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[0:00] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Hello and welcome to the Drama Book Show. My name is Mark-Eugene Garcia. Today on the Drama Book Show we explore the transformative power of theatre with playwright, educator, and director Richard Hoehler. Drawing from his book ACTING OUT! How a Prison Theatre Workshop Broke Free, Richard shares the remarkable story of bringing acting and writing workshops inside correctional facilities and the profound impact those experiences had on the men who participated and on his own life. Over the course of more than three decades working with incarcerated and formerly incarcerated individuals, Richard discovered how theatre can create connection, foster empathy, and offer a rare space for self-expression in places where humanity is often overlooked.

We discuss the challenges and the rewards of this work, the creation of the ACTING OUT! Company, and why storytelling remains one of the most powerful tools for personal transformation. And later in the episode, you'll also hear a live performance from members of the ACTING OUT! Company. Here's Richard Hoehler at the show.

[1:48] Richard Hoehler: I'm not going to show my emotions and stuff. When I get as real as I can get, people don't trash me or talk shit. They clap and laugh and tell me I'm good at this stuff. Ain't nobody ever told me I was good at nothing before. Not in real life. I mean, I don't even know what real life is sometimes. Everybody trying to be who they think people want them to be. But you want to know something? This stuff? It ain't just noise, man. It's all true. When it comes from in the head, it's all true. And that's why I want to act. To act it out. Tell the truth. Even though it's scary as hell. You know, a lot of people are scared too. You know, everybody's scared for nobody to see it. But out here, on this stage, we do say it. And we say it loud enough for everyone to hear. So that we all know that we in this together. That we enough. That I'm enough. Just me. Just this.

[3:12] Richard Hoehler: It wasn't like I was broke. It's just that my mother was kind of frugal and my father was cheap. Anyway, I wanted a bicycle. And I was pressuring them. But they wouldn't budge. I don't remember how old I was, but it was my birthday. And it was a block party the same day. So it was like anybody would celebrate my birthday even if they didn't know it. So we're outside playing and a friend of mine says, yo, look. I turn and coming up Fifth Avenue, it's my father. On a bicycle with a big ribbon on it. He's drunk as a skunk as ever. But he'd get me that bike. It was a real pleasant memory of him. On top of a whole lot of unpleasant ones. I got into gymnastics when I was five years old. We were an extremely poor family and back then it was one of the sports you didn't have to pay for in school.

It gave me something to look forward to after school and on the weekends. I got really good. We would have shows once a month, but no one was ever there to watch me because both of my parents were incarcerated and my grandmother just kind of wasn't interested. When I was nine, the state put me in foster care. They had gymnastics in a new school, but it was no longer free. Foster care wouldn't pay for it. I remember it just kind of faded out. When I got placed in a shelter for kids, I wanted to show off and do a backflip. But I got nervous and I fell on my head. I never did another flip again. When I was 12, my father put a gun in my hand, drove me around, told me I was his bodyguard. Twelve years old, giving me a gun. Worst thing he could do. Wanted me to think that I was a gangster. I wanted everybody else to think that too. That man made me a killer.

[5:24] Richard Hoehler: When I was eight and my brother was nine and a half, we were living with our father, but then he went to jail. Since no one knew what happened, my brother and I lived in the apartment by ourselves, and we would be responsible for getting up and going to school on our own. We couldn't go outside and play because we were too worried that people would ask where my dad was and then they'd find out. So it was just home and school and home and school every day. I remember sitting on the porch and thinking, like, you know, this is not fair. This is not how my childhood should be. My father was also a womanizer, and he beat my mother, beat me too. He'd be in the room hitting her, and I'd be in my room covering my ears instead of going out there trying to do something.

But he was a big guy. Coming home one day, he was yelling and screaming at my mother, and we both knew what was going to happen once we got upstairs. I wanted to kill him, literally. And that day, if he would have hit her, I would have killed him. But my mother squeezed my hand, like telling me not to. It was the first time she ever squeezed my hand like that. Like, don't.

[6:48] Richard Hoehler: When I was in lockup, I remember feeling like I was always protected by my dad, no matter what. It was ironic because when I would get in trouble, they would call my dad at his facility, and he would parent me from prison to prison. He committed suicide three years ago. He had just gotten released, and I'm still like, I'm still very bothered by that. After my first bid, when I came home, I went to visit him a few times. He was getting old and feeble. I thought about kicking his ass, because I knew there was no way he could take me. No fucking way. I'm 27 years old, just come home from two years of pumping iron, and he could hardly walk. I thought about dogging his ass. I sit on the bed and I talk to him sometimes about how I wasn't ready for him to not be around, and I always say the same thing.

I hope you feel better now. But you know what I did? I went and watched him, took care of him, and met him, like a dutiful fucking son. The man wasn't even my father. My father experienced a lot of pain in his life, and even though he's gone, my dad will always, always be my hero.

[8:23] Richard Hoehler: APPLAUSE

[8:33] Richard Hoehler: We're all here in Arlington this month. That's not Miami. What other reason would you be here? Why you show up every two years to make sure I stay in this hellhole?

[8:58] Richard Hoehler: Ty. May I call you Ty? Please, sit down. No, I don't want to sit. I apologized 12 years ago when it happened, and at every single hearing since. I've apologized so many times to so many people in so many ways, but I don't even think my own mother can ever forgive me for what I did. And no matter how many times I say I'm sorry, how truly sorry I really am, that won't bring your daughter back. Mary Ann. Her name was Mary Ann. Why won't anyone... I'm sorry. It's just that no one in my family will even say her name anymore. I guess it's easier to act if she never existed, but I can't do that. I know you hate me for what I did. What I did was horrible. Don't you think I realize that? Don't you know that every day in this place reminds me of that?

Every day. Every hour of every day. Every time there's a head count, or an inspection, or a guard looks at me like I'm a piece of shit. Every day, I walk on that same beat-up road to work, or the mess hall, or back to my cell. I look up at that same dirt sticking on the ceiling above my bed, and I think about it. I was young, and stupid, and high on all kinds of stuff. I don't even remember getting in the car. I don't remember seeing nobody. I don't remember anything. But I told you that. I told everyone that. I never would have hurt nobody if I wasn't so fucked up. I know that's not an excuse, but it's the truth. I don't know what else I can say. Please.

[10:55] Richard Hoehler: So, how are you doing?

[10:58] Unknown speaker: What do you mean?

[11:00] Unknown speaker: You said you had a job. What do you do?

[11:02] Unknown speaker: I work in the library.

[11:03] Unknown speaker: Get to read?

[11:04] Unknown speaker: Yeah. I'm taking a class. A college class.

[11:07] Unknown speaker: Which one?

[11:08] Unknown speaker: World Lit.

[11:09] Unknown speaker: What writers do they have you?

[11:11] Unknown speaker: Right now we're reading Tolstoy.

[11:13] Unknown speaker: War and Peace.

[11:14] Unknown speaker: No, The Kingdom of God is Within You.

[11:16] Unknown speaker: Really? That's impressive. Not many schools teach that book.

[11:20] Unknown speaker: I know. My prof said it was banned when it first came out.

[11:23] Unknown speaker: Big time.

[11:24] Unknown speaker: It's pretty fierce.

[11:25] Unknown speaker: I think it's one of the most important books ever written.

[11:29] Unknown speaker: There is one thing, and only one thing, that is granted to you to be free in life, all else being beyond your power. That is to recognize and profess the truth.

[11:37] Unknown speaker: Wow. You know your stuff.

[11:40] Unknown speaker: It's required for a course I teach.

[11:45] Unknown speaker: So you're a...

[11:46] Unknown speaker: Yeah.

[11:49] Unknown speaker: But I don't understand why you're here.

[11:56] Unknown speaker: I almost killed someone.

[11:58] Unknown speaker: What?

[12:00] Unknown speaker: A couple weeks ago.

[12:02] Unknown speaker: A 13-year-old boy on a skateboard.

[12:05] Unknown speaker: I was drunk.

[12:07] Unknown speaker: I looked up and there he was right in front of me.

[12:09] Unknown speaker: I watched him go over the hood of my car in slow motion like in a movie. I couldn't believe it was happening. He was unconscious for five hours.

[12:21] Unknown speaker: The longest five hours of my life.

[12:24] Unknown speaker: But he...

[12:26] Unknown speaker: Pulled through. Broken wrists, scrapes and bruises, but he's going to be okay.

[12:30] Unknown speaker: Thank God.

[12:32] Unknown speaker: Charges are pending.

[12:35] Unknown speaker: My license.

[12:37] Unknown speaker: Oh, you know. It was after they handcuffed me, read me my rights, when the officer was guiding my head into the squad car that I thought about you.

[12:48] Unknown speaker: Me?

[12:50] Unknown speaker: What's insane is... That I was drunker than that before. But I never got caught. Driving around. In a rage. Trying to control. My anger and resentment. And fear. And never even thinking about what could happen. What did happen. What did happen. I was as out of control as you were when you slammed into her car. I could have killed someone else's child the way you... I could have. It was only luck that made the difference in what we did. Luck.

[13:24] Unknown speaker: Ty. I'm... I'm here to...

[13:34] Unknown speaker: Please forgive me.

[13:36] Unknown speaker: Forgive?

[13:38] Unknown speaker: For blaming you. For hating you. I could be sitting where you are right now. Living where you are right now. I know you've heard me say this so many times before. But I am so truly, truly sorry about your... About Mary Ann. You don't know how comforting it is to hear her name. I need to hear it. To say it. I need to talk about her. Tell people who she was. What she was really like. That she was really here. And that she was mine. I need that now more than ever. I won't be at the hearing next month. I won't stand in your way. I've written the board a letter. I hope they see that you're... A good man who made a terrible mistake. You deserve another chance. I wish you well.

[14:53] Unknown speaker: Tell me.

[14:56] Unknown speaker: What?

[14:57] Unknown speaker: Tell me about Mary Ann.

[14:59] Unknown speaker: I really want to know.

[15:16] Richard Hoehler: Thank you. Good evening, everyone. That was Fox Valentin. Shy Green. Ron Horton. And Flo Gonzalez. Four actors of whom I'm very, very proud. And have done wonderful work. Both inside and outside. And continue to get better and better. We can talk in the little questions. We can get into specifics. Okay. I just want to read a little bit from this book. And I've just got four short little things here I'd like to do. And the first is just sort of a little glimpse into the classroom. During an exercise that we were doing. Occasionally a correctional officer walks by the door. Stops and peers through the small plate glass window. But for the most part, we are left on our own. The absence of hands-on prison supervision helps create a neutral and safe space where the men can drop their defenses and delve deeper and deeper into the work.

A man stands on an X in the center of the room. I leave the circle and walk toward him. I stop, look him in the eye, and say, hello. He has been instructed not to respond. Simply to acknowledge that he has been recognized. He leaves and I take the X. The next man walks in, stops, looks over my head, and says, sup. I stop the exercise and tell him the line is hello. He rolls his eyes to heaven. Don't nobody say hello in this place. That's the line. What about yo? The exercise is called hello, not yo. When you do a play, you can't change the lines. And look at me, not down the block. He pans around the room with the other men, shrugs his shoulders, and tries again. He walks back in and really looks at me this time.

Hello. I nod and leave the center as he takes the X. We continue around the circle until everyone has a chance. Central to my actor training, hello is a diagnostic tool that not only assesses everyone quickly and accurately, but lays a firm foundation for the scenes and plays that follow. It establishes a deep connection between scene partners, encouraging intimacy, trust, and the willingness to put instincts ahead of ideas. Although direct and extended eye contact is undesirable, even dangerous in prison, it is requisite for the exercise to work. The benefits far outweigh the risks in developing acting technique, and in the isolating and hostile environment in which the inmates live, hello is powerful and poignant in a fundamental way. They are acknowledged. Seen.

[18:12] Richard Hoehler: This is my friend David Rothenberg. This is one of his favorite stories. During tech rehearsals, there was a huge snowstorm. This is our second show called Inside Out. I'm rarely deterred by weather. Having lived in western Michigan, a snow belt for five years, I'm much like the proverbial postal service when it comes to getting to rehearsal and so on. And so on the day of the storm, I set off to the prison with plenty of time to spare. Unplowed roads and timid drivers clogged the way, and the usual 30-minute drive from the cottage where I was staying that night took almost two hours. At the gate, the guard was so flabbergasted that I showed up in the storm that he waved me through without checking my ID or documenting my place.

All the time I was being processed in the arsenal and riding in the van to the program area, I anticipated how blown away everyone would be that I made the trek. As we pulled up to building 112, I saw Hector standing outside, smoking a cigarette and making notes on his clipboard. I jumped out of the van with a flare, ready to receive my hero's welcome. He looked up stoically and grunted, You're late.

[19:29] Richard Hoehler: We did a show a couple years ago, a bunch of years ago, called Fathers and Sons. I had originally done this on Theater Row and then I adapted it for 14 men. And there was something about it because that subject matter in prison is just, they have a big Mother's Day celebration but never a Father's Day celebration. There was something about giving light to this that opened everybody up in a weird sort of way. And we had this very strange thing occur that I wanted to tell you about. The most unexpected act of goodwill occurs on the last evening of the run during dinner break. Nana, one of the tougher officers at Farris Park, is assigned to the gym for the show. Small and callous, she appears to be holding on to the job well past retirement age.

The men are alternately amused and enraged by her. She reminds me of an urban version of Mammy Yoakum from the Little Abner comic strips. Whenever Nana works Building 112 on Friday nights, she scrutinizes my ID as if it might be fake and asks for the umpteenth time where I am from and when I am leaving. She often pulls men out in the middle of my class to berate them for wearing hats or neglecting to pick up their IDs on time. Our worst collision occurs when I step outside the building one evening to remind an actor on his way to mosque about rehearsal later that evening. She tears out of 112, rips into me on the pavement for not having an official escort, and reports me to the lieutenant who later pulls me out of 112 to finish what she started.

Whenever I see Nana sitting behind the desk on Friday evening, I know it won't go well. For the last performance, we receive permission to have pizza brought in for dinner. There is a misunderstanding when the pizzas are ordered and we received several extra pies. When an announcement is made about the surplus, I notice Nana circling the stack of boxes. I grumble under my breath, don't even think about it. But again, a mysterious aura of goodwill pervades, and something shifts. Despite the grief she has always given me and my actors, I undig my heels, walk over to her station, and extend an olive branch. Would you like a slice? She doesn't break character. No, no, I don't need nothing. I force a smile.

Well, if you change your mind, you're welcome. She takes two slices. From then on, I will never have an issue with her. She even comes to the rescue during that night's performance when our camera person's equipment malfunctions, rushing over and silently escorting the filmmaker to a side room so she can reconstitute the device, and then walking her back to the gym. The men say they had never seen anything like it. Was it the power of the play? Was it my gesture? Was it the pizza? It no longer seems important why it happened, only that it did.

[22:32] Richard Hoehler: And this is a rough one, so bear with me. A student recently asked me when I realized just what prison was. I know exactly when. It involved the misunderstanding of a simple word. During the showdown run, the superintendent walked into the gym before the family performance and told the men that after the show, the families would be escorted through the side door while the men remained on stage. As soon as she left, there was an outcry. They begged me to intercede so that they could have time with their loved ones. I did so, fully expecting to be rebuffed. I was unprepared for her reply. Fine, tell them it's a visit. I bounded back into the gym, bearing what I thought was incredibly good news, only to receive glum nods as the men walked away.

After the show, after the tears and laughter and hugs and hollers, after everyone basked in the light the men shone on them for 90 minutes, and after the families exited through the side door, I noticed my actors heading over to the blue room instead of the main entrance. I asked one of the guards what was going on, and he nodded indifferently. Strip search, required after a visit. A visit. That explained their benign response to what I thought was good news. That was what was exacted from months of hard work and fierce loyalty to the project and each other. That's what they got for giving brilliant and inspiring performances before a spellbound audience. Stripped naked and searched in the most humiliating and invasive way.

A line from the box crashed through my brain. They'd taken everything else, my freedom, my identity, and my dignity, every time they'd look up my asshole after a visit from my mama. Watching the men line up, holding their coats and bags as they stared resigning at the floor was shattering. And yes, for the first time I had some small idea what prison is. The end of a road to nowhere in an incomprehensible world. An impossible place where you are punished for being bad and good. My outrage and sadness was further compounded by knowing these men willingly underwent the degradation of a strip search for hugs and kisses and congratulations. Didn't their courage and accountability demonstrate a real transformation?

Shouldn't the work they do and the sacrifices they make bring redemption screaming down from the heavens, or at the very least, offer a reprieve? Sometimes, while waiting for the van that takes me to class, I wander around the count room reading posted signs about meetings and events for the staff. The Hibernian potluck supper, company picnics, retirement parties, jubilees. It all seems so normal, so day to day. Detaining and monitoring the lives of others is just a job. There is a suggestion box mounted to the wall outside the dispatcher's office and I'm always at a loss as to what anyone might suggest. Conversely, I cannot imagine there being enough room in the box for the recommendations the men in green would make, were they allowed to make them.

Every December, a small artificial Christmas tree is erected in the count room. Watching inmates assigned to the maintenance crew earnestly trim the tree with plastic ornaments and limp garland elicits an involuntary response to either laugh or cry. Thank you.

[26:14] Richard Hoehler: So now I'm going to have my actors come out here and join us and we will have some questions or answers or whatever you feel like. Thank you.

[26:51] Richard Hoehler: Thank you very much for coming today. Thank you all for bringing those wonderful performances. So Richard, I want to start out. In the book, you detail a little bit how you discovered theater in the first place. Can you talk to us just a little bit about how you got into the professional theater before this specific type of reform that you were working on?

[27:25] Richard Hoehler: Well, I started doing theater when I was 14. I directed my first play and I had third graders because they were the only people who listened to me at 14. And I continued to direct and act all through high school, went to college, trained there. And then when I came to New York and trained professionally, I found out that everything I learned in college was pretty useless and I had to start all over again and really learn how to be an actor and then start to work. And I've always taught, always, always, right from the beginning. I've always taught even when I didn't get paid for it. It's something that I just love to do and so I will always do. And I don't know, I stayed alive and now I'm here. And like I mentioned, I worked with at-risk youth for many years in South Bronx, Harlem, East New York. And I just find the energy and the talent there to be off the charts.

[28:24] Richard Hoehler: Why don't you take this? We can do handhelds. Why don't you take this microphone just to make sure that everyone hears it and that we get it for the podcast as well. And we can pass the microphone around as we need. Yeah, so that's it. And then I went from there to I was asked to lead a one-off workshop up at Otisville just one time, and I went up there and did it. And it was amazing and I thought that was it. And then I went home and a couple months later they called and said, they want you to come back. I said, that's it, one more time, that's it. I cannot afford to do this for no money. And 15 years later, you know, eight full productions later, and then we formed The Outside Company, which is the most, to me, in the book the most amazing story that it was a pipe dream that we could continue this work afterward. It's not a pipe dream, as you can see. It's quite real.

[29:17] Richard Hoehler: So how did the program grow on the inside first over those 15 years?

[29:28] Richard Hoehler: Well, it's by being persistent and by, I mean, you are, everything is working against you. You've got a few people that help you and most of the other people try to not help you, like on purpose. And so it's being persistent, but also where it came from was the company, was from the actors that I worked with. I needed them. We needed to work together on this thing. I was the leader, but we were the company. And that's how it persisted and that's why it also was able to exist on the outside. Like none of these folks were together in there. Did you know if I know? So, I mean, but like, but there is this camaraderie. There's this company feeling because we developed that on the inside and we developed it, you know, even during the pandemic, you know, and we met Chai.

I mean, I didn't meet Chai in person for like three years or something. It was crazy. So, but there's this thing that develops when you, it all starts with hello, when you look into somebody's eyes and really connect and really, really let them see you and really see them. To me, that's the heart of great acting.

[30:35] Richard Hoehler: So, now talk to us about what it took to create the company on the outside and what the process is for who wants to be a part of it.

[30:44] Richard Hoehler: A lot of bagels and coffee, right? Yeah. I lured everybody in with food. No, we used to meet weekly. We met weekly at HB Studio. That was without HB, we would not be here. I mean, they took us under their wing, gave us a space, gave us a space to be. But we started in January of 2020. We all know what happened in March of 2020. But we continued online, did four full productions online that almost killed me. But, you know, but like all this adversity in the prison, during the pandemic, that's what made this such a cohesive group. Because there's something that we, that we love more than the problems. And it's like what I love about my acting. We love theater. Like when I find theater, you know what it's like to find theater?

Oh, my God, theater people. They're like my people, you know? And I have kids. I work at City College. And when you find it, it's, oh, a theater kid. You know what I mean? And they're like 19 and they're like insane like we are. Do you know what I mean? Like they got to do it. I found the theater people in prison and I found them out there.

[31:48] Richard Hoehler: Who here, this is your first time here at the Drama Bookshop? Because we get a lot of that. Exactly what you're saying. We get a lot of people here who are maybe tourists from places where there's not a large theater community. And they walk in and they find each other. And they, you know, maybe they're the only theater kid at their high school and all of a sudden there's all of, you know, I mean us, the staff, and all of these other people to talk about their favorite shows and everyone knows it. So, yes, we luckily here at the Drama Bookshop, and please do come back during our opening hours for those of you for whom this is your first time and peruse. We get to see that on the daily here. Does anybody here have any questions? Ask my actors too. For the actors as well about the creation of the program, about the book?

[32:39] Unknown speaker: Yes. Yeah, well, I guess my question, and I've wanted to know this for a long time, is I remember when I started doing theater, like trying to talk to my family about it and how weird that conversation is, you know? And so I wonder for you, like while you're in there or even being out, what is it like to discover that you like this theater thing? And then what is it like to be a theater kid or a theater person in that environment? And then now that you're outside, like how do you explain to your family that you're an actor? Like how is it inside and how is it out here?

[33:24] Unknown speaker: And I'm still having a hard time explaining it to my family. And I wonder how you explain it to yours.

[33:31] Unknown speaker: Well, first of all, shouldn't you ask Stephen?

[33:39] Unknown speaker: I got into the theater, the thought of being in theater when I was a kid. I watched TV. You know, I was a TV kid. My mother used to have her friends come over or some family members come over, and she'd call me out of the room and ask me to perform, do something. Ronald, come here. Do Ed Sullivan. And I, oh, it's a really big show. So that's where it came. On the inside, I just did it. You know, I didn't have to explain it to anybody, you know, because, you know, excuse my language, I was like, I don't give a fuck what you feel. This is what I'm doing, you know. My family is all with it. You know, they support me in it and everything. So I just jumped into theater because I'm a theater kid by heart.

[34:36] Unknown speaker: A microphone. A standing theater kid's microphone. All right. To me, it was a different experience because I got referred to from my cousins, like, hey, man, you should go ahead and do this play. At first, I was like, no, I don't want to do that. I don't want to sing on stage. That's what I thought that was, right. Until I actually heard about the production, how it went. Everybody was going crazy. Man, this was good. And in my mind, I said, I should have just tried it, right. But when I did it, nobody judged me. I really didn't care like he said. I don't care. You got one life to live. Just live it. And coming out, I was a little bit, should I do it because I'm a skateboarder. But he just said, hey, I got a show for you. Let's go. I need my Ben. I was like, all right. Let's go. And since then, you know, my family supports it. As you can see, they're both here. My mother-in-law, my sister-in-law. Yeah, it's all about love, you know. That one life.

[35:38] Unknown speaker: I don't know. For me, I entered prison when I was 16 years old. I ended up doing 20 years in prison. Theater, for me, gave me the ability to hear my voice because I used to do a lot of shoot time in the box. It's like when you're 23 hours locked down, you only get one hour out yourself, right. And I did this for months and months. That turned into years. So I lost my voice. I didn't have people to talk to or to converse with. So when I got into prison where they was offering theater, I was like, nah, that's not for me, right. As far as playing it to my family, there was the least of my worries. It was explaining it to the guys in the yard that's lifting out weights and big muscles and stuff like that.

I know some tough people, you know. And it was just explaining it to them like, I'm not going to the yard tonight. I'm going to this theater class. And they're like, hmm, you got to watch this guy. But it really changed my life. It gives me an opportunity to meet great people. I wouldn't have met none of y'all tonight if it wasn't for theater. So something that's a very positive energy in my life. And I just keep running with it. And this is why I decided to join Rich on the outside world because, you know, he's the man.

[37:21] Unknown speaker: Yeah. We heard from everybody except Shafi. Purposely.

[37:31] Unknown speaker: Okay, so we did a show called Kid Stuff that we all wrote our own scenes for. And in the show I shared that as a child I wanted to be a radio personality. That was my dream. I talk. I'm a talker. It's my favorite thing to do in the world. I'm very passionate about it. It may not seem that way now, but I love to talk. So when I got a criminal record, I no longer wanted to be in the spotlight. I didn't want to be seen. I didn't want people to know me. I didn't want people to ask me questions. So it was finding acting out that gave me the courage to relive those dreams. To your actual question, I'm probably the only person here that always forgets to invite people. I don't even know if my family knows that I do theater.

Because I'm so into it that I only focus on coming, learning the lines, and all the things that come with it. And then when the show starts, I'm like, I didn't invite anyone. So I don't even know if people know. And then I had a very close friend who actually does work in ‑‑ she's a director. And then I said to her, oh, I have a show tomorrow if you want to come. And she's like, what's it about? And I was like, oh, it's theater. And she's like, shy, you do theater? And I was like, yeah, kind of. And then she's like, I said, do you want to come? And she's like, of course I want to come. And then she came and she's like, what? So she's like, every show, tell me about it. I've never told her again. I just keep forgetting every single time. So, yeah, for me, I probably should start telling them. Now that she rang it up.

[39:12] Unknown speaker: To piggyback off of that, what is all of your experiences, what you've seen, either in terms of people who discover theater and discover a passion for it through the classes, through the workshops, or people who come in already with a passion for performing and need the outlet and seek that out? Do you see kind of a mix of all of that?

[39:45] Richard Hoehler: I don't ask a lot of questions, you know, for obvious reasons. And so anybody is welcome, especially on the inside. Anybody who's interested is welcome. I always find a role for somebody. I've had people who could not speak English at all. I found a role for them. I had people who had serious kind of OCD problems, things like that. We found a role for them. Oh, that's the beautiful thing about the theater. How many millions of plays there are and characters. And you just find it. And the most important thing is the desire to do it. And I do believe everybody's got an actor in them. You've just got to find it. And once that desire is there, then they're saying, okay, I'm willing to find that actor. And so it doesn't matter to me whether they've got experience, no experience, nothing, you know.

[40:42] Unknown speaker: Yeah. I have a son. He's 24, and he's a theater kid. He loves it. He's been in all high school plays, college. Unfortunately, you know, pandemic was hard on him. He didn't graduate. And he's kind of lost that love that he had for it. He's having a hard time with it. You know, he's in North Carolina right now. And there's small theaters there, but he's trying to maintain, you know, his bills, and he's living with his fraternity brother. And so that takes a lot of presence over, you know, his time. What would you recommend for somebody like him, where he's at, how to start to get that back for him to be able to start theater there? Because him moving here now, he doesn't think about it just because it's so expensive.

And he's like, I don't want to live with my mama. You know, I'm a grown man. But I know if he was to come out, it would be more of a chance for him to get into it. He's not, you know, he's a high school graduate. I want him to go back to school and get his degree. But, you know, I don't think he's going to anytime soon. I don't know. I pray for it. But what would you recommend for him to do out there and, you know, for him to kind of get it back? Because I know he's missing it.

[42:06] Richard Hoehler: Yeah. I mean, I would just, I've got one of my actors, Louis Moran, did 19 years and then was on the day that he was released from prison, was deported to Mexico to a town that he didn't even know. Nobody. He found a great love for theater. He's an incredible actor. And, you know, he started to lose his, you know. So we talked about him studying a little bit online, you know, acting. But the main thing that turned him around, I said, is there a school in your town? Are there kids there? Yeah. All right. Here's some scripts. You know what I mean? Like, here's some things. Like, just go in there and start doing theater. That's how I started. You know, go in and start doing some theater, you know, where you're making the theater.

Don't wait for the opportunity to come. You make it. And find somebody who will listen to you. Do you know what I mean? And I guarantee you that that is like, to me, that's the most active way, the most positive way for him to rekindle that love that he clearly has.

[43:05] Unknown speaker: Right. You know what I mean? So, like I said, the waiting for it to happen is not good. Making it happen, that's, you know. So I would encourage him. Look, there's schools everywhere. There's kids everywhere. You know what I mean? No matter where.

[43:21] Unknown speaker: Yeah. All right. Sure.

[43:24] Unknown speaker: So. Yeah. What's your favorite show or play?

[43:33] Unknown speaker: Just repeat that. What's your favorite play that you have done with the company?

[43:37] Richard Hoehler: Well, it's like, you know, children. We cannot choose. You know, I mean, there's so many. I mean, we recently did. I'll have to just talk about the most. Well, Kid Stuff was a great favorite of mine because it involved stories. And the pieces that Shai and Ron did was from Kid Stuff. And Ron wrote his piece. Shai wrote her piece. So those original pieces and great performances. And the whole show was filled with that. We had an incident that occurred. We were talking about it upstairs where Fox. I met Fox when he first got out. I met his daughter was in an activity play. She was a little kid. And what was it? Two years ago, we did a remount of Kid Stuff at HB Studio. And Fox was in the play.

And his daughter was in the play. It was just incredible. So things like that. The most recent thing we just did was. Oh, yeah. And I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yes. And Shai's son was in it. Oh, God. Okay. And Ludd's nephews were in it. And, you know. We had. I brought in six kids. And we. So, you know. Okay. Sorry about that. You know. Okay. We just did the Odets Project. Which all my actors. Apparently, there's some kind of group chat. Where they're all screaming about they want to do it again. They want to do it again. Now, Clifford Odets is my hands down favorite playwright. And it's going to be close to like 100 years ago that he wrote some of these plays. If you heard these actors do them.

You would be stunned. It sounds like it was written just yesterday. And during the process, I got to get to know Walt Odets. Clifford Odets' son. Who was very helpful in us being able to get the rights. Because I pulled scenes and monologues from five early plays. Something that like the agent would probably go screaming down the street. But Walt was like, listen. Let them do it. You know. Blah, blah, blah. And we paid the royalties. And it was. That was. For me, it was really a mountaintop experience. To love a playwright so much. To love the acting work that you see so much. And to put that together. It's hard to get better than that.

[45:35] Unknown speaker: One of the actors is an audience. Yes. The one that turned around and acted like he wasn't there. Laughter.

[45:44] Unknown speaker: What do you find. Oh, did we have another question?

[45:47] Unknown speaker: Yes. Let's take care.

[45:50] Unknown speaker: So you mentioned starting with the hello exercise. Were there any other exercises or opportunities that you found were helpful to draw on in a certain way? That might have been skeptical?

[45:59] Richard Hoehler: Yes. Yeah. And by the way, hello is just the first time. The dialogue changes. And it gets a back and forth. And sometimes back and forth. And back and forth. You know. It really develops. I do a lot of rhythmic exercises. And there's this one thing we call the ripple. Which you know. It's a clapping thing. They all know how to do it. And it's just to get out of your body and into your head. And a lot of times. Like when I was in the prison. The first time I did it. There was like. Oh, this shit is like kindergarten. You know. And then the day that we were doing a show. They were like Rich. Can we do the ripple? Because I found that what he did was. It sort of disarmed them. They got out of their head.

They got into their bodies. And you know. So I tried to do as many exercises like that. Where you're not thinking. You know. You're really working. You know. I keep telling them. You know. There's more energy in your whole body than there is in this little piece of gray matter. So those are the kind of exercises. That I focus on in the beginning. And I do a lot of improv. But I do a lot of script work. I just think script work is so important. Especially a lot of. The kids that I work with all the years. The reading. It was really challenging. And stuff like that. So it's so empowering. To be able to master a script. Master a scene. And know that you got the words. And there's a reason to want to read now.

Because those are your lines. And you're going to sound really good. When you got them right. You know what I mean. So it's finding the stuff. That empowers the actor. But is also great quality material. You know. I always tell them. It's this. You know.

[47:32] Richard Hoehler: So just to close out. Because I know that we have a song as well. This is kind of for everyone. What do you feel is the difference between doing theater on the inside and doing theater on the outside? Whoever wants to answer.

[47:48] Unknown speaker: You don't need no permission from a CO. You can just call them whenever you want. Hey come here. You know. There's no dress code like this. There's no den numbers on you. It's beautiful.

[48:05] Unknown speaker: So I did not do theater on the inside. The program that Rich does is only for the men. And I was far released anyway. But one of the things that did happen was. Again my criminal record has always been. A major insecurity for me. And when we were going into the prison. Otisville to do the show. We all had to fill out our backgrounds. And here I am thinking like. Well you know. What's the worst that can happen. They know who I am. And what we do. Right. I got denied. They wouldn't even let me in. And it was like. The biggest heartbreak all over again. Because I'm like. You know. Here I am thinking. This is the one time. That I don't have to be embarrassed about my record. And they destroyed me. But so yeah. So I never did it in the theater. But it just. To your point. The rules are still ridiculous. They're still crazy. It still doesn't make any sense. And the prison system is not geared to make you successful. And that's just proof of that.

[49:07] Unknown speaker: I never did anything inside with Richards. But I was at another facility. Where I was involved with their theater group. And the difference that they can do. From out there and here. Is whatever I said is. The chances of you getting strip searched. You know. They might just get the notion. The sergeant might say. We got a hurt word. That somebody slipped somebody something. You know. Just to make trouble. Sometimes they just want to make trouble. So it was different out there. And there. And then out here. For that reason. But out here. I wouldn't do. My act. I wouldn't lend. Sell. Sign. My acting skills with anybody but Richards. That's major.

[50:01] Unknown speaker: If you want. Let me try. Let me try. All you got to say is that shit is official. That shit is official. And I just want to see the biggest difference for me would be. You know. It could get you out of a lot of boring places like your cell. Sometimes people just want to join something. You know. To get some activity going. But out here is a choice. I mean that we make. To. You know. To do something. You know. You know. To. Travel from New Jersey. Where I'm from. Where I recently moved. So I travel from New Jersey. Park my car in the city. To get on a train. To get here. On time. So I think that you know. Just. Wanted this. To make a difference for me.

[51:30] Unknown speaker: Why don't we set these up for. Apple music. And Spotify. Give me one.

[51:38] Unknown speaker: All right. Thank you. I just. Occasionally in the prison. Every once in a while. When we after we do a show or something. We'd have a cast party or something. I bring over my guitar and I would sing. And I always just sang covers. Because that's all I did. I wrote one song 50 years ago. And you know. Never did anything since then. And so I was there one day. Somebody said well you still remember that song you wrote 50 years ago. I said oh yeah. So I played it. You only sing covers. I says yeah. Because you know what you do when you sing covers right. And I says what. He goes you're covering. And this is you know. And these are my actors who I'm telling to open up. And show us who you are. And all this kind of stuff.

So we put it in my mind. Like well maybe I can see if I can write another song. So the parole summit was coming up. I was working with Terrence over there on the parole summit. And I was asked to make a speech. And perform. Especially people who had this incredible transformation. Who are doing all this kind of stuff. And I wrote three different speeches. And none of them did it. I says it just doesn't work. And I thought all of a sudden. This one comes in my mind. I said maybe it's a song. So I wrote this song. And it's come to mean more than just. You know a parole summit. It's kind of for anybody. Who's ever made a mistake. And would like to sort of get past that. It's called give me one more chance.

[53:21] Richard Hoehler: Give me one more chance. To try and make it right. Give me one more go. Let me see the light. Let me see the light. I don't know where I'm going. But I know where I've been. Give me one more chance. To wipe away my sin. Give me one more song. Give me one more poem. Give me one more poem. Let me speak straight from my heart. I want to go home. This ain't no smoking mirror. This ain't no shell. Give me one more chance. To show you who I am. Days and months. And years go by. I try and try. And try and try. But I. Can't erase my youth. Undo my crime. I paid the price. And lost my prime. I took the hits. I done my time. I learned there's so much more. That I can give. So give me one more chance. Before my mama's time to go.

Give me one more chance. To watch my child grow. I've prayed and I've repented. I looked inside. Give me one more chance. To put aside my pride. Give me one more smile. Give me one more tear. Let me feel just what I feel. I want to face my fear. I want to face my fear. The truth's what sustains me. And sets me free. Give me one more chance. To live and love and be. Give me one more chance. Give me one more chance.

[56:15] Richard Hoehler: Thank you. Thank you. Once more, help me in thanking Richard Hoehler and this wonderful cast of actors.

[56:35] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And we're back. Thank you for watching this episode of the Drama Book Show Podcast. We'd like to thank Richard Hoehler and the members of The Acting Out Company for sharing their stories, their work, and their commitment to using theatre as a force for connection and change. Until next time, keep reading, keep creating, and remember to follow us on Instagram at Dramabookshowpodcasts. Remember to follow us on Eventbrite at Dramabookshop. And know that all the books we talk about can be found here at the bookshop, and so can we. And we will see you at the bookshop. Bye.