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[0:00] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Welcome to the Drama Book Show! My name is Mark-Eugene Garcia.

[0:21] David Rigano: My name is David Rigano. And this is our twenty-first episode.

[0:24] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Happy twenty-first! Happy twenty-one! We can drink, we should have brought some drinks here.

[0:28] David Rigano: Yeah. Certainly, we could drink more than I was able to, not more, different than I was able to drink at my actual twenty-first birthday. I'm just doing a whiskey neat. What's your poison of choice?

[0:41] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Anything with tequila. I think if it's good enough, give me a shots worth of tequila and let me just sip it slowly.

[0:48] David Rigano: I don't like to shoot tequila.

[0:50] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Oh, really? I would rather have good tequila and taste it.

[0:55] David Rigano: When I was much younger, a cousin and I did twenty shots. That was a much younger, much different me. Now, it's a margarita every once in a while, and that's kind of it.

[1:05] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Sure. There was this restaurant that I loved. It was around the corner from my house. I'm still so sad that it's gone. Every really hot day of the summer, I'm so sad that it's not there. They have a cucumber cilantro margarita, and it's one of the best things I've ever tasted.

[1:21] David Rigano: I have had an accidental dry January, now that I think about it.

[1:26] Mark-Eugene Garcia: I have not. The last time I went out was actually to see one of our co-workers perform. I went to see Ria Mezzanine performing at Balcones, and I definitely had some margaritas then, and they were amazing.

[1:42] David Rigano: Oh, they're incredible. It was just absolutely incredible. I wanted to put some of the video up, but I can't because in all the videos, you just hear me screaming the whole time. I'm working somewhere right now that has whiskey samples. So I've had—I'm not going to specify where.

[1:54] Mark-Eugene Garcia: We won't say.

[1:59] David Rigano: But I've had a couple of, again, slow sips of about half a shot's worth of scotch. We have gone a roundabout way to our topic at hand. But let's raise a glass to who, since we recorded this, has become a two-time Tony Award winner.

[2:15] Mark-Eugene Garcia: So much to celebrate. Yeah. We're talking, of course, about Shaina Taub, who became a two-time Tony Award winner in one night when she won the Tony Award for Best Book of a Musical and Best Score of a Musical for Suffs.

[2:30] David Rigano: And the book and the vocal selections are available here at Drama Bookshop. But that's not what we're talking about.

[2:39] Mark-Eugene Garcia: But also, though, while we have that connect between Suffs and the Drama Bookshop, there's also another one. Is that former employee, Salala Brock, left the Drama Bookshop to be in Suffs at The Public and went on to do Suffs on Broadway.

[2:53] David Rigano: I think that I met her once.

[2:56] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Oh, really? I've met her since then, but we were on a shift together once. Because Salala did Suffs off-Broadway. And so when I met her, this is Salala, who did Suffs off-Broadway, and then she left again. That's why I only had one shift with her, because she left again to do Suffs on Broadway.

[3:14] David Rigano: Oh, I'm so proud of her.

[3:15] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And she was amazing.

[3:16] David Rigano: Yeah, I'm so proud of her. From the first day at working together, which was one of the first days working here as we reopened, she was just amazing. Just so smart and so just wonderful. And to see her get all of this has just been incredible. Absolutely incredible.

[3:37] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And she plays one of the male characters in the play. If you haven't seen it, it is getting a pro shot. So you'll get the chance to see it on PBS or Apple TV, whoever streams it. And yeah, she looks great in a three-piece button-down.

[3:51] David Rigano: And sounds great.

[3:52] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And sounds fantastic.

[3:54] David Rigano: She's so fun. She gets a really funny duet that is poignant and funny and really makes you think, historically speaking.

[4:05] Mark-Eugene Garcia: While we're talking about Suffs, yes, you're right. This wasn't about Suffs. In fact, we had to schedule the event around the rehearsals for Suffs. So what was this about, David?

[4:17] David Rigano: This was because Shaina, obviously Suffs was developed at The Public. And Shaina Taub has had a fantastic relationship with The Public, because she has been commissioned for two Public Works musicals. If you don't know what The Public is, Joe Papp's Public Theater downtown, and it is meant to be a theater for the people. And every summer, they do free Shakespeare in the park.

[4:34] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And something that they've done, I think it's only within the last 10 years or so, is called Public Works, where they commission new adaptations, usually of Shakespeare plays. But for example, I saw Hercules there. And they try to make it a very community thing. So they'll get local choirs in, or local marching bands in, children's acting groups in there. They really try to make it something for the community.

[5:06] David Rigano: And Shaina was commissioned twice to do musicals of Shakespeare plays. So we are here because her musical adaptations of Twelfth Night and As You Like It were published right around the same time. And she came in to talk about what it was like to adapt and create these two musicals, specifically for the Public Works program.

[5:30] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And it was a wonderful Shakespeare-ance.

[5:38] David Rigano: How long were you sitting on that one?

[5:39] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Oh, for some time.

[5:43] David Rigano: Both of these are plays that have an element of drag in them. Specifically, an element of drag that I think that we don't tend to think of, which is women dressing as men.

[5:56] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Nice.

[5:56] David Rigano: Which, of course, then, as we mentioned, shows up again in Suffs, since it was an all-female cast. But you had to have people playing some of the male characters, the way that Salala did, the way that—of course, I blank on her name—the way that Grace McLean did, playing the president so beautifully and hilariously. So she did talk a little bit about the coincidence of writing these two musicals from Shakespeare plays that have women dressing in drag in them. And that was not the thing that she was going for, but it certainly plays a role.

[6:35] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Wonderful. It was a real good deep dive into it. And we had a special guest moderating as well.

[6:41] David Rigano: Yes, she brought in Ato Blankson-Wood, who is a Tony-nominated actor for Jeremy O. Harris's Slave Play on Broadway, and they had known each other since college. So she brought him in to moderate the event and talk about their history making theater together, and her history and her point of view in creating musicals.

[7:04] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Let's jump on in and listen to this.

[7:05] David Rigano: Let's do it. Everybody welcome Shaina Taub.

[7:08] Shaina Taub: I love you.

[7:14] Ato Blankson-Wood: We were just reminiscing backstage about knowing each other since the wild days of 2005. I remember when we were in the same college alcohol group, and I demanded Ato as the cool senior, and I was like, who is this? And Shaina was like the prodigy freshman. We were like, why are you this talented? This is crazy.

[7:38] Ato Blankson-Wood: But let's get into it, because we're here to talk about As You Like It and Twelfth Night. I just want to understand how you became involved with the Public Works community specifically.

[7:49] Shaina Taub: Yeah, so for those of you who don't know, Public Works is an amazing community-based program at the Public Theater, and the artistic director is my amazing collaborator. And as you like it, Lori Wolfer is here tonight. And go Lori! And I first encountered Public Works as a fan. The first production they did was in 2013, a production of The Tempest at the Delacorte Theater in Central Park.

[8:13] Shaina Taub: And so Public Works is this amazing program where the Public Theater partners with eight community organizations from all over the five boroughs of New York. There's Domestic Workers United, Military Resilience Project, Dream Yard in the Bronx, Children's Aid, Casita Maria, Real Life, and...

[8:32] Ato Blankson-Wood: Did you say MRF?

[8:33] Shaina Taub: Yeah, Military Resilience Foundation.

[8:35] Ato Blankson-Wood: You said Fortune?

[8:36] Shaina Taub: Fortune Society, yes. I think I got them all, and apologies if I forgot one. I love them all dearly. But these are all community organizations that you could talk about all night individually. They serve communities all throughout New York, and have all kinds of thriving services and arts and all kinds of things. And the Public Theater started to partner with them 10 years ago, to come out to the communities and offer whatever they were interested in working on.

[9:01] Shaina Taub: Did they want an acting class, a dance class? All of those community partnerships culminated in these giant ambitious pageants in Central Park every summer, where a cast of 200 would come together and put on these huge shows. If you've seen one, it's from little, little kids to people your grandparents' age, and everything in between. And also some, quote, professional actors, like us. But really, part of Public Works is blurring that line of every artistry is inherent in every human being, and the arts are something that should belong to all of us, all the shows are free.

[9:34] Shaina Taub: And so anyway, I was so obsessed with this that I went to go see The Tempest, and I was so blown away. And I was like, this is what I want theater to be, this is what I wish it could be all the time, this joyful, communal, uplifting... And I was so into it, I posted about it on Facebook. I was just like a fan. And then in 2015, I got a text from Lierre de Bessonnet, who was the founding director of Public Works, and we kind of knew each other socially. And she was like, do you have a second to talk? And in my mind, I was like, could this be about Public Works? I was like, no. And I talked to her, she's like, would you be interested maybe in working on a show for Public Works? I was like, ooh, yes! And it just felt like such an amazing opportunity. And yeah, and that was the first one I did was Twelfth Night. So for me, what was so great is I immediately wanted to get to know some of the community members involved.

[10:27] Shaina Taub: And I got to go, there's this incredible thing with Public Works where they have a monthly potluck where folks gather. And so I got to meet some of the people I was writing the show for. And yeah, and then I did that first production in 2016. And then I did As You Like It with Lori in 2017. And there was something so special. I have such love for both shows, but As You Like It especially, which was our original Orlando. I'm like, Orcino, Orlando! Because I had a relationship with Public Works community. So I felt like I really, I knew who I was writing for. It's so rare, I feel like as a writer, where you really know what your production is going to be and what the context is for. So that was something so special.

[11:09] Ato Blankson-Wood: This is a sort of two-pronged question. When Lierre came to you, was she like, it's Twelfth Night? Or were you like, I think I have an idea about what I'd like to write into? And also, just sort of overall, what is your relationship with Shakespeare and musicalizing Shakespeare? Where are you with that?

[11:28] Shaina Taub: Yeah, Twelfth Night was the assignment, so to speak. And I feel like I just lucked out because it's such a good one. And I think having a chosen for me helps. Whereas with As You Like It, you got to make that choice, which was also special. But Shakespeare, I mean, I played Hermia in Midsummer in 2001, in seventh grade, at Pelham Union High School. Grace Potter was Titania, the rock singer Grace Potter, fun fact. And then professionally, I did this production of The Tempest that was directed by Aaron Posner and Teller, Penn and Teller, that was in Las Vegas with Tom Waits songs. And we were like the musicians, and I arranged all these Tom Waits songs. And that was cool. But I have to be honest, I wasn't a big Shakespeare person.

I don't know if I am. It's not something I think I would have chosen, because I felt it always felt a little inaccessible to me. I didn't feel smart enough to understand it, even though I had respect for it. And I think I just felt intimidated. And so digging into these two plays and really going line by line, and I know if you're Shakespeare, and learning about them gave me the real appreciation for it, but I definitely didn't have it going in.

[12:36] Ato Blankson-Wood: Yeah, I'm just gonna gas you up a little bit more. And just say like, it's interesting that you say like, you didn't feel smart enough for Shakespeare, because I, even outside of these shows, inside of the music that you write, the way you write poetry and lyric is on par for me with Shakespeare. Like I think you have a facility in a way that feels so on par with the Bard.

[13:00] Shaina Taub: Okay, I'd also, where does the lyricism come from? Because your melodies are so beautiful, but something that always strikes me.

[13:11] Shaina Taub: Thank you so much for having us. It's so exciting to be here.

[13:41] Ato Blankson-Wood: Yeah, it's a real treat. I mean, we get to talk about two incredible shows today.

[13:51] Shaina Taub: Absolutely. I’m thrilled to dive into both "As You Like It" and "Twelfth Night."

[14:01] Ato Blankson-Wood: They both have such rich themes of identity and love, and I think they resonate so well with audiences today.

[14:11] Shaina Taub: Definitely. And the way we’ve adapted them brings a fresh perspective while honoring the original texts.

[14:21] Ato Blankson-Wood: I love how you’ve infused contemporary elements into the storytelling. It makes it feel so relevant.

[14:31] Shaina Taub: Thank you! I really wanted to create a space where the music and the characters feel alive and relatable.

[14:41] Ato Blankson-Wood: And you’ve done that beautifully. The music is so catchy and heartfelt.

[14:51] Shaina Taub: I appreciate that! The goal was to make it an immersive experience for the audience.

[15:01] Ato Blankson-Wood: It really is. I think audiences leave feeling uplifted and inspired.

[15:11] Shaina Taub: That’s the hope! Both shows explore the complexities of love and friendship, which are timeless themes.

[15:21] Ato Blankson-Wood: And the humor in "Twelfth Night" is just so clever. It really shines through in your adaptation.

[15:31] Shaina Taub: I had a lot of fun with the comedic elements. Shakespeare’s humor is still so relevant today.

[15:41] Ato Blankson-Wood: It’s amazing how those themes transcend time.

[15:51] Shaina Taub: Exactly! And I think that’s what makes Shakespeare’s work so enduring.

[16:01] Ato Blankson-Wood: And your interpretations really highlight that.

[16:11] Shaina Taub: Thank you! I’m excited for audiences to experience it.

[16:21] Ato Blankson-Wood: So, what was your inspiration for the musical style in "As You Like It"?

[16:31] Shaina Taub: I wanted to create a folk-pop sound that feels organic and inviting, reflecting the pastoral setting.

[16:41] Ato Blankson-Wood: It definitely has that vibe. The music feels like it could be sung around a campfire.

[16:51] Shaina Taub: That’s exactly what I was going for! It’s about community and connection.

[17:01] Ato Blankson-Wood: And it works so well with the story.

[17:11] Shaina Taub: I’m glad you think so! The characters are all about finding their place in the world.

[17:21] Ato Blankson-Wood: And the way you’ve woven in those themes of identity is so powerful.

[17:31] Shaina Taub: Thank you! It’s something I’m really passionate about exploring in my work.

[17:41] Ato Blankson-Wood: It shows. I think audiences will really connect with that.

[17:51] Shaina Taub: I hope so! It’s all about making those connections.

[18:01] Ato Blankson-Wood: And speaking of connections, how has the collaboration process been for you?

[18:11] Shaina Taub: It’s been incredible. Working with such talented people brings so much energy to the project.

[18:21] Ato Blankson-Wood: Collaboration is key in theater, and it seems like you’ve fostered a great environment.

[18:31] Shaina Taub: Absolutely! Everyone’s voice matters, and it creates a richer experience.

[18:41] Ato Blankson-Wood: That’s so important. It really shows in the final product.

[18:51] Shaina Taub: Thank you! I’m really proud of what we’ve created together.

[19:01] Ato Blankson-Wood: And I can’t wait for everyone to see it!

[19:11] Shaina Taub: Me too! It’s going to be a special experience for everyone involved.

[19:21] Ato Blankson-Wood: So, what’s next for you after this?

[19:31] Shaina Taub: I’m looking forward to exploring new projects and continuing to push boundaries in theater.

[19:41] Ato Blankson-Wood: That sounds exciting! I can’t wait to see what you come up with next.

[19:51] Shaina Taub: Thank you! I appreciate your support.

[20:01] Ato Blankson-Wood: Of course! It’s been a pleasure chatting with you today.

[20:11] Shaina Taub: Likewise! I’ve enjoyed every moment.

[20:21] Ato Blankson-Wood: Let’s keep the conversation going as the shows progress.

[20:31] Shaina Taub: Absolutely! I’d love that.

[20:41] Ato Blankson-Wood: Great! Thank you for sharing your insights today.

[20:51] Shaina Taub: Thank you for having me!

[21:01] Ato Blankson-Wood: And thank you to everyone in the audience for joining us!

[21:11] Shaina Taub: Yes, thank you all! Your support means the world to us.

[21:21] Ato Blankson-Wood: We hope you enjoy the shows as much as we enjoyed creating them.

[21:31] Shaina Taub: Definitely! It’s all about the joy of theater.

[21:41] Ato Blankson-Wood: And we can’t wait to share that joy with you.

[21:51] Shaina Taub: See you at the theater!

[22:01] Ato Blankson-Wood: Bye everyone!

[22:11] Shaina Taub: Bye!

[22:21] Ato Blankson-Wood: Thank you!

[22:31] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[22:41] Ato Blankson-Wood: Thank you!

[22:51] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[23:01] Ato Blankson-Wood: Thank you!

[23:11] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[23:21] Ato Blankson-Wood: Thank you!

[23:31] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[23:41] Ato Blankson-Wood: Thank you!

[23:51] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[24:01] Ato Blankson-Wood: Thank you!

[24:11] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[24:21] Ato Blankson-Wood: Thank you!

[24:31] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[24:41] Ato Blankson-Wood: Thank you!

[24:51] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[25:01] Ato Blankson-Wood: Thank you!

[25:11] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[25:21] Ato Blankson-Wood: Thank you!

[25:31] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[25:41] Ato Blankson-Wood: Thank you!

[25:51] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[26:01] Ato Blankson-Wood: Thank you!

[26:11] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[26:23] Shaina Taub: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

[26:53] Shaina Taub: I think one of the most exciting things about adapting Shakespeare is that you get to take these incredible texts and make them feel alive and relevant for today.

[27:03] Shaina Taub: With "Twelfth Night," for example, the themes of identity and love are so universal, and I wanted to explore that in a way that feels fresh and contemporary.

[27:13] Shaina Taub: The music in "Twelfth Night" is really a reflection of that. It’s a mix of different genres that I think captures the spirit of the play.

[27:23] Shaina Taub: And then with "As You Like It," I wanted to create this immersive experience where the audience feels like they are part of the story, almost like they’re in the forest with the characters.

[27:33] Shaina Taub: The folk-pop style of the music really helps to create that dream-like quality, and I think it resonates with people in a different way.

[27:43] Shaina Taub: I also love how both plays deal with themes of friendship and love, and how those relationships evolve throughout the story.

[27:53] Shaina Taub: It’s fascinating to see how Shakespeare's characters navigate their emotions and relationships, and I think that’s something everyone can relate to.

[28:03] Shaina Taub: I’m really proud of how we’ve been able to bring these stories to life in a way that feels both respectful to the original text and innovative.

[28:13] Shaina Taub: The collaboration with the cast has been incredible, and I think their energy really brings the music and the story to life.

[28:23] Shaina Taub: I’m excited for audiences to experience this new take on these classic plays and hopefully see themselves in the characters.

[28:33] Shaina Taub: It’s all about connection, and I think that’s what theater does best.

[28:43] Shaina Taub: I also want to highlight how important it is to have diverse voices in theater, especially when it comes to adapting classic works.

[28:53] Shaina Taub: It’s essential to bring different perspectives to the table, and I think that enriches the storytelling.

[29:03] Shaina Taub: I’m really passionate about creating spaces where everyone feels represented and heard.

[29:13] Shaina Taub: And I think that’s what makes theater such a powerful medium.

[29:23] Shaina Taub: It’s not just about telling a story; it’s about creating a dialogue and fostering understanding.

[29:33] Shaina Taub: I hope that audiences leave feeling inspired and connected to the themes we explore in both "Twelfth Night" and "As You Like It."

[29:43] Shaina Taub: I’m really looking forward to seeing how people respond to the shows.

[29:53] Shaina Taub: It’s always a bit nerve-wracking, but I think that’s part of the excitement of putting on a new production.

[30:03] Shaina Taub: I can’t wait for everyone to experience the magic of live theater.

[30:13] Shaina Taub: Thank you again for having me here to talk about these incredible works.

[30:23] Shaina Taub: I’m really grateful for the opportunity to share my passion for theater with all of you.

[30:33] Shaina Taub: Let’s keep the conversation going about the importance of storytelling and representation in the arts.

[30:43] Shaina Taub: I think it’s crucial for us as artists to continue pushing boundaries and exploring new ideas.

[30:53] Shaina Taub: And I’m excited to see where that takes us in the future.

[31:03] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[31:13] Shaina Taub: I’m really looking forward to the upcoming performances and hope to see you all there.

[31:23] Shaina Taub: It’s going to be a fantastic journey, and I’m thrilled to be a part of it.

[31:33] Shaina Taub: Let’s celebrate the power of theater together!

[31:43] Shaina Taub: Thank you so much for your support and enthusiasm.

[31:53] Shaina Taub: I can’t wait to share these stories with you.

[32:03] Shaina Taub: It’s going to be a beautiful experience, and I hope you all enjoy it as much as we’ve enjoyed creating it.

[32:13] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[32:23] Shaina Taub: I’m really excited for the future of theater and the stories we have yet to tell.

[32:33] Shaina Taub: Let’s keep dreaming big and making art that matters.

[32:43] Shaina Taub: Thank you for being here and for your passion for the arts.

[32:53] Shaina Taub: I’m looking forward to what’s next!

[33:03] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[33:13] Shaina Taub: I appreciate all of you for being part of this journey with us.

[33:23] Shaina Taub: Let’s continue to uplift each other and create amazing work together.

[33:33] Shaina Taub: Thank you so much for your time and support.

[33:43] Shaina Taub: I’m really grateful for this opportunity to share my work with you.

[33:53] Shaina Taub: Let’s keep the conversation going about the importance of theater in our lives.

[34:03] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[34:13] Shaina Taub: I’m excited for the future and all the stories we have yet to tell.

[34:23] Shaina Taub: Let’s keep dreaming and creating together.

[34:33] Shaina Taub: Thank you for being here and for your support.

[34:43] Shaina Taub: I can’t wait to see you all at the shows!

[34:53] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[35:03] Shaina Taub: I’m really looking forward to sharing these stories with you.

[35:13] Shaina Taub: Let’s celebrate the magic of theater together.

[35:23] Shaina Taub: Thank you for your enthusiasm and support.

[35:33] Shaina Taub: I’m excited for what’s to come!

[35:43] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[35:53] Shaina Taub: I appreciate all of you for being part of this journey.

[36:03] Shaina Taub: Let’s keep creating and dreaming big together.

[36:13] Shaina Taub: Thank you for being here and for your passion for the arts.

[36:23] Shaina Taub: I’m really grateful for this opportunity to share my work with you.

[36:33] Shaina Taub: Let’s continue to uplift each other and make amazing art.

[36:43] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[36:53] Shaina Taub: I’m looking forward to what’s next!

[37:03] Shaina Taub: Thank you for your support and enthusiasm.

[37:13] Shaina Taub: I can’t wait to see you all at the shows!

[37:23] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[37:33] Shaina Taub: I’m really excited for the future of theater.

[37:43] Shaina Taub: Let’s keep dreaming and creating together.

[37:53] Shaina Taub: Thank you for being here and for your passion for the arts.

[38:03] Shaina Taub: I’m really grateful for this opportunity to share my work with you.

[38:13] Shaina Taub: Let’s keep the conversation going about the importance of storytelling.

[38:23] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[38:33] Shaina Taub: I’m excited for the future and all the stories we have yet to tell.

[38:43] Shaina Taub: Let’s keep dreaming big and making art that matters.

[38:53] Shaina Taub: Thank you for being here and for your support.

[39:03] Shaina Taub: I can’t wait to see you all at the shows!

[39:13] Shaina Taub: Thank you!

[39:23] Shaina Taub: I’m really looking forward to sharing these stories with you.

[39:34] Shaina Taub: And I took guitar lessons with a really cute guitar teacher and I worked really hard for like six months and I learned how to play "Blackbird." That was like my gauntlet. And then that guitar teacher left, and I'm like embarrassed I lost interest. You know, I'm sorry, whatever I said that was shallow. And then I've had a guitar for a lot of years, and I was always like, I'm gonna pick it back up because I can still play "Blackbird." That's like my party track. And I always am meaning to get back on it, but I would have to be stuck somewhere with a guitar and no piano to force it. Anytime I get frustrated on guitar, I'm like, screw this, like the piano's right there. So guitar is not a strong yes. I would not play it in public. I do not believe I have been in public. And then flute, I played flute as my instrument in middle school and high school.

[39:56] Ato Blankson-Wood: Wait, what?

[39:58] Shaina Taub: Yeah, I mean, I wish I made a different choice. I could have played saxophone. I could have played trumpet. Like, come on. I think flute is pretty rad.

[40:05] Ato Blankson-Wood: My flute is rad. André 3000 thinks it's also pretty rad.

[40:09] Shaina Taub: Absolutely. Lizzo, I mean, not to denigrate, flute rocks. My fluting did not rock particularly. I found it really hard, like all the breath, which is crazy. Yeah, singer. Like, I just remember feeling exhausted, but I wasn't a great practicer. It wasn't until I feel like I got to college and everyone needed a pianist all the time that I was just like, oh, this is a way I can like make friends and like be a part of groups and communities.

[40:58] Ato Blankson-Wood: Yes, your work. I've heard with many instruments, so you finish the song, you know what you've got, and then you're orchestrating it. But you don't necessarily play all these instruments, and there's so much subtlety to a lot of what you've done in the orchestrations where just one little ping completely changes the tenor of what we're listening to. Do you come up with that? Do you collaborate on that? How does all that happen?

[41:26] Shaina Taub: Yeah, I mean, it really depends on the project. You know, I've played over the years live at Joe's Pub with some amazing musicians, and in that context, it's like I've seen bringing—yes, I recognize you—and that's like bringing my little piano vocal recording that I made of the completed composition, sending it to the players I'm working with at the time beforehand, and then I'll kind of get in the room and jam and figure out what that arrangement is kind of together in the tradition of like a pop rock kind of group. But then with theater, I mean, I've been lucky to work with some incredible orchestrators who kind of are the ones who I don't orchestrate for myself in terms of like foreign strings, winds, like that.

I do collaborate, but I find it's—I'm always really moved by how like things from the initial composition can get brought out. Every project is different. Every collaboration is different. I've had so many—I mean, such a wide range from like getting to work with Elton John, which has been amazing and wild and surreal. And then with—I mean, every—it's—each project is bespoke. But I think I am always interested in just finding—I'm a big just like person with my creative practice and discipline and like trying to find a rhythm with the work and a rigor and a regularity and finding whatever that process is with the collaborators. Usually high on my list. Laurie and I, in "As You Like It," we had a very short time to do it.

Once a week for an entire fall semester, let's meet up once a week and just read through the play and read the play to each other. I love that kind of rigor. Like on something like "Suffs," my amazing director Lee Silverman setting deadlines together and setting benchmarks. I remember like I think almost six years—six years ago this month was our very first little reading of "Suffs," and I had like five songs, and like a lot of them are still in the show. And I wasn't ready. It was like that fall before I was like, uh, I need more time. I need more time. And we was like, let's just do something in January. And that just—that's the kind of thing I love of just like let's make a plan before we're ready.

Let's try something before we know what it is. And I think that that's like the common denominator of my collaborations is you just—just do. Just try. Just like push it. Like set a schedule, set a plan, set a time you're going to share with people. Just like I like to work with doers, you know?

[43:47] Ato Blankson-Wood: Okay, so you guys are working on "As You Like It." Did you ever run into any issues of your concept specifically? Everything you brought to this text, did you ever run into any things that you wanted to do that you couldn't really justify in the text? Like how did you handle it if there was something like—you know, everything was like you can imagine, which is what you were into, but I'm just wondering if that's happened.

[44:14] Shaina Taub: Yeah, I'm not sure there are things we want to do but couldn't justify. I think there—I mean, but there—because I think everything for us was about trying to create something that would just like hold community, like a hammock, like a musical hammock. I think that helped us make choices that put that first, which is rare in a musical. I just feel like another musical, like what are we doing? Why are we doing it? Who is it for? And it's like we just knew exactly those things. And with "As You Like It," it was such a revelation for us was, you know, usually it's Duke Senior and a couple lords, you know, there's like four or five guys in the forest. And we were like, oh, well, what if actually all these people who've been banished from this tyrannical kingdom for arbitrary reasons or not so arbitrary reasons or, you know, have been othered in this society and cast out?

What if that was a whole community of people and families and people living in Arden and creating a new model of what a unified city could be, which is sort of the mission of Public Works? It was always how can we—Public Works is such a like vehicle for empathy, and how can we like tie the thing? How can we create a context for that to thrive? But I think at your question also made me think it's not that things are congestive. I think—I mean, I have—I always wanted to work in something for Celia, a sort of like always a bridesmaid's never brought like a song for Celia, and I like wish I could have figured that out. But also, it's a part of I think what helps it work as an adaptation. It's not—I mean, we've had a lot in, I think, but it would buckle under its weight if you try to do everything. But that's one. Maybe I'll write that song for—

[46:03] Ato Blankson-Wood: Hi. So one cool thing about your shows is that they go back and forth between two very different styles. We've talked a little bit about language, but I remember like first time I was at a read for "Twelfth Night," it was like prose, prose, Shakespeare, iambic. And then at some point during the first song, there's a joke about ship names where they go like Cesario, Libya. And I think it fits really well in your shows, and I'm curious what's your process as a lyricist when you're dealing with something like the bar that people are very secret about, and yet you put your own spin on it very well.

[46:30] Shaina Taub: Thank you so much. I mean, part of it is I'm always grateful for the form I feel like I inherited from Todd Almond's earlier to best name what they set up of, okay, the scenes for the most part are going to be the classic text with some irreverent exceptions. But then the songs are in contemporary prose. Like, so that wasn't a method I chose. I was like, well, that works for them. Let me do that. So it's always kind of an alchemy I can't quite explain. It's like it shouldn't work, but it does. Like, trust me, you know, it's a hard pitch kind of. But I think actually the more irreverent—I don't want to say casual, but just—I don't know. I felt like authentic to my own voice or how I would talk, I was—the better it complemented the Shakespeare.

Like, I think if I tried to do something with contemporary language that was somewhat heightened to emulate it, it would have—I mean, it can't compare the language. So for me, it was like the mash-up, the juxtaposition of exactly hearing Cesario, Libya, or hearing a contemporary reference or something, you know, like sarcasm in a sitcom tone. Like, actually, that mash-up against the Shakespeare is what I hope kind of like makes it satisfying. You—I also want to add, like, the goal with a non-musicalized Shakespeare, at least for me, is always how do you make it relevant to this moment and these people? And so I think the thing that you're talking about is sort of like that on steroids, right?

It can do this thing that allows it to be accessible for this moment, which like when these plays were written, they were for that moment, right? So like—and again, with in terms of the score, like the musical vocabulary, Public Works is this unique thing of I think the world that we create on stage and Public Works, like the Alleria we created the art and we created often with a Shakespeare adaptation a non-musical Shakespeare edition be like, okay, we're gonna do Romeo and Juliet, but it's in, I don't know, 1930s Detroit, or we're gonna do Hamlet, but it's in 1980s Cribby. I don't like whatever. You put a time and place on it, which is so amazing and interesting. Part of the bedrock of these adaptations is that we don't pick one specific cultural time or place, which is sort of like—it's hard because it's a non-specific choice, and generally with theater you should make the specific choice.

But there's something about it where no one's an expert here. It is a world we're creating. It's an imagined world. It's an aspirational world where what if there was a city by the water called Delirium where people from all over New York could feel like they truly belonged and be in community with each other? And the gift for me as a songwriter is I think that concept, that underlying philosophy gives me license to go all over the musical map in a way that I think might be like irresponsible in another. I feel like in other musicals I'm like, what kind of need to not necessarily make a genre choice, but like, you know, the kind of cohesive—not to say that the scores for the Shakespeare, they had their own cohesion, but I was like, what?

Let me just like make the biggest tip possible, and let's have an 80s rock ballad, exactly, boy band. Let's do Motown. Let's do New Orleans. Let's do folk. Let's do—let's just do—just make it a big cornucopia of everything, a little bit of everything, because that's what Public Works is. It's folks from all over, all different backgrounds, all—and yet, despite all the odds, coming together to make something. So like, how can the score kind of reflect that multiplicity? So it's—I pine for it in other projects because I'm like, can I just do that again? Like, yeah.

[49:52] Ato Blankson-Wood: Well, I think we've come to the end of this section of our night and just wanted to say I'm so proud of you.

[50:01] Shaina Taub: I'm so proud of you.

[50:02] Ato Blankson-Wood: I love you too.

[50:04] Shaina Taub: Yeah.

[50:05] Ato Blankson-Wood: That was awesome. So neat to think that this was all before "Suffs." This was all before, right? Any of this all happened.

[50:11] Shaina Taub: Yeah, I remember inviting her to something that I had coming up, and she was like, that is so nice, and I am going to be in tech for "Suffs."

[50:18] Ato Blankson-Wood: Yeah, I was like, listen.

[50:23] Shaina Taub: Yeah, I'd rather be written. No, the show that I did was wonderful, but I was like, yeah.

[50:27] Ato Blankson-Wood: She also, like, I mean, was exceptionally busy aside from that because at one point she was doing "Suffs" and "Ragtime."

[50:36] Shaina Taub: Yes, that was in November.

[50:37] Ato Blankson-Wood: Yeah, huh. I saw her in "Ragtime."

[50:41] Shaina Taub: When did you see her?

[50:42] Ato Blankson-Wood: Because I know you saw—

[50:43] Shaina Taub: I saw it prior to the day.

[50:45] Ato Blankson-Wood: I saw it the day after. What we're referring to, if you don't know exactly what that overlap was, that the concert version of "Ragtime" at City Center Encores was running the week of the most recent presidential election in November. And my friend, the wonderful performer Adara Brian, who has sung some of my stuff before, and she's on YouTube doing that great stuff, she said to me months earlier, I bought us tickets to go see "Ragtime" the day after the election. And then because she, to some kind of masochist, she also bought herself tickets to see "Suffs" on election night.

[51:15] Shaina Taub: Oh man.

[51:16] Ato Blankson-Wood: But Shaina not only did the performance of "Suffs" on election night, she did the matinee of "Suffs" the next day and then went and played Emma Goldman in "Ragtime" that night. Booked and blessed.

[51:35] Shaina Taub: So I do know people actually who basically spent the entire day with Shaina because they saw "Suffs" in the afternoon and went to see "Ragtime." And I think a day like that, a day with Shaina.

[51:46] Ato Blankson-Wood: Yes, yes. And I will say there were a lot of things that obviously "Ragtime" always makes me cry, but there were a lot of like very specific things that made me cry in a way that I don't usually. Yeah, and a lot of very specific lines. A large group of people on stage singing, "What is wrong with this country?" That has always hit me as an emotional moment that has never made me cry.

[52:09] Shaina Taub: Yeah.

[52:10] Ato Blankson-Wood: It was interesting. Lynn Ahrens was talking about that at the BMI workshop. It just happened to have her moderating, right, probably a week after that. And she brought that up about seeing the show and for someone who wrote the show to know the show, to actually also have that experience of the difference between pre and post, yeah, election night. It's interesting. I mean, art—and I went in thinking that the song "Back to Before" always makes me cry, right? And I think especially since we've lost Marin Mazzie, who originated the role.

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