of this week. But talk to me about like what is it because tonight we're gonna do a showcase, you can do a show, but can you talk about like what is the experience of the week that NMU is giving you?

[33:06] Philip Adam Zay: Yes, so it's not just showcase. We're not just hopping on stage doing a fun little song and dance and monologue and scenes. It's a full week of networking, workshops.

[33:14] Charlie Murphy: Speak right now.

[33:18] Philip Adam Zay: Yes. Yes. Like even just like what, 15 minutes ago, we were all at lunch together, us students and all the industry professionals mingling, talking, having conversations, whether that be about industry or just chit-chat. That's the whole part of it is building these wonderful connections.

[33:33] Charlie Murphy: And talk to me a little bit. You started talking about the preparation. You've been preparing for eight weeks. I'd love to hear like sort of over the course of the four years what you feel has prepared you for the industry and then talk to me specifically what has the prep been for this week and for sort of your launch into the industry as you prepare for what your life is gonna be.

[34:01] Philip Adam Zay: Well, thinking back on four years, of course, you have your technique classes, and that's one of the big things. Our professor, Jimmy Ludwig, or James Ludwig professionally, his thing was each and every one of you coming into university is talented enough to go out and book a job. What we were doing in these four years is learning to build a career. So not just learning technique, but learning how to talk, learning how to have conversation outside, learning about ourselves, learning about each other, building these connections because part of what happens in the industry is we'll all go off and we'll be doing our own things for a few years. Then you never know when someone's gonna end up somewhere and say, "Hey, I'm writing a show. I think you'd be great," and suddenly we're these connections that we built in college are landing us real jobs and real money out in the world.

[34:46] Charlie Murphy: I love it. And do you know what the next steps for you on the world, you know, sort of in the short term? You've just graduated, right? Just like a week ago?

[34:53] Philip Adam Zay: Saturday.

[34:55] Charlie Murphy: Saturday, just Saturday graduation. And now what's the immediate next steps? Are we going home for a bit? Are we going to the next city? Do we know what jobs are? Do we kind of know what the next steps professionally?

[35:04] Philip Adam Zay: So initially, first right out of the gate, I'm headed back home to my home in Ketchikan, Alaska, where I will be a voice teacher for a bunch of high schoolers and some middle schoolers in a four-week theater intensive that has been running for over 20 years. Once we do that, we'll stay home, save up a little bit, and then we're making a jump to Chicago.

[35:27] Charlie Murphy: We being me and my partner who is also currently here.

[35:33] Philip Adam Zay: I love it. Okay, moving to Chicago. Yes, and what does you mean? Of course, you were picturing the future that you have yet to see, but what do you sort of see? You hit the ground running in Chicago. You got a little money in the bank. What is that gonna look like for you?

[35:44] Philip Adam Zay: Start talking, start having conversations, find myself, try to get myself in as many rooms just on the street, just out loud.

[35:50] Charlie Murphy: Yes, out loud everywhere on the buses, on city transportation now. But no, trying to find my way into audition rooms as many as possible, partly also to get a job, but also that's a good way to practice the skill and the muscle that is auditions and a good way to practice technique as well in many ways. And also, I have, it'll be good to see family that I haven't seen in a while. I have a bunch of family in Chicago, so I'll be seeing them as well. But professionally, mostly just try to get into as many audition rooms as possible in classes.

[36:20] Charlie Murphy: Okay, getting back a little bit to tonight. Do you know, is there anything that you've got, whether it's technique-wise or just your own personal preference of like how are you preparing yourself for tonight? Obviously, we're about to do class.

[36:31] Philip Adam Zay: Yes, but then after our class, you're gonna have a little time before the showcase itself. What is that? Is there a mantra? Is there a warm-up? Is there what are you gonna psychologically do to get yourself prepared for this experience?

[36:42] Philip Adam Zay: For one, I try to not think about the circumstances for me. I try to personally say this is another show. Yeah, because the moment I start thinking about who's in the audience, what everyone else in the audience is doing, what they're thinking, I'm out of the scene and I'm no longer in the real moment here. I am making you do it. I'm making you think about it. It's antithetical to—

[37:03] Charlie Murphy: But it's fine. I mean, what do you think? What would an ideal result from this process be? What would be like the, like this is my absolute dream if this were to happen out of this week?

[37:07] Philip Adam Zay: A job or at least connections that will lead to jobs in the future. Yeah, that is because at the end of the day, we're all trying to put food on the table.

[37:19] Charlie Murphy: I love it. Do you have any advice for, you know, your 18-year-old self? You know, a lot of in college listeners, but I like 16, 17-year-old listeners and parents of such. Any advice for like when you were entering into this process what you think about going to college and now as you leave college? Any advice now that you've gone through it all?

[37:37] Philip Adam Zay: You never know how it's gonna happen. You really don't. I come from a place where there's been a few successful actors walk out of—we mentioned Alaska. Yes, bless you, Alaska. What was it called again?

[37:49] Charlie Murphy: Ketchikan.

[37:52] Philip Adam Zay: Yes. Yeah, of course. Yeah. But we've had a few people walk out and have careers in arts or other stuff, but mostly it's not really seen as a possibility. But I walked into Northern Michigan University, and this is not how it happens anymore. There is like full pre-screening auditions, but one of the professors said, "Hey, audition tomorrow at 9 a.m." And I said, "Okay," and it ended up working out. So say yes, find ways to get in and talk again. I keep on going back to the theme of talking to people and having conversation because you never know where that might lead, not just for you, but just for anything.

[38:38] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Well, I don't see I'm seeing some of this week the boldness and the bravery that it takes, which I think for a lot of 16, 17-year-olds, that's hard to like introduce yourself to someone. I don't know what you guys were all cute on, but like everybody's I've been so great about like, "Hi, my name is Charlie. It's so nice to meet you." Yeah, like in real life, not everybody does that.

[39:03] Philip Adam Zay: No, so it's really, it's a good skill. And I've been saying to the podcast a couple times that skill of being over like, "Hi, I'm Charlie. Remember, you know me from this."

[39:06] Charlie Murphy: Yes. Yes. Yes. We saw you at that master class. Oh, thank you. It's so good to see you. All right, anything else you gotta say to people?

[39:11] Philip Adam Zay: Thank you for having me for one, but also it's a wonderful weird little world that theater and educational theater and the world coming out of educational theater is, and embrace the weirdness of it. Embrace the weird.

[39:18] Charlie Murphy: All right. I am here with Abigail Fosgool. You will also are about to showcase tonight in a few hours. First, you've got my very intimidating class coming, and then we've got a little showcase happening tonight. What are you thinking about? What's your mind state? How you feeling as you enter into tonight?

[39:30] Abigail Fosgool: I'm feeling excited. Yeah, I feel like it's such a wonderful opportunity to get to perform in Mackinac. I feel like not a lot of people get that opportunity, so yeah, I'm excited to do that. And now I know we're seeing all of the kind of performance majors together, but you tell me your major.

[39:48] Abigail Fosgool: You're a BA.

[39:50] Charlie Murphy: I'm doing dance.

[39:50] Abigail Fosgool: Being dance. Okay. So what, you know, I'd ask Philip of like what was the ideal result for him? What do you sort of see as the ideal result for you as that may be different from some of the BFA actors?

[40:01] Abigail Fosgool: The BFAMTs. Yeah, so I focus a lot on choreography, but I do love dancing myself. Yeah, so I would say the ideal scenario is doing choreography for like music videos or film or things like that.

[40:14] Charlie Murphy: Is that what you're doing for tonight is choreography?

[40:18] Abigail Fosgool: Yes, I choreographed a solo for myself, and at our showcase back at Northern, I had a short film that I showed, but it is unfortunately not being shown here.

[40:29] Charlie Murphy: Uh-huh. Well, maybe we'll have to put it up on the podcast or whatever, give a little clip for people or something. I love it. Okay. So how do you feel in terms of your level of preparation to enter the industry? Do you feel like, hey, based on the four years, based on this week, I feel ready to enter into what that's gonna be?

[40:39] Abigail Fosgool: Yes, so before I came to Northern, I was actually the instructor of a dance gymnastics parkour and acrobatics studio.

[40:51] Charlie Murphy: Let's go! Dance, gymnastics, parkour, and acrobatics.

[40:57] Abigail Fosgool: Yes, and I wanted to go to school to better myself not only as a dancer but as an instructor and choreographer and just learn better technique and just, you know, grow as myself. And yeah, I feel like that has really helped me focus on my creative path.

[41:13] Charlie Murphy: As you were thinking about what you were preparing this week or for this process, you mentioned the short film and that you've choreographed something for you. How much was the focus on the artistic side of things? Or, you know, Philip was talking about sort of some of the soft skills of life, like being able to talk to people. Like how much were you thinking about, hey, I'm really, I'm nervous about my dancing or I'm nervous about my dance or my film, and how much are you thinking about like this week is about me putting myself out there?

[41:38] Abigail Fosgool: I feel it's just me putting myself out there. I feel like I don't really get that nervous performing. I just get excited and I'm ready to do it.

[41:47] Charlie Murphy: You're gonna touch your toes and do it like you're like, I'm not worried about it.

[41:53] Abigail Fosgool: Yeah. Yeah, I think it'll be fun. And there are a couple group numbers that I dance in as well, so I'm also excited for those.

[41:59] Charlie Murphy: What about, do you have any advice that you would give to, you know, especially a lot of our listeners may think I'm doing BFA MT acting. It may be I think I'm doing BM in some sort of musical theater world, but plenty of them are really strong dancers. It's really something that's important to them. How did you think about, you know, your version of education and anything you would say to yourself now as you were, if you're going back and going how I might approach my theatrical education or my artistic education as you think about entering the dance world?

[42:29] Abigail Fosgool: A requirement was to take an acting class, and I thought was very interesting. I don't personally think that's the career for me. I love dancing choreography, but I think that it was fun to take that class, and I think that it was very educational for me.

[42:42] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, but you don't see yourself in like musicals eventually. You don't see it's like, hey, I could be the dancer in a musical who doesn't speak a lot or sing a lot. You're like, no, I think I'm more focused on truly the dance world.

[42:49] Abigail Fosgool: I mean, if that were to come my way, I would be down. I don't know. I feel like I'm just gonna go wherever one takes me, and if that happens to be musical, like I'm down for this is my long way of trying to get Abigail to do some Shakespeare for me in our class. We'll see if we can make it happen.

[43:05] Charlie Murphy: Okay, do you know what's next for you? Do you know what the next steps are in terms of after you graduate? We're going home for a bit or we don't go into a city like what is the plan now after things wrap up here?

[43:14] Abigail Fosgool: Yeah, so I am living in Marquette this summer, which is where our school is located. Yeah, I have auditioned and applied for a couple of dance opportunities this summer, and I'm waiting to hear back from them. But the overall plan is to move to Chicago in August.

[43:29] Charlie Murphy: Chicago in August. And dance opportunities looks like what in terms of what you've applied for? You don't tell me specific places if you're still holding with fingers crossed, but dance opportunities meaning to be in dance companies?

[43:38] Abigail Fosgool: One of the opportunities is a dance camp, and one of the other opportunities is being in a little dance short film.

[43:45] Charlie Murphy: Dance camp sounds like the scariest thing to me in the history of the world. Dance camp? Couldn't do it. Um, Abigail, thanks.

[43:54] Abigail Fosgool: Yeah, thank you.

[43:59] Charlie Murphy: We are entering the showcase experience itself, the wonderful people who attracted it, this greetings happening, and then here we go as we...

[44:08] Charlie Murphy: Walk in and get the full BAMF experience itself. Here it is. Northern Michigan University. Great to meet you all. I look forward to seeing you after the show. Woo! That was Bill Duggany, previous friend of ours.

[44:44] Liam Fisher: Thought I could hang with the big boys. Never been so exhausted in my life. 48 straight hours of partying, drinking, drugs, papers, lectures.

[44:54] Charlie Murphy: Drugs?

[44:55] Liam Fisher: Yeah.

[44:56] Charlie Murphy: Amphetamines, mostly.

[44:57] Liam Fisher: Really?

[44:58] Charlie Murphy: I mean, I don't. But some of the older guys are really nice. Gonna be with a she or a laddie. Smile as you go shopping for a daddy. Falling out of love can be fun. Even this? Even this? So I could say, Invincible for President, and that could be in our show?

[45:21] Liam Fisher: Uh-huh.

[45:22] Charlie Murphy: Well then, Invincible for President. I mean, I'd watch a show that says that.

[45:24] Liam Fisher: So would I. But do you think other people would want to watch something like that? At some point down the line, don't we get to relax, without some Newt Zuress to push?

[46:12] Charlie Murphy: Okay. I am here with Liam Fisher. Liam, just last night you completed your NMU showcase. So first off, how are you feeling and how do you think it went?

[46:21] Liam Fisher: It's over. It's done. I thought it was great. It was a good time.

[46:25] Charlie Murphy: I agree. It was great. But I am officially done with college. So it's a surreal feeling.

[46:29] Liam Fisher: What are you still doing here, though? Get out.

[46:31] Charlie Murphy: Doing a podcast with you.

[46:32] Liam Fisher: Well, I guess that's true. It's the last part of college.

[46:34] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. No, keep going. So you're feeling a little of the surreality of it all.

[46:38] Liam Fisher: Yeah. I don't quite know how to describe it. It's a little scary, exciting, but at the same time, it's what I've been waiting for four years.

[46:50] Charlie Murphy: So talk to me a little bit about your prep for the showcase. So I want to hear both in terms of what did you do leading up to last night? And let's talk about the performance itself. Of course, we can talk about this week in general. And then also, what was the past six months, the year of prep for what you were going to do? How do you think about what you were going to do?

[47:08] Liam Fisher: Yeah. So I think I was pretty proactive early on because I knew the showcase was going to happen. So I was always thinking in the back of my mind, like, what would I want to do? What would I want to do for that solo-wise, group number? And it changed almost every month. It was like throughout the years, it was like, oh, this one would be good. But it's like, no, I don't really. Maybe this one. And then it finally came time to start the class.

[47:31] Charlie Murphy: And so in terms of preparing for the showcase, it was an actual class during the day. And it was twice a week for 16 weeks, I think it was. So we didn't have a lot of time. And it wasn't like a daily rehearsal kind of thing because we only had an hour a day for twice a week, you know?

[47:54] Charlie Murphy: Talk to me about the process of how you arrived to the material. So are you looking mostly of like, I'm looking directly for material? Did you start with questions of like, how I want to show myself off? Did you talk about stuff like brand or like how you might see yourself in the industry and then work backward? How did you sort of arrive where you arrived?

[48:09] Liam Fisher: I felt that the piece that I picked was a very good acting piece. The showcase that we put together was really cool in terms of showing off like all aspects of a performer. And we had the opportunity to be in multiple numbers. So we had like a massive group number at the beginning, massive group number at the end that everybody was in. And then you had the opportunity to do a solo, a duet, a trio, like there were a lot of pieces. And I think the challenge was to find different pieces that are contrasting, and they show off different forms of acting, of dancing and singing. So that was exciting to me, to look for different pieces that show off the different parts of me as a performer.

[49:00] Charlie Murphy: And if you had to, and I don't mean to put you on the spot here, but if you had to articulate like, hey, what are the things that you think you're going to like lead with in the industry? What are those qualities? I mean, you came up with pieces, but I'd love to know like underlying that was because like, I think I'm going to do what professionally?

[49:16] Liam Fisher: Yeah, musicals are my thing. So I got a BFA in musical theater, officially. So I love singing, and I love telling the stories through song. But the acting is so important. So that's kind of what I've been honing in on these last four years is just locking into the acting part of the musical theater. So I see myself singing on stage.

[49:45] Charlie Murphy: And do you know what's next for you in terms of like, are you moving to a city? Do you have a plan of like, a couple months of this? Do I have a job? Like, what sort of is the next step?

[49:51] Liam Fisher: Yeah, so as of right now, I am heading down to Indiana for Wagon Wheel. It's a summer stock down in Warsaw. It's going to be my third summer down there. So then it's a great place, great performers, they always put on great shows. And then after that, in August, I'm heading down to Tampa, Florida. And I'm going to spend a good year there at the residency down at Suncoast Broadway Dinner Theater.

[50:15] Charlie Murphy: Yes, at the dinner theater. Now, are you doing like a season of different shows?

[50:17] Liam Fisher: Yep. So there's six different shows, which I'm super excited for. Shows that I...

[50:21] Charlie Murphy: Bless you.

[50:22] Liam Fisher: Thank you. Staying on his feet. Shows that I have been dreaming to do. So I'm very excited about that.

[50:29] Charlie Murphy: Very, very cool. Okay, let's look back a little bit on the NMU experience. And like, what were the four years for you? What do you feel like you got out of the four years at NMU?

[50:36] Liam Fisher: Experience.

[50:37] Charlie Murphy: A lot of experience.

[50:38] Liam Fisher: Meaning a lot of performance experience?

[50:39] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, we do 12 shows a year. And everyone's going to be in a show at some point. And then some people do two shows a year. Some people do three shows per semester. I mean, they keep you busy. And it also builds stamina. It builds credits. And it builds character.

[50:57] Liam Fisher: I love it. And we got a lot of character here.

[50:59] Charlie Murphy: Okay, what would be a perfect ideal, if you could showcase the ideal result from this week? So that includes the showcase last night, but then also just the past four days.

[51:07] Liam Fisher: Of course, Bill, I've heard about it many times now.

[51:08] Charlie Murphy: Sure.

[51:09] Liam Fisher: We're at Mackinac Island. Getting to take classes. You're in between classes today.

[51:12] Charlie Murphy: Sure. What would the perfect result for you of this week? Of like, what I got out of this week?

[51:16] Liam Fisher: Making connections. And still learning. Like school is over for me, but I know that I'm going to continue to learn, especially from people like yourself who teach these workshops.

[51:27] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. See how it's smooth like that? That's good. That's good. That's good.

[51:32] Liam Fisher: But it is true, though. And we learn a lot just by watching, watching each other as students, and then watching people like you that are willing to come in here and hone in on these kind of skills that we're trying to showcase.

[51:44] Charlie Murphy: Willing to hone in. I love it. Thanks, Liam.

[51:47] Liam Fisher: Of course.

[51:48] Charlie Murphy: Okay. I'm here with Bo Markham, who also just completed your showcase last night. How are you feeling today, and how do you think it went last night?

[51:56] Bo Markham: I think it went really well. I'm pretty worn down. I'm very tired.

[52:01] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Long way.

[52:04] Bo Markham: But it was a blast. It was a great collaboration. Yep. And it was so worth it.

[52:08] Charlie Murphy: I love it. And okay, you have to tell the people what your major is so that I don't mess it up.

[52:12] Bo Markham: I am a BS Theater and Entertainment Arts major with a minor in Music.

[52:17] Charlie Murphy: So what did that mean for you in the four years in terms of your experience getting to work with the BFAMTs, BF Actors, BA Dance?

[52:22] Bo Markham: I only transferred to the program about two years ago, I think. I was a Music Education major before, and the interactions, there are such talented people in this department and such wonderful people to work with that I got to do Rocky this fall.

[52:39] Charlie Murphy: Hell yeah.

[52:41] Bo Markham: Amazing group. And I got to learn so much, whether it's dancing, whether it was how to control myself when singing and my breathing. It's been very helpful to have such talented people to look up to and work with.

[52:55] Charlie Murphy: I love it. Okay, I'm going to ask you the question my wife hates to hear the most because my wife also is a BS in theater. So what do you plan to do with a BS in theater?

[53:03] Bo Markham: I want to be a music director. I am very open to stage, love performing, but I have learned that I love working with the pit. I love cultivating skills with students. I love being able to see them grow and progress throughout their time working with me.

[53:23] Charlie Murphy: What does being a music director look like in terms of, do you know where you think? Like, you know, there's a version of I'm a Broadway music director, a music director for education places. Like, what do you sort of see in terms of what your next steps are, your journey there?

[53:33] Bo Markham: I'm thinking more local sort of stuff. I would be very open to working for like a college doing voice lessons and music directing their shows. I'd be open to move into a small town and music directing and directing at a small school. I don't think I want to go super big like Broadway, but if the opportunity came, I don't know if I'd turn it down.

[53:54] Charlie Murphy: You've heard it here. She's not saying no to Broadway.

[53:56] Bo Markham: It's not going to happen.

[53:57] Charlie Murphy: But talk to me about what the tangible next steps. I know it's May 6th or whatever it is. You're just just finishing your showcase. You don't have to have it all figured out. But do you know what the next steps would be to get to those places?

[54:08] Bo Markham: Yes. I am going to Georgia this summer, actually, to do a vocal pedagogy clinic for a week.

[54:15] Charlie Murphy: Seems safe. You're going to be a voice teacher. A little pedagogy is not a bad idea.

[54:18] Bo Markham: Not a bad idea, folks. Yes. I'm taking a week-long intensive with the NATS program. And then I have been working very closely with Donna Poyer because she has helped me cultivate what I enjoy. I've been working with her for the last couple of years on different shows, from just pit management to assistant music directing.

[54:44] Charlie Murphy: And Donna's who runs the voice program at NMU?

[54:46] Bo Markham: Yes. Bunny and I were sitting at lunch minutes ago just complimenting the voices and how good everyone sounded, which we were like, I know that can't be. They all sounded good at 18. Some of that is the work. I mean, I'm sure a lot of you sounded good at 18, too, but some of that is the work. I thought the voices last night were really incredible.

[55:01] Charlie Murphy: Oh, yes.

[55:03] Bo Markham: Everyone in the showcase were phenomenal, and I've got to give them their credit. I loved working with these people.

[55:10] Charlie Murphy: You, too. You, too. You sounded great, too.

[55:13] Bo Markham: Thank you.

[55:14] Charlie Murphy: A little year in town. You don't see year in town at a showcase a lot. This is impressive, you know?

[55:17] Bo Markham: I've been working on that song since freshman year, back when I was a music major. So it's really a full circle moment for me to come back and be able to say, I can do this now. I can go and hit that high C. I can do it.

[55:32] Charlie Murphy: What would an ideal result from this week be for you? So it's the college four years as a whole, but what would you hope to get out of this showcase experience?

[55:40] Bo Markham: I would love to make more friends and connections. I want to get out and meet people. I struggle a lot with seizures and such, so it's very hard for me to be able and go do these things. So I really enjoy when I am able to just, even if they're happening, keep going, have great people around me who are more than willing to help if they need to. And I just want lasting relationships.

[56:08] Charlie Murphy: You mentioned seizures. Are there any specific that NMU has done to support you in that?

[56:14] Bo Markham: Absolutely. So talk to me about that.

[56:16] Yes. It really started with Rocky Horror this fall, where we had to consider, Beau may be out a show, or Beau may be seizing mid-show and be out for the rest of the show. So we were able to set it up so that I had crash pads on either side of the stage, which is what we had last night as well, in case I did have a seizure mid-show. Everyone was made aware of it so that they weren't surprised, because mine do not require medical attention. And they have been ungodly accommodating. When I have a seizure and can't get back to rehearsal, they are like, that is okay. We will film a video for you. And I put in the work outside so that everything meshes together really nicely.

[57:01] Charlie Murphy: I imagine some parent listeners out there are appreciating the phrase, ungodly accommodating. That's really great.

[57:07] Bo Markham: Yes. What about, do you have any advice out there for, you mentioned as a transfer student, do you have any advice out there for students maybe, a lot of our 18-year-old listeners feel like, hey, I have a sense, I want BFAMT, I want BFA acting, I know what I want. But for those out there who are still figuring out and navigating their path, any advice for people who might be in your situation?

[57:23] Bo Markham: Follow what you want to do. I originally picked music education because I never got a ton of big role opportunities when I was younger. And I was like, well, I'm not that great at theater, and I'll just go do music education. Everyone told me I'd be a great teacher, so I'll go do that. But everyone that freshman year who I talk to now says, yeah, we knew you were going to transfer to theater, because the whole time I just kept saying, I enjoy being here, but like, I want to be on the stage. I want to do theater. I love it.

[58:00] Charlie Murphy: Thanks, Bo. Appreciate it.

[58:01] Bo Markham: Of course.

[58:03] Charlie Murphy: I'm walking into a class that Michael Detroit is teaching. This is an example of the classes that they get from us. He just met me yesterday, sitting in that exact spot. But you have to make sure that you are not burning any bridges, ever. Because there are six people in the business, and we all know each other. We all know each other. And we share with each other, producers share with each other, casting directors share with each other, who is good to work with and who is not good to work with.

[58:29] Charlie Murphy: Okay. I am delighted to be here with Donna Poirier, who I just got to witness do some excellent work in a master class. And how would you describe your position at Northern Michigan?

[58:38] Donna Poirier: Well, technically, it is the director of voice and music. So I am responsible for our voice area. So I give voice lessons myself, and then oversee four other voice faculty there.

[58:51] Unknown speaker: I work on the musical direction, right from preparing choruses and orchestra pits and then conducting.

[58:58] Unknown speaker: Well, I think in the past 24 hours, you've heard your name, hopefully, ears have been buzzing. We've been talking to you a lot. The vocal work is fantastic in the Showcase and really strong. I want to talk a little bit about, I guess, your pedagogy training and then what is your philosophy? What are you doing with all these students that makes them all such great singers?

[59:19] Unknown speaker: First off, I think that each voice is beautifully individual. And so, yes, there are basic tenets to our training, but I really try to meet each person where they are and work with each instrument in its own unique capabilities. And I think that that's an impactful choice to make. I have three pillars of voice that I try to instill right from the beginning.

[59:53] Unknown speaker: Please, yeah, give me a quick three pillars.

[59:57] Unknown speaker: Yeah, so our pillars are where the energy comes from, how it's processed, and then how we hear it. And so we work with all of that. My own training, I did an undergrad and a master's degree in vocal training, University of Michigan and University of Connecticut, and then a doctorate degree in choral conducting. And very exciting, now I'm working on a vocology certificate through New York University, so the science of singing, which is fascinating.

[1:00:26] Unknown speaker: And where the energy comes from, you're talking about breath, primarily, and then you're talking about this is the voice box, the second one, and then resonance is the third thing that you're...

[1:00:34] Unknown speaker: Exactly, yes.

[1:00:35] Unknown speaker: Okay, I love it. One thing that's notable at the Showcase, and I'm going to be saying this in my review a little bit, is the indistinction, I should say, for lack of a better word, between the actors and the MTs. In terms of working with you, how does that work with you working with actors versus MTs versus the BAs and the BSs and the different degrees?

[1:00:54] Unknown speaker: A voice is a voice.

[1:00:55] Unknown speaker: But I'm saying you work with all of them.

[1:00:57] Unknown speaker: I do.

[1:00:58] Unknown speaker: Across majors, the BA, the BS, all of them.

[1:00:59] Unknown speaker: Yes.

[1:01:00] Unknown speaker: Okay, so they all got vocal training. If they were here, they were vocally trained by you.

[1:01:03] Unknown speaker: That's true.

[1:01:04] Unknown speaker: In terms of the selection process, I'm going to talk a bit with KB about the selection process too, but in terms of stuff like the musical selections, who chooses to sing, who chooses to sing what, how are you involved in that discussion?

[1:01:18] Unknown speaker: I am a piece of the pie, I guess is the way I would look at it. I think students certainly had ideas about what they wanted to sing. I gave opinions. I really tried not to push anybody hard in one direction or another, because at this stage of the game, I feel like they need to learn how to present who they want to be and how they want to be perceived. And then Kristin, of course, knowing the industry so well, was very influential in, yeah, this is going to work or this isn't going to work. And then we had a show to put together, so we had to have things so that we had a flow.

[1:02:00] Unknown speaker: Talk to me about on the admissions end, do you watch videos? For the auditions, how do you weigh in in terms of the selection of students?

[1:02:09] Unknown speaker: For our program?

[1:02:10] Unknown speaker: For the program itself, yeah.

[1:02:11] Unknown speaker: All of us do recruitment events, and so many things are now formulated so well virtually so we can watch videos, which I do a recruitment event in Virginia myself. And then we share a lot of information that way. We all use one common app.

[1:02:30] Unknown speaker: And are you doing any versions of like, hey, I think I can train this voice? Do you feel like, hey, give me any voice, I'll train them great? Or are you ever saying like, hey, this voice may be a little trickier, I don't know if I can get them to a certain place for the musical theater people?

[1:02:41] Unknown speaker: I truly love a challenge. And I love, to me, finding, one of my quotes when I was much younger was to find your unique instrument within. And I love to do that.

[1:02:54] Unknown speaker: I think successfully so. Oh, the one other question I had was about accompaniment. So it was a kind of unique thing I was noting as we were watching classes. Most of them are not coming up to you with books. So you must have, you have an iPad or something and you've planned this. So how did that conversation, even for the showcase, the elements around the show of the showcase, the classes, are they all having individual conversations with you in advance of, I want to sing this? Do you just know their rep well enough? Because they weren't even like telling you, measure 32. They were just nodding to you basically. How did that work?

[1:03:20] Unknown speaker: Well, a lot of this rep has been something we've been working on for a year, two years, sometimes.

[1:03:27] Unknown speaker: And often with you. So they've been working on it with you in classes.

[1:03:29] Unknown speaker: Yeah, in voice lessons. So we have had the unique opportunity to have time together to work on all of that. In some cases, there were some students here that hadn't taken lessons for a while. So some of the music was new to me or to them. But we did have conversations to make sure that everybody was properly prepared. And I have gotten so used to using an iPad, I sometimes, if I have paper, I end up tapping the paper to turn the page. I did that actually. So I'm more comfortable with my iPad. So I had most pieces on there.

[1:04:01] Unknown speaker: I love it. Anything else you want to say to the people? Anything else about your time at the program? I guess I'm asking this to KB and Jimmy as well in terms of, you've been here for five years? So how have you seen the progress of the five years of the program? How has it changed? And how is it changing, do you feel like?

[1:04:16] Unknown speaker: It's grown dramatically. So just in numbers, but also in the level that we're putting out. I think it's always been a program with a great deal of heart. I've taught at other universities and I love the grit that we have there and dedication. Our faculty is just incredibly dedicated, everybody across the board. And so there's just a true beauty in putting our productions together and sending these students off into the world. So I love being a piece of this.

[1:04:47] Unknown speaker: I love it. Well, you're doing something right. It's really great.

[1:04:50] Unknown speaker: Thank you so much. Thank you.

[1:04:51] Unknown speaker: I appreciate it.

[1:04:52] Unknown speaker: A shout out to the hotel.

[1:04:55] Unknown speaker: With a horse?

[1:05:01] Unknown speaker: Now we're in the lobby.

[1:05:02] Unknown speaker: It's a grand hotel.

[1:05:09] Unknown speaker: Okay. I am here with KB and Jimmy. Kristen Beth, I shouldn't be saying KB, and James.

[1:05:15] Unknown speaker: Let's be formal. Let's be formal and then we'll be informal. Two wonderful members of the faculty. I'll actually let you guys introduce. Do you want to say what your positions at the school are?

[1:05:24] Jimmy Ludwig: Sure. Jimmy Ludwig. I am the director of the BFA in acting at Northern Michigan University.

[1:05:29] Kristen Beth Ludwig-Williams: And I'm Kristen Beth Ludwig-Williams, and I am the director of BA theater performance at Northern Michigan University.

[1:05:35] Kristen Beth Ludwig-Williams: And the director of this very showcase.

[1:05:37] Jimmy Ludwig: Yes. So the director and choreographer of the showcase.

[1:05:39] Unknown speaker: What we're here to showcase here. So can we start off with that? I'd love to just hear a little bit about both kind of your inspiration for the showcase, so what your thought process was, and then a little bit of the process. We heard some of it from the student end, but what your process was with the class and then building to the showcase itself.

[1:05:53] Kristen Beth Ludwig-Williams: Sure. I feel like the showcase needs to do exactly that. It needs to showcase the students and what they do well. So this is a class that we do. It's a full semester class. It's only our second time doing this kind of a class format. Last year the class was only a half semester class. It was only seven weeks. So Jimmy directed the showcase last year and it felt very rushed. So we decided this year let's try it as a full semester.

[1:06:19] Jimmy Ludwig: And a better director now.

[1:06:21] Kristen Beth Ludwig-Williams: We were able to, I was able to let the students come in and pitch ideas of like this is what I want to do. This is what I do well. They came in with solos, with duets, with scenes, with monologues. Two of the students came in and said we really want to do some stage combat. We feel really confident in that. And I went okay. And they initially came in with two monologues from what Shakespeare play. They came in with a monologue and a monologue that leads into a sword fight.

[1:06:49] Unknown speaker: How did those get cut?

[1:06:50] Jimmy Ludwig: King Henry IV?

[1:06:51] Kristen Beth Ludwig-Williams: I think it was Henry IV.

[1:06:53] Jimmy Ludwig: Shouldn't be cutting Shakespeare. It's a bad decision.

[1:06:55] Kristen Beth Ludwig-Williams: Well, I said I don't know. I don't know how we trim these two lengthy monologues and still do the fight. And they had both mentioned we'd like to do more scene work instead of monologue after monologue after monologue. And I went okay. And this is sort of how the whole class went. I said okay. Why don't you look at this scene from Jen Silverman's Witch that leads into a fight and like take a look at it. Let me know what you think.

[1:07:23] Jimmy Ludwig: And they came back and they were like we love this scene. We can do this. I said great. Then let's work on that. And so we did that a couple of different ways.

[1:07:30] Kristen Beth Ludwig-Williams: You did a beautiful job too.

[1:07:31] Jimmy Ludwig: Thank you.

[1:07:32] Kristen Beth Ludwig-Williams: You really put together a beautiful fight.

[1:07:33] Jimmy Ludwig: They did. But that's sort of how the process went. It was they came in and pitched things and I either said yes or maybe or I don't think this is the right thing for you. And then we all worked collaboratively. Donna Poirier, who's our music director.

[1:07:45] Unknown speaker: Yes, we talked too.

[1:07:46] Jimmy Ludwig: And I worked together on that going okay. So the student says this. We think that that's not quite the right choice. So let's put our heads together and see if we can come up with something better. And we would pitch it to the student and then they would work on it and bring it back in and go okay. I think this is the right thing.

[1:08:05] Unknown speaker: Yeah, I love it. Was there any conversation about like process in terms of this may get a little bit into the education that leads up to this. But like were they as they were bringing in stuff, were they thinking about here's how I think the world will see me? Like how were they drawing the line of sight from like their education to what showcased and then we talked a little bit with some of the four of them of where they think is next. Like, you know, sort of what context they thought this was going to be for them. Like do we have that conversation?

[1:08:29] Kristen Beth Ludwig-Williams: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That was a what roles are you going to be playing now or within the next five years? Like let's not do something that like you're not going to play. I'm not going to let you do King Lear because you're not going to play King Lear until you're much older.

[1:08:45] Unknown speaker: And even we noticed some of it might be like, hey, I might not be doing Shakespeare. I might be doing some say I really want TV and film. I really want to look in the musical theater, maybe more theater. So I guess how did that conversation go in terms of the material that people chose?

[1:08:58] Kristen Beth Ludwig-Williams: Most of it was we really try to let the students drive it as much as possible. And this class was predominantly musical theater focused. You know, we had a couple of BA students. We had a couple of dance students, but predominantly this was BFA acting and BFA musical theater. So the and it was nice to get a chance for our BFA actors to go. I do also sing. Yes, I do also sing and I move well because I think I can do all the things. And I went, OK, well, let's make sure we showcase that. You leave me all the things.

[1:09:29] Unknown speaker: Yeah, I would say you leave me beautiful. My next question to Jimmy, I'd love to talk a little bit about, you know, in general with the program, how you integrate with the BFA actors with the MTS and sort of the way you view the training. And then, yes, specifically in the showcase, because one of the most notes I took was I would think watching this, if I didn't spend a lot of time with them, indistinguishable, which the actors and the MTS were. You know, it's a beautiful voice, but you couldn't.

[1:09:51] Jimmy Ludwig: Oh, God. OK, that's. I'm going to try to condense this down for you then. We'll see. It sort of goes back.

[1:09:55] Unknown speaker: Remember, this is mostly an audio medium. So this is really, truly bonus for the Instagram clip.

[1:10:03] Jimmy Ludwig: So it sort of goes back to the fact that I personally, when I get to New York in the 90s, that I had a big old MFA in acting.

[1:10:11] Unknown speaker: Yeah.

[1:10:15] Jimmy Ludwig: But I had done from you. We can share from University of Washington. Yeah. You dub go dogs. And I was going to be like the Shakespearean actor.

[1:10:19] Unknown speaker: Yeah.

[1:10:23] Jimmy Ludwig: The actor to capital A. But I could sing and I had and I could dance a little bit. And I know, but I didn't have a musical theater education per se. And my degree did not say musical theater.

[1:10:31] Unknown speaker: So but I did one musical.

[1:10:35] Jimmy Ludwig: Yeah. And John and Jen, which became a thing. And yeah. So I was the original John. We workshopped it out of town and then there was a year off and then we did it off Broadway. And then all of a sudden New York was like, hey, you're a musical theater guy.

[1:10:43] Unknown speaker: The original. Do you think he looks old enough to be the original John and John and Jen? Can't possibly be true. It's a little gray in the muzzle here. Tiny bit. My gosh. Thank you.

[1:10:51] Jimmy Ludwig: But anyway. So my journey professionally has always been the more you can do, the more you're going to work.

[1:10:59] Unknown speaker: Right.

[1:11:03] Jimmy Ludwig: Even though I had a degree that said a thing when the other work came in. I was like, well, yeah, I'm going to do that. Of course. And so my Broadway shows are all musicals and I've done tons of plays off Broadway. I was a blue man for two years. So, you know, I do all the things.

[1:11:11] Unknown speaker: Yeah.

[1:11:15] Jimmy Ludwig: And I personally believe that the siloization of actor training is not really correct because that's not it's not helpful for the students because they begin to see themselves only as like one thing on musical theater person. It's like, ah, no, you're not. You have you do great scene work and you're or so we feel at Northern and I feel personally that if we could just have a BFA in performance writ large and then within that you kind of choose your own adventure.

[1:11:39] Unknown speaker: Yeah.

[1:11:43] Jimmy Ludwig: That would be perfect.

[1:11:47] Unknown speaker: Yeah, it's really is the industry of academia. I said on top of the pot. I'm like in the world. They don't think of it. There's like, oh, you're an actor. And do you sing or not? Like that's that's all the care.

[1:11:55] Jimmy Ludwig: Can you come in and get the job? That's right. What are your skill set? Yes.

[1:11:59] Unknown speaker: You know, actors always are going to want if you want to make money, you're going to want to be musicals and musical theater people. If you want to really make money, you're going to want to TV and so it's like everybody wants to do the thing about going to be the snob who's like, no, God, no. All I do is Shakespeare.

[1:12:11] Unknown speaker: You know, whatever.

[1:12:15] Jimmy Ludwig: Hey, that sounded like was he doing impression of me? Was that me? My God. OK, great impression of my bad impression of myself.

[1:12:19] Unknown speaker: So we are our BFA actors take voice lessons from day one.

[1:12:23] Jimmy Ludwig: Yes.

[1:12:27] Unknown speaker: They have the entire musical theater dance progression available to them. And it's really just how they want to structure that degree.

[1:12:31] Jimmy Ludwig: So we really make a point of making sure that both our musical theater people do a lot of upper level acting classes and our theater people are BFA actors do a lot of musical theater stuff so that they have the skill sets. And I was able to compliment Donna on that and just how the actors sound amazing. The actors really do. I know that's not something that's part of the admission process for actors of how good of a singer you are, but they leave all sounding great. I'm like, you guys could work in musical theater for sure.

[1:12:55] Unknown speaker: OK, I want to talk a little bit about the goals of the showcase, too. So, you know, I talked a bit about this with Bill right afterward, but being just like how much you view this specific experience as a showcase, meaning giving them industry connections and industry clips that are going to go out into the world and how much it's also sort of a capstone experience for, you know, I'm noticing timing wise is right after they've graduated. So it feels here like there is this experience of like, I'm finishing my four years and part of this celebration even thinking about the group numbers and some of those things, it does feel like there's an element of group celebration of the team as they're saying goodbye.

[1:13:34] Unknown speaker: How did you think about that balance of the goals as you were putting it together?

[1:13:37] Unknown speaker: I really just, you know, I don't know. I thought, well, we need an opener and a closer, and I thought, excuse me, I thought, wouldn't it be fun? We opened with Nicest Kids in Town from Hairspray, and I was like, what I loved about it was we're, oh look, we're the nice kids, and then like, let's journey away from that as we go on. But it was a fun, up to high energy celebration. They all get a little, you know, in that roll call moment, they all get a little moment to go, I'm, here's my name. And I was like, that's, that feels appropriate for this moment in their lives and this moment in their journeys.

[1:14:21] Unknown speaker: Can I add, I think one thing that's special about the process that we do at Northern is, you know, we have the showcase performance, but it is, as you've now seen, it is a kind of a small chunk of the overall experience, because the four days are all these great workshops that they get to do with you pros, and you know, his was fantastic. It really was, it was great.

[1:14:43] Unknown speaker: They all love it. They're fans already. They're listening to the podcast. They already like me. I don't need to convince you. But the, it just, it's, yes, it's, it is sort of icing on the cake moment, icing on the cake moment, but also the point of the showcase and the point of any showcase in my estimation is to, to, yeah, to get yourself out there, but also to find your champions. You know what I mean? The people who are like, I, I had an issue once where I was just really down and professionally, and I knew I was good, but I just, you know, it was, I was not hitting it for some reason. And I just walked into a casting director's office who I knew, and I knew was a champion of mine. And I said, what am I doing wrong here?

What's going on? What am I, you know, and just like, and that person was like, all right, come in the office. Let's talk. Yeah. And two days later, I booked a TV gig that I still have in a resume, right? So it's just that you want the people who will look out for you, you know, who will root for you. Yeah. Like you talked about.

[1:15:42] Unknown speaker: Well, there's ability to process in real time too. It feels like we saw that in the, Oh, let me take a breath. Okay. Am I ready for tonight? Okay. What was that moment? Like it's also like the reason I think that we, we piloted this program last year, this showcase week on this wonderful, beautiful Island is because one, we are isolated where we are a hundred percent. And we will admit that. Like we, it's like one of our get to us as an adventure. And like, you got to have some grit to make it through four years at Northern Michigan university. But like, you also have to have grit to make it through this, make it in this industry. Um, but so, and we didn't feel it was fair to say, all right, seniors, do you want to go to New York?

Do you want to go to Chicago or do you want to go to LA? Because you probably can't afford to do all three. And we, we know that the showcase model in New York is kind of broken. It's just, it's oversaturated. The market is, you know, we talked to my agents don't go anymore to showcases because there's too many of them. So we went, you know what, let's try this. Let's bring the industry to us. And this year we had representatives from all three major markets, New York, Chicago, and LA. And we said, come to us, come spend four days on a beautiful Island. You'll have time to do your work that you need to do. You had time to work, um, you know, but come in and like work with our students actually build a relationship as opposed to just coming in and seeing a one night only performance that you're going to like run out of and maybe not remember the bet you're making is we're going to go not as wide, but we're going to go deeper with a couple of people. So you're going to have some, a couple of really deep connections as opposed to scatter out everywhere and hope a couple of things, you know, grab whatever.

[1:17:19] Unknown speaker: Well let's talk about the scattering out everywhere. I know they filmed this version of this or you filmed a version of this back on campus. So what do the students leave with in terms of a virtual component? Like, are they going to have the whole showcase or they can have clips or they can have, what does that look like in terms of what they leave with?

[1:17:34] Unknown speaker: They'll have access to that file and be able to divvy it up however they want to, uh, for reels, performance reels, all that kind of stuff. Um, they also have access to all of, I mean, we do 15 or 16 shows a year, so they have access to all of that archival material. Um, they can't post full scenes obviously because that's rights issues, but in terms of like putting up actor reels, there's, they can clip, you know, put things up there and um, so they have a prodigious amount of material that they're able to feature. Um, and also we have a really robust digital cinema program at Northern and all of our BFAs, musical theater and theater, um, work with them a lot. So they leave with a ton of digital material.

[1:18:10] Unknown speaker: And do you know, is that a lot of your students, are they leaving with a website that's got, you know, are they doing that work to cut? Okay, here's my 45 seconds here. Here's my whatever. And putting together a little bit of digital reels. We did as part of the class, the senior showcase class was send me your, send me your resumes, send me your reels, send me your, all of, all of your materials, send me your Instagram. Like, let me take a look at it and I'll tell you your website, all of those things. Like what do you, and we have a, we have a class called careers where they have to build their website. They have to do all of those things. But I said like, let me look at it. Um, that was what we did right before spring break.

It was like, send me your stuff right before spring break. And then I have the week to look at it. And then we come back, you still have some time to make some adjustments and judge and fix. And, and then, you know, we still had a full, a full length musical that several of our seniors had leads in after that. And so I was like, okay, so when we get that footage from nine to five, then you can go back in and you can insert some of those things. You can do that. And we've got a professional photographer who takes stills and teaching them how to incorporate those into their reels and their websites and all of those.

[1:19:12] Unknown speaker: And our professional photographer is also an award-winning filmmaker himself in his own right. So it's like, yeah, we have, um, will you give me a little bonus question or a little bonus tips of you two as a couple, um, navigating this? We often talk about, especially for our parent listeners go, how do you, how does anyone make a life in this? They often ask me, how do you have a kid? And how do you do this in the industry? How do you possibly, so like you guys have a kid, you are both active artists yourselves, right? Like how do you make that work with going, balancing your artistic careers, balancing your love, but it's not clear these two are married to each other. Um, and you know, now working in academia. So now that's become sort of the moneymaker. I just, how do you guys navigate the life of it all?

[1:19:55] Unknown speaker: The best mantra I was ever given is whatever happens, I'll figure out what to do. And it's not like you're planning. It's that, you know, the, the life of an artist and the life of an academic, considering the amount of work that we do and the amount of shows that we do, there are so many curve balls. Every day is different. What's, what's, Oh my God, an email came in and my whole life has changed, right? Our whole life has changed. Do an email that arrived just a little while ago. I was going to say, if we want to reveal, no, there's no secret. It'll be a secret email that won't tell the podcast listeners.

[1:20:29] Unknown speaker: The point is that we, you know, it is, it is a constant, that feeling of being the freelancer that is always trying to figure things out. Can I swear, figure, figure your shit out? Um, is, is, uh, um, it never ends. And I think it's really good to have that in your life just because we're, we've been around and doing things long enough. And I was in New York during the downturn in 2008 when people who thought they had the most solid job in the world, it evaporated overnight, right? Security's an illusion a little bit. So being kind of light on your feet and ready to go is what a parent being a parent is all about. I mean, it's like, you're talking about the same thing. You're just applying it to different paradigms, you know, but particularly it's a particular challenge.

If you're gonna take a job at a university that isn't close to a major city that you're going like, if one of you gets a job, then can the other one get a job? And I thought like navigating that and going, but I'm not ready to leave New York right now. Are we ready to do this? That's, that's, that's almost exactly what happened when Jimmy first got this job. I booked, I booked this job first. I got the job at Northern and went back to her and was like, uh, now what do we do now? What do we do? Like here's, and we had, we had already started the conversation because, um, Jimmy, we, well, we've both been teaching, uh, at a conservatory style program in New York city. It's all remained nameless.

[1:22:17] Unknown speaker: Wow. So much. It doesn't need to remain nameless. You can talk about fancy jobs. I mean, we were, we were both teaching at AMDA, um, which is a great gig when you're in the city. There are so many great things about it. Um, and it was, it was a lifesaver for us, honestly, in the pandemic because they, they did a great job of figuring out how to do virtual and in person in that fall of 2020. And that was an amazing opportunity for us. We both taught full-time, kept us employed, but it didn't have, it doesn't have things like health insurance and you know, the benefits don't exist. They're not existent. Million actors. So, so Jimmy, it was just really when I, when I booked, um, I booked paradise square, the out of town of paradise square.

So that was the first time that like, okay, well, mommy's leaving town for three months. I was going to go be in Chicago for three months. And like, how do we, how do we do this now that we have a child? Cause in 2019, we did a, we did a series of jobs together and we just packed him up and like took him with us and like figured it out.

[1:23:06] Unknown speaker: And do you have parental childcare or how did you make that? We just figured out local childcare. Parents come out and help. We did have a niece that was a nanny for us for a while, but you know, it was like layering those on top of each other and figuring it out. Yeah, this works.

[1:23:14] Unknown speaker: You know, then Jimmy started going, you know, this is, this, and it's great, but no benefits. Like we don't, there's, there's security, but not security. And like, this is an original this is somebody who, I mean, if I'm saying from an age perspective, you know, this is, but there has to be a, there has to be a better way. And so he started applying for higher ed jobs and Jimmy grew up in the upper peninsula and this job came around. And so, well, I will say the, the, the part of it that was really fascinating was that I'd always had this dream kind of in the back of my head. I always had the MFA in my back pocket, but I was working and I wanted to work and wanted to do all that. And, but I was always like, Oh, I'll descend on a liberal arts school one day and I'll just, I'll just recreate it in my own image. Right. Whatever. Well, it turns out if you're just some schmo from New York, they don't let you do that. Right. You've got to jump through all of their ridiculous hoops and all that kind of stuff.

[1:24:04] Unknown speaker: Well, as it turns out this job where I grew up near where I grew up opens up and they're looking for somebody to build a program brand new program. And it just, it was on the books, but it hadn't been built, hadn't been recruited. And I was like, wait, you're kidding me. That's exciting. Yeah. It was the, it was the universe, like McFly, you know, on my forehead originating in Broadway role. I mean, what did so many people go? I was like, well, if I would do it, I would only do it if I could start from the ground up. It was 100% that. And I, I finished the, I would say I finished the audition is like, I came out for an interview and I went back to New York and I was like, and she's in a Broadway show.

And I'm like, honey, I think, I think this is going to happen. And if it does you, I mean, you know, we owned a beautiful place in New York. I mean, you should stay, you should stay in New York. We were looking at all of the options. It was one of those things where it's like, is, are you moving to the UP and like, we're finding you an apartment? Are we finding you like a, do they sublet there? Like are Jake and I staying here because our son was about to go into kindergarten? Like, like what, or are we, or are we all going, you know, and then my show closed and I went away and did one more job. I went out to Sacramento and did another show. And then I came back and two weeks later we were moving to the upper peninsula. We pushed our chips into the middle of the table and we've been able to go back and forth and audition.

[1:25:31] Unknown speaker: Yeah. I'm actually going to do more work pro in the next year than I've done since the pandemic. It's awesome. And, but we, it's the intricacies of working that out with an academic job are pretty legendary.

[1:25:36] Unknown speaker: Yeah. You know, I think it's important, you know one of the things we, we pride ourselves on is that every member of our performance faculty, our professional, our professionals have been on Broadway, have worked professionally in their field of expertise. You know, our, um, we have dance faculty who've been in the Celine Dion show in Vegas and, um, retired, uh, uh, principal ballerina, you know, we've got like Jill Grunstrom worked with So You Think You Can Dance and had just finished her doctorate, doctorate in dance science. So like everybody is at the top of their field and still working professionally. And I think that that's important that we understand what the industry is today and not what the industry was 20 years ago.

[1:26:20] Unknown speaker: Like we're not teaching to that. We're teaching to what is happening now because we're still in it and we still know.

[1:26:24] Unknown speaker: Speaking of what is happening now, we have to end this interview before my camera falls for the fourth time. You of course won't know this as listeners, the technical difficulties, these, this is how impressive these actors are. They're navigating this, they're keeping calm even as the world is falling down around them. Isn't that how it always is?

[1:26:37] Unknown speaker: Yes, exactly. Jimmy, KB, you're so nice. Thank you. Thank you. Such a pleasure.

[1:26:43] Unknown speaker: Okay, and here we are wrapping up the showcase experience, leaving beautiful Mackinac Island behind.

[1:26:51] Unknown speaker: Mackinac Island actually is what it's called. Mackinac the city, Mackinac the island.

[1:26:56] Unknown speaker: But you can't hear any of this because here we are at the ferry.

[1:26:59] Charlie Murphy: Yes, yes, yes. That will do it for another episode of Mapping the College Edition produced by Kelly Prendergast. It is the conclusion of our 2026 version of Showcasing Showcases. So again, let us know if this was worth all the trouble and if we should do it again in 2027, or if you couldn't care less, let us know that too, right? Again, you can do all that letting us know at Mailbag and Mapping the College Edition. That's mailbag at mappingthecollegeedition.com.

[1:27:23] Charlie Murphy: Again, you can do all that letting us know at Mailbag and Mapping the College Edition. That's mailbag at mappingthecollegeedition.com. By writing us a rating and review, as long as that review has five stars, or by commenting on all of our social media platforms like Mapping the College Edition on Instagram. And of course, always, you can check us out at mtca.com for help with your individual college edition process for those for whom that may apply. To my young artists out there at Mapping Their Journeys, please trust that you're enough exactly as you are right now. Now keep striving. We'll catch you next week.