This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Jayke Workman: Have I watched Hocus Pocus four times since October 1st?

[0:05] Sarah Mantell: Yeah.

[0:07] Jayke Workman: Am I concerned about that?

[0:09] Sarah Mantell: Um...

[0:15] Jayke Workman: Oh my god, did you hear?

[0:17] Sarah Mantell: Did you hear? Did you hear?

[0:18] Jayke Workman: Oh my god, guys.

[0:19] Jayke Workman: Jayke is a pod guy.

[0:20] Sarah Mantell: I can't believe Jayke is a pod guy.

[0:21] Jayke Workman: I can't believe Jayke is a pod guy.

[0:22] Sarah Mantell: Oh my god, Jayke is a pod guy.

[0:23] Jayke Workman: I can't believe Jayke is a pod guy.

[0:24] Sarah Mantell: Oh my god!

[0:26] Jayke Workman: Oh my god, Oh My Pod U Guys!

[0:30] Jayke Workman: What's up, everybody?

[0:31] Jayke Workman: My name is Jayke Workman, and this is Oh My Pod U Guys,

[0:34] Jayke Workman: a musical theater and pop culture podcast.

[0:38] Jayke Workman: You guys, welcome back.

[0:40] Jayke Workman: Hello, hello. I've missed you all.

[0:42] Jayke Workman: If you can hear any sort of weird little rumblings and such next to me,

[0:47] Jayke Workman: I do have a tiny Jack Russell Terrier sitting next to me chewing his bone,

[0:52] Jayke Workman: so that is neither here nor there.

[0:54] Jayke Workman: You're just going to have to figure that out.

[0:56] Jayke Workman: Because I'm not taking it away from him because I don't trust him to do anything else

[0:59] Jayke Workman: and not chew my couch.

[1:01] Jayke Workman: Cheers!

[1:02] Jayke Workman: Hi, welcome back to the show.

[1:04] Jayke Workman: You guys, I have an amazing interview with an awesome, awesome playwright and person,

[1:09] Jayke Workman: Sarah Mantel, for you.

[1:11] Jayke Workman: But before we get into that, we of course have to talk about all things Broadway.

[1:15] Jayke Workman: And where better to start than with the very thrilling news

[1:19] Jayke Workman: that my best friend Michelle Attardo made her Broadway debut in Chicago the Musical this week.

[1:25] Jayke Workman: And it was so beyond thrilling.

[1:28] Jayke Workman: And on top of that, you guys, Chicago the Musical continues to be the gift that keeps on giving

[1:33] Jayke Workman: because next month, November 16th,

[1:37] Jayke Workman: Chicago is celebrating its 30th anniversary on Broadway

[1:40] Jayke Workman: with a very special benefit gala performance,

[1:43] Jayke Workman: benefiting the Entertainment Community Fund's dance programs.

[1:47] Jayke Workman: And you guys, it is going to feature some very, very exciting people.

[1:51] Jayke Workman: Original cast members Bebe Neuwirth and Jim Naughton are coming back.

[1:55] Jayke Workman: I'm sorry, James, James Naughton.

[1:57] Jayke Workman: Everyone calls him Jimmy backstage, but I haven't met him, so I need to call him by his actual name, James Naughton.

[2:02] Jayke Workman: You guys, I'm thrilled.

[2:04] Jayke Workman: Former cast members Robin Hurter, Ariana Maddox, Whitney Levitt,

[2:09] Jayke Workman: and current star of the show, Reese Weaver, are all going to make appearances.

[2:15] Jayke Workman: Also, Alex Newell will be there.

[2:17] Jayke Workman: It's going to be a star-studded event,

[2:19] Jayke Workman: and I honestly can't believe that I get the honor of being the Mary Sunshine for the 30th anniversary company.

[2:26] Jayke Workman: So I'm thrilled.

[2:28] Jayke Workman: And yeah, huge shout out to my darling diva, Miss Michelle Itardo,

[2:32] Jayke Workman: on her Broadway debut in our amazing show.

[2:35] Jayke Workman: And you guys should check out tickets for the 30th anniversary on November 16th.

[2:40] Jayke Workman: It's going to be an amazing time, and it benefits a really amazing organization.

[2:45] Jayke Workman: Oh, by the way, you guys, that was announced on BroadwayWorld.com,

[2:48] Jayke Workman: and I have to give a huge shout out to my amazing pals at Broadway World for their continued partnership with my podcast.

[2:54] Jayke Workman: It's been a long, long journey doing this pod, but I love it so, so much,

[2:58] Jayke Workman: and some really exciting new things for the podcast are coming your way.

[3:04] Jayke Workman: But I'm so thrilled to get to still share my partnership with Broadway World

[3:09] Jayke Workman: and use all of their amazing news articles so that I can bring all the info to you guys.

[3:15] Jayke Workman: Speaking of which, we have to talk about the announcement of the upcoming Broadway revival of Three Days of Rain,

[3:22] Jayke Workman: starring David Cornswet.

[3:24] Jayke Workman: Oh, my God.

[3:27] Jayke Workman: You guys, Broadway World just shared the thrilling announcement

[3:30] Jayke Workman: that this production of Three Days of Rain by Richard Greenberg is going to be directed by Anna D. Shapiro,

[3:37] Jayke Workman: and it is going to be playing the Longacre Theatre this coming spring,

[3:41] Jayke Workman: officially opening on March 1st.

[3:43] Jayke Workman: And it's going to star David Cornswet, Francois Arnaud, and Ivan Strahovski.

[3:49] Jayke Workman: You guys, I actually have this, like, weird affinity for this play

[3:52] Jayke Workman: because in college I did this, like, deep dive, like, full-on project on this show,

[3:58] Jayke Workman: and I analyzed the hell out of it.

[4:01] Jayke Workman: So for some reason I've just, like, felt so connected to it since I did that and I read it, like, ten years ago.

[4:06] Jayke Workman: And so when I saw this, like, article pop up on Broadway World, I was like, wait, what?

[4:11] Jayke Workman: And to feature some really incredible performers, I mean,

[4:15] Jayke Workman: David Cornswet is, like, one of my current obsessions.

[4:20] Jayke Workman: So I'm thrilled. This is going to be amazing.

[4:23] Jayke Workman: Oh, and lastly, you guys, Broadway World shared the very exciting announcement

[4:27] Jayke Workman: that Nicholas Christopher is going to take over the role full-time of Bobby Darin

[4:32] Jayke Workman: in Broadway's Just in Time beginning November 10th, which is so exciting.

[4:37] Jayke Workman: I think, like, there's been, like, lots of speculation of, like, oh, who should be the next Bobby Darin?

[4:42] Jayke Workman: Who should take over? Is the show going to, you know, continue past, like, the fall?

[4:47] Jayke Workman: Like, who is the right person for it?

[4:49] Jayke Workman: And then I saw this casting announcement and I was like, this is so imaginative and inspired

[4:54] Jayke Workman: because while Bobby Darin was absolutely a real person,

[4:58] Jayke Workman: we get to use the storytelling device of any actor who has, you know,

[5:04] Jayke Workman: the wherewithal to play this role should be considered for it.

[5:07] Jayke Workman: And so this announcement of Nicholas Christopher is just so thrilling.

[5:10] Jayke Workman: And I've already seen the show, I think, three times, but I'm like,

[5:13] Jayke Workman: I guess I have to go back and see it a fourth because I'm thrilled. This is so exciting.

[5:18] Jayke Workman: So, yeah, he starts November 10th, which is really coming up.

[5:22] Jayke Workman: And you guys, with that, we have to talk to the amazing Sarah Mantel.

[5:27] Jayke Workman: Oh, my pod, you guys, I am so excited to welcome my next guest to the show.

[5:33] Jayke Workman: They are a non-binary playwright participating in the upcoming commission project

[5:38] Jayke Workman: by Women Plus on the Edge of Democracy.

[5:40] Jayke Workman: Please welcome into your ears Sarah Mantel.

[5:45] Sarah Mantell: Hi, I'm so happy to be here.

[5:47] Jayke Workman: Thank you so much for being here.

[5:49] Jayke Workman: I have been looking forward to this for the last few days.

[5:52] Jayke Workman: When your name came across my desk, I was like, oh, yes, I absolutely want to speak to them.

[5:57] Jayke Workman: How are you doing?

[5:59] Sarah Mantell: I'm so excellent.

[6:01] Sarah Mantell: This is such a crazy project and I'm so excited to get to chat about it a little bit.

[6:06] Jayke Workman: I know, me too.

[6:07] Jayke Workman: Well, before we dive into everything, I always ask my guests,

[6:10] Jayke Workman: where are you calling in from on this fine day?

[6:12] Sarah Mantell: Oh, I'm calling in from Washington Heights.

[6:14] Jayke Workman: Washington Heights, Manhattan girly.

[6:18] Jayke Workman: Where are you?

[6:19] Sarah Mantell: I am Upper West Side.

[6:21] Jayke Workman: Oh, you're not far at all.

[6:23] Jayke Workman: We could do this in person.

[6:24] Sarah Mantell: I know, exactly.

[6:25] Jayke Workman: But you know what the thing is about doing this podcast that I've learned?

[6:29] Jayke Workman: I've done it so many times now.

[6:30] Jayke Workman: This is probably like my 130th episode or something.

[6:35] Jayke Workman: But enticing people to actually come in person is like a whole other beast.

[6:42] Jayke Workman: So this, just getting to speak to each other over video is like more than wonderful for me

[6:48] Jayke Workman: because I get to, you know, connect with people who I otherwise might not have ever gotten to meet.

[6:53] Sarah Mantell: Yeah.

[6:54] Sarah Mantell: Yeah, we're so close.

[6:55] Sarah Mantell: We never ran into each other yet.

[6:57] Sarah Mantell: Now I'll run into you everywhere now that we know each other.

[6:59] Jayke Workman: That's exactly the thing, yes.

[7:01] Jayke Workman: Thank you so much for being here.

[7:03] Jayke Workman: I am so excited to chat not only about this project, you know, the Women Plus,

[7:08] Jayke Workman: I keep saying on the verge, on the brink of democracy.

[7:14] Sarah Mantell: I feel like that's as or more accurate.

[7:17] Sarah Mantell: Possibly at the end of democracy.

[7:20] Sarah Mantell: We're trying to figure it out.

[7:22] Sarah Mantell: This is 36 playwrights trying to figure that out.

[7:24] Jayke Workman: Exactly.

[7:26] Jayke Workman: But also, specifically, I got to read your piece that you wrote.

[7:31] Jayke Workman: Was it specifically for this project?

[7:33] Sarah Mantell: Yeah, yes.

[7:34] Jayke Workman: Okay, so it's called Aggressively Soothing Whale Sounds.

[7:37] Jayke Workman: And is it available to the public right now?

[7:43] Sarah Mantell: I think they're available to the public if you sign up to host one of these events.

[7:49] Sarah Mantell: Like the cool thing about this project is that you don't even have to be a theater.

[7:55] Sarah Mantell: There are like theaters all across the country doing it.

[7:57] Sarah Mantell: I talked to somebody on the team yesterday, and it was 33.

[8:02] Sarah Mantell: And I talked to somebody else, and it's snowballing.

[8:04] Sarah Mantell: It's 48.

[8:06] Sarah Mantell: But even if you have a community center or a library or you're a school or a college,

[8:15] Sarah Mantell: it's designed so that people can do a reading of one of the plays,

[8:19] Sarah Mantell: a reading of 10 of the plays, or all 36.

[8:23] Jayke Workman: Which is so fantastic.

[8:24] Sarah Mantell: So, basically, this umbrella project is playwrights coming together,

[8:30] Sarah Mantell: creating pieces based on the questions about our democracy right now.

[8:36] Jayke Workman: And you created a really fabulous piece, which we, of course, will chat about.

[8:42] Jayke Workman: But I'd love to know, just like even getting asked to do something like this as a playwright,

[8:47] Jayke Workman: what does it sort of mean to you to consider writing something that might actually spark conversation

[8:56] Jayke Workman: and create some sort of dialogue, especially in a landscape that is so based on commercial success?

[9:06] Sarah Mantell: This is a really cool opportunity for people to literally, like you said, you don't have to be a theater.

[9:11] Sarah Mantell: You don't even have to be a theater person, necessarily.

[9:13] Sarah Mantell: But these pieces of art are coming together or coming to people so that they can read them and start talking.

[9:20] Sarah Mantell: How do you even begin to consider what you're going to present as a piece for that?

[9:26] Sarah Mantell: I had exactly that problem.

[9:29] Sarah Mantell: In the piece that you read, I ended up talking about the three versions of the play I tried to write.

[9:34] Sarah Mantell: And that has not fared in.

[9:36] Sarah Mantell: I wrote it three different times.

[9:38] Sarah Mantell: I showed the last one to three dramaturgs.

[9:40] Sarah Mantell: Every time I rewrote it, it kept getting worse.

[9:43] Sarah Mantell: And at some point I realized there's a degree of honesty needed in the thing.

[9:50] Sarah Mantell: I was trying to get at something that I hadn't gotten close enough to.

[9:54] Sarah Mantell: And I was lucky enough to be a dramaturg as well as a playwright on this project.

[9:58] Sarah Mantell: And I honestly think the way that I figured out how to write it was by being in conversation with seven of the other playwrights

[10:07] Sarah Mantell: and seeing the breadth and the depth and the humor of what they all made.

[10:13] Sarah Mantell: The prompt itself is so big and weighty that I think it could be scary to be like,

[10:23] Sarah Mantell: well, how do I hold this whole thing?

[10:25] Sarah Mantell: And as soon as I started reading all the other playwrights' work, I went,

[10:29] Sarah Mantell: oh, I don't have to hold the thing.

[10:31] Sarah Mantell: We're all holding it together.

[10:33] Sarah Mantell: We're all holding a little piece of it.

[10:36] Sarah Mantell: The pieces that I was reading from these other writers were just so wildly imaginative and unique and funny and heartbreaking.

[10:46] Sarah Mantell: The project is international.

[10:48] Sarah Mantell: So one of the plays that I got to work on was about reading Little House on the Prairie in Northern Ireland during the Troubles.

[10:58] Sarah Mantell: One of them was about Betsy Ross ushering democracy into the underworld because the Founding Fathers passed it off to her.

[11:07] Sarah Mantell: One of them, the characters were chickens.

[11:10] Sarah Mantell: One of the characters were bees.

[11:12] Sarah Mantell: I mean, there's just like people sort of like leaned very far into their individual voices in this way that's really just kind of thrilling the scope of it.

[11:22] Sarah Mantell: And when I saw that, that's when I went, okay, I have to write sort of the most honest thing.

[11:30] Sarah Mantell: The thing that hurts a little to write.

[11:32] Sarah Mantell: The thing that's a little scary to write.

[11:34] Sarah Mantell: That's when it's the right thing.

[11:36] Jayke Workman: Well, I loved getting to read your piece.

[11:39] Jayke Workman: And from an actor's standpoint, of course, I was like, oh, I want to be the person performing this because it feels like such a rich monologue.

[11:49] Jayke Workman: And I love, too, that there are so many moments where you as the writer basically just call out like,

[11:57] Jayke Workman: well, what I just said was all completely fiction.

[11:59] Jayke Workman: I made all of that up.

[12:01] Jayke Workman: No, none of it's real.

[12:04] Jayke Workman: But there's honesty in the point of it all, which I love it.

[12:04] Jayke Workman: I was really intrigued by specifically the moment where you comment on how basically our system is set up right now where you are either institutionalized or running the institution.

[12:16] Jayke Workman: And there's nothing in between.

[12:20] Jayke Workman: And I think it was really impactful to me because it's framed in such a comedic way.

[12:28] Jayke Workman: It's very light.

[12:30] Jayke Workman: And the way that you have said all of this.

[12:33] Jayke Workman: But it's so, so true and so poignant.

[12:36] Jayke Workman: And I'd love to know, like, you know, is that does that normally come into play in your writing?

[12:42] Sarah Mantell: Are you typically someone who is able to maybe comment on profound things through a lens of comedy?

[12:52] Sarah Mantell: I think the darker the thing is going to go, the funnier it has to be for me.

[13:00] Sarah Mantell: Partly because that's just how my brain works, especially like as a queer person and as a Jewish person,

[13:09] Sarah Mantell: I feel like that's that's sort of encoded in DNA somewhere.

[13:15] Sarah Mantell: But also, I think, you know, laughter is the thing that lets us in.

[13:20] Sarah Mantell: And then when we drop, we drop from a higher height.

[13:20] Jayke Workman: Beautiful.

[13:22] Jayke Workman: I also love the idea of there being I mean, you mentioned it briefly, but like,

[13:36] Jayke Workman: you know, this sort of like inherited this DNA, these genes of like staying genes versus leaving genes.

[13:36] Sarah Mantell: You know, finding your way out of things and a lot of people I think right now in thinking of this cohort and this sort of project to bring people together.

[13:49] Jayke Workman: A lot of what we're talking about in the realm of democracy in our country is finding the escape route.

[13:56] Sarah Mantell: And so you're you're commenting on the inherited leaving genes, you know, finding finding the way out was really, really interesting and cool to me.

[14:09] Jayke Workman: And I'd love to know to like where have you had that thought before you were given this, this opportunity to write this piece like was that something that you've considered before?

[14:20] Sarah Mantell: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[14:20] Sarah Mantell: I mean, I think, you know, when we even just when we talk about natural selection,

[14:33] Sarah Mantell: there's also like this unnatural selection of like what has happened generations after generations.

[14:37] Jayke Workman: Totally.

[14:37] Sarah Mantell: To any particular family or group of people.

[14:46] Sarah Mantell: Just happenstance.

[14:46] Sarah Mantell: Yeah.

[14:46] Sarah Mantell: And like we, you know, generations of my family have fled from all of these different places and the people who didn't flee didn't make it.

[14:51] Sarah Mantell: So I'm I'm I've come from generations and generations of pessimists.

[14:51] Sarah Mantell: And then you go like, OK, like maybe at some point this is maladaptive.

[14:56] Sarah Mantell: I really also have to be able to like live in one place to experience joy.

[15:00] Jayke Workman: Sure.

[15:01] Sarah Mantell: Yeah. Yeah. So I think about it a lot.

[15:06] Sarah Mantell: Yeah. And this was just sort of the perfect container for that thing I hadn't figured out how to talk about yet. I mean, not to like, you know, sort of boil it down to one specific thing, but one of my favorite pieces of theater is Cabaret and the idea of, you know, the staying versus leaving and especially with the element of Jewish people in that show and everything and how blatantly Kander and Ebb just posed this position of like, what would you do in my position? I have to go versus it'll all blow over. You know, this is like, let's just stay and enjoy the party. Like, I think it is really hauntingly relevant to today. I was lucky enough to see the revival a couple of times, you know, before it closed last year. And I don't know, it still just rings so true. And so I'm so excited to read more pieces from all of like the women and non-binary people who are participating in this.

[16:05] Jayke Workman: But would you would you speak a little bit more about the actual project? Like, yeah, like timeline wise, this is all sort of gearing up toward the November like, you know, midterm elections and all of those things. But like, what is the goal of all of these playwrights coming together and putting forth art basically for free?

[16:29] Sarah Mantell: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's to get a bunch of people in the room talking. It turns out I was talking to Leslie, who’s the head of the Blackburn Prize last night. And this project, they founded it six months ago and then got 36 writers on board who are winners and finalists of the Blackburn Prize, which include Lynn Nottage, Sarah Ruhl, Haruna Lee, Heidi Schreck, A.K. Payne, Heather Raffo, Gayle Orland Smith. Like, it's yeah, it's it's it's nuts. And we all wrote these 10-minute pieces and they're free to do readings of or perform like one of them, 10 of them, however many you want. Some organizations are doing it themselves. Some cities, they haven't announced them yet. So I'm not allowed to give you specifics, but like there are cities where like five different theaters are collaborating together to put a ton of them up.

[17:30] Jayke Workman: So amazing.

[17:31] Sarah Mantell: And it's really it's like you just go on the website and you let them know you want to do something. I mean, it's really kind of like a very, very low effort and very high reward project that they pulled off in six months. It's so amazing. And then they're all going to be available online. And it's also being published as an anthology by TCG. And Flynn in Vermont is doing literally all of them in one day from what they believe is going to be noon to midnight at the moment.

[18:04] Jayke Workman: Oh, my God.

[18:05] Sarah Mantell: And that's yeah, so that's coming up as well. There's like the one theater that that helped commission it is. Yes. It has committed to literally all of the all 36 of them. And so that's the Flynn Center that's in Burlington, Vermont.

[18:21] Jayke Workman: Yes, it is. Yeah. OK. Yeah. Fantastic. Are you going to be there in person? Are you able to?

[18:24] Sarah Mantell: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I can't I can't miss it. It's just like it's just a crazy confluence of all these writers that I love. I mean, I think like that's that's been such a huge part for me of being a part of the Blackburn Prize. It's just the history of like all of these writers that I love. And in this particular project, we're also getting to interact with each other across generations and across years of the Blackburn Prize, which doesn't happen as much like I know all the finalists from my year. And I've been able to attend like most other years and meet people. But like we're it's like there are people writing who are in their 80s. There are people who are in their 20s and everything in between. And so there's this sort of there's something communally that's happening around it in addition to the art that's kind of magic.

[19:23] Jayke Workman: Totally. And I wonder, like, is there any type of element to this for you where you wish that you maybe had eyes and ears on like the number of people who are going to read these pieces, not even just like, you know, internally reading them, but like having doing readings with friends or like the conversations that are going to come from this, like, is there even is there a forum or a place that they could maybe like send you their remarks and their thoughts about like the conversations that they've had about your not just your piece, but all the pieces from the project?

[19:58] Sarah Mantell: That's such a good idea. I'm going to pass that on to the prize and see if there's a way to do that. That's a great idea. I mean, it might just spark some really amazing, even just like edits and writing to build on the pieces that have already been submitted, because I loved getting to read yours. And I again, you know, I already said this, but like I could not help but read it from an actor's perspective on like how I would perform this and how the timing of it and the nuance of the comedy versus the sincere and poignant. Like it's it's really special. And so I'd love, I think, to know what other people get. You know, that's the one I've never published anything without workshopping it.

[20:45] Sarah Mantell: Yeah. A bunch of actors first. So it was sort of like it was a very crazy thing to just sort of throw it into the world and go like, you know, trust fall like people. People have got me. Actors have got me.

[20:58] Jayke Workman: Totally. And not even necessarily like people who you'll ever encounter. You know, there are people who are just going to take from what you've written, whatever they want. And it's kind of up to them, like what what they decide to do with it.

[21:14] Sarah Mantell: I actually I haven't asked them if I'm assuming that when people sign up, they identify which plays they're going to do. But I don't know if I will even know like what cities, what spaces.

[21:26] Jayke Workman: Yeah. And at the moment, it's 26 states.

[21:31] Sarah Mantell: They're at 26 states now. They're aiming for 50.

[21:35] Jayke Workman: That is so amazing.

[21:38] Sarah Mantell: So, yeah, so it'll be I won't be able to see the majority of them, probably.

[21:43] Jayke Workman: OK, so in thinking of like, you know, the sort of scope of this, I would also love to know, because it is called Women Plus on the edge of democracy. And you, as someone who identifies as a non-binary person, perceivably also assigned female at birth in the realm of being in queer spaces, spaces with women like. Can you talk a little bit about the Venn diagram between writing to and for women and also being a non-binary person? And maybe like, is there overlap? Is there do you ever feel like you can only speak to certain elements of one room and certain elements of another room? Like, how do you go about writing in terms of that and in terms of the gender of it all?

[22:37] Sarah Mantell: That's that's such an interesting question. I mean, historically, the Blackburn has been a prize for cis women. And I'm the first. I'm the first out non-binary writer to win the prize.

[22:51] Jayke Workman: Yeah, let's fucking celebrate that for one second.

[22:55] Sarah Mantell: My God. You know, the most lovely part of that was that, well, it took me like I was like sitting in my house for an hour after I won it, just like losing my mind about whether that was accurate. I think I asked Leslie seven times if she was serious. And then I sat I sat like just without moving, I think, in my house for about an hour. And then I texted her and said, wait, am I the first out non-binary person to win this prize? And she said, yeah. And then then her next question was, do you want us to talk about it? Which I just like I loved that it was on me to decide how much I wanted to get about that.

[23:32] Jayke Workman: Yeah.

[23:35] Sarah Mantell: I was like, because there can be like something kind of like othering about like making it about identity sometimes. But I also and I, you know, I wanted to soak it in as like as a writer just in general. Totally. But I also was like, if we if we do talk about this publicly, it's going to mean that theaters will send in work by more non-binary writers, by more assigned male at birth, trans feminine, non-binary writers. I was like, actually, I think it's like it's very important to mark this moment. And since then, A.K. Payne has also won it. Else went as a part of this. I believe.

[24:21] Jayke Workman: Yeah.

[24:25] Sarah Mantell: And so it's it really it's we're living in a moment where the Blackburn Prize is expanding.

[24:31] Jayke Workman: Yeah, pretty significantly.

[24:31] Sarah Mantell: But in this case, I did end up writing a play about my grandmother. And something I think there was there was something about the sort of like generations of inheriting femaleness that felt. They felt it felt like the right the right moment to write that, like that particular story would be held in a particular way.

[24:56] Jayke Workman: Yeah.

[24:58] Sarah Mantell: In this space. I mean, I think like as a non-binary writer, I also like I'm very aware that I'm read as female a lot, too. So there's also like, you know, in which rooms do I insist on this in which rooms? I mean, I think like I'm I'm a little bit the non-binary consultant for the Blackburn Prize as like as the first person as well. So there's like I think that it's kind of amazing to be in that moment of the like in a historic moment.

[25:30] Jayke Workman: Yeah. Absolutely. It's so fantastic.

[25:30] Sarah Mantell: I mean, I well, you know, now I'm opening a can of worms, but I as someone who identifies as non-binary, I have often counted myself out of certain rooms and opportunities and things because of the fact that women and women's identities are separate from me. And so while I can feel so connected to women and and I feel very feminine in, you know, my my every day, I never want to encroach. There's a hard line. There's a difficult line to sort of cross and blur when it becomes, you know, I identify as non-binary. But when something is by and for women, how much can I take and how much can I give? You know, it's a really it's a really interesting thing. But in reading your piece and in thinking of your grandmother, fictional or not, I connected so quickly to it because I was the first born grandchild in my family.

I was born, you know, assigned male at birth. And so I was the grandson. And then all of my sisters and cousins and everyone else after me were all girls. And so it was an interesting thing to think of, like my grandmother, who I call Ginga, as like this sort of matriarch in my family. And then, I mean, I was always non-binary, like as a child. I was, you know, the duality of like me carrying around a baseball bat. But like I was wearing glittery tap shoes and a skirt. Like it was just all of it. It was all encompassing. But yeah, in thinking of that, I remember just, you know, reading your piece and being like, oh, wow, I remember my grandmother, you know, being this matriarch and thinking like, wow, I've inherited something from her, this femininity.

And yes, but not necessarily wanting to claim it because I was a boy. And so it's like a strange I don't know where I'm going with this, but basically just, you know, wondering if you've ever had moments like that too, of like the non-binary identity versus, you know, embracing the feminine and being a woman.

[27:55] Sarah Mantell: Well, one thing I'll say is I feel more. I feel better in those spaces when you're in those spaces. So so please, when I'm there, please come. I you know, I I had a conversation actually like at a dinner after the Blackburn Prize one year with somebody who sort of like didn't know anything about gender diversity and was like asking me questions about it. And at some point I said to her, like, like, I think maybe there are there ways in which you have also felt like you don't fit into the box that is female. This like very cis person. And she was like, oh, yeah, all of these. And then she started listing ways. And I think we're the people naming it. But I actually think this is a probably a universal human experience.

[29:15] Sarah Mantell: Yeah, not to not fit into these fake binary boxes like we know, you know, intersex people exist. There are totally dozens of different forms of physical sex. And then so many forms of gender that have been like recognized by cultures across the world for forever. And I think that like the binary men and women thing is just like a piece of the white supremacy thing that we've all inherited.

[29:23] Jayke Workman: One hundred percent.

[29:25] Sarah Mantell: I think we like when we come out as what we are and when we enter these spaces, which are sometimes uncomfortable. But like when we enter these spaces, we also open them up for all the people who are just like a little farther to the edges, but who also don't feel like they belong there. Like, yeah, I I was performing femaleness for decades.

[29:53] Sarah Mantell: And I have a cousin who came out as non-binary like 15 years before me. And yeah, and like, you know, broke open that dam in my family and it took me longer to get there. But I'm so grateful to all the ways that that like, opened things up for me, even before I claimed it as my own space.

[30:14] Jayke Workman: Yeah.

[30:16] Sarah Mantell: And actually, like, we're, like, we were, we were both, you know, assigned eldest daughter at birth. And then we've both gone, you know, sort of like to the other side of things. And, but we could not be more different genders.

[30:30] Jayke Workman: Like, sure.

[30:31] Sarah Mantell: My cousin is like, my cousin is transmasculine, glitter gay, non-binary. And I am like, like flannel, like flannel, like extremely dykey, non-binary. Like, it's just like, as like, as we'll be like, I found this pink thing. And I'm like, get it away from me. I can't. Like, we're just completely different, even though we come from the same family in the same direction. And it's like, it's such a, it's such a, like, we're making, we're making space, actually, for other people when we walk.

[31:02] Jayke Workman: Well, I love the dichotomy of that. But also, in thinking of, wait, oh my god, also dichotomy, d-y-c-o-t-o-m-y. Okay, that's a book title somewhere. It happened earlier, you guys. Earlier.

[31:19] Sarah Mantell: Yeah. So in thinking of your piece that you wrote, I also wondered, because you, you pretty explicitly wrote, like, this, this character, who is like a narrator, Derek.

[31:34] Jayke Workman: Yes, yeah.

[31:35] Sarah Mantell: Who you said, like, if you can't get the actual Derek, store-bought's fine.

[31:39] Jayke Workman: Yes.

[31:40] Sarah Mantell: What is the significance of that? And, like, I wondered about, like, the gender play of, like, having a perceivably male person, you know, present this, this piece.

[31:52] Sarah Mantell: Yeah, I just, I was thinking about all the places in the world where, you know, these plays are going to go up, if mine went up at, you know, all 40, 50, something of them. And I was like, are they going to be looking for, like, somebody who matches all of my specific identities? Like, that is not, well, no, not even harder. Like, it's less accurate. Like, I think, I was, I was talking to a colleague the other day, and I said, I feel more comfortable in the middle of a bridge than on either side of it. Like, in every, in every sense. And I was like, like, I want you to get somebody who, like, sort of sounds like my play and feels like my play, not somebody who happens to be non-binary Jewish, assigned female at birth, white, 5'3", you know?

Like, I was like, please don't cast me as me. I just, I just clarified with them on the website to have it be, you know, any gender. But I just, like, as I was writing it, I started picturing my friend Derek, who's about a foot and a half taller than me, in this role, like, with a, like, unfolding a tiny piece of crumpled paper and trying to, like, read my writing and do, and do a job. And he's, he's a spectacular actor, but also, like, and we have, like, a very similar sort of, like, soul and a very similar, actually, like, we're both obsessed with Topo clothing, even though, you know, we're at opposite ends of the height spectrum. And I was just like, this is just, it's just funny to me for him to walk on stage and be like, hi, I'm Sarah. Like, no, I'm not, I'm not, but I'm Sarah.

[33:29] Jayke Workman: Yeah. So it was just, it was just, it was the funniest possible way for me to write it. And then I was like, I hope that that gives people permission to perform this with, like, whoever is the right person for it, like, outside of identity.

[33:40] Sarah Mantell: Absolutely. Well, I also, I love the idea of you writing as Sarah versus writing other things that you have put out into the world that, like, kind of have nothing to do with who you are specifically as, as a playwright. Like, did you, did you ever consider, specifically for this prompt, writing something that wasn't pertaining to you? Or was it very, like, oh, no, this is, this is personal, personal enough that I need to write it from my perspective?

[34:05] Sarah Mantell: Oh, no, that's what the first, like, two, three versions of the play were. I was like, can I just, like, write a thing that's funny that, that is just, that is actually, like, the play with characters who aren't me? I, I don't, I don't write, I think there are plays that I really love where the, the main character is an avatar for the writer. I love those plays, but it's not how I write. Except, I guess, when I explicitly write, like, this is me speaking as. It's very binary, in fact. Like, there's no in between. But so I went from writing these, like, you know, oh, here are these characters at a massage parlor, or these, here are two characters, and there's somebody's going on in PR, or, like, here are these whale sounds.

I was, like, I was writing all of these versions, but I was like, can I write, like, a funny thing that holds this prompt? And then at some point, I realized that all of those plays were, like, about figuring out when to leave. And that, like, that's the thing that, you know, lives in my genes in this very particular way, and the honest way to write it. And the only way to, like, I think it really helps to be sort of, like, running alongside a bunch of amazing writers and being, like, yeah, I've got to, like, bring it, or I won't keep up, you know? Like, yeah, I just read, like, you know, Migdalia Cruz's play, and Heidi Schreck's play, and I was like, okay, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta cut to the heart of it.

[35:38] Jayke Workman: Yeah, if I want to, if I want to cut to this company, yeah, because it's, because it's a ridiculous company. And I think that's the other thing, like, I think all of us were a little bit intimidated by all of the other people. Which is hilarious, because you're equally incredible, as if you didn't win the fucking Blackburn Prize. You're like, well, I don't know if I could possibly hold a candle to, please.

[36:04] Sarah Mantell: Well, I think it's just, like, sort of the weight of all of the plays together, and the breadth of all of them, and like, yeah, it's just, it's, I can't wait to see what combinations people make of, like, the funny ones, and the heartbreaking ones, and the, like, the solo plays, and the multiple people, and all the different, yeah, all the different permutations of this thing.

[36:20] Jayke Workman: I absolutely agree. Well, I, of course, I'm so thrilled to, I'm hoping that I can specifically, like, link your show, or attach it to this episode in some way. Aggressively Soothing Whale Sounds, because it's so delightful, and so, so poignant, and true, but.

[36:32] Sarah Mantell: Can I ask you, are you the first out non-binary person to play Mary Sunshine on Broadway?

[36:42] Sarah Mantell: I believe I am, yes. Which is, like, kind of a crazy thing. Yeah, I think I, for a while, I didn't even really think about it, and then, in terms of the gender of it all, you know, it is a very binary play.

[37:00] Jayke Workman: Yeah.

[37:00] Sarah Mantell: There are, you know, there's the female ensemble, the male ensemble, there's the female principles, and the male principles, and so, for a while, I was like, oh no, is this sort of reveal, it, you know, as, as Mary Sunshine at the end of the show, where I take the wig off, and ta-da, I've been someone who you didn't think I was. I thought for a long time that that was going to negatively contribute to the world in some way, of like, you know, we've duped you, and then, the more I thought about it, I was like, well, I'm the non-binary person doing it. I, I get to claim it, and own it, and say, like, there is duality in, in who I am, and what I do, and so, the kind of, like, kind of, like, jokes on you, I can do all of it, you know, like, you, you bought into the binary of it all, because of whatever you thought originally, but there's more here, and so, that, for me, was, like, kind of a shift, but yeah, I do think I am, I am the first person to, you know, use the they-them pronouns as Mary, and, and sort of claim it in that way, but it's pretty, it's pretty magical.

[38:13] Jayke Workman: We did have, oh, forgive me, what is her name? This marvelous trans woman came in, and played Roxy, and she was the one, I'll have to insert her name after, because it's escaping me, but she was the one who actually went to the powers that be at the show, and said, hey, this reveal, while it is important, it's a plot point, you know, it's literally this big thing, it's an outing, it was being done where Billy Flynn was pulling the wig off of Mary, and so, she went to, you know, stage management, and company management, she was like, hey, we should change this, it should be a self-reveal, and so now, that's it, and so it was, it took one person being like, hey, just because, you know, this is what I feel, and this is, this is my truth, it should change, because it's, we're 30 years into this, like, we can adapt, and we can, and so now, I, I take my own wig off, and I do the reveal, and it's a celebration, and not a, you know, public outing, and so that's been, like, a really cool thing to navigate to.

[39:32] Sarah Mantell: That's, that's very moving. It's very special.

[39:39] Jayke Workman: Yeah. Kind of crazy. There's, there's, there's something really fascinating about all of us sort of, like, moving into this theater history, where, like, these, all these roles were, like, for us, were sort of hiding in these weird ways, and like, bringing them to the light.

[39:56] Sarah Mantell: Totally. And just, and shifting them so they're ours. And I do think, too, there is something to, I mean, of course, we have things like Six celebrating trans women, and we have, I mean, in, in the commercial sense, you know, these, these big Broadway shows that are including trans people, and Oh Mary, and the, the revival of 1776, but I would also, I, while I love it, and it's so necessary, I look forward to the day that I get to play a woman, and there's no comment on it. There's no questioning. There's no, how, how wonderful that they gave that non-binary person the opportunity to play a woman. You know, it's like, no, no, I, I sing like a lady. I, put me in the ensemble, put me in a bustle in the wig, I'm a lady.

And then one day, maybe, I'll go into the male ensemble. I could play a man, sure, if you want me to. But, like, I would love for there to just be less of the, the commentary on it, and more of just the normalcy. Let's just do it. I mean, like, we, we're in a profession that has so much to do with range. Talk about range.

[41:12] Jayke Workman: Entirely.

[41:14] Sarah Mantell: Yeah. Or like, you know, do you not want understudies who can play across gender spectrum?

[41:21] Jayke Workman: That's what I'm saying. I literally, and it's so funny you say that, because I did, before I took over full-time as Mary, I actually went to the music director of Chicago, John Bell, and I was like, listen, I know it's kind of a long shot, because this is a legacy show. You know, things have been done in this building a certain way for a long, long time. But I know the show, like, the back of my hand, because I've listened to it a thousand times. Like, I've done it so many performances.

[41:46] Sarah Mantell: Like, literally a thousand, not metaphorically.

[41:49] Jayke Workman: Yes. And so I was like, I, I know Mama Morton. So I could literally go on for it tomorrow. I know every line. I know every step. I know every song. And he was actually kind of the first person who really took me seriously and was like, wait a second, that's, that's not a bad idea. If we needed somebody, you know, last minute, whatever, the understudy of the understudy is out and we don't have anyone else, like, that's an option. And I was like, yes, we're breaking through. We're changing things.

[42:22] Sarah Mantell: That's amazing.

[42:23] Jayke Workman: Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty special. But Sarah.

[42:26] Sarah Mantell: Have you written about that somewhere?

[42:29] Jayke Workman: In my journal.

[42:30] Sarah Mantell: I, I, I don't know, maybe approach American Theater Magazine or one of these places. Like, I feel like that.

[42:35] Jayke Workman: Should I?

[42:37] Sarah Mantell: Yeah. Like, I think that's, it's, it's, it's a microcosm of so much of what's going on in the field. And I think a lot of times people just don't think about it until, until they hear something or they read something. I mean, we just said it on the pod, so it's out in the world.

[42:51] Jayke Workman: Yes. I know exactly. I'm like, is this my think piece? Is the podcast my thing?

[42:56] Sarah Mantell: Yeah.

[42:57] Jayke Workman: Well, thank you so much for entertaining that conversation. And thank you so much for being here. I'm, I'm so delighted to chat with you.

[43:06] Sarah Mantell: Same here. I'm so glad we got to meet this way.

[43:09] Jayke Workman: Yes. I cannot wait to share this episode and get more people involved in maybe even writing, contributing to this project, but also just creating readings and, and getting the pieces out there because it's really special. This is so cool.

[43:26] Sarah Mantell: Thank you. What a treat.

[43:28] Jayke Workman: Yes. Thank you so much for being here. Can you tell the listeners, can they find you anywhere on the socials or keep up with your writing in other places?

[43:37] Sarah Mantell: Yes. You can find me on the socials. You can find me on my website at sarahmantel.com. You can find this project at democracy.flinvt.org. Come find me all the places.

[43:51] Jayke Workman: Hell yeah. I cannot wait to do a deep dive. I was like, the second I finished reading this piece, I was like, Oh, I guess I have to read all of their writing. Perfect.

[44:01] Sarah Mantell: Yes. Let's make a thing together at some point. Oh my God. I would love it so much.

[44:04] Jayke Workman: Oh my God. Absolutely.

[44:06] Sarah Mantell: Yeah. Let's we'll meet in the middle between Washington Heights and yeah.

[44:11] Jayke Workman: Perfect.

[44:16] Jayke Workman: You guys, that's it for another episode of Oh My Pod, you guys. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe anywhere you listen to the pod. And you can follow the show on Instagram at Oh My Pod, you guys. And stay tuned for some very exciting things coming soon. We have video coming your way and some very special guests that may or may not include a world famous homosexual comedian named Matteo Owen. Thank you so, so much for listening. Talk soon. Bye.