This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jesse McAnally: Alright, we've got a caller here for the first ever live seance.

[0:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I was wondering if you could taunt- contact my dead cheese and call her a bitch?

[0:10] Jesse McAnally: Um, yeah, if we have any serious callers, uh, that would be... that would be great.

[0:25] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally.

[0:27] Andrew DeWolf: And I am Andrew DeWolf.

[0:28] Liz Esten: And I'm Liz Aston.

[0:29] Jesse McAnally: And welcome to the Cheese Wheel, a hyper-fixation podcast where our topics are gambled on a big wheel.

[0:35] Jesse McAnally: How are we doing today, guys?

[0:39] Liz Esten: Well, the weather is fantastic and, frankly, I'm just- I'm feeling excellent and I'm ready for a spooky Halloween.

[0:46] Andrew DeWolf: Well, uh, I can't do this.

[0:50] Andrew DeWolf: This is too close to home for me.

[0:52] Andrew DeWolf: Everything about- like, when I put this on the wheel, it was not this close to home for me.

[0:57] Andrew DeWolf: And now it's just very much my life.

[0:59] Jesse McAnally: Come on.

[1:02] Jesse McAnally: Come on.

[1:02] Jesse McAnally: Just give us- give us, like, two news anchor lines.

[1:04] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, give us some news anchor lines.

[1:06] Liz Esten: Go.

[1:07] Andrew DeWolf: Um, well, the thing is, you need the conversation, like, oh, that's so spooky.

[1:10] Liz Esten: And you know what else is spooky?

[1:13] Andrew DeWolf: Do you want to step in as the lady anchor that's in all these 80s movies?

[1:17] Liz Esten: The lady anchor.

[1:19] Jesse McAnally: I will say the best character is the cowboy weatherman.

[1:22] Jesse McAnally: We're covering two shows today, both about live TV.

[1:26] Andrew DeWolf: Isn't that interesting?

[1:27] Liz Esten: That is fascinating, Tom.

[1:29] Jesse McAnally: But you know what else isn't fascinating?

[1:31] Jesse McAnally: Tooth decay.

[1:34] Andrew DeWolf: Those transitions are, like, actually written by someone.

[1:37] Andrew DeWolf: Like, they are chosen.

[1:40] Andrew DeWolf: They're not just come- like, the thing that gets so right about newscasters is they don't really talk to each other outside of when they're at that table.

[1:48] Andrew DeWolf: So the conversation they do have is like, well, I think I'm going to read to my kids.

[1:53] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I'm going to play with my cats.

[1:56] Jesse McAnally: Like, just base level stuff.

[1:58] Jesse McAnally: Well, Jess, what are we talking about right now?

[2:01] Jesse McAnally: This week, at a change of pace, we are talking about two films that have very similar auras, as the kids say.

[2:09] Jesse McAnally: The first one we're talking about is the WNUF Halloween special.

[2:17] Jesse McAnally: Don't check your dial, folks. You didn't tune into Transylvania's public access station.

[2:22] Jesse McAnally: No, sir. Tonight is Halloween.

[2:26] Jesse McAnally: Halloween is Satan's night.

[2:28] Jesse McAnally: The night of the devil.

[2:31] Jesse McAnally: Reporter Frank Stewart has a special Halloween treat in store for viewers tonight.

[2:36] Jesse McAnally: He'll be leading a group of paranormal experts through the infamous Weber House.

[2:40] Jesse McAnally: Do you know what happened here in the Weber House?

[2:42] Jesse McAnally: When people got killed, their son went haywire.

[2:45] Jesse McAnally: Frank Stewart and his team of experts will conduct the first ever live on TV seance.

[2:50] Andrew DeWolf: Evil works in mysterious ways, Frank.

[2:53] Andrew DeWolf: It's unpredictable.

[2:54] Jesse McAnally: The WNUF Halloween special is a film written by many people and directed by many people, based on a bunch of stock footage that they found.

[3:02] Jesse McAnally: The main person involved in this, and basically the point of view, was from Chris LaMartina, who is the brainchild.

[3:10] Jesse McAnally: If there is an auteur connected to this, it is Chris.

[3:13] Jesse McAnally: But there's a lot of individuals involved.

[3:15] Jesse McAnally: I've listened to the audio commentary. There's so many humans talking at once.

[3:18] Jesse McAnally: It is chaos.

[3:20] Jesse McAnally: Um, the WNUF Halloween special was critically praised.

[3:25] Jesse McAnally: HorrorNews.net gave the WNUF Halloween special a favorable review, and many other people.

[3:30] Jesse McAnally: It's become a cult classic.

[3:31] Jesse McAnally: Um, but the way that they got this out originally was they put, they put it on VHS and just hid it in libraries.

[3:38] Jesse McAnally: Like, just to see if it would catch on.

[3:40] Jesse McAnally: And then they sold it on their website as a VHS.

[3:43] Jesse McAnally: Like, having a digital copy honestly feels like a bit of a betrayal to the initial store.

[3:47] Jesse McAnally: Uh, to the source.

[3:49] Jesse McAnally: But the plot of the WNUF Halloween special is a local TV personality leads a team of supernatural investigators, including an exorcist, into the darkest corners of a supposedly haunted house.

[4:00] Jesse McAnally: Um, alright. I love this fucking movie so much.

[4:05] Jesse McAnally: Um, I, I, it, it shames me to even try to call it a movie.

[4:09] Jesse McAnally: It's, it's kinda a movie.

[4:11] Jesse McAnally: It's like barely a movie.

[4:12] Jesse McAnally: Not to say it's bad, but it's not really a movie.

[4:16] Jesse McAnally: It's a movie in the same way like an Everything is Terrible.

[4:19] Jesse McAnally: It's performance art.

[4:21] Jesse McAnally: I would, I would say it's performance art in a sense.

[4:24] Jesse McAnally: It's a good recreation of a time capsule of a very specific era.

[4:30] Jesse McAnally: And the accuracy to that era, uh, and commitment to the bit.

[4:33] Jesse McAnally: It is not, it's not winking knowingly at us at all.

[4:38] Jesse McAnally: And I love it.

[4:39] Jesse McAnally: It's, it's really something.

[4:42] Jesse McAnally: Um, it, it feels like just a, a TV recording of a newscast essentially into a, into a Halloween special that's just basically an extended news segment on a local house or something.

[4:53] Jesse McAnally: Um, so, and it nails it.

[5:03] Jesse McAnally: Like, it makes you feel like you're watching 90s or 80s television in, in like a horrifying way.

[5:12] Jesse McAnally: And with that, like, it comes with everything, including like film, TV movies, and, you know, local, the local ads are the best one where it's like, you know, off Kirk County and the, off the third interstate, you can go to the pumpkins and all this other things.

[5:29] Jesse McAnally: Um, the, it just feels so, like Andrew, a year ago, you and I watched a Star Wars holiday special and they had commercials that felt just in line with all this other shit.

[5:34] Andrew DeWolf: This is how TV was.

[5:41] Jesse McAnally: Also, if you need a reminder of how shitty TV was, you can watch this and remember that there's fucking commercials every five fucking minutes.

[5:51] Andrew DeWolf: But the commercials were done so intentionally and there's a lot of like good jokes in them.

[5:57] Liz Esten: Oh yeah.

[5:58] Andrew DeWolf: They're not real commercials, but it's just like, oh my God, there's another fucking commercial break.

[6:02] Andrew DeWolf: Like that's kind of the thing where it feels very honest to the time for better and for worse, where another film we're going to talk about later in this piece, uh, feels afraid to even, even be accurate in the, the, the small ways.

[6:21] Andrew DeWolf: You know what I mean?

[6:23] Andrew DeWolf: If, if you didn't know, and you just pop this in for the first, like maybe half an hour, you might actually think it's actually just an old recorded news segment.

[6:34] Jesse McAnally: I think the, the, the point where I would have got it is when the police man is describing infected Halloween candy and he said it could have an apple with a razor blade in it or infected with the AIDS virus, like, which, which is a gag, but it's also like so close to being how they actually talked back then.

[6:54] Andrew DeWolf: Or, you know, about the little boy that was murdered by, uh, who dressed up as G.I. Joe for Halloween, but was murdered by a neighbor having PTSD flashbacks.

[7:06] Jesse McAnally: Honestly though, is that even, that's like, you could actually turn on the news and probably see that story.

[7:13] Andrew DeWolf: It's, it's funny stuff like that, but it's like, it could happen.

[7:17] Andrew DeWolf: My favorite running bit throughout it is the, the, the, the, the election commercials.

[7:22] Andrew DeWolf: Maybe it's because we're currently dealing with that.

[7:24] Andrew DeWolf: That's an unsung thing when people are talking about, uh, um, Halloween and what's on television during Halloween, which is the election bullshit that we are all dealing with every day, nonstop forever.

[7:37] Jesse McAnally: They do a great job with the election commercials too, because there's two, there's two commercials, but the first one is on.

[7:43] Jesse McAnally: Okay.

[7:43] Jesse McAnally: So the way the movie is set up is the initial, like first half an hour is like the end of the evening news or maybe the entirety of the evening news.

[7:52] Andrew DeWolf: Evening news is like a half an hour, isn't it?

[7:54] Jesse McAnally: It might be the entirety of the evening news.

[7:56] Jesse McAnally: Um, but the first 30 minutes or so is the evening news and the first political ad comes on during that.

[8:03] Jesse McAnally: And they spend a whole bunch of time like talking about how mean it was that this attack ad came on and they were like, oh, that's so rude of them.

[8:12] Andrew DeWolf: And then the second ad comes on later and it's like the other guy doing an attack ad and just nobody comments on it.

[8:20] Andrew DeWolf: It's just, it just goes.

[8:23] Jesse McAnally: So yeah, it's just the media bias, you know, that's how it works.

[8:26] Jesse McAnally: Um, Liz, I'm very curious how you felt about the editing of this as specifically the choice to fast forward during the boring parts.

[8:31] Liz Esten: Okay.

[8:34] Liz Esten: Um, I like that a lot. Actually.

[8:35] Liz Esten: It felt like there's a person watching it because like, like they fast forward through the weather guy, the fast forward through the repeated that they did the dentist ad twice and they fast forwarded through the second time.

[8:47] Liz Esten: They fast forward through the dentist segment.

[8:49] Liz Esten: They did it twice.

[8:50] Liz Esten: I like that a lot.

[8:53] Andrew DeWolf: My issue is they repeat a bunch of commercials through this just to fill time.

[8:58] Andrew DeWolf: And I know that's real life.

[8:59] Andrew DeWolf: And like, that's just how TV aired.

[9:02] Andrew DeWolf: If there's an in person character watching this copy and we are watching from their perspective, do they just love that commercial so fucking much?

[9:10] Liz Esten: They just don't fast forward.

[9:12] Liz Esten: They got up to pee.

[9:14] Andrew DeWolf: That could be.

[9:14] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that's probably true.

[9:16] Andrew DeWolf: But I'm just saying that's the question that came to my mind.

[9:20] Jesse McAnally: So the thing with this is, I think, and we'll have to get into spoilers, I guess, but there is a person.

[9:25] Jesse McAnally: This is a person's copy.

[9:27] Jesse McAnally: And I think we actually know who's copy that we're watching.

[9:31] Andrew DeWolf: Who is the little boy on the poster who never shows up?

[9:35] Jesse McAnally: No, I think we should get into the plot first and spoiler warning.

[9:39] Andrew DeWolf: So the last 30 minutes.

[9:41] Liz Esten: Yeah, there was no plot for 90% of this movie.

[9:45] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[9:46] Andrew DeWolf: So the main plot point is that this guy, Frank, is a reporter and he is doing a Halloween special for WNUF, which is a, I imagine, fake local news station, local news channel.

[9:59] Jesse McAnally: I think it might be.

[9:59] Jesse McAnally: They might say what state it's in, but I don't remember.

[10:02] Andrew DeWolf: His segment is on a house where a bunch of killings happened.

[10:06] Andrew DeWolf: I think they it was like an axe murder thing, something like that.

[10:10] Jesse McAnally: And I guess no one's bought it since.

[10:13] Jesse McAnally: And he's like going in to investigate if it's real or not.

[10:16] Jesse McAnally: He's hired the Amityville horror people, the Warrens.

[10:20] Andrew DeWolf: Is that what their names are in real life?

[10:22] Jesse McAnally: No, they're the Burgers because they couldn't get the Warrens.

[10:25] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[10:26] Jesse McAnally: So they're coming in.

[10:28] Jesse McAnally: He's got a priest with him and he's got his camera crew and they're going to all go in and they're going to investigate.

[10:34] Jesse McAnally: And so a bunch of stuff starts happening, which is really like weird.

[10:38] Jesse McAnally: Like they find a recording of a ghost and then when they leave the room, the recording equipment explodes somehow and the Burgers cat gets lost.

[10:49] Jesse McAnally: And then later they find the cat and it's been killed.

[10:53] Jesse McAnally: And at a certain point, the investigators leave.

[10:57] Jesse McAnally: Frank goes into the into the basement with the priest to exercise the house.

[11:04] Andrew DeWolf: Is it exercise?

[11:04] Jesse McAnally: It's exercise.

[11:06] Andrew DeWolf: Perform an exorcist is to exercise or size.

[11:10] Jesse McAnally: OK.

[11:12] Jesse McAnally: And we they start hearing noises upstairs, so they try to go upstairs, but the door is locked.

[11:18] Jesse McAnally: We find out the priest is actually just an actor.

[11:20] Jesse McAnally: The door gets unlocked and there's a guy with an axe and he he kills them, presumably.

[11:27] Andrew DeWolf: But this is where it comes in, where I think we know whose copy we're watching because they splice in footage that isn't from the news show.

[11:35] Jesse McAnally: They splice in actual footage from the killers showing all the dead bodies and cutting out Frank's tongue.

[11:44] Andrew DeWolf: And then they edit back to the news.

[11:46] Jesse McAnally: So I think this is the killer's copy of the tape and we're watching it.

[11:52] Andrew DeWolf: I didn't think I love it.

[11:53] Andrew DeWolf: I I didn't think of it like that either, but that makes perfect sense.

[11:56] Jesse McAnally: I just like the fact that they will rewatch it and watch that specific element.

[12:01] Andrew DeWolf: Like, well, they're fucking freaks.

[12:02] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, we've seen we see them throughout the they're introduced early on.

[12:06] Jesse McAnally: Yes, obviously.

[12:07] Jesse McAnally: Strangely, this does have a filmic structure.

[12:10] Jesse McAnally: And they hide the structure very well by like putting a bunch of fucking commercials in it.

[12:18] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, they do a good job.

[12:20] Andrew DeWolf: Like there is a story that's easy, easy to follow once you get what happened.

[12:24] Liz Esten: Yeah.

[12:24] Liz Esten: Also, I will say a quick trigger warning.

[12:26] Liz Esten: They do show the dead cat for like five seconds.

[12:28] Jesse McAnally: So if you don't want to see a dead cat.

[12:37] Andrew DeWolf: I'm trying to be sincere, like, if you don't want to see a dead cat, don't watch that part.

[12:44] Jess McAnally: It's like exploded too, it's crazy. It's really, it's disgusting.

[12:49] Andrew DeWolf: And then they cut to commercial after showing the dead cat.

[12:54] Jess McAnally: Yeah, I gotta say, Phil's Carpet Warehouse, best commercial.

[12:58] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, so Frank though, he carries this thing, like, hard.

[13:04] Jess McAnally: It's like, the movie's like a backpack, and he puts it on, and he's walking the whole stretch with it.

[13:10] Andrew DeWolf: This guy, this character, he doesn't leave his news reporter persona, where he's kind of like an on-the-ground reporter.

[13:20] Jess McAnally: He stays in that persona the entire time, all the way up until, like, basically the very end, where he finally is like, I've had enough. But, like, they find a dead cat, and he's just like, well, on with the show, let's do this, like, seance or whatever.

[13:36] Andrew DeWolf: It's like, what the fuck is happening?

[13:39] Jess McAnally: I gotta say, that is fairly accurate.

[13:44] Andrew DeWolf: My favorite part, my favorite part of this entire thing, that reads so true to introducing this guy as a character, is when he's introducing the weirdos, dressed in costume, just before he goes into the house.

[13:56] Jess McAnally: And you can, he is not remotely hiding the contempt he has for any of these people.

[14:02] Andrew DeWolf: He's like, there's like, what is it, the one girl, and is like, confused with his question?

[14:07] Jess McAnally: Hi, yeah, hi!

[14:09] Andrew DeWolf: Like, what, yeah, do you believe in ghosts?

[14:13] Jess McAnally: Uh, what? Yes, yes, do you believe in ghosts? I've asked literally everyone all night.

[14:18] Andrew DeWolf: I've been asking everyone the same question.

[14:22] Jess McAnally: Um, yeah, but nice ghosts.

[14:24] Andrew DeWolf: Um, like, Casper, um, that's fictional, um, I'm sorry to have told you that.

[14:29] Jess McAnally: I'm sorry to have broke that news to you.

[14:31] Andrew DeWolf: Like, just utter asshole behavior, I love it.

[14:35] Jess McAnally: It makes it worth it when he gets his comeuppance at the end.

[14:38] Andrew DeWolf: He really is a great character, though. He's the fucking goat.

[14:42] Jess McAnally: Like, he'll just keep going.

[14:44] Andrew DeWolf: And it's funny, like, proper funny, like, for an audience funny.

[14:48] Jess McAnally: Like, even, I would watch his newscast.

[14:50] Andrew DeWolf: I get why they give him, like, this news station gives him this shit.

[14:55] Jess McAnally: His deeply contemptuous dickhead behavior.

[14:59] Andrew DeWolf: Um, that being said, Liz, I've got a feeling that, I do see what you're saying, um, with the commercials.

[15:05] Jess McAnally: It does feel like it's padding out for time, because, you know, sometimes that's just kinda what you gotta do to make a film for $1,500.

[15:11] Andrew DeWolf: That's true, but, you can be crew or creed.

[15:19] Jess McAnally: Yeah, um, I love what they have.

[15:23] Andrew DeWolf: Like, honestly, I don't see this as a movie, so much as something you turn on at a party, and it's just on.

[15:30] Jess McAnally: Like, I don't wanna dogpile, I did not like this as much as either of you two.

[15:35] Andrew DeWolf: That's fine.

[15:36] Jess McAnally: I liked it, but I was not as engaged with it through most of it.

[15:40] Andrew DeWolf: The first half, I watched it on the cusp of insane exhaustion, so, you know.

[15:45] Jess McAnally: Uh, I kind of lost my brain a little at the beginning.

[15:48] Andrew DeWolf: And then, the back half, I watched when I was fully rested.

[15:52] Jess McAnally: So maybe I'll rewatch it when I'm not about to pass out, but, you know, the first half didn't really get me, and the back half got me back.

[16:01] Andrew DeWolf: I love the haunted house thing, I love the reporter, I love all of that.

[16:05] Jess McAnally: I just, this isn't a movie, and I shouldn't have watched it as a movie, which is why I didn't like it.

[16:10] Andrew DeWolf: It's performance art.

[16:13] Jess McAnally: So, I'm like a big fan of like, everything is terrible and intimidating.

[16:20] Andrew DeWolf: You love garbage.

[16:21] Jess McAnally: Yeah, and like, this is in that vein, I would say.

[16:24] Andrew DeWolf: This is like the horror form of that.

[16:26] Jess McAnally: I can see it, I can see it.

[16:28] Andrew DeWolf: Horror comedy.

[16:29] Jess McAnally: But it's like, you have to be kind of in the mindset of like, they're trying to recreate something, they're not trying to make a movie.

[16:38] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that's true.

[16:40] Jess McAnally: I didn't dislike it as much as I thought I would, but in terms of how I watched it, I think I watched it wrong initially, and then I switched gears and watched it the correct way.

[16:51] Andrew DeWolf: You know what I mean?

[16:53] Jess McAnally: You can't walk into it as a movie.

[16:56] Andrew DeWolf: If I ever had a Halloween party, I'd put this on in the background.

[16:59] Jess McAnally: Like, hell yeah!

[17:01] Andrew DeWolf: This is the kind of thing where you have to imagine the people that enjoyed this the absolute most were definitely the people that found it at the library and didn't know what it was.

[17:09] Jess McAnally: Or some random VHS convention in Pennsylvania, which they also visited.

[17:15] Andrew DeWolf: I wish that I had found this randomly in the park somewhere, just a VHS tape, and I brought it home and put it in, and had a transcendental experience, frankly.

[17:28] Jess McAnally: I kind of wish I just discovered this on Shudder randomly.

[17:32] Andrew DeWolf: I watched this on Shudder because, you know, it's cool this is on Shudder, by the way.

[17:36] Jess McAnally: I didn't know this was on Shudder.

[17:38] Andrew DeWolf: It's been available since the top of October, yeah.

[17:41] Jess McAnally: But yeah, I watched this on Shudder, and I kind of wish I discovered it randomly on Shudder.

[17:46] Andrew DeWolf: I was just like, oh, this looks interesting.

[17:48] Jess McAnally: I probably would have maybe liked it a little more.

[17:50] Andrew DeWolf: And maybe if I was watching this with another person, not in the middle of the day, that also doesn't help me with the mood thing.

[17:58] Jess McAnally: But I might put this on with my partner down the line in October at night, and it might be a really cool vibe.

[18:04] Andrew DeWolf: It's an oddity.

[18:06] Jess McAnally: Yeah, it's an odd thing.

[18:07] Andrew DeWolf: I think you put it on at a party.

[18:09] Jess McAnally: This is a party.

[18:10] Andrew DeWolf: I like what it is going for.

[18:12] Jess McAnally: I like that a lot.

[18:13] Andrew DeWolf: I just maybe personally, me, didn't engage with as much in the moment.

[18:17] Jess McAnally: But I want to give another try, now that I know what it is.

[18:19] Andrew DeWolf: You know what I mean?

[18:20] Jess McAnally: Did you watch the morning news when you were a kid?

[18:24] Andrew DeWolf: I did not watch the morning news as a child.

[18:27] Jess McAnally: I watched ESPN.

[18:29] Andrew DeWolf: I watched it every day.

[18:30] Jess McAnally: I watched ESPN in the morning, because that's what my brother put on.

[18:34] Andrew DeWolf: And then when he moved out to college, I just put ESPN on still, out of habit.

[18:38] Jess McAnally: Yeah, see, I watched the morning news.

[18:42] Andrew DeWolf: And the opening of this, the first half an hour, that's the morning news.

[18:49] Jess McAnally: That's what it was.

[18:51] Andrew DeWolf: And maybe still is.

[18:53] Jess McAnally: I don't watch it anymore.

[18:54] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, me neither.

[18:55] Jess McAnally: Tell us.

[18:56] Andrew DeWolf: Is this the morning news?

[18:57] Jess McAnally: This is the morning news.

[18:59] Andrew DeWolf: It is very interesting how accurate this is to the morning news.

[19:03] Jess McAnally: I want to say, while I do enjoy this, I have not watched these guys' other stuff.

[19:07] Andrew DeWolf: They did a whole ass sequel that I've never watched.

[19:09] Jess McAnally: I don't have much interest.

[19:11] Andrew DeWolf: I don't want this.

[19:13] Jess McAnally: I don't want more from this.

[19:15] Andrew DeWolf: I don't think a sequel would work.

[19:16] Jess McAnally: This is like a unique thing.

[19:18] Andrew DeWolf: This is a lightning bolt.

[19:19] Jess McAnally: They hit on something that you can't hit twice.

[19:23] Andrew DeWolf: Like, I don't know.

[19:25] Jess McAnally: This isn't something where it's like, oh, you know what I want? Another 90 minutes of fake 90s television.

[19:31] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[19:33] Jess McAnally: Not really.

[19:35] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, one exception that I would watch, if they did a Christmas special and did specifically Christmas stuff, because that is a whole different kind of TV.

[19:41] Jess McAnally: And people act very differently around there.

[19:44] Andrew DeWolf: If they just kind of lent into that for even like a half hour special, like a short thing, that's the only one I'd be okay with.

[19:54] Jess McAnally: But I will say, Liz, while me and Andrew are much more positive on this, and I worry that you're going to feel dogpiled later, so I'm very grateful you got to.

[20:04] Liz Esten: Oh, look, I'm going to be honest with you. Watching the other thing we have to discuss, I have a lot of problems with it.

[20:10] Andrew DeWolf: I have a lot of problems with it, so.

[20:12] Jess McAnally: Okay, cool.

[20:14] Liz Esten: There'll be no dogpiling.

[20:16] Jess McAnally: I frankly find the second thing very flawed.

[20:19] Andrew DeWolf: I think it has its high marks, but it has a lot of problems.

[20:23] Jess McAnally: Well, before we.

[20:25] Liz Esten: I'm kind of in the middle.

[20:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[20:27] Jess McAnally: The funny part about this episode of our show, is that my opinion is that these two are kind of like, even though they're really similar, they're not similar at all.

[20:36] Liz Esten: Yeah, exactly.

[20:37] Andrew DeWolf: Their intentions are so off the wall, away from each other, that comparing them feels impossible.

[20:42] Jess McAnally: Like, yeah.

[20:43] Andrew DeWolf: I remember, this is a true story.

[20:45] Jess McAnally: I texted Jess, I saw Late Night with the Devil.

[20:47] Andrew DeWolf: I'll tell the story of how I saw Late Night with the Devil.

[20:49] Jess McAnally: He looked up what it was, and he's like, this is just the WNUF Halloween special.

[20:54] Andrew DeWolf: And then he watched it.

[20:55] Jess McAnally: I was.

[20:56] Andrew DeWolf: This is just the WNUF Halloween special.

[20:58] Jess McAnally: Now that I've seen the WNUF Halloween special.

[21:00] Andrew DeWolf: No, I fucking wasn't.

[21:04] Jess McAnally: The WNUF Halloween special is pretending to be TV.

[21:09] Andrew DeWolf: And Late Night with the Devil is pretending to pretend to be TV.

[21:13] Jess McAnally: It's a movie that's pretending to be a TV show, that's pretending to be a documentary about a TV show, that's pretending to be a surreal film about a ghost or the devil.

[21:23] Andrew DeWolf: But it's a movie.

[21:24] Jess McAnally: But it's a movie.

[21:25] Andrew DeWolf: A narrative film with actors.

[21:28] Jess McAnally: WNUF is not a movie.

[21:30] Andrew DeWolf: Because I remember Jess told me, you're an idiot that you like this because the WNUF Halloween special.

[21:34] Jess McAnally: I did not say that.

[21:35] Andrew DeWolf: That's what it felt like at the time.

[21:37] Jess McAnally: I did not say that.

[21:38] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, good.

[21:39] Jess McAnally: He said it.

[21:40] Andrew DeWolf: He basically said it without saying it.

[21:41] Jess McAnally: That's what happens.

[21:44] Andrew DeWolf: I don't like that accusation there.

[21:47] Jess McAnally: I have the transcripts.

[21:49] Andrew DeWolf: He said it.

[21:50] Jess McAnally: Yeah, I have texts.

[21:51] Andrew DeWolf: I never would call anyone an idiot for their taste.

[21:55] Jess McAnally: Jess isn't that mean.

[21:56] Andrew DeWolf: He'll just tell me he likes something better in a way that makes me feel like the thing I liked is bad.

[22:03] Liz Esten: Don't worry.

[22:04] Andrew DeWolf: We're all going to dogpile on Jess after this episode.

[22:10] Jess McAnally: Man, I'm being cyberbullied but in real life.

[22:12] Andrew DeWolf: That feels like a good transition into our next subject.

[22:15] Jess McAnally: Previews!

[22:17] Andrew DeWolf: This is a game where Liz pulled real Letterboxd reviews from Letterboxd.com.

[22:21] Jess McAnally: We and Andrew have to go head-to-head guessing whether they're a 1-star or 5-star based on nothing but the review alone.

[22:26] Andrew DeWolf: Jess, are you ready?

[22:28] Jess McAnally: I am always ready.

[22:30] Andrew DeWolf: Jess, I'm actually sorry.

[22:31] Jess McAnally: I didn't mean to be that mean.

[22:32] Andrew DeWolf: I'm so sorry.

[22:33] Jess McAnally: It's okay.

[22:34] Andrew DeWolf: I'm going to get cancelled now.

[22:36] Jess McAnally: Fuck Cynthia Erivo over there.

[22:39] Andrew DeWolf: Have you guys seen that stuff?

[22:40] Liz Esten: Can I do that?

[22:42] Andrew DeWolf: Can I be on my musical theater thing for a minute?

[22:44] Jess McAnally: About Reeve Carney?

[22:45] Andrew DeWolf: No, Cynthia Erivo.

[22:47] Jess McAnally: Oh, about the post she did about the AI poster?

[22:50] Andrew DeWolf: God forbid someone does fan art and you're like, this is the most offensive thing I've ever seen!

[22:56] Jess McAnally: Hiding my eyes!

[22:58] Andrew DeWolf: That is-

[22:59] Liz Esten: Uh-huh.

[23:00] Andrew DeWolf: Cynthia.

[23:01] Jess McAnally: Oh, God.

[23:02] Andrew DeWolf: Touch grass.

[23:03] Jess McAnally: Um, alright.

[23:05] Liz Esten: Game.

[23:06] Andrew DeWolf: Let's do this.

[23:07] Jess McAnally: Alright, Andrew.

[23:08] Andrew DeWolf: You know the rules.

[23:09] Jess McAnally: Are you ready?

[23:10] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[23:11] Jess McAnally: Vibes.

[23:13] Andrew DeWolf: Accurate.

[23:14] Jess McAnally: Five.

[23:15] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[23:16] Jess McAnally: Sorry, babe.

[23:19] Andrew DeWolf: WNUF TV 28 stays on during six.

[23:24] Jess McAnally: Honestly, wouldn't kill the boner.

[23:25] Andrew DeWolf: That's a five.

[23:26] Jess McAnally: That's correct.

[23:27] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah?

[23:28] Jess McAnally: Kinda like watching an episode of Tim and Eric.

[23:31] Andrew DeWolf: That's actually a difficult one because there's two types of people.

[23:35] Jess McAnally: People that love Tim and Eric and people that hate Tim and Eric.

[23:38] Andrew DeWolf: And there's no one in between so that could be either.

[23:40] Jess McAnally: I'm gonna go with five, though.

[23:42] Andrew DeWolf: That's actually a one.

[23:43] Jess McAnally: This is a person that hates Tim and Eric.

[23:45] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[23:46] Jess McAnally: One of my friends is one of those people.

[23:48] Andrew DeWolf: Which one?

[23:49] Jess McAnally: You don't know him.

[23:50] Andrew DeWolf: Aw.

[23:51] Jess McAnally: Damn.

[23:52] Andrew DeWolf: Jess.

[23:53] Jess McAnally: Yeah.

[23:54] Andrew DeWolf: Father, you can't put handcuffs on a ghost.

[23:59] Jess McAnally: That's a five.

[24:00] Andrew DeWolf: That line did get me, I will admit.

[24:02] Jess McAnally: This is back when I was enjoying it.

[24:04] Andrew DeWolf: I was like, damn, that was actually kinda funny.

[24:06] Jess McAnally: There's a lot of little things like that that are very funny, even.

[24:10] Andrew DeWolf: Alright.

[24:11] Jess McAnally: Okay, my biggest fault with Late Night with the Devil, never funny.

[24:13] Andrew DeWolf: Not even once.

[24:14] Jess McAnally: It wasn't supposed to be.

[24:16] Andrew DeWolf: It's a comedy show.

[24:18] Jess McAnally: Okay, we'll get to it.

[24:19] Andrew DeWolf: Last one.

[24:21] Jess McAnally: Mhm.

[24:22] Andrew DeWolf: Very impressive.

[24:23] Jess McAnally: Five?

[24:24] Andrew DeWolf: That's a one.

[24:25] Jess McAnally: Jesus Christ.

[24:26] Andrew DeWolf: Alright, Jess won that.

[24:27] Jess McAnally: Who are these people?

[24:28] Andrew DeWolf: Jess won that round.

[24:29] Jess McAnally: I kicked your ass, Andrew.

[24:30] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, you're right.

[24:32] Jess McAnally: Speaking of kicking some ass, how about we go into a mid-show and talk about our patrons?

[24:46] Andrew DeWolf: Hey, guys!

[24:47] Jess McAnally: Sorry to interrupt you in the middle of the show, but we've got a show to you.

[24:50] Andrew DeWolf: Today's show is brought to you by the extremely kind donations by our donors over at Patreon.

[24:53] Jess McAnally: And at Patreon, you get tons of stuff.

[24:55] Andrew DeWolf: Commentaries.

[24:56] Jess McAnally: We did a commentary on Halloween Town.

[24:58] Andrew DeWolf: You get our episodes fully edited an entire day early.

[25:01] Jess McAnally: If you're listening to it on Friday, you're not doing good enough, because everyone on Patreon's getting it on Thursday and ad-free.

[25:08] Andrew DeWolf: That's true.

[25:09] Jess McAnally: That's true.

[25:11] Andrew DeWolf: Also, you are getting full access to us.

[25:14] Jesse McAnally: Our Discords. If you have questions you want to talk to me about, or Andrew or Liz or anyone, you can just join our Discord.

[25:20] Jesse McAnally: You can get my full, unfiltered opinions on the Wicked trailers as they get released, or whatever else.

[25:26] Jesse McAnally: All the posters that are coming out, all the products.

[25:29] Andrew DeWolf: Ask him about Joker 2. He loves that. Yeah, he loves Joker 2. It's his favorite movie.

[25:34] Jesse McAnally: I didn't realize I was so angry about Joker 2 in that recording until I listened to the episode.

[25:40] Jesse McAnally: And then I'm like, man, what was I on about Joker 2?

[25:44] Jesse McAnally: Um, I have sincerely thought about putting it on the wheel now that it has flopped so hard it is coming out on VOD next week.

[25:53] Andrew DeWolf: Please don't. Please don't do it for all of us. Please don't. No. No. I can't do it.

[25:57] Jesse McAnally: I'm gonna watch it without watching the first one. Like, that's what's gonna happen.

[26:01] Andrew DeWolf: I think that's a funny bit. I think we should do that.

[26:03] Jesse McAnally: That's funny. You should.

[26:05] Andrew DeWolf: I've never seen the first one and I don't plan to.

[26:07] Andrew DeWolf: Apparently this second one is just restating the first one. That is what the word on the street is.

[26:13] Jesse McAnally: No, it's not restating it. It's unstating the statement of the previous movie and saying it was false.

[26:19] Andrew DeWolf: No, I mean, yes, it is also doing that.

[26:21] Andrew DeWolf: But also they are like, here's what happened in the first movie. Here's what happened in the first movie.

[26:27] Jesse McAnally: And it's just that, over and over, until the movie ends.

[26:31] Andrew DeWolf: Silent Night, Deadly Night 2.

[26:33] Jesse McAnally: I was about to say, Silent Night, Deadly Night Part 2.

[26:35] Andrew DeWolf: My favorite movie structure.

[26:37] Jesse McAnally: I love that structure. It's so good. It's a clip show.

[26:39] Andrew DeWolf: There has to be another movie that's done that, right?

[26:41] Jesse McAnally: Definitely.

[26:43] Andrew DeWolf: Joker 2.

[26:45] Jesse McAnally: Without the clips.

[26:47] Andrew DeWolf: I feel like there's one more.

[26:49] Andrew DeWolf: It Part 2. It Part 2 is pretty close, I feel.

[26:51] Jesse McAnally: Oh yeah, that is.

[26:53] Jesse McAnally: Anyway, Jess, who are our patrons?

[26:55] Jesse McAnally: Our current patrons are...

[27:05] Jesse McAnally: ...

[27:11] Jesse McAnally: ...

[27:17] Jesse McAnally: ...

[27:23] Jesse McAnally: ...

[27:29] Jesse McAnally: ...

[27:35] Jesse McAnally: ...

[27:39] Jesse McAnally: They all give us financial support that helps us keep making this show.

[27:41] Jesse McAnally: And if you'd like to join them and help us out a little bit, come join us over at Patreon.

[27:45] Jesse McAnally: But then again, we also know that financially, things are a little tight lately.

[27:50] Jesse McAnally: So if you could just share us with, like, five friends or leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, that would be wonderful.

[27:56] Andrew DeWolf: Andrew, we got a really nice Apple Podcasts review this week, didn't we?

[28:00] Jesse McAnally: Oh, do I remember what this one was?

[28:03] Andrew DeWolf: Um, we got a one-star review that criticized you for saying the Romanovs deserved to die and that Princess Diana deserved her bulimia or something like that.

[28:13] Jesse McAnally: I got texted this too, yeah.

[28:15] Andrew DeWolf: Some bad faith criticism of your opinions.

[28:18] Jesse McAnally: If I can piss off a monarchist, then I'm happy, you know?

[28:24] Jesse McAnally: Fuck your royals. I don't fucking care.

[28:26] Andrew DeWolf: Do you want me to read it? I have it on my phone.

[28:28] Jesse McAnally: Um, no.

[28:30] Andrew DeWolf: They don't deserve that.

[28:32] Jesse McAnally: Usually I'm totally good, like, let's laugh.

[28:34] Jesse McAnally: Nah, this one was like, ugh.

[28:36] Andrew DeWolf: This one was very angry because you know that they have a picture of the queen behind their computer screen and they were looking at it the whole time.

[28:43] Jesse McAnally: They were like, I'm doing this for you.

[28:45] Andrew DeWolf: It's the king. It's the king now.

[28:47] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally.

[29:01] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm Andrew DeWolf.

[29:03] Liz Esten: And I'm Liz Esten.

[29:04] Jesse McAnally: And welcome back to the Cheese Wheel, a hyper fixation podcast where our topics are gambled on a big wheel.

[29:10] Jesse McAnally: This is the first time you're hearing this today.

[29:12] Jesse McAnally: Um, how are you doing today, Andrew and Liz?

[29:15] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, well, I'm doing, uh, I'm doing pretty well.

[29:17] Andrew DeWolf: Have we done this already?

[29:19] Liz Esten: Yeah, has this happened before?

[29:21] Jesse McAnally: No, but you know what? I definitely am. I'm struggling, guys.

[29:25] Jesse McAnally: I gotta be honest. I'm really struggling.

[29:27] Andrew DeWolf: Why is that?

[29:29] Jesse McAnally: I might have sold my wife's life for beating Johnny Carson.

[29:36] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, I mean, was it worth it?

[29:39] Jesse McAnally: You know, I don't even think I beat Johnny Carson.

[29:44] Andrew DeWolf: You didn't. You got second still.

[29:47] Jesse McAnally: Damn. I'm glad my wife's dead, though.

[29:50] Jesse McAnally: So I can sleep with some, uh, ghost expert.

[29:53] Andrew DeWolf: Uh-huh. Um, this week we're covering Late Night with the Devil.

[29:57] Jesse McAnally: Cue the trailer.

[29:59] Jesse McAnally: We are back in five, four...

[30:04] Jesse McAnally: Now, here's Mr. Midnight, Jack Taro!

[30:11] Jack Taro: Oh, good evening, Night Owls, and thank you for allowing me into your living rooms once again.

[30:18] Jack Taro: Well, Night Owls, we've got a heck of a show in store for you tonight, and I'm very excited for you to see it all unfold before your very eyes.

[30:25] Jack Taro: I really hope you love it. Gosh, I hope you love it. Please love it.

[30:32] Jack Taro: I'm trying to host an Ashless-indicated talk show. And I'm trying to help you keep it on the air.

[30:38] Jack Taro: We all know how important it is to keep our sponsors and affiliates happy, but in my humble opinion, there is only one person who really matters in this whole darn crazy business.

[30:49] Jack Taro: And that is you.

[30:51] Jesse McAnally: So Late Night with the Devil is a film written and directed by Colin Karenis and Cameron Karenis.

[30:56] Jesse McAnally: Um, the film premiered at South by Southwest Film Festival on March 10, 2023, and it was released theatrically in the United States on March 22, 2024 by IFC Films in Australia on April 11th.

[31:09] Jesse McAnally: There is a ridiculous fuckton of logos at the beginning of this movie.

[31:14] Andrew DeWolf: There really is. Holy shit, I was thinking that too.

[31:17] Andrew DeWolf: Pro tip, fast forward about a minute and ten seconds.

[31:21] Jesse McAnally: I hate to reference Family Guy, but that Family Guy joke of the amount of studio logos, it has only ever been accurate for this movie.

[31:30] Jesse McAnally: It just shows you how indie this film is, that not only did they need that many producers, but they had to steal art.

[31:35] Jesse McAnally: The plot of Late Night with the Devil is a live broadcast of a late night talk show in 1977 goes horribly wrong, unleashing evil to the nation's living rooms.

[31:46] Andrew DeWolf: Um, alright, Late Night with the Devil.

[31:48] Andrew DeWolf: It's fine.

[31:49] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[31:51] Andrew DeWolf: I think it's good at what it tries to do.

[31:55] Andrew DeWolf: I think I don't like what it tries to do.

[31:59] Jesse McAnally: And I think that may be a genre issue with you.

[32:03] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, there's certain types of horror that I'm just not a fan of.

[32:07] Andrew DeWolf: And the main one is demonic stuff.

[32:12] Andrew DeWolf: I just do not like demon horror.

[32:17] Andrew DeWolf: I don't find it scary. I think it's incredibly played out.

[32:20] Andrew DeWolf: And this does all the tropes.

[32:23] Andrew DeWolf: Every single trope is there.

[32:25] Jesse McAnally: So.

[32:26] Jesse McAnally: But, I do like the premise.

[32:30] Jesse McAnally: I like the, maybe not the premise, the setting.

[32:34] Jesse McAnally: I really like the idea of the late night show and that.

[32:40] Jesse McAnally: I just wish they did more with it.

[32:43] Jesse McAnally: Because at a certain point it kind of stops being really, it doesn't feel like you're watching a late night show anymore.

[32:50] Jesse McAnally: It just feels like you're watching a movie.

[32:53] Jesse McAnally: Which is, it's like the reverse of WNUF, where at all times in WNUF you feel like you're watching a TV special, where here you almost always feel like you're watching a movie.

[33:03] Jesse McAnally: Like a movie movie, not a documentary movie.

[33:05] Andrew DeWolf: I think part of it is that they never cut to commercial.

[33:08] Andrew DeWolf: There's no commercial breaks.

[33:10] Andrew DeWolf: During the commercial breaks they switch to black and white and they show behind the scenes footage.

[33:15] Andrew DeWolf: And I think the other part of it is that it just, it sort of feels unrealistic at a certain point, where things happen that just would not allow a TV show to continue going once they happen, you know?

[33:34] Jesse McAnally: And it's just, it doesn't make sense.

[33:38] Jesse McAnally: Liz, which was scarier, TV talk show, this or, honestly, okay, actual proper question.

[33:44] Jesse McAnally: Better representation of a TV talk show in the 70s, Joker or Late Night with the Devil?

[33:50] Liz Esten: I'm going to go with Late Night with the Devil.

[33:55] Jesse McAnally: I agree.

[33:57] Jesse McAnally: But yeah, do you want to talk about my Late Night with the Devil experience?

[34:01] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, I do.

[34:02] Jesse McAnally: Or do you guys want to keep going?

[34:04] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, go!

[34:05] Jesse McAnally: I'm joking, I'm joking.

[34:07] Jesse McAnally: Yes!

[34:08] Liz Esten: Okay, so I saw this in theaters.

[34:11] Liz Esten: I was one of those weirdos, when it was in theaters for a week, I went to go see it.

[34:15] Liz Esten: I saw it in New Jersey, at a very small theater with my partner.

[34:21] Liz Esten: And it was such a small theater, I was like, way, very close to the screen.

[34:26] Liz Esten: So, I really like this movie because I felt like I was in the audience, because of how I watched it the first time.

[34:34] Liz Esten: I will agree there are some issues with it, and I felt that afterwards, but when, in the moment when you're sitting there in a dark theater, tiny theater with barely any people around, because who the fuck is seeing Late Night with the Devil one week in theaters in the middle of nowhere New Jersey?

[34:50] Liz Esten: It was more of a theatrical experience for me, and I enjoyed the experience I had back in March, which is why I texted Jess about Late Night with the Devil.

[35:00] Liz Esten: So, on the off chance he had the chance to see it in theaters, which is when he called me an idiot for liking this movie.

[35:07] Liz Esten: But, now that I have...

[35:12] Liz Esten: I have the transcripts, he said that.

[35:14] Liz Esten: I sent it to Andrew for proof.

[35:17] Liz Esten: I'm going to post the image of it in this podcast, so just watch out for that.

[35:22] Jesse McAnally: How do you post it in a podcast?

[35:24] Liz Esten: You post pictures on Spotify now. That's the thing.

[35:27] Jesse McAnally: Oh.

[35:31] Liz Esten: But anyway, now I've seen it at my house, on Shudder, also on Shudder, if you're interested in it.

[35:38] Liz Esten: It's perfectly mediocre in so many ways.

[35:43] Andrew DeWolf: Medi-joker?

[35:45] Liz Esten: Medi-joker.

[35:46] Liz Esten: It has problems.

[35:49] Liz Esten: Structural problems.

[35:51] Liz Esten: And it has character problems.

[35:53] Liz Esten: Mostly the evil asshole skeptic who's ruining the vibe.

[35:58] Andrew DeWolf: The thing that sucks is that he would have been my favorite character.

[36:01] Liz Esten: I was watching it and thinking, Andrew must love this guy.

[36:05] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I love the real guy.

[36:07] Liz Esten: Somebody on Twitter said it, but I think I would have caught on to it regardless, because it is directly just him.

[36:12] Liz Esten: It's James Randi.

[36:17] Liz Esten: Our next guest worked as a magician under the name The Amazing Randi, but the world knows him for what he's achieved offstage.

[36:24] Liz Esten: He's spent decades challenging people who claim they have mysterious powers.

[36:30] Liz Esten: No matter how smart or well-educated you are, you can be deceived.

[36:37] Liz Esten: This is The Amazing Randi.

[36:40] Liz Esten: He went on Johnny Carson in the 70s and debunked a person who claimed to be a psychic.

[36:47] Liz Esten: That was a very famous thing.

[36:49] Liz Esten: Of course, this opens up with that exact premise.

[36:52] Liz Esten: The guy is literally James Randi.

[36:55] Liz Esten: He does the magic tricks.

[36:57] Liz Esten: They play it up, though.

[37:00] Liz Esten: He's even more obnoxious and condescending than the real James Randi was.

[37:05] Andrew DeWolf: If that guy approached me in any situation in public, I would have gotten the ick and ran away.

[37:11] Liz Esten: I don't like it because he's in way too much of it.

[37:15] Liz Esten: It's like James Randi's slander.

[37:18] Liz Esten: It's like, damn, you fucking hate him, don't you? Holy shit.

[37:22] Liz Esten: Poor Ian Bliss plays this guy.

[37:24] Liz Esten: This actor is probably getting fucked over in terms of casting, because he played the worst asshole in 2023.

[37:31] Andrew DeWolf: Then, of course, they don't even do it right.

[37:34] Andrew DeWolf: James Randi didn't believe hypnotism was real.

[37:37] Andrew DeWolf: His debunk of the whole thing doesn't make any fucking sense because he hypnotizes everybody.

[37:40] Andrew DeWolf: He didn't even think that was real. It was part of his thing.

[37:45] Andrew DeWolf: He thought that was bullshit. The entire scene was bullshit.

[37:49] Andrew DeWolf: The practical effects were great.

[37:51] Andrew DeWolf: ENTIRE SCENE WAS BULLSHIT!

[38:21] Jess McAnally: It looks bad. It looks like just water effects turned black.

[38:24] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, my poor boyfriend has now been trained when we watch movies to pull me in when someone might be puking, and then he will pull me back out when it's safe. He's trained to do it at this point.

[38:34] Jess McAnally: You're just like the girl from Knives Out.

[38:36] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, I can't watch that movie either! I can't watch it without another person! They need to protect me!

[38:42] Jess McAnally: Um...

[38:44] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, I was gonna say we should talk about the plot.

[38:47] Jess McAnally: Okay.

[38:48] Andrew DeWolf: Because we're kind of just going. So David Dastmalchian plays our lead, Jack Delroy.

[38:55] Jess McAnally: D minus Johnny Carson, A minus David Letterman.

[39:00] Andrew DeWolf: And he's trying to beat Johnny Carson, basically.

[39:03] Jess McAnally: Yeah.

[39:04] Andrew DeWolf: And he decides, oh! He threw up the Trump clip asking where Johnny Carson went. It's like, he's dead Trump.

[39:10] Jess McAnally: So, Jack Delroy is trying a bunch of goofy antics to try to get people to watch. And then sadly, one day, out of nowhere, his wife, despite not being a smoker, dies of cancer.

[39:23] Andrew DeWolf: And he uses her for clout on the internet. Lung cancer, just to be clear.

[39:26] Jess McAnally: Severe lung cancer.

[39:27] Andrew DeWolf: Severe lung cancer. And then she brings up an old story of, oh, Calcutta, and my musical theater brain was pleased for five seconds. And then he's now trying to do even wackier stuff, including a demonic possession special live episode.

[39:46] Jess McAnally: Oh boy, oh boy. And he's got a bunch of fun, goofy characters around, like Christo, and Carmichael Haig, and most importantly, his sidekick, and really, the Andrew to Jack Delroy's chest, Gus McConnell.

[40:02] Andrew DeWolf: I think I liked this movie initially, because it reminded me a lot of the Conan-Andy Richter dynamic. For like a second, I was like, yeah.

[40:12] Jess McAnally: And then his final guest is a little girl, a teenager that's possessed by the devil, and her keeper, her guardian, as played by Queen Elsa from one spot at a time.

[40:29] Andrew DeWolf: No, no, no, Queen Elsa from Frozen is his wife with cancer.

[40:32] Jess McAnally: Oh no, dead wife is the Frozen lady.

[40:36] Andrew DeWolf: Elsa is Cancer Lady. I watched this arc live on ABC.

[40:41] Jess McAnally: No, it's UBC in this world. And then at the end, all hell breaks loose, because demonic possession is real, and it turns out that he—spoilers—he sold his wife's life to get good ratings.

[40:49] Andrew DeWolf: I got a feeling that's what Kanye West did too, but we're just going to find that out later. So, this movie does not work for me. I've tried three times now. First watch, I kind of left feeling empty and hollow, and I really wanted to love it. I called Liz an idiot like nine times, but I really wanted to love this movie.

[41:15] Jess McAnally: Maybe he's the idiot.

[41:17] Andrew DeWolf: Maybe I am. This is highly critically acclaimed for reasons I can't figure out at this point.

[41:21] Jess McAnally: I think it's highly critically acclaimed because of all the reasons why WNUF worked. It's just like, oh, the vibes. The vibes are right.

[41:32] Andrew DeWolf: The vibes are great, but the story. It does get some of the vibes, but it doesn't go as far as WNUF did to get the—90s vibes that it had, whereas this has—

[41:44] Jess McAnally: But it's not really going for what WNUF had. It's going for a cinematic version of what WNUF had. And it's also the 70s, so it's an entirely different ballgame in terms of what the vibe is.

[41:56] Andrew DeWolf: 80s was very corporate commercials, in the case of WNUF. News stories that are basically fluff pieces, but also about dead children. But this is very much like Johnny Carson Lite trying to get ratings, which was a big thing, because Johnny Carson was a huge late-night figure in the 70s. And no one could really beat him in the ratings ever. No one ever beat Johnny Carson in the ratings. I'm pretty positive.

[42:20] Jess McAnally: So that's the context of this. And maybe I'm more interested in late-night talk show hosts than morning news. Maybe that's why I like this initially.

[42:28] Andrew DeWolf: It was evening news.

[42:29] Jess McAnally: Evening news, or whatever the time zone of the news was. I think where this kind of has some missteps is, one, I think that they should have either skipped the entire intro or done it differently. Because I feel like it makes the entire thing far too predictable.

[42:51] Andrew DeWolf: You kind of already know what's happening right away. I also just think it's just too predictable to begin with. They bring in that little girl and it's like, yeah, of course she's actually possessed by a demon. Come on.

[43:07] Jess McAnally: It's so obvious right off. And then the second misstep, I think, is near the end, I think starting with when the skeptic guy decides he's going to hypnotize everyone and then moving all the way through to the ending, they just kind of abandon the premise. It's no longer a documentary about found footage of this old episode. It's literally like we're following him into hell now. How are we doing that? That doesn't make any fucking sense.

[43:34] Andrew DeWolf: There's times it feels like the writers and directors are worried the audience won't get the premise or what makes the main character bad so they feel the need to over-explain it. But you could just do that with visual cues and actions and that's not that hard. This is one of their first things. They have 8,000 production companies on their ass and they're getting it done probably on a very limited budget. But there's a smart way to do indie filmmaking and they just didn't do it perfectly. They did a lot of things right, but they didn't do it perfectly.

[44:12] Jess McAnally: Okay, I'm going to come at this from maybe a less gracious point of view, but basically agreeing. They were very bold and making big statements with the aesthetics and really played it by the book with the story and it felt cowardly and it felt like I was being spoon-fed and I was treated like I was dumb. Like it or not, WNUF, with its laziness in other aspects, the story really did not treat you like you were dumb. They gave you the information as they would and they refused to bend backwards and break the rules of their own internal logic.

[44:51] Andrew DeWolf: In the end, WNUF gives you a twist that treats you fairly and this refused to do anything that it didn't immediately spoon-feed to you in the first five minutes. And that's frustrating. It doesn't have a twist. It's literally called Late Night with the Devil. We already know what's going to happen. Literally exactly that happens.

[45:19] Jess McAnally: It's like, okay, tune for Late Night with the Devil. I would have really liked something where they actually used the skeptic character. What if it was fake? And he brought in these people to pretend to do it but he actually had made a deal with the real devil at some point and when they go to fake it something real happens and everyone is confused. I know this is also a cliché but that's slightly more interesting. Can we just do anything? Any sort of twist?

[46:05] Andrew DeWolf: It's just like, we introduced this person, she was part of a cult and she has the devil in her and she actually does have the devil in her. Not to stray away from the comparison we're doing I think a more apt comparison for Late Night with the Devil is actually Hell House LLC which is just a pure found footage movie about a haunted house that came out in 2018 or something. It's really well done. It's a movie about people that are skeptical for the sake of profit which is what the basic premise of Late Night with the Devil is. But it plays with visuals to show you things might be real without the characters being like, that was spooky! It's very subtle in how it's done and I think they could have borrowed from that idea a little more or even something like The Mirror, which is a really low budget indie British found footage movie about a haunted mirror. It's made for $6 but it's actually pretty well done considering the limitations, the lack of acting skills all around but the scares aren't bad and they don't shove the premise in your face.

[47:00] Jess McAnally: I do... I love all those choices and I'm making a comparison to a film this is not like but has the same issue. Saltburn?

[47:09] Andrew DeWolf: This and Saltburn have one thing in common and no, it's not drinking cum out of a bathtub it is the fact that they reveal something as if it's a twist and I'm sitting there like, wait, that's supposed to be a twist? That's the entire fucking movie! And this is the fact that he sold his wife's soul to get the ratings. From moment one, I knew in the first 30 seconds, I knew that was what we were going for and then they reveal it like it's a big reveal and I'm like, if it's a big reveal, what the fuck was this movie? If this is what our final card was laying out. And that is a frustrating thing in narrative films for me especially in ones that have this high concept and beautiful aesthetics, great things going on in front of the camera.

[48:08] Jess McAnally: Also, there's a very simple fix here that you can fix the top of the movie and it doesn't completely fix everything but it fixes a lot of it. You don't have voiceover about how the guy would like to go in the woods with the weird people you just show a shot of him walking into the woods and there's some weird people and they just have normal narration like Jack Delroy was doing his best in the ratings and would do blah blah blah in his free time and we can surmise via the hints to the Redwoods, we saw you in the woods one time it's like there's something going on in the woods because we saw a shot of him going in the woods. I don't even think you need to show him going in the woods if this is supposed to be a documentary about his episode why not just make it a documentary about his episode and then what happens happens what he did privately in secret should be private in secret and we should find that out.

[49:06] Andrew DeWolf: I kind of want to re-edit this movie. I just want to sit it on premiere and re-edit sections which is really sad because these guys are editors that's where they got their start shouldn't you know this?

[49:21] Jess McAnally: I think they know how to edit the editing when it's edited is very 70's talk show but I think their story editing isn't as good. I'm betting one idiot producer is like I don't understand what the story is here why did these happen? I have a feeling they shot this as a normal movie.

[49:42] Andrew DeWolf: We should bring up the AI thing.

[49:45] Jess McAnally: I don't want to, it's been talked to death. I just feel like people are going to yell at us did they use AI to make this?

[49:54] Andrew DeWolf: They used AI to make certain pictures and logos people played with for fun and no one knew the ethics of it they changed it for the shutter release they took out half the logos so I don't really see a point in bringing it up anymore.

[50:10] Jess McAnally: You bullied them, good job.

[50:13] Andrew DeWolf: I only mention it because people are going to bully us about it for talking about Late Night with the Devil.

[50:19] Jess McAnally: You should bully people who use AI.

[50:22] Andrew DeWolf: Bully people who use AI but not currently use AI to make movies from scratch.

[50:29] Andrew DeWolf: Like everyone was using AI when they were making this film as their own profile pictures, those goofy like wacky things like, "Look at me, I'm a ninja turtle." It was a different time before we realized both the theft as well as the environmental issues. But now it's sadly become more commonplace every single day. Half of the ads that you see on your local or on any television station are written with ChatGPT. It's fucking depressing how commonplace it has become, and we can't put that genie back in the bottle. The sad part is I do believe originally it was just kind of good fun. Yeah, and it's just sad that now we are destroying our world because someone wanted to see what it looked like if Sonic had tits. Speaking of Sonic having tits, let's compare our opinions to those of the real critics on Letterboxd.com. It's time for...

[51:24] Jess McAnally: All right, so we explained this already. We're doing it again. Liz, what do we got?

[51:29] Liz Esten: All right, just so we know the score, just one round one. So yeah, I'm better.

[51:35] Andrew DeWolf: You can tie this whole thing because there's not a third round. I'm gonna win.

[51:40] Jess McAnally: All right, Jess, you're going first because you won.

[51:43] Jess McAnally: I felt something devilish inside me every time Jack Delroy was on screen. That's a five. They're horny. They are horny. I mean, he's not unattractive. I will give you that. I mean, in the way that a rodent is attractive.

[52:00] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I agree.

[52:01] Andrew DeWolf: Thank God I wasn't alive in the 70s. True. We're gonna go with five stars.

[52:07] Jess McAnally: It's a one.

[52:10] Andrew DeWolf: Kick in your ass. Are you ready?

[52:15] Jess McAnally: Yeah, I'm torn. Oh, that's a one. If you feel anything other than... I feel like this is much like everything is awesome or everything is terrible. You either love it or hate it.

[52:23] Andrew DeWolf: Imagine this but with Jimmy Fallon.

[52:27] Jess McAnally: I can only imagine Jimmy Fallon getting punished for anything would be positive. So five, that's correct.

[52:33] Andrew DeWolf: I will say I don't think he would let any of the guests get... The devil wouldn't get a word in edgewise because he's just laughing.

[52:40] Jess McAnally: Yeah, most of the Letterboxd reviews that were positive mentioned, "What if Jimmy... What if Jimmy Fallon was in this movie?" Five stars.

[52:48] Andrew DeWolf: I wish Jimmy Fallon was in this movie. Five star, guys, guys, just wait like 30 to 40 years and we might be able to get a Jimmy Fallon version of this.

[52:59] Liz Esten: Also one Jimmy Kimmel.

[53:01] Andrew DeWolf: One Jimmy Kimmel mentioned only. I feel like we don't bully James Corden enough anymore.

[53:07] Jess McAnally: Well, that's 'cause James Corden doesn't exist anymore. You haven't heard? Yeah, he's done his talk show.

[53:11] Andrew DeWolf: He's barely in his talk show. Who gives a shit? He actually was erased from this timeline by a new device that was created. It was called artificial intelligence. It was the D-James coordinator. Somebody hit the big red button and he no longer exists and retroactively has never existed, sadly.

[53:29] Jess McAnally: Yeah, what happens when I watch the prom movie? He's not there.

[53:36] Andrew DeWolf: Dance that video of Andrew dancing we have as a file to use in every Musicals of Cheese, formerly Musicals Cheese video. It's that on loop.

[53:43] Jess McAnally: Yeah, that's me in the prom now. Yeah, I put you in the prom, that video. You're like dancing on James Corden's shoulder. It's great.

[53:49] Andrew DeWolf: 10 out of 10. Oh my God, James Corden was born in 1978. Oh, anyway, Jess, there's one review.

[53:59] Jess McAnally: Oh, all right. Let's go. I loved every minute. I was howling. That's a one. You're tricking me.

[54:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, I'm better than you, Andrew.

[54:11] Jess McAnally: You have more questions than me, Andrew. I'm gonna give you two points for being cool. You're tied.

[54:21] Andrew DeWolf: So Andrew also won a round because Andrew had two points for being cool. Nice.

[54:26] Jess McAnally: You know what? As long as we're still friends in the end, I think both sides are great.

[54:31] Andrew DeWolf: That's also how I feel about the election.

[54:33] Jess McAnally: Thank you guys for listening.

[54:36] Andrew DeWolf: Wait, we got cheese ratings and a lot of other things first. All right, roundtable, both your cheese ratings for Late Night with the Devil and WNUF. Let's go, Andrew. You're first.

[54:40] Andrew DeWolf: Oh good Lord. Okay, WNUF. It's difficult to like necessarily recommend just like watching and sitting through. I think it's good, but I would definitely recommend if you're gonna watch it, put it on like at a party where it's not like a movie watching party. It's like you're gonna have something on in the background party because it's kind of like having the TV on in the 90s or the 80s. It's just there, you know, and you can find an old CRT. If you find an old CRT and or a VHS copy of this, that's the way. This is truly like performance art in the sense that it is actually trying to be the thing. And I think that that's the best way to enjoy it. You don't want to blow this up on your plasma. Okay, you want to put this on a CRT playing through an old VHS tape? Molly, where's your friend? Get that VHS warble, you know, you love that shit.

[55:49] Andrew DeWolf: As far as a cheese rating, I mean, Jesus, I'm just thinking grilled cheese with ketchup, and I don't know why, but I'm gonna give it that. That's just a vibe. I'm just giving it that.

[56:04] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, Late Night with the Devil. I think I was more negative than I wanted to be, but the thing is, while it absolutely nails the setting and there is some stuff that I did like, I feel like the ending just goes way too far off the rails and ruins the premise. I just don't like demon possession movies at all. Not even against this one. I'm just like, the only one I've ever liked is The Exorcist because it just feels like that's the only one that was original when it did it and everything else is just doing The Exorcist. And literally, like this one has all of it. It's got the puking, it's got the little girl possessed, it's got all that shit. It's just like, man, this genre just had one idea and it just does it over and over again.

But it's really not bad. It's a fine movie. It's definitely more mediocre. I don't know where Rotten Tomatoes is getting a 97% for this. I would definitely say more of a 78%. But yeah, as far as a cheese rating, um, God, that is difficult. A difficult cheese. I guess we'll give it demonically possessed cheese. I don't know. I think it's something right now.

[57:26] Jess McAnally: Fucking like put some effort in. No effort. I gave alien space cheese.

[57:33] Andrew DeWolf: That's true. Mine is a little more. Yeah, it's at least equivalent.

[57:41] Jess McAnally: Well, in space no one can hear you cheese. Liz, you're next.

[57:45] Liz Esten: WNUF, it hits a lot of good spots. I would definitely recommend checking it out. Watching it, watch it with some friends but in the background of a party. It's definitely recreating what it wants to very well in a very funny way if you pay attention. But it's also a good thing just to have in the background of whatever you're doing. It's a good vibe. It's a good time. So I'm gonna give WNUF Kraft mac and cheese with a side of toast. Comfy, I guess. And then I'm Late Night with the Devil. I think the reason it has such high ratings is because it's a really good theater experience. Like when you're in a theater and experiencing the movie, you feel like you're there. So you really grasp into it, so you don't really think about all the dumb shit that happens and all the bad characters that appear sometimes and the weird structure.

Now the ending just kind of baby feeds you the point of the movie. Like, "See, he bad 'cause he gave his wife cancer." Like, I know, I got that right away. Like, thanks, guys. But not to say it's bad. It's really well done in parts. The vibes are good. The lead performance is really fantastic. I want to emphasize how good this actor is. He played Polka Dot Man in the Suicide Squad movie that James Gunn made. He's very good. Cast him in more stuff. But overall, it just has its little problems I want to pick at and fix. It has the potential; it just needs to get better. And I think whatever these filmmakers decide to do next, I think they'll do it well as long as less production companies are attached to it, and they have a little more maybe more freedom to figure themselves out potentially. So I'm gonna give Late Night with the Devil cheese fondue.

[59:38] Andrew DeWolf: Two great answers. WNUF that fucks. Late Night with the Devil, I will never watch it again. My cheese ratings for them respectively: WNUF is getting classic Doritos from the 90s, jumping jack flavors, specifically when it used to look like this. And Late Night with the Devil is getting Halloween cheese balls from the 1970s that truly, truly make it look like I'm gonna throw up.

[1:00:06] Jess McAnally: Yeah, I found this soon. I googled 70s cheese. I did not do that.

[1:00:12] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, and that sums up basically how I feel about them. I have nostalgia for old-time Doritos. Probably would not feel very good eating them today, but those cheese were disgusting then, disgusting now. Speaking of disgusting things, let's bring in the wheel and find out what we're covering next week.

[1:00:25] Jess McAnally: The wheel, it's always a special occasion. We have any predictions?

[1:00:32] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I hope it's nothing election related. God, it better not be anything election. Better not be political at all.

[1:00:40] Jess McAnally: If it involves anywhere remotely like Florida, I'm gonna swing state. I'm gonna know it myself.

[1:00:46] Andrew DeWolf: No Floridians in this house.

[1:00:58] Andrew DeWolf: You know, that's actually what the real sounds like. That's been, that's not a theme song.

[1:01:03] Jess McAnally: It's hitting bells every time and oh my God, look what it landed on.

[1:01:11] Andrew DeWolf: What is, um, B-movie fans rejoice because this upcoming episode is an Andrew DeWolf pick and it is Miami Connection.

[1:01:19] Jess McAnally: What did I say about Florida? I literally just said this.

[1:01:25] Andrew DeWolf: It's okay, half of it shot in Tampa.

[1:01:28] Jess McAnally: Central Florida.

[1:01:30] Andrew DeWolf: I'm glad that nothing bad has happened to Florida any time recently that would make this very untimely and unpleasant to talk about.

[1:01:37] Jess McAnally: Thank you guys for listening. Please follow us on iTunes and Spotify at the Cheese Wheel, Twitter at Cheese Wheel Cast, or on Patreon, The Cheese Wheel, and Instagram at The Cheese Wheel Podcast. YouTube page Musicals Cheese, that ain't changing. Patreon Cheese, we are doing our commentary on Halloween Town 2: Calabar's Revenge next week at some point. Um, it'll be fun. Emails at musicaltheatrelives@gmail.com. Our keeper of the cheese is Juliet Antonio. Thank you, Juliet. This show is edited by Andrew DeWolf. This show is produced by Liz Esten. Our themes are created by Robin Nash, Value Music UK. Thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network for having us on the platform and for not kicking us off for calling Liz an idiot. I'm sorry I did that, Liz. It was really not cool of me to do that. And I think it's best that I just owned that I 100% did that.

[1:02:28] Andrew DeWolf: It's totally a thing that I did.

[1:02:31] Jess McAnally: Like the substance because I was worried gonna be like, "This movie's fucking sucks." I will admit I have not finished. I only watched an hour and then I had to cook dinner. So...

[1:02:40] Andrew DeWolf: That’s basically where I am. I'm enjoying it so far.

[1:02:44] Jess McAnally: I love it.

[1:02:45] Andrew DeWolf: Sadly living that full-time job life, you can only watch movies in incremental segments. Thank you guys for listening and we'll see you next time on the Cheese Wheel.