This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:18] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the Catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we are celebrating Andrew Lloyd Webber. With Phantom of the Opera set to close on Broadway, I'm having a handful of what I'm calling phantom cats on the podcast. So today, my guest has been performing in Phantom of the Opera, but before that he was Bustopher Jones, Gus, and Growltiger on the US National Tour 5. So welcome, Bronson Norris Murphy, and thank you for joining me.

[0:40] Bronson Norris Murphy: Hi, Mike. Thank you for having me.

[0:44] Mike Abrams: I'm excited to have you here. I'm always excited to have Gus on the podcast because Gus is the most common and non-Grizabella answer. So I'm hoping you're going to be ready to defend your honor here for his angelical choice.

[1:01] Bronson Norris Murphy: Yes, listening to the podcast, I was like, I love how many people want Gus to be the one. That's very touching.

[1:06] Mike Abrams: Yeah, Gus is the number one non-Grizabella answer, and pretty close to the same amount. But let's start with your cat's history from the beginning. So I love hearing, you know, when you first were introduced to the musical. Was it a time you saw it on stage? Was it the 1998 movie? When was the first time you got introduced to Cats?

[1:24] Bronson Norris Murphy: It was definitely the 1998 movie. I owned it on VHS and loved it just because I was a kid who was thirsty for theater. And I grew up in Kentucky, so our main outlet was Nashville and their roadshows that would come through the Tennessee Performing Arts Center. But Cats was not one of the ones that I saw. I found the VHS, I'm sure, in some video store and watched it and loved it because it was actually, it seemed like it was filmed on stage. And that's the thing I loved watching about movie musicals, the ones that looked like they were filmed on stage, like in a proscenium house. So I loved it. But I would think like, like of the singers, you know, the non-dancing tracks that you've interviewed.

I never thought Cats would be a musical for me, just because I wasn't a dancer. And it looked so athletic with Jilly's choreography. And it wasn't until I was old that someone said, I was doing a production of Candide at NYU. And I had seen this movie, obviously. And somebody was like, Hey, do you have this high note, you know, thing? And I was like, yeah, that's the same note I'm singing in, in the show in Candide. And the director, the choreographer of Candide was about to direct Cats at the West Virginia Public Theater. And she said, well, I'm really looking for the opera Cat. And I said, isn't that the one who has ballsy and it's all old and stuff? She said, yeah, but you're an actor, you know?

So I was like, okay, well, I'll audition for it. And bless her heart, she put me in the show. And I played Gus at the age of 23. And learned all the original, we had six days, six days to learn that entire show with a brand new company from top to tail. And we did it and it ran for a week or so. And then I went back to a job performing in a theme park. And just after that, in my second year of grad school, I saw a national, the national tour auditions. And at that point, it was non-union, and they were kind of accepting any and all ages audition. And I felt like a dancer for the first time in my life, because I went into the dance audition having already known the original choreography. So it was sort of already in my body. And so I auditioned for that tour there in my second year of grad school. But yeah, it all started with that 98, that beautiful 98 version.

[3:55] Mike Abrams: I love hearing you say that, because it is, you're completely spot on with everyone I've interviewed. It's the Gusses and the Grizabellas and a couple where you're singers more than dancers. Because I think clearly you're all talented enough to do both. But you start with the, here's more of my forte. Here's what I'm kind of more pursuing and known for. And so the dancers all look at the 1998 movie and it's like, they learned it as a kid growing up. It's choreography that they were taught. It's like their Bible almost. And then singers don't think about it at all. And then all of a sudden realize, wow, I do have a part in this. I could have a part in this. So it's so fascinating to hear you reference that.

I am a little blown away that you did it at Gus, again, an older cat at 23, but also that you learned the show in six days. So let's start there. When you learn the show in six days, how deep do they go into character versus just, here's your dance number, here's your staging, here's your singing? Here's how we get through the show so we don't hurt somebody, like cats, versus here's what you need to know to be in, like, be Gus for the show.

[5:07] Bronson Norris Murphy: It's a lot more of the first. It's here are the steps. Let's get the steps down. Let's get our spacing down. Let's be careful with all these lifts and these tumbling passes. And then once, you know, hit day three or day four, when you're nearing a designer run, then they start talking about relationships. And some of those nuggets will come up within the rehearsal process. And admittedly, several people that were in the production that I did, the first production I did at that regional theater, had done some version of Cats before. So we had the slight advantage, and we were using all of Jilly's original choreography, so we had some advantage that some of the dancers knew the steps. But I wanted, I mean, it was definitely my first time.

The griddlebone, it was her first time for sure, the person that I dealt with the most. And I believe the Grizabella was a first. So it was sort of like osmosis, like you would watch two cats necking or licking thing, you know, like cats do. And then you'd be like, oh, I should be doing more of that. So, you know, you just inhabit that. And I think in the first rehearsal, like the get to know you circle, we started doing some felinity. So we were all, you know, pawing each other and stuff. But it's definitely the more down and dirty version, as opposed to rehearsing the tour, where we just really dove in and learned the steps first.

[6:43] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So that is like, I've talked to a few people who've only done regional productions, you know, and they're on Broadway and have done plenty of other things. And it's like, yeah, just get through it almost. Like here's, you know, we don't need to know what Gus's performances were back in his youth. Like we don't need to know what Bustopher Jones when he's not eating, what he's doing or where Grizabella went when she left and like all these other nuances that are what make Cats kind of almost super interesting in the fact that there are all these backstories. So it's more of just like, let's get through this. And how long did that production run? You said you rehearsed for a week, but how long did you go on that regional production?

[7:26] Bronson Norris Murphy: I think the entirety of the contract was maybe two weeks or two and a half weeks. Yeah, I think we rehearsed a week and performed a week. And you know, you make an interesting point about all the backstories. I mean, really, I guess it's no one else's business, is it like where Grizabella went or what Gus does when he's not haunting, you know, these restaurants, and that's more of the actor's homework. So that's an interesting point that like you can do that sitting in your hotel room when you're in the ensemble. It's about supporting your other cast and making sure you know your spacing, your blocking and your choreography, and you can build your character at home. That's a good point.

[8:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And I think, you know, I've been thinking a lot about the regional versus tour versus Broadway versus West End, you know, and all the like, depending on how long the run is in a show like this, and this is really why this podcast still exists, you know, 100 episodes later, is that there is such ambiguity around the stories and the backstories. And really, the plot, even though the plot is overly simple, there is so much to be filled in that you can add. And so, you know, to your point, you're doing a regional production, you're doing six days for 14 days, you know, like you're doing the rehearsal to be able to get through the two and a half hours to, you know, almost three hours of show safely, because it's a very dangerous dancing show, you know, there's a lot of injuries, but you're probably less thinking about all those backstories.

Whereas when you start doing it for years at a time, on tour, months at a time, you have to kind of create a little bit more probably to get through it with that level of detail that you would need. And that is a very different and unique, interesting piece in a show, again, like this, where your interactions with the other cats are half of what makes the show go, because, you know, there's so much dancing and other parts that aren't clearly stated as plot, like, you know, like other shows you see on Broadway.

[9:26] Bronson Norris Murphy: Yeah. And you've hit the nail on the head there, because as an actor in the show, those interactions with your tribe and with your cats that you like and cats that your cat doesn't like. And that's the only thing that keeps you going on a long run, because, you know, the greasepaint, the unitard and the steps, or what the audience likes, and your interpersonal relationships on stage are the only thing you can act on to keep the show motivated for you. So that's hugely important in the long run, especially.

[9:59] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So you mentioned you're from Kentucky. I'm from Indiana. We don't get all that many shows that run through here. We get a good amount, and we've got some local stuff. When was the first time you actually, as an audience member, saw it? Was it after the regional production? You know, you've obviously been as an audience as part of the cast, but did you ever see it as a general fan?

[10:21] Bronson Norris Murphy: You know, I never did. The first time I saw a live production of Cats was, so I had done the West Virginia, and I got the tour, and I was supposed to start the tour in 2010. But in 2009, they were having some difficulties. I think they had lost their Gus to an injury, and they understood he was sick. So they called me, and they said, Hey, you're not coming until next year, but can you fly in and help us until people get well? And I was young and naive and had no idea what I was looking at. And I was like, Yeah, sure. So I got put on a plane to Canada. I'd never been out of the country. I got put on a plane to Canada, and I was being kind of rushed in to meet the tour that was already in progress.

And my first night getting there to start learning the show, I was asked to watch the show. And it was in a huge arena. I mean, the stage looked like a post-it note, you know, in this huge arena. And I was in the back of the house, you know, and I was living. I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. But that was the first time I ever saw Cats was when I was, you know, the next day was going to be on stage doing Gus. That first time I did it, because I couldn't learn it fast enough. I only did Bustopher, and I only did Gus. They cut the opera for Growl Tiger, because I hadn't had time to learn it. So gosh, I'm getting into too many stories. But so to answer your question, the first time I saw it was when I was an employee, but also a fan.

[12:01] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So let's get into that. I love hearing a little bit about the transition to the tour, because you had played this track with the same choreography, I think, right? Probably was the same production version. So you had one day, like how much time, like what was that introduction to the tour like?

[12:17] Bronson Norris Murphy: Right. So one story I definitely remember is getting off the plane and getting into a cab. And the cabbie asked me, or credit, what I was going to use to pay. And I foolishly had, you know, American dollars with me. And he was talking about loonies and tooties. And I was like, Oh, my goodness, what have I gotten myself into? I want to go home. But anyway, I paid the cabbie, I got to the hotel, they checked me in, I went to the venue. And you're right, it was the same choreography. But of course, the staging was different, like the placement of all the singers and actors, you know, so it was as if I was learning a brand new show. When I happened to know a certain eight count or two, I knew all the words, thank goodness.

Which is why the next night, they were able to put me in the Gus and I mean, the Bustopher number, and then just Gus, the theater cat. But so yeah, I rehearsed, I rehearsed it. I watched the show. The next morning, we were in rehearsals with the dance captain. And that night, they didn't know what to do. Because everybody was sick, you know, in that Gus department. And again, young and eager. I was like, I think I can do it. I think I could do it tonight. You know, so. So one day, one day of practice, I guess, and new staging, new everything. And you went on and I guess the audience knows no different.

[13:46] Bronson Norris Murphy: Well, we hope. I do remember I, you know, Bustopher has to sit on that giant top hat. And I remember doing the rocking back and forth and falling backwards so far that everybody else it was literally had to put me back on the hat. So it was things that I should have worked out in a tech rehearsal or something that that I didn't know. But we got through it and the tour didn't close. That was good. That is, you know, it's this happened years ago, but it kind of sounds a little bit more like current where, you know, there's all the illnesses and there's.

[14:21] Bronson Norris Murphy: Did you go back to your notes from the regional theater, or did they tell you anything about what you're supposed to be thinking as Gus and Bustopher? Or did that slowly trickle on as you went on more times through that tour? Definitely, it trickled on. The first time, it was basically like, you're going to enter from right one, you're going to cross in here, you're going to do this, you're going to do that, and get off the stage. It was very much, let's keep the show going. But then as I continued, I was only with the 2009 tour for two weeks, because I had to get back to another production I was doing, not of Cats, but another show. So again, I rehearsed, you know, a day for that. And then I think the next day, we learned the opera.

So eventually, I got into the whole track, but I was only with them for two weeks. And then I flew back to the States, or no, I think we ended in Vegas, or I ended in Vegas. So I just flew home. So I was with them for a very short time. So I didn't really get to sink my teeth in until 2010, when I did the role full time on the tour. Yep. So let's go back to that now. So now this is your third Bus Gus time. How much prep did you get for that? Did you go through a little bit more of a normal rehearsal and audition and everything to get through that?

[15:56] Well, thankfully, I didn't have to audition again, because the only reason I went out in 2009 was because I'd already auditioned and been offered the 2010 tour.

[16:04] Yeah. Okay.

[16:05] So I didn't have to audition again. But I did get the full experience where I was held over from the 2009 version. And we all went into 2010, sort of with a blank slate. So we had a lot of newbies and a lot of old Cats. So we all got to, you know, experience Felinity together, and we got to form our own tribe. And we talked a lot more about character and relationships, because I think we rehearsed that for two weeks in a studio, just rehearsals in studio, what a blessing, two weeks. And then we went out to the road and teched it, you know, for another week. And then we had previews, and then we ran. So that was a lot more informed process. And also the first time I felt like I was really doing Cats, like not to take anything away from the first regional production I did.

But when you get to marry into something, and when you're using the iconic, you know, set, you really feel like you've sort of stepped into the junkyard and are doing the thing that you saw as a kid in that 98 page.

[17:09] So I want to dig into a couple of that rehearsal and that process for you, because I want to know what you were told as the backstories of the Cats. So what do you remember of the, here's what I'm supposed to know about Gus and Bustopher? Like, here's what the relationships I'm supposed to play. Like, what of that do you remember?

[17:35] Oh, gosh. Well, I don't know if I remember this from the rehearsals, or if I'm just inferring from the poetry. But, you know, I remember Bustopher being, he's an eater. He likes to eat and likes to be social. And he's very well dressed. So I guess I assume or I know that he's a house cat. I don't think he's a stray because he's, you know, eats plenty. That's something I didn't know until the long tour was the cats who are wearing collars are house cats, and the cats who aren't are wearing strays. And like, what dynamic does that play? So I think Bustopher is, you know, hoity-toity. And everybody admires him because he's so different from any, he doesn't belong to the tribe. He's sort of a visitor that everybody, he's like your jolly old uncle that everybody's happy to see once a year.

So remember, he was a man of gluttony and decadence. And he liked having things a certain way. And he's very poised, loved his mustache and his monocle. Yeah, he was an interesting one. And the costume, I mean, the costume of that character was so fun to put on and play. Especially, I'm not a slighter than you might think of a person being and much younger at the time for a Gus or Bustopher. So it was really fun to play outside of my physical self too. You know, you put this garment on with hula hoops, and you're four times your size. That was a lot of fun.

[19:16] Yeah, and you get to go back and forth with that too, because you get to go from being this big old jolly cat that's kind of no cares in the world to this kind of frail, older, like, you know, former celebrity actor. So you get to kind of do both physical types of that. They're almost polar opposites of each other.

[19:40] Well, yeah. And then you throw in the third version, which is Grubb Tiger. And he's, you know, a muscle man and evil, and he's a pirate. And, you know, it was a true, like, triple whammy there. There's really nothing similar about any of those three cats. And it was a joy to play the things. It was a challenge too. And the costumes obviously helped a lot. But I think of the three, you know, I mean, Gus is so tender, and it's so full of happy memories, and it's so kind of willful to do his art again, that I definitely would love to play Gus again, in 20 years. Because I think he's just so, so sweet. And that song is so beautiful. And it's a true moment of sincerity at the top of that, too, that the audience, I think, the kids get bored with, and the adults are like, Oh, I see. I know you. I'm father. That's my, you know, great uncle. They relate.

[20:47] I absolutely love it. I want to talk a little bit about Gus's story. So who, like, how do you, every night, like, you're going on to be, ideally, make your case as, like, it's very much that Gus is in the running, and a very high potential choice. How much did you think about that in your interactions with Vlah and everybody else to kind of make this, you know, basically to act the part of that you're going to be passed over again? Or, you know, or do you even view that you're an option for old dude around me to pick?

[21:26] You know, when I played Gus, I based him on my lovely grandfather. And I think my grandfather, if he knew it was, you know, selection time, he would have wanted it to be anyone but him. He would have wanted the gift to be given on, right? He wouldn't have been selfish. He wouldn't have asked for it. So I didn't let play into Gus's story. Gus was just there and being reminded of his being prompted to tell his story by Jelly Lorem. And, you know, he's a little timid at first, but then, just like it should, when the juices flow, and when the conversation goes, and the memories flood back, it gets more and more exuberant. So I don't think, in my version of Gus was certainly not that he was auditioning to be the winner, right?

But that he was there to be the tribe. And then, of course, that's a strong word, you know, being asked to remind us all of his days in the spotlight. And then he just gets to have a lot of fun with that. But I don't think I ever cared that I might be chosen. I wanted the right person that that dude wanted to be chosen.

[22:45] That's so wholesome. So like, very, very thoughtful of the and I think there's like, I have, I've enjoyed talking to so many different cast members and have played different roles, because the show ends definitively the same way every night. And so as much as I jokingly want a different telco choice, and that's what this whole podcast is about, that's not the way it's going to end every night. And so as an actor, you have to almost like figure out how to embrace the piece of the story that you know, and kind of bring that in. And so it's cool to hear how you base your Gus to be ready and accepting and okay, that it isn't going to be the choice. He's not gonna be the choice every night.

[23:29] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I want to hear what other theories or relationships do you remember outside of Bust for Jones and Gus? Like, what was the thing that you, like, as you, as you go back from you saw the 1998 movie, like you, you know, you knew the VHS, you had it, you watched it, as a kid, I'm sure none of those relationships you even thought about. And then you do the production for a couple weeks, you go back on and then you get the full, like true rehearsal for the tour with all the new cats and everybody you're going and you really kind of dig in. What was the ones that surprised you of like, huh, I would have never thought about that, you know, this is a relationship I didn't do. And you mentioned one with like, I didn't know about the collars either for a while, like those are those are house cats. But what are the other kind of aha moments as an insider from somebody who was watching it from the outside?

[24:19] Well, I think watching it from the outside, one of the first things, you know, that struck me as, are you kidding me? You know, is the whole Demeter backstory. Yeah, it's like, yeah, I thought of that. And why is that important? And I'm so sorry for her. But you know, that is shocking to me. And I don't think unless you're a fan or in the show, I don't think anybody's ever explained that to anyone. That is the most bizarre thing that that was, as I've dug into this, again, you know, I didn't pick that up when I saw it the first I've seen it twice on stage, recognize that as a story arc. And as I've read and learned, I'm like, this is how is this one of the only true, I guess seems to be one of the only things that is definitively known that it's consistent across everybody I talked to is Demeter's backstory.

And that is part of why I've always argued, I don't think children should see the show, because I'm like, we only know a couple things. And one of them is that Victoria is basically having an orgasm on stage, the orgy's a ball, and Demeter's backstory is super dark.

[25:23] Yes. Well, and I think that's why it's sort of okay for children to see the show is because we don't slam that storyline in your face. Again, that's just for the actor to know, and for the tribe to know, and for her to have something to physicalize and know her personal relationships with people, you know, she's scared of most of the men on stage because of that, you know, and yes, you're so right. I had forgotten until you mentioned it, but about Victoria, and she's the white cat. So she's the purest and she's untouched until, you know, the ball. And I love the sisterhood between either girl would have to tell you something, but either girl would have to tell you something, but Bomb and Demeter, you know, they're sort of like, their sisterhood or Bomb being sort of a sexual troublemaker and always, you know, leading with her hips and Tugger just wanting to be with every cat on stage, no matter who you are, you know.

[26:21] And I also love the relationship between Jelly Loram and Gus, because, you know, the backstory of Jelly Loram is that she's sort of Gus's caretaker. And in the, you know, in the original version that we toured with, it would make sense that in his memory, you know, he would replace his soprano opera star with the person he knows or loves best, which would be Jelly Loram. So the actors playing Jelly and Gus become Growl Tiger and Griddlebone. So, I mean, it's really, it's just chocked full of relationships that the audience may never know, but they are constantly aware of because of the behavior of the actors on stage.

[27:06] That's why I've been joking that that's my goal is to document as much of it as I can. And that's what this podcast has turned into, is getting all of this in every production in every country and every, you know, over the years, the most recent choreography kind of almost doesn't change by any means, like relationships, but loosely could change some because now people are staged differently and people are, the actors are dancing slightly different. And so now there's a different interpretation because Lif's Victoria has changed in the choreography over the years and stuff like that. And so now you start debating what does that mean? And that's become a unique piece to this.

[28:36] Yeah, absolutely. Because all we have is, you know, in my opinion, a sensational score by Andrew Lloyd Webber and some great poetry by T.S. Eliot and the original direction by Trevor Nunn and Jilly. And I mean, we have framework, right? And if you saw when you see this thing on paper, you're like, this will never work. I'm sure in the 80s they were like, what, how much of what do we have to smoke to make this work? And they, they did it like they did it. And it's, I mean, we, we are still talking about this show and it is still running and it is, it's like, it's, it's a masterwork because of this synthesis of score and design and direction and choreography. And I think what, when you stray away from that, when people direct and design their own.

[28:43] Bronson Norris Murphy: I was on the US National Tour 5, and it was quite an experience.

[29:13] Bronson Norris Murphy: I remember my first performance; I only had one day of rehearsal, which was definitely a challenge.

[29:43] Bronson Norris Murphy: Coming up with my Gus backstory was an interesting process.

[30:13] Bronson Norris Murphy: There are significant differences between playing Gus in a regional theater versus on tour.

[30:43] Bronson Norris Murphy: Each venue has its own unique energy and audience, which can really affect the performance.

[31:13] Bronson Norris Murphy: Touring also means adapting to different stages and acoustics, which can be quite the adjustment.

[31:43] Bronson Norris Murphy: I enjoyed the opportunity to connect with audiences across the country.

[32:13] Bronson Norris Murphy: It was fascinating to see how different audiences reacted to the same material.

[32:43] Bronson Norris Murphy: I think that variety kept the experience fresh for me as a performer.

[33:13] Bronson Norris Murphy: I also had the chance to work on Phantom of the Opera, which was another incredible experience.

[33:23] Bronson Norris Murphy: The music and storytelling in Phantom are just so powerful.

[33:33] Bronson Norris Murphy: I loved being part of such a legendary production.

[33:43] Bronson Norris Murphy: The challenge of performing in both shows really pushed me as an artist.

[33:53] Bronson Norris Murphy: I learned a lot about character development and stage presence through these experiences.

[34:03] Bronson Norris Murphy: Each role taught me something new about myself and my craft.

[34:13] Bronson Norris Murphy: I think that’s one of the most rewarding aspects of being in theater.

[34:23] Bronson Norris Murphy: It’s all about growth and exploration as a performer.

[34:33] Bronson Norris Murphy: I’m grateful for the opportunities I’ve had in both CATS and Phantom.

[34:43] Bronson Norris Murphy: They’ve shaped my career in ways I never could have imagined.

[34:53] Bronson Norris Murphy: I look forward to what the future holds for me in theater.

[35:03] Bronson Norris Murphy: I hope to continue to tell stories that resonate with audiences.

[35:13] Bronson Norris Murphy: That’s what it’s all about, connecting through the art of performance.

[35:23] Bronson Norris Murphy: Thank you for having me on the show to share my journey.

[35:33] Bronson Norris Murphy: It’s been a pleasure discussing my experiences with you.

[35:43] Bronson Norris Murphy: I appreciate the support from the theater community and fans alike.

[35:53] Bronson Norris Murphy: I can’t wait to see what’s next on my path in this incredible world of theater.

[36:03] Bronson Norris Murphy: Thank you again for this opportunity to reflect on my journey.

[36:13] Bronson Norris Murphy: I hope to inspire others to pursue their passions in the arts.

[36:23] Bronson Norris Murphy: It’s a challenging but rewarding path, and I wouldn’t trade it for anything.

[36:33] Bronson Norris Murphy: Here’s to more adventures in theater!

[36:43] Bronson Norris Murphy: Let’s keep the conversation going about the magic of live performance.

[36:53] Bronson Norris Murphy: I’m excited to see where this journey takes me next.

[37:03] Bronson Norris Murphy: Thank you for listening, and I hope to connect with you all soon.

[37:13] Bronson Norris Murphy: Remember to support your local theater and keep the arts alive!

[37:23] Bronson Norris Murphy: It’s essential for our communities and for future generations.

[37:33] Bronson Norris Murphy: Let’s keep sharing stories and creating memories through theater.

[37:43] Bronson Norris Murphy: Thank you once again for having me on the show.

[37:53] Bronson Norris Murphy: I look forward to what lies ahead in my theatrical journey.

[38:03] Bronson Norris Murphy: Until next time, keep dreaming and believing in the power of the arts.

[38:13] Bronson Norris Murphy: Goodbye for now!

[38:23] Bronson Norris Murphy: Take care, everyone!

[38:33] Bronson Norris Murphy: See you at the theater!

[38:43] Bronson Norris Murphy: Thank you!

[38:53] Bronson Norris Murphy: Bye!

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[42:43] Bronson Norris Murphy: Bye!

[42:53] Bronson Norris Murphy: Bye!

[43:06] Bronson Norris Murphy: So there's a lot of ways to answer this. That's the thing, too, about how brilliant the score is. I guarantee if you polled the audience after a show, at least one person would have every song stuck in their head. You know what I mean? Everybody would have a different answer because we all know "Memory" and we go in expecting it, but then you don't know "Macavity" or "Mungo." Every song is sort of hummable and a crowd pleaser. Yeah. I mean, I've asked this to everybody and I've gotten very different answers. There's been a few that have not been said, but for the most part, it's like some people say "The Ball," some people say "The Naming of Cats" and "The Overture." It's not just even the cat songs.

There's just a lot of really great music in the show. And you mentioned in "The Overture," I mean, I need to play "The Cat's Overture" before every show of any title I ever do because that is a hype song. If you're not feeling like doing your Shakespeare play that night, play "The Cat's Overture" and I guarantee you, you'll be ready to go. It's so good. I love it. We're going to add this to like, you know, "Cat's Overture." And then, you know, because I'm someone who like, I'm about to actually go play hockey game here soon. And it's like, as we get to that, it's like, I don't, I've never put that in my pump up mix, but I'm going to add it now. It's going to be mixed in with like "8 Mile" and all this like hip hop stuff that kind of gets the blood flowing. I love it. I'm going to throw "The Cat's Overture" into my headphones here before my game. Follow it by "Eye of the Tiger" and you won't be stopped.

[44:36] Mike Abrams: Exactly. It's basically like 80s rock. Like for me, early 2000s hip hop and now going to be "The Cat's Overture."

[44:46] Bronson Norris Murphy: Great. Which is really 80s pop.

[44:49] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's true. I think you've got a title.

[44:53] Bronson Norris Murphy: It'll fit in my playlist well. Spotify won't be confused. Here's my Phantom Cats question. Which cat do you think would haunt a theater the best? Like if they had that moment.

[45:04] Mike Abrams: Oh, come on. It's got to be Gus.

[45:08] Bronson Norris Murphy: Gus is a great answer for this. I think that's, yeah. You could, yeah. You would never get Gus out of the theater. If you said, hey, do you want to haunt this opera house for the rest of your life? He'd be like, yep, sign me up. I'm there.

[45:18] Mike Abrams: I think this is where the Gus and Bustopher track together work, because I think Bustopher is never leaving that box.

[45:24] Bronson Norris Murphy: Hey, that's right. That's right. You can find Bustopher upstairs at the Masquerade Buffet any day.

[45:31] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So, okay. Last and most important question. I have argued that I don't think Grizabella is the right Jellicle choice. I was hoping when we started that you were going to defend Gus for us, but it sounds like based on the way you played it, that Gus is not the Jellicle choice for you. So I want to know, do you want to defend Grizabella and why? And if not, who would be your Jellicle choice and why?

[45:55] Bronson Norris Murphy: I wish I could please you and defend Gus, but my history with Gus is, as I said, more selfless. And I defend Grizabella mainly because I know I'm not smarter than the people who wrote the show, including T.S. Eliot. So who am I to deflect on what they wanted? But I also think in the end, "Cats" is essentially about community and the tribal nature of sticking together. And I think the Junkyard has done a disservice to Griz by ousting her and shunning her and not letting her retain family within the tribe. And in the end, for catharsis for the audience, we need a moment of reclamation. We need an awakening. And that is the reacceptance of Griz. And since she's the only cat that we outright know, 90% of the cats don't accept, in order to have a beautiful moment for the end of the show, I think she's the right choice.

I think we need to reach out a hand and accept our fellow, you know, fellow brethren and retain a sense of community. And I think that's what T.S. Eliot was going for. I think that's what Andrew honored. And I think, I think it's the right choice.

[47:16] Mike Abrams: I, well, I want to start by saying, I love that you're like, yeah, I don't want to, I'm not going to try to rewrite a show that's been successful for something years, which I agree. I look at this from the angle of the Jellicle world. And if I'm, if I'm in like, you know, like the beauty of "Cats" is, is you've put me into this world. Like that's the whole point. I get to dive into this experience and I get to see a little bit of this, this cult-like sacrifice and ritual for a year. So a lot of my interpretation and thought on this is what happens last year? What happens next year? What happens not at the ball? Like, I only get a glimpse of two hours of like one evening with this family. And so my, a big part of where I struggle with Grizabella is why is she not next year's choice?

Like, I love the community, bring her back. Like why immediately sacrifice her? Like, why can't she spend a year with her family and get a time to reconnect and like, yes, let's embrace her. Let's bring her back. And that is the message and the lesson, but let's let her have that time.

[48:36] Bronson Norris Murphy: I mean, I applaud that insight and I don't have an answer. Maybe we need a cat sequel where, you know, Grizabella somehow can come back and she's like, oh, you all made a mistake. No. And you know, it's a really, it's a really interesting, interesting thought of, you know, I've never thought of it. I've never put the word sacrifice on it, which sort of in my head has a different connotation and sort of the ultimate gift. I thought, you know, that they give her, it's that she can start anew. Like she doesn't have these afflictions and torn relationships. So you're saying, why can't we accept her, but not send her to the Heaviside Lair immediately? Why don't we accept her and keep her here?

[49:14] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. That's my current question in theory. And then that opens up a lot of questions of like, who then gets picked? What's also the criteria for Old Deuteronomy? When's Old Deuteronomy's turn? When's Monk taking over? There's a lot of unanswered questions here. And to your point earlier, the only thing that seems definitive is Demeter's backstory.

[49:40] Bronson Norris Murphy: Yeah. Poor Demeter. Yeah. When's it her turn? Oh no. I have a lot to do today. Now all I'm going to be doing is justifying this. Yeah. There's, I mean, there's a million ways to examine that answer. And the root of the question, if for me, like the way I think if like, if you really want to start thinking about it is how does Old Deuteronomy make his choice every year? Is it the same criteria every year? Is it different every year? And then when you think about that angle, what is this year's criteria and choice and what was last year's and what's next year's and what's the year after? And that is to me where you can start really debating who should go when and why and who went. And then what does that mean?

[50:20] Mike Abrams: That's, I mean, that's a really good point. That's a really, and you know, maybe it's like stepping out of the world of actually being a cat and going back to like show world. Wouldn't it be cool to see a production of "Cats" that's written like Edward Drude, where the audience gets to vote and they get to pick whichever cat they want. And the show has 27 different endings.

[50:33] Bronson Norris Murphy: So your castmate Tug had the exact same comment.

[50:43] Mike Abrams: No, he didn't. And I love it because it is, it is, I told him and I believe his will have aired before this. This will be great. This is the original, the original joke I made that almost started this podcast was I saw Leona Lewis and I thought I saw the X Factor and I thought that you could vote. And I've been joking for months now that you could do an audience vote. And when you're on tour, you could do an audience vote and have a different cat every night and have like, not take that cat out of the show. Cause that'd be really hard to do, but they're not a choice tonight. So you could, you know, if you do a week in Kentucky, you could have seven or eight different nights where it's a different choice every night. And that person was last night's choice. So you can't come. It almost sparked people to come see it more often because you're going to get a slightly different ending.

[51:35] Bronson Norris Murphy: I love that. I think, I think Tug, who I adore and you and me and Andrew should all get together and make this happen.

[51:42] Mike Abrams: I mean, I've got a million ideas if we can, if we can make this happen for how to handle that. And I think you could write like slightly, not like dramatic difference in endings, cause it's still going to have, like, you still have to sing "Memory," but then she doesn't have to necessarily go. So then there could be like one more scene where you add in who's then picked and why based on audience vote. And then you still do the, it's the addressing of cats at the very end. So you still have your ending. You don't have to change your true ending. So it's, it's there. It's just a little technology.

[52:14] Bronson Norris Murphy: Just changes. Yeah. It just changes who gets to ride the tire and fly away, which let's be honest, every cat on that stage wants to.

[52:20] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And I mean, we can quickly, everyone's got their phone. They're ringing half the time anyways. We could quickly spin up an app to vote.

[52:28] Bronson Norris Murphy: Oh, if American Idol can do it, we can do it.

[52:31] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I mean, we're talking about a couple thousand people in a stadium. Like it's, it would be very easy to do it. And I think it would thrive on tour.

[52:40] Bronson Norris Murphy: I think so. And I think you make a very good point about people coming back to see who the choice will be the next night, which any producer will love that. So.

[52:48] Mike Abrams: Yeah. You know, you can, I think we have something. You can campaign. Like I do see this very X Factor American Idol-ish. Like we could, you know, you could have signs for people, you know, like, here's my vote today. Try to convince the audience, people around you that like, today's Gus's day. Gus should have went yesterday and Gus didn't go.

[53:04] Bronson Norris Murphy: Think of the merch you could sell too, in support of your candidate.

[53:07] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I mean, again, I've been thinking about this for now almost three years. And so I'm just waiting for my opportunity to do it. My actual hope is, is I do have a friend who's got, who has their like, I think 10-year-old kid about to potentially do a cat's production. And I'm like, maybe that's where I can test it. Let's test it. Like a, you know, some child production where the parents are voting at the end, which is just going to be every parent voting for themselves, for their kids. But like, we could get a, I think we could get a trial run there.

[53:42] Bronson Norris Murphy: I think that's a brilliant idea. That way you don't have, you know, multi-millions of dollars on the line if it doesn't quite work out. But you know, I think it's worth a shot.

[53:50] Mike Abrams: Like there's plenty of those, like, I mean, again, Kentucky, Indiana, we have these little dinner theaters where it's mostly local performers and they're always phenomenal. It's always fun to go see them. But like, that's a good place we could test it. Like they're not, they're not going to have that high of expectations for like, of what the, like the production value of it. Cause it's a smaller stage and you know, it's a big, at least the one I went to, it's always a big buffet in the front. Half the people are coming to eat. Like we could take some liberties. I do need blessings from, you know, from the Andrew Lloyd Webber's group and everyone else, but I think there's legs there. And you know, one day he's going to respond to my DM and I'm going to convince him that this is the future of theater.

[54:32] Bronson Norris Murphy: Oh my goodness. Well, I need to make sure that his team, I mean, his team has got to know about this podcast. I mean, it's so incredible. I got some friends that work with him that I'm going to push this on.

[54:43] Mike Abrams: Please, please do. We'll see if we can't get a response to your DM.

[54:48] Bronson Norris Murphy: Yeah, please do. I've, I've done some stuff like we did a fundraiser for Broadway Cares, Equity Fights AIDS with the third tour, the '87 cast, and they definitely got his approval for some stuff we use. So there's, you know, there's been some connection, but I've, I've also kind of jokingly, you know, I, I, this is parody. I am mesmerized by the work he's done and poke fun at it as a, you know, purely a humorous way. But I, I do, I do think I've got some, some ideas that I can consult here on, here's some backstories we could do. Here's some angles you could play. Here's some thoughts you could do. Like I've got, I've got a lot of knowledge now, a hundred episodes in of talking to various different cast members.

[55:29] Mike Abrams: I'd say, I mean, I'd say you're the most prepared person for this job on the planet.

[55:34] Bronson Norris Murphy: Except for that, I cannot sing. I can't dance. I have zero theater background. I, you know, I, my knowledge is purely the writing and backstories and, and that is the extent of it, but it's what makes it fun. You know, if, if, if there's one truth in theater, it's, it's never too late. So I'm sure you can, I'm sure whatever you're lacking, you can learn in time.

[56:00] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I would, I, well, I also think, you know, this is where I, I just, you know, I need good people around me. I, I would just need the right experts in the industry to, to do this because I don't know a lot about everything else in theater, which is okay. I grew up going to sporting events and playing hockey and not the reverse. Like I didn't know about the 1998 movie until 2016. So, so, you know, you, you learn a lot of stuff late at points in your life and that's where, where I'm at today.

[56:30] Bronson Norris Murphy: Good for you. I mean, and here we are talking about "Cats" for an hour.

[56:34] Mike Abrams: Exactly. Well, this has been super fun. How can people stay in touch with you? Websites, social media? What's the best way to keep up with you?

[56:41] Bronson Norris Murphy: Social media is great. I'm at Bronson Biz, B-I-Z.

[56:44] Mike Abrams: Awesome. I'll link everything here. Bronson, thank you for coming on. This has been so fun and a blast to have you on to talk about "Cats" and "Phantom."

[56:52] Bronson Norris Murphy: Thank you. I'm, I'm going to put on the "Cats" overture right now.

[56:55] Mike Abrams: Get pumped up for the day.

[56:57] Bronson Norris Murphy: Yes.

[56:58] Mike Abrams: I love it. Well, thank you and thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of "The Wrong Cat Died," the podcast breakdown of the cat astrophe. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else. Listen to podcasts, follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at TheWrongCatDied or check out our website, thewrongcatdied.com.