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[0:01] Alan Seales: Welcome back to an all-new episode of The Theatre Podcast. I'm your host, Alan Seales, and this is Intimate Personal Conversations with the industry's biggest names. And this episode lives up to that mantra there. Steve Haggard, who is currently Harry Potter in The Cursed Child on Broadway, gets, as he puts it, he gets more personal than he actually intended to, shares his story about dealing with, I guess, basically the stress and the anxiety of losing your entire industry during COVID and all of that shutdown. But then, of course, we talk about some fun stuff. The show itself, Cursed Child, is just phenomenal. If you haven't seen it yet, my God, Chris Fisher, the guy who did The Illusions, is part of the National Magicians Guild, and it does not disappoint.

It's incredible. So find me online, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, threads, you know what to do. I bet you're tired of hearing me say this. And if you're not, you must be a newbie. Welcome to the podcast. Now, everybody, please enjoy this episode with Steve Haggard. Today's guest made his Broadway debut in 2019 as part of the year two company of Harry Potter and The Cursed Child. He's appeared regionally at Steppenwolf Theatre in Tribes, at Writers Theatre in Witch, The Importance of Being Earnest, Doubt and Old Glory, and many, many others. He's appeared on television in The Chai, Chicago PD, Chicago Fire, and Prison Break, one of my absolute favorite shows, by the way. Steve Haggard, welcome to The Theatre Podcast.

[1:40] Steve Haggard: Hey, thanks. Thanks for having me.

[1:44] Alan Seales: Dude, Prison Break, I haven't said that name in a long time. That was one of the first shows I just binged when everything was coming out on DVD.

[1:52] Steve Haggard: Totally. That was a blast from the past. I did that show when I was, I don't know, 25 or something. That was a million years ago.

[2:01] Alan Seales: Really? I mean, I guess, yeah. I mean, you don't look older than 26 right now.

[2:04] Steve Haggard: Aw, thanks. You know what I mean?

[2:09] Alan Seales: Did I say The Chai? I actually...

[2:11] Steve Haggard: Ah, The Chai.

[2:12] Alan Seales: The Chai. That's what I thought. Like Chicago.

[2:15] Steve Haggard: Yeah. All those Chicago shows.

[2:16] Alan Seales: Those are like the chi, like your energy.

[2:21] Steve Haggard: So you grew up in the Chicago area, right?

[2:25] Steve Haggard: I grew up in the Midwest. I grew up in Ohio, actually, in Columbus, Ohio, which is right in the middle of Ohio, in case you didn't know. But then I moved to Chicago for college. I went to DePaul. And then I just stuck around there for a long time because it's a great city.

[2:46] Alan Seales: It's an awesome city. And it's an awesome theater city, too.

[2:50] Alan Seales: Well, what got you into performing arts and theater in the first place? Because I think, well, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Your father is a painter? An artist?

[3:00] Steve Haggard: Oh, yeah. Well, he is. Yeah, he's a visual artist. But he was also a college professor. He is a smart cookie. He painted and also taught logic and philosophy and something else.

[3:23] Alan Seales: Wait, there are so many people that I think could benefit from learning logic. How do you teach someone to be logical?

[3:31] Steve Haggard: I know. Well, it's like, I don't know. He tried to teach me, and I read some of the books that he used in his class, that his class used. And I have to be honest, I think I'm a bit thick because it's like thought equations. You're like, if this, then that, and also. And you're sort of like, the man could do Sudoku in his sleep. He loves the heart of Sudoku. He loves that stuff, logic puzzles, anything to do with sort of like, a set of givens and figuring out what the solution is. And I was a, you know, I painted and drew for a long time. And it's something that has always been a passion of mine. But he was my inspiration for that. But yeah, I grew up in Columbus, and I went to an all boys Catholic prep school, because the university that my dad worked at was like a sister school. And so we got a discount.

[4:41] Alan Seales: No shame in that game.

[4:42] Steve Haggard: Hey, no shame.

[4:43] Alan Seales: That's what my parents, I grew up in North Carolina, right? My parents, I was like, I want to go to Columbia. And they're like, no, we moved to North Carolina. So we could be residents and you can use in-state tuition at all the universities. You're not leaving the state.

[4:56] Steve Haggard: I was like, fine.

[4:57] Alan Seales: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my parents knew what they were doing. So I went to this prep school, which was like intense. It was intense. But then they also had a theater. They had a theater, like a separate theater. And then they did productions. This guy, Doug Montgomery, he's still there doing three shows a year, which is kind of incredible, and teaching English. He sort of did it all. He put up these three shows a year with us kids. And that's kind of how I got into it. I got cut. Let's be really honest. I got cut from the baseball team.

[5:34] Alan Seales: What position did you play?

[5:40] Steve Haggard: At that point, I mean, for me, in my head, I was a shortstop. But for the team, I was a designated runner, because I was about four feet high. I was about four feet tall. And I was really fast. And in high school, the weird thing is like, you play Little League, and kids are pitching like 60, maybe 70 tops. And then you get into high school, and they're like 80, 90 mile an hour fastballs. And I was too small, I couldn't hit it. I can make contact, but it wouldn't go anywhere, because I just I didn't have the strength.

[6:18] Steve Haggard: So the coach was like, Hey, man, we need to talk. And he was like, you can either like sit the bench, you can like lift weights for a couple years, and then like, maybe we'll put you in like, JV, maybe, you know, something, or you can just like walk away. And I was like, man, I was like, this is a huge thing for me, because like baseball was my life when I was a kid. So like, I was like, I don't I'm not gonna be like, I sit on the bench. Come on. And I was like, I didn't. I don't know, my, my relationship with it had changed, and it had become something that was stressful and not super fun. And it had always been fun in my life. And so this sort of was like the sign that I was like, Okay, you know, I don't think this is, I don't think this is my path.

And so I sat around for a summer. And my mom was like, you got to do something. So I joined stage crew for the high school. And then like, it was just kind of like where I was supposed to be. I met some wonderful friends. And like, I did. Man, this is embarrassing. I used to do these impressions, right? Of people like, you know, celebrities. Because like, I thought I wanted to be like Dana Carvey or something. Hilarious to say out loud. I don't know that I've ever said that out loud. But it's true. And so I used to do these.

[7:49] Alan Seales: Who was your best one?

[7:50] Steve Haggard: I'm not doing an invitation.

[7:52] Alan Seales: Come on, you gotta give me one.

[7:54] Steve Haggard: No. It's like playing the guitar. If you stop doing it, you just lose it. You lose it.

[8:01] Alan Seales: What about Daniel Radcliffe?

[8:05] Steve Haggard: You know, I should work on that.

[8:09] Steve Haggard: And then, so I would do these, whatever, invitations. And then my friends in the theater, you know, the theater kids, they sort of like surrounded me one day, and they wouldn't let me leave because they wanted me to show the director my invitations. And they kind of forced me to have a little show for him in the theater. And then he cast me in the next play. And then it just kind of like, it was super fun. That's something I really love to do. And then I thought, well, I don't know what I want to do with my life. I might as well go to theater school. So I went to the fall.

[8:49] Alan Seales: Oh, that's it. That's so cool that it just randomly kind of took you in that direction. And I talk about this a lot in that something that's perceived as a failure or a shortfall or something at the time leads to something else that you wouldn't have otherwise had, had you gotten what you thought you wanted or what you initially wanted at the first time, right? So if you had been on the baseball team and your coach hadn't had the foresight to cut you, you could have just kind of been there and been sort of miserable. And now you could be like, who knew you'd be an accountant in, you know, supplementing your income or in the minor league somewhere, who knows?

[9:24] Steve Haggard: Totally. I think about this all the time. I think about it all the time, because there's something, the universe is funny like that. Like it gives you opportunities all the time. And what you think you can't always see, you know, the thing that hurts right now might be the absolute best thing for you.

[9:43] Alan Seales: Well, so I guess opportunity wise, then, you were working, I mean, you worked a lot out of Chicago in that area. And then, so coming into Harry Potter now, did you move to New York and were kind of doing the New York scene for a while and then made your debut? Or did you get the audition and come to New York to make your debut?

[10:04] Steve Haggard: Yeah, good question. So I was in Chicago. And like I said, I love it. It's such a good theater town. You can work there. You can do all kinds of work. You can do Shakespeare. What do you feel like doing? There's weird stuff happening. There's classical stuff. There's the whole spectrum. And so it's a great place to get experience. It's a great place to do the art, do the work in a way that you can't always do when there's pressure and money and, you know, all that other stuff involved. And the thing is, like in Chicago, there's just not very much money. So, you know, I did...

[10:48] Alan Seales: Well, not like New York either, but, you know, that's the artist's life.

[10:52] Steve Haggard: Right. But like, I guess what I mean is like, the payoff, if you get something in New York, it tends to be a little different than the payoff that you would get. Because like, and not that you always need to get something from creating art, not that you always need to, you know, I reached a point in Chicago where I was like, oh, man, this has been my home for such a long time. And I never thought to leave because I loved it. I love the work. I loved the people I was working with. I loved what we were able to accomplish and the artistry. And I reached a point where I was like, oh, and I want something else. I want something else. This is a little off topic, I think, from your question. But like, I guess when I looked at my life, like maybe six years ago, I was like, I'm not happy. I'm not happy in my life. And I had to figure out like, what that was about, you know?

[11:50] Alan Seales: It was mid-2017. Keeping score at home.

[11:54] Steve Haggard: Yeah. So, I like, I figured everyone in Chicago was like, wait a second. But I had... I guess I realized like, I had some stuff that I wanted to change, because my life sort of no longer looked... I crafted a life that didn't have... that was really safe, that didn't challenge me, that didn't push me out of my comfort zone. And so, I stopped learning. I stopped learning about myself. I stopped being curious about, you know, myself and also like, the world. And I was pretty depressed. And I was like, man, I need to figure this out. And so, this audition came up, this Harry Potter audition came up. And I was like, that's crazy. What a crazy... that's crazy. I can't believe... I can't believe that.

And I read through and I was like, this is awesome. Totally gonna do it. You know, thinking it's a long shot. And then they were like, hey, yeah, come be in Harry Potter. And I was cast in the ensemble. And so, I moved to New York. And New York has a funny way of like, if you've got stuff you need to resolve in yourself, New York will find a way to sort of bring that out and be like, hey, here's your stuff. You haven't resolved that. Because there's so much happening here. There's not enough space. There's not enough time. There's not enough anything. So, if you've got some unexamined stuff, New York is going to bring it out. And so, it was a blessing in a lot of ways. And this job was a blessing. That was a little off topic.

[13:41] Alan Seales: No, no, it was actually perfect. And again, it's one of those things that hit you when you needed to be.

[13:51] Alan Seales: You were in Chicago, and so it was the original cast you joined the ensemble, or was it a replacement? I mean, either way, I guess irrelevant.

[14:07] Steve Haggard: Oh, in The Cursed Child?

[14:09] Alan Seales: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[14:10] Steve Haggard: I was a part of the second year, so the first year and then the second year was the first time they did a recast.

[14:18] Alan Seales: Right. So I guess then I just was curious as to why they went to Chicago to find actors, because I know a lot about the musical theatre world, much more than the straight play world. And after watching Cursed Child, it's presented like a movie. It's got a score. It's got an underscore, you know, the whole time, like everything, scene transitions have music, and scenes, whole scenes have music sometimes. And it's like you're watching a movie, which of course is by design. But when you're doing, you know, the global search for the lead of the whiz, or whatever the case is, it's a very specific thing that you have to go wide for. Is it normal to cast such a wide net when looking for replacements for a straight play like this?

[15:13] Steve Haggard: Um, I think maybe for Broadway, and they went to Chicago, they went everywhere. I think they held auditions that first year they did the recast, their first recast, they held auditions in LA, they were in Chicago, I think maybe Atlanta or someplace else. And the reason I think why, this is just me speculating, FYI. But the show, it's such a specific ask of an actor, because it is such a specific play, the language of the show is, is, like, like you said, there's a score underneath it, it's big, there's a it's a spectacle in a lot of ways. And then also, it needs to be grounded in humanity. And the actors need to be able to fill that, the expectation that the audience comes in with, with these relationships that they already have with these characters.

So they need to fill a certain amount of that. But they also need to be able to ground the world and the reality. And I think that was really, as I see the people that come into the show, they all tend to have that in common, they tend to be able to bring a relatable humanity to the work. And I think that that essentially is, you know, that's, that's what we're going for over there, which is like, we, you know, it's, it's a mat, it's a, it's magic and explosions. And it's all these illusions. And then also, it's a story about family and friends who are going through some stuff. That's the goal. And I think that's why they wanted to find the right people to step into it.

[17:03] Alan Seales: That's really interesting. And I just drew a parallel between this and Back to the Future, actually, which ironically, Chris Fisher, who did some of the illusions for Chris Child, also did illusions for Back to the Future. But something, I just saw Back to the Future recently and was dissecting that. And it's a, it's a story about family at the heart of it, which Harry Potter, Cursed Child also is. So, aspiring writers out there, take note, that you can disguise anything you want in sci-fi to make it a good family story on the inside. But it's really, yeah, it's interesting that you say that. I guess there is very much, there's a lot of specificity to the actors. And I mean, not only do you need to look the part more or less, right?

The Weasleys have to have red hair and Harry Potter's got to have a certain build. And I just love, I love how it was all put together. And we'll get to the illusions. And I know you're going to tell us all the secrets because you can. As a child then, I mean, these stories have been around as long, like I'm 43 right now. And these stories have been around since I was probably got late, early 20s or something. It's been around for a while. And so, so now Cursed Child, this is being built as sort of like the eighth book. So it was Jack Thorne and John Tiffany wrote it. And then J.K. Rowling also did some of it, bits and pieces of it. So it is a continuation of the story. It is a continuation of the books.

And I guess this is the funky thing about being like, you know, going back to a little bit what we were talking about before. This is the funky thing about doing a show that like, like Back to the Future, like Harry Potter, where people are, they're walking in with relationships to these characters and expectations. And this feeling that they had when they watched that first movie, or they read that first book. I don't know how you get around that judgment. You can't, right? Because people are coming in with a certain amount of expectation. And they're going to sit back and go, well, that's not mine. This isn't whatever. And so I think our job is to say, hey, we know you got expectations. We know, and we're going to like, respect those expectations and take them in and then also challenge them a little bit and say, and flip it, flip it a little bit so that you can have that same feeling that you had when you read that book for the first time.

Because that's what those books do really well. That's what Back to the Future does really well. The movies, which is like, it takes, it's like, hey, here it is, here's what you know, and then it sort of flips it, and it surprises you, and it creates a curiosity in you to go along for the ride. So in the first bit of the show, you have to sort of like, you have to say, hey, this is a continuation and it's also a new thing. And I think if we're good at our jobs that evening, if we're good at our jobs, it really works. The way the story is structured, the way it's written, you end up going on this journey with us and learning something new about the characters, which is I think like, it's not just us telling you over and over again, the same things you already know.

You know what I mean? Like, which sometimes is comforting and also like, okay, well, why did I go see that, you know? So we're giving you the opportunity to step into the same world through a different lens.

[21:03] Steve Haggard: Yes. Yes. That's what I was going to say now that you pointed that out. It makes perfect sense. Hang on, everybody. We're just going to take a quick break.

[21:13] Alan Seales: All right. Now we're back. We're establishing the world we're in, where we're going into Hogwarts. We've got the characters that we always know we've got. We've got Hermione, Ron and Harry. So we're establishing that, but then introducing the new thing of the children now, like your son and Draco's son are now become best friends. It keeps this healthy, amazing balance between, you're right, between the nostalgia that so many of us who go to see it have grown up with and introducing this brand new story and modernizing, bringing like modern themes into what we're watching, while in real life, live on stage, seeing these illusions, some of which I still don't know how you've done. So I think it's absolutely amazing.

But I want to go to the length too, because you started in 2019 when it was still two parts. It was two distinct shows. So you do like a full day, part one and part two, and then matinee and then the evening. Right? So then coming into that, had you ever done anything that intense before? Because that's learning two shows at once.

[22:27] Steve Haggard: Yeah, Alan, no. I don't know that there was any. And now even in the one part, sometimes, yeah, no, it was entirely overwhelming. I've not been in a part of a production that big. But also like, you know, you're stepping into just, you know, this huge ideas, these huge, the characters are huge. I mean, like, the idea of being Harry Potter is overwhelming. You know, the idea of like, oh, yes, and now I'm walking, like, what are your given circumstances? My given circumstances are I am going to Hogwarts now to talk to Professor McGonagall. That's wild, you know? So like, and not to mention just the sheer scope of the production. And the theater, I remember the first time I walked into the theater. It's incredible. They completely redid the whole thing, but you feel like you're stepping into the world. You feel like you're stepping into Hogwarts to a certain extent, because like, just everything is curated to sort of feel a part of that world. And so that-

[23:41] Alan Seales: I've been like the set change in the lobby during intermission now, but I won't spoil that. But that was cool. All right, go ahead.

[23:49] Steve Haggard: But yeah, no, I'd never been a part of a production quite this size with this many working parts and people. I mean, there is in that building, the best group of people and the hardest working group of people. Because, you know, you do the show eight times a week, we're there quite a bit with each other. And so it takes a good group of people to sort of keep things fun and keep it going in the right direction.

[24:26] Alan Seales: I was going to ask if you had a favorite part, but now we'll caveat this, because of course, there was a pandemic when it came back. It was combined down to just one show. So a bunch of stuff must have gotten cut. Do you have a favorite scene or a part that you no longer get to do because of the time shrink?

[24:46] Steve Haggard: Interesting. Good question. Yeah, there's a few things. The funny thing about it now is that I don't recall a lot of stuff because I've had to sort of lose my attachment to it in order to do the one part, in order to get through, you know. So a lot of it has turned into subtext, or I've had to sort of put it in the safe for a different time. Oh, there was a dream sequence. I wasn't even a part of it. And it was awesome. I loved it. There was a dream sequence that happened that used to scare the crap out of me. And I would watch it every night because it was so much fun.

[25:41] Alan Seales: Don't you love being scared?

[25:44] Steve Haggard: Yeah.

[25:45] Alan Seales: Scared safely. Yeah.

[25:46] Steve Haggard: I had a transition after that. So I was always prepped, ready to go for my transition and I would watch it. It was a Harry nightmare. And Harry was having a nightmare. And he was a kid. And he was in the cemetery with Aunt Petunia. And Aunt Petunia was going off about something. And all of a sudden, there's like this rumble. And this hand shoots out of the grave that they're at. And it's Voldemort's hand. And it was like, the audience would go...

[26:27] Alan Seales: It was the absolute best. It was such a well-crafted scare moment, which I think on stage sometimes is difficult to do. But it was so perfect. It was like a perfect little moment. And I love the fact that you got to see Aunt Petunia. But there's so much stuff. And sometimes when you're in it, you forget what it looks like. You forget just how striking some of that stuff is. You hear the audience reaction, you hear the kids. This is maybe one of my favorite parts about being Harry Potter in the show is like, a dear friend of mine came with her nieces and nephew. And they came to see the show. And she was like, can you come and say hi afterwards? I was like, yeah, totally. And I went outside. And the kids were dressed in their Hogwarts getup and their Gryffindor robes and stuff. And we were talking about that. And I said, well, what do you think? You know, what do you think of the show?

[27:43] Steve Haggard: And they said, well, we've got a lot of questions. I was like, sweet, bring it on. Here we go. And to hear, to get to talk to kids about like, what their joy is around those stuff, the illusions, the relationships, they wanted to talk about Snape, they wanted to talk about how we did, you know, this or that. And they wanted to talk about the wands. And like, there's a million questions about like, particulars around, you know, what this is and what this means and why we did this. And watching that sort of reaction and that sort of like processing of the play is like, that's where I'm like, cool, this is such a good job. This is such a fun job to be able to do. What's the reality to them? Yeah.

And that's what when you get sucked into this world through the books, through the movies, through this play, it's like, that's the feeling that I had, which is like, oh my God, I can't wait till the next book. I want to see more of Hogwarts. I want to see more of this. What is that, you know? And that makes me really happy.

[29:07] Steve Haggard: Something else. Switching gears for a second. Something I wanted to touch on. During, I think it was mid-2020, you did a motorcycle trip from Washington State to New York City. Is that right?

[29:19] Steve Haggard: Yeah. Would you see that? My cyber stock, you know? Yeah. So, I have a motorcycle and I love to ride that motorcycle. And it has taken me all over the place. It's taken me across the country. I drove out here from Washington State. So, I spent a lot of the shutdown during the pandemic in Washington State on the Olympic Peninsula. Because, you know, that was a really hard time for a lot of different reasons. And my sister lives out there. And I had gone through a pretty bad breakup and lost my job. Because we were doing Harry Potter and we shut down. And I was like, well, I'm gonna go to Washington State. And I was out there with my sister. And I bought a motorcycle during that time. And proceeded to ride it all through Oregon and California and Nevada.

I got stuck in the Mojave Desert. And like, went to see some beautiful, beautiful places. And honestly, it was me courting a bit of hardship in order to sort of like, figure out to have a more authentic relationship with myself, you know? And so, when I was a kid, I was like three. I had this plastic motorcycle. And I would ride it everywhere. And it was just like, you know, you foot powered and you zoom down the street. And I fell in love with it. And ever since then, I've always wanted a motorcycle. I've always like, dreamed about scooters and motorcycles. And during that time, I was like, what have I been waiting for? There's always people telling me, oh, it's too dangerous. Don't do this.

Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. And I was like, I'm doing it. So I got it. And I was fortunate enough to have the time and the space to do that. And then when Harry Potter came back, I was like, oh, maybe I'll ship it. Maybe I'll ship it across the country. Because I wasn't about to leave it. Then I was like, I don't want somebody else touching it. I'm just going to ride it. So it took me like 14 days. It took me two weeks. I got stuck in Montana and the rainstorm that lasted like three days. That was intense. I stayed in this really like sketchy motel in this small town in Montana for three days. And I remember I walked into the reception area. And this lady was like eating a sandwich.

And I was drenched. I was soaking. And there was like water puddles. I was like squishing as I walked because I was just soaked. And I covered in my full motorcycle gear. And she just like stopped eating. She like puts her sandwich down and goes, can I help you? And I was like, yeah, I need a room. And yeah, it was like there was something about, like I said, that sort of putting a ridiculous goal in front of yourself or like something that's a bit absurd that sounds exciting. And also like, probably will come with some problems. Like, you know, your tire blows out or you get stuck in the rain or whatever. And for me, that's what this whole experience has been like in New York working on. It's like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe like what an experience this is.

That's, I think, how I want to approach my work. That's how I want to approach my life. That's how I want to approach, you know, not to sound too whatever about it, but that's how I want to approach every day, which is like, what's going to happen today? And like, maybe it's going to be ridiculous. And maybe it's going to be super fun. And like, let's find out. But I think during that time, I needed that sort of an event to sort of feel some stuff.

[33:55] Steve Haggard: It's learning new skills. I mean, if you want to use the analogy of, you know, you don't know what's going to happen, you might blow out a tire, right? So it was on your Instagram account, you posted a picture of like your bike saying it's about to go across country, right? And so in the picture, you've got an extra tire strapped underneath all your supplies in case your tire blows out. And I needed it too, which is good. Yeah. And I think, you know, the pandemic and other things, right? You could use the analogy of the pandemic. Not only did your back tire blow, but your front tire blew. You cracked the radiator and you threw a piston, right? The whole industry was shut down. And then you learn how to fix it and you become your own life mechanic. Horrible analogy. But now you can fix, you learn the skills to fix more as you're moving faster. And you know, if you don't challenge yourself, you're never going to grow. So I respect that so much.

[34:47] Steve Haggard: Wow. Thanks.

[34:48] Alan Seales: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hang on, everybody. We're just going to take a quick break.

[34:53] Alan Seales: All right. Now we're back. And as someone who's also owned three motorcycles myself, I do appreciate the ride. There's something about just the open road, man.

[35:02] Steve Haggard: It's the best. I mean, it's the best. And it is totally dangerous. And every time my mom, every time I go, my mom is like, you better text me. You better text me. And I do. But it's like, sometimes, sometimes mom, sometimes I don't. Sorry.

[35:21] Alan Seales: Yeah. I want to wrap up with three closing questions I ask everybody on the episodes. The first one just real simply is what motivates you?

[35:30] Steve Haggard: Oh, wow. That's a really great question. It's something I think about a lot. So I feel like what motivates me is living as much as I can for living as authentically as I can, right now. You know, I spent so much time in my life, and my life, I think, stuck in my head, dealing with like, you know, worries and anxiety and always worried about something else. And I think missed a lot of opportunities and missed a lot of opportunities for joy, opportunities to enjoy what's happening right now.

[36:18] Alan Seales: Mm hmm.

[36:19] Steve Haggard: And so I think what motivates me is this, this, like, better version of me, not in like a judgy way, but like, that guy is in me, and I'm going to be that guy someday. You know, and I want that to be a reality. And that starts right now. You know?

[36:42] Alan Seales: I love that. All right. What advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[36:51] Steve Haggard: Cultivate self-compassion.

[36:53] Alan Seales: Self-compassion.

[36:55] Steve Haggard: It is the strongest, most powerful thing that I think we never, that isn't taught. It's not something that's taught or talked about a lot. It's absolutely free. And it's one of the hardest things to figure out for yourself. But self-compassion is the best. And it allows you to have compassion for everything and everyone else. And in that way, making that space for yourself to be who you are, actually, as a human, full of mistakes and problems and anxieties and all these things, allows that to then, allows you to move past that. You know?

[37:46] Alan Seales: I do know.

[37:49] Steve Haggard: I'm getting a little mystic on you.

[37:53] Alan Seales: No, no, man. As someone who's, I've done my own therapy journey, I've done my own self-discovery, and you're speaking my language perfectly. But that for me, I wish somebody had talked to me about that. It's so hard. I struggle with that so much in my life. I built criticisms in my head. I built a whole thing just in my head, that was just made up stuff that I was walking around making life choices about, that didn't have anything to do with what was actually happening.

[38:24] Steve Haggard: It's a reality you craft.

[38:26] Alan Seales: You know? It was insane. And it all sort of stemmed from me not being able to be like, hey, man, it's okay. It's okay that that happened. And you're still, you know, I love you. You're doing all right.

[38:43] Steve Haggard: Yeah. Learn to forgive yourself. That was the hardest thing I had to deal with. I mean, and it wasn't anything specific. I feel you, though. It's just like the criticism. You're like, maybe I'm just not good enough, so I won't even try. And then you end up, it's this circular thing that you can't get out of without help. Yeah. It's nasty. Oh, man, that's a whole other episode. Okay. So, last question.

[39:03] Steve Haggard: Thanks for letting me talk about it.

[39:05] Alan Seales: Last question. This one's a lot more fun. If you could only see one show for the rest of your life, but you can see it as many times as you want, what would you see?

[39:13] Steve Haggard: One show? Oh, boy. Like a play? Are we talking about plays?

[39:17] Alan Seales: Any stage show. We'll classify stage show.

[39:21] Steve Haggard: Like a specific production? Or like, I could see this play in different productions?

[39:29] Alan Seales: Specific production.

[39:30] Steve Haggard: Okay. I would watch this production of The Seagull that I saw in this small theater in Wisconsin. It was beautiful. But yeah, The Seagull. All right. Thanks.

[39:47] Alan Seales: I feel like you're asking me questions that require concise answers, and I'm not giving them to you.

[39:53] Steve Haggard: No, it's funny. Some people are like, boom, this is it. And some people take a whole other hour to think through their thoughts. It's fine. There's no right or wrong.

[40:02] Alan Seales: This is my favorite thing about plays though, in theater, is that it happens in that moment. You know what I mean? And there's something about it, the nature of it, that it should feel like it's never going to get to be done. It won't ever happen again. This is the only moment.

[40:22] Steve Haggard: Yeah.

[40:23] Alan Seales: You know what I mean?

[40:23] Steve Haggard: Yeah. That's why I like previews. Because you're still crafting and you're crafting. And then after you open, script is locked, right? But previews, there may legitimately be a version that you, the audience, sees that literally will never happen again.

[40:38] Steve Haggard: Yeah. That's lovely. Yeah. I never thought about that.

[40:40] Alan Seales: Yeah. It's great. It's great. Okay. So where do you play the social media game? How can we find you online?

[40:44] Steve Haggard: I'm on Instagram. I'm on Instagram. I'm not very good at Instagram.

[40:52] Alan Seales: Join the crowd.

[40:54] Steve Haggard: But I'm on there noodling around.

[40:58] Alan Seales: All right. You can find me at thetheaterpodcast.com. I'm on Instagram, threads, and TikTok at theater underscore podcast on Facebook. Leave a rating and a review wherever you are listening to this episode right now. Thanks to Jukebox the Ghost for the intro and outro music. And Steve, thanks, man. Gosh, thank you for sharing. Thank you for getting personal. This has been great. I really enjoyed talking with you.

[41:25] Steve Haggard: Yeah. Thanks a lot. Thanks for listening to me.