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[0:00] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping The College Audition. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, Director of MTCA. That's Musical Theatre, College Auditions. Check us out at mtca.com. And today we've got Jessica Boevers Bogart and Sydney Morton from the University of Michigan on the pod. For our newer listeners, this is another one of our college deep dive episodes where we explore the landscape of the college theatre world and try to demystify this daunting audition process one episode at a time. And this is another one of our Act III episodes. I think our second only Act III with the same school for the third time. I'll say it again a bit in the interview, but for those who do want to go back and listen to the episode with Mark Benalma and Michael McElroy, even though both those people are no longer at the school, we do a bit more of the standard interview situation, where we kind of touch on all things Michigan and, you know, sort of more of the standard questions that I often ask.

But here, we do do some of those questions, but we also try to get a kind of fresh perspective, a fresh 2025 perspective from Sydney and Jessica. So I think you could listen to those first two first, or you could start here, whichever you want to do it in whatever order works for you. I also feel just in general with some of these episodes on the more popular schools, I think it's helpful to kind of broaden the conversation slightly, since it is often a bit less about what is a Michigan for many of you as listeners and a bit more just about understanding the process more broadly. So I think we achieved that here and have a really great conversation. And if you're looking for more conversations and broad understandings of this very process as a whole, I hope you're checking out our MTCA webinars.

Whether or not you are already an MTCA student, these are really valuable for you to check out and available to all. We invite you to kind of get a window into how we work before you have to make any commitment to join the MTCA family. All are welcome. Our next one is coming up this Thursday, June 12th. That's tomorrow, if you listen on episode drop day at 9pm Eastern. This one is all about pre-screen mania, looking ahead at the upcoming pre-screen process. And if you're listening later, then you've missed this webinar. But the good news is we have at least one a month, sometimes two in a month. So just jump into the next one, whatever time of year, whatever year it is, if we're still listening to podcasts in the future.

I think you really enjoy these webinars. Okay, I'm keeping the intro brief since the interview and the takeaways are both long. So please enjoy this conversation with Jessica Boevers Bogart and Sydney Morton from the University of Michigan.

[2:47] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to be joined by Sydney Morton and Jessica Boevers Bogart from the University of Michigan. Sydney has a BFA in musical theater from this very University of Michigan. She's been on Broadway in Memphis, Evita, American Psycho, Motown, lots of cool TV and film, just more than I can possibly mention. Also has taught at a lot of previous places, including Ryder University, where she was teaching the very person who was researching her bio, our podcast producer Kelly Prendergrass, gives a shout out to Sydney, and Marymount Manhattan, and is currently an assistant professor at the University of Michigan, alongside Jessica, who has a BFA in MT from CCM and an MA from NYU Steinhardt.

Actually been on Broadway too many times to name. It's rare that I actually can't read them all, so I won't read them. Oklahoma, Les Mis, Rent, and like seven other literal Broadway shows that she's been in, tons of regional theater, tons of cool stuff. Also taught a bunch of different places. We'll talk about that a little bit, including at Pace University before becoming an assistant professor at the University of Michigan, which is still located in Ann Arbor, Michigan. They take classes of about 22 students. They offer BFAs in MT, BFA in theater performance, etc. All right, after that long intro, I'm exhausted now. How are you doing? Welcome on the pod, both of you.

[4:05] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Thank you for having us.

[4:06] Sydney Morton: Of course. I'm so excited. And I will have just said this in the intro in the episode to everyone, but this is like now our second ever Act Three with a school. So we've done a couple Act Twos. This is like only our second ever Act Three. So we're in rarefied air here. But I just do think I'll take it as an opportunity in getting to do a third visit with a school to like slant the podcast a little bit more toward the way that we're doing it. So for so many of our schools, we have listeners who are kind of listening primarily to decide whether they're interested enough in a school to add it to their list. And I think in a large percentage of cases, our listeners, we know they're interested in Michigan, right?

They may still not end up deciding to apply to the school for whatever reason, but I don't think you guys need to sell the school at all. So we're going to shift away from some of the standard questions. For our listeners who listen to all the episodes, you may be expecting certain questions. I'm not going to ask all of those questions in terms of explaining the school to the broader public. For those who are interested in those questions and a bit more of our regular run through, please do go back and listen to those episodes with Mark Bandama and Michael McElroy, where we did versions of this breakdown. So we're still going to cover a little bit of the school as a whole, but I really want to get Sydney and Jessica's fresh perspective.

And also we'll try to broaden the conversation a bit today in terms of the broader landscape. But before I get to Michigan and those very broad conversations, can you both just give me a little bit of your journey to Michigan, or in your case, Sydney, back to Michigan? Both of you are in the middle of really fantastic careers and are pretty recent hires. So can we talk about what made you decide to jump into academia and how it fits into your life?

[5:30] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Sure. Jess, you go first.

[5:31] Sydney Morton: Yeah, I'll go first. So my journey, I was raised by two teachers, one of whom ran a regional theater in Chicago. So I've got both academia and theater running through the veins. Really early in my career, when I was in a dressing room at 21 and Beauty and the Beast, I remember feeling like the wisdom being given to me was that this gets harder in your late 40s and 50s as a woman to figure out navigating a career as an actor. So it was really early on that I knew around 50 I was going to shift into academia.

[6:20] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Which is like 15 years from now for you.

[6:21] Sydney Morton: Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, just like, you know, I always joke the secret is strong with me. But I think, you know, with anyone, you set those goals, and you always, and the universe starts conspiring to help you make it happen. And I was, you know, applying at different schools, weighing different places that we could live, and ran into Linda, who was our chair last year. I should be using last names, Linda Goodrich. And I saw her at a dear friend's house, and she was retiring. And she said, you should apply for my job at Michigan. And so I felt very much like the moons had collided and brought me to this application process. And it right away, I just fell in love. And it seemed like such an incredible fit. And I knew a lot. I knew Linda, I knew Mark Madama, I knew Michael McElroy, I knew so many of the players at the school at the time. So it just felt like just a beautiful academic home for me.

[7:34] Sydney Morton: And Sydney, what about you? Was it also the secret and moons aligning?

[7:39] Jessica Boevers Bogart: It was definitely moons aligning. I don't know that I was like, secreting it, it, you know, it's, it kind of came in an unexpected way. But when the momentum is that clear, and like strong, I am, I definitely am a proponent of just going with it. But teaching has always found me. I started teaching dance when I was in high school. And I always loved it. And it always really fed me as an artist, I would do a lot of guest teaching, I had the joy of working alongside Robert, Robert Hartwell, as he built Broadway Collective into this huge, amazing and like necessary thing once especially the pandemic hit. So I was and a lot of that tradition of teaching was in the tradition of Mark Madama, because we both went to school and learn from Mark.

So, you know, I was always honing these skills. And then I started doing guest teaching and masterclasses. And it was always finding me, I was always a very opinionated. And I love to dissect things and figure out like, how, how do we rebuild this? How do we make this? So it always made sense for me to be finding myself in a teaching position. Then we had the last five years, which is the pandemic, the actor strike, writer's strike, and I also had a baby. And I knew that I had some friends and like contemporaries going and teaching. And so I reached out to Jeff Packard, who is a professor at the University of Michigan, I was at school with Chelsea, his wife, Chelsea Packard, who's also a professor, I knew that the Bogarts were relocating.

And so I was like, I was curious about how people I knew who were still active in the industry were doing this. And we have Linda in common. Jeff told me call Linda, I ended up guest teaching, fell in love with it applied for the full time position. And it happened very swiftly that we were packing our bags and relocating to Ann Arbor.

[9:42] Charlie Murphy: I love it. And I have a couple questions. I love the brought up Broadway collective some quick questions in terms of that perspective from that side of the table. I have some future questions that we have time to talk about in terms of your life and what this means to sort of mid career be jumping into a professorship. But I do want to jump a little into your perspective on Michigan, you know, having taught it now both of you have taught at different institutions. And I do think, you know, people think of Michigan, the handful of schools in this, this category as well, where they, they think it's this rarefied air kind of school, like, what do you, how do you see a Michigan student as different from a different BFA student? What distinguishes the ethos of a Michigan student or the Michigan experience, and how it may be different than other schools in places where you've seen students where you've gotten a chance to teach?

[10:30] Jessica Boevers Bogart: I hear from Sydney, you know, I, well, my perspective on that is so much of the full person and growing artists and not really having an opinion about where their path should lead them, but just helping them to discover who that is, and how to grow it. But I think Sid also has some perspective having gone there, what it means to be a Michigan student that I feel like you're teaching me a little bit as well.

[10:56] Sydney Morton: Yeah, I mean, I think there is a larger tradition of just the university as a whole is a really unique environment. It is a state school, but it's rigorous and, and competitive in many different majors and schools within the university on like a world, an international scale. And so there is a real rigor to the academic aspect of it, like you're expected to be a very serious student. And so, you know, I mean, there are a lot of very challenging courses that you're going to be taking that have nothing to do with musical theater. But I also think that our, our program also takes that academic rigor and applies it. So it's not really just about being a great performer. It's also about being a real student of the art form and studying it and coming from that scholarly perspective, which again, goes into what Jess is talking about, which is, it's not all about producing stars on Broadway.

There is this understanding that like these scholars of the form will go off and become the top casting director, or you got winning composer lyricist teams, or, you know, like and when those gifts are discovered in the setting, they're really nurtured. Like if you're not asked to wait, focus on the performing and then get back to those things, the whole department comes together to nurture those skills. So there's a, there's just a scholarly aspect to it that I think, I don't know that it's different than other schools, but it, to me, it has always been very important about Michigan.

[12:34] Charlie Murphy: Can we try to put some kind of number or approximate number to that academic balance of it all? Something I've been challenging schools to do more and more recently, because so many schools will say, oh, we're really rigorous musical theater, but then there's also really academics. It's like, what does that mean in terms of how much time in 2025, how much time is a Michigan musical theater student spending in artistic classes versus academic classes? Do you have a sense of what that looks like in their schedule?

[13:03] Sydney Morton: I would say it's about one fourth to one third of their schedule is not musical theater related. Many of the students have minors that are not musical theater, and that number might even go up. You can also, one thing that's different is you can study abroad within our department. And again, that tends to be different than like a conservatory where you can't really step away from the core curriculum. And you can study abroad and study performance or something completely different. And I have a lot of friends who had double majors or minors and they would leave for a year sometimes to go study abroad and devote themselves to that, come back, graduate after a fifth year with the program. So sort of things like that, that.

[13:52] Jessica Boevers Bogart: It can vary from like one-third or one-fourth to even half of your time.

[13:58] Sydney Morton: And how ubiquitous do you think that is in the program? I guess I would say from our end of knowing students who are interested in Michigan, there are absolutely some who go, my God, that is the dream program because I'm interested in this many academics and this much musical theater while still maintaining a level of rigor in a musical theater that you might not get at a BA program where you're open to these academics. But I also know there's a lot of people who are just really interested in Michigan's musical theater program and they go, but I guess in terms of the admitted students, in terms of the sort of feeling of the class, does it feel like they are all like really scholar-athletes or I'm saying scholar-artists, right?

Do they feel like they are really like, hey, we all are really interested in academics and musical theater? Or are there some in the class who are sort of like, yeah, I'll take my academics and I did well in high school, but I'm really here to sing and dance? Like how, what does that feel like in terms of the breakdown of the class?

[14:46] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Absolutely. Each class, each year has, you know, different numbers on that, but we really pride ourselves on being a choose your own adventure and that those things may change after you arrive. And so absolutely there's the kids there that are musical theater passionate and that's where their heart lies, but finding out, oh, I can go abroad. Oh, I can do these things after sometimes that changes midstream for some of them.

[15:15] Sydney Morton: And do you feel like, oh, please say it, go ahead.

[15:15] Jessica Boevers Bogart: I was just going to say too. And like, again, I think that the definition of musical theater is so broad. Like those, the students you see who that becomes their singular focus. There's so much within that. They start producing their own works. They start, you know, and then they're taking classes on producing and things like that. So it feels like it's very rare that it's just like tunnel vision, singing, dancing, acting. Like there, it always has this kind of free flowing, growing feel.

[15:44] Sydney Morton: Yeah. Do you feel like with the students where it's closer to half? I mean, like, I love that you just sort of expressed this, like about a third to it. Like it can change based on sort of what the student wants. Do you feel like there are times when, when there's only a half that that person is maybe getting a less rigorous musical theater education than they would at a conservatory? Is there anything where you feel like, hey, there's a little bit of something that's suffered because we're not getting as much dance. We're not getting as much singing, not getting as much acting as we might get at, like Jesse went to a CCM, a more conservatory like experience.

[16:09] Jessica Boevers Bogart: I mean, I may have just a weak memory, but I feel like it's everything I had plus. And I do feel that that is one of the great challenges of college in general is finding balance and, and erring in those, in, in both directions, perhaps, you know, and figuring out all that. And, and, and that's okay. That's what, that's what it's for, especially the first two years. Maybe you do take on too many academics. And so some of your work falls back and we sit with the kids and talk, okay, you know, how can we change things for next year? So that balance becomes easier for you. Or, or we also often are heard saying, this is what it is to be an actor is that you have to be in so many lanes at once. So some of it's just stamina, right?

[17:04] Sydney Morton: Yeah. We were talking before the pod about what it is to have a toddler and be in this business. And so there's a lot of juggling that goes on sometimes in this business in general. We did a little bit of a curricular run through with both Mark Madama and then Michael McCurry in those episodes. I won't do a full like curriculum run through for you guys, but I'd love to just hear like a little bit about how you're seeing the curriculum in 2025. If there are any changes or shifts to the curriculum in terms of ways it's being updated in the past couple of years, or anything that you're bringing from your perspective of going, Hey, I really think here's a tweak or here's an adjustment that we're trying to stay current with.

[17:29] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Yeah. I mean, one of the big changes, which is really fun for Jess and me is that our intro to acting course, which is for the first years is a year long course now. So for the entirety of the program up until this past year, that was only a one semester acting class in your first year in the department. And now we have this like luxury of having twice as much time with all of the first years and allows us to just introduce so many different aspects of acting and vocal production and physical work and all of those things. So that's been a huge shift. And I think we're always having a conversation too about how much performing first years should be doing and things like that. So that's kind of...

[18:22] Sydney Morton: One of the big questions our students often ask is going, Can I perform freshman year? And often we're like, is that really the most important thing to you is that you get to perform in a show your freshman year? Right. And from an academic standpoint, there is a lot to learn. So nothing has really changed in that regard, but it is a conversation that I think we're constantly having.

[18:40] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Yep. And I'd love to hear, and Jess, I'll let you jump into if there's anything curriculum change you want to talk about, but I'd love to also share just like the way that at least as much as you've been privy to these conversations and your thought patterns on it of like, how does Michigan think about what it is to stay current? Because I just think there's a danger when you're thought of as one of the top schools, which I think certainly Michigan's in those conversations for this is a school that everyone is interested in and wants to go to. There's the risk of complacency. I know that's... I went to Carnegie Mellon. That was certainly true of our... We would all say it about our alma mater that it's fantastic, but man, things are the same way they've been for 20 years.

And then all of a sudden, our whole faculty is now gone and it's a completely new faculty that's totally different. So I'm like, okay, cool. That seems a little extreme too. It's a little tricky of like, how much are you bringing in those fresh perspectives and updating things versus this wonderful program that has been built that we're talking about Brent Wagner, Mark McDonnell. There's all these years that Linda, you mentioned, so many amazing faculty members have built this program. I guess, how do you think about like changing and updating, staying current versus keeping the baby with the bathwater in terms of, I guess, what's worked there?

[19:39] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Yeah, I think that exact balance is... I mean, that is so much of our conversation. I think just having new teachers coming in and bringing our own curriculum to our classes has already been a big sea change as far as we're teaching, bringing in a textbook now, freshman year, like the Respect for Acting, Uta Hagen, and we're teaching viewpoints, the Ann Bogart, Tina Landau, physical theater, and Patsy Rodenberg with voice production. I think a lot of that is new ground and frantic assembly, like the companies that are doing stuff that we're keeping our finger on the pulse, and then being very conscious to know the giant shoulders that we're standing on that came before us and making sure to have lunches with Brent Wagner and call Mark Madama and the faculty that have been there through the whole thing and make sure we are in constant conversation about what brought Michigan to be such an exciting program.

So, toggling between those two things of making sure we are... And assessing exactly what you asked initially, which is what students need in this day and age to move into the world. So, I would say that is just constantly reassessing and we are in constant collaboration as a faculty about it all and making sure we are in all of those lanes constantly is our challenge. And I feel like as long as we're prioritizing that, we're succeeding in making sure we're in all those things simultaneously, in those lanes simultaneously.

[21:41] Sydney Morton: Are there things that you see like, hey, in the next five years, in order to stay current with the business, that are there shifts in other new things alongside expanding that freshman acting class that you go, I would guess Michigan's going to have this, do you have feelings of those adaptations?

[21:54] Jessica Boevers Bogart: I mean, I think that the culture around auditioning is really in flux right now. I mean, we're talking way more self tapes, way faster turnarounds, more material a lot of the time. So, I think we kind of have to teach two skills, which is like how to do the deep nuanced work that we all crave and love and want to bring into a rehearsal room. And then also how to like audition well with all of these expectations and logistics and changes. So, I think that's always a conversation that we're having. And like, again, having this like year long acting class with the first years, we were able to dive into a lot of that conversation in a way that we hadn't before. And I think we'll keep adding it into the curriculum throughout the four years because we have to.

[22:53] Sydney Morton: Yep. And Lynn Schenkel is also newly full time on our faculty. And she, in the last couple of years, and has blown up what was like a New Works Festival into it's nonstop how many incredible talent artists and professionals we are bringing into work with the students. And that inherently keeps the students current and keeps, and between that and all the guests we bring in for master classes, I think that's a new direction as well. I think composition has sort of risen in the last couple of years in a way that is so exciting. I know Lynn got a great shout out. For those who don't listen to all the artist episodes, Helen Shen, who's an MDCA alum and also a Michigan alum, gave Lynn a great shout out of like this was inspirational for their journey to Broadway and all these cool things.

[23:54] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Let's talk a little bit about that launch into the business in terms of like, where is Michigan in 2025? When you talk about showcase in the industry prep, you know, I think Michael was discussing some of the updates that they were kind of really mid-COVID during that last conversation. What does that preparation look like in terms of what they're getting with what's on video, what's happening live in terms of what that preparation to launch into the business looks like?

[24:08] Sydney Morton: Yeah, I mean, that has also, I feel like since COVID, every year has been a completely new version of what is expected of all of these programs and showcase. One thing that has remained is that everybody still is doing a digital showcase. And this year we did ours in the Duderstadt, which is a facility on campus that has an incredible team of professional film and TV people. So that was really exciting. That felt like a whole additional production of our showcase that we created this really beautiful, polished footage for everybody to have as individuals, but also to send the whole showcase out to people. So that, I think we're realizing that that isn't just the digital showcase is not just a COVID reaction, that that's going to be a resource that we put some real time and care into every year from now on.

[25:26] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Anything else, Jess?

[25:26] Sydney Morton: I mean, I think things that have been in place for a little while about like Rachel Hoffman coming and really working with the students. I think, I feel like, you know, Sydney really took the reins on a lot of that this year. And I just feel like the students had such a huge advantage that you yourself are auditioning and really, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like she really gave them so much perspective on what it really means to, in real time, be putting yourself out there and how you have to adjust these practices. But yeah, I can't think of any other changes for the showcase.

[26:10] Charlie Murphy: Well, can we stay on this as maybe one of those broader questions that I jotted down to ask about? As we talk about sort of the launch into the business, I want to ask a question that I'm very well suited to ask, which is about ego. And just to sort of say like, you know, I remember hearing versions of like entering the industry of like, oh, Carnegie guys, they're great, except they got these huge egos. And I was like, what are you talking about? You haven't met me yet. How dare you? But I do think, you know, there's a different path entering the industry, which we all experience as, you know, people who went to schools that are very well thought of and well known, that you're going to enter the industry just in a different way.

And I guess I wonder if like, yeah, I guess wonder in terms of your experiences and also in terms of how you would like help coach a Michigan student of like, what their how their entry into the industry is going to be different than the kid who shows up, you know, from Indiana without a BFA and who's like, hitting the ground running and auditioning just I just do think it's a different experience of like, meeting the industry, but still finding and maintaining the hunger or whatever. So it's a different sort of different trajectories toward stardom, which happens and then the different trajectories that turn left and right. When you come from this well known program, Jess, you're smiling like you have so many things to say.

[27:16] Jessica Boevers Bogart: No, I want I actually want to start. Yeah, it's interesting. I thought I feel like I, you know, when I graduated in 2008, it felt like a really solid institution, the idea of showcase. But when I look back, it really hadn't existed all that long, going to New York and showcasing that all the BFA programs doing that it had been about.

[27:44] Sydney Morton: Yes, and I think we've been discussing this for like, I think like, 12 years of that, maybe. And so now, now it really is. Now it is like this given of like your school and their reputation are launching you into the industry. And I think Jess and I, you know, we co-directed the showcase and I think we were really interested in like, okay, sure. But like what happens if we treat this like, like a deeply personal issue.

[28:14] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Personal work and like, really talk about the storytelling. This is not just about like, ta-da! Thank you, Michigan, and I know you want me because of this degree. Like instead, and not to say that that ever was the case, but I think that it's easy to sort of start looking at things as a given.

[28:34] Sydney Morton: And so we, I think we surprised some of the students perhaps this year with how much we were asking them to like dig really deep and get really personal and really vulnerable in showcase. But I think that it made it feel really fresh and exciting. That it wasn't a sort of a, I don't know, paint by numbers sort of a thing, which at this point, I think showcases of all schools and in general have just been around so long that it sort of has become that.

[29:09] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Yeah. And as far as students coming into the rooms, we talk a lot about that starting first year, about work ethic and that humble confidence and that you do bring, you know, like, just bringing it down to like, just be awesome all the time, you know, and, and we, I do believe with the COVID years everywhere, and with some significant and important changes happening in rehearsal rooms, I also think, especially with students and young people, it was, it was a gentler time. And I think we're a little bit like, okay, like, like some things are never, will never and should never go back to the way they were. But rehearsal ethic, you know, like, practices and being your full open and bringing everyone in the room up around you.

And that being, we really work hard with that. And the kids are so loving and so wonderful. And, and, yeah, I think we really, I don't think that matters what school you go to. And I don't think it should change because you're from one of the top schools. If anything, I think there's, you know, with, you know, with great power comes great responsibility. I mean, you should be you should be walking into those rooms. And I said, you won't always see it from everyone. But, but our work ethic should always be with great respect for what's happening in the room, no matter what. And, and I tend to think of a few of those things as old school, even though it probably isn't. But you know, in my head, it is.

[31:02] Sydney Morton: And I will add, like you said, the individualism, I think we really tried to steer it away from this idea that you come out and you do your minute and a half, and then you go back and backstage and have a, you know, coffee break. Like we kept saying, this is an ensemble, we're in rehearsal together. It goes fast. All of your energy is feeding one another. So again, it's like, these things that started to kind of feel very repetitive, you go out and you do your number, it's showcase. Well, no, we're creating this piece together. Hopefully, in theory, brings a little bit more generosity into the room. You know, I definitely think it felt like a very generous space. And that felt, that felt really exciting.

[31:48] Jessica Boevers Bogart: It's awesome.

[31:48] Sydney Morton: Yeah. And I was speaking of like rehearsal rooms, like shows you go do too.

[31:52] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Yeah, totally. I now almost try to use the phrase launch into the business as opposed to just the, I think actors at 21 are only concerned about get the agent and then I'm done or whatever. But it is sort of like, and then what is that launch into the beginning of your career, which is still just the next step into the next couple jobs. It's like, it is not just about the first job and the first agent. It's also about like, then what is your reputation that you're building in the industry that's going to get you more Broadway shows than we can read on one podcast or whatever that that's a that's a long trajectory of a foundation that you're building that isn't just from from the one minute experience.

[32:25] Charlie Murphy: I'd love to talk about both of you in terms of being such successful working artists, educators yourself. How do you handle things now, if you want to work professionally? Right? I imagine if there's theater or TV and film, you can't necessarily do that from Michigan between classes. Is that something you both are taking a hiatus from? Is that something where if you want to have that happen, you're able to cover each other or they're able to be? How does that work when when professors in general, but especially when you guys do work from school?

[32:53] Sydney Morton: Well, I'm off directing a show right now in North Carolina. And last summer, I worked on nine with Andy Blankenbuehler at the Kennedy Center.

[33:00] Jessica Boevers Bogart: And my wife, no big deal, but your wife. And she's amazing. Yeah. And as are you. So she says she the school encourages us to go work. So we do cover each other. If, if I say if when Sidney books, some huge movie or TV show or Broadway show, like, yeah, we cover one another and the school. That was one of the big surprises for me when I was applying for the position that actually contractually, we are supposed to be working. And it's and I knew and I thought, great, but now that I'm doing it, it's great. Because I can come back to class and say, in all confidence, yes, this is how the room is still run. And this is what is expected of you. And this is what I am seeing and feel. So like, I felt confident about it from my memory, but doing it in real time and coming back and forth as it really is part of our jobs for a reason.

[34:09] Charlie Murphy: And you'll do that when nine comes to Broadway? When? I'm just doing a little I know, right? Next spring or when is that? Okay, just I'm in the same thing.

[34:21] Sydney Morton: So now give me a chance. Is anything you want to throw in there in terms of working in terms of with a young toddler?

[34:25] Jessica Boevers Bogart: I mean, well, if you have any answers for working with a young toddler, please send them my way. But in terms of the thing that's actually like just said, the most clear is that we are supposed to be doing this. It's like, you know, either you're researching and being published in journals or writing books, and that's a possibility as well. Or you're continuing to act. So I, you know, and everything is still self tapes for better or for worse. You know, I'm in New York right now, and I'm sending self tapes. So it's, it's actually more doable than I even anticipated. Film and TV, especially like, because a lot of those gigs are short term. So, you know, I was able to shoot a guest star in first semester and just miss like, a day of classes and rehearsals.

[35:13] Sydney Morton: And you're back in.

[35:13] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Yeah, yeah.

[35:15] Charlie Murphy: Okay, I'm gonna give the two of you a shot at a question that I ask a lot of schools, and which Mark Madama either won or failed at. I'm sorry, unclear. But I asked that, hey, why does a kid say no to Michigan? And he was like, well, they don't. I think it's refreshingly honest in some ways, but it's also not literally true. I mean, we this very year, we've had students turn down literally every school because it happened. Yeah, Julliard this year, it's like, it's gonna happen where you're gonna go. It's just anyway, but so, you know, maybe a slightly different way. But if a theoretical kid were to shut down Michigan, like, why do you think they would? Why do you find if there's anything that you could describe as maybe a weakness of the program or something where someone else might say, hey, this program seems stronger because of x? Why do you see that in Michigan? Where are the vulnerabilities?

[36:00] Sydney Morton: I say this the same exact way I say, I talk about this in the exact same way I do about auditioning. We don't, it's it's vibing, it's dating, you go to different campuses, and you feel where you have synergy. And it's not that you say, I don't want that you just like, I just feel I'm supposed to, I'm supposed to go to Michigan. I'm on campus, and I'm feeling I'm supposed to go to CCM. I'm supposed, you know, it's it's who you met while you were there might might have been the weather when you visit campus, you know, who knows what it is. But it's, it's that for me, it's, I teach auditioning in the same way you're looking at the people on the other side of the table. And are we supposed to work together?

Do we have chemistry? And that's, so I don't, I don't know that it's about certain, sure, you can analyze the different programs and see where their strengths and weaknesses lie. But I don't know if any of that's, it's really much more about the matchmaking and the, and the, and the chemistry, in my opinion.

[37:00] Jessica Boevers Bogart: I think that is a very true answer. But Sidney, would you give us any weakness? I want some vulnerability from this. You guys are teaching vulnerability. Is there some, what is there something that you found people to go, hey, you know what, in the dating of it all, this is why I wasn't vibing with Michigan. Here's what it was about the school that maybe was a turnoff for me.

[37:18] Sydney Morton: The academia, it's the academia. I don't know what's going on in Michigan. I went to CCM because I could never have handled that rigor at that age. No way, no how. So it's greatest strength is also for some students, probably its greatest weakness.

[37:37] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Yeah, totally works for me and for you. It was great. And also, I think I like that you are also already said that just because you're not necessarily completely a scholar athlete doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't work for you too. There could as long as you have enough interest. So there were say both sides of that positive and negative have been said in this pod.

[37:55] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Okay, let's take a break. And on the back end, we're going to talk about auditions and admissions a little bit. Just noting again, some of those other questions like costing curriculum that we normally go through, we didn't go as deep into. So do check out those the conversation with Mark and Michael if you want to hear more about that as well. But we're back in a flash with Sidney and Jessica.

[38:10] Charlie Murphy: Okay, we're back with Jessica and Sidney. And we want to answer the question on all of our listeners minds. How do I get into Michigan for the love of God? This is what they want to know. So do we have secret answers of how they get into Michigan? But maybe maybe before we get into that secret, which we'll promise to try to do, can we talk a little bit just about the longer process of it all? And I would take any approximate numbers that you want to share, but just the general sense of like, what it looks like if I'm going to get into Michigan, what it looks like from the pre screen process through the callback audition and into those final yeses. So if you have a sense of like how many apply in a given year, maybe last year, to be given how many audition slots to get into those 20 some yeses? What does that look like? On your end?

[38:51] Jessica Boevers Bogart: I think it was like 1300 applicants.

[38:53] Sydney Morton: Yeah.

[38:54] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Yeah, using a little higher than 1300. But and then it do has general sense. Again, it can be approximate of how many then got the callback audition.

[39:03] Sydney Morton: About third, right? Like, yeah, 100 to 500, 500 to 20.

[39:06] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Yeah, sure. But so let's talk about that. Because the reason I start with that is to talk about the kind of different versions of that cut is like, if we start with the pre screen audition, specifically, do you have a sense of like, what's being looked for in getting from 15 to five? I imagine it's some of the same things that gets into the 500 to 20. But is there anything that's a little bit different when you're looking at the pre screen of, you know, Mark always gave the answer of like, don't give me a reason to say no to you, right? But like, is there something in terms of like, what you're looking for? What which would put you into the thousand nos versus the 500 yeses?

[39:43] Sydney Morton: Breathing? Breathing? Yes.

[39:48] Jessica Boevers Bogart: No need to sing. You just breathe.

[39:51] Sydney Morton: Yeah, yeah, you know, it's, I can tell you what it's not, it's not perfection. And you can tell, this is gonna sound really obtuse, but you can tell when someone is seeking perfection in their performance, rather than sharing and showing us their joy and showing us their creativity, you know, and we have all of these opportunities in the pre screens and in the application, like, to show us what kind of a person you are. And again, it's like, we are not looking for a perfect person, we're looking for a person and, and we say this a lot, but like, are they going to be a good community, community member? You know, so,

[40:37] Jessica Boevers Bogart: and where do you think you're picking up community members that from the wildcard from the I mean, are you getting from the slate? Are you getting from the material choice? Like what what is making you go? That's a Michigan community member.

[40:47] Sydney Morton: Essays, recommendation letters, wildcards. You know, there's a lot of open endedness in terms of doing like a dance combination. And even that can tell you a lot like the, the music and the self expression. Again, I'm not saying best technique. It's like, this is an opportunity to share and you can you can tell who really wants to just be like, open, open hearted, you know. So and that doesn't mean you can't be edgy or rock and roll or any of those things. It's just about the genuineness, you know. So but we really do read and look at everything. So those letters, you know, when there's a special detail from a former

[42:06] Jessica Boevers Bogart: And now we're trying to get from 500 down to 20. What makes someone ultimately lean toward more of the yes pile versus the no pile in the live experience?

[42:13] Jessica Boevers Bogart: I mean, all kidding aside, breathing like…

[42:17] Charlie Murphy: Breathing again. Can't we just breathe? We're all breathing. Like, all I have to do is walk in and breathe? What's all this work for then? My gosh.

[42:27] Jessica Boevers Bogart: It's really just a yoga program. Just being able to bring yourself and when the student is walking in and they're holding their breath and they're so… that we don't get to meet them and know them, it's really… and we do all we can to help them relax in the room and find that. But that's, you know, all kidding aside, whatever yoga you need to do in the hall or whatever you need to do and figuring out what that is maybe before that day. Performing in front of, you know, doing programs like yours, performing in front of people that make you so nervous so you start to understand what happens to me when those nerves rise in me and what practices can I put in place before I walk in the door so that when I walk in, I'm most fully myself. So I think I struggled with that back then.

[43:28] Charlie Murphy: So I'm not kidding. No, I know. It may give you a hard time, but I know you're not kidding. And it's something I talk about all the time and parents especially get so frustrated with me. Like, it can't just be that. Like, all I talk about is psychology. What about the work? I'm like, it is the work, but it is also showing up. Like, when people say you walk in the room and you can tell, like, that's almost always true. But it's not as easy as that. It's not like you can just walk in the room and be good. Like, that takes a lot of preparation to get to the place where you can show up presently and actually breathe. Yeah. You know, that's a tricky thing. So it takes a lot of preparation, hopefully, in some of the ways you're saying, in the right way, so that you're not showing up tight and coached.

You're showing up in a place where you can be present. I think it's a deeper understanding of knowing what is meant to be will be and being okay with that, which is so hard, I know, when you have your heart set on a program.

[44:18] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Wait a second. You can't give me Que Sera Sera and The Secret in the same... Those are two divergent philosophies. You're like, I'm putting it on the world and this will be true, but also whatever happens, happens. No.

[44:26] Charlie Murphy: Isn't that what it is? You're supposed... That is what The Secret is. You're supposed to put it out there and then let it go, right?

[44:30] Jessica Boevers Bogart: It's a balance. You're supposed to focus on it, know it, and then... you have your destination, but your hands are loose on the wheel. You're going... You're not too tight with your grip.

[44:44] Charlie Murphy: I totally agree. Okay. While we're talking about live auditions, do you have a sense of a 2025, 2026 look in terms of, like, those live options? I know in years past, it's been only Chicago Unifieds for musical theater and then on campus, meaning not in New York and LA. Is that still the case for as much as you know?

[45:01] Jessica Boevers Bogart: You guys should come to the Midwest. You've got to come to the Midwest, and people do. For you guys that come to the Midwest. For other schools, they might not be willing to go, but how... And then how does the live online factor in, in terms of, for the current year? Is that still potentially an option? They could do a live Zoom?

[45:13] Sydney Morton: Yeah. We always have a Zoom day.

[45:15] Jessica Boevers Bogart: I love it. I'd love to talk just a little bit, you know, other than the fact that they must be respiratory and breathing in some ways, just what else you're thinking about as you're filling out a class? Of course, you're considering talent. You're considering who they are as human beings. I'd love to talk about, like, are you thinking about stuff like gender balance and height balance and the size balance, specifics of racial diversity, diversity of ability, geographical balance? How does that work out when you're trying to get to 22 names? How does it all work in terms of what you're thinking about as you ultimately lead to a yes or a no?

[45:49] Sydney Morton: Oh, we definitely are. We want to make sure that there are so many different types of people represented, you know, because becoming a better actor is also about becoming a person who is so fully realized, right? And so that all factors in just in terms of the community aspect. But I mean, also just like from the casting side of things, we want to have, we want to make sure that there isn't so much overlap, that people are going to be in competition with one another, that they really can come up together as a cohort. So yeah, we're definitely factoring in that diversity of people.

[46:28] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I love it. Okay, now I promised this, so I'm taking a step back. I wanted to give a little bit of like, you both have worked not only for different universities, but also like a little bit like MTCA when you talk about Broadway Collective and some of these other places I saw in both of your bios, you've worked with high school students who are looking at colleges. So I'd love to sort of like talk about like, what have you noticed in terms of, you know, Jess mentioned breathing being so important. Are there places where you feel like students today are kind of misstepping or misunderstanding the process? What have you learned about the process of, you know, applying for schools in ways that may be different than when we were doing it back in the day? And like how students really are successful or what students do maybe where you go, oh, this is the myth. If I could reach across the table and give you this, I'd give you what?

[47:15] Jessica Boevers Bogart: I think the word process is really important. I mean, I can't speak for other schools, but I will say that like expect to work with us in the room. Like do not get so rigid in your like polished performance that when we ask you to do it again and make an adjustment, it's either you can't apply it or it derails you, you know? So I think just knowing that like this is an opportunity to work together, not necessarily coming in and impressing us with a performance and then, you know, just outperforming 1,299 other kids. You know what I mean? Like what an impossible thing. We want to see that we can work together. And so I just would really, part of the breathing is also like just being open to working and being in process the whole time.

[48:17] Sydney Morton: Yeah, which takes bravery. And I do believe in that setting, especially auditioning for schools, that kind of, and you can't fake this if you're not feeling it, but that kind of fearlessness and that to be able to take direction and make a big, you know, take risks, even if it means falling on your face right there in front of us, that is really exciting to watch any artist able to do that in real time. And so I guess that's really starting to have that game, I'm game for anything attitude as you're walking in and know that we're, that it's more impressive, you know, it's more impressive to see someone jumping off cliffs right in front of you, like taking those big chances than it is like taking an adjustment and it feeling perfect. There, there, there's no such thing.

[49:13] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Yep. And we joke about sort of releasing, but it's certainly a takeaway I've made before on this pod of like, I do think it is something that this generation, it's, it, there is a bravery in the lack of control in a way that feels a little different than 20 years ago. Like, it just feels like actors have different stuff that they're, we had different stuff we were dealing with, but it wasn't like, there's a level of control that I think a lot of young people have and want, you know, they wanted to go exactly how they expected to go more than I think we did in our day. We were messier and had different issues, less technique at times, but I was a little more, it was easier for my generation to sort of be like, whatever, let's see what happens. And like, I feel like that's hard for 17, 18 year olds today.

[49:49] Sydney Morton: That beginner's mindset was really helpful. Like we truly were, we didn't, I didn't think I knew a whole lot and I didn't, you know? And so maybe there's a little bit of that too, just remembering that we're all coming in the room, not knowing one another, a beginner's mindset is really helpful.

[50:06] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Okay. As we move toward wrapping up here, and as I hear Sidney's evidence of parenthood sneaking into the background, I want to talk a little bit about the parents of, no, it would not be the first child on this pod. We had a whole professor do it with a bouncing baby on here. Okay. Okay. Good. But I want to talk a little bit about the parents in this process. Just anything you want to share with parents who are kind of figuring out how to support their young artists as they go through this process. I know Jess, you have two young ones who are about to go through this process, not so far away. Hopefully, God forbid, not in the musical theater world, we'll find out. But what do you see in terms of how you've, if you experienced parents who are going through this, how do they best support their young artists?

[50:46] Jessica Boevers Bogart: I think it's really important to visit the schools. I think there's so much, you know, when the students get on campus that they feel that a lot of what Sydney was speaking to, that there's something more than just the program. It's where you're spending four years. I think as much as the parents cannot have their hearts in their throats that the kids have to go to one specific school or two, that the parents make sure that they broaden their minds and understand that so many different programs and different wonderful things to offer and that their kids are going to be all right no matter, truly no matter. I feel like, you know, I've watched kids, the paths I've watched, I had a student start in musical theater then switch to culinary and now she's pre-med.

It's like, and it's exactly how it had to happen. She had to go through all of that to be on this path in confidence and with her own desires. So as much as parents can understand for themselves, even though they're hoping this one place is the place, it just, no one knows. No one knows. So that's, I think the way parents can support in the best way is helping the students prepare all the things they need to do for all these different, but to be, to assure their child endlessly that no matter what happens, they're going to find their way.

[52:18] Sydney Morton: Jess, I mean, Sydney, anything you'd add in terms of the parents of it all?

[52:22] Sydney Morton: Yeah. I mean, to that point that Jess was bringing up, I think more than ever, I'm realizing that like artists will save the world, you know? And I think shifting that mindset of like, oh, this is a scary niche industry and what are the odds and knowing that like, I'm obsessed with musical theater people. I married one. I am one. I work with them. Like I have, and I have watched all of us. I don't know another community that pivots more, that is braver in terms of stepping into new paths and then miraculously has this playfulness, this sense of community, this understanding of reading people, this radical empathy, like all of these beautiful traits and can public speak and do all of these things that can lead them into so many different careers.

I saw this woman on TikTok, so it's very true. I saw her say, like, all of my friends who got BFAs in musical theater are employed, and I don't just mean in musical theater. And that means something. Like anymore, this is a beautiful education to get. And so, yeah, it's not about like just the biggest school or the most competitive school or all of those things, like just really trusting that this is a really beautiful path and there are going to be some amazing opportunities in people and education on this path.

[53:50] Charlie Murphy: So what a perfect place to wrap our fresh faces of Michigan episode. You mentioned TikTok. I think it's the first time in 200 episodes TikTok has been brought up by a professor, meaning they were consuming it themselves. I'm really impressed. Do I admit that I don't have my own TikTok? Someone sent it to me on Instagram.

[54:07] Sydney Morton: You're a true millennial.

[54:09] Charlie Murphy: That's a true millennial of mine. I checked it on Instagram a week later. That's exactly right. I love it. Well, if people do want more information on Michigan, is there a place you would direct them to? Is it TikTok? Is it some other social media? Is it the website? Do we like a paper brochure? How would people find out more information if they wanted to on Michigan?

[54:25] Jessica Boevers Bogart: I think our social media is doing a really good job right now. So, yeah, I think, I mean, I can't speak for our TikTok if there is one, but I think our Instagram is great. And yeah, I love it. And the website. OK, awesome. Well, thank you guys for the time. I really appreciate how much your generosity and getting to spend some time with you both.

[54:41] Sydney Morton: Thank you.

[54:47] Jessica Boevers Bogart: Thank you so much.

[54:53] Charlie Murphy: Oh, yes, yes, yes. So fun to chat with Sydney and Jessica. Does everyone out there know what the secret is? I think our parent listeners for the most part will, but for our student listeners, this might be one you have to Google or ask chat GPT or whatever the kids are doing these days. We really are aging ourselves as millennials with how much we talk about the secret on this episode. A bunch of takeaways I'm going to hit just rapid fire here. First off, I really like that answer about academic balance. You know, I'm asking all the schools now really about how you kind of phrase your academic balance with the artistic. You know, specifically, this answer was kind of that.

[56:28] Charlie Murphy: I kind of hinted at this analogy in the interview, but maybe I'll finish it for you here, which is like when elite sport colleges, so colleges that have elite sports programs, that they'll kind of label their programs as emphasizing the scholar-athlete. In this case, it would be the scholar-theatrical-athlete, I guess, right? I think it is notable and important when they do that, but also that there's also a sliding scale of what that can mean to be a scholar-athlete or to be a scholar-artist in this case, right? For some schools with sports programs, like we had the Josh Normans of the world that Joe Roscoe talked about a few episodes back, the athletes are really just trying to get the easiest classes they can pass, right?

But of course, there are those schools out there with a real strong tradition of the combination of athletics and academics. For instance, there are students who go to Duke because they love that it is an Ivy League-level academic school and that they can also play basketball on this really reputable basketball team, right? But if you're Jason Tatum, as smart as I think Jason Tatum probably is, he's attending Duke a lot more for the basketball of it all than for the academics, given that he left after one year and he always knew he was going to leave after one year to go to the NBA, right? So I think that's kind of the metaphor I was trying to extend or at least hint at with Michigan is that there are people who are there explicitly for that balance of rigorous academics, and then there are students who just really love the musical theater program and attend more for that end of things, despite the fact that they're going to need to be able to handle a slightly higher academic load—I shouldn't even say slightly—a higher academic load than they would have to at a conservatory-style program, but it might not be the reason that they're going there.

For some of our students, it is totally the reason they're going there, and for some, it's more about the musical theater program. So it's a bit of a both-and there. I think I hinted at the episode, but I just want to kind of clean that up a little bit.

[58:13] Charlie Murphy: I also really like the conversation about showcase and talking about kind of the personalization of who you are as a person and not just hitting the beats of what a showcase is. I think such a strong parallel to the college audition process here that it's not about getting it right or doing, you know, sort of what are the expected beats, but about bringing your human self into the room. I always say this, and it is hard for our students to believe, but colleges are not accepting the best 22—or whatever the number is—the best 22 performances that they see on a numerical basis, right? It is just not about the performances. It's about the people behind those performances, right? They're accepting students into their program that they want to teach and learn with.

And the same thing is really true on the showcase end. It's not the most talented 10 performers from a class that automatically get the best showcase results. It's about what are those industry representatives looking for from a human being perspective in a long-term relationship, a long-term business relationship that they might be forming, right? You know, that can get into what kind of people they already have on their roster for sure, as well as stuff that like what might be hot in the industry stylistically, but just this parallel being of like what it is to meet the human being in what they bring to the table and not just the performance that's like scored like numerically like Olympic judges. That's just not what either of those processes actually are.

[59:34] Charlie Murphy: And then I guess I just want to clean up my question a little bit. You know, I sort of hinted at the ego and I made that self-effacing joke about like, you know, the ego of it all. But when we were talking about that in terms of what it could be to go to one of these programs, just in case it's not clear, I actually mean that word ego less with the root of being like what is egotistical and really more just about like the confidence of where you can come from when you come from a really well-known school. Maybe to stick with our sports analogies a bit. I think it can be like the difference between being a first round draft pick and what those expectations are versus being a second round draft pick or even going undrafted, right?

It's just that it will alter the path of your entry into the industry a bit. Our next artist episode that we're going to go to next week is with Curtis Holland, who didn't attend a BFA program at all. And you're going to hear about his path, you know, and we always say there is just, there's not one way into the industry, but there are so many different diverse paths. There's the LeBron James of it all being the first overall pick. There's the Nikola Jokic of it all being at the end of the second round, just near the end of the draft. And then there's like the Ben Wallace of it all being completely undrafted and having to make your way into the NBA that way. They're all ending up in the same basketball hall of fame.

They end up at the same place, but they have a really different feeling path to get there. And I do think some of the danger that I was speaking to, you know, having come from one of these programs is that there can be a kind of complacency of expectation if you come out of schools that have those kinds of expectations, right? The equivalent of being a first round draft pick, right? There's a kind of responsibility to maintain that hunger that I think is different than when you come out with no expectations, you know, you might have to have that competitive fire and that hunger, right? It's just different opportunities and different paths. And I think if you could choose a path that you're going to take numerically, many are going to choose being a first round draft pick when you just look at, you know, the statistics of it all.

But just knowing that the work doesn't stop there, that it's not like I'm drafted in the first round. I'm done. I made it, right? Nothing is guaranteed in this business. And you still have to work hard and keep striving when you hit the ground out of school. And I'm just not sure that everyone understands that sort of coming from different programs. Sometimes it can be, there's different struggles and different challenges that you have coming from a first round draft pick versus being undrafted.

[1:01:49] Charlie Murphy: I also just wanted to hit, I'm going to be a devil's advocate, which I don't do a ton on this podcast, but I'm going to do a little bit of that on the like idea of working faculty. So I think so many schools are going to bring that up as kind of an unadulterated good. Look, we have so many working faculty. We encourage our faculty to work. And this is really not specific to Michigan. I'm just using this as a launching off point. I will say in general that yes, I am a fan of having faculty that are current on industry standards. And I totally agree that there can be a danger if none of the faculty have been active in the business for let's say 20 years. That said, there really are pluses and minuses with the amount of work that faculty do while in a given semester.

You're trading a currentness and a kind of thumb on the pulse, finger on the pulse for the possibility that your professor will suddenly be gone in the middle of a semester. And even if they aren't gone mid-semester, I will say that just in general, when I look at the landscape of all these programs and all the ways their faculty can work and not work, and again, this is nothing specific about these two wonderful people you served at Michigan, that the more actively working faculty members you have, the less likely they are to be permanent fixtures at the university level, right? There is something to faculty who are committed to being part of the program and growing it as their main career.

That's not to say that it's not great if they still work in the summers and all that, and they try to do everything they can to stay current. I think it's really important. But if you do have faculty who are leaving all the time to do Broadway shows, who are in big movies, who are working at that level, that's not necessarily better than someone who has some of that know-how but is really committed to the university experience with the fullness of their being, right? I'll just say that is certainly true when you look at many of the titans who have built these great programs. They had that industry cred, but they were really committed full-time to their universities for the most part, right? And you know, I think that active work, when you see that active work really current working on Broadway, that can feel really exciting from a student perspective.

But I just want to point out the pluses and minuses that you consider. We've talked also about like, you know, when you're in New York City and they're actively working while they're teaching, what that could mean in terms of, you know, missing specific classes. But I even just think in general, the more actively working are, a little bit maybe more, the more likely they are to not necessarily be part of the program for 30 years if they still really have an active career, right? And you know, my dream in general, I guess, would be to have a faculty that is like constantly five years out of being a full-time actor. Like they really did it and then now they've really committed it. Or maybe it's about a little bit of a balance like, you know, continually bringing in a certain percentage of fresh blood, fresh faculty members who are bringing a currentness to it, but also then maintaining an integrity of the institution and not reinventing the wheel with nothing but brand new faculty and constantly brand new faculty.

So there's not like one right way to do it. I don't think it's a singular right answer, but just to speak a bit toward like what I observe, which is that when too large a percentage of the faculty is right out of the industry and brand new to education or is still actively working, you know, especially if you're actively working in a way that is beyond the part-time. It's not about when I'm at voiceovers or just in the summers. When you're actively working, like you might be doing a Broadway contract, it can sometimes mean those programs momentum can be stalled a bit and possibly that you're not going to retain the long-time faculty in a way that can build a program in the same way. Again, no right, right, one right answer.

And you can never know, is this person when they say they're here really going to be here? Often you'll hear me ask a professor, I'm like, are you gonna, you think you're gonna be here for the long run? And they're never gonna be like, no, I'll probably leave in two years. But it's just worth noting that like the potential downside to what it is a really actively working faculty, even though of course we know the upside and how good it is to be current and know all that. So I just want to play a little bit of devil's advocate to that. Again, not specific to these two people.

[1:05:38] Charlie Murphy: Okay. And last but not least, let's talk a little bit about breathing. I made too many jokes about breathing on the podcast. I was too, went one time too many times to the well there with Jessica, but I do really want to say, of course, what she said, it is so important. And it's something we talk so often at MTCA in the strategy of like how you set up your audition structure is trying to find a way that you can breathe and be present in audition rooms, which basically always means some version of practicing high pressure situations, which feel high stakes to you and getting better at breathing in them. You know, and it's never just about breathing as we talked about, of course. Right. Like, but I like how Jessica said, if we can't meet you, right.

If the breathing prevents us from meeting you. So it's certainly possible that you can breathe, be totally present and not have a successful audition. Right. It doesn't, it doesn't guarantee that you'll have a successful audition just because you're breathing and being present. But the inverse is not true, right? If you're not breathing and you're not present, it is really hard to have a successful audition, right? Or that often the lack of breath is going to get in the way of you having your most successful edition, at least. Right. And for those who are regular listeners, I would say this is very similar to those conversations we've had many times about adrenaline, right? We've had that in many different forms in the podcast.

For some people, it is helpful, I think, to focus on breathing and the breath itself as a way to calm the nervous system and get themselves in a positive place. I think that works for a lot of people. For others, I think the breath can sometimes be more of a symptom than a cause. And actually, they don't want to focus as much on the breath, but maybe focus on their psychology or maybe on a physical action, something that takes them away from the idea of breathing. And maybe that will help calm the breath itself. But we're just using different words and ideas to get to the idea of a present, focused, alive state where the best auditioning happens. Some people would add in other words, the present, focused, alive.

Some people might add a word like calm, but I'm always cautious to say calm because to me, the best auditions don't necessarily happen when you're calm, just when you're under control and alive and present. Right. And I think sometimes young actors, they have this expectation that they're going to walk into an audition like they're in the middle of a meditation and they'll have that kind of breath. And I think for many people, that is an unrealistic expectation that can actually throw them off their game because they're never able to achieve that level of calm. And then their head being like, hey, why am I, why is my heart beating too fast? Why am I not at that level of calm? And it almost then makes them less calm.

Right. Again, every human being is different. But that idea of being able to feel like you are your best self, even in the high stakes adrenalized state, that's the key, right? In whatever form your best self is and how that will manifest. And definitely one of the telltale signs that you might not be in your best state is whether or not you're on your breath, right? You can tell when you see someone who's not breathing that you go, well, I don't think we're necessarily in that present alive state.

[1:08:28] Charlie Murphy: All right. Well, that is quite enough takeaways for one episode. So let's wrap it there. This episode of Mapping the College Edition was produced by Megan Cordier and Kelly Prendergrass with social media work by Jordan Rice. You know, you can like and subscribe to us wherever you listen to podcasts, rate and review us if you're feeling generous and follow us on all socials media. Or of course, just catch our TikToks a week later at Mapping the College Edition on Instagram. And as always, check us out at mtca.com for help with your individual college prep needs. To my young artists out there mapping their journeys, please trust that you are enough exactly as you are right now. Now keep striving and keep breathing. We'll catch you next week.