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[0:00] Unknown speaker: Welcome, listeners, to our mini-series, recapping episodes of FX's Emmy-winning, limited-series Fosse-Verdon. In the show, we see an inside look into two time periods on Broadway, a literally more historic Broadway where the characters reside, but hidden under that layer we find today's Broadway, through which our modern artists interpret that story.

[0:41] Unknown speaker: So let's dive in and talk about episode 3, Me and My Baby, which is not referring to you and I, Aaron.

[0:54] Aaron: But isn't it?

[0:55] Unknown speaker: But isn't it? Give us the stats.

[0:57] Unknown speaker: Me and My Baby premiered on April 23, 2019. It was written by Debra Kahn and directed by Adam Bernstein. In this episode, we are treated to our first numbers not originally choreographed by Bob Fosse, the opening dream sequence to Wilkommen, and the Jack Cole revue number, both choreographed by Andy Blankenbuehler.

[1:16] Unknown speaker: Portraying a bevy of beautiful secretaries are Mackenzie Bell, Anna Noble, Sam Farrow, Mindy Wallace, and sisters Leigh-Ann and Sara Esty. In a flashback to Gwen's early career in Los Angeles, we also see a quintet of Broadway's best: Adrienne Lee, Ricky Ubeda, Ryan Steele, and Reed Luplau, all centered around the flawless Eliza Ullman.

[1:36] Unknown speaker: While the titular song from Chicago does not appear in the episode, the featured music that does all comes from the musical Cabaret, with music and lyrics by Kander and Ebb. We are treated to Ethan Slater portraying the legendary Joel Grey in Wilkommen and Two Ladies, accompanied audibly by Alysha Umphress and Morgan Weed, and visually by Lindsay Dunn and Kaitlyn Edgar, as well as footage of Kelli Barrett singing Mein Herr from a previous episode.

[2:01] Unknown speaker: Lastly, and sadly, the viewership for the series has officially left the millions this week. The live numbers coming in at 453,000 and the DVR numbers at 505,000. Me and My Baby misses the million mark with a viewership of 959,000 viewers.

[2:19] Unknown speaker: And what happens in this episode, Mo?

[2:21] Unknown speaker: Bob ends his vacation early to begin the editing process of the Cabaret film, but is not happy to find out that the editing team has already created an unwatchable rough cut that makes him feel like the world is falling apart. Bouncing into Gwen's apartment with Chinese food, he asks Gwen to join him in the editing room because he's feeling a little lost right now. However, Gwen isn't available to assist Bob because she's going to be in rehearsals for a play, a straight play, called Children! Children!

[2:50] Aaron: As opposed to those musical plays.

[2:52] Unknown speaker: Yes, tockicles. The two play power struggle with their daughter Nicole, both claiming that they can't be responsible for her while they are working. While Gwen passes her off to Bob for a dinner meeting with her manager Mel, Bob passes her off to his friend Paddy. When Gwen finds this out, she explodes at Bob, who considers watching his own daughter a favor. Being taken advantage of by Bob reminds Gwen of her teenage self living in Culver City, California, when she caught the eye of James Hennigan, a prominent theater critic who rapes, impregnates, and then agrees to marry the young Verdon.

[3:26] Unknown speaker: Filling in for her deadbeat husband, Gwen reviews a performance of The Jack Cole Dancers and realizes she needs to perform for Cole, leaving her bastard infant son with her parents to go on tour. In addition to playing wife and mother to Bob, the writers of Children! Children! want Gwen, a two-time Tony Award winner, to audition for the role. She pretends to love the audition process, saying it's like a first date with a new crush. She gets the part, though Mel confides in her that she was not everyone's first choice.

[4:02] Unknown speaker: In rehearsal, Gwen gets singled out with more notes and adjustments than she's used to, a sharp juxtaposition to how she was lauded for her performance in Can-Can. Feeling inept at her work in the rehearsal room, Gwen offers her services in Bob's editing bay, where she is subservient but shines.

[4:12] Unknown speaker: All right, episode three.

[4:13] Aaron: Episode three.

[4:14] Unknown speaker: How'd we do?

[4:15] Unknown speaker: I mean, I was thinking this podcast series is secretly so boring because all I have is good things to say. Every episode, which I guess is like the strength and weakness of recapping a really critically acclaimed show, is that while we had fun, like ripping apart Smash, there's just not that opportunity to do that here. Is that rude? Is that ugly to say?

[4:47] Aaron: I agree that there is not that opportunity to throw Smash under the bus. But I think what is cool is that we've been pulling out these themes that are obvious, but there's just so much going on in the show that it's hard to grasp onto them, I think.

[5:04] Unknown speaker: Sure.

[5:05] Unknown speaker: Yeah, the things we've been connecting from episode to episode, I found really fascinating and things I didn't think about in the first watch where I was just impressed by the performances, enjoying the journey, you know, just like a normal person watching television, I guess.

[5:17] Aaron: Well, I mean, and I guess that's what's also, like you said, I think in our first episode, the difference between cable and network is that the opportunity to dive in and really sink your teeth into deeper themes and deeper concepts when you're not encumbered by audience response and you're not worried about the ratings.

[5:38] Unknown speaker: Yeah, yeah, it's really nice to really dive in and think about it analytically. It's great. I love it. I'm digging it. I enjoy all three episodes of this that we've watched. I did love that we sort of got an opening number, which we haven't had in a while, or at all in this series. How'd you like Wilkommen?

[5:56] Aaron: It was interesting, an interesting takeaway, right? We've seen basically only numbers that exist in either the musicals or the movies. And this was a fantasy sequence. We're starting to see fantasy sequences.

[6:09] Unknown speaker: It sort of dips its toe after I just came for Smash. It sort of dips its toe into like the Smash pool.

[6:15] Aaron: Yeah, into living in a musical fantasy for Bob. And can I tell you, Sam Rockwell better dance.

[6:23] Unknown speaker: He's doing all right.

[6:24] Aaron: He's keeping up and he's carrying the number. I was like, all right. Okay, Sam. Hopefully when Broadway returns, we'll get to see his musical prowess in everyone's favorite musical American Buffalo. So the title of every one of these episodes has either been the name of a song or a lyric in a song from a number that Bob Fosse is associated with. And here we have Me and My Baby from the act two opener of Chicago.

[6:50] Unknown speaker: This is also the first time we get a song title that doesn't exist in the episode, right?

[6:58] Aaron: Sure.

[6:59] Unknown speaker: The number it's referring to is nowhere present in the episode. Who's me? Who's my baby? What do you think, Aaron?

[7:05] Aaron: This is going to be nerdy of me, but it's like, have you ever, you know, the second book in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, The Two Towers? I feel like it's sort of like that where there's continual and forever argument on what two towers they're referring to. And no one has an agreement because Tolkien purposely left that open. And I feel like this is sort of the same thing. Who's me? Who's my baby? There are endless possibilities. There's the literal, like me and my baby, where it's like Gwen and her first child, Gwen and Nicole, Bob and Nicole. And then there's like the colloquialism of baby, whereas is it like Bob and Gwen? Is it Gwen and Bob? All of this to say is, I don't know. Do you have a thought?

[8:06] Unknown speaker: Because they're giving us the hints of what the title refers to at the end of the episode. That's why I would go to Gwen and her first child. But I definitely love the Tolkienism of being able to play with the title and its reference.

[8:16] Aaron: I mean, because you have this aspect of the most literal and because we've watched this history of Gwen, which we'll get to in a little bit, of her and her child. Yes, that's the easy one. If we're talking about like in a relationship, like me and my baby, one is the central character. One is the accessory to the central character.

[8:27] Unknown speaker: Right. And it leads us to our first thesis, which is who is the puppet master? Gwen or Bob? Is Gwen Bob's baby or is Bob Gwen's baby? I think in episode two, we were really seeing who's got the pain, right? We were seeing Gwen make the decision to transfer power over to Bob, right? We saw her having to audition for Bob. We saw her leaving her boyfriend, fiancé, Mr. Brady in the middle of the night to go to rehearsal. Now we're really seeing that the power is solidly landing in Bob's court. Right?

[9:04] Aaron: I would argue that in the last episode, we saw their rise and we sort of saw their fall and their artistic separation and their marital separation in Mallorca. And I think where we get to is the aftermath of that. The power struggle is back. Who is on top and who is on bottom?

[9:22] Unknown speaker: To me, it feels less like the power struggle in episode two and more Gwen is revolting against the power that she's given up.

[9:30] Aaron: Okay.

[9:31] Unknown speaker: Bob asked Gwen to join him in the editing room because that's what he's used to. That's now the power dynamic that they've set up in who's got the pain. However, Gwen is revolting against that. She's like, I'm going to do my own thing. I'm going to do a play, even though it is not the creative experience that I'm used to because I need to assert some more power. Right? And then on top of that, they've got the power play of who is the parent administering childcare.

[9:59] Aaron: Sure. Yeah.

[10:00] Unknown speaker: We've got the societal norms of Gwen has to be the person who is also in charge of their daughter.

[10:07] Aaron: Yeah.

[10:07] Unknown speaker: And then they're going back and forth. If we saw the guard fall last episode where they got closer, their marriage was on top. This is the episode where we see the guard kind of come up again. Gwen is saying, nah, I can't do that. I'm doing a play. She doesn't have the play yet, but she's projecting it to her ex-husband. She projects it like, nah, I can't do your thing. I have my own thing. And it's serious too. She's trying to get away from him. We've watched her be hurt by him too many times. And she's just doing her best to crawl out of this Bob-shaped hole that she's been in for so long.

[10:45] Aaron: But it's not the first time she's felt subservient to a man and felt like she had to revolt against the box she had put herself in with a man, right? Because we get the deliciously concise flashback with Santino Fontana playing her first husband, James Hennigan. You only see these little moments and yet the whole story is

[11:11] Mo Brady: Very clear in my mind. Santino's such a wonderful person that when he plays like nightmare characters, I'm like, no, Santino, no, no. Anyway, continue. So it's like, yes, it is frustrating that Gwen is in this position where she feels like she has to revolt. But obviously, like she's also been in this place before, right?

[11:33] Aaron Albano: Yeah, yeah. And the conversation they have when Gwen is returned to the editing bay to help Bob on Mine Hair. The sort of candidness of the conversation there, right? Gwen says, you didn't need me. You just hate being alone. It's like a throwaway statement.

[11:49] Mo Brady: Sure.

[11:50] Aaron Albano: The way that's lines delivered, but that is exactly the point of everything we are being presented about Bob, right? Similarly, when she says to Bob, I wish you were directing the play. She says it's sort of like a thrown away line. And yet it is exactly the truth. You can tell because she's getting torn apart in Children! Children! rehearsal.

[12:10] Mo Brady: Yeah.

[12:10] Aaron Albano: By the director in a way that she's not used to being. The depth of the guilt she's obviously feeling between being a career woman and a mother is like so clear when she gives Bob the angel monologue. He reads it, makes a suggestion to change the angel to a little girl instead of a boy saying, what do you know about little boys? Like Gwen turns on a dime there. And that's how we get into the whole flashback about her infant son.

[12:37] Mo Brady: Well, that's also interesting. Do you? And I guess this is what gets into it, because I did not really do any research. And based on the information told to us by the show, does Bob even know about her first marriage? And does Bob even know about?

[12:51] Aaron Albano: Oh, I don't think like if he has no idea that she's raised a young boy before.

[12:57] Mo Brady: I don't think that's it. I think that they both have a lot of history. I mean, they're both on their third marriages with each other.

[13:05] Aaron Albano: Something like that. Yeah. I mean, that gets into the angel monologue, which we'll get to in a second. But like, I guess what's interesting is the way our thesis one bleeds into our thesis two is that like Gwen is fighting an uphill battle to be the puppet master because the world makes her fight this uphill battle. And what sucks about it is she's completely capable. And Bob, while attracted to it, hates it and wants to maintain the power structure that exists in the world, then arguably now, every time because especially that moment, the games that Bob plays are infuriating. Gwen's trying her best. She tells him about this play that she's doing. And his first thing is what like, you're gonna hate it.

When's the last time you acted? Just these gaslighting cutting things to diminish like her self-worth. And I was just like, dude, you suck. Watching Gwen in this uphill battle. You also see her in rehearsal where she's getting notes after note after note after note. And you know, after getting bogged down in rehearsal that day, her first go to is that editing bay. Yeah, it's funny when Bob's having problems with the film edit. The first place he goes is to Gwen's house with the Chinese food. And when Gwen is having problems in rehearsal, Children! Children! rehearsal, the first place she goes is to Bob. I wrote down this question about Gwen, but I really, I wonder it about both. They obviously respect each other.

They obviously admire each other. Do they love each other? I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question. I think all of those things are true. And I do think they love each other in the grand, beautiful, like healthy way we define love. It's not that. I would argue that they're addicted to each other. And there's a lot of nuance in there, like with love language, lust language, all of those things. But we can see in the way it's presented and arguably the way it went, like, they're unhealthy for each other. They're toxic for each other. And yet they're both artists. And the best art they've created is together when they've created it in tandem. It's the catch 22 of we're watching how unhealthy they are for each other. And yet their legacy is entwined. They're a team. They're a team. And we take them as a team and they're revered as a team.

[15:36] Mo Brady: Yes. And also, there's a Broadway show called Fosse. And there is not a Broadway show called Verdon. There's the tea right there for sure.

[15:49] Aaron Albano: Do you know this story about the little angel boy? My mother used to read it to me when I was your age. It's about a little boy who goes to heaven and becomes an angel.

[15:58] Mo Brady: Angel?

[16:11] Aaron Albano: Yes. But when he gets to heaven, he realizes he isn't like the other angels. You see, he isn't beautiful like they are. And none of the other little angels will play with him. And he's all alone. One day he decides to leave the angels and to go live with the animals in animal heaven instead. They don't seem to mind that his wings are short or his harp is made of brass. They're kind to him. And they play with him whenever he likes. And he isn't lonely anymore. And then slowly, very slowly, he begins to forget about the toys and the play things that he had when he was a boy. And the little house he lived in. And even the mother and father that he once knew. Until one day, try as he might, he can't remember a single thing that came before.

[17:29] Mo Brady: Let's talk about this monologue. The angel monologue. This is a monologue that is in Children! Children! that initially Gwen is having trouble with. In part because the director that she's getting lots of notes from is saying, just sit there and say the lines. And she's used to giving the old razzle dazzle, as it were. And they tease her in rehearsal for it. They're like, oh, you want choreography? And everybody laughs. Oh yeah, she's like, just tell me how to say it and I'll say it. Poor girl. You can see that she just wants the solution, right?

[17:59] Aaron Albano: She's out of her element. And everyone knows it, including her.

[18:03] Mo Brady: Well, and that's when we get this great flashback sequence where we see young Gwen. We see the experience she has becoming a mother, choosing her career over her son and leaving her son behind, right?

[18:19] Aaron Albano: Yeah. But it's also like-

[18:21] Mo Brady: Do you think she's the angel in this story?

[18:25] Aaron Albano: 100%.

[18:26] Mo Brady: Okay.

[18:26] Aaron Albano: 100%. Her son isn't the angel.

[18:29] Mo Brady: Let's go through the angel in case anybody missed the whole story because they were distracted by the montage.

[18:35] Aaron Albano: In case you were like, I want to listen to Aaron talk about a monologue rather than hear Michelle Williams deliver a monologue.

[18:44] Mo Brady: Well, I will say, I had to rewind it a couple of times because it's the beauty and also the crutch of the filmed medium where I will be with you with an actor and listen to your words. But the second we get into montage land, I stopped listening and I just watched all the action on screen. So I was just like, oh, okay. The angel boy is probably her son. Going back and listening to it. So the story goes, angel boy is in heaven. For whatever reason, the other angels don't like him and don't play with him. So angel boy goes to animal heaven where the animals accept him and he can play forever. And it's so great that he forgets about his old life on earth and old life in people heaven. And he stays in animal heaven because that's where he's happiest.

[19:35] Mo Brady: And the episode ends with Gwen being at her opening for Can Can. And she gets called back out on stage.

[19:44] Aaron Albano: Whoever like calls her back out, she puts on a towel.

[19:47] Mo Brady: Michael Kidd, that's the choreographer.

[19:48] Aaron Albano: Is that Michael Kidd? Is that supposed to be Michael Kidd?

[19:50] Mo Brady: I missed it. I missed that whole thing.

[19:51] Aaron Albano: Played by Wayne Wilcox. Michael Kidd grabs her and is like, Gwen, come back out. And she's like, I'm naked. He hands her a towel, sends her back out. The audience is going wild for her. And you see the shift where she's like, this is where I'm meant to be.

[20:06] Mo Brady: Okay. So Broadway's animal heaven.

[20:09] Aaron Albano: I think so. Right?

[20:11] Mo Brady: Right.

[20:11] Aaron Albano: And in that sense, I'm like, if she's the boy angel and Broadway is animal heaven. I want that on a t-shirt, by the way. Broadway is animal heaven. I don't know what it means, but go to theensemblist.com slash merch for your chance to purchase a limited number of Broadway's animal heaven. But like, A, that's where I would argue that Bob may not know about the son. Because if she hasn't told anyone, because she has essentially forgotten or let go of her old life, then no one would know. B, she's in a play. She's out of her element. This unfamiliar element is bringing all of this up in her. It's reminding her of being a young mother in Culver City. And she's like, no, I want to go back to animal heaven.

I want to go back to the editing bay. Because her animal heaven was her escapist life. And art has brought her back to dealing with her truth. Art can be that powerful and bring you back. But arguably, it takes a toll on the artist producing that art. And Gwen has arguably, because she's so out of her element and so uncomfortable here, she has never had to deal with this truth. And the first thing she wants to do is escape back to where she's comfortable.

[21:29] Aaron Albano: Aaron, I feel like I just got smarter.

[21:39] Mo Brady: To keep up to date with next week's recap, be sure to watch episode four of Fosse/Verdon, Glory. You can find episodes on Hulu. The Ensemblist was produced today by me, Aaron Albano.

[21:49] Aaron Albano: And me, Mo Brady. There are two great ways you can be helping The Ensemblist right now. One is by leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And the second is by becoming a Patreon member at patreon.com slash The Ensemblist.

[22:02] Mo Brady: Please follow The Ensemblist wherever you listen to podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or at bpn.fm, the home of Broadway Podcast Network. You can also follow us on Instagram. Thanks for listening, everyone.

[22:14] Aaron Albano: Until next time.