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[0:00] Alan Seales: Welcome to The Theatre Podcast, intimate personal conversations with theatre's biggest names.

[0:10] Alan Seales: I'm your host, Alan Seales, and this podcast, of course, is part of the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:15] Alan Seales: This episode is with none other than Karen Olivo, who is treating us to a spectacular performance eight times a week as Satine in Moulin Rouge the Musical.

[0:26] Alan Seales: This episode just blew my mind.

[0:30] Alan Seales: My conversation with her got very honest. Off mic at the beginning, before I start recording, I always tell my guests, I say, let it go as dark as you want, or as light as you want, or just be real, be honest. And there were a couple of times where, before she gave me an answer, you hear her ask me, like, do you want the real answer? Do you want the honest answer? And I say, of course, yes. And we got into some really interesting conversations.

[0:54] Alan Seales: Something that sort of struck a chord with me was a discussion about race that we have, and her being a person of color in an interracial relationship on stage, and also an interracial relationship in real life. It's just something that I'm really excited to share with you.

[1:13] Alan Seales: Some people are bi-coastal. She is actually wiscoastal. Wisconsin coastal? We'll go with wiscoastal. She splits her time between Wisconsin and New York. This came out of her sort of leaving New York many years ago. She basically just, she didn't really retire, but she gave up the New York life and went out to Wisconsin to, as she puts it, have a normal life with a backyard and a driveway. And her husband is there, her kids are there, they still live there. She sees her husband every couple of weeks when he comes out to see her in the show or when he has time out here with his job.

[1:52] Alan Seales: And in the news, she sort of has been talked about as retiring and going on sabbatical or going on a hiatus or whatnot, but she really didn't stop working when she moved to Wisconsin. She just started working in a different area. So we talk about that. It's a really, really great chat. She says this several times in the interview, but she had some trauma that she worked through as a child and basically realized that she had to leave New York to work on herself, to work on her own mental health and work on how she could be a better actress and be more in touch with who she is as a person. So Karen, thank you for your honesty. Thank you for the conversation. It was very, very good.

[2:29] Alan Seales: And as always, before we get into it, please visit me online at theatre underscore podcast on Instagram and Twitter, facebook.com slash official theatre podcast. You can show your support for the podcast. Help us do the transcriptions. Keep that going at thetheatrepodcast.com slash Patreon, P-A-T-R-E-O-N. Everybody please enjoy this episode with Karen Olivo.

[2:59] Alan Seales: Today's Tony Award winning guest made her Broadway debut in Rent before going on to roles in Brooklyn, the Musical, In the Heights and West Side Story, which is where she won her Tony. Now amazing audiences, critics and everyone in between eight times a week as Satine in Moulin Rouge! The Musical. Karen Olivo, welcome to The Theatre Podcast.

[3:18] Karen Olivo: What's up? How are you doing?

[3:20] Alan Seales: I'm doing really well. You were filming something for GMA Good Morning America this morning.

[3:26] Karen Olivo: Yeah.

[3:27] Alan Seales: Is this kind of like a normal, a normal day for you?

[3:31] Karen Olivo: What day is it?

[3:32] Alan Seales: Today is Friday. So you've got one show tonight and then one press thing this morning where you're filming, you do a podcast in the afternoon and then you do a show at night. Is this the normal routine now?

[3:42] Karen Olivo: Yeah, this is what it's going to be. You know, this is the push before, you know, the Tony season. So all of the press and everything that you would normally do gets packed into every waking moment that you're not at the theater. So yeah, this is just a regular day.

[3:59] Alan Seales: It seems like so many people don't realize how much work goes into, so many theater fans don't realize how much work goes into being on stage eight times a week when you're not on stage.

[4:10] Karen Olivo: Right. Because there's the job, right, of being on Broadway. But then the job is also press and marketing and appearances and singing and singing outside of the show.

[4:22] Karen Olivo: Oh, yeah. And now add in social media. So like even your private moments have to become a little bit of your public persona. Do you do you enjoy that?

[4:30] Karen Olivo: No, sir. No, no, no, no, no. I mean, possibly because I'm an older individual that was I grew up in the 80s. So like, I remember like playing outside with sticks and dirt. And that was my form of entertainment. So social media is something that is very different and new to me, and not something that I like to use as a career tool.

[4:53] Alan Seales: So let's back up and we're going to get into the social media stuff, because I want to touch on the whole like private life hiatus bit of your career, which is a big part of who you are now.

[5:04] Karen Olivo: Yeah.

[5:05] Alan Seales: But before we get there, obviously, let's go through the beginning and tell me where you grew up.

[5:09] Karen Olivo: I was born in the South Bronx. I was raised here till I was about seven or eight years old. And then I went to Central Florida. So around, I would say about an hour south of the Disney World area, a place called Winter Haven.

[5:25] Alan Seales: And were you performing down there at any time?

[5:28] Karen Olivo: Yeah. I was a director and a visual artist. And my mother did all of the things inside the theater, anything from stage managing to props to costumes. So I was always going to be in the theater in some capacity.

[5:45] Alan Seales: When did you get involved? I mean, what were you, I guess, what were you doing at first? Were you just hanging around with mom and dad? Or how did that start?

[5:53] Karen Olivo: It started actually before I even left New York. My dad had started a theater group in our church basement. And so I was about six, maybe. And they just, you know, it was easier to have me on stage than to get a babysitter. So they just started putting me on stage pretty young.

[6:13] Alan Seales: How young?

[6:14] Karen Olivo: I was about six.

[6:15] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[6:16] Karen Olivo: Yeah. I was like, I think I played like a clown in one of the church skits. And then they started doing shows and I was just on the stage. So I don't really remember a time in which I wasn't on a stage.

[6:31] Alan Seales: And is that what you wanted to do? Like, did you know early on that you're like, this is where I'm comfortable and this is what I want to do? I mean, I guess that's assuming that you're still comfortable on stage now.

[6:40] Karen Olivo: Right, right. No, you are correct. I am comfortable on stage. I was probably eight years old. That was like the first time I ever did a monologue and that was in community theater when we'd moved down to Florida. I had like a monologue and it was like the first time that I looked out into the audience and all of these adults were hanging on my every word and I was like, yo, this is power. I like it here. And then I always also am amazed at how a young person could hold adults' attention. And I dug it and that was it.

[7:16] Alan Seales: I'm struggling. I'm not struggling. I'm digging in my mind and see if there's a deeper meaning here. You're finding that you have power with this audience of adults. So does that mean in real life that you were searching for power, maybe like with your parents?

[7:34] Karen Olivo: Yeah. I have a very, a bit of a checkered childhood, not the regular sort of childhood. So I'm a kid of conflict and some trauma. So I was always looking for balance anywhere else. And theater, for a lot of, you've talked to many actors, traumatic experiences and anything from physical abuse to mental abuse to issues like that are, you find a safe haven in theater. Even kids who are bullied or anything like that, when you get on stage, there's a protection. It's scripted. You're allowed to be anything. You're usually with people who welcome anyone from any walk of life. So it became a very obvious choice for me and it didn't hurt that I was actually already in theater from a very young age. So yes.

[8:35] Karen Olivo: Yeah. I can completely relate to that. As someone who was bullied at a young age, that was my safe haven. And I got to be a character, a person that was safe. I was supposed to be this person. When I didn't know who I was, I could for sure be someone else and be safe as someone else just for a few hours a night or during rehearsal, the months of community theater rehearsal. Even the act of putting on a costume is something that is very comforting. You look in the mirror, you don't even see yourself anymore. You see something else. So for kids who are struggling, it becomes obvious. That's a good place to hide.

[9:17] Alan Seales: Right. So eight years old then, you found your place and you're still in Florida. And do you start taking voice lessons? You start dancing? What's next?

[9:28] Karen Olivo: No, I was amateur. I was just doing musical theater in community theater. And then I decided around high school that I wanted to go to performing arts high school. And I tried it for a year. It was really hard. And I was like, maybe I don't want to do this. And then I spent one semester in regular high school, and I immediately jetted right back to performing arts high school. But I still had not taken professional singing classes.

[9:58] Alan Seales: Really?

[9:59] Karen Olivo: No, I was still in a very amateur world. I didn't start taking professional voice until I was in college at Cincinnati Conservatory of Music.

[10:08] Alan Seales: Wow. Oh, so you went to CCM?

[10:10] Karen Olivo: Yeah.

[10:11] Alan Seales: And graduated from CCM?

[10:12] Karen Olivo: No.

[10:13] Alan Seales: No, you didn't?

[10:14] Karen Olivo: Still have not graduated, even though I am listed as an alum.

[10:16] Alan Seales: Yeah. They tend to do that. You know? Why wouldn't you?

[10:19] Karen Olivo: Hi.

[10:21] Alan Seales: Yeah. What happened? Why not graduate?

[10:24] Karen Olivo: I was a junior, I think, when Rent had just come out.

[10:29] Alan Seales: Yes.

[10:30] Karen Olivo: And I think on a break, I came up with a friend of mine, and we slept outside and we saw it. And so I went to my first open call, and I ended up getting it. And I talked to my professors at school, and I was like, yeah, next year is supposed to be my senior year, but if I get Rent on Broadway, I'm leaving. And they were like, yep, you should. And that was it. And that was my first Broadway show.

[11:06] Alan Seales: And that's changed. I mean, Rent itself changed the face of theater.

[11:13] Karen Olivo: Absolutely. I mean, it was the first time that I had seen someone, a contemporary version of myself, Daphne Rubin Vega. And I was like, oh, there I am. I see myself. And I'm not in period costume, and I'm not a slave, and I'm not, you know, I'm not, they're, you know, it was eye-opening to someone who wanted to have a life in the theater.

[11:34] Alan Seales: Well, yeah, it's representative. And I mean, that was kind of the turning point. And it's still, like, diversity in theater is still not where it should be.

[11:41] Karen Olivo: Absolutely not.

[11:42] Alan Seales: But you are Puerto Rican, Dominican, and Chinese descent.

[11:45] Karen Olivo: That is true.

[11:46] Alan Seales: Right? Okay. So do you identify with one more than the other?

[11:50] Karen Olivo: You know, it's hard. I would say Puerto Rican, Dominican, the Spanish portion is more prevalent. I was raised in a household that spoke Spanish. The Chinese part of me is on my mother's side, and I didn't have a whole lot of interaction with that part of her family. So I would say I probably identify more with the Dominican and Puerto Rican side.

[12:17] Alan Seales: I read a stat that Latinos comprise less than 3% of active members in the union for stage performers.

[12:22] Karen Olivo: You got that right.

[12:25] Alan Seales: And I guess growing up, when you started to get into theater, were you dissuaded by that, by not seeing yourself represented?

[12:34] Karen Olivo: Yes, and because I was very arrogant and a little bit of a, I had survivor mentality, I sort of vowed to be the one who would actually do it.

[12:47] Alan Seales: And you did.

[12:48] Karen Olivo: Yeah, there were not many of me. It was, honestly, it was like Priscilla Lopez and Daphne. Like, those are like the two people that I could pick out. And, strangely enough, when I got into In the Heights, one of the people that I loved and idolized for so many years, Andrea Burns, who now is a dear friend, had no idea that she was Hispanic. So I would listen to her all the time on Songs for a New World, trying to sing like her. And I was like, wow, that voice, never knowing that that was actually someone that I should be looking at to sort of emulate and build a career off of.

[13:23] Alan Seales: Wow. So how long were you in Rent then? So you came into Rent in '97. How long were you in?

[13:27] Karen Olivo: I was there until about 2001.

[13:30] Alan Seales: 2001. And then Brooklyn, the Musical came in 2004. And you originated the role of Faith. Right? So between 2001 and 2004, just the normal grind, the normal struggle?

[13:42] Karen Olivo: Yeah, I left the show because I knew that if it was going to run forever, and I could stay as a swing and not really grow. And I wanted to start creating roles. So I quit the show without a job, and waited tables, did everything from sample sales to... I was going to temp and then I was like, oh, I'm actually the worst typist ever. So no, that's not gonna happen for me. I worked in lots of bars and restaurants, and did odd jobs before Brooklyn came along.

[14:19] Alan Seales: Was it hard for you to do the nightlife and get up early for the open calls and for the auditions? That was always sort of what I saw a lot of my friends fall into that trap of having a survival job that then became literally for survival, that doesn't allow them any flexibility or energy to go do what they really want to do.

[14:38] Karen Olivo: Absolutely. You're correct. Yeah, it was very difficult to do that. I mean, truthfully, I spent more time working just to make a living than actually going out and doing anything else. I made sure that I was always working the brunch shift, because that meant that I could still make a wage and not have to worry about a late night. I mean, no one wants a brunch shift. Brunch is the worst. Brunch is the absolute worst. Right? I mean, in the waiting world, we all know this. But yeah, you're correct.

[15:14] Alan Seales: So Brooklyn the Musical and then In the Heights came in 2009. It opened. And West Side Story, the revival, was also in 2009.

[15:21] Karen Olivo: Yeah. So were you working on both at the same time?

[15:26] Alan Seales: No. We had just opened In the Heights and won the Tony. And then we had that summer of sort of like basking in the glow of that. And then West Side Story was about to happen in the fall, and they had not found an Anita. And I had been called in to audition, and I kept saying, I'm not an idiot. No, I'm not going to do that to myself. I'm not touching that one. And then finally, it came down to, I think they were a week out of rehearsals. They were about to start the rehearsals in a week, and they still didn't have an Anita. And they did their final callback, and they asked me, you're one of two people we haven't seen in the city. And so I went in, and then I ended up getting it four days later.

[16:07] Karen Olivo: And winning a Tony for it.

[16:09] Alan Seales: Winning a Tony for it later, yeah. How did things change at that point?

[16:12] Karen Olivo: What part?

[16:13] Alan Seales: After winning the Tony.

[16:14] Karen Olivo: After winning the Tony, you know, you want the honest version?

[16:20] Alan Seales: Absolutely.

[16:21] Karen Olivo: Okay, everything got more complicated. Because when you are given an award like that, you are put on everyone's radar, and you immediately become something that people try to monetize. You're the next hottest thing. Outside of Sara Ramirez, I was one of the more contemporary Latinas to win an award. Then people were like, what can we do with her? And so I was pushed and pulled in lots of different directions, and not really having a good foundation of the kind of work that I wanted to do became a detriment. And so I spent the next two years sort of fighting with myself, doing jobs that I didn't want to do, or turning down things that I did want to do, but people thought were beneath me, or you've won a Tony, you can't do that. Those kinds of things start to come into play. And then obviously, the next biggest thing when you win a Tony is to go on to TV and film because that's where all the money is.

[17:26] Karen Olivo: So yeah, just complicated. Everyone thinks that you winning the Tony is like you finally made it. I just basically ended up climbing to the top of one ladder and seeing that there were like 50 other ladders ahead of me, and I was at the bottom rung.

[17:44] Alan Seales: What did Andre De Shields say in his Tony acceptance speech last year? He said, the top of one mountain is the bottom of the next.

[17:50] Karen Olivo: Yeah, yeah, yeah, brother. That's the truth, man. It is so the truth.

[17:54] Alan Seales: So did you get into TV and film at that point?

[17:57] Karen Olivo: I did. I did the thing that everyone told me to do, that the teams told me to do. I got an NBC show, went out to LA, shot it, loved the people I was working with. I got to work with Kathy Bates, who's my favorite human and actress. That was incredible. And then that ended, and then I was stuck out in LA, which for me was a bit of a wasteland in the world of art. I found myself in rooms saying words that made my heart hurt, just like, that's bad writing. And I started to really rethink my steps of going out to LA. And then that sort of butts up against me taking a break, hitting the pause button.

[18:44] Alan Seales: Right. So this is probably, what, 2010, 2011?

[18:49] Karen Olivo: Yes, it was around that.

[18:50] Alan Seales: And you moved to Wisconsin, of all places.

[18:53] Karen Olivo: Yeah, I mean, a handful of personal things happened. The TV show had ended. I started doing work that I really didn't like. Then my relationship, my marriage ended at the same time. And I was really starving for an artistic outlook that I could not find in LA. I came back to New York to do a show that kind of broke open the wound of the divorce happening. And I realized that there was a lot of stuff that I needed to fix within Karen before I could keep turning into characters, believably. So knowing that I knew what New York was, I'd done that. I knew what LA was, wasn't going to do that. I'd been dating someone who lived in Madison, Wisconsin. And I'd been bi-coastal for a little bit because after my TV show had ended, I would come back to New York and go back from, and I would always stop in Madison, Wisconsin.

And I found everyone there to be not only incredibly well-read and liberal-minded and artistically inclined, and I fell in love with him and his family. And I was like, well, this is a very simple decision. I'm not going back to New York. I'm not staying in LA. Madison is incredible. I'm going to go there and I'm going to figure out the things that I need to figure out before I keep taking on jobs.

[20:16] Alan Seales: Well, I'm going to come back to that. I just want to interject real quick. It's funny that you say that because I took a test years ago, one of these fun internet tests. It was, what's your perfect city? And I put in all the things that are important to me like nightlife and being around water and having four distinct seasons and having an artistic scene and et cetera, et cetera. And my number one was Sheboygan, Wisconsin.

[20:37] Karen Olivo: Well, I'm not going to... Sheboygan's not bad.

[20:41] Alan Seales: But I'm just saying, Wisconsinites.

[20:43] Karen Olivo: Yeah. I mean, it's really great. We're really close to Chicago. Milwaukee's got a lot of art that's really great right there on the water. I mean, there's, you know.

[20:54] Alan Seales: Right. Okay. So in Wisconsin then, so you work on Karen and you're making a conscious choice to step away from the limelight, step away from the grind. And so what do you find, what's happening? What are you finding yourself doing in Wisconsin?

[21:11] Karen Olivo: I was having a lot of regular conversations about, you know, raising children, gardening. Normal stuff.

[21:22] Alan Seales: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[21:23] Karen Olivo: Because you have a backyard and a driveway.

[21:25] Alan Seales: Right. Politics. You know, the family that I married into is really political and incredibly civic minded and they're, you know, they're incredible humans. So I spent my time being a regular person, not talking about business, and sort of filling up the tanks of Karen that were depleted. And the most important thing, quite frankly, was being a mom. You know, I became the mother to two really great kids. And that sort of shaped a lot of me.

[22:07] Alan Seales: Did you have a moment when you just kind of realized, you know, you're marrying into somebody who already has kids, right? And you just have a moment where you're like, I am their mother figure now, I have to change or I'm a different person? Or was it just kind of, like, was it sort of a switch?

[22:26] Karen Olivo: Well, it started as, I will always be the understudy. Right? Because I'm not the biological. So and their mother is still in their life. Their biological mother is still in their life. But, you know, pretty early on, I realized, well, if I keep calling them my stepchildren, they'll always feel that. So I just called them my kids. And when you see them, they're blonde and blue eyed. Everyone was like, hmm, not your kid. And I'm like, you know, shut up. That's my kid. As they got older, as they were, you know, out of grade school and they were like having to make life choices and they were watching me and sort of trying to make choices based on the way that I live my life. I just, I don't know, I felt maybe organic.

Luckily, I already started working on myself and how I react to people in relationships. And so things organically just started to get better. I was putting my best foot forward already. And so when they would watch me, they would see someone trying to do the right thing for the right reasons.

[23:33] Alan Seales: Yeah. I'm about a year and a half into therapy now for myself. And, you know, 39, it's completely transformed me. And I've got a three and a half and a five-year-old. So I did the first couple of years with no therapy, first couple of years of having kids with no therapy. And I just don't understand how anyone can be at the level that you are in this business now without doing all that self-work, that inward-looking work, because it requires so much vulnerability and so much understanding of just raw emotion and reaction.

[24:16] Karen Olivo: Because the most of acting is listening. So you've got to react authentically. And if you're understanding yourself, you understand more about reactions and other people and blah, blah, blah, you know. But, you know.

[24:27] Alan Seales: You're talking about acting from a holistic approach.

[24:30] Karen Olivo: Yeah.

[24:31] Alan Seales: See, there's so many actors that do it as a cover and as a cloak. And what I was doing prior to me really sitting down and examining myself was, you know, as a child of conflict, you play any role you need to, so you stay safe. And I did that really well. I honed a skill that was undeniable. And so I made a career off of doing the thing that kept me safe as a child. And when you become an adult and you realize, I don't need this anymore because I'm not in danger, and you still want to be an actor, you have to figure out how to act.

[25:08] Karen Olivo: I actually be an actor based on the person that you want to be, not the person that you were trying not to be. Yeah. So now I think the therapy and the space actually made me, now I'm a solid actor. Yeah. Before I was just, I was rolling the dice nightly. Wow. Yeah, I never looked at it kind of with that angle before because I've seen lots of, I mean, performed with lots of people who you can tell that there's just something that's not quite authentic because they're not completely present because they're using it as a cover. And yeah. Careers have been made on that.

[25:47] Alan Seales: Oh, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like you said, you've worked with those people. So, and I'm as a patron, I mean, I'm an avid theatre goer. I can pick them out. I'm like, oh, you're here, you're not. And I was like, I'm never going to be the person who's not there. Not now. No. So you got to figure it out. You got to do that work.

[26:07] Karen Olivo: Well, yeah. Well, then, okay. So we're here to talk about Moulin Rouge! The Musical, obviously. Yeah, that little thing. So at what point, it's 2019, the show opens on Broadway. When did you get involved? When, like, did someone just call you up and you're like riding your bike through a park in Madison?

[26:20] Karen Olivo: No, I actually started doing Hamilton in Chicago. Yeah, because it was right there in my backyard and my buddies wrote it. And I was like, hey, I'll just go do this for some quick money. And like, this is an awesome show. I loved it. So I did that for like 11 months, almost a year. And then while I was doing that, people were like, oh, Karen's still acting. Meanwhile, I'd been back to the city to do a number of projects. Like I did a show. I did a show with the public in the park. I'd done Tick, Tick Boom with Lynn and Leslie. Like I'd been in New York, but it was Hamilton that sort of put me back on the radar of people. And then they were just like, hey, come in, audition for Satine. And I was like, this is Karen Olivo. You have the wrong number. They're like, no, no, no, we're looking for a completely different take on Satine. And I was like, all right. And then so I went in and that was it.

[27:19] Alan Seales: Well, so when, okay, first off, when you heard that they were making Moulin Rouge! into a musical.

[27:23] Karen Olivo: About time. That's what I thought. It's about damn time. Yeah. Okay. That's good. That's the second person I always had that, which is great. I agree. And then what year was this? I'm sorry. Did you say?

[27:34] Karen Olivo: Let's see. I was still in Hamilton when I did it. So let's see. That would be, I'm really bad with numbers in general, but years and how they relate to my life are all a blur. I want to say 2018. Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, so yeah, it opened in fall.

[27:56] Karen Olivo: No, no. 2017. That wouldn't make more sense. 2017. Two years of development. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I think that's right. Yes.

[28:05] Alan Seales: So I've been doing it for two years. Have I been doing, what does it say there on your laptop? It opened, the show opened, hold on, hold on. Let's see. Moulin Rouge Broadway opening date.

[28:20] Karen Olivo: I'm dead. No, not the opening date. Was June 28th. Right. So we've been-

[28:24] Alan Seales: I'm sorry, July 25th. Previews were June 28th.

[28:27] Karen Olivo: Yeah. It's been two years that I've been working on it. So off Broadway, I'm going to off Broadway, we did like a little lab. We did a lab downtown, like two, three weeks since downtown. And then we went to Boston. So yeah. And how much of Satine came from you versus Alex Timbers versus whoever? I mean, because they're saying they're looking for a completely different take. So obviously, but one of the things I love about the show is that race is never even brought up because Moulin Rouge just accepts all walks of life, right? Whatever the line is that everyone's welcome at the Moulin Rouge. And I love that the best courtesan is a person of color.

[29:12] Karen Olivo: Yeah. Like the most sought after one. Yeah. But so the casting choice, obviously a little bit out of your control, but then how much of Karen came into Satine that we see on stage?

[29:23] Karen Olivo: A lot, I think, because I am, as I've already told you, I spent most of my formative years whatever anyone needed to keep me safe. And I think Satine is actually that. I mean, you saw the show. She's the kid who got kicked around and could have ended up in a ditch somewhere. So she used whatever she had to carve out a life. And being a sex worker at a young age, she decided to use the thing that was given to her, her body. She wields it sort of like a sword, the sexuality. And I think that all of that stuff is something that just comes from Karen's upbringing, sadly. Sadly and happily? Because I think that's what people see. Like the depth is an honest depth. You're not seeing a Satine that's trying to be melodramatic and deep. She's just like, no, she's really complex because I'm complex.

[30:32] Alan Seales: Yeah. Well, I love in the show how, I mean, the three leads between the Duke and Christian and Satine in the movie, and I said this when I was talking with Tam Mutu the other day, that the way he does the Duke, it's real. It's not this comic caricature. So there was one point where, I know the outcome of the show because I've seen the movie, obviously, but he could really, Satine could really choose the Duke here because this is a tough choice. He's a real person now.

[31:03] Karen Olivo: Yeah. Well, I mean, we push you to believe that in a lot of ways during the show. Because you know, they talk about where she comes from having nothing, only even having a roof over her head because she's decided that she's going to perform and the Moulin Rouge houses her. So when she's offered something that means stability, she's probably gonna really think about it. And then you put it in a Tam Mutu packaging, and then it becomes really, really a viable option.

[31:40] Alan Seales: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so Satine is choosing between love and stability, which I feel like is there, I feel like there's a little bit of a parallel to your life as well, because your stability is Wisconsin and your love is New York. And so now you're kind of bouncing back between two worlds.

[32:03] Karen Olivo: I am trying to find the balance. So what are you going to, I mean, are you going to continue to go back? Like, do you still have a life in Wisconsin?

[32:11] Karen Olivo: Yeah. I have a full life in Wisconsin, kids in school and...

[32:18] Alan Seales: Oh, they're still there.

[32:19] Karen Olivo: Oh, yeah. Your husband's still there?

[32:20] Karen Olivo: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. He flies up here every three weeks or so. Luckily, he works for ETC, Electronic Theatre Controls, who they do lighting instruments and consoles and rigging. And they have a headquarters like a couple blocks from here. So he can come here and work from here. And as we co-parent with their biological mother, so when they go to their mother's house for a week, he comes here. Yeah, we've somehow managed to make it work.

[32:52] Alan Seales: That's great. I mean, I think it's important for kids to have a positive mother figure in general, but biological mother, of course, if it makes sense to have her in it, it's great that you're not threatened by that, or you can co-parent easily.

[33:04] Karen Olivo: Their biological mother is great. I mean, it's really strange. I see so many unorthodox family dynamics nowadays, where there are three and four people parenting children. And what I find is the three of us, Amanda is their biological mother's name, and Jim, my husband, and I, we are all so very different. And we offer these kids things that the other could not. And we know that, and we balance that, and we do feel confident enough to go to each other and say, hey, this one's yours. This is your expertise. You handle this. Wow.

[33:52] Alan Seales: So three people raising two kids, and we're really lucky, and it works out.

[33:56] Karen Olivo: Oh, yeah. I mean, it takes a village. I've said that before, that old cliché saying, but it really does. You just let the kids run around, and the village raises them. Not New York, but.

[34:03] Alan Seales: Hopefully not.

[34:03] Karen Olivo: God. Have your kids come to see the show? Have you?

[34:06] Karen Olivo: Yeah, my kids see everything I do.

[34:08] Alan Seales: So what do they say when they're like, that's mom on stage? Do they realize the gravitas of what you do?

[34:13] Karen Olivo: My daughter does, because she's a very skilled little theater performer herself. My son is just like, yeah, that's Karen. He's like, whatever. That's her job. They're really regular kids. My daughter is probably a little bit more on the end of, wow, that's really great, because she's looking to do this, and she probably will. She's really talented. So she probably has a little bit more of a star in her eye than my son.

[34:45] Alan Seales: I mean, we're at the tail end of BroadwayCon, which was last weekend, and just seeing everyone come out of the woodwork from all over the country, and to meet a Tony-winning person on Broadway is like, that's the best thing that could ever happen to them in their lives. And you've got a son who's like, yeah, okay, that's just Karen.

[35:05] Karen Olivo: I mean, I think he's proud. I know, I know. But I think he's just kind of like, he's like, yeah, my dad works for UTC. You know what I mean? It becomes your norm.

[35:13] Alan Seales: Yeah, and we don't, you know, it's not like, I don't wake up and wave my Tony Award in their face, you know? We're just regular people.

[35:22] Karen Olivo: Well, yeah, everybody's regular people at the end of the day. We're really regular at our house. They're like, real.

[35:28] Alan Seales: Yeah, well, some people just can't go to Starbucks, and some can, you know? That's why they need assistance. Back to the Moulin Rouge.

[35:35] Karen Olivo: Please.

[35:37] Alan Seales: Nicole Kidman. Has she come to see the show yet?

[35:40] Karen Olivo: She has.

[35:40] Alan Seales: She did? Did you talk to her?

[35:41] Karen Olivo: I did. She was lovely and ethereal.

[35:45] Alan Seales: Oh, really?

[35:46] Karen Olivo: Yeah, she got close to me, and I was like, oh, wow, that's what beautiful people look like. I can't believe, my eyes hurt right now. She is glowing and sort of floating.

[35:55] Alan Seales: So she was haunting.

[35:57] Karen Olivo: No, she was statuesque and just regal looking. The one thing that she said to me, the very first thing was, obviously, that was wonderful, but then she said, how do you do the coughing? She was really concerned about the coughing.

[36:10] Karen Olivo: And I was like, I cough. She's like, but that's so bad for your voice. And I was like, yeah, it's really bad for my voice. So I try to be really good with my voice at all other times.

[36:23] Alan Seales: Well, that's so much fun. I was going to ask if you had modeled any of your Satine after Nicole Kidman's version of the movie.

[36:30] Karen Olivo: I mean, we're so different.

[36:36] Alan Seales: Yeah, you are. You're very different.

[36:37] Karen Olivo: We all look so different. I don't know that I have any of the strengths that she does. So I don't know that. I mean, I'm also a firm believer in just like be your best version of you. I was such a huge fan of that movie. God, I mean.

[36:54] Karen Olivo: And like Baz Luhrmann basically just gave everybody creative license to make it your own, yeah?

[36:59] Karen Olivo: Yeah, we're lucky. He really trusts Alex. So he knew it would be in good hands. No, I mean, I guess I didn't. I guess when you love something that much and you're such a huge fan, the only way to really approach something like that is to love it and revere it, and then put it aside and say, I'm going to pay homage, but I'm not going to truly emulate because it wouldn't be possible for me.

[37:28] Alan Seales: Well, it's not authentic. If you're impersonating her, you're not being yourself.

[37:33] Karen Olivo: I mean, I'd like to be that ethereal, but I'm just not. This is not something I can do. It's a more.

[37:43] Alan Seales: I think your portrayal is a bit more like, what you were saying earlier, there's more depth, it's grittier, is what came to mind. Yeah, she's a sex worker. Yeah. Truthfully, let's just be honest. She's a legitimate sex worker who happens to be able to sing and dance. Right. And at that time in Paris, or even still in Europe, sex work is still, depends on where you are, it's not frowned upon. It's actually a pretty noble profession. Depending on where you go. But did you go see the actual Moulin Rouge?

[38:17] Karen Olivo: I did not.

[38:19] Alan Seales: You haven't?

[38:23] Karen Olivo: No. I know. Oh, I'm not judging either way.

[38:25] Alan Seales: I know. I've seen the outside.

[38:29] Karen Olivo: Oh, I've seen the outside. I've never seen the actual show at the Moulin Rouge, though. No.

[38:32] Alan Seales: There's not still, this is a dumb question, there's not still prostitution there, is there?

[38:33] Karen Olivo: I don't think so. Yeah, okay.

[38:35] Alan Seales: I can't imagine that there would be. I wouldn't think so. I mean, it's Amsterdam it could be, but not Paris. No, I don't think so.

[38:38] Karen Olivo: Okay, well, ignorant question. If anybody knows, write me, let me know. When, going back to Nicole Kidman, obviously presents, she's a very Caucasian presenting person. You are a person of color who you said you identify with being Puerto Rican. And when you were creating and crafting Satine, did any of that, did the racial aspect ever come into any of this or was it just a straight up story of love?

[39:11] Karen Olivo: For me, it didn't because I'm in an interracial relationship right now. My husband is Caucasian, so I never really thought of it. The things that did come up were my gender. A portrayal of a strong female character was very important, that kept popping up. There's an earlier version of our script in which Nini, much like the movie, is the person who rats out Satine and betrays her to the Duke. And pretty early on, sitting down with John Logan, our book writer, we were discussing, and there's so many things that we needed to keep from the movie, just plot points. We didn't want to remake the entire thing, but that was one thing that I was like, in our day and age, could it just be not that thing where the girl rats out the girl, that catty sort of competition thing that we see so often?

Could they actually be the sisters that I see a lot? And that ended up being something that transferred with it. So gender became more of an issue and race became less of an issue, I think. It's undeniable. People look at me and you're like, you're a brown woman and you're the sparkling diamond. And I see there are numerous little girls that come to the stage door and look at me and say, thank you for being this. And usually I'm like, no, thank you for saying that, first of all. And now you go and do, go and break some other barrier, go be something that no one ever thought that you could be. But yeah, I guess that's the longest answer to your question.

[40:52] Alan Seales: No, it's a great answer. And I love, I mean, the trend that as a society right now, I feel like the arts are allowed to fight back when in general, as a society, we're pushing against maybe something in the wrong direction. And of course, politics, we'll just leave that in the ether without getting into specifics. But some people vehemently disagree with where we're going and some people like it. And so I think as the arts right now are allowed to protest that without being in your face about it.

[41:22] Karen Olivo: Absolutely.

[41:25] Alan Seales: So you've got like Head Over Heels where Bonnie Milligan, a plus size woman, is the most beautiful woman in the land. And there's no question.

[41:33] Karen Olivo: Of course not. And then you've got like Satine, the sparkling diamond who was a woman of color. And there's no question.

[41:38] Alan Seales: Right. And I mean, you could talk about Lin Manuel for days and how he's changing things. And I just, I really applaud the whole creative team for not even giving it a second thought of like, yeah, this is feasible and it should be there.

[41:53] Karen Olivo: Oh, I think that the one thing that I would say with that is thank you for having this conversation because not a lot of people want to talk about that specifically. But it's not that it's not given a second thought because for a person of color, you're always thinking that because there is no way for you to forget the way that you've been treated or the way people look at you. People still make that very, it's still known. I mean, the statistic that you just quoted about the percentage of people of color, specifically Latin people who are card carriers, that weighs heavily on me. I think that we don't lead out with it in the show because that's not my job. The marketing portion of this is not my job.

But for the individual, it is a very important part for me. My personal experience with Moulin Rouge is not the public experience. But when in this situation, I do feel compelled to say that it is something that weighs heavily on me. I am always highly aware when I come down on that trapeze that I'm a woman of color and that people are looking at me and I am to be something, I have to, this is going to sound crazy, but I have to be the best woman of color in that role. Does that make sense?

[43:13] Alan Seales: Yeah, and it makes me really sad.

[43:19] Karen Olivo: Well, that's where we are though, right? Because people who see the movie, we see so many people come through our doors that are fans of the movie. And so if you're a fan of the movie, then you know Satine to be a gorgeous redhead, a very fair skinned, gorgeous redhead. And so if you see me come down, then the deck is stacked against me in some capacity. So then I have to use everything that I have to win you over. And I don't see it as a negative. I see it as a challenge. This is also the child of conflict coming up again. But I see it as an opportunity to let you know that it doesn't matter what I look like. And hopefully if I've done my job right, you won't see my skin color. You'll see a person who's hurting and who falls in love and who sacrifices for her family at the Moulin Rouge and ends up dying a wonderful death.

[44:10] Alan Seales: I don't know what to say next. For the first time, I think in 70 something interviews, a bit speechless. I feel very melancholy right now.

[44:20] Karen Olivo: No. I've saddened him.

[44:24] Alan Seales: I asked you if you wanted me to be real.

[44:26] Karen Olivo: I do. And I love this. No, I'm not going to edit any of this out. I think this is perfect. And this is what I want people to hear.

[44:32] Alan Seales: I don't know what else to say that's encouraging. When you came down, we already see the 11 minute opening number and the stage is set. You walk into the theater and the atmosphere, the whole house is transformed. It's not just the proscenium back. It's the entire house.

[44:54] Karen Olivo: Yes. You are in the Moulin Rouge. You are in the Moulin Rouge. And there's a pre-show and everyone's in character when they're walking around as the audience is loading in. And then you come down and it's literally like this diamond just sparkling from the ceiling. And to know that in the back of your mind, you feel immediately at a disadvantage just because of your skin color makes me so incredibly sad.

[45:17] Alan Seales: I don't know if it's necessarily like a disadvantage. Like you're trying to win over the audience.

[45:24] Karen Olivo: Yeah. Well, I mean, the structure of the play also makes it so that I have to win them over, right? 11 minutes. I mean, I have like a false introduction at one point in the show. They're like, here she comes. And they're like, no, she's not. So people are awaiting the sparkling diamond already. So that is already a hurdle for me. Where is she? Everyone's been talking about how she's the most dynamic. That's all they talk about. So there's that. And then there's my personal stuff.

[46:00] Alan Seales: Wow. That is not a negative, truthfully.

[46:07] Karen Olivo: I mean, I'm glad. OK, go ahead. I mean, I've made it this far being who I am with my background. Right. At this point, for me to get down about that stuff, it doesn't make sense. Right. I would never I wouldn't be sitting in this chair. I wouldn't have a Tony Award. I wouldn't. So I've managed to figure out a way to make those negatives something that just make me work harder. And it's a positive because it always works out because I don't stop. So it is that's the reality of our situation in the society right now. And luckily, I am wielding a sword that will help me slay the giant.

[46:45] Alan Seales: Yeah. The audience. It's a positive.

[46:49] Karen Olivo: Look, it's OK. I see it. I see it. I feel I'm feeling better.

[46:54] Alan Seales: Thank you. Thank you for making this about me.

[47:03] Karen Olivo: No, please don't think that, um, goodness. You're accomplishing what you're setting out to accomplish. Don't feel bad. Like, God, just seeing seeing the costumes and the set and the story and the singing and the music is incredible. And you are slaying out there.

[47:23] Alan Seales: Well, thank you. And I'm I want you to take something with you out of this that hopefully will give you a little bit less pressure every night. Just remember, remember this. Remember that you're doing a good job. And so many people continue to think so. And they write about it. You've got reviews coming out. I read the reviews. So they're good.

[47:36] Karen Olivo: I didn't read a single bad one.

[47:41] Alan Seales: All right. Yeah. It's all like just praising how much ass you are kicking coming out of that coming down from the fly every day. All right. For eight times a week anyway. Yeah. So continue doing what you're doing. You're doing great.

[47:51] Karen Olivo: Thanks. So there are three standard closing questions that I ask everyone.

[47:55] Alan Seales: All right.

[47:55] Karen Olivo: On the podcast. Hope I get them right.

[48:01] Alan Seales: Well, there's no wrong answer.

[48:01] Karen Olivo: Okay. Because I would definitely get them wrong. Cool. Let's go. There's three standard trivia questions I ask everyone. Okay. The first one is what motivates you?

[48:11] Karen Olivo: Ah, youth. The youth. I look at my kids. I look at students that I teach. I'm motivated by them.

[48:18] Alan Seales: Yeah. All right. Second question is what advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[48:26] Karen Olivo: I would say trust your gut a little bit more and be kinder to yourself. I get the be kind to yourself. Get that so much. There's so much self doubt and self hate all over the place. So bad. Yeah. I'm a victim of myself. I got the devil and the angel on your shoulders and the devil talks a lot.

[48:55] Alan Seales: And then the final question. This is the hardest one. If you could only see one show for the rest of your life, but you can see it as many times as you want, what would you see?

[49:07] Karen Olivo: Oh, dang. I've never seen a production of it, but it's my favorite musical. It would be Passion.

[49:13] Alan Seales: Hmm. Okay. There you go. And we can find you online on Instagram and Twitter at Karen Olivo 76 and both platforms. And of course, KarenOlivo.com. And you get more of me at the theater podcast.com support the podcast at theater podcast.com slash Patreon. Find me on Instagram and Twitter at theater underscore podcast. Listen and leave a rating on whatever platform you are listening to at the present moment. Turn to your friend next to you and say, Hey friend, I'm listening to Karen Olivo. You need to listen to this too. This is edited by Matthew Hendershot. Thank you to Jukebox the Ghost for the intro and outro music. Music, music, music. Thank you. Thank you to Jukebox the Ghost for the intro and outro music. And Karen. Thank you.

[50:03] Karen Olivo: You're so welcome. For this amazingly great conversation. This is fun. Thank you very much for coming.