This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Welcome to the Drama Book Show! My name is Mark-Eugene Garcia.

[0:21] David Rigano: My name is David Rigano.

[0:23] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And we're just hanging out eating ice cream after hours at the bookshop.

[0:28] David Rigano: We are eating Mark's birthday ice cream.

[0:31] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yes, from June. On my birthday, I jokingly told my boss that I like a certain flavor of ice cream in our closing email, and Riley, one of the managers, also chimed in on that, that she also likes that ice cream.

[0:44] David Rigano: So, our boss, Scott-

[0:46] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Three quarts of it.

[0:47] David Rigano: Yeah, he Uber-eatsed, if that's a verb, three quarts of mint chocolate chip ice cream to the store, to which I had maybe a spoonful at the end of the day, and it's been in the freezer.

[0:59] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah, I've been slowly making dents on lunch breaks. I'll get one of the little plastic cups that we have at the water cooler, and I'll just have a little plastic cup's worth of mint chocolate chip, and one of the quarts is now empty.

[1:12] David Rigano: Yeah, but we still have two quarts, and we opened one today, and so we're having a little bit of ice cream, not Coquito-like last time. There's a little bit of a sugar rush and a sugar high, but there is no alcohol involved in tonight's episode of the Drama Book Show.

[1:27] Mark-Eugene Garcia: A little Coquito, poured over this ice cream.

[1:30] David Rigano: Yeah, that would be good, too.

[1:31] Mark-Eugene Garcia: It'd be great.

[1:32] David Rigano: Yeah, we're almost at the season. It's starting to cool down outside.

[1:35] Mark-Eugene Garcia: You know what I've been enjoying at the end of my nights?

[1:37] David Rigano: What's that?

[1:38] Mark-Eugene Garcia: My cousin got married in July, and she had- one of the little party favors from her wedding was bottles of homemade limoncello.

[1:49] David Rigano: Oh, I love that. Someone did that for my wedding, too.

[1:55] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And so I've had the bottle in my fridge, and I'm just doing- I'm just sipping, slowly sipping, a shot glass's worth every night.

[2:03] David Rigano: See, I didn't- okay, I'd never had limoncello before, and so I just thought it was a drink, and so I poured a big old cup of it, and I took a swig, and that- yeah, no. That is strong.

[2:14] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That was an evening.

[2:15] David Rigano: So you have to make that with at least 100-proof alcohol.

[2:19] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah.

[2:20] David Rigano: I've been looking up recipes, because I'm like, this bottle's going to be gone soon.

[2:22] Mark-Eugene Garcia: You have to figure out something, yeah.

[2:24] David Rigano: So I should-

[2:24] Mark-Eugene Garcia: You have to start with some limoncello in the beginning, like sourdough.

[2:29] David Rigano: Yeah, you need the limoncello starter.

[2:31] Mark-Eugene Garcia: No, it looks fairly simple, so whenever I get around to making it, I will let the podcast audience know.

[2:37] David Rigano: But you have to get- say that you could use vodka, but number one, it would have to be like insanely good, expensive vodka, because you don't- you really don't want it to taste like anything.

[2:49] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And me and vodka don't play nice together, so we'll see.

[2:54] David Rigano: But so you're supposed to use 100-proof or more alcohol.

[2:57] Mark-Eugene Garcia: You need to get Everclear.

[2:59] David Rigano: And then you have to let the organic lemon peels soak, and I'm not being just total hippy-dippy. You want the organic, because it's going to infuse the alcohol, so you obviously don't want whatever pesticides or whatever are on it getting into the-

[3:18] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And you just- you peel a lemon, and you let that sit in there for a month.

[3:22] David Rigano: Oh my gosh.

[3:23] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And then you add sugar.

[3:24] David Rigano: Yeah.

[3:25] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And that's-

[3:25] David Rigano: Just lemonade, but just a special-

[3:27] Mark-Eugene Garcia: You know what also was infused with alcohol 100-proof? That guy who was in the store yesterday.

[3:30] David Rigano: We had a guest in the store who just had- he had a lot to drink, and you could tell.

[3:40] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And then he went-

[3:41] David Rigano: Yeah, the Woodford Reserve bottle was almost empty.

[3:43] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That was the thing, and then he went and sat on the couches in the back, and then I had to alert security.

[3:48] David Rigano: And then I was watching it on the Ring cameras as it was happening live, and I watched him pull that giant bottle out of his bag.

[3:55] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah.

[3:56] David Rigano: And I know a Woodford Reserve bottle when I see one. I saw it, and I know what that is. I was just in real time.

[4:02] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Oh shit, this- what is that?

[4:04] David Rigano: That was a day.

[4:05] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That was at the bookshop.

[4:06] David Rigano: Not sure that it was Woodford Reserve that was in the bottle.

[4:09] Mark-Eugene Garcia: It was actually Limoncello.

[4:12] David Rigano: It all comes back.

[4:13] Mark-Eugene Garcia: But that was the bottle. I recognize the shape of the- and any bourbon drinkers out there, especially if you're a Woodford, you know that bottle. And that was-

[4:21] David Rigano: Well, between the lemon and the sugar and the Everclear, it sounds like quite the collaboration, David.

[4:26] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Nice.

[4:27] David Rigano: Nice transition.

[4:28] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And here to talk about collaborations.

[4:31] David Rigano: In our episode today, we were joined by Joel Veenstra, author of Working Together in Theater Collaboration and Leadership.

[4:38] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah, this was a fun conversation.

[4:39] David Rigano: It really was.

[4:40] Mark-Eugene Garcia: It's a conversation about the essential roles that shape a production, including producers, directors, playwrights, actors, designers, stage managers, dramaturgs, and crews.

[4:48] David Rigano: Theater's one of the most collaborative art forms that there is.

[4:51] Mark-Eugene Garcia: I feel like it really is. It's one that you are a part of something so huge, and you're doing your part, and you have your own little kingdom. You go down to the costume shop, and they have their own little world. And it overlaps, but it's also just theirs.

[5:05] David Rigano: And the same thing with backstage, with onstage. And he really delves into it. It's really cool. Also, he came from Irvine, from California. And his friend, Marana, was my husband's high school theater teacher.

[5:18] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Oh, that's right.

[5:20] David Rigano: Yeah. And so I remember talking to her. And I see her every year. And it's funny, because during that time while that was happening, that same weekend is when I was in that play, Sloppy Abandoned, Excavated Love, that was rehearsing at AMDA. And I walked out of my rehearsal hall and almost walked into the next one next door that Marana was in doing a workshop.

[5:40] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That's funny.

[5:41] David Rigano: That she was here for at the same time as this.

[5:42] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Were you in costume?

[5:44] David Rigano: No, thank God.

[5:46] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Because that's a very little amount of costume.

[5:49] David Rigano: Yeah.

[5:49] Mark-Eugene Garcia: No, I did not wander the halls of AMDA in an open robe. That was just reserved for the inside of the rehearsal hall.

[5:57] David Rigano: But Joel was here and had just such an in-depth, great conversation about just how theater works and how we all take part in it. And let's just dive in.

[6:07] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah, let's hear it.

[6:09] David Rigano: Without any further ado, let's talk to Joel.

[6:14] Joel Veenstra: Oh, thank you, David. Thank you, everyone. Thank you so much for being here.

[6:17] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Thank you for being here.

[6:18] Joel Veenstra: This is so great. I'm going to ask some questions. Y'all can ask some questions. I'm going to go back and forth. I want to start by talking about where the book came from and your relationship with the audience. We're going to be talking about collaboration. Let's talk about how this book came about and your collaborator on this book.

[6:40] Joel Veenstra: Absolutely. So the original collaborator on this book was Robert. The original author on this was Robert Cohen, who was the founding chair of the UC, University of California, Irvine Direct Department of Drama. He was there for 50 years, and then he retired and was foundational to create an entire program to make the movie possible. I picked up a book. I just picked up a class that was originally taught by another colleague, but often about collaboration that brought all of our incoming graduate students together to talk about how we work together in the theater. And so we were having these conversations, and I brought this book in to help them work and think about how we collaborate. And some of the elements within it were a little more within a modern lens versus where we're at now.

It was evolving in postmodern and post-postmodern framework. Trying to be in that lens felt like there was a need to update or adjustment to the text. Robert was very gracious, and I talked with him and his wife, Lorna, to see if they would be open to allowing me to do some updates to the text. And they were. I had to put together a whole proposal about things that I wanted to make some adjustments to. And they were very amenable and open to that. So then we started to have the conversations. And at one point, he was like, you know what? You can take this on. I'm willing to let you have this book to continue on. And so it was very gracious of him to allow me to take the ball and run with it.

And that's a part of the process a little bit sometimes of collaboration where you need somebody to give you space to do the work in order to do the work, right? Otherwise, it can sometimes be a push-pull or a little bit of a tense engagement. And there needs to be a little bit of a give-and-take for us to actually work together well.

[8:16] David Rigano: Yeah.

[8:17] Joel Veenstra: I love that you have this. I mentioned upstairs that I teach a high school theater workshop on collaboration because I think, and I think we'll all agree, that theater is one of the most, if not the most, collaborative art forms. Putting on any kind of live entertainment just requires so many people. Now, your book emphasizes the intersection of collaboration and leadership. Why do you see these as inseparable in theater making?

[8:44] Joel Veenstra: So obviously, within theater making, we need a lot of different people's voices and artistic lenses coming together to work together. And there was a little bit of a boom in the last decade of the bias of theater and creating stuff that clapped the way together. And often, I would have conversations with people about what that was like. And a lot of people thought, this is not good. We don't necessarily enjoy this process because when you just have a lot of people coming together to create and no sense of direction or leadership or somebody helping to lead the way, then it becomes a little bit chaotic. There's no sort of choices that are being made. In the film realm, where we probably we have a blue sky framework where we've created a lot of different ideas in the realm of the board and hope they stick.

But we need somebody to actually help move that ball forward and decide which direction we're gonna go to. In theater, we typically have a director and a playwright to help divide that path framework. But each one of us here at different areas, whether we're stage managers or designers or even backstage can bring some leadership to the table and really create a space that people can work together well in and thrive. Or it becomes a situation where we're like, we don't wanna work in that area again, right? And I'm trying to encourage us within this framework is think about a different paradigm to not only just create a space where we work in and then we don't work in again, but shift the culture where we uplift everyone and have a more productive and positive engagement.

[10:09] Mark-Eugene Garcia: I love the part where you say that there's so much in our culture that makes us think them versus us. And it is just us.

[10:16] Joel Veenstra: Yes.

[10:17] Mark-Eugene Garcia: There is no them, all of us, even if we have different responsibilities, we are all working towards the same end goal.

[10:25] Joel Veenstra: Absolutely. And the thing I think is very powerful that I've just been coming into is that sense of them versus us is really in our control. And it's based on our lens and how we see the world and how we engage with the world. So it's not really about them being other than us. It's about our lens and how we perceive the other people. We perceive them as being a part of our community and we're going towards the same goal. It dramatically shifts the engagement. I do some consultation with people that are doing presentations or interview type of skills with improvisational mindsets. And one of the things that I encourage them to do is when they think about their audience or the people that are interviewing them, rather than think about them as an adversarial framework or like they're trying to win them over, change their mind, the people that are listening to them want them to be successful.

Whether that's an interviewer or an audience, they want to get good information, be enriched or try to find that perfect person for the job. No one wants to sit down and spend an hour of their time and not get something out of it or find the person that you want to be employed. And yet, historically, I'll talk from my own lens, and oftentimes I thought, oh no, I've got to try to win them over. They don't like me. And it's really about how I'm thinking and seeing the world more so than the other person.

[11:33] Joel Veenstra: And then there's people who come in without a collaborative and want to control maybe more than they're even able. Jen Silverman, and I'm going to misquote it, but Jen Silverman has a great quote in Collective Rage where they're creating a devised piece. And one of the Bettys, if you have not read Collective Rage, play in five Bettys. One of the Bettys says something to the effect of, oh, since this is devised, can we all throw whatever ideas in? And then the other Betty says, it's devised, which means I can throw whatever. Something to that effect. Obviously, she does it better. And part of me wanted to be like, can I really grab the foot mark? Can you really grab the foot? But read Jen Silverman's Collective Rage, play in five Bettys. It's here on the shelf at Drama Bookshop.

[12:17] Mark-Eugene Garcia: So you started talking about your own professional experience. How has your own professional experience shaped what has successful collaboration?

[12:29] Joel Veenstra: I've been very privileged to be an acting stage manager and working on various productions. And as a stage manager, you're the linchpin, you're the center of the process. And so you're seeing everything going around, helping to be a hub of communication and engagement. So you see sometimes when things start going off the rails, and there's some points where you can step in and help force prep in a productive way. And there's some times when if you don't, then it's challenging. And you can see some of that in action. And it's so interesting. I really love the perspective because a stage manager is not typically a creative role on a production. It's a logistical one. But you need those logistics to make the creative ideas happen. And a lot of times, you need the logistical person to say that can't happen in order to let the creatives figure out a different way that is possible.

[13:25] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah, you need the edges of the sandbox, right? If you don't, the edges of the sandbox stands all over the place.

[13:30] Joel Veenstra: It's a little chaotic.

[13:31] Mark-Eugene Garcia: I wouldn't counter those slightly.

[13:33] Joel Veenstra: I wouldn't count it.

[13:39] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Or not always.

[13:40] Joel Veenstra: No creative.

[13:41] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Let me just ask, Ron, this is going on. This is my first time coming to an office talk. So I just want to flow without being disruptive.

[13:48] Joel Veenstra: Sure.

[13:49] Ron: Can we ask questions?

[13:50] Joel Veenstra: Please do.

[13:50] Ron: As you're asking them.

[13:52] Joel Veenstra: Yeah.

[13:52] Ron: The first thing that came to my mind is I've been involved in VA for over five decades. And so I would like to know, who is the target audience? I mean, is this for people outside? I mean, because people involved in the VA know that the process involved is a collaborative. And not only their statement, but you have music with them. So who is the target audience?

[14:18] Joel Veenstra: So the question is, most people who are in the industry know that it's a collaborative. I do say most people, not always all. Who is the target audience for this book?

[14:35] David Rigano: Welcome back to The Drama Book Show! Today, we are thrilled to have Joel Veenstra with us, who is the Chair of the Drama Department at UC Irvine. Joel, thank you for joining us.

[14:55] Joel Veenstra: Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

[15:05] Mark-Eugene Garcia: So, Joel, you specialize in stage management and improvisation. Can you tell us a bit about how those two areas intersect in the world of theatre?

[15:25] Joel Veenstra: Absolutely. Stage management is all about collaboration and communication. It’s the backbone of any production. When you think about improvisation, it’s about being present and reacting to what’s happening in the moment. Both require a strong sense of teamwork and trust among all members of the production team.

[15:55] Dylan Glick: That’s fascinating! How do you foster that sense of collaboration among your students at UC Irvine?

[16:15] Joel Veenstra: We emphasize the importance of ensemble work. In our classes, we often engage in exercises that require students to rely on each other, whether it’s through improvisational games or collaborative projects. This builds a foundation of trust and respect, which is essential in any theatrical setting.

[16:45] David Rigano: I love that approach. Can you share an example of a project where you saw this collaboration really shine?

[17:05] Joel Veenstra: Certainly! Last semester, we worked on a student-led production where everyone had a role, from directing to stage management to acting. The students had to communicate constantly and support each other, and it was incredible to see how they all came together to create something special.

[17:35] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That sounds like a wonderful experience. What challenges do you think students face when trying to collaborate effectively?

[17:55] Joel Veenstra: One of the biggest challenges is often the fear of judgment. Students may hesitate to share their ideas or take risks because they worry about how others will perceive them. It’s crucial to create an environment where everyone feels safe to express themselves without fear of criticism.

[18:25] Dylan Glick: That’s a great point. How do you encourage that kind of safe space in your classes?

[18:45] Joel Veenstra: We start every class with a check-in, where students can share how they’re feeling or any challenges they’re facing. This helps to build a sense of community and allows everyone to feel heard. Additionally, we practice active listening and constructive feedback, which reinforces a supportive atmosphere.

[19:15] David Rigano: It sounds like you’re really cultivating a positive environment for creativity. How do you think this approach impacts the final productions?

[19:35] Joel Veenstra: When students feel safe and supported, they’re more willing to take creative risks. This leads to more innovative and dynamic productions. The final product often reflects the collaborative spirit that was fostered throughout the process.

[20:05] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That’s inspiring! What advice would you give to young theatre artists who are just starting out and want to improve their collaborative skills?

[20:25] Joel Veenstra: I would say to practice being open and adaptable. Collaboration is about compromise and finding common ground. Don’t be afraid to voice your ideas, but also be willing to listen and incorporate others’ perspectives. It’s a balance that takes time to develop.

[20:55] Dylan Glick: Great advice! As we wrap up, what do you hope your students take away from their time in your department?

[21:15] Joel Veenstra: I hope they leave with a strong sense of teamwork and an understanding of the importance of collaboration in theatre. I want them to feel empowered to create and to know that their voices matter in the artistic process.

[21:45] David Rigano: Thank you so much, Joel, for sharing your insights with us today. It’s been a pleasure having you on the show!

[22:05] Joel Veenstra: Thank you for having me! It’s been a great conversation.

[22:25] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And thank you to our listeners for tuning in to The Drama Book Show! We’ll see you next time!

[29:11] Joel Veenstra: Amazing Together. And so I think, yeah, just try to build those connections and conversations.

[29:18] Mark-Eugene Garcia: I would add on to that, working in the academic sphere, is there anything that you tend to see from people coming through academic theatre, maybe especially people coming out of high school theatre where they have done it one way and that was probably their high school drama teacher's way through the higher education and then into the profession? Is there any sort of learning curve that you see in there of maybe what young theatre makers' expectations tend to be versus what the reality of doing professional theatre is?

[29:46] Joel Veenstra: I would say the entire string through all of that is there's this thought that you alluded to is that this is how it's done. And I see that from that very beginning to professionals who think this is the way it's done. And I've worked in a lot of spaces and it's done a lot of different ways. And I think an openness towards curiosity and thinking, how is this space working? An openness to that so that there can be a discovery of what is this space going to be and what it's going to be like as we create together in this space. It always serves folks well.

[30:34] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And if I can ask the person who asked the question, what kind of theatre maker are you?

[30:38] Audience Member: I'm a former anesthesiologist.

[30:41] Joel Veenstra: Okay, great. Because one thing that I love about collaboration and this is a little bit upstairs and this is the high school workshop that I teach. Because like I said, I think a lot of high schoolers especially come from a, we do it the way my drama teacher says we do it. And I get a finished play in my hands that has been published and I don't know how many people's fingerprints are on this. I don't know what kind of collaboration went into. All I know is I get a finished play and then the person in charge puts me on stage and tells me what to do. And I try to teach this workshop where I can get them to think about how many different, because the collaborative process is also so different.

If you were the person who had the idea in the first, if you have been assigned to be the director, if you are the person whose words are being spoken, if you are someone who's going to be on stage and you're part of the collaboration is working with the director, the stage manager, the choreographer, the musical director to make the writer's work come to life. So I guess part of this is like, what's your advice to finding your place within the collaboration because everyone's piece of that pie is so different for what they're contributing.

[32:01] Joel Veenstra: For folks that are on the earlier career path or the earlier framework, I just encourage people to try everything. I think that's a part of it. And I would encourage folks that when you're in different spaces, be all in it. I think in my experience, in my span of time in this work, early on, we didn't have a lot of backstage crew frameworks in terms of certain educational experiences. And then you go more and then you certainly have more. And some people diminish that and feel like, I don't want to work backstage. So they're back there. They're not really as engaged or actively invested in the same way. But there are people out there that are out there tonight that are literally making their entire careers doing that job.

And they're certainly happy doing that. And that's a pathway for people. And we don't want to diminish that. And so when people are taking on that role, I would say try to take it on that role as much as you can when you're on stage as when you're off stage, because it's an essential part to making the theater process.

[32:55] Joel Veenstra: We just this past, in the past month, we had a show that went up that we had a very talented performer who was on the backstage crew. And she was equally invested in doing it exceptionally well as she was when she was on stage. And it was pretty remarkable because when you have that mindset of we're all in this, we're all creating something together, whether you're on stage or not, that's where something really magical happens. And you might find out that you actually are really passionate and love an area of theater that you never knew. We have a number of folks at the University of California, Irvine, where I teach, who come in, they think, I'm going to be a musical theater person, I'm going to be a performer. And then they suddenly get excited about sound design. And suddenly that becomes their passion. And they never knew that would have been a thing if they just thought, I'm only doing this thing.

[33:36] Joel Veenstra: There's a certain element of working together well in theater or otherwise, that takes a little bit of open handedness and that willingness to try things that you may not think is for you, but you don't know until you actually try it. And I would also add that just makes you more hireable. The more skills you have, the more chances you get to be hired. But I have noticed also, like when I was in high school, if you were interested in theater and you didn't want to be on stage, you were a techie. And you did whatever backstage. And now I teach these workshops. And I'm having all of the kids, especially since I teach a collaboration workshop, I teach a directing workshop. And I say, what's your function in your drama club? And I have kids going, oh, I run the props department.

[34:18] Joel Veenstra: I love it. I had a kid say, I'm my school's A2. I said to them, I didn't know what an A2 was until my friend was doing it on Broadway. And so I also think that the educational theater has broadened itself to allow kids to discover these things younger and younger. Do you know what they have at some of these conferences that I go? They have like tech relay races.

[34:49] Mark-Eugene Garcia: My goodness, that's awesome.

[34:50] Joel Veenstra: And one kid said, I did a quick change challenge. And I said, did you do it on an actor or a dummy? And don't make a comment about the same thing. And they said, I did it on a person. They had a volunteer student who was in a costume, who volunteered to have the costume taken off, a new one put on, everybody timed.

[35:12] Mark-Eugene Garcia: It's amazing.

[35:13] Joel Veenstra: It's incredible. It's incredible.

[35:15] Mark-Eugene Garcia: What they're getting.

[35:16] Joel Veenstra: It's incredible. And I also want to, I think one of the benefits of books like this is that there are, that's not everywhere, right?

[35:23] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yes.

[35:24] Joel Veenstra: The United States is a wide swath of spaces. And I think one of the benefits of textbooks or things like podcasts like this is there's access points that we can get out there so that people that may not have that kind of opportunity can get some more access. And I'm sure there are still places where if you're a techie, you're a techie. All you are and whatever has to be done backstage, you're the one doing it. But there's more, there's more out there and there's no diminishing of techies or backstage people.

[35:48] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Oh yeah, not to be diminished.

[35:49] Joel Veenstra: But there doesn't have to be a divide. You don't have the opportunity to learn the specifics that some other people do. It's a much, some places, just because of resources a lot of times, it's just a broader. Yeah, but there's opportunities for folks to grow and develop. And that's the beauty of both online resources and books and things like that. So to really expand. So if you're listening to this podcast at home, please come to the Drone.

[36:14] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Or hop on your local online book and order a copy.

[36:18] Joel Veenstra: There you go. And learn a little bit about this. Do we have any other questions?

[36:23] Mark-Eugene Garcia: I have more if we need, but I want to keep this open. We've touched on this, but I want to go into a little bit more depth about the power dynamic. Because as you said, someone has to be leading. And for a lot of elements, the buck has to stop with someone. There's a lot of times that the buck ultimately has to stop with the director, but also within certain departments. There's other layers of collaboration going on that the buck has to stop with someone before it's going to get to the next. So how do you see navigating those power dynamics while keeping it collaborative?

[36:58] Joel Veenstra: I think there is certainly a sense of awareness, which is essential. You need to know where you fit within that power dynamic and know what kind of environment you have. You have certainly some environments and institutions that are very collaborative. I was a production manager at Cornerstone Theatre Company based in Los Angeles. And they're a very collaborative theatre space that essentially everybody in a company can add comments and thoughts. But ultimately, the director needs to make some decisions in terms of how they want to go. And I've also worked in the film industry for a while, which is very hierarchical. You must literally talk to your head, and then they'll talk to the other head because you can't cross-talk and all these kind of frameworks.

And so I think there is an element of being mindful of what type of environment you are in and what kind of communication patterns are. There's also Broadway directors that are very collaborative and want everybody to be adding ideas, and there's some that are very not. And so I think there's a certain element of being aware of what type of environment you are in and then trying to adjust to that environment.

[38:03] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Do you have, I don't know if I would call this advice, or going back to maybe the ideal, what you wish it could be for maybe some people in positions of power, how they could be more open to collaboration while maintaining whatever that power dynamic that they have. What's the way that you think some people could be more collaborative without losing the power dynamic?

[38:25] Joel Veenstra: Stop talking. So if you take a moment and stop talking, you'll be amazed what people share with you, right? If you're constantly the person that's in power and you're constantly talking, no one else can take space. And so you've got to be able to step back and give a little space or a little bit. Collaboration is about a give and take, but if you are filling the space with your voice or your comments and not giving and taking, then other people can't add in. And I think when theater collaboration works really well, it's a collaborative effort that things are coming together and happening in a way that couldn't happen if it didn't have mutual partners and building something together. It's like Lego bricks.

If we just add a Lego brick or reverse Jenga, right? There's a way to build there. And so if you are a person that's in a position of power, taking some time to not just have some space to talk for other people to talk, rather, is kind of the essential framework. And if you're a person that doesn't have the power or can't create the environment, self-advocate. Ask for the space. Ask for a moment to share something. And sometimes you will have that space and sometimes it won't be the right moment, but you can ask for a moment because certainly no one comes into this field, the top producer, the top person. So you're working your way up and knowing, building that framework. But the power of us creating together collaboratively like we do within theater is when we're all creating collaboratively, we're all adding to the thing that we're making together versus just one person telling everyone else what to do.

[39:53] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And that touches on my next question, which is if you are somewhere on the ladder that's not the top, the head of a department, what's your advice for finding your way in collaboratively? Because even like you mentioned in film, it is so strict between departments and not because of the logistics of how to get it made. And sometimes theater has to be like that and sometimes theater is less like that. But what's your advice to someone who is maybe an actor who is involved in a position where they want to have a collaborative say, but you also don't want to step on any toes or you don't want to overstep? How would you advise? You touched on it, but what are other ways to navigate that?

[40:38] Joel Veenstra: Yeah, I think patience and sharing your voice when it's appropriate. And sometimes it's not. And so you have to be a little bit patient within that framework, self-advocating as you're able to in terms of sharing your ideas, but also knowing that there's a time and place and sometimes there's an efficiency challenge that it's not the time and place, but you certainly can always ask for a moment, but just trying to be mindful of, again, time and place a little bit.

[41:06] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah. And what about when it becomes some kind of necessity? Something with my costume is not going to allow me to do what I have been asked to do. Something doesn't feel safe in what I need to do on the set. Those kind of things. But how do you find those moments, again, without stepping on your toes, but not just advocating for yourself creatively, but advocating for yourself and the necessities of making the production happen safely?

[41:37] Joel Veenstra: I think the moment that you feel those challenges, you need to voice that, right? Like when you're feeling unsafe or obviously, again, like the Me Too movement where things you need to try to voice the challenge and issue as soon as possible. And if somebody doesn't listen to you, moving up the chain of command, right, for what that term is, but try to find an ally advocate, try to bring it up to the next person that can make some change if they can't do it, next person up the chain of command. But there certainly is a framework where if there's a safety issue or a concern issue that needs to be elevated fairly quickly and making sure that people hear you within that framework.

[42:14] Joel Veenstra: If it, you know, yeah. So I think that's an essential thing, just knowing that I find more often, though, sometimes, especially among my dear colleagues in acting, they're like, oh, yeah, I'll jump off this thing. It's cool. And having a wide variety of people that are aware and mindful about what safety concerns there might be is essential. So that's why as a collaborative art form, trying to listen to things together and being mindful of what concerns might be and talking to experts and getting a wide variety of different people in there is essential.

[42:43] Joel Veenstra: I remember working on a show where we had characters who had very tall wigs and our wig designer brought in these absolutely gorgeous wigs and they had curlicues in them and all and the actors put them on and we were doing a run because we were like, it's going to, it changes your center of balance. It's gone and we're going to have them as early as we can in the dance rehearsals and things like that. And they went through it and we were taking a break and they were like, do you want us to take these off? And I didn't realize that was a very polite way of saying, please let us take these off. They said, do you want us to take these off? And we said, no, that's fine. We just keep kind of walking around in them and feeling it out.

Only then did one person say, mine kind of hurts. And then everyone else, my wig hurts too. And we realized, okay, please take them off. If it hurts, take it off right now. And that was the way that we were able to say, I'm so sorry that we made you wear these wigs that were hurting for the entirety of this room, but absolutely take them off. And now we have to go back to the designer and say, these are gorgeous. And how do we get the same look without killing our action?

[43:47] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Welcome back to The Drama Book Show! Today, we're diving into the world of collaboration and leadership in theatre with our guest, Joel Veenstra.

[44:17] Joel Veenstra: Thank you for having me! It's great to be here.

[44:47] Mark-Eugene Garcia: So, Joel, you have a wealth of experience in stage management and improvisation. Can you tell us how those skills contribute to effective collaboration in theatre?

[45:17] Joel Veenstra: Absolutely! Stage management is all about communication and organization. It’s the backbone of any production. When everyone knows their roles and responsibilities, it allows for a smoother creative process. Improvisation, on the other hand, teaches adaptability. In theatre, things rarely go as planned, so being able to think on your feet is crucial.

[45:47] Dylan Glick: That makes a lot of sense. How do you see the role of a director in fostering collaboration among the cast and crew?

[46:17] Joel Veenstra: The director is essentially the captain of the ship. They set the vision for the production and guide the team towards that vision. A good director encourages input from everyone, creating an environment where all voices are heard. This not only enhances creativity but also builds trust among the team.

[46:47] David Rigano: Trust is such an important element. Can you share an example from your experience where collaboration led to a breakthrough moment in a production?

[47:17] Joel Veenstra: Certainly! I once worked on a production where the script was still evolving during rehearsals. The actors brought their own ideas to the table, and we had a brainstorming session that completely transformed a key scene. It was a perfect example of how collaboration can elevate the material.

[47:47] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That’s inspiring! How do you balance the need for collaboration with the necessity of making final decisions as a leader?

[48:17] Joel Veenstra: It’s a delicate balance. I believe in involving the team in the decision-making process as much as possible, but ultimately, the director must make the final call. It’s important to communicate why a decision is made, so everyone understands the rationale behind it.

[48:47] Dylan Glick: Communication really is key. What advice would you give to emerging theatre artists about working collaboratively?

[49:17] Joel Veenstra: My advice would be to stay open-minded and be willing to listen. Collaboration is about compromise and finding common ground. Also, don’t be afraid to share your ideas; you never know how they might inspire others.

[49:47] David Rigano: Great advice! As we wrap up, what do you think is the most rewarding aspect of collaboration in theatre?

[49:59] Joel Veenstra: The most rewarding aspect is seeing a production come to life through the collective efforts of everyone involved. When you witness the magic that happens when diverse talents unite, it’s truly fulfilling.

[50:09] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Thank you, Joel! This has been a fantastic discussion about collaboration and leadership in theatre.

[50:21] Dylan Glick: Yes, thank you for sharing your insights with us today.

[50:31] Joel Veenstra: Thank you for having me! It’s been a pleasure.

[50:43] David Rigano: And thank you to our audience for joining us today on The Drama Book Show! Be sure to follow us on social media and check out our upcoming events.

[50:53] Mark-Eugene Garcia: We’ll see you next time!

[51:05] Dylan Glick: Bye, everyone!

[51:15] Joel Veenstra: Bye!

[51:27] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: This episode was brought to you by The Drama Book Show! and the Broadway Podcast Network.

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[51:49] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Until next time, keep the drama alive!

[51:59] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Music by Paul Rigano.

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[52:55] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Bye for now!

[53:05] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Until next time!

[53:17] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Keep creating!

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[54:33] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Bye!

[54:45] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Take care!

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[55:07] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Thank you for joining us!

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[55:29] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Bye for now!

[55:39] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Until next time!

[55:51] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Keep creating!

[56:01] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Stay inspired!

[56:13] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Thank you!

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[56:35] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Goodbye!

[56:45] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: See you next time!

[56:57] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Until then!

[57:07] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Bye!

[57:19] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Take care!

[57:29] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Keep in touch!

[57:41] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Thank you for joining us!

[57:51] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: We’ll see you soon!

[58:03] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Bye for now!

[58:13] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Until next time!