This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Charlie Russell: Hello and welcome to the Mischief Makers podcast. I'm Charlie Russell and today I have the joy of speaking to Fred Gray, actor, director, dad, all-time great person. Hello.

[0:12] Fred Gray: Hello.

[0:13] Charlie Russell: Oh, this is so exciting. Okay, now we'll start with telling the listeners a little bit about you. Currently you are the Associate Director on Peter Pan Goes Wrong. That's right?

[0:23] Fred Gray: Yes.

[0:24] Charlie Russell: Brilliant. But let's go back to the Fred Gray origin story because it's pretty cool. You went to RADA?

[0:29] Fred Gray: I went to RADA.

[0:30] Charlie Russell: With?

[0:31] Fred Gray: With the one and only Harry Kershaw.

[0:33] Charlie Russell: He is the one and only. He really is. He's the best. And you met him there?

[0:40] Fred Gray: I met him there. We got on like a house on fire. And the way that I got into Mischief, which was nine, ten years ago now, which is madness.

[0:51] Charlie Russell: It was, well, the first thing you did was Peter Pan with us?

[0:54] Fred Gray: Peter Pan. No, it was the Peter Pan tour, the UK tour.

[0:57] Charlie Russell: That's right. Yeah, yeah.

[0:58] Fred Gray: And I think you guys, obviously you did it at the Pleasants.

[1:04] Charlie Russell: We'd done the Pleasants in 2013.

[1:06] Fred Gray: I remember I went to see it and I lost my mind. I went to see it to see Harry in this show called Peter Pan Goes Wrong. And I remember sitting there just being like, I've never seen, I hadn't seen Play That Goes Wrong. I didn't really know anything about Mischief at the time. And I remember the bed, the bed dropped. I was crying. I was absolutely beside myself. And I was, I said to Harry afterwards, I need to do this. Like, I need to be in this. It's the first thing I'd seen for ages where I was like, I need to somehow be involved in this show. And maybe Harry held on to that because then maybe six months later, you guys said to each other that you could bring in two people each to audition for the show, and I was one of Harry's picks to come in and audition.

And I got the understudy. And that was a big thing because I was like, oh, I've never understudied before. Didn't know what that was. But I was so keen to be involved. And obviously, like one of the best decisions in terms of my career that I've ever made because of the sort of step that went. And did that for nine months. Flew Peter Pan. It's part of my job.

[2:20] Charlie Russell: Oh, you were part of the flying team.

[2:22] Fred Gray: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Heavily dyspraxic, so a really bad role for me to do. I remember there was, I was flying with a guy called Adrian and we had like a flying system where we had like marks on the stage, but we did flags with LX tape. So it was like we had like five guys, we had Nigeria, we had Columbia, and they would mark like using LX, different colors of X. And then so if those two flags matched up on your two ropes, that was the right point. So you'd be like, OK, go to Columbia. And I remember the second show, I just flew Peter Pan off. Off stage. And I just had Adrian showing me in the darkness. Go to Nigeria, which is obviously a really weird, really weird moment. Because when does that, when does a man show you in the dark?

Go to Nigeria. But that is the thing that happens, I think, in theater where people don't, we come up with these words and phrases because sometimes particularly with that goes wrong shows, we can't necessarily use the phrases you might use because of our meta, the meta level of it. So you can't say, stop the revolve, stop the show, because what you do and people have to not listen to that. So we have to create these kind of commands that are slightly obscure because then cabbage, for example, and then that means we know actually that it's not improv and it's not within the story of the production. I mean, I knew exactly what he meant by go to Nigeria. Yeah, I just couldn't find the two Nigerian flags next to each other.

So it took a while for him to come back in view of the audience. Anyway, so then so I did that and then I did another show in a festival where I met my wife, Jamie Burkitt, did a show called Sausage Jack and Space Vixens, which.

[4:04] Charlie Russell: Who is the original Sausage Jack?

[4:12] Fred Gray: Adam Aguido. Adam Aguido, who is the director of Peter Pan Goes Wrong. Yeah. And I only realized this maybe four years later.

[4:18] Charlie Russell: Wow, really? You didn't know?

[4:21] Fred Gray: Yeah, not at all. Not at all. Had no clue.

[4:26] Charlie Russell: So you'd already worked with Adam, then you worked with Adam.

[4:31] Fred Gray: Yeah. And then and then it was just like and they obviously had to bring down the song because Adam can hit notes that I can't. That's the thing that happened. I mean, I'm not a singer. I'm not a singer. It's OK. It's possible. I went into the I went to the first day of rehearsals for that. I was like, I am out of my depth. And but then I did that. And then and then Christmas was was working with you guys coming back. They said, you want to come back and understudy? Obviously, again, pride and pride then kicked in again. I was like, oh, I would have hoped to be bumped up. But why would I think that when it was you guys thinking I could use up a bit of a decision? I was like, yeah, I thought, you know, because I hadn't been seen by anyone because you're out on tour, you're around the country and you go on every now and again.

I was like, no, I'm going to treat this as a sort of three month long audition. And then I was doing the show and it was around the time bank robbery was going up and Chris was playing Trevor in the play that goes wrong. That's right. But then he'd moved to Peter Pan goes wrong in the West End. That's right. And then he moved. So then they moved him from play that goes wrong into bank robbery, which meant there was a Trevor spaced hole in play that goes wrong. And they Jono and Henry brought me into the dressing room and said, you want to go over to play that goes wrong. So the sort of the audition process worked. It did. And it was hard. And then I was in play that goes wrong for two and a half years.

[5:44] Charlie Russell: Yeah, because you did that. We finished that run with them. But then you stayed for another year, basically.

[5:48] Fred Gray: That's it. So I finished to finish that contract and I did Trevor for another year and then I extended again. But not as Trevor. I went to play Jonathan.

[5:56] Charlie Russell: That's right. That's right. And so you've actually done a couple of roles in play that goes wrong. But how did you start doing directing with pan directing with pan?

[6:07] Fred Gray: So because I'd spent so long with play that goes wrong. When Mark Bell moved on, I there was an associate director's position and I'd obviously played been in for two and a half years. And so and I'd done some directing at a theatre company in Glasgow before I went to drama school. And I was just I was like, I'm going to go for this. So I went into interview for the position and it went very well. But I didn't get that job. And then Adam Aguido was going to Australia, New Zealand. And he said with Peter Pan and he wanted to bring someone with him. And they said on the strength of Fred's interview, why don't you bring Fred? Because you knew the show as well. So that's even better. Exactly. So I went and joined Adam in New Zealand on this show as an associate director, very much learning, learning the show from that perspective. And that was five years ago, six years ago.

[7:00] Charlie Russell: You two have been working together, working together ever since. And it's, you know, the dream is working together, like actually in the room together. But we've done we've definitely worked separately. So I've done productions in Italy and Canada, obviously, Australia, New Zealand with the UK tour together. But they were by myself. I would go out without Adam. But the way it works is in terms of being an associate director is that Adam will always be the director. I would never get that correct, regardless of whether I do it like for this UK tour. You're staging it. Adam wasn't involved in the casting or the rehearsals, but he will always be the director because I'm staging his show.

[7:39] Charlie Russell: That's right. So actually, this brings me on to a question because a few people have asked me who are maybe not in the industry. So what is an associate director and what's the difference and why aren't you called the director if you directed that production?

[7:52] Fred Gray: And I suppose I would say like a director is is called a creative with a capital C when they come into a production at its inception or it's how it begins. And so they get the credit for the original production. And they will always get that because associates don't reimagine the show unless there's a literally it's not even a replica production. You know, sometimes you have plays where they've existed for years and years and years like a Shakespeare play. And then obviously the director who does it next is now just the director. It's not like every director since Shakespeare has been associates. So now it help us all understand the role of an associate director. What's going on is my understanding of it is only through my experience of it.

I don't actually I don't know the world of an associate director because I've directed shows by myself before and obviously that speaks for itself directing it from staging for the first time, etc, etc. But I've only really been an associate for Mischief and for Adam. So that might be different. It might be a more standard associate position.

[8:59] Charlie Russell: Yeah, and I think it I think it depends. I imagine it depends from from play to play and roll to roll in terms. Adam's always been very, very good at giving me a lot of responsibility. In Australia, New Zealand, it was it was very I said, Can I just sit and watch you? And I like I respect Adam so much and I like I learned so much work working with him and just sort of sitting back. And then as the production went on through the weeks, he said, Fred, you do this, you do this, you do this. And we developed such a wonderful relationship where I basically agree with him about everything. So it's not like I think with with other shows and talking to other actors, sometimes there's a there's a difference between what the associate says and what the director says.

And it's quite confusing. And that's never really been the case. I mean, Adam, if I I will obviously disagree with some decisions and say, oh, this moment, I think maybe what and and he will agree with me or he won't. Yeah, I can have a conversation.

[9:59] Fred Gray: Yeah. I mean, he's got a classic thing, which he actually says to actors, but he uses it on me as well, which is if he if he doesn't agree with you, he goes, that's really interesting. Get back to me on that. Yeah, always. And because I know that that's what he does with actors and he tells me that's what he does. It's really interesting. Come back to me. Yeah. And then he does it to me. I'm like, Adam, you've told me your code. I know that that means you told me the code now. I've told everyone. You told everyone the code. Oh, you might have to edit this out. Anyone who ever works with Adam Aguirre again now can learn the code.

[10:38] Charlie Russell: He owns it, though. He's people. People know because he never does. Then no one ever comes back to him on that.

[10:41] Fred Gray: Well, that's the thing, I think, to be fair to Adam, if you if you really do disagree with him, like if you've got something you want to talk about, he is actually open to hearing it.

[10:49] Charlie Russell: Absolutely.

[10:49] Fred Gray: And he's open to having his mind changed when he's saying that. That's not I'm shutting you out. But that's I don't want to have this conversation right now in this room whilst we're trying to put on a show, which is totally valid. Yeah. And so usually he is right. Yeah. Deeply frustrating. Well, not sometimes, but usually great, because if he's right, absolutely right thing. He's right. It's just like, yeah. And so, you know, when I when I went out to Italy to do it, when I went out to Canada to do it, obviously I didn't have Adam by my side. But I just I just know I just know the show. And also because I've been in the show for nine months understudy and understudy five of the parts, I sort of know it from an actor's perspective.

So Adam will be doing the sort of big picture stuff. And then I'll just sort of go on stage and whisper. It's better if you use your left hand there because of this. You know, it's like the little nitty gritty details of actually performing the parts. Also, you know, like characters like, well, all of them. But I mean, specifically a character like Max, for example, three, four weeks into rehearsal can become very confusing because you don't have any laughs anymore. You have nothing. You have anything to feed off. And, you know, Max's fuel is the audience. And and to not have the audience there, it's like I can I can then talk to them about that process and make them understand. So we're going to come along.

It's all going to be fine. So performing is a huge is a massive advantage. And I mean, Adam just works so well together. That's really, really nice. And then I know from my friends who are directors and who have been associates that that's not always the case. And you just deal with it. You just keep going. I know that my.

[12:24] Fred Gray: Friend and director Katie Anna McDonagh would also find that when she's doing associate work, she does a lot of the getting the understudies ready.

[12:30] Charlie Russell: Sure. Yes.

[12:34] Fred Gray: That's a big responsibility. Yeah, that was in the last UK tour. That was my main job, and I was contracted to see the show every time once rehearsals were done. Adam was done.

[12:45] Charlie Russell: Yeah.

[12:46] Fred Gray: And then it was me on the road, you know, every two weeks watching the show and covering the understudies. There has to be two covers for each part, and obviously with a tour schedule, it's very tough because of how technical the show is as well, and also potentially dangerous the show could be. It just takes a while; it takes a lot longer.

[13:10] Charlie Russell: I mean, yeah, you know, as you've just said yourself, associate roles may differ from show to show, but this has been your experience. But also, you did just mention that you have obviously understudied on the show and been in the show. In fact, Broadway this year, when Peter Pan Goes Wrong went to New York, I was doing some podcasts whilst I was there. So if you want to check them out, do find them wherever you get your podcasts.

[13:38] Fred Gray: Plug!

[13:39] Charlie Russell: But you were actually also contracted as emergency cover, is that right?

[13:46] Fred Gray: Yes, whilst I was there at the beginning. That was the idea. Yes, I was contracted and paid to be an emergency cover whilst the other American understudies got ready. I was flown out early to start with it because that was my job on Broadway as well: I covered the understudies. They're all amazing.

[14:00] Charlie Russell: And there's actually a specific episode where we interview at least, I think it's three of the understudies, and it was so nice. They were just an absolute dream to work with.

[14:12] Fred Gray: I was officially an emergency cover because in the last UK tour, I was not officially a cover, but I went on because people went down. I went on in the Alexandra Palace for two and a half weeks as Max in the last UK tour, and because I know five of the parts, they obviously just utilized that.

[14:31] Charlie Russell: A smart move.

[14:31] Fred Gray: Because probably what you're referencing is the— in fairness, as Max on Broadway, well, your Broadway debut.

[14:45] Charlie Russell: Yeah.

[14:45] Fred Gray: So if anyone doesn't know this, we'll start from the beginning. You had actually left America; you were getting married, and we'll talk about that. That's exciting. But you were not in the United States, and there was a time on the run on Broadway at the Ethel Barrymore where one by one, cast members went down with COVID.

[15:08] Charlie Russell: Right.

[15:08] Fred Gray: And it so happened that it seemed to be the people and then their direct understudy, and then their direct understudy. We just go down with COVID to the point where I thought we were gonna have to cancel some shows for the first time ever. We were just hanging on, and then I think it was Nancy that went down, which meant that someone—a girl—had to move from Trevor. The whole thing moved, and we were a part short.

[15:35] Charlie Russell: And I thought, well, obviously we're gonna have to cancel the show, and then we were told, "No, no, no, we're not cancelling the show because Fred Gray is currently on a plane."

[15:45] Fred Gray: He doesn't know this yet. He knows he's on a plane, to be fair, but he's aware of that. We haven't sort of managed to con him that way.

[15:54] Charlie Russell: But he's on a plane coming to see us, and that was meant to be a surprise that you were coming to see.

[15:59] Fred Gray: It was partly a surprise. Well, I was updated with the situation with actors going down. We also had Ellie Kemper in for that. She was about to be—she had a rehearsal for the Thursday, and this is maybe on the Monday that I had this conversation. So they said, because of what's happening with the actors, can we get you out to direct Ellie Kemper, but also be there in the building in case this continues?

[16:24] Charlie Russell: Right.

[16:24] Fred Gray: So I didn't know that was a possibility; it was a completely blindsided. But it was—so I was like, great, so I'll go back out. I've been home for maybe two and a half weeks. I was out there for ten weeks with you guys, and I was sort of settling back into life away from Broadway.

[16:36] Charlie Russell: Yeah.

[16:38] Fred Gray: I was delighted to come back because I loved working with you guys, and obviously meeting Ellie Kemper—a massive fan of The Office.

[16:54] Charlie Russell: Sidebar!

[16:54] Fred Gray: She's the loveliest person I've ever met, like I've ever met. I just think she's like—anyway, so I got on a plane with like 12 hours' notice. So it was like I was on a Zoom call, and they put the flights, and I was on the next morning.

[17:08] Charlie Russell: Wow.

[17:08] Fred Gray: And then when I landed, I landed about two o'clock, and I got about a hundred WhatsApps just open at the airport, and I was like, "You're on! You're on tonight as Max!"

[17:19] Charlie Russell: Panic!

[17:21] Fred Gray: Just panic. Because I've sort of moved slowly but surely into directing, I still do act, but it's not—it's actually something I feel a bit weird about doing now because my mind, my eye is just—well, my brain is just tuned differently now. It's more about like lots of people and plates spinning. It's not just, you know, thinking about myself. And all of a sudden, I was in a taxi learning these—learning, looking over—like I know that I do know the show, but it's very different to watch someone else or different people play that part than do it yourself.

[18:00] Charlie Russell: Right.

[18:00] Fred Gray: It's got to be in your body, especially things like the dance. Again, mentioned before, heavily dyspraxic, so that was a thing. Well, what I make believe is gonna happen—plate hits are gonna—and all the things are gonna—and got the thing at two. Obviously, it takes ages at the airport. Long story short, got to the theater.

[18:19] Charlie Russell: At five?

[18:19] Fred Gray: Yeah, of course, because then you took me through the world, and I believe, yeah, because obviously Nancy would have done that being the choreographer and dance captain, but she was off, and we had been doing emergency rehearsal to keep—I don't know because someone else was moving across, so we were trying to get in as much emergency rehearsal as possible.

[18:41] Charlie Russell: Right.

[18:41] Fred Gray: But we had to legally take a break, and I know the crew had to take a break. The crew had to take a break for half an hour, so they couldn't start until half five. But I spoke to the stage manager, and I was like, "Am I breaking any rules if I am on the stage going through something?" And they said no. And I said, "And if I—there's just—I don't touch anything." I was like, "Brilliant."

[19:02] Charlie Russell: Right.

[19:02] Fred Gray: It's like, so if, for example, I started at 5:15, just me and Fred, and they're like, "Yeah, please do that." And I was like, "Brilliant." So I remember meeting you at the cab, and I was like, "You have 15 minutes if it's okay."

[19:14] Charlie Russell: Right.

[19:14] Fred Gray: And then we get on stage, and we're gonna just walk through it in the world and make believe so that when everyone comes back off break, we are 15 minutes ahead of schedule because at that point, 15 minutes felt very big.

[19:27] Charlie Russell: Right.

[19:27] Fred Gray: Like we can do so much in that time.

[19:28] Charlie Russell: Yeah, it was such a pressure.

[19:34] Fred Gray: We did, we did. It was very focused. I was obviously very confused and excited. I mean, it's important to say I wasn't like—I was like, "Oh my god, this is so cool!" And I—because of back in the day, you know, with understudying 19 years ago, I genuinely feel that that job set me up for the rest of my life in so far as I can do anything.

[20:00] Charlie Russell: Right.

[20:00] Fred Gray: Like I can—if I can do—because I went on rehearsals, we couldn't rehearse at all on that first tour because it was its first UK tour, and me and Laura were the only two understudies on that. We just had no time to rehearse. So when we went on, often it would be our first time doing anything, which is very weird. But because of that, I just feel like I can do anything. And here I am with this show that I've done so, and I was just kind of like, "Yes, bring it on!" And that evening at 7:30, just stepped out in a pink baby grow. I was just like—and also the sort of Max energy, I'm just like, "Hey!"

[20:30] Charlie Russell: Do you think of all the parts you would have to do last minute?

[20:37] Fred Gray: 100%. It's the better one, 100%. Yeah, it's also the one that I did two and a half—well, it was four and a half years before at the— or three and a half years I saw at the Alexandra Palace. I did—it's the last one I've done. So it was like, "Okay, let's do that." And it's probably—I would say probably one of the more suited parts for you as well with your casting.

[20:56] Charlie Russell: So like this is the thing. I actually—I think I remember I got some inside information when I went for the casting with, you know, Harry recommended me, and I was just checking in with him. I remember hearing through him—not through my agent—through him saying, "Yeah, they like you. They really like you, but they don't know where to place you."

[21:16] Fred Gray: Mm-hmm.

[21:16] Charlie Russell: And that's kind of been my thing as an actor. It happened at drama school as well. I got sort of eclectic. I got like so like character actors, you know, "It's Fred to do this because you can do it." It was never, "You are this. Yeah, we know you."

[21:27] Fred Gray: This actually through and through.

[21:35] Charlie Russell: And since doing, you know, especially on Pan and running auditions and things kind of in my life, it's kind of taken over my life that like I look at people as clowns and like I look at people, "Where would you fit?"

[21:43] Fred Gray: Yeah.

[21:43] Charlie Russell: You were Dennis, you were Max, you were Robert, you were Chris. And it's so funny. I know that I'm about to go to Latvia to do it, and I know that I don't even need to see a cast list that I would just walk in and be like, "Right, well, obviously you're Robert."

[21:50] Fred Gray: Yeah.

[21:50] Charlie Russell: "Obviously you're Sandra." Well, obviously, you know, it's just so obvious to me. And so I don't know where I fit in terms of the clowns in that show. I think in Play That Goes Wrong, I'm fairly sure that I'm not a Jonathan, but it definitely isn't my—I can do it, and I did it, but it wasn't—it was just—that's the thing. You're right, though, about you. It's like, "Well, Fred can definitely do it."

[22:05] Fred Gray: Yeah.

[22:05] Charlie Russell: But you probably have that thing—I've heard that. I've had that before where someone's like, "Oh, we know you can do it," but then the next person that walked in was exactly—exactly. It's like you are maybe skilled enough to make it work, but actually then someone walked in who doesn't even have to make it work.

[22:21] Fred Gray: Exactly.

[22:21] Charlie Russell: And so for Max, I think I do have a—I do have that side of me. I think I'm a bit of a child, and I've got a new soul thing, and like things interest me, and I'm generally quite positive. So I do have a sort of Max energy about me, but I'm definitely too old for Max.

[23:02] Fred Gray: Well, we're all too old.

[23:03] Charlie Russell: I look old; like I look old. I've always looked old.

[23:06] Fred Gray: I've always looked old, and that's just one of my things. I look at school; I looked at this age.

[23:11] Charlie Russell: Yeah.

[23:11] Fred Gray: I'm doing better than I was when I was 16. Like why is this 40-year-old man in our school year?

[23:24] Charlie Russell: I'm four years old.

[23:26] Fred Gray: And it did get a bigger laugh because you're a full beard, Victor, much taller than me.

[23:31] Charlie Russell: Right.

[23:31] Fred Gray: And I think Jonathan was on that day, or maybe it was actually partly that day.

[23:34] Charlie Russell: Yeah.

[23:34] Fred Gray: And I think Jonathan and I had managed to—yeah, you were on. And so it was really funny because obviously it just so happened that this year, you know, Max—Matt Cavendish, who plays Max, is on the shorter side. I'm short, Jonathan's short, and then Jonathan's alternate when he was not there because my mangler was Bartley, who was short. So we had this thing where the darling children actually were kind of well-cast, and then you came on, and you were such a giant—like an old tall man playing a four-year-old, and I think that really added to it.

[24:09] Charlie Russell: Well, in the first UK tour, it was all kind of differently. It was Max who actually—it was Robert who played.

[24:13] Fred Gray: Oh, yeah, all switched around.

[24:19] Charlie Russell: It was Cornelius Booth who grew his beard, and he looked so much older than he was. I mean, he looked like 60, and we had a whole thing where he was in the dance, and there was a line which is, "We love young boys. When do we love singing and dancing?" It was after the dance without a breath. It was one of the—but in just a pink baby grow.

[25:18] Fred Gray: It's like, yeah, just that that thing, that understudy in me, it's just like it kind of taken since doing that job, doing other acting jobs, I know that things end. And I think when you do a long run with something, you kind of take it for granted that going out on stage, it just made me appreciate roles. It also made me value how hard everyone works apart from actors. Like, like, I just it just makes how hard the crew work and how early they come in and what they're doing. And then actors come in and like, Oh, God, we've got like a call today. Like two. So yes, you do. What does that mean? You have to get out of bed at 12? Is that a problem? Do you know? It's a problem for me, actually. It just puts everything in perspective.

So like, yeah, just made me sort of understand theater, specifically the show. But just yeah, actors have it very easy. And when you're in a job to just like, don't complain. That is a good one. You know, it's just really work out whether you need to complain about it. It's that old adage of like, how do you make an actor complain? Give them a job. Oh, I know. It's it's just and it's it's amazing. So so the idea of going knowing that I was going to go on for four shows and four shows only is that every single moment that happened, I was like, that's especially on the last show. That's the last time. And it probably will be the last time I ever play Max. I really do think. And that well, that's how I think anyway.

Yeah. Well, I hope for the show's sake that that is the case. I was just like, oh, this is this is so incredible. And I know it's sort of grass is always greener. And I imagine American actors coming over to the to England would be like, oh, the West End is the dream. But for me to go on in Broadway is like it's like pinch yourself stuff. And then like I was out there with you guys for 10 weeks and Adam left after, I think, four. I was there with you guys. And then Neil Patrick Harris came in and they were like, well, Fred, you're going to have to direct Neil Patrick Harris. I was like, what? And then I was like, what is going on? I know it's it's been it's been an unbelievable year, like an unbelievable year, like really, really weird, always imposter syndrome, always just like, why am I here? What's this? What is it? But then always having to try and hide that. Right. Yeah. Because you want everyone to feel safe with you.

[27:32] Charlie Russell: So you were talking about it earlier, actually, like how now that you've done so much directing and associate directing, how it changes your approach to acting. And someone said to me, oh, I wonder what it's like for him to take notes now. Do you think you take notes from directors as an actor differently? And do you approach your acting differently? Do you give like has it affected how you give notes being an actor, knowing that you're an actor? Does that influence how you give a note? Like how has this affected doing both and having both hats? How does it affect each one?

[28:06] Fred Gray: It's a big question. Good question. I think that in terms of directing, I feel that and again, specific to the show, I feel that I can I think you have to adapt your notes to different people. And, you know, the shit, the shit. We can have a little swear. Yeah. Yeah. A little sandwich. The shit sandwich. You know, sometimes you have to. But I know it's happening when it's happening. And yet it is still. It doesn't mean that it's for the sake of it. It's you know, it's never just like you make up some good things to mask the thing you're trying to know. It's just that you need to make that person feel more secure than you would with another actor. You just go just do this. Yeah, because you feel that they're more secure in taking that note.

And, you know, so I like I think you have to adapt. And I think that I've learned the different actors need different approaches to two notes. And then in terms of in terms of acting itself, it's similar to just how I how I view the crew and other than just the actors is that I I know what it's like to give a note to to or see someone an actor receive a note and and for them to be resistant to it. I don't feel like I've ever been that because I like to I like to try out new things. And it's also about trust. And if I trust the director and if I trust them that what why would I until I've tried something and if they're open to the conversation about it, if I if I really don't having I just think it's it's about just always saying yes.

It's always just like, yeah, great. Amazing. And then if if if like somehow there's a bit of a block later on, having tried it loads and tried it loads, hopefully you'll be on the same page about that.

[30:05] Fred Gray: Yeah. Or maybe you've just your interpretation of the note was actually just like, I've noticed this before I've gone. I thought I knew what the note was. And then it turns out I'd actually slightly misinterpreted the note. And that's why we're not. Well, that's well, that's exactly. And that's also the thing about what I've learned about directing as well is that when I, you know, I've been with the UK tour every week and things and I said to them in the last note session, when something's not working in inverted commas, something's not being I very rarely blame the person doing it. Yeah. It's more like I haven't quite communicated properly what that moment needs. And it has something hasn't landed with you with that particular note.

So it's just about always checking in with what's how they've interpreted the direction. We all come to the room with our own lenses on the world. So the word energy to one actor means different things to another actor or the word, you know, like, that's it. Yeah. And so you realize, oh, shoot, I said energy to that actor. And that created that response. And that was not what I meant.

[31:06] Fred Gray: Yeah, exactly. Obviously, I need to find the word that gets me what I'm. Yes. What I'm trying to get. Yes. It's also it's also I learned a lot from Adam in terms of giving space. I want to when I see something that's, again, wrong, inverted commas, I want to fix it. I want to fix it immediately, because I don't want it to be in the bodies of the actors or that it's learning something wrong. And it's you have to undo that. Yeah, I just do that sometimes. And I sometimes be sitting there with Adam, I'd be like, stop it there. Can we just have a little? He's like, No, no, it's fine. And I'll be like, what do you mean? It's not fine. And then lo and behold, just through doing it and doing it and doing it, that it just irons itself out. And it's fine. And it's fine by itself, because the actors have found their way.

[32:00] Fred Gray: Oh, yeah. And like I said, the actors to trust in the actors and making sure that actors don't feel claustrophobic about about technical elements or comedic beats and to let the show breathe and let the clowns breathe. And yeah, this sort of elements of the show to come to come forward and not and not just sort of take barrage of notes, especially if there's a note that's not quite landing with an actor. Sometimes I've given the same note about the same moment about this. And then you can see when you approach that you go and on that bit there and you can see the head in the hands. I don't know. I thought I was doing it. Exactly. And it's like, OK, I'm not going to mention that. Yeah. For a while, because it's not it's not helping you.

And it's making you feel weird about maybe not just in that moment anymore. It's making you feel weird about your character and about you. He was an actor and as a person, it's such a fragile little thing is is how powerful confidence is.

[33:33] Fred Gray: Absolutely. And how when someone's feeling confident as well. I know that when I'm feeling confident, I'm actually also able to take the notes more. Right. But when I'm feeling insecure, that's when I noticed myself being the most resistant, which is stupid because I should be like, oh, my gosh, I'm feeling insecure. Help me with your notes. But instead, you because your ego is basically getting in the way. Right. That's that's the problem. Yeah. And I and then I noticed that's happening and then I'm really embarrassed that that's happening. And so I really have to just go away for a while and calm down and just be like, stop making this more difficult.

[34:21] Charlie Russell: I'm looking at your face and thinking, oh, no, I'm giving you my code. I'm I'm it's fascinating hearing you talk about it. And I think I think there's such a benefit from the fact that you've that you've done both and you know the show inside out. I mean, someone asked me, does he just know the show off by heart? Do you think you could recite the show?

[34:34] Fred Gray: Peter Pan goes wrong. No, no, no, no, I couldn't. Yeah, I've we've had a few understudy rehearsals where there's been a character missing. And I've like I know that I know that I know the lines of the parts that I've covered. Yeah, I know. I know them, but I couldn't play Sandra.

[34:53] Charlie Russell: Oh, but you could.

[34:54] Fred Gray: I couldn't. I mean, I wouldn't. Now, tell me if there was a part that you were playing. OK, seeing two parts to this question, any part in the show, including the ones you've covered, what's your favorite to what's your favorite part?

[35:06] Fred Gray: Actually, I it's genuinely an impossible question. I think one of the one of the strengths of the goes wrong brand and the goes wrong show shows back to back the you know, the characters that go from one to the other is also Francis and Lucy and Peter Pan are so well written and constructed and they have their own journeys, particularly in pan. There's there's an arc, there's an arc to it, to every single part. And it's such an ensemble piece that I just think every part is a is a is a dream. I just think like it's, you know, I find I find Peter Pan so genuinely moving, like it's got such a heartbeat running through it. And so, for example, you take a part like Lucy. Yeah, I'm not saying I play Lucy, but it seems like it seems that like it's a very hard part to play because you've got this journey through the piece.

We just sort of get battered through the show. And then at the end, she picks up a book and reads from it. Yeah. And she overcomes a stage fright and loads of spoilers here. But she it's just someone with a book, reading a story, and it just strips away all the sort of artifice of there. And it just comes to the story that we all know and love and the simplicity of that. And it did like corny finish. They've done it. Yeah. You know, unlike play that goes wrong with things go wrong from start to finish. And then it's actually finished and they achieve it. They do it. They get to the end. And and there's just a broken girl who's joint and triumphant having having overcome her stage fright. And I just and the snow's falling.

And like, especially after the process of going through the casting rehearsals and then you're finally there in front of an audience that have enjoyed themselves. And it's all it's all worked for you. Your journey with it matches the journey of Cornley because there have been so many problems along the way. Right. Yeah. And then it's finally up and it's and the words have been read again. It never fails. And that's why I never get bored of doing it. It's never like, here we go again.

[36:21] Charlie Russell: Well, that's it. Well, yeah, because you're not bored. Well, because you've done it even more than me. You know, I know it. And I said, of course, I'm like, help to make it. And I know it very well in one way. But actually, I was definitely, definitely nowhere near you. And I actually, you know, I don't know what it's like to direct the show. I don't know all the parts. I've only played one part that can be. And I'm not impressed that you're not bored. I mean, how do you feel? Can you describe the feeling of, you know, we I know what it's like to do a show. And I think people can imagine what it's like to be about to perform. What's it like for a director to sit there, the audience coming in and you know, the show, it's about to begin. How do you feel watching the show?

[37:01] Fred Gray: Well, I think that based on the strength of the show itself, that once all the because obviously it's Adam's show, the parts are all there.

[37:12] Fred Gray: In terms of rehearsing it, it's about making sure those structures are in place. And once that's kind of there and you've cast it well, I'm never really nervous. I'm nervous sometimes if something doesn't happen that impacts safety or, you know, things like that. That makes me really nervous. But as the show's gone on, that's less and less and less of a problem. Also, the goes wrong thing has a goes wrong shield, which is when something goes wrong, the audience don't have a clue. And so it always has people like, Oh, is that supposed to? No clue, no clue whatsoever. So you never from an audience perspective, it never impacts there. I think rhythmically things like we have a show stop. And you know, like, yeah, show stop a few weeks ago with the nursery.

And it does it does impact you because you have to stop for 10 minutes and the nursery particularly has it and the show at large has a rhythm to it. It's there for a reason. So if you break that up, the audience kind of then have to get on board, you have to get them back on board. It's like it makes everyone's job harder. And they don't necessarily know that it's like not as good as it could have been. Yeah, but even we all know, oh, there's this version. Exactly, exactly. Because if something goes, goes wrong for us, it's actually going right for the show. Yeah, it's like, you know, if the pirate doesn't go off, well, it wasn't supposed to go off. Yeah, in the goes right version. So so just tell that that's why it's always about coming back to truth and about like, playing the story straight so that you're not expecting the things to go wrong, because what is it?

What is it if it's going right? Yeah. So but yeah, from the from the audience perspective, it's it doesn't make a difference. And then and then it's just for me watching it for the first night, or six weeks in or six months in. It's never finished. Like it's never and that's and that's why I love comedy. That's why I love Mischief and I love Peter Pan. Because it's never it's never finished. There's always things to like from night to night. And that's why it's always alive. Because it's never, it's never sort of stayed and stuck. And it's like, you can just always sort of mix up and try new things and think about this. And who do you look to when things go like checking the things that when you're doing a long run actors forget about this will go on auto mode. And then you just that's why it's important to have someone checking in on it, an associate director, etc, etc, to remind the actors of those sort of key principle things.

[39:35] Charlie Russell: Do you have a favourite moment? I mean, you talked about the Lucy moment at the end. Is there a moment that you just love every time it happens when you're watching it?

[39:40] Fred Gray: I love the second revolve. I love the second revolve. The final like the chaos. The chaos. Yeah, I was it as it was chaos. They called it on Broadway didn't they call it the chaos? Yeah. Yeah. And rightly so it's it's something that takes ages to choreograph and get in. But people are seeing it for the first time. And it's that reaction. It's the first timers. It's the people obviously we get your fans coming to see it, which is lovely, which is lovely. Of course, people seeing it for the first time. There's nothing quite like it. It's like you have a theater that's packed out around the country or in America and Broadway. And people are seeing these things like I was with the bedrock moments.

Yeah, sorry, the pleasant. It's like you can't recreate that you can't like you're giving them that for the first time. And if you have all that joy and heart running through it as well. It's it's a genuinely wonderful experience. It's like and you'll get you're giving that. Yeah, every time. And I think with the second revolve, it's a spectacle. It's like, it is really, really impressive. I mean, I'm looking at the things and going, okay, so this is quite a little bit off there. And that is the nap in time. I'm thinking like that. But people saying it's just as you say, chaos, choreographed chaos is just very, very hard to do. And I remember when we first did that without a Megiddo in the room, it took like three days.

Oh, it takes three days. And then, you know, going to Broadway, everything's bigger, better. So we had to like just make Chris Bean's journey sort of bust a key and running around. Make it harder. Make it harder. Which I think Henry Shields is really grateful for.

[41:09] Charlie Russell: Yeah. Well, he wanted it. He did. Yeah, we always do.

[41:15] Fred Gray: Yeah, exactly. We always. That's our problem, I think. Yeah. A bit is that we do sometimes make the rods for our own backs. We're like, actually, can I add this? And can I add this? And that's what it's all about. And that's why it's never because this this UK tour version of, you know, it's because we're doing you're joining. Yeah, we're joining them. Coming back. And it's a sort of cross contamination of UK tour and Broadway. Oh, geez. Coming together next week. Rehearsals. Can't wait. I can't wait.

[41:38] Charlie Russell: Me too.

[41:39] Fred Gray: So the directing of that is like, you know, I've tried to keep it. Well, hopefully is to the sort of Broadway blocking for the UK tour. So it can be kind of seamless changer with some people coming in and going out and stuff. But I'm just I'm just so excited to see what those combinations bring. Yeah, I'm like, that's why it's never boring because it's always I talk about me playing Jonathan and me playing Max is that like me playing Max brought a different thing to your Sandra. And it's like you you take one person out and put a new person in and their interpretation of the clown. Well, as long as the blocking and the staging is in place, it's all so malleable. And it's like, what's going to happen tonight?

Yeah, no. And so always exciting. I'm very excited to work with the tour team. They are incredible. And if anyone can catch them, please do. And the saddest thing is that Kira Morris is playing Sandra on tour. And I love her so much. And I was like, Oh, oh, no. Oh, no. By me coming in. I don't get to she doesn't I don't get to do it with her. And we don't get to do it together.

[42:46] Charlie Russell: Yeah. But maybe maybe we could. Can we just have like a double like twin Sandra's who just speak at exactly the same time. Is that an official request?

[42:52] Fred Gray: I'm in. I'm just putting it out there. She's so brilliant. I'll ask after this.

[42:58] Charlie Russell: All right. All right. I'm gonna ask you a couple of like quicker questions, although don't feel like you have to be quick in your answer. One of them is, are you in an advert for snug, snug advert?

[43:09] Fred Gray: Someone asked me, I am in an advert for snug. It's a very good advertually. Yeah. And I say Sandra in it, which is weird. But that was this isn't a quick answer. I'm sorry.

[43:23] Charlie Russell: That's okay.

[43:24] Fred Gray: When I got the audition through, it was shortly after my son was born. And I was and I was in Great Ormond Street. And because my son wasn't wasn't well. And I got this audition through saying, we have to do for the self tape is sit on a chair as if you're having an orgasm. And I was like, I couldn't be further away in my mind from that. So I was like, I'm not doing I'm not. I'm not. I was like, sorry, agent, not gonna happen. Jamie was like, just send it, just send it. And I was like, fine. But sent it sent it over and got a recall. And then I got the and then I got it. Brilliant, which just goes to show don't don't overthink. Yeah, just do it just especially for, you know, for adverts, like you're either right or you're not.

And then I got it. And then my son was in the hospital. So I had to spend a day in a house in London doing this shoot for snug doing basically that scene over and over again, where I sit on it's so comfortable that you sort of are in a state of power, like euphoria, paralyzed with euphoria. And had a really weird day because then I finished that and just went straight back to the hospital. So that's it reminds me, I also looked terrible. I look terrible in the in the advert, which is just where I was where I was fine, absolutely fine. And then but at the moment, I'm also in a sky advert, where I play a giant, a giant, of course you do play a giant. I've got the ears, let me take the ears with me. And yeah, that was in Turkey. That was years ago.

[44:52] Charlie Russell: You've still got the ears?

[44:53] Fred Gray: Still got the ears, yeah.

[44:54] Charlie Russell: Can I say his name, son?

[44:56] Fred Gray: Yeah, Dylan.

[44:56] Charlie Russell: Does Dylan like the ears?

[44:57] Fred Gray: Dylan loves the ears. Yeah. And when he sees on, because it's often on like, it's on sky. So the when we're watching football, yeah, right in the adverts, and he's like, Daddy.

[45:07] Charlie Russell: So he sees me as a giant.

[45:08] Fred Gray: Actually, right. Screw the quick questions. This is more interesting. How like you are a dad, you're a working dad in this industry. And I do think sometimes we ask women what that's like a lot to be working mums in the industry. But we don't actually ask guys for various different reasons. So I have no experience of it. So my question is probably going to be a little vague. How are you finding it?

[45:34] Fred Gray: Amazing. I mean, you love being a dad. Dylan is a treasure.

[45:37] Charlie Russell: Yeah, I love being a dad. He's the he's it's the best. It's the best thing I've ever done. And in terms of Yeah, you know, Jamie, my wife is, is an actor as well.

[45:47] Fred Gray: And she's in the UK tour.

[45:48] Charlie Russell: She's in the UK tour. Yeah, exactly.

[45:49] Fred Gray: And she will be on the West End. She plays Annie. She's excellent.

[45:51] Charlie Russell: That's right. Yeah. So she's sharing the part with Nancy.

[45:53] Fred Gray: Yeah. And, and basically, since Dylan's been born, she's been she's been nonstop, nonstop working.

[46:01] Charlie Russell: Yeah.

[46:02] Fred Gray: And so she was in grown up when she was in grown up. So when he when he came out of hospital, we went on tour with grownups. And so we were sort of carting Dylan around with us. And, and it's, it's, it's just about compromise in terms of the, in terms of the two of us in terms of any, you know, any working actor, director, creative person. I just think that with with their with their partner, especially both of you are, it's just like, you know, Jamie gets to work, Jamie gets to go on stage and do her thing. And that's wonderful. And that's something I miss out on, because we can't both do that at the same time. We'd like tours. And you know, I've, I've been very lucky, because I've had little snippets that like, I've had like, a month here.

And Jamie's mum's been amazing at childcare and stuff, which is something you need to think about. But she misses out on the on the on the sometimes, you know, the first, just being there, the first time for the especially, he does the things for the first time. And that's, I think that's a that's a sacrifice that she has to make on the other side is that I sort of miss out on the work stuff and the joy of rehearsals and going on stage and all that stuff. And especially doing a comedy, you get that that daily affirmation, yeah, and stuff. And I miss, you know, I didn't miss that. But, you know, she makes sacrifices on on the other on the side. And, and, and it's just just, you just don't, I didn't think we could do it.

I think it would be I thought it would be a question of one of us having to give up. And obviously, he's, you know, he's turning three in January. And that might happen at some point in terms of compromise. But that's, it would it never feels like a loss. It never feels like I'm, yes, you're missing out on something, but what you're gaining is surely more important. And I've just like, absolutely loved, absolutely, absolutely loved it. I just, you know, I just, and also, I think that mischief has been very good. Kelly Wex has been very good at supporting that sort of thing in terms of like, supporting childcare and, and all that sort of stuff. And also, yeah, just like, he gets to, he's such a social little man.

Yeah, he's touring, touring the country, came to Broadway as well. And he just like, he's sort of immersed in the world without, without knowing it. In fact, he saw in he saw Peter Pan Goes Wrong in Aylesbury. And he sort of watched it. And I was like, is he? And he's smiling. There's mommy and stuff. And then two or three days later, he just started clapping saying, I believe in fairies. I was like, what's happening? And then I didn't. And then we also got these little llama toys. And I said, Oh, what? What? What they called? He said, That's Robert. That's Chris. That's Dennis. And I was like, Oh, are you a genius? Because what is genius is a genius. This is like weeks after. And they can't have been random names, because I don't know when he would have heard the name Dennis before.

Chris and Robert, you could kind of hear that walking on the street. Dennis is quite a unique name. Yeah. But he was naming these llamas after part of the play. But not just Peter and Wendy and Tinkerbell. No, no, no. But then he knows, he knows Captain Hook. He knows like, and he always says mommy's going because when mommy goes away to the next venue, bye mommy, mommy's going to the stage to be Tinkerbell. So he really understands. He understands it. And then he says, I believe in fairies. And he said, and then mommy wakes up. And that's, of course, what happens. I suppose. So it's amazing that you don't realize how much they do take in and take on how sort of spongy their brains are and how you probably got to be careful with them and mindful, take care of them. But also.

[49:36] Fred Gray: Give them joy and magic absolutely which is exactly which is again coming back to why I never get bored. Which is what always is always the forefront of it. There's heart and there's magic and there's childlike obviously Peter Pan is all about so, you know never growing up and like discovering the world and learning about the way that and the fact that he took in so much. No, I mean it was is it like I think it's what five and above.

[50:01] Charlie Russell: Yeah.

[50:02] Fred Gray: I mean, it's up to you. It was quite a quiet audience for really. I'll try it and if he's to I'll just get out. I'll just well, that's he was he was he just watched captivated the whole time and there's just so much there. There's just so much there.

[50:14] Charlie Russell: Yeah, yeah.

[50:15] Fred Gray: It's really cool and thanks for sharing that experience because I think it's something that a lot of people are going through and we don't always discuss because we're so excited to talk about the work, which is great. But how it's all part of the great experience, you know, and and we can't do we can't it's a funny phrase but we can't actually have it all because I literally the physics won't allow us to do five things at once. But it's okay to sometimes do this and then sometimes choose that but generally, you know you and Jamie have such a great dynamic and you're generous with each other and then you know, obviously very committed to your child. So yeah, there hasn't been a situation where someone has had to we've always been able to do everything that we wanted.

Yeah, there's never been a thing of like, okay, there's two offers a day one for you one for me who's gonna go for it? It's always been a way again, especially because of Jamie's mom how amazing she's been. It's like, you know, I had to go to New York for 10 weeks. Yeah, Jamie was working at the time in a show and Jamie's mom was like you need to go so I'll be there. Yeah, I did a 10-week stint like looking after Dylan and like we couldn't do it without her. I mean obviously, you know people I imagine different couples have different problems with with childcare and so it is a thing otherwise your child is just by themselves.

[51:28] Charlie Russell: Do that.

[51:29] Fred Gray: Yes, yes. Yeah, this is a podcast. It's very important to say that don't leave your children in just leave by them. So just don't leave them just don't leave them by themselves. Sure full stop. Yeah.

[51:42] Charlie Russell: Like when I'm there sometimes someone's like someone would go where's Dylan? Oh, oh my god.

[51:55] Fred Gray: He would be he would be fine.

[51:58] Charlie Russell: Oh, that's so fascinating. Thank you. I I feel like I mean we could just talk for hours and hours and I would love to do that with you.

[52:07] Fred Gray: But I at some point we'll just we just have to stop. Of course. I know I understand.

[52:12] Charlie Russell: I'd like the show itself, but I've got a quick couple ones. You know, give us your go what's a classic Fred Gray note, what do you find yourself like this is a this is a phrase or a thing I go to a lot.

[52:25] Fred Gray: The best note that I've ever been given as an actor is make everyone else look good. Yeah, it's like it's just gold because if everyone's doing that everyone looks great and it's only when you get and this wouldn't pass, you know we wouldn't stand for it if it happened on it on this show or any other show of like someone stealing focus. Oh, you know, it's like that doesn't happen when when the audience sees it. Certainly happens sometimes in rehearsals. People are trying something out and it's like well actually this moments about this and and you're drawing I'm looking at you when I should be looking here and it's not that that wasn't funny or that you're not talented it's just not we've got to think of the whole show exactly and don't think about yourself and don't be self-serving and generally with with with casting that the people that Mischief employ that doesn't really happen.

You don't really get that. But that's if everyone's thinking about serving the other person in front of them and making them look good. It's a classic thing if you if you make a joke and the person in front of you on stage wasn't to laugh you wouldn't look funny, you know. I mean, it's about how you how you frame what the other person is doing if someone's trying to scare you and there's not a thing on your face. They make they look stupid. They don't know whereas if you if you act shocked and then they've you've made them look good, right and successful in their action.

[53:40] Charlie Russell: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's such a team game.

[53:46] Fred Gray: Exactly. So that that would be my best like no is that make everyone else look good? Yeah, that's quite an improv thing as well.

[53:47] Charlie Russell: How do you get out of your head when you're on stage if you're like worried about what you're doing?

[53:51] Fred Gray: Like don't get out of your head and just focus on the other person. Yeah, I did the improv because I haven't done much improvisation like in it's sort of sort of cold hard around a show or whatever, but I did the Improvathon with with you. Mm-hmm.

[54:06] Charlie Russell: I did the full 50 hours with with Anna McGee. Do you came for a few you came?

[54:10] Fred Gray: I don't know if I did actually I think I was going to but I mean, you know, you would have been very tired.

[54:22] Charlie Russell: Anyway, it was so it was so new to me and I remember the first like 10 12 hours I was in hell. I was like I was so consumed with wanting to be interesting and and funny and mm-hmm and I just sort of self-combusted I was just like and I came to Adam and I said listen, I'm gonna go because I caught he was like, okay. I was like, what do you mean? Okay? He's like, well, you'll regret it. I know you you're gonna go home and you're gonna regret leaving. Yeah, I was like, okay well, I'm gonna do I say to know this wasn't 12 hours like six hours, which is a long time to be like mm-hmm. So I took a I took an episode off.

[55:04] Fred Gray: Yeah, lovely and I changed my costume and I changed my character. The first one I played was called Owen Bucks and he was he was returning to the town Western I remember and he was like really like troubled and he was trying to come back to recoup debts and say yeah and I was just like it was just such a heavy I'm just like and also because Adam's directing it. It's like you're you're you're coming back to plot lines. They're interesting wasn't so I came back with a guy I can't remember what his name was now but um, he was a locksmith. He was a locksmith. It was just really it's kind of a energy's a max. Yeah, really open. I just was interested in other people. Yeah, he was just learning about the town so he'd gone fix their locks baby talking to them and it wouldn't be about him and as soon as I did that soon as did that I I like had two wives like engaged got I proposed to two women in the next till the end I had like a bromance with it with a guy like I like we did a we shot a Western film in that like it was just I was just I'd I found myself walking on so obviously sleep deprivation is a thing but like I found myself going up on stage and improvising songs because obviously it's got this life school underneath and stuff and someone was singing and I just went I'm doing it.

Yeah but that's not that's I've never done anything like that and it was so freeing and it was all about being present with the person in front of you, right and just not worrying about yourself. Stop it. Oh my goodness if I could give a base of advice for life, I think we could.

[56:40] Charlie Russell: The other person yeah.

[56:43] Fred Gray: It's just so much more interesting.

[56:46] Charlie Russell: Okay, who in the cast Broadway cast it was.

[56:51] Fred Gray: The troublemaker whoa, I know but quick quick off top of your head. He's a troublemaker the troublemaker.

[56:58] Charlie Russell: Matt Cavendish.

[57:00] Fred Gray: Cavendish. You're all troublemakers though. Yeah all troublemakers. That's why it's a success.

[57:06] Charlie Russell: It's a success because you're all troublemakers. He's a teacher's pet.

[57:10] Fred Gray: Teacher's pet is Charlie Russell, is it me? I don't you don't have to say it's me but like I when I wrote this down, I thought maybe I shouldn't ask this question. I don't think your teacher's pet.

[57:23] Charlie Russell: Great. I don't think your teacher's pet.

[57:26] Fred Gray: No, because because you because you're because I don't know teacher's pet you have to do a lot like kissing us. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's why I said associated teachers, but you don't do that. Okay, you're not you're nice. Thanks. Um, of course, but but you don't do any of that sort of like, oh yeah, you know like it's you're very you're very when you when you receive a note, you're very thoughtful. Oh, you like receive it and you're like, okay, right? Yes, and then you get you maybe I'm trying to work out if I've understood it exactly but it's not it's not a default position of like, oh, thank you. Oh, you're a mate brilliant, you get you get that sometimes. Yeah, I don't think anyone maybe Matt Cavendish again, maybe he's maybe he's the sort of because he's just he's this like lovable rogue. Yeah, exactly.

[58:18] Charlie Russell: That's exactly so he he breaks the rules. He's a piece of he causes so many problems which we don't have time to talk about. Oh my gosh, that could be a whole podcast. So many.

[58:27] Fred Gray: He's very funny to make corpse. He's he tries to make me laugh exactly all the time.

[58:32] Charlie Russell: He does of course, it's so difficult. Yeah, but at the same time, he's a teacher's pet he'll never openly disagree or like he'll never cause a problem he'll never be late. No, he's so professional up for trying something. You're so right. That's why it's under the radar. He's poor. He's causing problems without being seen and that's why he needs to be out get him out because I mean it's not too late. We open we start rehearsals on Wednesday, but there are other maxes available we don't need to have him. Oh, finally. We found our allies in you know, sabotaging that kind of I just said actually I everything's written in the stars. We were talking about me playing Max when I'm gonna do it again.

[59:07] Charlie Russell: Oh yeah, now we're talking about Matt not being in not needing to be in the show.

[59:11] Fred Gray: Yeah, he's I can shave the beards. I can show you off. Great. I mean do it. No worries. Awesome. I know the lines you do. I know the lines. I'll put it to the office as well. Okay, cool. We'll do that from now. Sorry. Sorry Matt Matt if this is the first time you're listening hearing about this so this is why you got fired.

[59:26] Charlie Russell: Yes.

[59:28] Fred Gray: Stop breaking the rules.

[59:30] Charlie Russell: Stop undermining the show. I'm trying to make me laugh Matt presenting yourself as a professional. Yeah, please.

[59:37] Fred Gray: Well, this is definitely.

[59:39] Charlie Russell: Yeah, excellent. Well done and seriously though. Thank you very much for coming on the show it's been brilliant talking to you and hearing all the different perspectives and your experience of the show and and your experience as a director and an actor and working dad.

[59:58] Fred Gray: Thank you so much. It's of course what I asked you before what you were interviewed for this?

[1:00:04] Charlie Russell: Yeah, I think I was interviewed a long time ago. Maybe 2020 during the the lockdown. Um, I just feel that I want to sort of obviously not now I'm not, you know, we've got to finish but I feel that I feel that people might want to hear you.

[1:00:18] Fred Gray: Me more.

[1:00:20] Charlie Russell: Yeah.

[1:00:20] Fred Gray: So I think if that does exist then great but like maybe have someone interview you I mean I'm happy I'm happy to do it.

[1:00:27] Charlie Russell: Thanks. Absolutely. I feel like in a way I sort of sneak myself in because because doing the interviews I'm not in just asking questions. I'm like, oh it makes me think of this. So I feel like I'm just constantly under the radar Matt Cavendish under the radar sneaking myself into other people's conversations just more explicit, you know, I just think get yourself and get yourself an interview. All right interview yourself interview myself.

[1:00:54] Fred Gray: I don't think I could think of anything. I would love more. Um.

[1:00:58] Charlie Russell: Why not why not I think because that's bizarre.

[1:01:02] Fred Gray: It's really weird. But what a great setting but how many people will tune into that? I don't think anyone.

[1:01:07] Charlie Russell: Oh just hole who wants to hear me interview myself. All right, we've got we've got to shut up now. Uh, thank you all so much for listening to the Mischief Makers podcast there will be more episodes of course, there are more episodes you can listen to um where you found this podcast is where you can find the other episodes and you've got MischiefComedy.com where you can find out all information about Mischief and Mischiefy things and the Mischief people. Thanks again Fred and I'll see you on Wednesday big time and lyric theater for a seven-week run at the in the West End and then it's out again on on the UK tour which which will have some of the people in uh who are in the West End, but please check out the UK tour as well.

Oh my gosh they are unbelievable. And as I said, it's always it's always a different show to watch because people bring different things to to the to the parts and uh, they're definitely definitely worth. Oh, they're so great. I'm incredibly proud of every one of you if you're listening as well, okay see ya.

[1:01:59] Fred Gray: See ya.