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[0:00] Robert Bannon: Are you ready? It's The Roundtable with me, Robert Bannon.

[0:10] Robert Bannon: Well, welcome to The Roundtable, everybody. My name is Robert Bannon, and you're listening to us on Broadway World, the Broadway Podcast Network, iHeart, Spotify, wherever artists are talking about art. And we have an incredible artist, writer, superstar here with you. He has a show coming to New York City that you need to know all about. And the show is called The Panic Defense. Gay panic and trans, it's funny because, side note, my husband told me this morning he was fighting with trolls on social media because people were having a discussion about trans athletes and using Title IX and all this nonsense that they hide behind that doesn't really apply. And Sam is talking to you about the panic, the panic that's coming from the country, from the Oval Office down to your neighbor, and writing four incredible pieces that you need to see and hear and support our trans brothers, sisters, and people out here in the world coming from November 6th to the 22nd. Sam, welcome to The Roundtable.

[1:01] Sam Affoumado: Well, thank you very much, and thanks for that nice introduction. I'm sorry it was so long, but it's so passionate. I'm so passionate.

[1:10] Robert Bannon: Well, I feel the same way, obviously. That's why I wrote this piece. And you mentioned the panic defense. And one of the things I observed was that most people have never heard of that. They don't know what it is and what does it do. And so I did some research on it myself because I heard the term but really wasn't sure what it was. And I found out some really interesting stuff. It's been around a long time. It is not a law. It is a legal strategy that defense lawyers use to blame the victim. It's hard for me to explain this because it's very emotional. They blame the victim for their own demise. So in this particular case, it's the LGBTQ plus community, right? And I did some research about, you know, who's involved, what happens, where does it happen?

And that's when I came across the panic defense. And because I always wondered why some horrific crimes are committed and people get either a slap on the wrist, or they get acquitted altogether for these horrific crimes. And then I realized it's not about the crime. It's about who the victim is. And that is what kind of colors what happens in the courtroom. So I decided to research the statistics, but to talk about individual cases. But I didn't want it to be a verbatim play where, you know, like the Laramie Project, which is an excellent piece. But it's a verbatim play because the company went out to Wyoming, and they interviewed hundreds of people and they put it together to form a play. But the words were verbatim from what the witnesses talked about.

This play is not that. It's about that on some level, but it's for two purposes. The first one is to talk about the panic defense. What is it? Who does it apply to? And why do we even have it? It is still legal in 30 states. And even in the states like New York, where I'm from, it was banned. It's still used. You know, you can ban something, but defense lawyers know how to get around things. And as we all know, who gets the press? The perpetrators. We have fan clubs for Luigi, who murdered this corporate guy. Okay. But we never hear about the victims other than maybe they weren't good people, or they're people we don't know and we don't care. And even now with the Cornell case, and that has nothing to do with LGBTQ individuals, but it's still about victims versus perpetrators.

And the press seems to gravitate toward the perpetrators, not the victims. Okay. So panic defense. So I wrote this play. I did research. I saw many cases, and I felt I wanted to represent the gay community in some way. I certainly couldn't include everything because it's a 90-minute piece, no intermission. And how am I going to focus it? And so basically, I chose four cases that I had heard about and read about. But I didn't want to just repeat the case. Because then, you know, where does the creativity come in? Where does the theatricality come in? It could have been a webinar or a seminar. And that's not what I wanted to do. So the play basically focuses on four victims whose perpetrators were either given a lighter sentence or acquitted altogether for some really horrific crimes committed against these four people.

How did I choose the four people? I really didn't know. I was going through all these cases. And I said, well, you know, the stereotype is, well, it's not in blue states, because we know better. We're more enlightened. It's got to be in the south or in red states or whatever. And I thought, well, that's not true. So I found four cases, and I chose them for compelling reasons and for different reasons. I chose one case that happened in California. And I chose it because it happened to a 15-year-old boy in the classroom in front of his teachers and his student friends. That was one very extraordinary case. And I felt it was compelling theatrically, but also, it showed you that it could happen anywhere to anyone.

So that was one case that's talked about. And by the way, it's not talked about as a case. We meet the victims, and they have a lot to say. And that was the point of writing it this way. I wanted to shed light on the victims. Who are they? Where do they come from? What are their hopes and dreams? Why are they like all of us? And why feel about them what we feel about everyone? And I tend to write plays anyway about marginalized people. Because I was also an educator for three decades. And I know you are, or were.

[7:21] Robert Bannon: You went, okay, I am. Yeah, you are. Okay. So I taught in New York City public schools for three decades. I taught middle school and high school. I taught students with special needs. So I've had that whole career as well. And so that also influenced what I cared about, and what I wanted to write about. And so that's how I did this panic defense play. I really want to tell you about the other victims, if you don't mind.

[7:52] Sam Affoumado: Please, I would love to.

[7:53] Sam Affoumado: Okay. So the kid is one. Then there's a truck driver from Illinois, who's just going about his business. And I won't tell you about the case per se. But he's just an ordinary guy. He's a recovering alcoholic. He has a son who's been not taken away from him. Basically, he has joint custody, but his wife tends to keep the son away from him. And so he is on a journey to regain custody and to fight off his alcohol addiction. So he's a complex person, but a very sweet man who didn't deserve what he got. And the third one is a chef in a Dominican restaurant in New Jersey. And that's a whole other kind of case because his murderer was his partner. So we talked about, you know, internal abuse, relationship abuse, which happens as well.

That was another reason I chose that because that's different than a stranger coming and killing somebody on the street. So that happened from within. And then the final one is a transgender woman of color who is sitting on a park bench getting ready to go to her first class in beauty culture. She's trying to better herself. And this happens in New York. And it's based on a case, real case. The circumstances are changed because it is fictionalized. And she's beaten to death. She died two days later from her wounds, from the beating, from a total stranger who didn't want to be fooled because the circumstances were he came on to her and then realized, or at least he felt she was not a real woman.

And he got so angry that he beat her to death. Okay, so those are the four. Now, it sounds like it's really a gruesome play, but you really get to know these people and they are funny and they have hopes, they have dreams. And I wanted the audience to say, you know, I know these people. I know someone who does this. I know a recovering alcoholic. I know a truck driver. I know a student, you know, they have people. And so the two takeaways for me as a writer is, you know, you have to have hope. You have to have hope. You have to have hope. You have to have hope. You have to have hope.

[10:49] Sam Affoumado: One for the audience to see themselves in these victims. As different a group as they may be from what people think they are, they have universal hopes and dreams just like everybody else. They want to be seen and appreciated just like everybody else. So that was one aspect. And then the other aspect, of course, is the court issue. Of course, these people were killed this way and that way, and some of them got very light sentences for doing that, and some of them were acquitted altogether, walked out free. So there's a lot to be learned from a play like this, but I think it's theatrical, and I felt it's not a film. It's something that has to be seen live, and people have to feel it. And the final thing I'll say is that we're going to do two talkbacks after two performances, one with legal people to talk about the panic defense more than anything, and the other one, you know, it coincides on November 20th with Transgender Day of Remembrance.

So I'm going to get people from the community to come and talk about the impact that the transgender gay panic defenses has on their community. And that's it in a nutshell. I am long-winded, I'm sorry.

[12:21] Robert Bannon: No, I love it. That makes life much easier for me. So I appreciate you. The show, everybody, November 6th to the 22nd at 30th Street Theater. That's right there on West 30th Street. Opening night is November 6th, and you can get your tickets. They're only $25. $25 is a drop in the bucket in New York City. I mean, a cup of coffee is at least $12, and then if you have a Danish, you're over $25. So go get that, and then make sure you get tickets for the 13th for the talkback, and the 20th, a very deep evening, and a great way to honor transgender and gender diverse people who have lost their lives.

[13:00] Robert Bannon: You know, it's sad because, Sam, when I was growing up, before I was out, before I was married, I have an interracial gay couple. I'm in Detroit or I'm in New York. So I'm back and forth between these two cities that are more progressive. And a lot of times I think when we live in certain areas, we think we're safe or we've come a long way. That's what I like. And I'm from Jersey. That's what I like about using California, New York, and New Jersey is because transphobia and homophobia are everywhere.

[13:26] Sam Affoumado: You've got it.

[13:27] Robert Bannon: And we've come far, but we are nowhere as far as sometimes I think in our bubble we are. And we don't realize how little we've come until you're faced with that homophobia. And if you're not a part of the LGBTQIA plus community, you know somebody or love somebody that is.

[13:44] Sam Affoumado: Of course.

[13:45] Robert Bannon: So it's so important. This is not a show just for gays and trans people. This is a show for human beings.

[13:50] Sam Affoumado: Absolutely not.

[13:52] Robert Bannon: Why do you think? Who does it serve to be transphobic and homophobic? Why? We're all humans. I think we mind our business. So why is there such a push?

[14:06] Sam Affoumado: You're asking me?

[14:07] Robert Bannon: Yeah. I want to know, Sam.

[14:09] Sam Affoumado: Well, I don't have the real answer. I only know what I think. And what I think is I was a sociology major, so this may be informed from that. As a society, we always have to have an other to look down upon, to say better them than me. Who the other is changes, but the dynamics are always the same. Well, right now we have an anti-immigrant society going on and a lot of the hate comes from other immigrants because it better them than me. That's a really horrible way to look at things, but we as humans do that all the time. The LGBTQ plus community is only one other, but within that community, there's a lot of discrimination even among LGBTQ plus individuals, because if you're just a gay man and you're white, that's one thing, and you kind of feel a little privileged.

This is my take, of course. It doesn't mean everybody feels that way. When I know during the AIDS crisis, I go back a long time. Some organizations were begun by privileged white middle-class guys, and the pushback on that was the Act Now group, because they felt the other group is catering to gay white men. What about all the other people that are part of the gay community? There was discrimination with transgender people even back in the 80s and 70s, and it still exists to some extent today. Why wouldn't the rest of the society not like the LGBTQ community? Because they don't know them. They only hear what they hear. They get sound bites. The press is not necessarily kind to us, and certainly in this administration, you can forget it, but this administration is not kind to anyone, basically, unless you're white and privileged or a billionaire.

It's all pervasive, what can I say? To your point about who is this play for, it's for mainstream audiences. That's who it's for, because we know this, at least some of us do. I have to tell you, the journey of this play started in 2018, and I did a 29-hour equity reading. For those of you who don't know what that is, you get to go on stage and read the play to an invited audience. We did that. We did two performances, and they were a mainstream audience. It was not a gay, per se, audience. They were blown away, and they were blown away for two reasons. I'm not bragging on myself. They were blown away because they never heard of it. They were astounded that something like this would exist in the 21st century.

The second thing was they saw themselves in the four victims, or they saw their sons or their daughters, and they were blown away. At the end of the performance, there was no applause, and I was devastated. I went, oh, my God, they hated it. The truth was they didn't know what to do. They were shocked, and I thought, that's a great reaction, too. We don't need the applause. They were astounded. I really feel that this is a play for everyone, and they will be entertained, too, because the characters are entertaining. They don't know they're going to be dead before the end of the show. They're living their lives, and they're fun, too. I encourage everyone to come. It's not just about gay people.

He's not saying this, but for my gay, white, male, passing friends, the plight of a Black trans woman in this country is very different, and the plight of people of color in certain communities that are gay are very different, and some people have different experiences. Even as a gay community, even as the LGBT community, we need to embrace and hear each other's stories so that we can support and walk with each other against all of the homophobia and transphobia that's here in this country. No matter how easy you have it, somebody else does not have it as easy, so show your support. Also, your money and buying a ticket and showing up for this show matters greatly, not only to Sam and these incredible actors, but to keep these shows going, to have theaters to give us space, because money talks, so put your money where your mouth is and buy a ticket and support the show, because I'm sure Sam is not retiring off of the money he's making on this show.

He's not going to buy a house on the coast of, I don't know, France. He's doing it out of love and passion for something that moves him and will move you, too. I love this. The more I see, especially recently, this administration talk about trans volleyball players and weightlifters and the rhetoric that is physically dangerous to this community, the more that he speaks about it, the more we need artists are going to be what, besides voting, what we can do is create art and express feeling stories and tell people, and Sam, that's what you did, and that moves the needle and changes lives and makes the world a better place.

[20:10] Sam Affoumado: I hope so. Thank you. I want you to go get a ticket, everybody. This got an incredible cast of incredible actors. It's $25. You can go to Sam's website. The link is below, and you can get a direct ticketing link right from his website and find out more. He's doing, I don't know, everything, sound and direct. He's a superstar. Sam is just going to be there. He's maybe popping popcorn. He may be taking your ticket. He's going to make sure you have an incredible evening. The Panic Defense is November 6th to the 22nd, right there on 30th Street in the West Side, and you can get your tickets there on sale. The link is below. Thank you for hanging out with me, and thank you for writing and thank you for teaching.

[21:29] Sam Affoumado: Thank you for having me. Thanks a lot.