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[0:00] Isabelle McCalla: Hi, I'm Izzy McCalla, and welcome to The Theatre Podcast with Alan Seales.

[0:10] Alan Seales: Hey, everyone. This is Alan Seales, and welcome to an all-new episode of The Theatre Podcast, intimate personal conversations with the industry's biggest names. Of course, this episode is no different. We have the lovely, lovely, and completely honest and vulnerable to a fault, her words, Isabelle McCalla, or Izzy McCalla, as her friends know her. She's currently starring in Marlena in Water for Elephants, and just is beautiful, beautiful to watch her perform, to watch her sing. Something I really, really loved about this episode was just, as I said just a second ago, vulnerable to a fault. She is brutally honest, and we actually get into, like, some relationship advice and how that's translated into her being on stage, and the last time that she and I really spoke in an episode was back in episode 38, where her and Caitlin Kinnunen were on for The Prom, so that was obviously back in summer of 2019.

It's been a while, but this is the first solo episode with Izzy, and man, did we dive in, and she was so amazingly honest. Izzy, if you're listening now, thank you so much. Can't wait to see you again soon. So, as always, find me online on the socials. Tag me in your stories. Let me know you're listening. Share this with a friend, and, oh, everybody, I hope you enjoy this episode with Izzy McCalla. Today's guest is another friend of the podcast, having first appeared in episode 38 back in 2019, and our special 150th Pride episode in June of 2021. This episode officially means she is now the show's first three-peat guest. Since closing The Prom in 2019, she has added a butt-ton more credits. That is an official scientific term, including the Paper Mill Playhouse productions of Clue and Hercules, Footloose at the Kennedy Center, and was part of the closing cast of Shocked earlier this year, and now she's helping lead the recently opened production of Water for Elephants as Marlena. Izzy McCalla, welcome back to the theater podcast.

[2:16] Isabelle McCalla: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Oh my gosh, I'm so honored that I'm the first three-peat.

[2:21] Alan Seales: And ironically, though, this is the third time you've appeared, but the first time we've had a solo episode.

[2:25] Isabelle McCalla: Yes, yes, yes. It's time. I've earned it.

[2:34] Alan Seales: It is time. Another Disney quote.

[2:39] Isabelle McCalla: Yes, correct. What is it? Rafiki?

[2:39] Alan Seales: Yeah, Rafiki. Yeah, it's Rafiki. It is time.

[2:47] Isabelle McCalla: So dude, you've been freaking busy and just recovered quite well coming out of COVID, I must say.

[2:56] Isabelle McCalla: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. I don't know where I am in space and time, but I am so thrilled to be here and grateful. And I did get very lucky post-pandemic. I feel like I've been planted and I've been burrowing under the surface for a few years between prom and last year, I would say. There's a lot of things that were happening in workshops and Zoom table reads and developmental things. And it always felt like, okay, when the time comes, the time's coming. And in the past year, it was kind of an explosion. And now I'm kind of riding this crazy rollercoaster of my life. And I'm so happy to be here. Everything was put on pause. The industry was shut down. People didn't know when it was coming back or how it was coming back.

[3:42] Alan Seales: I mean, I think a testament, what you just said, a testament to that is the fact that there are a million and a half shows opening on Broadway right now.

[3:52] Isabelle McCalla: Oh my God, it is the Thunderdome. It's crazy.

[3:52] Alan Seales: Yeah, I can't take credit for that. Jessica Stone, our intrepid director, calls it the Thunderdome, which I lovingly stole. And I think it's brilliant.

[4:02] Isabelle McCalla: Two men enter, one man leave. Tina Turner. Look it up, people. Mad Max, if nobody knows what we're talking about. The original Mad Max with Tina Turner back in the day.

[4:14] Alan Seales: So anyway, dude, this whole kind of career trajectory, it's been interesting because The Clue at Paper Mill was your first play.

[4:23] Isabelle McCalla: Yes.

[4:26] Alan Seales: Right? Professional play.

[4:29] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah, first professional play.

[4:29] Alan Seales: And it was you and an amazing cast of comedic geniuses.

[4:34] Isabelle McCalla: Geniuses. I laughed every day. I mean, during the show too. I was terrible. But yeah.

[4:41] Alan Seales: Well, what I want to ask about is because you've got... Aladdin was your Broadway debut. You were Jasmine, not Aladdin. And Jasmine is more or less the not so funny character in Aladdin. And Alyssa Green is sort of the not funny character on The Prom. And now you get to play Yvette in Clue. And it was like comedy, comedy, comedy, comedy, which obviously I would suspect led to playing Maisie in Shocked as well, which is also a musical comedy. But rewinding a second, I'll ask the stupid question later of like, what do you like better, comedy or drama? But you personally, Izzy, I know you as like a funny, clever person, but do you enjoy being in productions? Or I guess, what do you gravitate towards more? Which is not what you're more easily cast in, I will say.

[5:32] Isabelle McCalla: Right, no. I gravitate towards strong ensemble pieces, I think, is the answer to that question. Because I don't think it's as definitive as comedy or drama, because I love both equally. And I'm actually very proud of my career and proud of my ability to go back and forth between the genres. But I've always loved ensemble comedy, specifically. The Office is my favorite show, comedically of all time. But also The White Lotus is a great drama, ensemble drama. I think Aladdin was probably like the only one that's not as much of an ensemble. It is an ensemble show, but in terms of divvying it up, it feels a little less spread thin. But Clue, I worked with our director, Casey Hushon, on that project, because she was the associate for Casey Nicholaw on Aladdin and Prom.

And we got on like gangbusters, and we're constantly making each other laugh. And this opportunity came up to do the show, and it happened during the pandemic. And during the pandemic, I started taking online acting courses with like, one of the best acting coaches in the world. Her name's Leslie Khan. She's LA based. And she's known for her comedy prowess. And so I got from her, I learned a lot about how to analyze a comedy script, how to look for the jokes, how to build to a joke, how to get it both technically and organically. And I happened to audition for that show for Clue while I was still in the class. And the way the class is structured is you kind of coach each other on your own auditions and material.

And you kind of take away the shame factor of it all. So I coached it with two friends. And also I have to say, Clue the movie, one of my favorites of all time. I mean, on the side of it, like Madeline Kahn is a genius. Everybody in that movie is a genius. It's just like comedy gold. Tim Curry, 20 minute monologue at the end, when they sing for He's a Childhood Fellow. I mean, there's a new favorite part I have the entire film. So I deeply loved it. I know it. It also helps that I am Haitian. So French was my first language. I'm really good at dialects. And so like putting on the French accent was no problem for me. And I knew that in that show, Yvette was like the only part I could play. And I knew she just had to be so serious.

Like that's the thing about comedy. It's like you are taking seriously things that are not serious whatsoever. Like the stakes are just so high. And so I just, I went for it and went crazy and luckily got it. And then was in a room with Kathy Fitzgerald and Mark Price and John Tracy Egan and Alex Mandel. It was just a luxury of comedy genius. And I learned so much from them about play and about structure and also about knowing when to cut back, like knowing how to be precise in your comedy. And that's the thing about Clue specifically is it's kind of slapstick comedy. So, so much of it was about hitting the mark in a way that would get the laugh. And it's about how you set up the joke for the other person.

And I learned a lot. Like there were so many things that I wanted to do with my feather duster. And I was, I was trying out a lot. And Casey Hedren would be like, it's funny. We can't have that there because it takes away from this other moment. And it was, it was a really good lesson that just because you can't get the laugh doesn't mean you should in service for the greater story. I've heard that from the best comedians.

[9:12] Alan Seales: Yeah. Alex Brightman for one and Kate Rockwell. Kate Rockwell was the first person I talked to who was like, comedy is seriously a science. And then that got me into really saying like, oh, you like the funny guy, the class clown is not going to be necessarily good on stage with a comedic script because they're going to want all the attention. And you can't do that. A comedy, like you said, is about finding the moments, experimenting, finding what doesn't work. So you whittle away and you're left with what does, right. And then, and then going for it and not being afraid. And that's, that right there, the being afraid, the anxiety.

[9:46] Isabelle McCalla: Oh, that, then you kill it. It kills comedy. Nothing kills comedy faster than hesitation and anxiety. Because if you, yeah.

[9:54] Alan Seales: No, no, go ahead. What were you going to say?

[9:54] Isabelle McCalla: No, I was just going to say, if we don't be, if we as the actors don't buy into it 100%, the audience won't. So like, yeah. So I listened back to our episode 38 with you and you and Caitlin and the two of you coming out, we, we interviewed and released that episode in June, um, May of 2019. So before the Tony Awards, it was all in the midst of the Tony hype. Anxiety and, and panic through the roof with both of you. It was, it's a fun episode to listen back to.

[10:24] Alan Seales: I should listen back to it now to see where I was.

[10:29] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah, that's interesting. So that's why I wanted to, to, um, to kind of bring it back to, because you brought up like the anxiety and stuff about, especially about comedy. And like at that time in 2019, you were, you were thrust into the limelight in a way with The Prom that you hadn't been with, with Jasmine at that point in Aladdin.

[10:43] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah. And you were, you were still finding yourself, um, very much of like, who do I want to be personally? Who do I want to be on social media? Who do I want to be on stage? It was like, it was three different Izzies.

[10:58] Isabelle McCalla: Totally. And so, and so now we are four and a half years, five years later. So have you made any progress there? It's okay to say no, we're all broken.

[11:03] Isabelle McCalla: We are, but I definitely made progress and the lessons get harder, you know, as you get older, it's just like, uh, okay, now I know. Oh man, I think back when I was 25 doing The Prom and in that, in the midst of that award season. And yeah, it was, it was crazy because it was all new and there, yes, I was thrust in a limelight, but it didn't feel, Caitlin and I were going through separate things, you know, because she was nominated for the lead actress and she was going through that Tony Hoopla and I was going through it by having to be at all events and support everybody and the show and also being wildly intimidated. That was my thing is like, I was so green and so in awe of the people around me.

[12:18] Isabelle McCalla: The new reality for me that I had never really thought of the business aspect of it before. Plus, I was going through like a breakup and I was just in therapy and trying to find myself and all of that. So, in that sense, I've, oh my god, I've made so much progress. I think like we hit the pandemic and I, after the prom, I was kind of so, I was so determined to climb the career ladder and I was so ambitious. But it was about checking boxes and it wasn't about doing projects that made me feel happy, I realized. And when the pandemic hit and we, you know, they said, like I was in La Jolla doing Fly at that time in San Diego. And we said that we were shutting our show down. You know, we had two weeks left of our contract.

La Jolla Playhouse was like, you can stay if you want. I remember we got the email that we were shutting down and I was relieved. I was at a place where I didn't want to do it anymore. I was so emotionally drained, creatively taxed, angry. I was in a really sad and angry place. And then La Jolla Playhouse was wonderful because they let us, I ended up staying in San Diego for eight months. And I had my best friend, Storm Lever, living below me. I had my best friend who's my cousin living in San Diego at the time. So we would go hiking and to the beach all the time. And so I, and I spent a lot of time by myself, as many people did. And I began to realize that all this anger and this burnout came from just constantly trying to please people and constantly trying to do everything for everyone else's validation.

And I didn't know who I was in the midst of all of that. I didn't know all of the dreams I had, I realized, had to do with somebody else saying, you did a good job. It had nothing to do with my own personal fulfillment.

[14:12] Alan Seales: So you were trying to continually impress those people who were giving you the praise?

[14:17] Isabelle McCalla: Yes, constantly. Because I grew up thinking, sorry, mom, I've been through therapy. She knows this. We're good now. But like, this is my trauma. It's a good trauma to have, luckily. But like, I was not allowed to get lower than a 95 on the test growing up. I was the A plus student. I was Alyssa Green. I was Hermione Granger. I was whatever type, except I'm not type A at all, but I was the like, have to be right, can't be challenged because for me, success equaled love. And I was afraid that if I wasn't successful, I'd be abandoned. And so my pandemic was wrestling with that and figuring out where does Isabel actually fit outside of all of this praise? Because what if she doesn't get any? Because right now there isn't any. It's just you existing as a human.

[15:06] Alan Seales: And I know. You've just unlocked my own Pandora's box with that.

[15:12] Isabelle McCalla: Oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah. Welcome. It's a journey. So yeah, so then my pandemic became about that. And I spent a lot of time in nature, contemplating and finding myself. And it was such a relief to not be working because I didn't have to compare myself to other people and their timelines. But I still had the fears, I should say, too. I should say that there were – can I curse on this show?

[15:35] Alan Seales: Fuck yeah.

[15:37] Isabelle McCalla: Okay. I'm going to say something that for women, especially young women in this industry, I feel like we all go through this at a time. I was 26 when the pandemic stopped. When we realized it was going to be a longer time off, one of my initial – after the like, I'm relieved that it's burnout. Once things started, we started doing Zoom meetings or whatever, and we realized Cedar wasn't coming back for a while. I remember having a thought, I'm losing fuckability years, which is so messed up, right? Because that's in – I am looking at my career from the male gaze, from the patriarchal women actors are only as valued as they are young, as they are fit, as they are fuckable, for lack of a better word.

[16:25] Alan Seales: You mean literally, literally fuckable, not career –

[16:29] Isabelle McCalla: No, I mean literally fuckable.

[16:30] Alan Seales: Career ingenue. Wow.

[16:31] Isabelle McCalla: No, but I mean, I also had the thought recently, which was like, I just – anyway, sorry, that's a whole other camera worm. I'm actually not going to go into that one. But that was a big wake up call for me when I realized I was having that thought too, because I'm like, oh, I see, I put my value not only in my praise, but in how it's all about love, right? And how people want to engage with me. And I had to make peace with the fact that also, A, I have no control over what other people think of me. And B, that's dumb. That's just a dumb way to live your life. And also, who cares? Who cares? It doesn't matter. So I had to let go of that too. And then I ended up moving back to New York. And in the midst of working through all of that, I started figuring out who it is that I am, what I like about myself, essentially.

And I let my curiosity kind of take over. I let my friendships take over. I'm lucky enough to have really, really good friends where we can have really fascinating and deep and tough conversations with each other. So we get into the nitty gritty and don't shy away from it, which is great. And I feel like I gained a really strong sense of inner knowing and confidence within all of that.

[17:54] Isabelle McCalla: There was no one moment that it clicked. It just kind of sort of happened over time, to the point that when Clue came along, I was ready to take on a new challenge. And I was ready to be in an ensemble comedy because I was ready to learn and play and fail, as opposed to feel like I was being judged for not having it correct the first rehearsal. And I was ready to play with people. When I did the prom, I was so scared. I was just intimidated the entire time around Brooks and Beth and Angie. I was like, I don't want to make a joke because I don't know how to make jokes around you guys. I don't know how to... I put people on pedestals. That was another thing I realized. I was like, I need to take everybody off the goddamn pedestal.

We are literally all equal, which I would spout in my everyday life on social media, like I was the equality queen. I wasn't being kind to myself with the same judicious ruling. I then got to a place where I could be with these comedy legends and I could just be like, oh, you're fun. Let's play. Let's be weird together. And so like Kathy Fitzgerald and I were just silly together and so stupid and making dirty jokes and fart jokes. And oh my gosh, Kathy Fitzgerald brought a fart machine to rehearsal one day. That took me out. John Tracy Egan put it... I'm sorry to go back to Clue, but we were in a performance of Clue and Yvette, spoiler alert, dies, gets throttled with a rope. And I had a moment where I got wheeled out on a pool table and all of the six players are running from the library where they find the dead cop to the billiard room.

And they stand in front of the billiard table and they say, okay, I think we're going to be safe here. And right before I roll out, I hear the fart machine. And I'm like, oh my God, where's the fart machine? Where is it? And I hear it again. And I'm like, where is it? Not only did I have to hold in my laughter while it was dead, Alan, I was lying upside down like this on the pool table, trying not to laugh hysterically as I'm like, and they get in front of me. I'm trying to hold it in. We go, they go, I think we're safe in here. Massive fart. Massive fart. They all lose their goddamn minds. Apparently John Tracy Egan had the fart remote in his pocket and had been playing with it. It was catastrophic and hysterical. And I loved every second of it.

[20:14] Isabelle McCalla: Back in my early regional theater days, when I was very, very non-union and green, we would always say, I'll pay your equity fine if you do this. Like we would have our, like, I would've had a shirt. I'll pay your equity fine. Yeah, I'll pay your equity fine. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So silly. So bad. I hope I don't get into trouble. It's fine. We're past it. It's been two years.

[20:37] Alan Seales: If he hasn't been fined yet, he won't be fined now.

[20:39] Isabelle McCalla: He won't be fined now. But anyway, so I was in a place where I could have fun. And I think that just kind of continued. And I got lucky with these jobs where like each job kind of built my confidence in that sphere and built my belief in myself that I was ready to take on the part. So by the time I got to Maisie in Shucked, I was ready to lead a show. And I was ready to be in an ensemble comedy in front and center, which was terrifying and exhilarating. And I was lucky enough again, to be once again, thrust into a community of fantastic actors who had been doing the show for a while. And that was the scary part for me was that they'd been with the show for a year at this point. And I was just so green.

And that's the scary part about replacing is that you have to fail in front of people. So like my previews was in front of paying audiences that were like, great, what do you got? And I think it took me until probably my three month run, or four month run by the end of it to feel totally confident in what I did on that stage. But let me tell you, I had fun every single day. And it was a journey. Like it was so fun, because there were some scenes that like, I nailed from the beginning. And then there was always like a couple scenes that like, depending on the night wouldn't land. And I realized a lot oftentimes, I was asking for the laugh. Like I knew the laugh had to be there. So I was playing for the laugh, as opposed to like actually listening and needing something from my scene partner.

And then I would get the laugh. And then yeah, so then now to step into Marlena, I again feel this is such a long winded answer. Best answer I've ever had. Thank you. But it's, I feel I've been with Marlena now for two years. And I am at this point where I'm not only ready to lead a company, but ready to originate a role and ready for what that entails in terms of the gaze and in terms of the critique and in terms of the responsibility of delivering on our show and our story and also playing a character who's beloved in this novel. And now versus five years ago, I think I have a deeper sense of inner peace than I had. I think I have, I still have the people pleaser in me, 100%. I'm still fighting with my need for validation, but we're all at, we're in this business, of course, we're all going to have that.

But I think I have more of a sense, I can talk to myself more gently, and I can hear the fear and I can say, I accept where you're at. And we're going to just keep going because it actually doesn't matter. And so I think my fortitude is just better.

[23:27] Alan Seales: There is so much to unpack in that answer.

[23:30] Isabelle McCalla: I know.

[23:31] Alan Seales: No, it's, thank you for being vulnerable and sharing. And that's why one of the things I just appreciate about you so much is even before we really got to know each other, you were always just out there, like vulnerable.

[23:45] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah. It gets me into trouble sometimes. I was actually reading this in Barbara Streisand's book too, that she's like, I am honest to a fault and that gets me, that gets me into trouble. And I've had to learn the hard way that that, my vulnerability is not often, or it is welcomed and received, but sometimes it's not safe, but you provide a safe space. So I appreciate that.

[24:08] Alan Seales: Well, thank you. Thank you. Well, nobody's listening to this, just you and me right here. Um, let's see. Time for a quick commercial break. Hang on a second.

[24:17] Alan Seales: Welcome back to the episode. So the Water for Elephants, I want to go, while you brought that up, Marlena, your character in Water for Elephants, um, you also mentioned that you are Haitian. And I didn't, one of the things I didn't know about you was French is your first language.

[24:33] Isabelle McCalla: Yes, it is.

[24:33] Alan Seales: I did not know that.

[24:34] Isabelle McCalla: Oui, bien sûr. Yeah.

[24:37] Isabelle McCalla: I can, I can do offensive, outrageous French accents, Monty Python style. You don't want to hear that. No, it's okay. They're doing that in the same James for a weekend more. Oh, great. I miss spam a lot already. Okay, so this, so the story, I was reading something that you were saying the story of Water for Elephants is, is, is personal for you because your family, what generation, some recent generation came to Haiti as part of the circus?

[25:06] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah, so I don't know exactly how far it goes back. But I believe I found this out recently, my uncle Johnny does a lot of genealogy work and ancestral research on our family. And on my father's side, who my father was born in Haiti. And both his father was born in Jamaica, his mother was born in Haiti. But on his, my grandmother's side, my paternal grandmother's side, I believe it was through her grandmother, my grandmother's grandmother. I don't know if it was her or if it was her mother, her mother's family. They immigrated to Haiti with the Danish circus. So the Danish circus came through Haiti and they stayed.

[25:49] Isabelle McCalla: So grandmother's mother would be roughly 100 years ago, right? A little bit more.

[25:56] Isabelle McCalla: A little bit more. Uh huh.

[25:57] Isabelle McCalla: And then so it's grandmother's grandmother, I think.

[25:59] Isabelle McCalla: Pre World War One.

[26:01] Isabelle McCalla: Yes.

[26:02] Isabelle McCalla: Turn of the century. Interesting.

[26:04] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah, I have to get the exact dates. I really should know this if I'm talking about this. But my, yeah, my uncle Johnny just found this out a couple of years ago.

[26:12] Alan Seales: Oh, really? It's a recent thing?

[26:14] Isabelle McCalla: It's a recent find. Yeah, yeah.

[26:16] Alan Seales: Wow. Yeah, my family, my mother's side came through Canada, exiled from Germany, through Canada into America. So sort of the same, like it was a war. That's why I was trying to get the timeline behind it. Because I was like, Oh, is it like a war sort of—

[26:30] Isabelle McCalla: Right? I don't think it was. I think it was pre war.

[26:36] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah.

[26:36] Isabelle McCalla: But you know, there was a lot of, you know, colonization happening in Haiti, even after the revolution. So that's—

[26:46] Alan Seales: Well, thinking about that, then. Okay, so Water for Elephants. It's, it's great. It's a love story on so many levels. And, and also in that amazing answer you gave a little a little minute or two ago, you were saying the need for validation, the need to be validated by specifically the patriarchy, which I know five years ago, too, you're still experimenting and discovering your own fluidity in the sexual spectrum. But interesting, number one, you mentioned, men, and not women, but then also your character in Water for Elephants is a partner to a wife of a pretty abusive emotionally and eventually physically, kind of man. So like, are you able to easily now with the work that you've done and the character development, everything like leave Mylena completely on stage? Or does any of that like, get attached and come home in any way?

[27:40] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, I think I'm able to leave a lot of a lot of it. And I think the reason I can is because she finds the strength to leave her husband, initially. So where I start and where I end, I end triumphantly, luckily in the show. So it kind of absolves me of the trauma. But well, let me tell you, my nervous system during it is not great. It's, and it was a journey, because as I was trying to figure out where she lived and navigate how that abuse and trauma affected her throughout the show, it definitely took its toll, because I do take my work home with me if I haven't figured it out yet. You know, there are parts that I'm still figuring out, but it really I, I wouldn't say I felt confident in my portrayal of Marlena until probably last week previews with the show for so long, but like, there's so many things I wanted to do with her.

And I just, what was so important to me was that yes, she's in an abusive relationship. But she is not a victim, actually. And it's so easy to sink into the wounded bird nature. Yeah, of her. And I don't think that's correct. I think, from my experience with past loved ones, and like, listen, I'm a fixer. I try to, my karmic cycle I'm trying to break is falling for people who are really broken and trying to believing that I could be the cure, which is just so self-centered of me, like, Isabel, get over yourself. But the truth of the matter is, it's 1931. She fell in love with this man when she was 18. And the life that was dealt the cards that were dealt to her by her parents was like, we found you this banker who's 20 years your senior, and you can be his housewife and host all the parties in society.

And that's all and have his babies. And that's it. And, you know, in 1921, she was probably thinking, that can't be what my—after this, like the flu happened, you know, the Spanish flu plague, and like, I can't. Life is too short to be sequestered in a stuffy house, no matter how grand it is, she wanted to be free. And so here was this man who was not sick at the time yet he was gregarious and charming and so sexy, and she was 18 years old. And so of course, she chose love, which not many people did how brave and courageous of her to say, I'm going to choose this other life. And then because she chose it, her parents said, Well, you're dead to us. So you can't come back. So then she leaves finds out he is abusive, because you know, she went off on a whim, she fell in love, and it was passionate, and then found out who he was.

And she tried to go home. And they said, You made your choice. Live with the life you had. So she was yes, in a way she was trapped in this marriage, but also because of the time period where she couldn't make it on her own financially. You know, there's no way really that she could have left in the early 20s, mid 20s. And then the depression hits, how the heck was she going to leave that person? And she had this affinity and love for animals. So what I love about her is that like, she may have made it on her own. But because of her bond with the animals, and specifically the horses, she chose to stay. And she chose to make it work. And I think she saw beautiful parts of her husband August at first, I think there was actually a really beautiful relationship there.

As most are when they start, I think so many, all of us have experienced the honeymoon phase. And even after that long years of deep love and understanding and respect, and then something happens and start, it starts breaking down. And the problem with her husband is that he's sick, it's not that he wants to be angry and violent, it's that he can't control it. And she's a healer, so she thinks she can. And there's no other alternative. And this is really the only form of love that she's been shown because, again, he chose her, in his mind, he owns her, which is messed up. But like, that's all she knows of love until Jacob comes along. So you know, it's complicated, it's more complicated than she's trapped in a marriage.

And then by the time this guy Jacob shows up, who's such a kind and wise soul who also shares this affinity with animals and healing that she does. And she all of a sudden feels like she can be herself and a kid again, like he's the first person that brings her this out in her probably since she was a child, you know, that becomes confusing, because here she has this, this husband who's temperamental, and who could cause severe issues for both. She's also seen her husband beat people up to the point of almost death, where like, she can't let that happen to Jacob. So she has to keep her distance from him. And yet they have to train this animal together every day. So she's falling in love with him, because his gravital orbits pulling her not because she wants to, because it'd be much easier, she didn't have these feelings, and would be much easier if she could just accept the life that she had with her husband, August, but she can't.

[33:07] Isabelle McCalla: Because he's very much, he's very much the ringmaster of the literal circus and life. And I always I always think back at these types of conversations is something I heard Esther Perel say one, you know, like amazing Esther Perel said that most people in their lifetimes will get married three or four times. And statistically, half those people are to the same person and half of them are not. So meaning that you have to choose every decade, every 15 years or so to, to continue to work to remarry, I put in quotes, your existing marriage partner or life partner, whatever it is. And because both of you by that point are not the same person you were a decade ago, 15 years ago. Yeah, because you one thing can one seemingly insignificant thing can change.

And then your whole world gets turned upside down. And in your world, like the horse has to be put down. And then that kind of is the catalyst for tons of things. And like, you know, but even in real life, like, some somebody could lose a family member, someone could lose a job, someone like you just have to move or just something seemingly insignificant happens, you unlock something in therapy that you didn't know was buried inside. And all of a sudden, you're not the person you were literally yesterday.

[34:22] Alan Seales: Right. And the problems arise, and we don't allow our partners to change. And that's like, if you do not allow these events to affect your person and let them grow, then you're just trying to hold them in this container and trap them in the memory of who they were, but they're no longer that person. And and that's what I love about Marlena is that like, she she fights and she fights to stay in this relationship and make it work until the very last second when he abuses her and punt like slaps her across the face. And then she leaves, but she doesn't leave for Jacob. She goes off on her own. She decides to choose her own life. And there's this beautiful moment of the bed I get where I sing a song, what do you do?

And it's a meditation. It's a meditation on what life do you choose and the choice she comes to it's not it's not August versus Jacob. It's marriage versus myself, choosing life, do I choose life again? Until she comes to the decision that she's going to leave and go on her own before Jacob enters the picture. And then Jacob comes in and he says that he loves her and she's like, Oh my god, wait, maybe you can contribute to this too. And then she realizes that he does. And then it's just like, he's the cherry on top. But it's not it was never Jacob versus August. It's not that simplistic. It's everyone else over myself. And she finally chooses to put herself first.

[35:46] Isabelle McCalla: And I feel like a lot of the conflict is is self self fulfilling prophecy that August creates for himself.

[35:53] Alan Seales: 100%! 100%! Yeah.

[35:58] Isabelle McCalla: If August didn't expect it to happen, then then the other characters would not would not be even expecting it to happen in the first place. Because August is like, what about this? What about that? What about and then they're like, Oh, yeah, I guess you just put it in my head. Right? So self fulfilling prophecies are the worst. And I'm also guilty of those. Time for a quick commercial break. Hang on a second. Welcome back to the episode. As a asking for a friend, not someone who also tries to fix others. How did you? How did you work through that in your own life of just being like, you know what, you got your own problems and I got mine? Oh, my God. Because I do that all the time. I am. It's that's that's actually the lesson that I am in the midst of learning currently. Like I it's it's like, oh, it's the one that keeps

[37:25] Isabelle McCalla: That's not how everybody works, and I have realized that I think I expect too much for people to operate in the same manner. And I get frustrated, specifically with friends or intimate partners that can't open up in the same way that I do. And I realized, instead of just getting mad at them for not being able to have the instinct to be as open as I am, maybe I can just ask for what I want instead. And if they can't do that, walk away. And what I'm also realizing too is that, oh God, maybe I'm in these situations where I try to fix people, and it's not working, obviously, because it's not my job. Because everybody's got to go through it themselves. At a certain point, maybe my job was just to illuminate some other broken parts that needed to be fixed, and now I'm a trigger. And now I need to go away. And maybe the most loving thing that I can do for them is to step back.

[38:36] Isabelle McCalla: Whew. Yeah. So, wow. Sorry, this is getting vulnerable, but... No, this is really, really, really... The similarities between what you just said and what I have worked through for years, and I started my therapy journey later in life, and still, it's the exact same thing of just, I want to be good enough. And part of what I can do to get there is to help others, but then they have to want to be helped. They have to want to change. You can't make anybody else change, while at the same time, you have to accept them for who they are in the first place.

[39:14] Alan Seales: Exactly.

[39:15] Isabelle McCalla: And it's this nasty cycle of, am I ever good enough? Yeah. Right. Because in the end, too, it also stems back to letting people do it on their own means that I can't do everything. I don't have the power to do everything. And also, just because they don't choose you doesn't mean that you're not worthy of love. And that's another hard lesson, is in the stepping back and in people saying no to you, it doesn't mean that they're saying no to you. They're saying, we don't actually align right now. This is, I think, maybe this isn't working, and that's okay. And it's like, you can intellectualize that and understand that in a subconscious level, but then to put that into practice and to be at peace with the discomfort of that is a whole other pilgrimage. And so, that's the pilgrimage I'm currently on, where I have days where I'm like, this is great. It's freedom. It's wonderful. And then I'm like, I will never find love or companionship ever again. So that's that.

[40:31] Isabelle McCalla: But it's all about the right place at the right time as well. And just as it is about work, you could be talented, you could have all the right moves, you could have all the right skills, and you'd have to be at the right place at the right time in front of the right person to fit the puzzle that you didn't know you had to fit. And talking about personal relationships, friendships, romantic or otherwise, it's always about what phase you're in. And literally what we just said, talking about Esther Perel and the multiple versions of yourself that you live your whole life, version, Izzy version now 2024 is not Izzy version 2019. And you're going to find different relationships, different romantic, professional shows, everything. And me too. I mean, like, oh, God, I love to talk about all this stuff. It makes me so warm and fuzzy. Wow. At the same time, it can be really sad and unhappy.

[41:24] Alan Seales: But how beautiful that like, that all can coexist. You know what I mean? That full feeling.

[41:30] Isabelle McCalla: I know it is it is very full. And it's it's vulnerable. And I love what you said about you expect everyone to operate at the same level of vulnerability. That's been really hard.

[41:39] Alan Seales: Yeah, it's really hard for me my whole life. I'm in my early 40s now. And until recently, about five or six years ago, I was like, why is not everyone just like wearing their heart on the sleeve? I don't get it. I just don't get it. How can we get his talk and say what we mean? And I don't know how to do that. Bullshitty, small talk. I mean, not not bullshitty. But like, if I say something, if I don't like something, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say it in a nice way. If I'd like something, I'm gonna tell you and then like, I want you to trust my word. I want to be a person like, you can you can feel safe around and feel like you're getting a real response because there's something so like, unsettling about energetically, like I feel in a room where you're like, you're you're operating with somebody who just, it's like, they won't meet your eyes. There's like this whole false, there's just like a, it's like a film over the situation.

[42:22] Isabelle McCalla: Oh, you know, and it's like red pill, blue pill thing. I'm like, look, just take the frickin red pill, whatever the one that brings you to reality, you know? I don't know. But like, I just don't I don't I'm not, I'm not interested in that. And that's but, and that's okay. If other people aren't interested in that, like, that I can be a lot I can my vote, my questions can really land somebody I'm like, I'm like, I've said somebody down. I'm like, who hurt you when you were 14 years old? You know what I mean? Like, that's too much for some people. They're like, you buy me dinner first, you know, and I need to recognize that I'm that's what I'm working on. Recognizing that.

[43:12] Alan Seales: No, I love that. I love that. And I mean, that's something that I've leaned into as part of this podcast, too, because we have like an hour or less usually in these interviews, right? And I'm like, All right, well, some of you a lot of my guests I've never met before. So let me know 14 years old. Yeah, right. And you can choose to and I think what it is, too, is like people can be like, Oh, I actually know I'm not comfortable talking about that. But just tell me you're not comfortable talking about it. Yeah, that's it. I just need clear communication. If you're like, Oh, I don't want to go in there. I'm like, Oh, okay, cool. Then I'll pivot. But you know, what's really cool is that somebody you can you can kind of tell when someone is like on the fence.

They're like, Should I want it? Do I want to go there? Do I not? And then they go there and then immediately like, the stress ball just their shoulders lower. They settle into the fact that now they can finally talk about it. And it feels good. And it's okay.

[44:03] Isabelle McCalla: Yeah. I just want people's shoulders to be lower. That's all. So go see Watergirl.

[44:08] Alan Seales: Yeah, your shoulders will be very tense, actually, for a while. They will drop their moments. They're really beautiful moments where they drop. I promise.

[44:17] Isabelle McCalla: Some of my favorite songs, if I must say my favorite songs in the show are yours. I just love you. I love your voice. I love everything that you do. Okay, I could talk to you forever. I want to now switch over to a segment that you've never played before with me called plot in 60 seconds.

[44:31] Isabelle McCalla: Oh, God. Okay.

[44:35] Alan Seales: So I'm gonna put up on the clock. Got it. So give me a number one through 13. And I've got 13 shows listed. You're gonna pick one. They're all popular. So you should know the plot. And in 60 seconds, you have to give me the plot.

[44:50] Isabelle McCalla: Oh, God, I'm so nervous. Seven.

[44:58] Alan Seales: Seven. That is Avenue Q 60 seconds.

[45:05] Isabelle McCalla: Oh my God. Um, so Avenue Q is show about these people who live on Avenue Q, we live on Avenue Q. And there are some humans. And there are some puppets. And it's very raunchy. And there's some one they're shot in Florida abounds. There's a there's a thing about how everybody's racist. Gary Coleman comes out at one point, played by a woman. And then and then and Harada is there, whose name is Christmas, right? And, and they're just making people laugh on Avenue Q. And they're all trying to figure out what life is about. And there's also two roommates that resemble Burton Ernie. And one is definitely gay, but he has a girlfriend in Canada that he keeps talking about. And we're like, Sure, your girlfriend in Canada. And there is a love story between puppets that they do they do fornicate on stage for you. And I don't actually story wraps up, except that it's very funny. And maybe heartwarming. Three.

[45:59] Alan Seales: One more more or less. I think you sold it. You sold it.

[46:03] Isabelle McCalla: I was so nervous. I'm the worst musical theater fan. I actually don't know many shows. Scary, funny. It's so funny where people's minds go. You were describing you were describing you gave character names and actors. Most other people have have they'll spend the majority of time describing the set. I'm like, where's the plot point? I did. I did. What did I have? I had Hamilton. Joy Woods did Hamilton. And she she didn't mention America or founding fathers once. She was like, Aaron, Aaron Burr. Aaron Burr. That's all I ever did.

[46:39] Alan Seales: That's all I ever did. Yeah. Oh my god. That's stressful. That's fun. I like that game.

[46:44] Alan Seales: All right. So now the three standard closing questions and I wrote down your answers from episode 38. So we're going to see how they've changed. Okay. All right. See if anything's the same. So now 2014 2024. What year are we in? 2024. What motivates you?

[47:02] Isabelle McCalla: Oh, what motivates me? Joy. Joy would find following. Yeah, Joy Woods. She totally motivates me. She's great. I freaking love her. But no, what motivates me is chasing joy is is finding experiences that fill me with unbelievable gratitude and wonder. I love it.

[47:22] Alan Seales: Your answer in 2019 was my thirst for knowledge. Keep learning about things I don't know. Yeah. So there you go. All right. Yeah. What advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now in 2014 starting out down a similar path? 2024. I can't remember what damn year it is. 2024. Um, when in doubt, go sit under a tree. Listen. Oh, you said in 2019 don't compare yourself to others focus on staying in your lane and what makes you you? Yeah. All right. And I suspect I suspect this last question is actually going to be the same because you've already mentioned it once. If you can only see one show for the rest of your life, but you can see it as many times as you want. What would you see?

[47:57] Isabelle McCalla: Did I say the drowsy chaperone? No. Oh, I already said it. I already said it. Why did I already say? Oh my god. Oh, the office. Yes. There we go. American office. Okay. The American office. Yes. Oh my god. I you meant TV show. I thought we were talking musicals. I was like, well, anything that was you and you and Caitlin were the first ever in the 38 episodes to date then to not choose a musical theater show. Ah, got it. Yeah. The office for sure. Yeah. Yeah, there you go.

[48:25] Alan Seales: All right. So where can we still connect with you on social media?

[48:30] Isabelle McCalla: You can follow me on Instagram at Izzy McCalla. I technically have a tick tock, but I don't post anything there. I just look and scroll. That's all I do. Yeah. Okay. Um, I am on threads, Instagram, tick tock. I look and scroll on a lot of them. I post on some of them on my Facebook for my parents. Get a review wherever you're listening. Now spread the word. Tell everyone. Yo, I just listened to Izzy McCalla. She's awesome. She's got lots of good advice. That's how this podcast grows. Thanks to jukebox the ghost for the intro and outro music and Izzy, my God, you're the best. Thank you so, so much.

[49:03] Isabelle McCalla: Thanks for having me. And thanks for having me be your first three peaks. Yeah, man. Yeah, baby.