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[0:00] Bobby Steggert: I'm Bobby Steggart, and this is The Quiet Part Out Loud.

[0:16] Bobby Steggert: Selfishness is in the eye of the beholder. And its context is inextricable from culture, of course. Someone from a more collectivist society might find the rugged individualism of Americans shocking. If you've ever been to Japan and witnessed the remarkable collective care of public spaces, where eating on the street is unheard of and no one would ever dream of making noise on public transit, you can imagine how selfish we all must seem as we toss our trash into overflowing garbage cans and play music at full volume from our phones. It's safe to say that one of the primary questions in politics is the debate over how selfish we should or shouldn't be in terms of the taxes we pay. Then again, the universally negative connotations around the idea of self-centeredness is interesting in that therapy, at its core, is the process of becoming centered in the self.

Entire schools of therapeutic thought—for example, the self-psychology model—is all about finding a healthy and positive relationship to the self. It's my belief that by choosing to care for yourself first and foremost, it's the best way to have the capacity and free-flowing energy to then turn outwards with generosity. My guest is Jay Armstrong Johnson, and he is brave enough to explore the idea of selfishness. It's decidedly a bigger risk to bring a part like this to the show because there are so many automatically negative associations, and I really appreciate Jay's willingness to go there.

[1:47] Bobby Steggert: Selfishness is something that Jay was accused of early in his life, in the context of a family that was wounded by divorce and struggle, in which selfishness was the worst of sins and the source of abandonment. It's, as he says, a ghost that has followed him since childhood, and choosing himself over the needs and expectations of those he loves is something he had to navigate and learn to value, even in the face of disappointment. It's also arguable that being an actor, which for anyone is such a risky and high-stakes gamble, requires a significant measure of selfishness in order to compete in a market of such scarcity. It requires that you put your career first or else there might not be a career to be had.

I look back to my 20s and 30s and sometimes cringe at how uncompromising I sometimes was in putting my career above anything else. And yet if I could go back, would I do it any differently? Probably not. The fortunate thing for Jay is that his choice to pursue his passion for the theatre has afforded him, in adulthood, the opportunity to support family in meaningful ways and to use his art to give back to the community. If you're listening to this episode in the week that it drops, I highly encourage you to buy tickets for Jay's Halloween show. It's the 10th anniversary of I Put a Spell on You. Very much in the spirit of selflessness, proceeds go to the Ally 40 Centre, a wonderful organization that supports queer youth. You can buy tickets at spellonyc.com. The show is 8 p.m. on Monday, October 20th at Webster Hall in New York. And maybe I'll see you there.

[3:26] Bobby Steggert: As I told you, I love that you chose something that's just inherently a little crunchier because of the associations around the word. We've known each other for years, but we've never really spent any time together. But I've always had the feeling that you are really comfortable being really transparent about who you are and your experience. And is that how you perceive yourself? And has that always been the case?

[3:44] Jay Armstrong Johnson: Yes and no. Early on in my career, I was surrounded by particularly a manager that really wanted to reel in my authenticity in service of getting roles, wanted me to straighten my hair because curly-headed boys don't get lead roles, and wanted me to not be seen in public with my very public boyfriend that was doing a Broadway show down the street from me. And so that experience as a young 20-something new to Broadway was really kind of hard to grapple with. And I pushed back significantly against that. I've always had this kind of war of worlds in my mind being like, should I just be a puppet in service of getting the roles and doing the thing and following that Hollywood trajectory? Or should I be 100% my authentic self and queer and loud and proud and curly-headed?

And I leaned in toward authenticity, whether it's helped me in my career, whether it's not, who can say? But it's been important to me. And the kind of response I've gotten, at least in my DMs from queer kids all over the world, has been lovely. So I'm trying to anchor myself in that representation that I didn't necessarily have as a kid. Yeah, I try to be as transparent. I try not to censor. And we have to also acknowledge the world really has changed for us, at least in New York and in the industry in the last 20 years. I was told you must pretend you're straight. And now that's just not a requirement anymore.

[5:10] Bobby Steggert: Right. Which we love. But, you know, we're also in a different political climate where LGBTQIA, where we've just been demonized a little bit more in service of political gain. So we thought it was over when Obama was elected. And now we're like back in the fight again, which feels crazy to me.

[5:27] Jay Armstrong Johnson: It was like a mirage, almost.

[5:29] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, wild.

[5:30] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. All right. That's a really interesting answer. And I will tell you, the first time I saw you, it was a concert we were both singing at and you had the curliest hair. And I thought that hair is so beautiful. I hate my straight hair. So that tells you something about the way we see ourselves.

[5:44] Jay Armstrong Johnson: The grass is always greener, right?

[5:46] Bobby Steggert: Okay. So we're talking about selfishness and it's such an interesting idea because there are so many ways to interpret it. But how was the idea of selfishness first framed for you as a kid?

[5:59] Jay Armstrong Johnson: It was probably framed around when my parents got divorced. Mom and dad got divorced when I was about 12, 13 years old. I remember when it happened, my dad sitting me and my sister down and being like, I'm unhappy and life's too short to be unhappy. And so I need to go and live my life and be happy. And I remember that being a really compelling argument as a 12, 13-year-old boy that was in the midst of his household becoming a broken one. And I was also happy to have that ultra-masculine thing out of my house at a young age when I was feeling this queerness as I was reaching puberty. One, I was happy that toxic masculinity was not going to be there and I wasn't going to be chastised for any of my more feminine qualities by my father.

But then I found theatre that same year, really. And so I was able to really immerse myself in a community of artists that really uplifted me for my queerness. It wasn't necessarily queerness back then, but it wasn't football, it wasn't sports, it wasn't your hyper-masculine Texas thing. And as I realized I was falling so deeply in love with theatre and with arts and with dance, that was my whole life. My whole identity changed and I'd wanted nothing to do anything else but that. And so my mom felt me pulling away from my family in service of this newfound, beautiful, lovely, supportive life.

[7:30] Jay Armstrong Johnson: And she already had the belief that she had been abandoned. So was it that Jay was abandoning the family too? That's what it felt like. And the want or need to show up to rehearsals early or to stay at rehearsals late or to go to a friend's house that I'd met at theatre camp was labelled as selfish at that time, which was hard to grapple with.

[7:50] Bobby Steggert: I imagine. Did you understand what your dad meant when he said I was unhappy? Did you have enough context at that age to recognize the unhappiness? How did it manifest in the home?

[8:01] Jay Armstrong Johnson: I think so. Like my dad lost his job and he lost the company car and we lost the two-storey house and we had to move in with grandma. And so my sister and I were sharing a bedroom and then my mom and my dad were in the smaller guest bedroom with my grandmother. And so we were like all of a sudden this really cramped household overnight. And I could sense how unhappy both my mother and my father were. And I was doing my best to be outside of the house as often as possible and immersed in that theatre world. So when he said he was unhappy, I was fully aware that he was unhappy just because I could feel that energy in the home.

[8:38] Bobby Steggert: Did he find something else as the excuse to leave or was it just the unhappiness and he didn't know what he was turning to?

[8:44] Jay Armstrong Johnson: You know, it was definitely infidelity. You know, he found another woman and she's now my stepmom and has been since I was 17 years old and I love her dearly. So I think that colored a lot of my mom's feelings about it because it was infidelity.

[8:59] Bobby Steggert: Of course, from her point of view, that makes so much sense. And are you saying that you were relieved to be free of the masculine energy and that prevented you from feeling abandoned yourself at all? It was the relief was more powerful?

[9:13] Jay Armstrong Johnson: I think so. I've been thinking about this a lot recently and so many of my memories of that time are really warped and almost I don't remember a lot from that area of my life. At least the what I was telling myself in my head, this is better. While I was absolutely being abandoned by my father, I wasn't necessarily feeling that even though the repercussions of that are definitely still there, if that makes sense.

[9:39] Bobby Steggert: Of course, yeah.

[9:40] Jay Armstrong Johnson: Yeah, because I even remember when they were going through the divorce conversations coming up about do you need to go talk to someone? Should we get you a therapist to work through any feelings you may have about this divorce? And I was like, no, I have theater. I'm good. I'm happy. I just got cast as Peter Pan. I'm the lead. I have things to do.

[9:57] Bobby Steggert: Did you actually get to fly?

[9:58] Jay Armstrong Johnson: Oh, yeah. The Foy brothers came in. Her local crew flew me into a wall on opening night. It was amazing.

[10:05] Bobby Steggert: How did religion come into play? Because I know that Christianity ties into all of it, too.

[10:10] Jay Armstrong Johnson: I was, at least before I found theater, church was my literal sanctuary away from the Texas public school system that bullied me pretty harshly because in the third grade they could smell queerness on me, which I don't know how I didn't. I wasn't even aware of sexuality at that point. I wasn't even thinking about boys in that manner. But my name rhymes with gay and the kids had a lot of fun with that.

[10:34] Bobby Steggert: Did you have a feminine sensibility in terms of sensitivity, empathy?

[10:39] Jay Armstrong Johnson: Maybe I know I was artistic, right? I know that choir was my favorite. I know that like the Thanksgiving pageant, being the center stage turkey was very important to me. I know that putting on white tights and reciting Shakespeare in the fifth grade was way more exciting to me than kickball. Right. So, of course, that energy is inherently feminine. I did a cheerleading routine for my fourth grade challenge. So I think that because I was an outlier in Texas specifically, yeah, they smelled it on me, if not even smelled it on me, they saw it on me.

[11:09] Bobby Steggert: What kind of Texas are we talking? Because it's such a huge state. Paint me a picture of your Texas.

[11:13] Jay Armstrong Johnson: My Texas is Fort Worth, Texas, which is technically one of the biggest cities in America, like number 10 or number eight or something like that, which when I found that out as an adult, I was like, oh, my God, because it felt like I had such a rural upbringing because I grew up between the downtown area and like the cow field pastures. So my Texas is like purple AF and the arts and the DFW area are huge. So many big artists come out of Dallas and Fort Worth. There's always been these opposing forces and there still are those opposing forces in Texas that like church and theater were safe.

[11:50] Jay Armstrong Johnson: For me, public school system was absolutely not. And so church was safe in terms of community and or was it also safe because of your early faith in God? It's both. I started going to church at a really young age. My preschool was at a Baptist church. Thank God we didn't stick with Baptists because that's a wild, very conservative faction of the Christian faith. We ended up going to a more liberal church that allowed females to be ministers. Could you believe it? There were even like some openly gay church camp leaders that would lead us. And church camp was my favorite place on the planet. I got to spend a week away from home and worship and praise and play volleyball and have all of that fun.

My faith was huge for me. It also was so tied in to singing. I was a boy soprano in the church choir starting in the sixth grade. I got all the solos and all of the choir arrangements and I was uplifted by my church community for having this gift from God that could really reach people in a spiritual way. And in those communities, that's literal, right? God literally put that into your body. Yeah. And I could feel that spirit, right? Before I found theater, singing in church, what that gave me, like that spirit, that aura that people of faith have. I felt that intensely and deeply, like really felt it infused through my veins even before it all fell away when I came of age. And we'll get to that, I suppose.

But was there the belief then that if you weren't using your gift for God, then you were being selfish with your gift? I guess a little bit. Yeah. Because then I became the performing monkey at any event, even just like family get-togethers, like, Jay, sing! And weirdly, inherently shy. I think all Virgos are, apparently. I felt pressure from my family to use my gifts outside and on the spot, on the fly. And when I was uncomfortable with that, I was almost shamed for not using that gift. If God gave you this, why aren't you sharing it?

[14:02] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. Was there anything about the secular nature of musical theater that shifted the perspective about your use of talent? It's okay in church, but he's off doing theater now.

[14:12] Jay Armstrong Johnson: I don't think so. Because the only reason why I found theater is because my friends in the church choir were like, you've got a gift. We have this theater company down the street. You should come audition. And so it was the church inviting me into that theater space. So if I hadn't had church and those community members encouraging me to use my gifts outside of the sanctuary, I wouldn't be where I am today. So it felt safe. It was also a theater company that was like a children's theater company that's very G-rated. And so we're not out here doing Rent. We're out here doing Peter Pan. And you definitely did Joseph. You definitely did. Oh, almost. Oh, damn. Cast in Joseph when I was 15. But then the hip-hop company down the street was much more exciting to me as a teenager. So I ended up declining my role in Joseph to go be a part of this hip-hop company.

[15:01] Bobby Steggert: Oh, that's a flex. So I guess I'm getting the impression that it really is this is a mom thing. And so if she felt like you were being selfish, how did she tell you? How did she communicate that to you?

[15:12] Jay Armstrong Johnson: The literal word selfish was used, and it was used to compare me to my father who had abandoned the family. Right. And while I understood my dad's need to be happy in our household with him gone, he was the villain. And so the goal was to not be like that villain. Yet I was still being compared to said villain. So when you discover your true passion for performing at that point, did you ever dig in and go, Yeah, I'm being selfish because this is what I love? Did you ever own that and flip it on her in any way? Maybe not explicitly. Right. I didn't ever say this is what I love. I'm not going away from it. Deal with it, lady. And more implicitly, right, particularly once I had a car and could take myself anywhere.

And I was even making a paycheck. And my first paycheck I got was when I was 13 years old, doing Peter Pan professionally in my hometown with Kathy Rigby. So at a young age in a family that was financially struggling, I all of a sudden had some sort of income as a teenager, which kind of gave me agency to go out and do the thing that I loved because it was providing me my money.

[16:28] Bobby Steggert: Were you supporting family with money at all?

[16:33] Jay Armstrong Johnson: I guess a little bit to a certain extent. I would absolutely give money to my mom for some bills along the way and have ever since then, even if I was doing it with a little chip on my shoulder. So we went to the same college years apart. Now that I know that money was an issue, how did NYU happen?

[16:49] Jay Armstrong Johnson: It's a great question, Bobby. When theater became the thing that I knew I wanted to do at age 13, I knew to get out of Texas and to get to New York where Broadway was was the most important thing. So without even actually doing the research about what the financial burden would be, I told myself that I would only be applying to NYU. And if I didn't get in, then I would just be moving to New York City and try to make it in the industry. So that's what I did. I applied. I got in. I got probably a half scholarship because of my academics. But we both know that most of the money you spend there is on room and board. So the kind of loans that I had to take out personally were exorbitant, were wild.

I just finished paying off those loans last year. Six Broadway shows later and an international television show, and I'm technically doing pretty damn well for myself in the industry. I still don't own property. I still don't have investments. So I'm a bit behind all of the other late 30-year-olds out in the world right now, just because I chose to go to such an expensive university.

[18:01] Bobby Steggert: Wow. Do you link that to this idea of selfishness at all? Did your mom? Was this idea that you went off to this elite college in this elite city to pursue this really sort of high risk vocation? Did that ever get framed as such?

[18:05] Jay Armstrong Johnson: Maybe not so much. My mom was totally sad to lose me to New York City. It's been almost 20 years that I've been away from Texas now. That part came from my sister who saw me abandoning the family in Texas to go run off and pursue my dreams in New York. So me leaving her behind to pick up all of the pieces of my broken family was hard for her to grapple with. She no longer had her sibling helping her with all of that. And so that idea of selfishness came from her, really.

[18:49] Bobby Steggert: Is she still more involved with family? And is she still there?

[18:55] Jay Armstrong Johnson: She has to be. She's a mommy now, too. So my mom's a grandmother and my father's a grandfather. And my whole entire family unit is still back in Texas and Fort Worth specifically. Dad's in Dallas, but really close by. Yeah. And that was the beginning of it, though. I think because I've seen the success that I've seen in my career, my family's wildly supportive and understands why I went away and that it was for good reason. And we're seeing some goodness come out of it because I wouldn't have been able to really help my family in the way that I have been able to financially if I hadn't made this really wild decision to move away at age 17.

[19:34] Bobby Steggert: That's certainly very selfless to want to be able to support your family in that way. And was that always part of your goal? I want to succeed so I can send money back?

[19:39] Jay Armstrong Johnson: Yeah, I think so. And I don't do it often, right? It really is emergency situations if they come at me or if I'm home visiting family and I am coming off of a Broadway show and have a bit of money in the bank, I'll pick up the dinner check for our 17 family members that all got together to go to Chili's. Those kinds of moments are easy for me when I have the money. It almost feels like a, sorry for abandoning you, here's this gift.

[20:09] Bobby Steggert: It feels like you're making up for something.

[20:15] Jay Armstrong Johnson: Yeah. Compensation, literally. I'm also really interested in this idea that there's this thread through homophobic thoughts that to be queer is to be selfish. There's this idea that especially gay men, they get together, they don't have kids, they fly around the world, they vacation, they live these lives of luxury. It's complete nonsense because we're so diverse as a community. But I'm wondering if your queerness was ever framed as a selfishness against the heteronormative expectations of the world.

[20:35] Jay Armstrong Johnson: I think not from my family, at least. I think my mom is super sad that I don't have any intention of ever having children. It's not really on my dance card. That is not my ministry, at least at this time in this economy. I do feel that at least from society as a whole. And I think that's why we're seeing such a pushback from our more Christian nationalist side of the country that is really truly trying to demonize the LGBTQIA community in that way and label us as opposite of family values. When really, in my heart, queer people that decide to have children or take in children, that is God's work.

[21:23] Bobby Steggert: We'll be right back. I'm also interested in the shadow side of this conversation. How has selfishness that has not served you been part of your life?

[21:34] Jay Armstrong Johnson: Wow, that's a deep question. And I'm going to really ruminate on that. How has selfishness that has not served me been a part of my life? Because I chose to be in an industry that is pretty cutthroat and a difficult one to really manage and find stability in, there have absolutely been times that my choices as an entertainer have definitely been selfish ones that in my head are maybe leading me to greener pastures if I go that way. But it means negating a partner or even responsibility. And I know that's a vague answer. And I'm trying to think of specific instances where that is the case.

[22:16] Bobby Steggert: I really appreciate that. Let me join you there so that this is not just you on this spot. Because I remember so many times when my success in a show or at a certain time in my life was so central and so important, that if a gun was held to my head, I would have chosen that show over anyone. And it might not have been the most balanced choice. But at those times, I needed it more than the relationship or the connection or anything like that.

[22:43] Jay Armstrong Johnson: Yeah, I've particularly seen it in my partnerships, right? Mostly because I think I've been in partnerships with a lot of other artists that was hard to grapple with. And so the idea of selfishness that has absolutely come up. Fairly or unfairly, the story was, you don't know what I'm going through, or you're choosing your cast or your show your experience over me. The hardest example of this was like the financial burden of it. So Jay's in a big Broadway show being paid as a principal character, boyfriend is unemployed. And so why isn't Jay paying more money in rent? He's making more money. And so this idea that because I have the money coming in, I should be supporting my boyfriend. So I was being made to feel bad about asking for equal financial burden in our lives. Just because I was.

[23:42] Jay Armstrong Johnson: Have you ironed that out with age? Has it just gotten easier to have different expectations as you've matured?

[23:49] Jay Armstrong Johnson: I think so for sure. My partner and I right now, we understand the nature of what it is to be in this industry. When we first started dating, I was unemployed and he was doing Aladdin on Broadway and making a production salary. And so all groceries were being paid for by him. And then he went and did on Broadway and it's closed and now he's sitting in unemployment and I'm on tour with Moulin Rouge. And so now I am the breadwinner and I'm providing that support. And so I think as a young person with like tens and tens of thousands of dollars in debt, that was a little harder for me to navigate with earlier partners as a new adult on this planet. And now in retrospect, as someone that's pushing toward 40, I'm able to have a bit more flexibility in it.

The partnership I have now just feels so supportive and so flexible and so communicative that it feels like we've set ourselves up for success knowing that this journey that we're on as artists is just going to be something that is going to continue to throw curveballs. I think I just found a partner that is truly supportive. And while he is in my same industry, successes are his successes and his successes are my successes.

[25:03] Jay Armstrong Johnson: I'm also curious about the opposite. Were you ever with someone at a moment where they were succeeding and you just weren't ready to fully support them? Our friend Adam Chandler Bratt and I began dating when we were 21, 22. He was doing Next to Normal on Broadway at the same time I was doing Hair. And I remember being the boy that was like, I have so much debt. I can only pay this amount in rent. And he was taking the rest on himself until he had a moment where he was like, this is not equitable. I'm going to need to split 50/50. And I was like, yes, you're right. Thank you. So there was that moment that my financial burden became a selfishness that made someone else take the weight. So, yeah, I was there and we fixed it. We didn't stay together clearly, but I remember that being a really uncomfortable moment for us as my selfishness in service of like my finances.

[26:07] Bobby Steggert: I really appreciate that perspective. And I'm also struck by how a lot of this conversation has been focused around money as this sort of symbol of the relationship. And if you grew up with financial scarcity, it makes so much sense to me. So what comes up for you in terms of that being what we're talking about?

[26:23] Jay Armstrong Johnson: The nepotism baby of it all is a hard thing for me to grapple with. I've always had a handicap on me. And I think that me being a scholarship kid in Texas to be able to even study the art form that I fell so deeply in love with, like that I didn't have the means and I still don't necessarily have the means today. So, yeah, it's always been a struggle. And luckily I've had support and that's why I started producing for charities so that other kids could have that kind of support that I had to like maybe make their futures a little brighter, I guess.

[27:00] Bobby Steggert: You know, I would argue, though, that there's something in your energy that you do infuse into all of your acting that is—there's a better word for it, but there's like a scrappiness to your work ethic and to your desire to share. And I'm not sure if a nepotism baby has that.

[27:15] Jay Armstrong Johnson: You know what? You're right. And it's not necessarily that I would rather it be the other way around, because I do think that who I am as a human, an artist, the drive that I have to succeed, that itch that tells me go is absolutely because of how I was brought up and my circumstances. And so thank you for saying that. Yeah, it would have been nice to be a rich kid, but I don't know if my work would have been as scrappy or maybe compelling or maybe if I would have had the same amount of energy to try to succeed because I was against it all.

[27:50] Bobby Steggert: That's right. And there's always, if you're born into a lot of wealth, there's the chance that meaning is sapped of your pursuits. And that could also be a real drawback to your experience.

[28:01] Jay Armstrong Johnson: That's real. That's real, real. That's also not universal. It's just, it's a risk, I think. Is your performance career still everything to you or with age, has it shifted? I know that you're producing, but tell me about that evolution from, I must be a Broadway star to where we are today.

[28:17] Jay Armstrong Johnson: Yeah. I mean, I think we're still in alignment. There's nothing I love more than being on stage. There's nothing I love more than escaping into a character. There's nothing I love more than making people laugh. That's always been who I've been. Even as a kid, I was the class clown and I was the entertainment during the halftime shows and football games on Monday night.

[28:38] Bobby Steggert: Doing what?

[28:39] Jay Armstrong Johnson: Like doing cheerleading routines when like I would make my cousins go into the back room and we would rehearse the cheerleading routine. And then during halftime, we would perform it in the living room.

[28:48] Bobby Steggert: So you weren't throwing basket tosses. You were like doing the pom-poms.

[28:53] Jay Armstrong Johnson: Yeah, we didn't have the pom-poms. We were at least doing the routines for sure. I still not necessarily accomplished all that I want to accomplish on Broadway. I've never been given the opportunity to truly lead a show. I would love that. I think Moulin Rouge has been my kind of, can you do it live? Like the craziest, hardest role I've ever had in my life has been lovely and also terrifying at times. So I would love if Broadway could trust me to truly lead a show. I have so many dreams still. The producing thing has opened up a world of possibilities for me. I didn't realize that it would do that, but it has. And it's given me a totally different perspective about what happens behind the scenes and behind the table.

[29:37] Jay Armstrong Johnson: So it's really given my artist brain a new way to think about what it means to be the artist in front of the table, creating the art from an acting perspective, because I know what happens behind the table. I've always wondered, what does it change about the stakes if you are pursuing an acting job? Does it help you understand there's so much out of your control?

[29:58] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. The holistic nature of what it means to create a piece of art, whether it's in front of a camera or whether it's on a stage, the knowledge about what it actually takes to make an artistic endeavor come to fruition. I now get it, right? Where in my early years of my career, I was just focused on saying my lines perfectly and hitting my notes perfectly. And of course I have a perfectionistic mindset and always have. That's Virgo's greatest downfall and best part. I'm able to let the bullshit fall away because I know that there is so much out of my control.

[30:34] Jay Armstrong Johnson: I have a lot of artists that are super sad that they weren't cast in my Halloween show this year. It's so hard to go to those artists and be like, so sorry, we're trying our best here. But maybe next year to be able to be on that other side, it's just been really helpful.

[30:51] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. I'm thinking about how the powerlessness of being an actor makes us at times, especially when we're younger, inadvertently selfish because we go in and not have that audition and we can feel so slighted or offended and we can be personalized so much that you're saying in the longer term and in the bigger picture just isn't as personal as we imagine it is.

[31:12] Jay Armstrong Johnson: It really isn't because it can't be. And the biggest question I get from young artists is like, how do you deal with rejection? And I have to tell them, you have to frame it differently. It's not rejection. It was a moment for you to show the world what you have that could potentially lead you to another moment down the road. Most of my favorite roles that I've ever gotten happened because I didn't get a role previously. It's like you have to trust the process and know that it's not personal and that our job as actors is to audition. That is the job. And when things come your way, that's amazing. And when things don't, do the work and it will lead to something down the road if you just stay the course.

[31:52] Jay Armstrong Johnson: I'm not really performing much anymore. I am a little bit. And one form of selfishness that I have brought into the way I function, which I think is really healthy, is if I now get a call asking for a tape or an audition and I'm not in the place to do it, I just say, no, I'm living my life. I'll get back to you. This is what I can do. And this is what I can't. And I know I speak from a place of privilege about that, but it really helped me in all of my anxieties around that stuff.

[32:20] Bobby Steggert: Have you been able to do something similar with just boundaries around your time?

[32:24] Jay Armstrong Johnson: I really have. And it's empowering even to look at something and say, I know that's not for me, even if it might make a manager or an agent upset that you didn't pursue that opportunity, but it really is about agency and about what you think you're right for. And I think that level of self-introspection and protection of time is super, super important.

[32:47] Bobby Steggert: I also can't wait to see your work on The Gilded Age.

[32:49] Jay Armstrong Johnson: I auditioned for that role.

[32:51] Bobby Steggert: Oh, you did. You would have done great.

[32:53] Jay Armstrong Johnson: I literally had my friend make me like facial hair. I like literally glued facial hair on my face because I can't actually grow a beard because the breakdown was like wild facial hair. You know what's amazing though? I had been hiking in the Grand Canyon and I hadn't shaved and I saw it as a sign and I was like, all right, I haven't auditioned in years, but I have a beard, so I might as well try.

[33:14] Bobby Steggert: You grow beautiful facial hair, Bobby.

[33:17] Jay Armstrong Johnson: Thank you. Thank you very much. Full, so clean.

[33:21] Bobby Steggert: I look like a muskrat when mine grows out. We almost have to go. So the last thing I'd like to ask is if you could redefine the concept of selfishness into an evolved, complex, adult definition of the word, what does it mean to you now?

[33:36] Jay Armstrong Johnson: I think it's the idea of boundaries. Right. Selfishness has such a negative connotation and it really depends on the person that is perceiving that selfishness. But if that perception is actually rooted in a boundary that keeps my mind and my body in a place that allows me to feel authentic, it's actually not selfishness. It's self-preservation. So I'm trying at least in my adult years to be more perceptive of that. And because this idea of selfishness has been this kind of ghost that's haunted me at a young age, I'm hyper aware of it through years and years of therapy and understanding how my mind and heart and body need to go through the world, feeling okay with myself.

[34:23] Bobby Steggert: It really is about the communication style around what someone is perceiving as.

[34:28] Jay Armstrong Johnson: That's right. And ultimately what I believe is that only through authenticity can people experience your real generosity.

[34:35] Bobby Steggert: Wow.

[34:36] Jay Armstrong Johnson: For sure. Absolutely. I think that the ghost that haunts me is also the push that I have to do work that feels selfless. The Halloween show I produce every year is my baby. It's my brainchild and I lose money on it every single year to try to help little queer children that didn't have the same privileges that I had. And so to be able to form a community that is on board with that idea and using art and using money to give back to that little boy that needed that support, that means the world.