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[0:00] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's theatre podcast. Your backstage pass to revealing conversations with stars, creators, and industry leaders, on Broadway, off Broadway, and on the high seas. I'm Gordon Cox. On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking to the Tony-winning musical theatre icon, Bernadette Peters. But we're not chatting in a studio for this one. We're talking on stage, in front of an audience of a couple thousand people, on the Broadway Cruise. Last month, I sailed on the Broadway Cruise for the second year in a row, with performers and artists including Matt Doyle, Christian Borle, Cheyenne Jackson, Norm Lewis, Santino Fontana, Janine Tesori, Ali Stroker, Reeve Kearney, Abby Mueller, and more.

I was the guy on board who interviewed those talented folks on stage after they performed, or moderated panels about the ins and outs of Broadway and the theatre business. On that trip, the first person I got to talk to, on stage, on the pool deck, as we sailed from Miami to Key West, was Bernadette Peters. Now, we're sharing that conversation with you here on Stagecraft. I'm guessing Peters won't need much of an introduction for listeners of this podcast, but just to give you some context, the award-winning star of Sunday in the Park with George, Into the Woods, Hello Dolly, and more, was talking to me just after she performed a 90-minute concert for everyone on board, in a set featuring songs from all across her career, with a particular emphasis on the work of her frequent collaborator, Stephen Sondheim.

She did her show, she had a costume change, and she turned around and came right back on and sat down to chat with me, and with some of the audience members, who also had some great questions for her. There's also a special guest appearance by another Broadway star on board with us, Carrie Butler, who you've seen on Broadway in shows like Hairspray, Xanadu, and Beetlejuice. Now, here's Bernadette.

[1:47] Bernadette Peters: Hi.

[1:51] Gordon Cox: Hi.

[1:52] Bernadette Peters: You're so young and handsome.

[1:54] Gordon Cox: Aw, shucks. I bet you say that to all the boys.

[1:57] Bernadette Peters: I don't.

[1:59] Gordon Cox: You did a lot of Sondheim this evening.

[2:01] Bernadette Peters: I did.

[2:02] Gordon Cox: Up until very recently, you were doing a show full of Sondheim called Old Friends.

[2:06] Bernadette Peters: I was.

[2:07] Gordon Cox: It was on the West End, and just a few days ago, it was nominated for an Olivier Award for Best Entertainment and Comedy. Congratulations.

[2:14] Bernadette Peters: Thank you. Thank you.

[2:16] Gordon Cox: Did you enjoy being back on the West End?

[2:18] Bernadette Peters: I've never played on the West End.

[2:20] Gordon Cox: Oh, that was your first time. I didn't know that.

[2:21] Bernadette Peters: Yeah. I mean, I've done concerts in London, but I never had a run. I never played on the West End. It was my first time.

[2:26] Gordon Cox: And how was it?

[2:28] Bernadette Peters: It was great. I love London, you know. And to everyone in the show, the theater people there are terrific, and the audiences love the show, and they were wonderful and enthusiastic and sweet and everything. It was very fulfilling. It was nice. I was very happy for Steve, too, that we could do that.

[2:51] Gordon Cox: Are there differences to being on Broadway in terms of the audiences or the experience for you backstage?

[2:57] Bernadette Peters: No. Actually, the audiences were very enthusiastic for this show. So, I mean, it's the only show I've done there, but I found them to be wonderful.

[3:08] Gordon Cox: What's it like for you to immerse yourself in Sondheim's work so much after he's passed? What's that experience like for you?

[3:18] Bernadette Peters: The thing about what Steve has written and what he writes is that it's so well-written. Is that how I should say it? There are so many layers. He has thought through it so deeply, because he writes for character, that you just never get tired of singing his songs. And there's always something to discover. It just takes you to an experience. And so, every time you do it, something else can happen. And that's what I love about it.

[3:59] Gordon Cox: Do you have a favorite song of his that you like to sing?

[4:02] Bernadette Peters: No. I mean, I love singing No One Is Alone. I think that's an important song. And then I love singing the ones that are written for character, where you get very immersed in what's happening, what's going on with the character. I like that, too. That never gets old.

[4:24] Gordon Cox: What's the hardest of his songs to sing?

[4:27] Bernadette Peters: When I had... You're trying to remember which... It was... There was something in the park. When we went back and did the reunion, I actually had to really go back and relearn some of those notes. He'll pull those notes. But otherwise, because he writes for character, it actually is like following the map of what's going on. It actually takes you, helps you, bring you along.

[5:06] Gordon Cox: When you were on the West End, did you enjoy being back on that rigorous Broadway West End schedule, going to the theater most every day?

[5:13] Bernadette Peters: I did. I did. We were on a Monday through Saturday schedule with just Sunday off. And I realized in Broadway, most of the time, you now do a Tuesday through Sunday matinee. And having that extra night and day, it actually restores you a little bit more. You have a little bit more energy.

[5:41] Gordon Cox: When you were on... You mentioned Hello, Dolly! when you were on Broadway. What's your sense of how Broadway has changed over the years?

[5:49] Bernadette Peters: Well, I feel it's become more accessible. It's become... Because of Disney and because of those shows, you have a more varied audience that are being exposed to it. And therefore, because you have more of an audience that go, well, I like this going to a live show, then there's more opportunity for other kinds of shows because the audience, you have the audience.

[6:27] Bernadette Peters: Not too long ago, The Music Man was on Broadway. So you still have those kinds of shows. And then you have Sweeney Todd, which is Sondheim. And there's all kinds of... I love the Dylan Show. What was that called? Something County, was it called?

[6:50] Gordon Cox: Oh, Girl From the North Country. Yeah.

[6:51] Bernadette Peters: Girl From the North Country. Yeah. I mean, I love that one. I mean, there's so much that can happen on Broadway, and that's what's exciting.

[7:01] Gordon Cox: In addition to Stephen Sondheim, are there other musical theater composers to whom you feel really connected or whose work you really respond to?

[7:10] Bernadette Peters: I don't know if it's because I've worked with them, but when I went into Hello Dolly, I have to say I had no idea. I mean, as I said, I saw Carol Channing do it that one time. That's the only time I actually really saw the show, but I had no idea how well constructed that show was. I mean, because they used the Thornton Wilder, some of the Thornton Wilder. Actually, it was one big long monologue that she said at the end of the show, of the play. But Mike, what was his name? Mike, who wrote the book. Stewart, thank you very much. Mike Stewart. And I worked with him on Mike and Mabel. Mike Stewart, he cut it into three sections, and it went throughout the show. And then at the end of the show, you have all the young lovers singing their song.

I mean, it's just really beautifully constructed. I had no idea. I had no idea I was going to enjoy it so much. But until I said, well, let me read the script, and then I read the script, and I went, oh, this is really, I'm really, so I really, really, so there's Jerry Herman.

[8:33] Bernadette Peters: Yeah, Jerry Herman deserves a hand, too.

[8:38] Bernadette Peters: I have been, I mean, there are wonderful young writers. I mean, Janine Tesori, who's on the boat, and Adam Goodall. I mean, all those, there are other wonderful writers.

[8:56] Gordon Cox: Hello, Dolly, of course, is a comic role, largely. Do you think of yourself as a comic actress or a dramatic actress, or is there one that you gravitate to more?

[9:01] Bernadette Peters: I think I've now blended both of them together at this point in my life, which makes it just more enjoyable for me. So at this point, I'm enjoying both sides of the coin.

[9:25] Gordon Cox: In addition to your stage work, you do a lot of film and TV as well. How have you thought about theater fitting into your career as you continue to do screen work?

[9:32] Bernadette Peters: You know, I let the universe bring to me whatever is going to come. When I ever tried to manipulate, oh, I'd like to get that job, it never worked out for me. It's always like, oh, what's going to happen next for me? I think it's a good way to approach life, too. I mean, of course, not if you have to go to work every day, nine to five. I mean, I'm not like that. Obviously, you need to make a living. But I mean, as far as trying to be open to the good things in life that can come your way, I like to think of it that way.

[10:05] Gordon Cox: Working on screen is kind of a different skill, in some ways, to working on stage. Are there things that you have taken from your screen work that you carry back with you as you work on stage?

[10:11] Bernadette Peters: Well, truth is the most important thing. And it's just a matter of that the camera catches any little thing that you do. You learn that. And so that's the part that's different from perhaps stage. But the truth is really where it all has to stem from.

[10:43] Gordon Cox: Who has been your favorite stage co-star?

[10:51] Bernadette Peters: Is he here tonight? We'll find out.

[10:54] Bernadette Peters: My favorite favorite? Well, I have a few favorites. There is one. There's two on the boat, actually. Well, please tell us. Did you know that? I did not know that. Okay. Well.

[11:11] Bernadette Peters: I love Norm Lewis. He has the most beautiful voice and he has the most beautiful soul. He's a lovely, lovely, lovely person. So I loved working with him. I actually did Songhain. We did a show with Wynton Marsalis' orchestra. It was called A Bed and a Chair and it was wonderful. And then Santino Fontana came into Hello Dolly and we had a ball. He tried to make me laugh all the time, but he was great.

[11:46] Gordon Cox: Did he succeed? Did he break you?

[11:53] Bernadette Peters: Yeah. He didn't laugh, but he got to me a couple of times.

[11:59] Gordon Cox: Of all of your stage roles, is there one that you consider most challenging that was sort of hardest for you to really get a handle on?

[12:04] Bernadette Peters: I guess when I first went into Sunday, I had to feel my way through the... The first number I had was that number, Sunday in the Park with George, with a lot of breath control and a lot of words, a lot of remembering. And so that made me very nervous. But I have to say that in rehearsal, I just loved... The second number that we worked on was Color and Light with Mandy Patinkin, who's another genius, was painting and I was powdering. And I just, I fell in love with the show when we were rehearsing that song. I just thought it was just so beautiful and swept me away.

[13:06] Gordon Cox: What do you consider sort of the biggest lesson you've learned over the course of your career in terms of your development as an artist and as a professional?

[13:10] Bernadette Peters: Well, first of all, I've always said that never try to copy anyone because you can be inspired by them. But what you have... Probably the reason you're inspired by them is because they found their core and what comes out of them is original to them. And that's what you must do for yourself. I think the biggest lesson is just to be generous, I think, to be generous.

[13:51] Gordon Cox: Yeah. You have played many of the greatest roles in musical theater. You've originated a few of them. Are there any that you'd still love to play?

[13:57] Bernadette Peters: I think I've done most of them. You know, it's so funny. Steve would go, what was the one? Sometimes he would... Someone would say, oh, you know, she should do a little light music. And he'd go, well, maybe. And then all of a sudden it would hit him. And he'd see me and he'd go, oh, you have to go into a little light music. You know, all of a sudden he sees me in the role. But he didn't see me, you know, unless he was writing it for me, right away in things. So I guess the only last one I hadn't done was Mrs. Lovett. But I don't know even if... I don't know, you know, I mean, that's the only one I guess I haven't done.

[14:54] Gordon Cox: Would you like to?

[14:56] Bernadette Peters: You know, I have to be honest, I was never drawn to it. I have to be honest about that. But, you know, he writes such interesting things. And, you know, I could kick it around.

[15:19] Gordon Cox: Is there a musical theater role, let's say for a male character or some other role that you would maybe not be cast in, in many cases, for whatever reason, that you have always wanted to play?

[15:24] Bernadette Peters: Is there a male role?

[15:33] Gordon Cox: Yeah, for instance, like something that you would maybe not generally be cast in, that you've always thought, oh, I'd love to have a go at that, or to sing that song.

[15:40] Bernadette Peters: Oh, I'd play Sweeney Todd.

[15:47] Gordon Cox: Do you know, when I was here on the cruise last year, Alan Cumming was here, and he said, oh, no, I don't want to play Sweeney, I want to play Mrs. Lovett. So maybe that's our revival.

[15:58] Bernadette Peters: That would be fun.

[15:59] Gordon Cox: Can we make that happen?

[16:00] Bernadette Peters: Yeah. No, I've been pretty lucky, I have to say. And I've been given such wonderful roles to play. And I'm usually in love with each one as I'm doing it.

[16:13] Gordon Cox: Of the Tony Awards you have won, one of them was for your charitable works with Broadway Barks. Can you tell us a little bit about sort of what the impetus was for that, and the co-founding it, and why it was so important to you?

[16:26] Bernadette Peters: Well, we had lost our beloved golden retriever, and it was time we wanted to go and adopt a dog from a shelter. So we went to, first we went to the ASPCA, and we got Kramer. And then we went to the city shelter. And then we realized, I realized how much help they needed. They needed so much help. They had cages in the hallways on top of each other. And they had amazing dogs there. They had purebreds. They had beautiful dogs that for some reason became homeless. They weren't bad dogs. They weren't bad animals. And I was talking to my dear friend Mary Tyler Moore about it. And then when I was in Annie Get Your Gun, I think, we had won Gypsy of the Year, or the Easter Bonnet, actually. And we were feeling really good.

And we would say, well, what else could we do? And I said, well, we went to the city shelter, and they really need some help. And so we came up with the idea of doing an adoption event in Shubert Alley. And I called Jerry Schoenfeld at the time, and he just was worried about who's going to pick up the poop. But we assured him that that was not a problem. And Mary got on board. And all the celebrities, it's now become their event. They come out from the Broadway shows, and they have a great day, and they have a great time. And it's actually like, it's really pet therapy. And you feel like, how can I do a show and come out between, and then you feel so good to go back to do the show. And so, and now we actually, during the pandemic, I called my friend Elaine Page in London, and we did West End Wolves.

We did it virtual. But this year, when I was in London, we did it live. So we took it to London to help the dogs there. And nothing could make me more proud than this, than this charity that we've started.

[18:46] Gordon Cox: I'll have more with Bernadette right after the break.

[18:55] Gordon Cox: Welcome back to my conversation with the Broadway legend, Bernadette Peters. I'm about to hand the mic over in a few minutes over to some folks in the audience who have some really great questions for you. But before I do that, I ran into someone on board earlier, who had crossed paths with you in the green room. And she was so excited to say hi and tell you about her personal connection to Broadway Barks. And then she found herself unable to say hello in that moment, and then was kicking herself ever since. And I said, well, I think probably we should ask her up and give her a moment to say hi. So Kerry Butler, do you want to come up and say hi to Bernadette?

[19:31] Kerry Butler: Hi! Hi! So I love Broadway Barks so much. We've performed in it so many times. And the last time I went, it was during Beetlejuice. And my daughter, we were really wanting a dog. And my husband's like, you are not getting a dog. My daughter was like, I just really want to see mommy perform in Broadway Barks. Meanwhile, he should have known that was a lie, because my daughter can't stand to hear me sing. True. She's like, stop saying. But so we all went, my husband went, and we fell in love with my dog. And we adopted him. My husband was very stressed out. He actually got shingles because he was so nervous. But now he loves him. He is like the joy of our lives. And it's from Broadway Barks. I have to show you a picture sometime.

[20:28] Bernadette Peters: Thank you so much. Thank you. See what can happen if you come to Broadway Barks.

[20:35] Kerry Butler: Oh, and the Broadway Cruise is giving you $5,000 for Broadway Barks.

[20:44] Bernadette Peters: I'm so thrilled. Isn't that great? Oh, thank you. Thank you. What's your dog's name?

[20:51] Kerry Butler: Milo.

[20:56] Bernadette Peters: What kind of dog is he?

[20:56] Kerry Butler: He's a mutt. We just did that thing where you can find out. We haven't found out yet.

[21:05] Bernadette Peters: How big is he?

[21:05] Kerry Butler: He's like that big, like 40 pounds. He's perfect. Perfect. Highly recommend going to Broadway Barks. It's an amazing event.

[21:08] Bernadette Peters: Oh, thank you, Keri. Thank you.

[21:13] Kerry Butler: Thanks, Keri. Yay! Thank you, Keri.

[21:17] Gordon Cox: And now we're going to hand it over to the audience. I'll hand it over to you.

[21:21] Kyla: Hi, my name is Kyla and I am a nurse practitioner in pediatrics from Pittsburgh. A lot of children look up to you and your characters. My question is, what was your dream role you wanted to play when you were a child or what show really inspired you to be in Broadway?

[21:37] Bernadette Peters: You know, I used to watch a lot of television as a child and I was really lucky because Ed Sullivan was on and Ed Sullivan used to have all the Broadway shows on. But I think what really inspired me to sing is I used to watch all the... We had great TV specials too back then with like Lena Horne and Tony Bennett and Frank Sinatra and they were so great that, you know, then you'd end up singing to yourself in the bathroom mirror, all that kind of music. But

[22:23] Bernadette Peters: I kept thinking I went to all the Broadway shows, but we didn't because we had enough money either for lessons or go to Broadway. So we took the lessons, but I was watching Broadway on Ed Sullivan all those years. So all those performers that would come through and do numbers from Broadway were just, that's what got me to Broadway.

[22:44] Jean Marie O'Neill: Hey, I'm Jean Marie O'Neill and from North Carolina. And my question to you is, when you were growing up, was acting what you wanted to do?

[23:06] Bernadette Peters: Well, I was always sort of, well, I was in it since I was a little girl. I found myself in show business. Like five years old, I was singing on television, The Horn and Hart is Children's Hour. And so I always found myself in it. And it was something that I always did. And I think as a teenager, I really began the outlet of all the emotions that a teenager feels, I think really came out in my studies of singing and acting and all that. So it was basically interesting because I found myself in the business. And then I learned my, I kind of was learning my way around the stage as a little girl. So I was ready by the time I was really getting roles. And it just was my path, my fate, really.

[24:11] Jamie Sauerberger: Hi, Bernadette. I'm Jamie Sauerberger, healthcare administrator from St. Louis, Missouri. Huge Broadway fan, huge Bernadette Peters fan. So thank you for being here. You're just an icon and I love you. So here's my question. It's twofold. At what point in your life did you realize that you had made it as an artist? And are there any artistic performances that you regretted accepting?

[24:43] Bernadette Peters: That I regret accepting? Well, I was in an off-Broadway show called Dames at Sea. And you see, that's where I got my training. So when I would come home from, it was about a 1930s, it was a takeoff. It was a 1930s musicals camp. But when I would come home from school at three o'clock, the million dollar movie was on at four o'clock. And that's what they showed. They showed those movies from the thirties and the forties. So I knew exactly how to walk, how to stand, how to do the whole thing. And so when I was in that show, all of a sudden it was a big hit. It was off-Broadway, but it was downtown, but it was in New York and it was a big hit. People started talking to me in the street. And I'm going, oh my God, people are talking to me now in the street.

I felt like I just had more friends, but I realized that, oh, this is fun. I have more friends in the world, but I guess in a way that kind of made me realize that now I was not quite as anonymous, but it was joyful. It was fun. I'm not going to tell you the role that I regret doing. You'll have to figure it out.

[26:19] Audrey Perrino: Hi, Bernadette. So wonderful to be here with you. My name is Audrey Perrino. I'm from Portland, Oregon, originally from the East Coast and fun fact, my nephew-in-law is Ted Firth.

[26:33] Bernadette Peters: Oh, we love Ted, he's so brilliant. Another musical director, right. And so we will be at Carnegie Hall in October cheering you both on.

[26:40] Audrey Perrino: Okay. Looking forward to it. My question also two-part, what was it like the first time you worked with Stephen Sondheim and did you sense then that your collaboration would span decades and many shows?

[26:54] Bernadette Peters: No, I didn't. I ended the second, I was answering the second part, but as I, it was at first because Sunday in the Park was such a big undertaking for what it was and the music and the role, especially as I said that first, the first song I was given was the first song in the show, which is quite a lot of words and a lot of breathing and a lot of everything going on. So I was, I think Steve makes everybody nervous, but I was nervous at, that's so I hear, I was nervous at first and then I loved when he was around and I loved when he was in the audience and I loved getting his notes and I, I just, you know, I had no idea that I was going to be doing so many collaborations with him and I just, it was a great gift to be able to work with him and to enjoy him as a person. He had a great sense of humor. I really, really just adored him, so.

[28:09] Megan: Hi, I'm Megan. I'm an actress and technician from Ohio and I have loved you for as long as I can remember. Thank you. My question is, if you had to pick your most favorite costume of all time, which costume would it be?

[28:25] Bernadette Peters: Oh, I have to say I love the closing a little night music, just those beautifully and they were black in the first act and white in the second act and they were just all creamy and beautiful and, and, and we all corseted up inside before we put the, the dresses over them and I just thought they were really, really beautiful.

[29:03] Pat: Hi, Ms. Peters. My name is Pat. I'm from Denver, Colorado. Hey, so many people, scholars, fans, et cetera, have called you Sondheim's muse. Obviously you've arguably played more Sondheim characters than anyone else. So what do you think his contribution to the musical theater canon has been and what do you think his legacy will be in a hundred years?

[29:19] Bernadette Peters: Oh, I think that he has given us so much, so much music, so much to think about, so many characters to get involved with, to be swept away with. I think he puts the human condition up on the stage and many different lights and many different eras and many different ways of being. I mean, if you think of the canon and the depth and the breadth, you know, from the funny thing happened on the way to the forum, which is all funny and light. And then you go to Sweeney Todd and I, you know, to me, he's our Shakespeare. That's how I feel about it. I think that that's how he'll be remembered for hundreds of years.

[30:30] Cindy Boyer: Hi, Ms. Peters. I'm Cindy Boyer from Rochester, New York, and take a breath because I think I'm your last question. There's no going to say, I think we're related. Take a breath.

[30:47] Bernadette Peters: Wait, got to put on my glasses. It's my half-sister. Yeah, I will accept that honor. Got to put on my glasses. Sorry, I'm not off book. Okay. I'm interested in hearing your comparison of creating a role in a new musical with creating a role in a musical revival. Do you have a preference? Which one do you find more challenging or more rewarding? And which one do you want to do next?

[31:12] Bernadette Peters: Well, I always said when I did revivals that it has to feel like fresh. It has to be a new musical. It's not a walk. It can't be a walk down memory lane. They said, oh, remember when How It Opened? It should be like this person appears, whoever it is, however the show opens. And you have to go, oh, who's that? That's an interesting person. What's going on? What's going on? I mean, you have to be engaged right away as soon as the show starts, no matter if it's a revival, and hopefully it's well-written, if it's a revival or if it's a new show. And I'm not opposed to doing either if it's well done. And hopefully, we'd all try to do them and make them well done. And which one do you want to do next?

[32:25] Bernadette Peters: One that's not written. I don't know. You heard it here first. New show. I have to take, put a suggestion in the suggestion box. Put a little thing in there. Well, thank you so much for being here, Bernadette. Thanks for chatting with us. And thank you for your show tonight. It's great to talk to you. Thank you. Nice to see you all. Thank you. I'll see you all on board.

[33:04] Bernadette Peters: Thanks for listening, and see you at the theatre!