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[0:00] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally.

[0:11] Miranda Moffat: And I'm Miranda Moffat.

[0:12] Jesse McAnally: And welcome to Cinema with Cheese, a podcast where we talk about new releases currently in cinemas. And today, we got the W gang. We're going to be talking about two films that are coming out this weekend. The first one is Wildwood.

[0:27] Jesse McAnally: And the second is Wicker. Two very different movies tied together by one very important thing. And that thing is Richard E. Grant.

[0:37] Jesse McAnally: He was in both. That's right. That was like the big discovery of just like, oh my gosh, thematically, they both start with W and they both have Richard E. Grant.

[0:47] Jesse McAnally: The first topic we're going to start with is Wildwood.

[0:52] Jesse McAnally: An outsider child. What brought you into these woods?

[0:57] Jesse McAnally: Crows took my brother, and I'm going to find him.

[1:01] Jesse McAnally: This is a savage place.

[1:04] Jesse McAnally: And she's planning something terrible.

[1:07] Jesse McAnally: There are many creatures who mean you harm.

[1:10] Jesse McAnally: I don't want any part of your fairy tale.

[1:13] Jesse McAnally: My brother is in here somewhere.

[1:14] Jesse McAnally: We have to save him.

[1:17] Jesse McAnally: Wildwood.

[1:18] Jesse McAnally: In theaters October 23rd. Wildwood is a film directed by Travis Knight, son of Phil Knight, who you recently saw, I recently saw the story behind his acquirement of the Michael Jordan shoe in Air, where he was played by Ben Affleck.

[1:35] Jesse McAnally: And his nepo baby son is just out here playing with puppets and has been having a money losing operation because he loves the stop motion. It was written by Chris Butler and based on a novel by Colin Molloy and Carson Ellis. Colin Molloy, you might remember as one of the members of the Decembrists band, who, spoiler alert, has a little song in this movie.

[2:02] Jesse McAnally: The plot of Wildwood is the adventures of Prue McKeel as she sets off to the forest outside of Portland to find her kidnapped brother. Now, on the trailers and promotions of this, even when I saw it and I was joking around with previous guests on the show, Sarah Matthews, that it just kind of looked like it looked like a new labyrinth.

[2:25] Jesse McAnally: And having watched it, it is much less like Labyrinth than it is another musical into the woods. I thoroughly enjoyed Labyrinth. I thought it was I thoroughly enjoyed Wildwood. I thought it was a great time. Very violent, but that didn't mean there weren't moments of levity and joy.

[2:45] Jesse McAnally: I tend to struggle with high fantasy films like the Lord of the Rings and all that. Those were never quite my thing. But here, they do a lot of good work in building the world, understanding the actual politics going on. And so, when big things happen and these big movements occur, you are equally as enveloped and engaged in it.

[3:10] Jesse McAnally: And I think it's a really effectively told story. And I honestly think that kids will enjoy it as like, you know, that step into the darker materials that, you know, like the Coralines. And maybe this is like one step edgier than Coraline. Miranda, what did you think of Wildwood?

[3:29] Miranda Moffat: I think this is a few steps edgier than Coraline. I would not say that this is- I think it's PG-13, and it is appropriately PG-13. I heard somewhere, I'll need to verify this, but I heard that this movie has been in production for 16 years.

[3:49] Miranda Moffat: I saw an interview with the director Travis Knight talking about the fact that a child who was born the year that they started making this movie could have driven him to the premiere, which is hilarious. But you can definitely see that this is something that took a long time and a lot of very talented craftspeople and puppet makers and stop motion animation geniuses.

[4:13] Miranda Moffat: There were several times, I mean, almost every minute, something in that movie made me think, how did they do this? How would they have managed this in stop motion? There are some very cool moments, specifically with birds and just like flocks of birds all sort of flying, floating together as one organism almost.

[4:35] Miranda Moffat: And it is super impressive, even just for something that would have been done with a regular animation style. You almost don't know where to put your eyes, but it is an insanely impressive achievement in addition to just being a very good story.

[4:55] Miranda Moffat: And yes, it is definitely into the woods in some respects, but a very- it was much more violent than I was expecting, I think. For sure, for like an animated movie, usually you think of something that would be more of something like a kid's movie, but this is really, I think, more for the young adults and the adults in your life.

[5:16] Miranda Moffat: Not to say that, you know, some preteens can enjoy this as like, you're right, like a step kind of into more mature film. But yeah, just like a shockingly violent and shockingly good. I don't want to spoil too much, but yes, please go see it.

[5:35] Jesse McAnally: I second that, the please go see it, because it seems like a lot of folks are not going to see it, as is with almost all of Laika's films. It's not tracking well. However, the very glowing reviews that are coming out from critics like us is spiking that up.

[5:54] Jesse McAnally: And I say this is something that should be seen on a big screen so you can appreciate the actual craftsmanship at work. And the star of the show is the animation, the animators, the story, but really, a really good voice cast that is doing a proper performance.

[6:14] Jesse McAnally: We've all seen like the animated films where it seems like someone's sleepwalking through it. Here, I really want to highlight Carey Mulligan's performance as Alexandra, a villain with motivations that are really compelling. And there's times when you're actively on her side, and you kind of second guess like, wait, wait a minute. Remember what she's doing. Remember what's going on here.

[6:40] Jesse McAnally: I also really wanted to highlight the young actress who played Prue, Peyton Elizabeth Lee. I don't know this person, but with voice alone, she made that character come alive. And for these precocious kid characters, they are a trope. They could feel a little too cutesy.

[7:01] Jesse McAnally: We recently covered on Musicals with Cheese the Jennifer Connelly in Labyrinth, and I just don't—I did not find that performance that compelling in the way that I feel that she is driven and guilty and trying her best and still able to throw a joke in without undercutting the tension of the world around her.

[7:19] Jesse McAnally: And Jacob Tremblay, pre-puberty, which shows how long they've been working on this as a little Curtis, really good. I hope he continues to be a very, very strong actor into his adulthood, because he's very good at it.

[7:39] Jesse McAnally: I also want to give a hats off begrudgingly to Awkwafina, who is not a performer I tend to like in things. But I'll be damned if she didn't nearly bring my ass to tears in this movie. If you would have asked me how I felt about Awkwafina before this, and I tell you now that she brought me to tears, just shows you the journey that Wildwood takes you on.

[8:05] Miranda Moffat: I heard a lot of people actually complaining that they would not see the movie specifically because Awkwafina is in it. And she's in it very sparingly, honestly, if that's like your biggest complaint. And she really does give a very good performance.

[8:21] Miranda Moffat: I mean, all of the characters do. And as Jesse mentioned before, there is a sort of magical, mystical element to this that can be kind of confusing, especially when there is, as Jesse mentioned, sort of not a politics abroad, but there is like a greater sort of history that they're having to set up to set up the world and the conflict.

[8:45] Miranda Moffat: And the film does a very, very good job across its time span of clearly explaining the sides and the lore and sort of setting up the reasons for the movie to happen that have like a long history in this very specific land and its magical elements and the rules of the world.

[9:06] Miranda Moffat: So, it does a very good job of setting those things up, explaining them well, and giving you a perspective from all of the different sides. So, I think it is, you know, not only enjoyable in its fantasticalness, but also because it's just, you know, easy to follow. You don't get lost in the lore, which can happen sometimes in these kinds of movies.

[9:29] Miranda Moffat: You know me. And like, there are a lot of, one of my favorite parts is that there are a lot of like animal based characters, speaking animals in this. I don't think that that would be a spoiler. And yes, all of them give very, very good performances.

[9:44] Miranda Moffat: But there is, I always feel so bad for animals in movies. It does not matter to me if they are supposed to be the villain ever. And there are animals on like, you know, the quote unquote good and bad side of this conflict. And I feel bad for all of them every time.

[10:03] Miranda Moffat: Like, that was the one thing that I'm like, please, no. No animals. No animals. But there's so much violence. There is a surprising amount of violence. I was like, please, no the animals.

[10:15] Miranda Moffat: I always feel worse for them. I don't care if it's King Kong or Godzilla. I'm gonna feel bad for you. The thing is, and they don't pull their punches. Like, and the humans get it just as bad as the animals. There isn't just like, well, we're beating the shit out of the jackals.

[10:29] Jesse McAnally: I another thing that surprised me. And this film looks good. And not just the animation and all that. But like the lens choices and the visual stylings and the way the camera moves looks good.

[10:41] Jesse McAnally: And to my surprise, veteran cinematographer Caleb Deschanel, father of Zoe and Emily Deschanel, who you might know as the director of Twin Peaks and the cinematographer of classic films like Being There, National Treasure, The Patriot, was the cinematographer for this stop motion animator.

[11:00] Jesse McAnally: This man who's been doing this since the mid 20th century did a stop motion animated film. And I don't know the process for how someone can be a cinematographer for that. How do you oversee the lens choices for such a big project? I was just amazed that we have like veteran cinematographer Caleb Deschanel working on a modern film with stop motion.

[12:20] Jesse McAnally: And I really enjoyed that. And again, there are just, you watch it and you cannot believe that you are watching stop animation. And I also cannot imagine the number of hours and the amount of detail that must have gone into having to create a story like this. Like, there are some sequences, like, slight spoiler warning, there are some sequences of, like, essentially war, of battle that happened where, you know, if you're imagining something like, you know, the Game of Thrones Battle of the Bastards, or something where there are, you know, presumably hundreds of people are being sort of in a battlefield, and they're doing all of this in stop animation? Like, how? I wonder if maybe those are the elements that they incorporated CG into?

Like, there's just, there are just some things that I cannot believe that they managed. And I wonder how all of that kind of came together and what elements were what, and if they did utilize, because there was some CG, I believe, maybe just for, like, the background specifically. But yeah, you really, you just watch it, and you just have no clue how something like this could have possibly been achieved. That's how impressive it is.

[13:31] Miranda Moffat: I think it's all about the layering. Like, I don't think there was any full on CG creations like you would imagine with, like, Toy Story. What I do imagine happens is you create in stop motion all the elements you want to use. A leaf falling here, then you have a bird flying here, and another bird flying variation. But then you take it into the computer, and you map all of those different variations into a scene and composite them. All the individual pieces are still stop motion animated, but putting them all together is a digital effect. I think that that's kind of the magic of just marrying all these pieces together. While that being said, I really wanted to highlight the attention to details for character feeling, and the color that characters would feel.

If it is cold outside, their faces and noses are more red. If they are running, they are more red. If they are reacting to something, and one of the things I really appreciated as far as attention to detail was the ages. We jump in time quite a bit, and we have visual redesigns of every one of these characters with subtle, subtle differences to show what part of the timeline we're actually in. And I think that's the attention to detail that really sets us apart.

[14:39] Jesse McAnally: I have not seen Travis Knight's other stop motion animated film, Kubo and the Two Strings. I hear it's amazing. I did see Masters of the Universe, which I think you and I are mild defenders of.

[14:56] Miranda Moffat: Somewhat. I did not know that he also- I thought maybe he just did stop animation. I did not realize that he also did regular live action stuff.

[15:02] Jesse McAnally: No, I did like Masters of the Universe. It's not a masterpiece by any means, but it was a good time. This, on the other hand, does feel like a masterpiece. I think, like, whether or not people appreciate the, like, art style, it is, like, an achievement in this kind of field. I think, like, regardless of how you feel about it, or if you like the movie, which I really did. Just, you know, beyond the details, just thinking about the content of the story, and general enjoyment, and the plot, like, all of that is still very enjoyable. It's a very interesting, intricate, dark, kind of moody, but also very- has a lot of moments of brevity and wit. Like, it spins an interesting story that does, you know, for older audiences of people who might consider that, again, to be some more of, more of, like, a children's sort of form of entertainment. It really is more of an adult story with, like, intrigue, and like I said, kind of a darker, more interesting tone, I think.

[16:14] Miranda Moffat: Now, let's talk a little bit about Oscar contention. Obviously, we have Best Animated Feature that will come up. I think this might even get nominated for Best Picture, if we are thinking wildly. However, it does have some competition with Best Animated Feature, with Toy Story 5, which was very well beloved by critics. A little mixed with audiences, but it did very well. You have Hoppers, which I know people defend pretty good, as well. And then we have Wildwood, and I would give this to Wildwood any day of the week, but I don't know, the Pixar, the Toy Story of it all, that may still play a little bit. And also, we have Brad Bird's Ray Gun, which I've not seen yet, but people say is very good, and also has Tom Waits in it. That'll have that. So, I think Wildwood is one that's going to be really, really difficult to take down.

[17:15] Jesse McAnally: I don't disagree. Has a stop motion animation feature ever won Best Animated Feature?

[17:15] Miranda Moffat: Okay, what in the past?

[17:23] Jesse McAnally: Guillermo Del Toro's Pinocchio.

[17:26] Miranda Moffat: Oh, okay, okay. So, like, not completely out of the box. I don't think by any stretch of the imagination that this film will be nominated for just, like, Best Picture, period. Because people just don't- when was the last time that that happened, that an animated feature was nominated for Best Picture? Was it, like, Beauty and the Beast? Like, what, has that ever happened?

[17:48] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, it's happened. I'm pretty sure Pinocchio did. I know for a fact Toy Story 3 did. I know Up did. When they expanded it out, there have been several instances of it. It's likely never won. I doubt it ever will, but it could happen. But this is also a very weird Oscar season. They still think the Odyssey is the biggest contender for Best Picture until recently, with a very surprising drop of You Can See Everything, which seems to be another big contender for Best Picture and Best Documentary. Which we also have not seen yet, but really want to. Please don't spoil it for us.

[18:24] Miranda Moffat: Yeah, I don't think- I think that this could be comfortably nominated for a Best Animated Feature, for sure. Again, just because of the artistry. Like, I don't know. I always give props to things if it's something that I can't do. Not that I could animate anything in any style, 2D animation, 3D animation, CG, whatever. Not that I could do any of that. But I know I've said this a bunch of times. I literally have no clue how they made vast portions of this film, like, logistically. I cannot imagine the amount of planning that must have gone into it. I think just based on the amount of effort alone, it definitely deserves it. I mean, you're really taking the hard road for just the love of the game when you do something like this. And not only is it just impressive, it also is. It's good. It's good. It's a good watch. It's enjoyable. You forget at several times that you're watching a stop motion animated picture. It just is a good movie, period.

[19:33] Jesse McAnally: Yes. If I am going to talk faults, I think there are times where I feel like the movie's a little meandery and it kind of like, oh, we're doing this? Oh, okay. Okay. And the movie gets back on track fairly quickly, but there was moments where I'm like, oh, we're doing that? Oh, all right. All right. Oh, and now we're back on track. And the movie just kind of stops for a bit and we have to wait for it to like, okay, we're loading, loading. All right. We're back to it. And also, as far as the animation goes, it looks beautiful, but there are some times where there is some weight issues with the characters where they're jumping around and they kind of look like they weigh nothing. And there's like this kind of slow-mo element in their movements because there is no motion blur in stop motion.

And they're getting so close to like fixing that element into it, but it is still very much like not quite weighted right elements in some of the bigger action scenes. And when you've got this long tracking shot, you're not going to worry about this one jump where they kind of look like they're floating on air for a couple frames. I also thoroughly recommend this. If I were to give this a cheese rating, which is also the gimmick of this show, I am going to give this a monster cheese. It's very, very good. And I think kids will grow to like it, even though they may not like it at first. What about you, Miranda?

[20:58] Miranda Moffat: Oh, I would give this like, what's, is there like a nice grassy tasting like cheese, like something that incorporates like a green element, like basil or something, or maybe just like a dill, like a dill Havarti cheese. I'll go with dill Havarti, because it is like heavily based in the forest. Obviously, it's called Wildwood. So, it's like heavily based in the forest and dealing with like the elements and nature and the power of nature. And like, also, that's another thing I'd like to, I wanted to talk about is sort of like the central themes also being very strong, I think, as far as just like, being able to let go of things and like feel your feelings and feel your grief and like, knowing when to keep fighting and when to sort of accept things and like your inherent power.

Like there are a lot of very cool themes that play in this, I think. I think some of it, you're right, there are some moments where things like they go on some side quests, and you kind of lose the big picture a little bit. And some of the themes can get a bit muddy. But overall, still, still very sort of like based on the idea of like your power and, and nature. So, I'll say dill Havarti. That's my very long explanation for my cheese rating. And that's all for Wildwood. We'll be back after this break to talk about Wicker.

[23:04] Jesse McAnally: The next movie that we'll be talking about is Wicker. Wicker was directed by Alex Houston Fisher and Eleanor Wilson. Writers were Alex Houston Fisher as well. Again, Eleanor Wilson and Ursula Wills. So, Wicker is about an ostracized fisherwoman that commissions a local basket maker to weave her a husband. But when her Wicker creation proves unexpectedly extraordinary, his presence ignites jealousy and upheaval that threatens their quiet village. So, Jesse, tell us what you thought about Wicker.

[23:36] Jesse McAnally: Wicker is a movie that I came in with a preconceived

[24:09] Jesse McAnally: I thoroughly enjoyed this. This was a blast beginning to end, and you told me a little bit about the original story told by Ursula Wills, and how that turns out. I'm gonna speak in vagaries there. And I gotta say, like most adaptations, it takes the best elements and then adds their own meaning and brings it all together. I gotta say, the performances by Olivia Colman and Alexander Skarsgård really are the core of this. And if they weren't playing at the height of their intelligence and their emotional integrity, none of this would work. And I think Alexander Skarsgård's in a contest to see who can get under the most uncomfortable makeup, him or his brother Bill. And I thought that just as far as cinematography and all this, it had the feeling of an indie film and the anachronisms of a kind of goofier adaptation, like a My Lady Jane or something.

But it didn't do it enough where I felt like it was a full-on farce. As far as anything I thought didn't work for me, I think that Peter Dinklage is an actor that I either really love or is an acquired taste. And here he was mostly fine until we just like have the one man Peter Dinklage show and I feel like I'm in a different movie for a bit. Yeah, there is a couple moments. I enjoyed them where Peter Dinklage basically gets his own sort of monologue periods that end up being very Shakespearean. It does feel like a little bit removed from the rest of the movie, but it's a fine addition. But yes, the film Wicker is based on the 2008 short story The Wicker Husband by Ursula Wills. So, yes, it is based on that original short story.

And I think you are right. I do not think that this movie would have nearly as much hype if they didn't lean into the inherent sexy weirdness and the Alexander Skarsgård of it all, because that man just loves to play a little freak. He just likes to be weird. The whole Skarsgård clan does and we all appreciate him for it and appreciate them and that whole bloodline for it. It is shockingly sweet. I mean, bits of it are sexy, but that is not the point. It is not just like a fanfic smut fest. It is thoughtful. It is romantic. It is twisted. And it is very funny. I thoroughly enjoyed my watch. And you're right, the makeup, looking at him wearing that, I cannot imagine specifically around the eyes.

Like, he had freaking wicker eyelashes glued to him. I saw a video of him online the way he had to eat. He could barely open his mouth. And Alexander Skarsgård already kind of talks with his mouth sort of half closed. So, not totally different from his normal, you know, normal performance. But you could tell that he was, you know, struggling to move his face. But the makeup is so, so impressive. And learning that that is like actual practical makeup for the most part, other than some CG elements when you can sort of see the light shining through the wicker, like seeing the sunshine through it, that it's practical is ridiculous. Like, there are times when you see almost his entire body and it is covered in that material.

It is crazy. But, again, so, so impressive. So cool. But I think I would have a panic attack if I was under all that. I feel like I was having a panic attack just imagining me being under that. I also want to highlight Elizabeth Debicki, who is an actress I like a lot and is often great. But I don't think we've got to see her play something so arch, so villainous, since probably like the man from—your beloved The Man from UNCLE. I thought that she was really like one of the best parts of it. Because much like any good villain, you kind of get where she's coming from. This town that she's in, she would be the Disney princess hero, the Belle that's like, I want out of this provincial life where everyone treats me like the only smart one, and everyone's a freaking idiot, and I just want to get out from my useless husband and my even more useless father.

Played by Richard E. Grant in a wonderful one-scene role where it just seems like he was on set for a day, and they made up a scene around him. Probably my favorite scene of the movie is the Richard E. Grant scene. It has nothing to do with the Wicker Husband whatsoever. I really, really felt compelled by that—the town and their weird traditions that we set up, and the different variations of these wedding traditions. I don't know if it's based on anything, but it feels honest to what something like this could be. But then we also drop in very anachronistic words, like just referring to someone as a guy. And, you know, I thought that was more your thing, which, you know, Robert Eggers would be spitting in your face if someone said anything like that in his, you know, mid-18th century story. And here, like, they kind of know that they're making a goofy little film, and I appreciated that quite a bit.

[30:01] Miranda Moffat: Yeah, it is, you know, it is set in essentially like a fantasy version of an older time period of like, yeah, sort of a provincial setting, an agrarian setting, but is sort of a fantastical, hilarious version of that where these sort of traditions are over the top. Like, yes, those time periods had sexism and misogyny and marriages, ownership of women and all these elements, and it takes those and it shows them as the sort of like travesties that they are that women didn't have their autonomy or the ability to show themselves as smart and as wonderful as they can be with this sort of like, funny edge on top that sort of shows you how ridiculous these things are. Like, it is essentially poking fun at their traditions by showing how silly it is in this context of, yeah, there were just little elements of specific phrases and superstitions that they had that really made the world feel alive and different and specific of like, you know, like, in wishing for more children or like, you know, praying for a good birth and you like are basically like, you know, slapping yourself in the crotch to like, keep your good luck for these things and these specific superstitions of putting like water over your shoulder as opposed to the old like salt and like phrases the way that they wouldn't the way that they would not call women by their names or even their professions.

Like if you're married, you are Taylor's wife, you are not your own person. Which is done hilariously, because, you know, the Fisherwoman who is Olivia Coleman's character is, is the working person in the wicker relationship. So then he becomes the Fisherwoman's husband, so to say. They play a lot with like the gender roles and like, who does what. And for what we see, it seems a woman are doing the same jobs as their husbands in this town, but getting none of the credit and none of the dick that they want either. I thoroughly enjoyed this. I don't really know how to go deeper into it. And the only thing I really want to highlight is, without going into spoilers, is there is a practical puppet in the third act that is so wonderful and so endearing.

And I loved every bit of it. And congrats to the entire special effects team for making that look so good. Because on paper, you could end up with, you know, the movie Annette. On that note, I am going to give this fish and cheese, which is, that's my cheese rating, which is apparently a food from the town of Gander, as shown off in Come From Away, the musical, because we got a Fisherwoman, and she would probably eat fish and cheese.

[33:13] Jesse McAnally: Oh, man, I gotta think about what kind of cheese I want to give this. One thing I do want to say before I give my final cheese rating is, similar to Wildwood, I thought that the themes were very well represented. And I think that the sort of vibes and the tone were very spot on. I think it is, like you said, it has the vibe of kind of an indie movie with almost, it has moments that feel very like romance. And like you said, like My Lady Jane, sort of like heightened history, mixed with something that's a little bit darker, like, almost like the Robert Eggers, like Vovich sort of feeling to some sections of it as well. Because I think like the underlying themes of all of this are like, it is easier to believe the bad things than the good things.

And the sort of like, seeing other people sort of living your dreams and getting what you want can sort of bring out this inherent ugliness in you if you are not prepared to fight for what you want in turn. Like, I think all those things are very interesting and well represented in Elizabeth Debicki's performance as the sort of villain of this movie. So, yes, very enjoyable. Not a smut fest, but you know, still, you'll still get some wicker peen. You'll get what you're looking for. So, highly recommend. What would I say for a cheese rating? Maybe like a goat cheese, like a goat cheese, because it's really kind of like, it's funky. And it's like something that you're not used to having, but it's still really delicious in the right setting. And that's exactly what this movie feels like to me. And also because like provincial setting, there's goats and stuff, goats and farm animals and things that feels appropriate.

[35:03] Miranda Moffat: Hard agree. And that has been all for Cinema with Cheese. Next week, we might cover something that doesn't start with a W. We'll see you next time. And thank you for listening. This is kind of like our first real episode. So, let's do this some more, kids. Well, bye-bye.