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[0:00] Jamie DuMont: Welcome to the Fabulous Invalid, Broadway's podcast, where we present essential conversations with a curated roster of the best, most important, and innovative theater makers working today, from actors to writers, directors, designers, and everyone in between. We took our name from the title of a 1938 play by Kaufman and Hart that has since become a loving nickname for Broadway itself, always deemed on the verge of decline, yet always bouncing back, The Fabulous Invalid. I'm theater savant Jamie DuMont.

[0:35] Rob Russo: And I'm Rob Russo, writer and theater critic with Stage Left at NYC and host of Stage Left, the podcast, also on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:44] Jamie DuMont: So many hats.

[0:45] Rob Russo: A lot of hats.

[0:46] Jamie DuMont: Rob, with all the hats.

[0:47] Rob Russo: I know, and ironically, I don't really wear a lot of hats because of my hair. I can't.

[0:50] Jamie DuMont: I've never seen you in a hat.

[0:51] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[0:52] Jamie DuMont: I don't think, oh, no, I've seen you in a baseball cap.

[0:54] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[0:55] Jamie DuMont: We took a SoulCycle class once and you wore a baseball cap.

[0:58] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[0:59] Jamie DuMont: And I didn't recognize you when you were walking down the street.

[1:01] Rob Russo: I'll wear a hat sort of like off hours, you know, on the weekend.

[1:03] Jamie DuMont: On the weekend?

[1:04] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[1:05] Jamie DuMont: Is that how you say it?

[1:06] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[1:07] Jamie DuMont: It's the weekend.

[1:08] Rob Russo: Well, when I'm talking about hats, yes.

[1:09] Jamie DuMont: Okay.

[1:10] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[1:11] Jamie DuMont: All right. Well, does anyone still wear a hat?

[1:13] Rob Russo: There you go.

[1:14] Jamie DuMont: I had to get that out.

[1:15] Rob Russo: You had to. You had to. Well, today's a very special episode because—

[1:17] Jamie DuMont: You know, we say that every time.

[1:20] Rob Russo: We do say that every time, but this time we really mean it.

[1:23] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, this time it's true.

[1:24] Rob Russo: We were lying all those other times, but this time we really mean it because tonight Jerry Herman and Michael Stewart's beloved 1974 musical flop Mack and Mabel returns to the New York stage for the first time in 46 years.

[1:35] Jamie DuMont: Wow.

[1:36] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[1:37] Jamie DuMont: Which is kind of incredible.

[1:38] Rob Russo: It's very incredible, and as the first presentation in this year's Encores! series at New York City Center, Mack and Mabel also marks the first time Encores! has done a show by songwriter Jerry Herman, who passed away back in December at the age of 88. The same number of keys on a piano.

[1:54] Jamie DuMont: I love that fact. We learned that at the memorial service for him that was done at the Lunt-Fontaine. I wouldn't have put that together, because I'm not a musician. Of course there's 88 keys on a piano, but it just wouldn't have come to mind.

[2:07] Rob Russo: And then I went down this rabbit hole that there used to be a piano bar called 88's in New York, and then I was like, oh, that's what that meant, too. Suddenly your whole world opens up when you learn a factoid.

[2:17] Jamie DuMont: Right. Speaking of factoids, we have spent the past couple of weeks thoroughly enmeshed in all things Mack and Mabel, and we're thrilled to share with you interviews that we've done with Jack Viertel, who's the artistic director of Encores!, Francine Pascal, who's the sister of the late book writer Michael Stewart, who has shepherded revisions to the script to Mack and Mabel over the past 25 years, Rob Berman, who's the longtime musical director at Encores!, Josh Rhodes, who's the director of this new production that's premiering tonight, Douglas Sills and Alexandra Socha, who star as Mack Sennett and Mabel Normand, and Lilli Cooper, who co-stars as Hoofer Lottie Ames.

[2:57] Rob Russo: But before we get to those interviews and dive into all the fascinating history of this incredible show, we have two quick announcements to share.

[3:04] Jamie DuMont: First, Rob launched a new podcast back in January called Stage Left, the Podcast. Also a member of the Broadway Podcast Network, this bi-monthly podcast features lively and engaging conversations with New York's younger and underrepresented theater critics and journalists about the latest and most noteworthy productions on Broadway and beyond.

[3:26] Rob Russo: We love the beyond.

[3:27] Jamie DuMont: I love the beyond, because you've got some exciting things planned, and you've already done some of the beyond.

[3:33] Rob Russo: Each episode features an in-depth roundtable discussion with a rotating roster of guest panelists with the mission of broadening the cultural discussion to elevate and include diverse perspectives. You can find the podcast on iTunes and at bpn.fm backslash stage left.

[3:50] Jamie DuMont: Check it out. Please subscribe. Write a review. Like it. Love it. Do all those things.

[3:56] Rob Russo: Like it. Love it.

[3:58] Jamie DuMont: I love that.

[3:59] Rob Russo: Subscribe.

[4:00] Jamie DuMont: Subscribe.

[4:01] Rob Russo: Subscribe.

[4:02] Jamie DuMont: You want subscribers.

[4:03] Rob Russo: Subscribe.

[4:04] Jamie DuMont: And also write a review. Give us some stars, because that actually helps other people see it.

[4:06] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[4:07] Jamie DuMont: We also have a really exciting new partnership to announce. In this election year, we are in 2020, one of our favorite new things is Social Goods, which is an online store that offers a well-curated slate of statement-making merchandise that gives back to nonprofits that are tackling today's most pressing issues, from Every Town for Gun Safety to Planned Parenthood of New York, the Special Olympics, and more.

[4:31] Rob Russo: Best of all, as I said, we've partnered with Social Goods to offer a special discount for listeners of the Fabulous Invalid. So if you go to social-goods.com and use the code fab15, F-A-B-15, at checkout, you'll receive 15% off your first order.

[4:48] Jamie DuMont: That's Social Goods, where every transaction comes with real action.

[4:51] Rob Russo: I already have a sweatshirt.

[4:53] Jamie DuMont: And I already have a t-shirt.

[4:55] Rob Russo: So Social Goods, check them out. They're really, really cool.

[4:57] Jamie DuMont: It's a great website.

[4:59] Rob Russo: Yeah. Awesome.

[5:01] Jamie DuMont: Great. Well, should we get to the episode?

[5:05] Rob Russo: Let's do it.

[5:22] Jamie DuMont: Mack and Mabel, the musical, tells the true story of the offbeat romance between silent film director Max Sennett, inventor of the Keystone Cops and the Bathing Beauties, and silent film star Mabel Normand, who was one of the greatest actresses of the late 1910s and early 1920s, almost 100 years ago. The show, which is narrated by Mack as he reflects back on his life and career once talkies have become the rage, follows the pair from Mack's discovery of Mabel at his studios in Brooklyn, to their big successful move out to Hollywood, their on-again, off-again personal and artistic squabbles, and finally, and quite tragically, her descent into drug abuse and eventual death.

[5:59] Rob Russo: The idea to musicalize this true story came from a Hollywood producer and screenwriter who approached Jerry Herman with a pitch, then passed along the project. To do the show, Jerry reassembled the team behind the juggernaut of Hello, Dolly!, book writer Michael Stewart, director and choreographer Gower Champion, and producer David Merrick.

[6:16] Jamie DuMont: Oh, David Merrick. After an uncharacteristically long out-of-town tryout period, Mack and Mabel opened on Broadway at the Majestic Theatre on October 6, 1974, with Robert Preston as Mack Sennett, Bernadette Peters as Mabel Normand, and Lisa Kirk as Lottie Ames.

[6:33] Rob Russo: At a pivotal moment in Act II on opening night, a huge piece of scenery came crashing down, nearly crushing Kirk and several dancers. It was an eerie omen. The show received poor reviews in New York, producer David Merrick lost interest, and as sales dried up, it closed a mere seven weeks later, after only 66 performances, making way at the Majestic for that season's smash hit, The Wiz.

[6:56] Jamie DuMont: While some critics had nice things to say about the show, particularly Clive Barnes, they were mostly cool to the show, dismissing the score, heavily criticizing the book, Gower Champion's inability to capture the magic of the movies, which Jerry captures in the score without question, so that's a thing. And also Robin Wagner's stagnant set, while noting the 30-year age gap between Peters and Preston, and souring on the notes of irony and sad ending, which was very unusual for a Jerry Herman show.

[7:28] Rob Russo: Especially after Hello, Dolly! and Mame, people were expecting a jubilant show, and this has a sad ending.

[7:34] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, and I also think a lot of people didn't know who Mack Sennett and Mabel Normand were, so they weren't—

[7:40] Rob Russo: Sure.

[7:41] Jamie DuMont: They didn't necessarily see it coming. Like Mame, Dennis, I feel like people know that's a happy ending. And Auntie Mame had been on Broadway a decade earlier, so they were more familiar.

[7:49] Rob Russo: Well, still, despite all the criticisms, the American Theater Wing remembered Mack and Mabel that spring, and the show got eight Tony Award nominations for Best Musical, Director, Choreography, Costume Set, Peters and Preston's Performances, and even Michael Stewart's much criticized book, but no nomination for Jerry Herman's score, which is insane.

[8:10] Jamie DuMont: It's shocking. Especially if you look at the list of the nominees that year, they had to really dig deep to find other composers to nominate.

[8:18] Rob Russo: It felt intentional, like that they were going out of their way—

[8:20] Jamie DuMont: Like it was a bit of a fuck you.

[8:21] Rob Russo: Yeah, right?

[8:22] Jamie DuMont: Do you know who else was nominated that year?

[8:23] Rob Russo: Well, obviously Charlie Smalls for The Wiz, who won, but I don't know.

[8:26] Jamie DuMont: I don't know who else was nominated.

[8:27] Rob Russo: Yeah, because that was not a great year.

[8:29] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, I'm trying to think.

[8:30] Rob Russo: You can't even remember any of the musicals from that season, and that's kind of the joke. And we all listen to Mack and Mabel all the time, right?

[8:36] Jamie DuMont: Of course, of course.

[8:37] Rob Russo: Well, thankfully, we were able to do it because they did make an incredible cast recording, despite the fact that the show only ran 66 performances.

[8:43] Jamie DuMont: Which you're going to hear a bit of a bit later, but the failure of Mack and Mabel really broke Jerry Herman's heart, so much so that he packed up and he moved to Hollywood, planning to stop composing altogether and focus on his other passion, interior design, which he sort of was known for his incredible—

[9:01] Rob Russo: He was going to school to be an interior decorator, and before, his mother was like, okay, Jerry, you've got to give this composing thing a try.

[9:08] Jamie DuMont: Oh, thank God.

[9:09] Rob Russo: Thank God she did. Well, this show, Mack and Mabel, was resigned to being forgotten until British ice skating team of Torvill and Dean won a gold medal at the 1984 Olympics by skating to the overture from the original cast album.

[9:24] Jamie DuMont: That album really paid dividends.

[9:26] Rob Russo: I'm old enough to remember Torvill and Dean.

[9:28] Jamie DuMont: There you go.

[9:29] Rob Russo: There you go. Well, suddenly, on the heels of their win, that album became a bestseller, prompting new interest in the show that led to a charity concert in London in 1988 and a fully-fledged West End revival in 1995 that fixed many of the show's perceived faults and became a certified success.

[9:45] Jamie DuMont: In his memoir, Jerry Herman considers Mack and Mabel to be his fourth hit after Hello, Dolly!, Mame, and La Cage aux Folles. But still, despite all that, Mack and Mabel has not played New York since it closed on November 30th, 1974.

[10:01] Rob Russo: And that changes tonight.

[10:02] Jamie DuMont: I'm so excited.

[10:03] Rob Russo: So am I. Jamie and I have been talking about this since the show was announced, frankly, that they were doing it in this season, but we've spent the last month, basically, interviewing folks involved in the production.

[10:16] Jamie DuMont: It's been really illuminating.

[10:17] Rob Russo: Our first stop was the cozy office of Jack Viertel at Jude Jampson, which incidentally is a couple of doors down from the famous all-red office of Mack and Mabel producer David Merrick.

[10:28] Jamie DuMont: These things just keep kind of happening, don't they?

[10:30] Rob Russo: It's a sign.

[10:31] Jamie DuMont: It's a sign. Which, that office is atop the St. James Theater. In addition to his role as Senior Vice President at Jude Jampson, which owns and operates five theaters on Broadway, Jack has been the Artistic Director of the Tony Award-honored Encores! series at City Center since 2000.

[10:46] Rob Russo: Why did you pick Mack and Mabel to be the first show of your final season at Encores?

[10:50] Jack Viertel: Well, we were fortunate in that we got the rights to Mack and Mabel, which we'd been trying to do for probably 10 or 15 years. And so once we were able to secure the rights, it just became, yes, let's do this one. I had spoken to Jerry Herman several times about doing one of his shows at Encores, and he was never particularly enthusiastic about the idea. He never saw an Encores, I don't think. He lived in Miami, and he rarely came to New York, and he wasn't well. But he did grant us permission to do two songs from Mack and Mabel in a show, a compilation show that we did called Hey, Look Me Over, and Francine Pascal, who is the sister of Mike Stewart, who wrote the book for Mack and Mabel, came to see it and was impressed and called Jerry in Florida and said, you know, we should let them do this show.

They could probably do a pretty good job on this show. So I'm hoping we will. But once that happened and Jerry sort of relented and said, OK, you know, let them try, we snapped it up as soon as we could because we've been chasing it for all these years.

[11:59] Rob Russo: Did you see the show in 1974?

[12:01] Jack Viertel: I saw it trying out at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion, which was its second stop on a very long tryout tour. I think David Merrick thought, who was producing it, thought that he could make some of the money back on the road because it was Robert Preston and it was back at Jerry Herman, and you know, there was a lot to sell. So it opened in San Diego and then went to L.A. and then to St. Louis and then to D.C. and then finally landed in New York, and I saw it on the second stop.

[12:30] Rob Russo: I was reading Jerry Herman's memoir and he said the show was never better than it was on opening night in Los Angeles.

[12:34] Jack Viertel: In Los Angeles, yes.

[12:37] Rob Russo: So you lucked out.

[12:38] Jack Viertel: I didn't see it here.

[12:47] Jack Viertel: I don't remember it being that way in Los Angeles. Well, I think that a lot happened to the show on the road that probably didn't help. There was never a real meeting of minds among Gower Champion, Jerry Herman, Mike Stewart, and David Merrick as to what the show should actually be. So we were in the mid-seventies. We were sort of into the Sondheim era, and you couldn't really just do Hello, Dolly! anymore. And so Mack & Mabel was kind of a tragic story about silent comedy, which is a very hard needle to thread, you know. And the serious elements of it and the tragic elements of it and the sort of showbiz elements of it just never quite coalesced to tell a convincing story that really moved people in a deep way.

I think they wanted to. I think Gower Champion had his own issues about wanting to be taken more seriously than just as a showman. I think Jerry was very happy to be a showman and proved it in writing the score. And it just, it was somehow the wrong thing for all of these people to be working on together.

[14:08] Jamie DuMont: Do you think or maybe hope that since we are now 40 years removed from that sort of Sondheim revolution, that audiences will be more receptive to a story that is so offbeat and kind of a tragic, sad love story?

[14:26] Jack Viertel: I think audiences will have no trouble with that at all. I also think one can't underestimate the fact that after Mike died, Francine Pascal began to write with Jerry's blessing, write some revisions to the show to try to clarify some of the things that were, and deepen some of the things that were sort of at odds with each other in the show as it currently existed. And Gower Champion was no longer involved. I mean, not to blame anybody for any of this, but it just got simpler. It was just Jerry and Francine. So I think it's actually a better show now than it was then.

[15:02] Jamie DuMont: What do you think it is about the show that captured the imagination of generations of people considering that it wasn't successful and it only played 66 performances?

[15:12] Jack Viertel: I think, you know, the score is so good and it's sort of, in a way, the last of those big brassy Jerry Herman. I mean, he wrote shows after that, but then, you know, La Cage aux Folles has a somewhat different sound to it and The Grand Tour doesn't quite measure up to his best work, I don't think, as he was one of the first to admit. This one sounds like a hit show. It just sounds so much like a hit show that you can't believe it wasn't a hit show if you just put the album on, if you just throw the CD into your CD player. And I think the fact that it wasn't is fascinating to people. I think there's actually an element of mystery surrounding it. Like, how could this not have worked? And I think people like that kind of mystery.

You know, Mame is a tremendously popular Jerry Herman show, but I don't think anyone has questions about Mame. They just remember that that was a hit show. This one is like, what's in this box when you open the box? You know, what's inside here? And I think it's one of the things that Encores! has the privilege of doing, is opening the box. And, you know, we don't really try to fix or change these shows in a dramatic way, so you're not seeing some 2019 artist's idea of how to make this into some different show. You're more or less seeing what the audience saw back then and able to judge it on those merits.

[16:40] Jamie DuMont: Well, I'm grateful to you for opening that box, because my experience with the show is exactly what you've described. I downloaded the overture as a teen and was like, oh my God, this is so good. What is this show? And I've been dying to see it ever since.

[16:55] Jack Viertel: Yeah. Well, there's a secret about the overture, but I'm not going to tell it to you.

[16:59] Jamie DuMont: Okay. Well, what's something, speaking of secrets, that you've learned over the course of working on the show that you think most fans of it might not know?

[17:11] Jack Viertel: There's a beating heart inside the show about some issues that I think were actually issues for the creators of the show. I mean, it's a show about a very narcissistic guy who doesn't have time for romance and a very vulnerable woman who needs someone to support her in some way or other because of her own background and what she's been through. And I think that it spoke to the creators in a way that a lot of people who are in show business because they need the love that they didn't get anyplace else because they need to prove themselves in ways that are public as opposed to being a great accountant or a great lawyer. I think the show spoke very deeply to the people who were making it, but so deeply that each of them was seeing it through his or her own lens.

Well, in those days it was just his, but I think that'll affect people who think about it that way. Like how much Jerry Herman is in this show? How much Gower Champion is in these characters? It's a showbiz musical. I mean, it's about movies, not theater, but the entertainment world is full of people with those kinds of challenges in their own personalities.

[18:32] Jamie DuMont: I think there's a very good argument to be made that Gower Champion and Mack Sennett share some characteristics and also maybe even David Merrick.

[18:40] Jack Viertel: Yeah, I mean, I met David Merrick once, but I didn't know any of those people at all.

[18:46] Jamie DuMont: Well, I never met Gower Champion, but yeah, I think, you know, I'm sure you're right. I'm sure that as they worked on this show, they were not even thinking to themselves, but they were unconsciously or subconsciously putting themselves into these characters.

[19:01] Jack Viertel: Yeah, I think it'd be hard not to in a certain way, but we will never know.

[19:07] Jamie DuMont: So why do you think it is that it's been 46 years since this show was seen in New York?

[19:15] Jack Viertel: I don't know the answer to that. I mean, I think that I'm surprised that no one has done a real concert version of it in New York, you know, for a gala or something. I think I understand why there hasn't been a commercial revival of it, because there's never been a version of it that would actually probably draw a wide enough audience to, you know, at high prices for a long run. It is a curiosity in some ways, and it is not a masterpiece. It's a fascinating thing that almost works. And in some ways, it does work. And in some ways, I don't know whether it can be made to work, but, you know, it's not an instantaneously revivable show from a commercial point of view.

[20:03] Jamie DuMont: Do you have a favorite moment or song in the show?

[20:08] Jack Viertel: I, you know, I vacillate back and forth between the up numbers and the ballads, but I actually think, and I'm an up number person generally speaking, and I think Look What Happened to Mabel is a fantastic song, but I actually think the most beautifully crafted song in the show is Time Heals Everything, which I just heard a couple of days ago, there was the Jerry Herman memorial, because we lost him at the end of the year. And listening to that lyric, and the music is so beautifully composed, and not, you know, one thinks of Jerry Herman as sort of a tunesmithy guy. He was a very, very good composer. And very, the music is, I was thinking about it as I was walking back, the music is, he idolized Irving Berlin, and I think the music expresses that.

He is, the music is so open-hearted and so unguarded that it does, it makes him unique in that pantheon of composers of that period. They're not, those are not the only virtues that a composer can have, but he had them in a way that nobody else had them. And as a result, I think he hasn't been taken as seriously as he should have been. And Time Heals Everything is just one of the great standard ballads of the American songbook. The lyric, the music, the pace of it, the way it marches toward its conclusion, it's just a fantastic song.

[21:38] Jack Viertel: Time heals everything, Tuesday, Thursday. Time heals everything, April, August. If I'm patient, the break will mend. And one fine morning, the hurt will end.

[22:09] Jamie DuMont: We've got no disagreement from us. We were just talking about it on the way over here. That was almost the exact conversation we were having to ourselves about how complicated his music really is, and also how he says in his memoir that that song is often not, oftentimes, people singing it don't really understand how to sing that song. It's actually much harder to sing than people think.

[22:33] Jack Viertel: I agree.

[22:34] Jamie DuMont: Is there a takeaway you'd like audiences to have from this production of Mack & Mabel that's about to open?

[22:40] Jack Viertel: I saw it. I actually saw what Mack & Mabel is. I didn't see some approximation of it. I didn't see some concert rendering of the songs. I didn't see it with a four-piece combo and a cast of six. I saw Mack & Mabel. And I think for a lot of people who have waited a long time to see it, they will actually feel like it's too bad they were born too late or whatever for the Broadway production, but now they've seen it in its glory and with its challenges. And that is one of the great gifts of Encores! It's the gift we try to give every time we do one.

[23:18] ♪ Musical number: "Overture" — performed by the Original Cast ♪

[23:26] Jamie DuMont: After meeting with Jack, Jamie and I headed a couple blocks north in Midtown to the living room of celebrated author Francine Pascal, the sister of Mack & Mabel's late book writer, Michael Stewart. In addition to penning the Sweet Valley series of young adult novels, Francine collaborated with her brother, Mike, as she calls him, on the book to the 1968 musical George M. In the years since his sudden passing in 1987, she's worked on revisions to his original book to Mack & Mabel, continuing right up to the opening night of a new production at City Center this evening.

[24:19] Jamie DuMont: Your brother, Michael Stewart, wrote the original book to Mack & Mabel.

[24:23] Francine Pascal: Yes.

[24:24] Jamie DuMont: What do you remember about him first telling you about this show?

[24:28] Francine Pascal: Well, actually, it was not a wonderful experience the way the trio, Jerry, Gower, and Mike had done so well on Dolly. I mean, it just wasn't the same. Gower, from what I understand, was in a difficult time in his life and kind of depressed. Jerry and Mike said the stage presentation was a brown box and they hated it. I'm afraid it's just one of those things that they just didn't work that well together, the three people who worked brilliantly together. Mike's books were always brilliantly structured. He once said to me, which is a kind of interesting thing, he said to me, the book of a musical...

[25:33] Francine Pascal: It's like an invisible track, and that's what you follow. You don't see it, but it's there, and it's made of steel. Your brother Michael Stewart and Jerry Herman sort of talked about doing a revision of the book and the show kind of early on, right?

[25:48] Rob Russo: After it opened so badly, yes. And do you know why that never happened?

[25:57] Francine Pascal: Well, when something like that happens and it's a failure and it was what's called a flop, it takes you some time to get over that. You're not going to jump right back in. It's not like it was out of town and you can rewrite it. You leave it alone, you never want to see it again in your life and that sort of thing. So, it's not unusual that it just was quietly lying in some corner. After Mike died, Jerry did go to some very good librettists, and I don't know why he wasn't pleased or maybe they didn't want to do it. I don't know. All I know is that in 1995, just about 1994 probably, we began talking about it. He asked me what I thought. At that point, I became seriously involved, but the first thing I did was to research it.

I really didn't know anything more than anybody knows about Mack and Mabel. I knew for one thing that Mack had to be more likable. He had to be able to love. Mabel had to become a woman, and you had to hear what was going on in his life. Well, you did in the original, but it was so angry and hard. I wanted a softer, and I also wanted to hear Mabel. Both of them had this one thing in common and really held them, and they loved to make people laugh. They really did. So keep the schmaltz and the suds and the sobs. The only art we know is to tickle the slobs. This curse we've been blessed with, completely possessed with is, we want to make the world laugh!

[28:01] Jamie DuMont: Jerry, his music is so fabulously up and happy. Not that he doesn't have, because I think he's written one of the best love songs, painful love songs, heartbroken love songs that I've ever heard. Time heals everything. If you look at those words and even forget the music, you look at those words, it just grabs you and you gasp. It was just so perfect.

[29:27] Rob Russo: Do you have a takeaway that you want audiences to get from this production of Mack and Mabel at Encores!?

[29:32] Francine Pascal: Yes, I want them to know how, what a deep love affair this was. How much they loved each other. It killed them both. I mean, it didn't kill him because he lived on, but with a piece of a life, not enough.

[30:16] Rob Russo: Following our chat with Francine, Rob and I trekked over to New York City Center to meet with Douglas Sills and Alexandra Socha, who were starring as Mack Sennett and Mabel Normand. During their lunch break, on their second day of rehearsals, we sat down in a small studio backstage. If you listen closely during the interview, you'll hear the music of Tchaikovsky's score of Swan Lake in the background. At Encores! Hey Look Me Over concert in 2018, we got a little glimpse of about, I don't know, 10 to 15 minutes of Mack and Mabel. How does it feel to now get to do a full production?

[30:40] Douglas Sills: Exciting and scary. It was so much easier when you only had to memorize one song and five lines. And now we have to remember so much more.

[30:54] Alexandra Socha: So much more.

[30:58] Rob Russo: Well, Encores! is a bit of a whirlwind, right? You have, what, 10 days of rehearsal or something crazy like that?

[31:04] Alexandra Socha: It is. Our director, Josh Rhodes, is saying it's like summer stock except the New York Times comes to review you. No pressure at all. So yeah, but it is. It's a whirlwind, which is fun in many ways because you just have to do it and it's a lot of instinct and everybody has to just band together and put it up and whatever. But obviously when it's a show you really like or an experience you're particularly excited for, you're always like, oh, I wish this would last a little bit longer.

[31:37] Douglas Sills: But yes, I agree 100%. I mean, it's exciting to get to do it, but you always wish you had more time.

[31:45] Alexandra Socha: You can do things beforehand. Yes, we met up a couple times beforehand just to work through the script with Josh and ask some of the bigger questions then, you know, in our private unpaid time before rehearsal.

[31:59] Douglas Sills: Nothing like volunteering that time.

[32:04] Alexandra Socha: Exactly. But that's, yeah, we took some initiative there because we have known for a long time and that way it did cut down on what we needed to talk about in the room as we are now building it. But everything gets heightened because Jerry passed, right?

[32:18] Douglas Sills: Of course. And I think everyone also feels that Jerry hasn't really had his due in the city, which probably has a lot of reasons. So it creates even more eagerness to open the present and let everybody celebrate him with a full production of one of his shows since his passing. So that's kind of nice.

[32:38] Alexandra Socha: And we have this script that has been controversial since they started, right? So that's something for us to talk about. It's not like Shakespeare, which is down and everybody's done it and everybody accepts it as it is and you can cut it if you want. But so, you know, that's some of the difficulty that we encounter.

[33:04] Douglas Sills: Yes. And you're looking at the script through the lens of 2020 too, right? So it's a script that's been adapted slightly, but it's also, you're looking at it 40, nearly 50 years later.

[33:18] Alexandra Socha: Right. Although I don't, you speak to that. You're a female, you speak to that.

[33:25] Douglas Sills: I'm maybe not always the best female to talk to in these situations because I find it interesting sometimes to look back and see the ways in which certain stories were portrayed, especially in a setting like this. And to see what they were getting at, because actually there's so much in this show that's so empowering. Mabel's song, Wherever He Ain't is such an incredible moment of discovery of this woman realizing she needs to think for herself and act for herself. So I actually don't see anything that problematic. What I see is a relationship that happens all the time and still happens. I mean, you know, the director or the more powerful man finding like his muse in this woman he loves. I mean, a star is born.

They redid A Star Is Born last year and we were all cool with it. So I think it's a story we see all the time, have seen all the time. And there's so much in these two people who are so intertwined in the way that they love each other, but they love each other's talent and they love the thing that they make together. I just think they're always struggling with how much of us is us and how much is us because of what we are creating every day. And that has no time stamp on it. And that can always be, you know, always be quote unquote relevant, which is like my least favorite word in the theater canon, because it's human beings screwing up and who love each other but can't make it work. And when has that ever not been something people are dealing with?

So I think there's a lot. I think what I love about the script and about the story that Jerry and Michael Stewart were writing is that they were trying to get at something. And I think they were a bit trapped by Jerry's previous successes being a bit lighter shows and Jerry's sort of writing this very joyful music and them sort of trying to negotiate how dark they could go and in what ways. But I think their original goal was very interesting.

[36:20] ♪ Musical number: "I Won't Send Roses" — performed by Douglas Sills ♪

[36:58] Alexandra Socha: There's so much about the time where, you know, this starts in 1911 and things were different and people acted differently. And I don't think we need to somehow pretend for our today selves that they didn't act in certain ways, you know, because then that's actually not truthful.

[37:16] Douglas Sills: Well, look, a good story is a good story. It either works or it doesn't, and who cares what year it is? Either you've gotten to the core of it and it has the basic elements of a good story and it's compelling and engaging or it's not. If somebody came and pitched this story and we were on the board of something, you'd go, well, that milieu sounds really rich and interesting. We don't know a ton about that. How do you load the fit? What is the camera look? How did they shoot it? How did they speed up the fit? Who was financing? How did they move? There's so much interesting stuff about the technology and the taste of the day. And that's always fun for actors. So yeah, it's really rich and you get these two wild people that crossed paths and needed each other. And then events, you know, challenges and obstacles came in and some of which were external and some of which were interior. And that's really...

[38:20] Rob Russo: And then you have Jerry's incredible music.

[38:28] Jamie DuMont: So that all the layers of cake and frosting go together, right? And until we sort of hear this glorious orchestra, until you get in there and start eating the cake from the inside, to land with a metaphor way too much. Now I want a piece of cake.

[38:51] Rob Russo: There you go. And Swanson and Keith and Ressler and William S. Hart. No one pretended that what we were doing was art. We had some guts and some luck, but we were just making a buck. Movies were movies were movies when I ran the show.

[39:23] Rob Russo: Those are some of the things, you know, I walk into this production with and a great opportunity to begin with. I mean, come on, this is the place. It's high pressure because everybody in New York comes and everybody respects this place and it's a great opportunity to do something where everybody has such a high bar because everybody's trying to honor everyone else's work in the room. You know, there's nothing like an ensemble in New York City. It's just magic. They just put something together so fast that is so attractive and interesting and exacting and it makes you want to do better work too. And then you have this sort of lightning magic and there's none of this, well, how much are you getting paid? And how long am I going to do this? And what does my dressing room look like? Because we're only doing it for, you know, you're in, you're out. And so that's sort of...

[40:20] Douglas Sills: And I got to do that other production with Jerry, so I did get to spend some time with him and he was just this, you know, he's just really sweet. Looking forward to hearing his stuff again. Do you both have a favorite moment in the show so far?

[40:33] Douglas Sills: I'm excited to get to "Wherever He Ain't." I'm very excited to stage that because I think Josh Rhodes' vision for it is really smart and strays from the original concept but I think in a helpful storytelling way. And so I just can't wait for us to dive into that, I guess.

[40:55] ♪ Musical number: "Wherever He Ain't" — performed by Douglas Sills ♪

[41:42] Douglas Sills: You know what's interesting for me is I think to muscularize wherever possible the relationship with Alexandra on stage and so that's what's most intriguing to me and find out where Mac's vulnerabilities are and what's motivating him because it's really... it would be easy to just kind of go ra-ra-ra-ra-ra-ra-ra-ra you're a bad person but I'm important and you're not and I mean that's okay I guess but I think what's more interesting is using the time you have to have there's heat at the core that generates out from this attraction and repulsion and this kind of nuclear fusion at the middle would radiate out and cause all the other things to happen. So we were working on a scene today and that's interesting to me to find out where Mac is vulnerable to her, why, how she seeps into his skin, what is the magnetism that pulls him towards her inexorably even when it's painful.

And then we've talked at length about this, about the narration and that Mac exists in two time frames. He's in the story as he's telling it and then he steps out sometimes and that's challenging because for storytelling you're stepping outside, you're telling a story, you want them to believe in it, you want them to get involved and invested and then you step outside and I think that's a... it can be a marvelous device but it can also cost you.

[43:26] Rob Russo: I think Swan Lake is rehearsing right next to us. I think Matthew Bourne's Swan Lake is rehearsing and we just start hearing a recording of Tchaikovsky. It's very dramatic. You might be hearing it too. I'm not sure if you can hear it, you're not having a stroke. That's the best part about rehearsing at City Center; there's always some incredible artists, other artists working here.

[43:50] Douglas Sills: At first I thought, well they've really re-orchestrated Mac and me and as it kept going I thought, oh no, there's some Schwan's done. It's very Slavic.

[44:02] Rob Russo: Well he's vulnerable and he's in another country and he's in minor key.

[44:06] Douglas Sills: Well you just touched on something that's so interesting. I went back and did something that probably neither of you would ever want to do, but I read all the reviews throughout the years of this show from 1974. I'll do that when we're done to the 80s, over the years. And of course there's always been this albatross hanging over the show, oh it's the book, the book's the problem. And even in Jerry Herman's memoir, he talks about how they had a really hard time navigating these characters because on one level they're perceived as somewhat unlovable and it's hard to do a musical where the characters at the heart of it aren't necessarily ones you'd want to spend time with. But I know that there have been changes to the book over the years and obviously you're cognizant of the fact that the book is something that people have taken umbrage with. So when you're approaching it, are you mindful of that or are you just trying to give it as much humanity as you can?

[45:04] Douglas Sills: The second thing, yeah, tone is important for the period. Tone is important for what else it was competing with at the time. Yes, I mean, you know, who's in the president's office versus what was going on five years ago. Our expectations, our taste for entertainment, everything has shifted as a result of what's going on in the world.

[45:35] Rob Russo: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, you know, I actually I can't remember now, was there something going on when it was done originally? Was he too old? Was there a strike? I don't know what it was competing with. You know, who knows? Are there... does it appear that there are more comprehensive or stable books like Gypsy or whatever? Sure. Would this benefit from a real thorough time? Maybe, maybe. But it doesn't help us in this situation. Our time is so limited that you're not gonna be helped. So am I cognizant of remarks that the book has weaknesses? Yeah, sure. Are we talking sometimes in rehearsal like, oh, could we maybe... and what is he saying here? Yeah, it's not like there's nothing to dig into.

Like, yes, agreed, there's been work over the years of how to streamline it all better because I think what we've sort of ended up with is this sort of Frankenstein script from a few different versions and also figuring out, you know, there were different characters and different, you know, the very original, it's like someone named Wally and then it becomes Fatty Arbuckle and then Josh Rhodes realized that like in all these different scenes there was always like a random comic and then he was like one time there was a guy named Freddy so he was like, alright, I'm just gonna make a character named Freddy and he cast Evan Kasperzak and this incredible dancer and performer and he's like, I'm gonna use him as the comic who does all the slapstick and that's what we're gonna do.

So I think there's a lot of... I think there's been so many versions and so much work over the years that we're pulling from a lot of different pieces and trying to take the best from each one and again, make a Frankenstein. Again, with limited time, you can't spend too much time thinking about those flaws. You kind of say, you know, stay in your own lane, this is my job, make this part work, make it flow from the inside, make it, you know, your sketch but make it as ingrained and organic as you can and yet still fill up the space and the style of the time. It's not Next to Normal, you know what I mean? It's not... it's not kitchen sink realism, you know, it has size and scope. I mean, there's like... it feels like there's like 18 production numbers that I think Josh is working on figuring out how to not, you know, and that's again, talking about Jerry Herman.

I mean, he was forced by producers to make a couple big production numbers. "When Mabel Comes in the Room" was not in the show originally and was it David Merrick who would have said it? I don't know, but was like, you gotta write the big song about her because he had Mame, he had Hello Dolly, he's like, you gotta write... so it's this beautiful song but it becomes this gigantic production number and we've just been noticing that some of that... it's more if you scale back on some of that a little bit, it fits more with what's going on in the story and makes the things in the book that are interesting and successful stand out more when you're not sort of coding it in spectacle. We're so early too, we don't know when you start the race and you have to cross the finish line here and they tell you, you know in scene two you're gonna have to sing this song and this key and this is over here and this is over here, it's the running that you're gonna learn about how to carry yourself through what is the scope, what is the speed, how high do the emotions get, can you sort of... can you do this? Is there any room for this? And no, probably not, but you might want to start there in rehearsal.

[49:20] Rob Russo: Listen, you know what it is? Well we should let you go cross that finish line. I know you guys have to get to rehearsal so I want to thank you for sitting down and chatting with us and we cannot wait to see you on the stage.

[49:32] Jamie DuMont: Thank you so much. Jamie and I swung by a press event at City Center where we had a chance to chat briefly with Lilli Cooper who co-stars with Douglas and Alexandra as Lottie Ames. I was wondering if you could tell us about your character Lottie and how she fits into the story of Mack and Mabel.

[49:46] Lilli Cooper: So Lottie is a vaudeville hoofer. She's a tap dancer and Mac said it and her worked on movies in Brooklyn before they sort of got big and famous and moved to LA. So she really sort of started from the ground up with Senate Pictures. So you're sort of like the sage in the group, the pro.

[50:05] Jamie DuMont: So you just mentioned there's a lot of tap dancing associated with your role. How do you... how to background in tap before taking this on?

[50:14] Lilli Cooper: Yeah, so I actually started dancing as a kid and I have never actually really danced professionally or on Broadway, so I'm really excited to show off some chops that I haven't been able to flex in many years. So I was very sort of scared and intimidated at first but I'm really happy to get to do it.

[50:32] Jamie DuMont: Did the tap come back right away?

[50:33] Lilli Cooper: It kind of did. It's like riding a bike; it's always in your body.

[50:36] Jamie DuMont: That's great.

[50:37] Lilli Cooper: Yeah, it is, it's great.

[50:39] Jamie DuMont: And you have sort of the two signature...

[50:42] Lilli Cooper: Yes.

[50:43] Jamie DuMont: ...big time.

[50:45] Lilli Cooper: Which is the classic...

[50:46] Jamie DuMont: Go in there song.

[50:47] Lilli Cooper: Absolutely.

[50:48] Jamie DuMont: Our travel song.

[50:49] Lilli Cooper: Right.

[50:50] Jamie DuMont: Travel song.

[50:51] Lilli Cooper: And then "Tap Your Troubles Away."

[50:52] Jamie DuMont: Yeah. So what was your relationship with the show before this production?

[50:54] Lilli Cooper: I had heard some of the music. I did a Jerry Herman sort of tribute concert a few years back but I never really knew the story of...

[51:36] Jamie DuMont: And the lyrics are so clever.

[51:38] Rob Russo: Oh, it's so clever.

[51:38] Jamie DuMont: I love those lyrics.

[51:39] Rob Russo: Yeah, yeah, it's hilarious. It's really hilarious.

[51:41] Jamie DuMont: Your boss just gave you the axe.

[51:45] Rob Russo: There's years of back tax you simply can't pay.

[51:51] Jamie DuMont: If a sky full of crap always lands in your lap, make a curtsy and tap your troubles away.

[52:01] Rob Russo: So as folks prepare to see the show, what do you hope is the one thing that they take away from Mack & Mabel?

[52:10] Jamie DuMont: Um, I hope that we can tribute the late Jerry Herman, and I hope that the audience enjoys the music and the story of these two people who really started the film industry.

[52:28] Rob Russo: At that press event, we also got to speak with director and choreographer Josh Rhodes, who has taken the helm for this landmark production at Encores!.

[52:35] Jamie DuMont: So you are helming, directing and choreographing this landmark revival, right?

[52:40] Josh Rhodes: No pressure, no pressure.

[52:41] Rob Russo: How did you come to be associated with this production?

[52:43] Josh Rhodes: Um, I literally got a call from Jack Viertel. That was it. And I remember just almost dropping my phone. I was so excited. I was like, oh my God. And you know what I did? Because I'm a geek. I went out and not went out, but I have it, of course. Of course, I have the album on my phone. I put it in my ear and listened to it and just like cried. Because I was like, oh my God, I get to be in the room where she sings "Wherever He Ain't." I mean, the score is so good.

[53:18] Rob Russo: Was that the moment listening to the album that stuck out to you the most, "Wherever He Ain't"?

[53:22] Josh Rhodes: Well, that's always been one of my faves. I always have also loved "Look What Happened to Mabel." But it's funny when you love a score, but then when you listen to it again, when someone gives you the gift and says, you get to stage it, you listen to it in a different way. And so you hear the orchestration differently. You hear the plot differently. You hear everything. And so it's just, it's thrilling for someone to hand you that. And a little daunting. But most of all, the musical theater geek in me just gets excited because I love the score. I love old musicals. I love that we get, I love the mission here. So it's to be part of it, to be part of helping people see the show again. If I can be a small part of that, that's amazing.

[54:10] Rob Russo: So what can you share with us about your vision for this production specifically?

[54:15] Josh Rhodes: My mantra is, it's a show about movies, but the way we're doing it. And this might sound pretty simple, but it's about making movies. It isn't about movies. It's about making movies. What was their life making this? And so the romance is really framed on a movie set and in a studio, in a movie studio. And because it's Encores!, you sort of want to pare everything down to its absolute kernel of what makes it valid. And I think at the end of the day, it's just a story that he's telling in his head in his movie studio the day before he loses it, the night before he loses it. So that in Encores! is actually kind of doable. Give or take 30 people and some costumes and a lot of dance numbers.

[55:08] Jamie DuMont: And 12 days.

[55:09] Josh Rhodes: And 12 days. Yeah. Yeah, 12 days. So we are frantically chewing away at it. I keep saying it's like this huge meal that we just can't eat at all. But we're really just trying to honor the material, pull out as much emotion and drama out of it as we can, because we've got the actors. I mean, when you've got Douglas and Alexandra, it feels like what we can bring to people who really don't know the story or the book, two really good actors delivering the tragic love story and really carving out time for that and really giving them air after all these production numbers, letting those two really land that. That's my goal, so that you can really fall into Mack and Mabel.

[55:57] Rob Russo: Which is so fantastic, because everybody knows the score, but people don't know the book. They don't know the story. So you are giving an opportunity for people to rediscover something in a new way.

[56:08] Josh Rhodes: Yeah. Most of the people, a lot of the dancers and the people who join the show, they always go, whoa, I had no idea. Because they got the job too, not knowing the show. And then they read the script and go, huh, I had no idea that's how the show ended. It is a tragic love story. It gets dark. And it's theatrical. It's boldly theatrical. Sometimes, firmly using theatrical irony to tell the story, you've got to tap your troubles away and things like that. That's really bold and modern for when they wrote it. It's kind of crazy when you think about that. I had never personally experienced Jerry Herman treated with the irony of Kander and Ebb. But there are moments in the show that are like that.

I hope we honor the score, because I think it's one of the greats. And I want people to walk away with that. And I hope that they realize that they were really bold. And even though it didn't have a wonderful first run, I hope that at least we honor it enough for people to recognize these were greats creating this. And even though it wasn't a hit, they were great. And I hope that we can showcase enough of that so that people can walk away and go, yeah, it was created by geniuses that didn't quite get the big one that time. It didn't turn into Hello Dolly. But that doesn't make it bad. It's just if I could walk away with people going, all right, well done, Michael Stewart and Jerry Herman and Gower Champion. They birthed this thing a long time ago. And if we can push it forward for the future, that would be great.

[58:27] Rob Russo: The last interview we'll share with you was with Rob Berman, who has served as the musical director of Encores! since 2008. On that second day of rehearsal, we sat down with Rob in a rehearsal room backstage at City Center.

[58:50] Jamie DuMont: Jerry Herman considered Mack and Mabel to be his favorite score. How would you rank it? In terms of both Herman and just the musical theater canon?

[59:00] Rob Berman: Well, I always thought that Mack and Mabel was sort of the most Jerry Hermany of Jerry Herman scores. And I mean that as a total compliment. I mean, it's the joyfulness, the sunshine in the melodies, the incredible earworms, the melodic hooks. So it's brassy. It's his brassiest score, for sure. And it also has incredible ballads. I mean, "I Won't Send Roses" is such a beautiful, beautiful song. And Alexandra gets to sing "Time Heals Everything," which is a very sophisticated song. And so it's just... I do love the score to Mame, I will confess. I conducted it at the St. Louis Muni in 2005, starring Dee Hody. Anyway, it was very fun. That's a really, really fun score. That's a show we've never been able to get permission to do here at up to this point.

[59:59] Rob Russo: It would be great if you could.

[1:00:01] Rob Berman: Well, I know. But Mack and Mabel is our first Jerry Herman score at Encores! Letting our great orchestra dig into these great songs and great orchestrations.

[1:00:16] Jamie DuMont: How many people in the orchestra?

[1:00:18] Rob Berman: On this show, I think we have 28.

[1:00:22] Jamie DuMont: 28.

[1:00:23] Rob Berman: And was it originally orchestrated for a larger orchestra or for 28?

[1:00:29] Rob Berman: No, we probably have a few more violins than they had originally. So actually, we're a little bit bigger than they were.

[1:00:34] Jamie DuMont: Excellent.

[1:00:35] Rob Berman: Because we can add strings when we want, which is very nice. Thank you, City Center.

[1:00:39] Jamie DuMont: Well, speaking of orchestrations, I've often wondered, and since I have the opportunity to talk to you, an expert in this, we need to ask, how integral do you think Philip J. Lang's orchestrations are to the sound of Jerry Herman, to what we think of when we think of Jerry Herman? Is it Don Pippin and Phil Lang that are...

[1:01:02] Rob Berman: I think they both had definitely a contribution to what we think of as that sound, the way that Jonathan Tunick and Stephen Sondheim has that relationship, which is... Don Pippin, by the way, yes, for sure. He did not... I don't believe he did Hello, Dolly! But starting with Mame, he was Jerry Herman's music director, La Cage, this show. And his vocal arrangements are famously, well, in the case of Mame, like super high, really showy, and really exciting, and just full on. And so that's what people want from these Jerry Herman shows, is just... You know, Alexandra mentioned when Mabel comes in the room, which is the number in the second act, Mabel returns to the studio, it's sort of the Hello, Dolly! number of Mack and Mabel.

And it's this about five and a half minute piece. And the arrangement, the way it builds from each verse, it's like five choruses. And the way it builds, and the way it modulates, and the way the vocal arrangement builds, it's just classic Jerry Herman number. And I actually don't know. I mean, I'm assuming that Don Pippin was a big part of structuring that song and arranging it. But it delivers a real satisfaction for those of us who just love classic musical theater.

[1:03:09] Rob Russo: And this show has one of the best overtures ever, that we all love from the cast recording. But I understand that it was not originally done as the overture. So it seems that...

[1:03:31] Rob Berman: I don't know the exact history, but I'm sure at some point they tried it as the overture, and then it ended up in New York as being the entrecte. So what you hear on the cast recording as the overture was played before the second act. I don't want to give away too much, but that's what we're going to do as well. And so if people come, and don't hear the overture at the beginning of the...

[1:04:24] Jack Viertel: You earlier said that Mack & Mabel is like the Jerry Hermanist of Jerry Herman scores. Is there any particular song or moment in the show that you think is like a paradigmatic example? When you hear it you say, ah, that's Jerry Herman. Yeah, I mean I think when Mabel comes in the room, as we talked about, but also, you know, you think about, people think of, like Irving Berlin, people think that his music was simple and like sort of basic in some way, even though it's also wonderfully tuneful. First of all, tuneful is extremely, it's not easy to do, A. B, you know, he had a richer style and capability than maybe he gets credit for. If you look at a song like, If You Walked Into My Life from Mame, and a song like Time Heals Everything, it has a chromaticism, it has more sophisticated harmonies in there, and so, but I don't know.

I think I Won't Send Roses is sort of the anthem of the show, it's the song of the show, you know. I don't think there's anything wrong with tuneful. I think tuneful is what you want to aspire to. No, of course, yeah, no, and that's, you know, that's what makes working on this score, it's easy to teach, I will tell you that. Everybody gets it, yeah, yeah. But, you know, there's a lot of nuance and things that we're gonna continue to kind of look at, but it's, so far, on day two, it's been a joy, it's been a joy working with this cast.

[1:06:16] Rob Russo: At what point does everyone come together? What point in the process does the cast sing with the orchestra?

[1:06:20] Jack Viertel: With the orchestra? Oh, we have a Sitzprobe day, which is at the end of the, well, let's see, today's day two, it's the end of next week, so about after about ten days, we come together, and there's Doug and us laughing. I have, what we do at Encores! is, we already had a, I had an orchestra rehearsal two weeks ago, or last week, we usually have an orchestra rehearsal before we start with the cast, just to read everything down. Sometimes we do shows where some of the music's never been recorded, and the director or the choreographer want to hear what it sounds like before they start staging it. Sometimes we're dealing with shows that have compromised orchestra parts, or things that we need to hear to know if we have to fix things in the orchestration, and so...

[1:07:14] Rob Russo: Have you had to rebuild scores, too, from scratch?

[1:07:20] Jack Viertel: Oh, yeah, yeah, we have, it's really run the gamut of, the most extreme situation probably was three years ago when we did The New Yorkers by Cole Porter, and there was no score at all. There was no piano score, there was no orchestration, there was nothing, just a script. So we had to create that score from scratch, yeah. That was probably the most extreme, but then we've had shows where we have a piano score, but there are no orchestrations, so we have, we've had Jonathan Tunick do some of those over the years, but for the most part, I mean, our mission being, play these shows with the original orchestrations, with the full-size orchestra, you know, that's usually what we do. And then you have a show like Mack and Mabel, where everybody knows the score, so everybody's very familiar with it.

But there was work to be done on that, because in the different versions of the show, some of the orchestrations did get tinkered with, and so we've really restored it back to the Broadway instrumentation, and it's usually stuff that you wouldn't necessarily notice. It's like woodwind doublings, you know, a lot of times shows, once they go on tour, they get into licensing, they would simplify woodwind doublings, because in New York you've got guys who can play six or seven instruments, and they'll simplify it, and then we often have to undo that kind of thing. Our goal is always to try to get back to what it was in the original pit on Broadway. So I have a great team, Josh Clayton, who works with me, is instrumental in helping all that stuff happen.

[1:08:45] Rob Russo: Amazing. Well, you mentioned that the score has been tinkered with a little bit over the years. I understand there was a sort of titular song added to the melody of Look What Happened to Mabel, that's called Mack and Mabel, that comes back later in the show. What purpose does that song serve in the course of the story?

[1:09:03] Jack Viertel: Well, we are not doing that.

[1:09:04] Rob Russo: You're not doing that?

[1:09:05] Jack Viertel: We chose not to do that. So this is an example of where we looked at the different versions of things, and we sort of made our own judgment, and we also tend, I personally always tend to, where there's a question, I tend to favor, well, what did they do in the original? And this piece was not in the original. Right. And interestingly, I think they probably added it at some point, because it was the only time that they would sing together. I mean, you guys don't sing together at any point in the show. And so this was a sort of a little duet, but we found that it wasn't necessary, and everyone sort of agreed to that, and so we won't be hearing that.

[1:09:39] Rob Russo: Interesting. So now that you've mentioned it, I'm gonna nerd out here. Are you using Hit Him on the Head or My Heart Leaps Up?

[1:09:44] Jack Viertel: You are, you're really good. So, again, I, oh yes?

[1:09:52] Rob Russo: Oh yeah, what do you want to hear?

[1:09:53] Jack Viertel: I think I'd probably be more excited to see Hit Him on the Head.

[1:09:56] Rob Russo: Oh good, well then you'll be happy.

[1:09:58] Jack Viertel: Yeah. But the thing is that, because that was the original song that was written, right, and it was cut and replaced with My Heart Leaps Up.

[1:10:05] Rob Russo: Correct.

[1:10:06] Jack Viertel: But then, we're doing that version that you'll hear on the London recording with Howard McGillin, where he sings a little bit of My Heart Leaps Up at the top, at sort of a, set the table. And then we jump into Hit Him on the Head, which then turns into a huge, you know, Keystone Cop Ballet, which, you know, we just did one last year, High Button Shoes, so we're gonna do another one.

[1:10:53] Rob Russo: Well, it's interesting, I mean, didn't Goward Champion cut it originally, because he was concerned about the comparison between that and High Button Shoes?

[1:11:02] Jack Viertel: I have heard that, yeah. I have heard that, and you never know, too. It's like, between Goward Champion and Robert Princeton and all the people there at the time, who wanted what version? I don't have all that information, but I do know that when the show was, first time it was licensed after Broadway, Hit Him on the Head was back in that edition, so clearly, the authors, I'm assuming, wanted that song. There's always detective work, and always, you know, you look at things and you go, knowing how shows are made and put together, and you look at things and you can try to figure out why decisions were made at the time, and therefore, what we feel we have license to do.

[1:12:47] Rob Russo: Well, I think you've answered this, and so this might be the third time you're going to say this song, but do you have a favorite moment in the show?

[1:12:54] Jack Viertel: Favorite moment in the show? Favorite musical moment? Yeah, I will say that when, at the orchestra rehearsal, when we get to that interlude in Time Heals Everything, and that trumpet just takes the melody, and it's this huge strings, I mean, it's just soaring, and it's big, and it's very exciting. That was a very exciting moment at the rehearsal, yeah.

[1:13:02] Jamie DuMont: We've been talking about Mack and Mabel since about 10 o'clock this morning.

[1:13:07] Rob Russo: I'm sure. And Rob and I have been talking about Mack and Mabel for, well, since we met, for two solid years, but a lot over the last couple of days, and Time Heals Everything is the song that keeps coming up.

[1:13:15] Jack Viertel: Yeah. It's, I think it's, you know, there's been some conversation about, you know, saying that the score is simple, and it's not. I think Time Heals Everything is pure poetry, and I think it's a very complicated song, and I think it's a beautiful song. And it's a beautiful, it's a great song to interpret, you know, that's the thing. It's, when you look at the lyrics on the page, the script came out, and I was like, it looks like nothing. It looks like a tiny little, you know, and so you go, wow. But Alexandra has a great feeling for it already, and you know, there's just a lot there. There's a lot you can really dig into with that piece, for sure.

[1:14:00] Rob Russo: Well, we can't wait to hear it. Thank you for your time, and also thank you for everything that you and Encores! have done over the years for all of us, because it is not only a New York institution, but it is a treasure, and we are very privileged to be a part of it.

[1:14:12] Jack Viertel: I appreciate that.

[1:14:34] Jamie DuMont: Mack and Mabel opens tonight and runs through Sunday, February 23rd at New York City Center. You do not want to miss this production. But if you do, or you're listening to this episode after the fact, you can go online and find a highlights video so you can witness everything we've talked about on this episode come to life.

[1:15:03] Rob Russo: Rob here. That's our show. Thanks for listening. You can hear us anytime on iTunes. As mentioned at the top of this episode, be sure to check out Social Goods, an online store that offers a curated slate of statement-making merchandise that gives back to nonprofits tackling today's most pressing issues, from Everytown for Gun Safety to Planned Parenthood of New York, the Special Olympics, and more. Best of all, we've partnered with Social Goods to offer a special discount for listeners of The Fabulous Invalid. Go to social-goods.com and use the code FAB15 at checkout to receive 15% off your first order. That's Social Goods, where every transaction comes with real action. The Fabulous Invalid is a production of O&M Etc. and The Fabulous Invalid LLC, and a proud member of the Broadway Podcast Network.

Our theme music is by Lucky Chops. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Jamie Dumont and Aaron Kaufman. You can find us online at thefabulousinvalid.com and on social media at Fabulous Invalid, and on iTunes, Spotify, and wherever you find your podcasts. A very special thanks to New York City Center for facilitating this episode, and be sure to tune in next Wednesday.