This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally.

[0:02] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm Andrew DeWolf.

[0:04] Liz Estes: And I'm Liz Estes.

[0:06] Jesse McAnally: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, the spooky podcast where I try to get spooky Andrew and Liz to like spooky musical theatre.

[0:28] Jesse McAnally: This is our official Halloween episode! We're wearing costumes, trust us. I'm wearing a Halloween shirt.

[0:34] Andrew DeWolf: I'm wearing a Disco Elysium shirt.

[0:36] Liz Estes: I'm wearing a Princess Lily shirt. That's a costume.

[0:39] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, that's a costume. You're dressed as a scene kid.

[0:42] Andrew DeWolf: I'm dressed as Emma from The Prom, but the good one, which is just my general wardrobe.

[0:54] Jesse McAnally: Um, so, how are we doing today, guys? On this spooky Halloween night? Just had some adventures lately, you know?

[1:03] Andrew DeWolf: You too?

[1:04] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, I'm about to take my old van out and just kind of go for a drive with my lovely GF, who we're gonna-

[1:09] Andrew DeWolf: My fiancé.

[1:10] Jesse McAnally: Your gamer GF!

[1:12] Andrew DeWolf: My fiancé. You know, we're gonna get married. You know, we're just driving in the woods. You know, just for fun.

[1:20] Jesse McAnally: Did you enter the spooky castle too?

[1:22] Andrew DeWolf: Not yet.

[1:23] Jesse McAnally: Oh, okay. I'm in the spooky castle. That's gonna happen later. I mean, I don't know what's gonna happen later.

[1:30] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know what's gonna happen later, because this is really an actual story. So, yeah, oh my goodness, my tire broke down.

[1:38] Jesse McAnally: Oh, there's the spooky castle. Let's go inside, I guess.

[1:42] Andrew DeWolf: Hello.

[1:43] Jesse McAnally: Oh no, the guy in the spooky castle.

[1:45] Andrew DeWolf: Oh no, it's the guy in the spooky castle.

[1:47] Jesse McAnally: Oh shit, Meatloaf is here. Who invited Meatloaf?

[1:51] Andrew DeWolf: Oh no! He's come to kill us! He's got the pickaxe! Who let him have the pickaxe? We have to get out of here. Meatloaf is in the house. Not Meatloaf!

[1:54] Jesse McAnally: See our much-feuded history with Meatloaf before his untimely death somewhere, I don't know. On YouTube, and on podcasts.

[2:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, and a wonderful video edited by Liz Estes. With the YouTube video, you can see screenshots.

[2:12] Jesse McAnally: Yes, so you know we weren't lying. But, Meatloaf was in the Rocky Horror Picture Show, which is what we're talking about this week.

[2:20] Andrew DeWolf: Michael Rennie was ill the day the Earth stood still. But he told us where we stand. And Flash Gordon was there in silver underwear. Claude Rains was the invisible man.

[2:35] Jesse McAnally: Then something went wrong for Fay Wray and King Kong. They got caught in a cellular jam. Then at a deadly pace, it came from outer space. And this is how the message ran.

[2:51] Andrew DeWolf: Science fiction. Double feature. Doctor X. We'll build a creature. See androids fighting.

[3:21] Jesse McAnally: The film premiered in the U.S. in Los Angeles and had a nine-month run. But its 1975 Broadway debut at the Belasco Theatre lasted only three previews and 45 showings, being a horrific disaster, despite earning one Tony nomination and three Drama Desk nominations.

[3:35] Andrew DeWolf: Various international productions have spanned across six continents, as well as West End and Broadway revivals, and eight UK tours.

[3:55] Jesse McAnally: The plot of the show is, Sweethearts, Brad and Janet, stuck in a flat tire during a storm, discover the eerie mansion of Dr. Frankenfurter, a transvestite there-were-not-mine scientist.

[4:22] Andrew DeWolf: As their innocence is lost, Brad and Janet meet a house full of wild characters, including a rocking biker, a creepy butler. Through elaborate dances and rock songs, Frankenfurter unveils his latest creation, a muscular man named Rocky.

[4:37] Jesse McAnally: We all fucking love the Rocky Horror Picture Show, right?

[4:52] Andrew DeWolf: It's horny. I mean, but it's still kind of like, you know, high school horny, where it's just kind of like the idea of sex rather than the act of sex.

[5:12] Jesse McAnally: It's so transgressive is because it is so kind of gender ignorant, where it doesn't really because if when you think porn parody of Frankenstein, you think of like, building a bride of Frankenstein with big tits and like, Oh my god, what are you doing here? And that where it's not that it's like goofy kind of what if we built like this really beautiful man, and I have sex with everyone in this house?

[5:38] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I think some people would say that you have to be gay to enjoy this.

[5:42] Jesse McAnally: Who would say that?

[5:43] Andrew DeWolf: Somebody in the New York Times, I think. I read it somewhere.

[5:49] Jesse McAnally: Benjamin Brantley.

[5:51] Andrew DeWolf: I think it was on their Wikipedia. Somebody reviewed this and said that you would have to be a homosexual to enjoy this show.

[5:58] Jesse McAnally: That's really stupid.

[6:00] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, absolutely. I was just quoting that. I thought it was very funny.

[6:03] Jesse McAnally: It is a very funny thing to say. But no, this show rocks. It is so simple. It is so stupid. And I love every second of it, more or less. It has interesting, it is aged in an interesting way. I've seen a lot of folks a little younger than us critique it and say it's a really kind of hurtful representation of a lot of modern gender ideas, which, yes, but we

[6:29] Andrew DeWolf: It's not a representation of modern gender ideas. The show was written in the 70s.

[6:33] Jesse McAnally: Yes, and for the queer community in the mid 20th century, this was kind of a mecca of gathering and letting people kind of embrace what is odd and what is weird and let it be normal and mainstream for just one night.

[6:49] Andrew DeWolf: I don't think the young people appreciate how quickly in the past couple years all of the like gender ideology and stuff has advanced in the mainstream, which is good, but also it's good. But in the 70s, this was like absurd. Like, it's ridiculous. It's even got in theaters, I feel like.

[7:09] Jesse McAnally: For context of how much we've aged over the years, in, I want to say 2009, Glee did a Rocky Horror episode where they were not allowed to say transsexual.

[7:21] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[7:22] Jesse McAnally: I don't remember how they censored it.

[7:23] Andrew DeWolf: And they wouldn't let a man dress in drag. They just had a woman dressed as Frankenfurter.

[7:28] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, they made Amber Riley do it.

[7:31] Andrew DeWolf: I'm just a sweet transvestite from sensational Transylvania.

[7:43] Jesse McAnally: One of the first things we talked about, oh, we're going to do Rocky Horror and you're going to play sweet transvestite part.

[7:49] Andrew DeWolf: You know, I said, like, we've never did this on Full House, so this would be a fresh look for me.

[7:53] Jesse McAnally: I didn't want to direct the episode of Glee that made parents turn off the TV.

[7:57] Andrew DeWolf: And then, like, a day later, they said, oh, you're doing, you know, whatever happened Saturday night Hoppatootie and you're singing it tomorrow.

[8:04] Jesse McAnally: Like that, that is that is how subversive this is that even like that's like 30 or 40 years after the original even came out and they still weren't allowed to do it on TV.

[8:16] Andrew DeWolf: That's one of the worst episodes of that show.

[8:19] Jesse McAnally: I get it. And it's perfectly fair to critique things, but I feel like sometimes we get a little too into the weeds of, like, let's critique things.

[8:26] Andrew DeWolf: And because we have these critiques, you can no longer watch this and enjoy it.

[8:31] Jesse McAnally: And I don't think that's a good mindset to have.

[8:33] Andrew DeWolf: There are some things that using that mindset is good for.

[8:38] Jesse McAnally: Let's say something like Chasing Amy, where it thinks it's like this big progressive thing that's really helping the community when it really is this really horrific kind of deconstruction of a male fantasy of what LGBT themes are.

[8:52] Andrew DeWolf: And this feels much more like coming from a wholesome place.

[8:56] Jesse McAnally: And the important context of when it was released is equally as important.

[9:01] Andrew DeWolf: And the fact is, it has no ideology in a weird way.

[9:05] Jesse McAnally: It means nothing aside from like the biggest like political statement it has is don't dream it, be it.

[9:11] Andrew DeWolf: And Nixon resigning in the radio.

[9:13] Jesse McAnally: Really, what this show is actually about isn't hateful in any way at all.

[9:18] Andrew DeWolf: It's more just about like, honestly, I feel like the message of the show is have sex with whoever you want, like all the time.

[9:25] Jesse McAnally: It is one of the more sex positive things we've ever covered on this podcast.

[9:32] Andrew DeWolf: Which I guess that that actually that is a controversial message to have nowadays when everyone I'm just going to say everyone is kind of a prude a little bit.

[9:41] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, like first for like, I think the problem with that is, and here's where we get to unpack our society today.

[9:51] Andrew DeWolf: Here is what I think is happening.

[9:54] Jesse McAnally: And I've put on this hat before.

[9:57] Andrew DeWolf: And a lot of communities say trans LGBT and all that they have been seen as quote unquote sexual beings just by their existence.

[10:06] Jesse McAnally: So they're trying to remove that stigma.

[10:08] Andrew DeWolf: But at the same time, which this show, this show doesn't help that.

[10:11] Jesse McAnally: No, it's admittedly.

[10:12] Andrew DeWolf: No, like this is not.

[10:14] Jesse McAnally: This is what the conservatives think drag brunches are.

[10:17] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, they think that Frankenfurter is actually out reading to your kids and bringing them into a bed and being like, isn't that fun?

[10:24] Jesse McAnally: Yes, it is.

[10:25] Andrew DeWolf: Truly, I get that form of issues and the sexual assault issues.

[10:31] Jesse McAnally: But this is a borderline a roadrunner cartoon as far as like tone goes.

[10:36] Andrew DeWolf: It's yeah, like I don't know.

[10:38] Jesse McAnally: It's so it's so cartoonish that I feel like you can't take it seriously and critique it in that way.

[10:44] Andrew DeWolf: No, you can't.

[10:46] Jesse McAnally: But I feel like a lot of it is our modern day is trying to dissociate a lot of like the queer community away from the sexual nature that it was stigmatized as in the mid 20th century.

[10:58] Andrew DeWolf: And in doing so, a lot of like the best sex positive pieces of media are being tamped down and removed of all sexuality and all kind of showings of sexual nature.

[11:13] Jesse McAnally: And because you don't want to sexualize things, but it's also like, well, we kind of do want to sexualize some stuff, right?

[11:20] Andrew DeWolf: Like sex is OK.

[11:22] Jesse McAnally: People have sex in real life.

[11:25] Andrew DeWolf: You can't prove it.

[11:26] Jesse McAnally: I can't prove it.

[11:27] Andrew DeWolf: I don't believe you.

[11:28] Jesse McAnally: My mom has never had sex.

[11:31] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, totally.

[11:32] Jesse McAnally: I got to I got to return some videotapes.

[11:34] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I do, too.

[11:37] Jesse McAnally: So that is my stance on sex positivity.

[11:40] Andrew DeWolf: It is still a shocking show like watching it today.

[11:44] Jesse McAnally: I've seen this movie and the stage show so many fucking times.

[11:48] Andrew DeWolf: I go every year to the Shadowcast.

[11:50] Jesse McAnally: In fact, in a few weeks in Michigan, they're doing like a sleep no more style Rocky Horror in a mansion where they drag you room to room and you're like a part of it.

[11:58] Andrew DeWolf: You're like one of the Transylvanians.

[11:59] Jesse McAnally: I'm so fucking excited.

[12:01] Andrew DeWolf: But this show still shocks me with like some of its sexual nature and just how I don't know yet.

[12:07] Jesse McAnally: I'm so excited, though.

[12:09] Andrew DeWolf: And they give you booze while it's going on.

[12:11] Jesse McAnally: I am so fucking excited for this.

[12:14] Andrew DeWolf: And yeah, I am sorry.

[12:16] Jesse McAnally: That is me just talking about my real life and how much joy I have in theater.

[12:21] Andrew DeWolf: That being said, a lot of it does ring differently.

[12:25] Jesse McAnally: Like, but there's like pieces that still work and it's all very stupid.

[12:30] Andrew DeWolf: It's so stupid.

[12:32] Jesse McAnally: But I think the movie is better than the stage show by a country mile.

[12:35] Andrew DeWolf: And that is a rare thing to say.

[12:37] Jesse McAnally: Like, how often do you get a movie that is perfect as is?

[12:41] Andrew DeWolf: You got this little shop of horrors.

[12:43] Jesse McAnally: Anything else as far as our 270 episodes or so that we've done?

[12:47] Andrew DeWolf: Where the movie is just the best version?

[12:50] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[12:51] Andrew DeWolf: There's a lot to think on there, but you're probably close to right.

[12:55] Jesse McAnally: There might be like one or two more.

[12:57] Andrew DeWolf: But realistically speaking, those are the two that would come to mind as far as like they're definitely better than the stage version.

[13:05] Jess McAnally: Yeah, and truly the movie is funny because of the editing, the mise-en-scène, all the things that make a movie good, the timing of everything, and it's become so iconic that no matter what, if you're doing this on stage, if you're recreating or doing anything with it, it's just going to be an imitation. There is no way to play Frank-N-Furter that isn't an imitation of what Tim Curry did with very specific choices. Part of the reason why I didn't like Laverne Cox's production of "Let's Do the Time Warp Again" from a few years ago is Laverne Cox, bless their soul, is just doing a Tim Curry impression. Reeve Carney is just doing a Richard O'Brien impression. The only one doing something different is Annaleigh Ashford. But that's how you know that you had a perfect movie, is that when you're going to remake it, you're just like, hmm, well, how do we recreate those exact performances? Well, it's like, wait, but why are you remaking it then?

[13:57] Andrew DeWolf: Exactly. So for context, I wanted Andrew to understand what a shadow cast and a live version of this would be. So I showed Andrew and Liz the 2015 live production that was streamed to theaters and had a lot of guest narrators and was very, very British theater intensity.

[14:18] Jess McAnally: Oh my goodness, it was. Who did I recognize? It was like Stephen something came out?

[14:23] Andrew DeWolf: Stephen Fry.

[14:24] Jess McAnally: Stephen Fry came out, yeah.

[14:26] Andrew DeWolf: Mel of Mel and Sue fame.

[14:28] Jess McAnally: The British Bake Off lady, she brought a cupcake.

[14:31] Andrew DeWolf: Richard O'Brien, of course, played the narrator at one point.

[14:34] Jess McAnally: And Anthony Stewart Head came out.

[14:35] Andrew DeWolf: And Emma Lunt.

[14:36] Jess McAnally: Who?

[14:38] Andrew DeWolf: Baby Spice.

[14:38] Jess McAnally: Oh, we covered Spice World in this show.

[14:41] Andrew DeWolf: We did cover Spice World, I was there. I should know these things.

[14:45] Jess McAnally: You know, somebody from my work once brought up Spice World and was like, it's one of my favorite movies. And I was like, what?

[14:52] Andrew DeWolf: I want to talk to that person.

[14:56] Jess McAnally: You know, Meatloaf was also in Spice World. Maybe there's a connection.

[14:59] Andrew DeWolf: Also, Meatloaf did make a cameo in that Rocky Horror Glee episode along with Barry Bosman.

[15:03] Jess McAnally: Yes, he did. Both of them are parts of the reason why I think that movie works so well. As far as, well, let's talk about that stage production really quick. Tell us a little bit about that, Andrew.

[15:08] Andrew DeWolf: You know, I'm just going to bitch a little bit because that's all I'm good at. God, I really hate how they brought the movie culture to the stage and had people yelling stuff at the actors. This is, like, unrelated to the actual production, I feel like. But it isn't really because you have to sit through it. When you go to the stage show, you do have to sit through it. Like, Jess, can you explain the B-movie culture?

[15:41] Jess McAnally: So, for when the Rocky Horror Picture Show started playing at midnight screenings, there developed a culture where they would call out to the screen, making fun of it, being very vulgar, calling, like, Janice a slut and Brad an asshole, and just coded lines that everyone just now knows and repeats every night ad nauseam. And in future productions now, that is something that happens with audience members. In the early 2000s, I believe it was 2001 Broadway Revival?

[16:12] Andrew DeWolf: 2000 Broadway Revival, starring Rollo Sparza as Riff Raff and Tom Hewitt as Frank-N-Furter. Very weird cast.

[16:19] Jess McAnally: I'm pretty...

[16:20] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, that is also weird for other reasons. They were very inclusive about that and catering to that. However, worth bringing up and very weird. So, that cast had Daphne Rudenbaga, Alice Ripley, ew, and as Columbia, they had Joan Jett.

[16:39] Jess McAnally: But the problem is, Joan Jett got a lot of that cast addicted to drugs.

[16:43] Andrew DeWolf: That's so funny.

[16:46] Jess McAnally: She's like, you want to do some hard drugs with me backstage?

[16:52] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, before we rehearse.

[16:54] Jess McAnally: Yeah, so a lot of those people got pretty hardcore addictions from that production because of that. And this is all hearsay, but it's hearsay with a lot of evidence.

[17:06] Andrew DeWolf: That's not good at all, but it is pretty funny.

[17:08] Jess McAnally: No, it is not good at all. Like, weird, I think is the best way to describe it. Not condoning drug addiction.

[17:15] Andrew DeWolf: No, it is a very serious thing, but the rock and roll culture coming to Broadway, that's often why you don't see it very often outside of Meat Loaf. Meat Loaf was on something, because I mean, his brain got all fucked.

[17:29] Jess McAnally: He was on the horse medication that he took for his COVID.

[17:34] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[17:36] Jess McAnally: He was on something and it started with Q and it ended with Anon. But yeah, there is a call and response thing that developed in the movie theater that everyone knows and feels entitled to be able to participate in at this point. The only other thing I can think of is "The Room" has that, where you like, when you watch it, you throw spoons at the... And I feel like with movies, it's fine and it's funny, because when you do it, the movie just keeps playing, you know?

[18:02] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it doesn't elongate a moment.

[18:05] Jess McAnally: Yes, in a stage show setting, everyone is laughing at themselves telling the joke. And when Stephen Fry came out, my god, that sequence was forever. He said like five lines and it just kept going, because they had a little quip to put in between every line and then they paused for like five seconds and then Stephen Fry was like, oh, I've never heard that one before. It's like, oh my god.

[18:36] Andrew DeWolf: Words that kept repeating themselves again and again in Janet's thoughts. But it was too late to go back now. It was as if she were riding a giant...

[18:51] Jess McAnally: I have tidal wave, but cock is better. Sorry, I'm just gushing about that.

[18:56] Andrew DeWolf: No, and I agree with that. I feel like it's part of the reason why the theater... Because it's now the actors accommodating the audience and it should never be that.

[19:04] Jess McAnally: Yeah, and like, you don't want to tell the audience to shut the fuck up, but maybe you just got to keep going, like the movie would keep going, you know? But aside from that, how did you enjoy the performances?

[19:16] Andrew DeWolf: I actually, I really like the original orchestration for a lot of it. I love how fast the music was in the original. I think the movie is perfect, but I do appreciate the different sound for the stage. I thought that the music and everything was very good, and like the performances were all fine. It definitely got like a I'm trying to be Tim Curry vibe from the guy playing Frank N. Furter, but maybe that's just how you're supposed to play Frank N. Furter, like at this point. I don't know, like how do you play a different Frank N. Furter?

[19:45] Jess McAnally: You can't really. You were talking about your production, where you had a non-binary performer come in and do their own thing.

[19:52] Andrew DeWolf: I wasn't present for this production, I will say, but I did know this person. They're a wonderful person, I will say. They probably don't listen to this podcast, so shout out to you, you're a wonderful human. But yeah, when I was a... I stage managed Rocky Horror in my junior year, a shadow cast version of it, and then my senior year we had a non-binary person play Frank N. Furter, which I've seen pictures of it, and it was a lot more interesting in like a gendered representation of that character, because it's like Frank Furter is basically a non-binary person, just doesn't give a fuck about gender. So having a person who identifies that way adds another level to it.

[20:33] Jess McAnally: And I think that's one of the more interesting pieces of Frank N. Furter, but the premise, I think we should say for those of you who don't know, is that the transvestites, as they call themselves in the show, are aliens that come down and just embrace the weird kind of choose your own adventure, choose your own gender adventure lifestyle, and like they come from a planet called Transvestite, and it's very weird.

[20:59] Andrew DeWolf: From the galaxy of transsexuals?

[21:02] Jess McAnally: Yeah, something like that.

[21:03] Andrew DeWolf: Transylvania.

[21:04] Jess McAnally: I don't know. And Transylvania is where they are, transsexual Transylvania. It's very weird. But there is an interesting idea there, but it also kind of... I get why people are a little uncomfortable with it. I understand that entirely. And we should probably talk about Richard O'Brien for a moment, and their own relationship with gender.

[21:25] Andrew DeWolf: So they themselves do identify as kind of like a genderfluid genderqueer. I think it's quoted saying I'm like 70% male and 30% something else. They called themselves the third gender before, whatever that means. However, they have said some things that can be read as fairly transphobic in recent years. I think this was in 2020. Liz, if you wouldn't mind giving a read to what they said.

[21:50] Jess McAnally: You got it. So this started in 2016. So he said about trans people, trans women in specific, and I quote, I don't believe in this. This is Richard O'Brien. You can't be a woman. You can't be the idea of a woman. You're in the middle, and there's nothing wrong with that. I certainly wouldn't have the wedding tackle taken off. This is a huge jump, and I have all the sympathy in the world for anyone who does it. But you aren't a woman. Kind of weird black and white language for someone that really has blurred the lines of gender with this very transgressive at the time musical.

[22:24] Andrew DeWolf: And they themselves identify as genderqueer.

[22:26] Jess McAnally: Yeah. Once J.K. Rowling started doing her thing that she's doing now that I won't speak of, because fuck J.K. Rowling.

[22:33] Andrew DeWolf: Did they go in with J.K. Rowling?

[22:35] Jess McAnally: No. This is 2020, and someone mentioned it. I will say the rhetoric you just quoted, I would say is a lot tamer than what J.K. Rowling says.

[22:45] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[22:46] Jess McAnally: Yeah. But this is four years on when J.K. Rowling's doing stuff, and then someone's just like... And Richard O'Brien is basically double down on it. You can't ever be a natural woman in 2020. And in that quote, don't they be like, you gotta be careful talking about this? Look what happened to J.K. Rowling.

[23:03] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, we've seen what happened with J.K. Rowling. That's why I referenced J.K. Rowling in this piece. Can I? Okay, devil's advocate-ish. I'm not an expert, so take this with a grain of salt, and if you're more knowledgeable, ignore me. But back in the 70s, 80s, and that time period, transmedicalism was a big thing, right? This is a whole thing. They believe that the only way to really transition is you have to get the surgery, and the blah, blah, blah. And this feels almost like an extension of that in a way, which for the 70s would have actually been really progressive, but obviously for nowadays is the opposite.

[23:42] Jess McAnally: I don't know.

[23:45] Andrew DeWolf: Me reading the quote, that quote, a conservative wouldn't say that. That's all I'm saying. A conservative would just say, you can't be a woman, and also you can't be a third thing, because you're a man, the end.

[23:59] Jess McAnally: That's what, I don't know. On one hand, Richard O'Brien is an 81-year-old person, I believe. They're pretty up there. It's not properly hateful rhetoric, but it is definitely disappointing for a lot of people that really looked up to them and saw them as someone, they're with us, where they're telling you what you can and can't be, which is very disheartening.

[24:30] Andrew DeWolf: It sort of feels like, you know, you just need to go with the younger people at this point, though. I think that the better thing for them to have done would have been to just be like, ignore me and listen to the younger people who know what they're talking about.

[24:44] Jess McAnally: Yeah, I feel like they just think they're still the authority on what all queer people should think. It's kind of like when people ask John Waters questions about queer movements, and he's like, I don't know, listen to the kids, shit.

[25:03] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, and that's the response that you should have. But I'm just going to say, I think comparing the rhetoric you read to J.K. Rowling is not accurate. I think J.K. Rowling says some much, much more hateful things.

[25:18] Jess McAnally: J.K. Rowling goes way deeper on a lot of aspects of transmedicalism and things like that. I'm not a trans person, so listen to trans people about this, obviously.

[25:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that's kind of our belief. I would love to see a lot of trans reading. I'm sure there have been so many trans readings on the Rocky Horror Picture Show that would be fascinating. I'm sure Emily St. James have done tons of readings on Rocky Horror. But I think as far as the whole queer movement in the mid-20th century, this is a touchstone moment and very important to the culture and what defines a lot of the normalization. When someone like Tim Curry has become an icon right up there with everything else, that is pretty impressive for the 70s. I think we're just in a time where things are really heated. It's like we're swimming in boiling water.

[26:39] Andrew DeWolf: Constantly anti-drag laws.

[27:09] Jess McAnally: Since we first talked about this, like, when we were little, little kids, your opinion has always been, you know, everything kind of goes downhill after the Time Warp. It's, uh, you know, while I do like this show, and I'm re-evaluating a little bit because you mentioned Hot Patootie, and I'm like, yeah, you know what, that one's good too. So I feel like it kind of builds up to Time Warp and you're like, oh, hell yeah, this song slaps. And then it sort of, like, drops a little bit and then Hot Patootie is like, nice, that's good. And then I feel like it drops off a cliff and I'm just like, when's the next, like, good song? And it just doesn't happen.

[27:46] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, I disagree. I fundamentally disagree a little bit. So, I think that we're, for the first third of the film, we're on, like, that steady roller coaster, we're on the Magnum XL, we're going up, we're going up. The Time Warp is down that first hill and it's so fucking good. And you're never as good as that first hill. Nothing compares to that first hill on a roller coaster. Then you go up the second hill, which is Sweet Transvestite, which is this, like, incredible, often parodied number, truly wonderful. And then you kind of go through the twists and turns and all that. You got Hot Patootie, which is just, like, one more hill and you still- And you're on the break run.

[28:24] Jess McAnally: No, no, no, no. Then your roller coaster gets a little slower, it goes through, like, the loops, it's like the beast, it goes for a while. And then you get to that second click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, and then it goes down again when you get to the floor show. Because after the floor show, I'm in for the rest of the ride and I love the show again.

[28:45] Andrew DeWolf: Really? The ending? I just don't get it. I really don't understand what the fuck is supposed to be happening at the end. I've watched it several times and I still don't get it.

[28:55] Jess McAnally: As a person that's watched Rocky Horror 30,000 times in a six-month period, let me tell you. So, Frank is just- Frank is just evil now, as we've established from the freezing people on the floor thing, which is a thing he can-

[29:08] Andrew DeWolf: I like that the sexual assaults didn't decide that.

[29:11] Jess McAnally: Yeah, the sexual assaults are also present, but, you know, it's fine. He's been pretty clearly the bad guy from when we first met him, but yeah.

[29:18] Andrew DeWolf: Well, you know, he's a bad guy. How about from the moment he kills Eddie with a pickaxe?

[29:21] Jess McAnally: Yeah, I mean, that's a pretty clear sign. Anyway, Frank is mad now because Janet fucked Rocky and only Frank can fuck Rocky, okay?

[29:30] Andrew DeWolf: But Frank can fuck everyone.

[29:32] Jess McAnally: Yeah, even though Frank fucks everybody, but Rocky's monogamous, okay? This is the argument. So he's mad, so he's going to hypnotize them into singing in corsets. That's the entire line.

[29:43] Andrew DeWolf: Um, in the stage version we watched, didn't it like imply that it increased their libido so much that they had to sing in corsets?

[29:50] Jess McAnally: Yes. No, it's implied in the movie and the Shadowcast too that they're horniers, so it's like, we must be sexy.

[29:57] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but this is where it gets a little bit like, what the fuck's happening? Because then the other two people come in and are like, we're going back to our home planet, and then he's like, I'm coming too, but then they're like, no, you're not. And then it just kind of ends?

[30:11] Jess McAnally: No, then the house takes off into space. They roll around the planet's face like some creatures called the human race, lost in time, lost in space, and meaning! We lost meaning! We lost all meaning!

[30:22] Andrew DeWolf: Is that what it means?

[30:23] Jess McAnally: Yes.

[30:24] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, I'm going to agree with Andrew here. I think the floor show's kind of weird, and it's kind of where it slips for me.

[30:30] Jess McAnally: I love the floor show. The floor show's so stupid. Like, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I love it. I think the entire ending, um, and I feel like maybe what they were going for is the ending is the double feature aspect. Like, we watched Frankenstein, and now we're watching some alien movie?

[30:47] Andrew DeWolf: I think that's, the double feature starts the moment, um, Eddie dies.

[30:52] Jess McAnally: That's the second, the second movie is after Eddie dies?

[30:55] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, because then we got a new Eddie, which is Dr. Scott, who is usually played by the same actor that plays Eddie.

[31:02] Jess McAnally: That's the one thing they fucked up in the movie is that we didn't get Meatloaf. Meatloaf fundamentally agrees with that. He hates the fact that he didn't get to play Dr. Scott because he thinks the best, the best joke, the best laugh in the entire film is when Dr. Scott reveals the, the, the fishnets on his legs, and I don't disagree. That reveal is so fucking funny.

[31:21] Andrew DeWolf: It's so good. Um, but I don't like, uh, I've seen Meatloaf perform Dr. Scott. He does not do a good job. Dr. Scott's a hard thing to perform. Like, it's like-

[31:31] Jess McAnally: He does a good Eddie, though.

[31:33] Andrew DeWolf: Like, he's a wonderful Eddie.

[31:35] Jess McAnally: Um.

[31:35] Andrew DeWolf: He's a great, he's one of the best Eddies, but like, he's not a good Dr. Scott.

[31:40] Andrew DeWolf: But he must have been drawn into something.

[31:46] Jess McAnally: Making him want me in a note which reads.

[31:50] Andrew DeWolf: What's it say? What's it say?

[31:51] Jess McAnally: Going out of my head.

[31:55] Andrew DeWolf: Hurry, or I may be dead.

[31:58] Jess McAnally: They mustn't carry out their evil deeds.

[32:01] Andrew DeWolf: No, um, and Dr. Scott is a Nazi?

[32:04] Jess McAnally: Yes, he is a Nazi, yes.

[32:06] Andrew DeWolf: Like, that's not even, like, subtext, that's just text.

[32:09] Jess McAnally: Yeah.

[32:09] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that's why everyone says, uh, what, Sieg Heil every time he shows-

[32:13] Jess McAnally: Sieg Heil, yeah.

[32:14] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that's in the, the pets will yell Nazi, like, big Nazi screams at the screen. Like, there, his, the one implication is when he's like, should I, is it Dr. Scott or Dr. Von Scott? What are you implying? No, stop it!

[32:28] Jess McAnally: Like, that moment.

[32:29] Andrew DeWolf: So, why were they going to meet Dr. Scott?

[32:32] Jess McAnally: They introduced him. He, they said, and damn it, Janet. Let's go see the man who began it, who meet, where we met in his science exam. He made me give you the eyes and then panic. Like, that was what the plan was.

[32:47] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, why though? And why was he there?

[32:50] Jess McAnally: Because he was looking for Eddie.

[32:54] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, when I get engaged, I'm going to go to the Tinder corporate building to thank them for being engaged. Like, that's what I will do.

[33:01] Jess McAnally: Where it all began.

[33:03] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, you know, not to be in that alternate universe guy, but I want to see the alternate universe where they just show up at Dr. Scott's house. And it's very much a Nazi memorabilia in the back of his, uh, on his wall.

[33:18] Jess McAnally: It becomes, I think you should leave, Sketch. Like, the one where they're like, wait, oh, what is that back there? You got there, Mr. Scott. Oh, that's nothing, nothing.

[33:28] Andrew DeWolf: Is that a red flag you got there? Like, in the corner?

[33:31] Jess McAnally: Just like behind your-

[33:32] Andrew DeWolf: No, no, no. Are you wearing an armband, Dr. Scott?

[33:37] Jess McAnally: I'm the collector.

[33:40] Andrew DeWolf: And then, like, the hot dog guy shows up.

[33:42] Jess McAnally: No, Brad just goes in, oh, you love arachnids too? I see you've got this red flag with a spider on it. I've studied spiders myself.

[33:51] Andrew DeWolf: Dr. Scott starts praising them for all the white babies they're going to have.

[33:57] Jess McAnally: I hope they're blonde.

[34:01] Andrew DeWolf: I need you on camera saying you're going to kill the president, so you don't tell him how I housed Brad's burger.

[34:07] Jess McAnally: All right, we need to go. We need to go. We gotta get somewhere else here.

[34:10] Andrew DeWolf: Also, I do want to point out, Glee censored with sensational Transylvania.

[34:16] Jess McAnally: Yeah.

[34:16] Andrew DeWolf: But you know what? We have our own opinions. How do we compare our opinions to those of the folks on Letterboxd.com?

[34:22] Jess McAnally: It's time for Previews, one star, five star!

[34:25] Andrew DeWolf: It's time for Previews, Previews, Previews!

[34:29] Jess McAnally: It's time for Previews!

[34:31] Andrew DeWolf: All right, Liz, Andrew, head to head, feet around. Are we ready?

[34:34] Jess McAnally: Oh, we are so bad.

[34:35] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, my body's so ready.

[34:37] Jess McAnally: Andrew, are you ready?

[34:38] Andrew DeWolf: All right. No way this is real! All caps. One star, five stars, five stars.

[34:42] Jess McAnally: All right, that is correct.

[34:43] Andrew DeWolf: Liz!

[34:44] Liz: Yes?

[34:44] Andrew DeWolf: I can't believe they made the horror film about the Dairy Queen lip.

[34:47] Liz: Five!

[34:48] Andrew DeWolf: That is correct!

[34:49] Liz: Way too much horny!

[34:51] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, one, one.

[34:53] Liz: That is correct!

[34:54] Andrew DeWolf: Liz!

[34:55] Liz: Yes?

[34:55] Andrew DeWolf: My favorite thing about this movie is that my grandpas are the ones that turn me on to it.

[34:59] Liz: What the fuck is wrong with your grandpas? Your grandpas turn you on. It's a terrible thing to write on the public internet. Don't do that!

[35:08] Andrew DeWolf: Five!

[35:09] Liz: That is correct!

[35:10] Andrew DeWolf: Andrew!

[35:11] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah?

[35:11] Liz: Cunt!

[35:12] Andrew DeWolf: One.

[35:14] Liz: That is a five, you are wrong!

[35:16] Andrew DeWolf: Liz!

[35:16] Liz: Yes?

[35:17] Andrew DeWolf: A minstrel show of homosexuality!

[35:21] Liz: Five!

[35:22] Andrew DeWolf: That is a one!

[35:23] Liz: Dang it! What if Gabriel wrote that?

[35:25] Andrew DeWolf: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! LOL! Long story.

[35:29] Liz: What?

[35:29] Andrew DeWolf: Who doesn't know your grandpa?

[35:31] Liz: Five.

[35:32] Andrew DeWolf: That is a one!

[35:34] Liz: Yes?

[35:35] Andrew DeWolf: Doodoo fart.

[35:36] Liz: That's terrible, that's a terrible review.

[35:38] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, one.

[35:39] Liz: That is correct!

[35:40] Andrew DeWolf: Andrew!

[35:41] Andrew DeWolf: Columbia and Magenta are hot and gay. I fucking hate Janet! I think she's a slut.

[35:46] Liz: That's still a five, that's still a five.

[35:48] Andrew DeWolf: That is correct! And Liz!

[35:50] Liz: Yes?

[35:50] Andrew DeWolf: AVG Friendsgiving activities.

[35:55] Liz: What the hell are you doing in your Friendsgivings? You're fucking everyone in the house! This is very similar to the, uh, pasta salad one from the, uh...

[36:02] Andrew DeWolf: Last episode.

[36:03] Liz: The Hunchback episode. Um... five.

[36:07] Andrew DeWolf: That is correct! And Liz, you won previews today! Congratulations!

[36:09] Liz: What did I get?

[36:12] Andrew DeWolf: Absolutely nothing.

[36:13] Liz: But let's go into a minstrel show.

[36:15] Andrew DeWolf: Nothing?!

[36:16] Liz: This is absurd!

[36:17] Andrew DeWolf: You get nothing!

[36:20] Liz: I'm gonna go to Dr. Scott's and get something.

[36:23] Andrew DeWolf: This is ridiculous.

[36:25] Liz: I'm gonna steal his big red flag with spiders.

[36:28] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm gonna play by Tim Robinson. We're all trying to work out what's going on here.

[36:46] Jess McAnally: Hey guys, sorry to interrupt you and mail the show, but we've got a show at you. Today's show is brought to you by the extremely kind donations by our donors over at Patreon. Patreon's this wonderful place where you can get extended versions of episodes, our video episodes, our commentaries on different kinds of things, including the Barbie Princess and the Pauper, our Goofy movie. Liz and I did a whole episode on Sunday in the Park with George, and the entirety of Tangled, kind of, and Schmigadoon. But yeah, there's a lot of stuff up there. Andrew, who's supporting us right now?

[37:15] Andrew DeWolf: Man, our current patrons are... Melissa Goldman, Danielle Reddix, Justice Stampede, Ewan Cassidy, Monica Theroux, Brent Black, Daniel Stacey Coombe, Joseph Evans Green, Mary Lou Choquette, John Vanals, Russ Walker, Musical Hell, Emily Gracie, Kyle Sommers, Janay C, Scootin' the Tuck, Norah Dreamcoat, Liz Lim, Nothing is Certain Except Beth in Texas, Thesbian, Robert Benjamin, Jessica T, Mitchell Young, Chai Teacup, Chris Marcotte, Kiju Marie Anastasio, Trevi Joseph, Leela, Arjay Nariga, Julia McLannan, Bjorn Hermans, Toriana Frazier, Sammy the Adequate of Mount Jacobson, Leanna Morton, Kaylee Blazier, Cinemageddon Reviews, Villainous Miss, Sophina Ali, The Omega Geek, Paige Pearson, Maddie Wargel, Eliza Erdmann, Anna Loskatova, Sarah Den Blaker, Evan Ball, Zachary Torres, Avalee Long, Rora Marasso, Mara Forloin, Lisa L, Possessed Washing Machine, Nick Roten, Puffyboy, Julia Hardy, Anna Bell, Billy Clifton, Andrew Wright, The Red Caboose Kaboom, and Gold Plated Kiki Mora.

These fuckers help us keep the lights on here at Musicals with Cheese and make our life a little better. I love, I just saw a Twitter person say that they get an emotional attachment to our patrons and they can tell when someone's dropped off and the list sounds different. So know that they love you out there, our wonderful patrons. But how about we get back to the show?

[38:55] Jess McAnally: ♪ Musical number: "Science Fiction/Double Feature" — performed by Jess McAnally ♪

[39:13] Jesse McAnally: Featured, see androids fighting, friends in it, and Francis stars in Forbidden Planet. So Science Fiction Double Feature is truly one of the best opening numbers ever and adds nothing really to the plot, just kind of gives a vibe.

[39:49] Andrew DeWolf: It's a weird kind of, okay, in every version they do it differently on stage. In the original stage version it was just like a candy girl handing out candy and preparing you for the picture show that you're about to watch. But in Shadowcast it's usually like a girl stripping while lip-syncing to it. So I find this song a fascinating part of the film we get. It's such a calm, weird thing that sets you up for things that never happen in the movie, like androids fighting Brad and Janet.

[40:22] Jesse McAnally: I like this one. I think it's catchy. I think a lot of these earlier songs are catchy as well. Yeah, Science Fiction, I like that it comes back at the end too, but it's sad.

[40:33] Andrew DeWolf: Yes. Perfect, what about you Liz?

[40:38] Liz: I love this song. Also I do want to point out the movie's opening, it's just like Patricia Quinn's lips on a black screen. It's like an iconic, genius idea. But it's bending gender already, but it's Richard O'Brien's voice.

[40:52] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, it's amazing. It's iconic. I love this song. It's such a great way to start. This entire thing doesn't make sense. You might as well just start with a song that doesn't include any of the plot points we're about to watch, besides character names. I love this song.

[41:05] Andrew DeWolf: Beautiful, beautiful number. I love it with all my heart. Have I ever told the story of how I met Patricia Quinn at a con once?

[41:11] Jesse McAnally: No.

[41:12] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[41:13] Jesse McAnally: At least I don't think so.

[41:14] Andrew DeWolf: Back in the olden days of comic cons in the early aughts, they would just invite any fucking buddy. It wasn't just the big names. So you'd have people like Ken Page or Patricia Quinn. And I was like, I want to meet Patricia Quinn! And I just wanted her to sign my shit, so I just kind of went with the money. And she was like, no, I want to shake your hand first. And she started actually talking to me. And I was like, oh, okay, you're cool. And she had a very thick accent. She was lovely. And she's very tiny. That is the belt of the story, and it goes to show why I never told it on the podcast, because it's kind of lame.

[41:49] Jesse McAnally: Damn it, Janet! Weirdest I Want song ever.

[42:26] Andrew DeWolf: Is that an I Want song?

[42:27] Jesse McAnally: It has to be.

[42:28] Andrew DeWolf: Is it?

[42:29] Jesse McAnally: It sets up the goals of our two leads.

[42:31] Andrew DeWolf: So they want to see Dr. Scott?

[42:33] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[42:34] Andrew DeWolf: I kind of feel like, and this is me, I don't think that this has a normal structure.

[42:39] Jesse McAnally: No.

[42:40] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know if there is an I Want song here.

[42:42] Jesse McAnally: Damn it, Janet is the closest thing. Because it is the one thing where they learn their want versus need. They think they want each other, but what they need is sexual exploration. And so that is kind of my defense of it. Where they think they just want a house and the burbs and the normal life, but when they discover something that gets in the way, like the slightest thing, like Tim Curry in drag, they immediately throw all their ideals out the window for absolute pleasure.

[43:11] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, I can see that interpretation, but to counter...

[43:14] Jesse McAnally: But you're wrong.

[43:16] Andrew DeWolf: To counter you, I don't even think that these two are the real main characters. I think that they are...

[43:21] Jesse McAnally: A cypher?

[43:22] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, they're like an audience surrogate, and then the actual main character is Frank-N-Furter the moment they get introduced.

[43:31] Jesse McAnally: But Frank-N-Furter doesn't show up for a good 30 minutes.

[43:34] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but like a little behind... That's how you... When you're doing the casting of a shadow cast, you cast Frank-N-Furter and then everyone else underneath them. That's your focus, and then everyone else is an accessory.

[43:46] Jesse McAnally: I think Frank-N-Furter is like Beetlejuice. You don't give Beetlejuice an I Want number. Lydia gets the I Want number, but Beetlejuice is the title person.

[43:55] Andrew DeWolf: Except Frank-N-Furter kind of does have an I Want number.

[43:59] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, he wants to make him a man.

[44:01] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it just comes way later.

[44:06] Jesse McAnally: Frank-N-Furter has an I Am song, not an I Want song. But let's talk about Over at the Frankenstein.

[44:11] Andrew DeWolf: God, all these songs are fucking bangers. I'm so angry that I'm trying to find ones to skip, but I'm like, nah. Over at the Frankenstein place, goofy fucking song, no point being here, one of my favorite songs in the show.

[45:16] Jesse McAnally: I feel like this show is so front loaded, it's crazy. Like, I'm looking at the first half and I'm like, every song is kind of a banger. And then after Hot Patootie, I'm looking at the second half and I'm like, I don't even remember these ones.

[45:26] Andrew DeWolf: You don't like Once in a While, Brad's song?

[45:29] Jesse McAnally: No.

[45:31] Andrew DeWolf: So baby don't cry like there's no tomorrow. How is that even still in the show?

[45:40] Jesse McAnally: It's not in the movie, they cut it out of the movie. It is on the soundtrack though, so you can hear Barry Boswick sing it. I actually think Barry Boswick did a good job with that song, and I think it's very funny that Frank is just smoking in the background while he's singing it. There's some merit to that song. But over at the Frankenstein place is, here's another story. So the first exposure I had to this movie, I was in theater classes, but I was just a very big kind of kid and being very broad with my performances and all that. So my dad's like, show me this to show me subtle acting.

[46:17] Andrew DeWolf: I wouldn't think to use this show as an example of subtle acting. I don't think Richard O'Brien knows what subtle even means.

[46:24] Jesse McAnally: He used this song, and then we just kept it going while it was on because he was trying to be like, yeah, this is like proper acting, you're reacting to the things around you. And then Tim Curry comes out and I'm like, oh, is that Nigel Thornberry? Because I'm five. Why are they dressed as a woman? I know that voice. And then my mom comes in there. Why are you letting him watch this? What are you letting him watch this for?

[46:58] Andrew DeWolf: That's yeah, that is exactly.

[47:00] Jesse McAnally: It's exactly.

[47:01] Andrew DeWolf: Andrew has met my mother.

[47:05] Jesse McAnally: This is a lovely interpretation. She's going to listen to this too. She's going to hear me say that and be mad.

[47:13] Andrew DeWolf: My Miranda says I have two impressions. One is Orson Welles, one is my mother, and I can't do any other impressions.

[47:17] Jesse McAnally: And the sad thing is they're the same impression.

[47:20] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, my Orson Welles is like this. Orson Welles is very deep meaning. My mother has been a heavy smoker for many years.

[47:30] Jesse McAnally: Can you do the Orson Welles commercial?

[47:35] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, the French wine is the best wine. I handed a rich and famous contract for Kermit the Frog and friends.

[47:44] Jesse McAnally: Do you think he was drunk as shit when he filmed that too?

[47:48] Andrew DeWolf: He was never not drunk in his later years. He was on it. You know what? If he could, he would have the rascal scooter going with him during those last years. Please get out of my way. I have important places to be.

[48:01] ♪ Musical number: "Time Warp" ♪

[48:51] Jesse McAnally: I used to think that the Time Warp had no meaning at all, and I still kind of think that, but I realize that they tie it into the ending. It is very important.

[48:58] Andrew DeWolf: Doing the Time Warp again?

[49:00] Jesse McAnally: Not just the first time, doing it again. You just do a jump to the left and a step to the right.

[49:06] Andrew DeWolf: I think I got that backward. A jump to the right, a step to the left.

[49:08] Jesse McAnally: No, you had it right the first time.

[49:09] Andrew DeWolf: No, you had it right the first time.

[49:10] Jesse McAnally: You had it right the first time.

[49:11] Andrew DeWolf: I think what's fun with this song is this is like a mainstream song now. This is like a Halloween song that people just play. I was at Six Flags a few days ago, and they played this at the Six Flags for their spooky village.

[49:23] Jesse McAnally: I heard this at Hershey Park when I was there.

[49:25] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Also, I don't like this song.

[49:27] Jesse McAnally: Of course, Hershey Park also played Nightmare by Avenged Sevenfold, so, you know.

[49:31] Andrew DeWolf: Why don't you like this song, Liz?

[49:34] Liz: Okay. I just want to say that this is a good song. I want to make that perfectly clear. This is purely due to overexposure. So, I stage managed a shadow cast of Rocky Horror Junior College. I watched this movie thousands and thousands of times, it feels like, at this point in my life. We had to rehearse the Time Warp so many times because of all the intricacies that were involved in it on both ends.

[49:58] Jesse McAnally: But it's so simple. It's just a jump to the left, and then a step to the right. There's not much to it.

[50:04] Liz: The hands on your hips, though. I wish it was just that simple, but there's so many fucking call-outs during that. There's so many sex-related call-outs here to remember. I listen to it so much, I reached a point where I hear the Time Warp now, and I clench inside my body, because I'm like, I don't want to hear it.

[50:21] Andrew DeWolf: Maybe you should try doing the dance, and then you'll release it.

[50:23] Liz: Maybe that will help my Time Warp mild hatred. Maybe if you do the jump to the left.

[50:27] Jesse McAnally: Has anyone here actually ever done the Time Warp?

[50:30] Andrew DeWolf: I did not.

[50:31] Jesse McAnally: I did, at every shadow cast. I go every year. So, I've done the Time Warp many a time.

[50:36] Andrew DeWolf: You actually do the jump to the left, and then the step to the right?

[50:38] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[50:39] Andrew DeWolf: Do you have room to do it at your shadow cast?

[50:41] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, because we have like... Yes, I've done them all.

[50:44] Andrew DeWolf: Did you pelvic thrust?

[50:45] Jesse McAnally: I did. Me and Miranda's first date, technically, was at the Rocky Horror Picture Show shadow cast.

[50:52] Andrew DeWolf: That's amazing.

[50:53] Jesse McAnally: I technically went to Homecoming with her sister to get her sister in, and she went with someone to get her person in. And then we just hung out the entire night, and then we went to the Rocky Horror shadow cast, and it was a big deal. And yeah, so I have a deep connection to this, so we try to go every year. So, I love Rocky Horror. It's a deep, deep deal to me.

[51:13] Liz: Jess and I have an opposite relationship with the Time Warp. He has deep, meaningful thoughts about it, and I'm just like, get it out of my ears.

[51:19] Andrew DeWolf: I'm just like, dang, it's kind of catchy.

[51:22] Jesse McAnally: But it follows up with Sweet Transvestite, which is an incredible number.

[51:28] ♪ Musical number: "Sweet Transvestite" ♪

[52:19] Andrew DeWolf: Frank's not there because Frank doesn't want to do the Time Warp again. Only Riffraff and Magenta want to go back to Transylvania and do the Time Warp again. They also just want to make out with each other. We didn't bring up the incest shit going on with Magenta and Riffraff. It's not incest, they're aliens. They don't even reproduce that way. They have the same sexual habits as dogs. They actually reproduce by budding, we just don't know. By docking? Yeah, by docking. So a man and a woman can't possibly make a baby. Never. Then we got Hoppitude, which we have to talk about because of our dearly departed Meepo. I'm sticking by it. I think Meatloaf did a great job singing the song I Know Justice Agrees.

Meatloaf, you did great. The funny thing is in the video you said you should disagree on my opinion on that fact. You were a big defender of Meatloaf. Well, Meatloaf was alive back then. Yeah, that's true. Meatloaf is very much dead now. I think Meatloaf did a great job. The funny thing is that video got a huge boost after Meatloaf died. It really did. Every time something about him in the news, that video gets another big boost. That video's weird. I like this song. It's very stupid. His saxophone doesn't even have a reed in it. Come on. He doesn't need a reed. That's the reason. I think it's a very fun song and it's really, really dumb. My full review of it is that's music. Another fat artist.

Another fat artist. It's easier these days. You know what's funny? We played at a festival on Saturday, right? Yeah. You could see my fingers got fucking destroyed. He's got blisters on his fingers. But somebody came up to us and was talking to our lead singer and they were just like, you know, you guys remind me of Meatloaf. And I was just like, another fat artist. I think it is. Are you still depressed without Kremit? I am depressed without Kremit, for sure. Yeah, I do still have another fat artist in there. And he took that as a compliment. He said I'm an artist. It's true. He said I was an artist. I think it was through that he watched that music video and actually liked it. He was trying to be nice.

Yeah, I think because initially he was insulting the music entirely. And then he deleted that after I had posted the video. So I think he actually watched it and then was like, oh, another fat artist. Found a different thing to insult. Yeah, it's easier now. I just can't believe he was patrolling my page. You know, he was jumping from post to post. He was like on there. You know, hold on, hold on. Someone's at your door, Andrew. Go open it. Oh, who's that? Who's that? Hey, one more thing. I saw that you and Meatloaf got into a bit of a spat. My wife, my wife. I have no idea what happened to Meatloaf and why he died so young. I couldn't possibly. You are a fan of his music, weren't you? It's great.

Oh, absolutely. I loved Meatloaf. And he obviously wrote his own music, right? He didn't. Oh, I would assume so. He was a very talented gentleman. Why do you claim that Jim Steinman was the only one that had any talent in the Meatloaf? Oh, did I say that? I'm afraid like on your Facebook, you were literally there at the scene when he died. Um. Oh, well, you couldn't possibly have any proof of that, do you? I have footage of you right here. He's stabbing Meatloaf to death. One more thing. I saw you do it. I'm afraid I'm going to have to send you to the Columbo dimension. I'm Mrs. Columbo and I'm being silent because I don't have a ride. He burns you with his cigar. He burns you in the arm with a cigar and then you're in the Columbo dimension.

I'll just send you. That's a good meme video. I'll have to send you that one. The Columbo dimension one. That's great. I quote that like all the fucking time. So many Columbo. You're a gamer, aren't you? Like. Yeah, it's the same guy. It's the same guy that did that one. Oh my gosh. We gotta invite that guy on the podcast just to sit around and do Columbo bits with us. I would love to get Giovanni on here. He does a he's really into he does all the meme videos, but he's also really into like boomer shooters like Doom and stuff like that. And he does a lot of content on that. He's a voice actor for indie games. Oh, and he does. He does the Columbo voice really well. I'd love to get him on the podcast.

We should commission him to do a Columbo video on musical theater murders. Uh, the Jerry. No, we need him to do the Jerry verse. I will say Columbo is a stage show in some I found a Columbo stage show from 2012. I don't know if I can get footage of it because it's a local theater. But like it exists. Does that mean we can cover all seven seasons of Columbo? That's the new version of this podcast. It's musicals with Columbo. Columbo with cheese. Columbo with cheese. It's Columbo with cheese. Columbo with cheese. It might be. Double feature. Frank has built and lost his creature. Dark. What is our overall thoughts on the Rocky Horror Picture Show or the Rocky Horror Show and our cheese ratings?

Um, Andrew, why don't you go first? Oh, man, the Rocky Rocky Horror Show. It's it's a lot of fun. You know, I do think I mean, I had the little complaints and whatever about the stage show that I watched. But honestly, it's still fine. Like, I just think the movie is better. I think I personally would rather watch the movie. But really, it's fun either way. So you really can't go wrong. I'm going to give it a cheese stuffed meatloaf. Makes sense. Why the fuck wouldn't you give it that? That's fair enough. Um, Liz, how about you? I love Rocky Horror. I haven't watched it since college. And this is a nice like, oh, like, this is a nice little like memory of like all hang out my friends, like basically all my friends hanging out their underwear while I was running around doing theater stuff.

Like it brought a lot of good memories. And I really do like the show. The movie is basically a perfect movie in a way. There's a lot of complicated issues, obviously. But I think it's just a fun movie if you just like don't want to think for 90 minutes. I never want to think. Yeah. And it's around the same here. Just check it out. Watch some friends, get some drinks. Um, look up a you look up a shadow cast script if you want. It's very easy to find on Google if you want to do some call outs with your buddies if you're drunk enough. Um, have in your shadow cast experience, was there ever a moment where the audience turned against the call outs? No. There was once when me and Miranda went to a shadow cast where it's like, oh god, oh god, where it was.

Oh god. It was Frank says, oh, don't mind him. It was a mercy killing. And the call guy said, that's what Zimmerman said. And the entire audience was just like, oh god. Oh, what? No, that was not good. Like that was like the worst fucking I think about that. I've never heard an audience turn against like one person so much. To be fair, that is what Zimmerman said. Is it really what he said? I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I mean, Zimmerman is the bad guy. Zimmerman is a piece of shit. But I just remember like the goodwill from like, oh, we're having a good time. Holy shit. I was like, horrendous. I will say I went to college in upstate New York, and the majority of the population was gay stoners. So everyone was pretty chill with the whole thing.

Like, we're good. We're probably really high right now because we're in the top five weed schools in the country. Fun fact. Where'd you go, like Oneida or something? Yeah, I got extra credit for being in class on 420 because my professor was just impressed that I showed up. It's like, oh, you're here. Here's some extra points. Here's some weed. They would have done that if they could, I swear. I love Rocky Horror. I have a lot of good memories of it. Me and my best friend talk about it all the time. And I deeply do enjoy this show. If you haven't seen it, please check it out. Watch it with some friends. I'm going to give this lovely movie slash stage show the Cheese Tray Gay, which is a man in Wisconsin who makes cheese trays.

Is he gay? He's very gay. His feet are very gay. And he looks delightful. That is fair. I love the Rocky Horror Picture Show so much like it's my own son. Truly, it is one of the more inspiring pieces of media of my formative years. It is deeply nostalgic for me, deeply connected to me and my relationship in real life. I cannot be objective about this show. So it's going to be biased. But I did try to go in objectively and contextualize it. So my cheese rating is going to be related to one insidious rat called Charles Entertainment Cheese. It's the Chucky Horror Picture Show, which is a t-shirt that has Chucky Cheese in the role of Frankenfurter. Um, and it looks like this. And Liz is looking at it right now.

She's averting her eyes. She can't stare at it too long. It really is difficult to look at. It's difficult to look at. Like, this drawing is- Do you want it closer? Hold on. I feel like actually further away would have been better. I want to say, the person who drew this, shout out to you. You did a great job. I just, it's very, it's just- Now, can we replace Chucky with Billy Bob? Can we replace Chucky with Columbo? I'm just a sweet transvestite, and I'm from Transsexual Transylvania. Can someone draw that, please? Like, Columbo as Frankenfurter? Like, I'm giving you an assignment, fanart people. Just one more thing. I see you shiver with anticipation. And then put Andrew and Jess in the back somehow.

Like, I admire you. We're Brand Janet. Come on. Yeah. I was having trouble making this man, but you know, my wife, she knows a lot about this kind of thing, and she helped me out, so. This is Columbo. Ugh, it's not easy having a good time. Even smiling makes my face hurt. We're so- We are not healthy men right now, Andrew. I feel like I need to watch Columbo clearly, because I keep delaying it. Eventually, we'll just reenact full episodes for you. That's true. All right, everyone. Thank you for listening. Please follow us on iTunes and Spotify and Musicals with Cheese. We're on Twitter at Cheesy Musicals, Patreon Musicals with Cheese, Instagram Musicals with Cheese, YouTube page Musicals with Cheese, Patreon-only podcast, Patreon with Cheese.

Email us at musicaltheatrelivesatgmail.com. Our Keeper of the Cheese is Juliet Antonio. You fucking rock, Juliet. This show is edited by Andrew DeWolf, and he's doing a fantabulous job. Our theme songs were created by Robin Nash of IOU Music UK. Thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network for having us on the platform, for not kicking us off, for all the Columbo tangents. Um, all right. Do we have anything else we have left to say about the Rocky Horror Picture Show? Happy Halloween! Happy Halloween! Is this our Halloween episode? This is our Halloween episode. Oh, fuck. Stay safe and get some candy. Get some fucking candy. I agree. Um, all right. We'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese!