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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia ARIBO, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpn.fm to discover more.

[0:27] Mike Abrams: wrong cat tied the podcast. Breaks on the cast atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have two amazing guests. These are two actors who have done all kinds of stuff on TV, movies and theaters and a bunch of other things. And I met one of the two of these guests at broadwaycon this year, and we chatted about a cats parody video that they did, which I am very excited to dig into. So welcome Jamie Levitt and John Madison. Thank you both for joining me.

[0:51] Speaker 2: Meow, meow, meow, I

[0:54] Mike Abrams: am excited because I at Broadway con, it was such a wild thing as most people have no idea who I am, but they know that I know cat like they knew the podcast and cats, and so we were chatting and chatting on sudden, you're like, Oh, I did a cat's parody, and then you showed me the video. You sent it to me, and it is hilarious. So I want to get to the video, but I want to actually start with that was sparked by the 2019 movie, right? So that was like, when you I think sometime before then, but what was your cat's experience prior to that? Like, see it as kids, Were you familiar? Like, how, how deep into the theater world of cats are you?

[1:31] Speaker 3: Well, so I have no actual date for reference, but I saw it as a child. Live on Broadway, and I all, I remember, because of my impressionable mind at the time. I remember the like, the cats crawling on the mezzanine. We were in the we were not in the orchestra. We were up in the mezzanine. I remember I was like, probably the first Romans, because I remember a cat crawled by me. And I thought that was cool, that there was a show that had a cat crawling around the theater. And then I also remember thinking that there was a spaceship, or there was Aliens, because a lot of the sounds sound like spaceships landing. I had no idea it was on, yeah, but that's my that was my first introduction to cats, which was somewhere in the late 90s. Um, maybe, okay.

[2:25] Mike Abrams: And this is, I don't want to out your age here, but give me a range like this. I am under 10 old. Was this under 10 teenager? Like, what general age

[2:35] Speaker 3: range I would have? It probably would have been under or around 10. Is that how math works? Right? Yeah, yeah,

[2:42] Mike Abrams: sure, sure, that sounds about right. I'm asking because, and I know we briefly spoke about this before we started recording, but I don't think children should see this show, and so I feel like I have no one here that agrees with me, so I want to make sure we tackle that. And Jonathan, you saw it also as a child? Yeah,

[2:57] Speaker 2: I probably saw, I was I saw a touring company in Lawrence, Kansas, and they also crawled to the audience. I think I had an aisle seat, so I think I saw, I might have seen Rum Tum Tugger face right up club to mine. And he, like, comes up and goes, like, no, no, he's gonna grab me. But, and then I I saw, yeah, I must have been like, 15 or something. And then I, when I was in high school, my show choir went on a cruise ship, and the cruise ship had a resident cats cast that did, yeah, they did, like a a cat's medley, sort of, you know, it was like a truncated version of the show. And then they did, like a talk back with us afterwards. I was like, Whoa, so cool. And then, yeah, I was, I love that you saw 18.

[3:54] Mike Abrams: I love that you saw the I think it's the Oasis of the Seas. I've talked to a few people have done it. It's run for like, 15 years on this cruise ship. Wow. And it has now evolved to be a 90 minute, not a mission show, because it turns out, when people don't pay to see a show in a cruise ship, and you sing half of memory at the end of Act One, they don't come back for act two, thinking it's over, so they had to adjust. So I'm it's really cool that you got to see a version of that. Yeah. Did you you're you are a cat. You are in the cats fan, though, man, wow, the elite level I have to be. Did Did you notice a difference from the first and second time you saw it as you were older?

[4:34] Speaker 2: I didn't. No, I don't think so. I think the biggest difference I noticed it was the second one. Was the one of the cruise ship was definitely shorter, and they didn't have as they didn't have all the interactions with the audience. But I don't remember any other differences other than that. It

[4:50] Mike Abrams: didn't pick up all the different sexual parts that should go over child's head that are very aggressively put in your face as an adult, they

[4:57] Speaker 2: definitely went over my head. And until. Later. It was only later that I realized that that there was an orgy in the show. Also I realized, you know, I, coincidentally, I also saw a term production of rent around the same time, and that also has sort of an orgy in the show and in both in both times, I was completely oblivious. This is not just fine,

[5:19] Speaker 3: and I saw it as a child. And I will also say, since memory has been brought up, I grew up singing at the piano with my dad. He had a big fake book of tons of musical theater songs, and as that 10 year old child, we I sang memory, having no idea what I what it was from, or what it all meant, but that was like, that's one of the songs that I know so well in my core, simply because I've been singing it since I was a child, which makes no sense, but my dad liked it, and he was like, Hey, come sing this song. And it was like, I even think we performed it on a cruise ship talent show as like a father daughter. Whoa. Wow. Really strange.

[6:04] Speaker 3: I don't remember. And to be quite honest, it's not about winning. It's about

[6:14] Mike Abrams: Show is like, Oh, everybody has fun. I got it. Yes, yes, yes. I love that. Yeah, I still matter. It was the only song I knew in the show as well. When it went, I don't I didn't know it was in the show. It was like, Oh, I know this song. When all of a sudden they start singing, and I realized it is my mom is a music teacher. She plays piano, and the tuner uses that uses memory as the song after he's done to make sure it's tuned. And I never piece that together until after I've been doing this podcast, and I was home during COVID, and all sudden, the guy tuned the piano. I'm like, Oh, he's playing memory. Does he know that? Like, I'm here, like, Is this for me? Nope, turns out that's the song he plays. So that's, that's, that's really cool. So you got to sing it growing up with little family moment

[6:54] Speaker 3: with absolutely no context or reasoning or understanding. Why? Know what

[6:58] Mike Abrams: the song's about? Yeah? Which a lot of, lot of cats moments. Okay, so I want to talk about your YouTube video. This is, how do I say it? Spanatomy,

[7:09] Speaker 2: yeah, little flash in the pan, like the reliable

[7:13] Mike Abrams: cat, and it is a Macavity parody. So walk me through. I'm assuming the movie sparked it. The trailer for the movie sparked it. Walk me through how you came up with the idea and then decided to shoot this hilarious video. Jamie, I

[7:31] Speaker 2: I think we, yeah, I think we were improvising or something in rehearsal, right? Yeah.

[7:38] Speaker 3: Some of those things were like, if you think too hard about the rhyme or reason behind it, I feel like, like cats, it becomes, it becomes so complicated, it it's, it was born out of a joke. I feel like, I think I couldn't remember the name of Macavity. I was like, what's that one cat that they sing about? Yeah, me. Or something like, I literally couldn't remember macavities name, because their names are all so they're ridiculous, ridiculously complicated. Yeah, I really think that that was the seed of the idea. Truly came from like a WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT one cat with the spooky song? And it just became like, what would be the complete opposite of a cat? That's like, Macavity,

[8:25] Speaker 2: yeah. But I remember, I remember you were improvid. I think, I think a lot of us laughed because you, because you said SP, and then I think you were also trying to sing the song. And you were like, Who's that coming around the corner? Speed, Atomy. And then, yeah, and then, and then you had the idea to make the, make a parody video out of it.

[8:49] Mike Abrams: And at this point, like, where are you? This is pre COVID, right? Like, you're so are you? Like, were you working on a show together? Like, how did this? Like, I love. The idea is hilarious, and then the execution was, was amazing. It's like, I just wanted to know more about the journey of how you went from this seated idea that moment, to what you actually put on YouTube that now has 1000s of views.

[9:14] Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, it's totally an inside joke taken too far, which is one of my favorite, just the commitment to it. I think there's no one commits quite like John Madison. And we were working on a show together called Black Friday at the time, and I'll preface this with you know, cats was in the zeitgeist. Everyone was really excited about the release of the new movie. And John, I mean, I want you to kind of have your moment in this, in the sun with this, but, like John, became very obsessed, ironically or very sincerely, with cats coming out. And, yeah, if you want to talk about, talk to that,

[9:54] Speaker 2: I thought it would just, I thought it'd be fun to do a sort of a cats countdown, where I would. Every for 30 days, until the day cats movie came out, I would make up facts about all of the different cats that became increasingly more and more ridiculous until I eventually was like, making up, like the shopping cart cat, or like it was making up cats towards, like, the actual release of the show, which, you know, I wasn't invited to the premiere, and I, you know, I am not hurt. I am over it by now. But I did get a basket in the mail. So okay, cats, did send me. You wanted to be noticed, pro shoot out. Yeah,

[10:44] Speaker 3: you wanted to be chosen to go to the Haven. Set, like you I did. It's the parallels here. Yeah,

[10:50] Mike Abrams: what? What were some of your countdown leading up, cats, what do you remember from those? No idea.

[10:56] Speaker 2: I'm gonna look it up. Can we find? Yeah,

[11:01] Speaker 3: he changed his Twitter account. I remember this to John catison. That's right, and that was a big deal. So

[11:07] Mike Abrams: you went all in from this trailer to the the lead up of it. So yeah, you might, you might be the other person. I feel like I also was that version. I ended up with this podcast because of that, like I did leading up to the movie. I did episodes with each week for a different cat, of like, oh my God, who you need to what do you need to know about Macavity? If you've never seen this, this play and you're gonna go see this crazy movie. And that was how that was the genesis of this show was also leading up to it. So I wish it would have crossed paths in 2017 we could have, like, collaborated here because I knew nothing like you at least, have seen the show a couple times. You were a fan. You were committed to the bit. I was watching the 1998 movie on YouTube clips trying to figure out who was who, and whatever I could piece together from the internet and the fandom. Internet is all over the place, intense. There's a lot, there's a lot there. It's a lot of inconsistencies. There's a lot of strong opinions, but inconsistent opinions. And so I ended up with just like, how would I interpret this? I kind of always joke. I'm from Indiana. I was like, if my family in Indiana, or my friends who have never seen cats, because it's, you know, rolled through there a couple times over the years, but I would assume the majority of them who aren't Theater People are not going to be like, Oh, I know everything I was like before you go see the move, just listen to this 10 episodes and you'll be good to go. That was kind of my goal. And here we are 120 plus episodes later, with me talking to cast members from all over the world and fans and people who've done all kinds of crazy stuff related to it. So I also took took a joke a little too far. All right. Well, it looks like you found it seems like, well, on some of your your clients,

[12:46] Speaker 2: I'm looking I'm trying to find my old tweets, but it only go back until 2021, so I think, I think those tweets are gone. Wow. Does anyone

[12:54] Speaker 3: know? I mean, you've talked to so many people. Does anyone really, truly know what this show is about, or do you think everyone just pretends to like, think they know? Like, I don't know that anyone knows. I don't know that Andrew Lloyd Webber even knew. Does it matter?

[13:09] Mike Abrams: I think Percy Cartwright and Trevor Nunn and that's it, and everyone else has some idea. I've compared it to a lot of things, but the biggest comparison, I think, is it's like, it's a little bit like Harry Potter, if you took the plot out, like, we built this world that's kind of weird and crazy, and no one knows what to do with it, and there's a lot of like, new characters, and they all interact in some way. It's a little incestuous in some cases. But there's not a straight plot line, and that's where, as someone who loves sitcoms, this was like the worst show for me to watch, because it's the opposite of that. It's like, we're not going to give you a lot of closure or any idea of what you're watching. It's really centered around dance. And I'm also not a performer, not a singer, yeah, well, drugs would help. I feel like if I would have saw it with drugs, it would help you understand it better. But I didn't. I went to a matinee, like, randomly on a rainy Saturday, and so I was completely sober, didn't know what I was going into, and had to try to interpret Leona Lewis singing memory as a, you know, late 20s adult trying to, trying to solve, solve the world's problems here. But, yeah, it's, it's a weird like, there's a loose plot, like, there's a loose art that you have, but it's a dark plot. When you really dig into it, it's like the grizzly Bell the main character ish, left her cult that she was a part of to go do some bad things. And then there's one cult leader who potentially could be a serial killer comes in, is going to murder one of them at the end, maybe it's a positive thing, maybe it's a negative thing. They have a big orgy in the middle, and then they kill one. And that's the pretty much the story in 30 seconds. So it is kind of strange. It's an easy punchline. It's an easy joke, because it is so weird. But at the same time, if you're. Performer. It's like, you get to do this, like, amazing choreography from either Jillian Lynn or Andy blanken, like two very well known like people, and you get to sing some of these iconic songs. If you're me in the audience, I'm like, oh, there's cats around me that's scaring the living daylights out of me. And then I'm watching what clearly looks like two people about to do it on stage, and then one being, it seems sacrificed from a cult. So I kind of watched the same thing. Like, what world did we just put together? Like, how did you come up with this as the option? Yeah, it was the 70s and 80s. So I think the answer was drugs. Yeah.

[15:34] Speaker 3: I mean, even as an actor, being in cats, I would imagine it's very indulgent. You get to, like, have your moment where you tell the world what kind of cat you are like, it's very much like you get your moment to shine. And I think it's, I'm sure I every actor who has played all of the different cats, probably, you know, has a bit of a like, main character complex, like, there's a sense of, like, they're all kind of the star of their own universe.

[16:07] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah. How would you explain the plot? If you were asked, like, Hey, I'm gonna go see the Royal Caribbean version tomorrow, or the tour, or it's an overseas right now, what would you tell your friends? Like, here's what you're gonna see. Either one of you who's got the plot? Well,

[16:22] Speaker 2: yeah, no, I mean, I would say that, you know it was, I would tell my friends this was originally a book for children that in the 70s, which turned into a musical where each cat describes who they are, what they are and why, to some sort of mystical God leader, um, who they have a competition where each of them, uh, where someone is going to be sent to a mysterious place that they call the heavy side layer. I don't think it's heaven. I think they are just straight up killing this person, this cat. And I don't think, I think, I mean, I think we have a little bit of an unreliable narrator in monkey strap. So I think, yeah, I just, I do. I truly think that Old Deuteronomy is just getting rid of cats that he wants to get rid of.

[17:15] Mike Abrams: It's, that's a, that's a deeper explanation than I am, buddy, yeah,

[17:20] Speaker 3: I was gonna say this is like this the musical. Here's some cats. Here's what they're all about. You know, they love beauty, they love dancing, they love different things. They hate other things. And they're ultimately having an orgy and trying to have a an a cool contest. It who's gonna out cool the other cat? Like, who's the coolest cat? There it is.

[17:46] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I did see Leona Lewis. I did feel like it was a singing petition. Like, that was my frame of reference, because of her as Grizabella, that it felt like chorus liney. Or, you know, like a X Factor version of what you could be, or the modern version is it could be like six, where it's like, we're competing for who has it worse and who needs to to win because of that. But at the same frame of reference, I'm like, that's a very strange thing. Where it's like, instead of a million dollars or a Vegas show, you get to die, yeah, like, like you or or be reborn, if you want to make it a little bit more positive, like, you get a a new life, a new lease on life. But well, if you think about it, weird, weird way to think about it,

[18:29] Speaker 3: I had a thought, just as you were saying that, like, so as a a pet owner, like, I think the world of my dog, and I just think she's the best in the world. And I could, I could come up with a million songs about who she is and what she likes and her place in the world. And like, I could argue the case that she is the best girl in the world. And I feel like, as a cat owner, they're like the cats in cats kind of fall relative, relatively into like, the archetypal cat of all of the cats. And so I feel like it's almost like you're arguing your case for, like, my kind of cat, the cat that my pet is most like, is the best pet there is, and it's but,

[19:14] Mike Abrams: but do you you don't want your dog to be sacrificed? Do you like, that's the part that makes it weird. It's like, I agree with that. Like, hey, here's why I'm great, here's more about me, and here's our quirkiness that is different, and this is why my dog or my cat's different. But it's like, Okay, now that you've won, we're gonna get rid of

[19:32] Speaker 3: you. But I feel like it's it's getting another chance at life, like it's being reborn. I don't see it as a dark I don't see the ending as as dark, maybe I'm

[19:42] Speaker 2: Do either of you believe there's any merit to like the the theory that it's that all of the cats are currently dead, and that it's that they're going to like from Purgatory to heaven, because some of the lyrics talk about what they all look some of the lyrics refer to cats in. Past tense, like this cat was, I'm not sure which ones, but some of the I know, like, I think, Jenny, any dots they prefer to Jen, any dots in the past tense.

[20:13] Mike Abrams: So this is, I love, how deep you went in 2019 clearly, to all these things. So you're, I have heard this before is that they are in between, like, they're all already dead, and it's like, the next layer. I've heard there's a lot of very dark, like, theories that could go there. Like, there's also that that Old Deuteronomy is purely just a serial killer. There's like, yeah, some other, like, I believe, cultish type of things. But I kind of love that, that you're thinking, like, all right, they're all already dead. Let's and one is gonna get, like, go to the next stage of

[20:48] Speaker 2: and cats are supposed to have nine lives. Maybe this is, like, the in between the nine lives. That's a more, slightly more positive than what I really believe about older Deuteronomy. But, uh, yeah, that could be, that could be it.

[21:00] Mike Abrams: It is interesting. I the thing about this is there are really no right or wrong answers. Well, there could be like, someone could come in and just be like, there's, there's not. But most of it, I don't think, was published. I firmly believe that when they made the show, the part that I have dug into most, which is the like, where did Grizabella go when she left? You know, like, I think they thought that detail. I don't think they decided to write the, like, other subscripts of these characters that didn't need to be said. I think they focused on the choreography and, like, here's just the loose piece of what you need to do. And I think the fans have taken it 1000 times further, and that's where there is inconsistencies. That's where the theories come from. So I I'm for all of them. I'm I'm really for all of them, just because I think it's hilarious that this whole that they've created all these characters, but they're all cats. They all have the craziest names, and nobody knows. And it's like, but this has been running for 42 years, like it's been running forever. And so much of theater right now, especially is coming up and down. It's like, very quick, and to get something to sustain is almost impossible. And you've got a show about cats, where they kill one at the end with an origin the middle. That is one of the longest running things ever. It's just hilarious to me. But I want to hear what other theories you have, because John said especially, it sounds like you've dug into some other ones, like, what other plot theories do you have, or thoughts do you have on the different cats of the show? Well,

[22:22] Speaker 2: I prepared for this podcast because I wanted to have some answers, but I don't know if I'm am I? Am I going out of order by saying which cat I think should die? Should I say,

[22:33] Mike Abrams: let's save that? It's the last question. But I already know you're not gonna say Grizz about so we're now already having strong momentum my

[22:42] Speaker 2: I mean, I think those my two, those are my two favorite theories about that. It might be that they might be in purgatory or somewhere in between lives. I think that's my favorite positive theory, because cats are legendary. They have nine lives. So that is like a positive leaning theory, as opposed to my other one. I also like the idea that some cats might secretly be other cats, because cats are supposed to have multiple names. Who's to say that their secret, more dignified name is also like Mungo Jerry and rumble teaser. You know what I mean. Do you

[23:23] Mike Abrams: have any thoughts on who might overlap?

[23:27] Speaker 2: Well, hmm, there was the one show where Old Deuteronomy was also Macavity. But I don't, I don't know, because

[23:37] Mike Abrams: there's a lot of, there's a couple split tracks, essentially, where the right play. So like Buster Jones and Gus, there's Play Doh and mccavity. There's a couple like that, but I never thought about that from an angle, like they're actually the same, the same cat with a different name. That's clever. What about JJ was just sitting there. No,

[24:01] Speaker 3: I want to go back to the idea of Macavity and Old Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy, like with the kidnapping like, how does that work? Is it just that it's an alter ego, or, like, how does Yeah, I'm just curious. I don't know.

[24:15] Mike Abrams: It's also very potentially his son, like McCabe, yeah, Tugger and monkey strap are supposed to be brothers and the children of Old Deuteronomy. So it is a little strange that it's like you're kidnapping your father. I firmly believe that they just wanted some conflict resolution, because there was so little plot in the show that it was a way to transition and give a little bit between getting to most athletes is a number, but it is a very weird part, and the movie didn't an even worse job of trying to figure that out. Like the movie made a very strange like whole barge piece that kind of pulled some stuff back to make the county even more villainous. But you know, when you pay that kind of money for you just out by you, you got to use them a little bit more.

[24:59] Speaker 2: Here's another parody pitch in the lyrics of Old Deuteronomy, they say many lives in succession. And Old Deuteronomy has three kids, so you could do a succession parody with Old Deuteronomy as Logan Roy, wow, his children. That's That's something for later, trying to Oh, you have a succession shirt on. I'm

[25:22] Mike Abrams: wearing a Logan Roy shirt. NASA, I don't know if you can't even see it, but yes, I that is great. There are some lyrics so that give me some some challenges. The one that bothers me most is Macavity has broken every human law, and that line alone makes me like, how far does that go? Like, yeah, has he murdered? Has he jaywalked? Has he done tax evasion? You know, like, has he done some of the stuff we don't want to say, like, there's every human law, is a a lot of things. So that line really has a lot, a lot of potential connotation. And there's a couple other ones in there, mixed in Old Deuteronomy. Has 90 to why? 99 wives and potentially more, basically, I threw something like that. So he's probably the father of all,

[26:12] Speaker 3: yeah, he's the baby daddy of all of the cats. Yeah,

[26:16] Mike Abrams: kitten So, and that's why the show is for children. Yeah, yes, this is why you should bring children to see. If,

[26:24] Speaker 3: let's see, I really don't think it's I mean as a child, as someone who saw cats as a child, I really, I don't think you should hide children from seeing the show, because the show is true. Open ended, I would. I actually am curious to hear what a child perceives of the show, because they might have insight that as adults, we are so jaded we're not even seeing so, like, totally, bring it on. There's way sexier stuff out there. It's like a nice I don't know. I think it's part of life. I think, I think it should be required viewing for humans.

[26:58] Mike Abrams: Rated. Did you okay? So you didn't get invited to the the premiere, but you got those? No, I didn't. I was the auction in your in your theater.

[27:07] Speaker 2: I saw one, one in a very full theater, and then one in a very empty theater, and the full theater was like, I think, was the day after it came out, and or two days after it came out. And it was very, very fun. It felt like it felt like a rocky, horror kind of scenario where everyone was yelling and cheering, when at certain points I

[27:28] Mike Abrams: saw the day after the premiere. I also was not invited to premiere. I was invited to a pre screening, and that was all people that were press, relatives, family, friends. I was like, what I would call a pro cats crowd, wow. And a few minutes in, people start hysterically laughing at parts that aren't supposed to be funny. And that was my like, Oh, this is gonna be interesting. Like, this is gonna be an experience. If this crowd is reacting this way, then I can't wait for Friday when it opens. Also, I think I saw one of the ones when it was not finished, because, like, I don't think he actually finished the premiere one, there was, like, some Judy Dench, just hand and a couple other stuff.

[28:10] Speaker 3: Oh yes, with the ring. But yeah, I saw it in empty movie theater. It was me and my my friend Paul, and it what? It made it all the more it was a total out of body experience, because already It's so wild to behold and then to be in a humongous theater, and the sound is like echoing through the space, and we were just alone in the middle of this theater. It it was truly, I felt like I just left my body, and I was like, I questioning my exist. It was, it just felt like I was like, is this made just for me in this moment? And like he was just thinking about that was chilling. And then to add to that, I realize now that was the last movie I saw before the pandemic, and so that experience to then carry over and and that was like my memory of a movie experience was chilling to enter the pandemic. And subsequent two years, yeah,

[29:16] Mike Abrams: I think it was the last movie I saw in theaters as well. And then the last thing I saw before I left New York was I saw Diana as a at the musical, like a day, like at the point where we were like, should we even be here? Type of day? But yeah, I went. And then I ended up flying out of New York for work and getting stuck. So that was, but yeah, it was. It was a wild time. It was. I heard a lot of friends that went and were in empty theaters. I did not hear many that went, unless you went like again day one and you were clearly part of the like you were there because you were the audience. It was a lot of, yeah, empty or not, not too packed of a crowd. It did not do, did not do the 100. Million dollars they spent on it, I believe.

[30:01] Speaker 2: I that's really, it's, it's sort of sad. I wish it had. I mean, I know, like the I have, I had criticisms, I guess, of the movie, but I like how much attention that they put into choreographing it, and how much energy the cast had about the release. Yeah, I wish it had done better, just for the future of musicals, filmed musicals. But,

[30:30] Mike Abrams: yeah, I still, I still actually believe there's a good movie somewhere unedited, like uncut, because I they had such amazing performers and actors and all this stuff was actually I, I just couldn't watch the choreography because of the way he, he jumped, cuts across everything. I couldn't follow, like, the twins, who are really, really talented, and Victoria, how are, like, they were really, really cold. And crowds are really talented people in this, this movie, and it just was so weirdly edited. And then it also became a running joke. So I agree with you. I do wish it had a different I think there was a different outcome for it, because everyone disassociated themselves with it so quickly after it started to kind of fall, that it kind of got became the running joke versus it could have been a good movie, and they did some smart things, because there is no narrator and taking there's no spoken word on the musical version, and to have a spoken word Narrator kind of guiding you through Victoria's lens, I actually think is a fairly smart way to tell it as a movie, to, like, bring people through the journey of, like, what is this kind of weird musical? So I thought they actually added the story you needed, but it just was not well put together. Yeah,

[31:40] Speaker 3: I kind of think I'm honestly glad that it wasn't great. Like, I think that that's exactly what it needed, because it gave me hope for, like, real storytelling. And like, yeah, it's kind of nice. Like, I go, like, it's weird and it made no sense. And like, I'm it shows you what happens when people just say yes to things. And like, the world sometimes just makes ridiculous things for no reason. And it's nice. I feel like Jennifer Coolidge said this recently in an interview, but it was something like, it's nice when there's like, insane kind of shitty stuff out there, because it reminds you that, like, you can create good things. And so it's just nice to be like people just said yes to this thing, and we all just agreed. All these celebrities got behind it, and it wasn't necessarily great, but that's okay. It can be, it can be, it can be fun, yeah, so it can just be fun and dumb and delightful. Good

[32:37] Mike Abrams: has come out of it. Look your your YouTube video this, this conversation doesn't happen without that movie in any capacity. And so we can at least claim that I

[32:47] Speaker 2: had the opportunity. I really regret this, but I had the opportunity to watch the on the on the movie without all of the green screen effects. Wow, because someone who worked at the at the company, but, and I wouldn't all, I cannot say who, but I, you know, it was around the time of the like the pant It was winter that pandemic. I just didn't right before the pandemic. I didn't see it, but I wish I had that was a huge missed opportunity. I think you should retrack out and see if there's still, hey, do you still have a copy? Yeah,

[33:24] Speaker 4: I'm sure you do somewhere. That's not

[33:28] Speaker 3: commitment. It's like, I just love that. Studios, actors, people just committed to telling this story and like, even like, that's why seeing the green screen cut must have been so cool, because you just see everyone fully going all out, even without the benefit of CGI. How cool that humans agreed to do this.

[33:53] Mike Abrams: Every time I see I saw the tour this year with the I did a video with them and went and saw them, and I met all them before, not in costume, like, I met a bunch of them, we did interviews or chatting, and it's like, oh yeah, by the way, you're about to go put on the guitar and put up all this makeup, and you're about to crawl over the floor, and that's like, theater, you know? It's like, it's just they're performers, and they're really talented actors. And it was so such a bizarre piece, because, like, especially as I've met more, I'm like, This is the weirdest thing to do. It's like, man, it's probably actually not. There's so many other weird shows. There's all kinds like, it's just, it's art, and it's art in a very unique way. And I think that's what does make it fun and funny. I also love that people are okay with the humor of that. Like that, it's okay to make fun of the fact that the names are ridiculous and the story is ridiculous, and some of this stuff is like, the conversations that they're having on tour, on a bus, are absurd, if you think about it, and so they recognize that, and that makes it fun.

[34:49] Speaker 3: It's for dancers especially, it must be wonderful. Oh, yeah, I don't even dance. What a fun character. A lot of the dancers

[34:57] Mike Abrams: saw the 98 movie growing up, and it was. Like they did a they did in dance class, and they, like, watched then their schools growing up. And I didn't know that that existed either until I watched it. I think I was telling this Jay, but I the first time I ever watched the 1998 movie was on a work trip, on a plane, on an iPad. So I could not have looked more out of place. I was, like, in business casual with very, like, a lot of like, very clear consultants sitting around you, all of them, like, hammering away their their PowerPoints and stuff. And I had an iPad in front of me sitting on the on the table tray, and had cats the 1998 movie playing, and just like headphones in, bopping around. Like, don't, don't mind me. But like, everyone is like, I had multiple people looking over my shoulder, being like, why is he watching this? Like, is he really watching this? So that was my first 1998 movie interaction, which is again, very different than the the children who saw it in school, growing up or in some other capacity.

[35:53] Speaker 2: I like to imagine that some of your like, corporate like, your co workers, like, lean over and be like, Oh, great. I love that version of the film, like, just really, really huge

[36:06] Mike Abrams: yeah. I mean, we have some, we have some, a lot of theater people. We have a nice group chat going with Broadway in general, happening where people have have thrown out some hot takes and have riled up some people. But we haven't talked too much about cats recently, because it's not, you know, it's not, you know, it's not really running as much right now, or at least in New York. We're gonna take a quick break, and then we'll be back for more of the wrong cat died. I want to talk about some of the other things you're currently working on. And so let's start with Professor birthday. So Jamie, tell me a little bit about that project, because I listened to all of them already, and I'm, oh my gosh, it's amazing and hilarious. Oh well,

[36:44] Speaker 3: that's very kind. There are no cats in it. Unfortunately, it's it is not, it is not my idea. And I will give full credit of the character, and like the creation of that character. To my dear friend Eric congale, who actually wrote a book. There's a book that is so brilliant, and it's a companion piece. It was actually started before the podcast, but he really created this whole universe and magical world, creating this character of Professor birthday, who is essentially the mascot of birthdays. And, you know, we think of someone like Santa Claus. Santa Claus works one maybe two days a year. And meanwhile, birthdays happen every single day, and this woman is working constantly around the clock. She doesn't have time to take a vacation. And because of this, no one knows who she is, so she's truly overworked and under recognized. And he has built an entire universe based around this place where she works, which is called birthday University, which is much like another magical place we have heard of. It is where birthdays are created. So yes, Eric created this character, wrote the book, and I was very and I'm still very honored to get to voice this, this character,

[38:11] Mike Abrams: and it is a podcast musical, so like, you're singing songs for it, and you're having a blast. It's hilarious. I hope people are doing, and then you've also created this incredible Tik Tok, or there's a Tiktok related to it that is animated the character. And has, I have really enjoyed some of the memes too, that you've kind of made. The the one where somebody took the Tiktok search bar and, like, ripped into into it, you're having a blast, like, it's just so funny. So it's been really fun to watch, like creative content related to musical theater on a different forum.

[38:47] Speaker 3: Well, thank you. Yeah, it was, it's the book started. Then we decided to record the podcast, and we have all those musical podcast episodes, and music is written by our dear friend Clark backstresser. And essentially, the the Tiktok was never supposed to be a thing. It was just that we had all of these audio files from the podcast, and we had released the podcast episodes, and because we had an animated version of the character, we were like, what if we essentially animate some clips from the podcast into these little mini Tiktok animations, and it has taken on a life of its own on Tiktok, and we're all kind of figuring out how Tiktok works as we go. So if anyone knows the answer to how to Tiktok, please let us know, because we're figuring it out. And that's nobody part of the fun of it. Nobody knows, but yeah, it's been delightful, and we're literally figuring it out as we're sitting here. Eric just just texted me because I think we're about to reach 50,000 subscribers, and he's like, I have an idea for something to do, like, can we hop on the phone and we'll just improvise stuff that Professor birthday would say? So in in a few moments, I'll have to run and record something that'll who knows what. It'll be but we're figuring it out on the fly.

[40:03] Mike Abrams: I Who, who would you compare? I love always comparing shows which cat most relates to Professor birthday. Oh, I have thought about this a lot today, and I've yet to land on what I think is the right answer. But I have a couple couple thoughts. I

[40:19] Speaker 3: you know, my instinct was to say, like, Grizabella because she wants to be respected, but like, Professor birthday doesn't have a history necessarily, of being known or being appreciated. And so I almost Gosh. I feel like maybe Um, Mr. Most awfully is just because he's magical. And like, he's not really a main character. I mean, no one's really a main character. They're or they're all main characters in their own story. But he's got this magic. He's got the charm. And yet the story is still focused on Grizabella and others. And like, you're like, what about this guy? He was fun. He does it a lot of magic tricks. So that's my instinct. I don't know. What are your thoughts? I

[41:08] Mike Abrams: like that. I thought bound by arena, just because the second episode was like, Ah, we're gonna ignore the first one. And then there's like, this, like the episode about princesses versus clowns and all that. It's like a very much a confidence, but a in a in a way of where I'm not the main character, I'm not the center of it, even though they are. And I feel like MoM value are gonna, kind of protects the meter, and there's like, a little bit of like, No, we're gonna do this this way, like there's a confidence there. So that was kind of where my head went. But it cats doesn't always tie perfectly to most things. It's just fun to try. It's been fun to

[41:44] Speaker 3: itself either. So yeah, that's part of the fun.

[41:48] Mike Abrams: I love it. And John, you're, you're doing more on YouTube right now. And,

[41:53] Speaker 2: yes, yeah. And I was, I was a part of a musical that's going to be coming out later this fall called nerdy prudes must die. I don't we. I don't know the exact date, but it'll be coming out sometime later this year, possibly the fall, but I think it's going to be, it's certainly the, the best time I've ever had on stage, and I think, I think it'll be a really, really wonderful show. Yeah, I thought it's really talented people. And I played an Well, I played a nerd who I can't say anything but things that things happen, and sorry, trying hard not to reveal any spoilers, although probably, if you know anything about the show, you already know the plot, but it is a the music is great. The story is great. The performance is all excellent. One of the guys who was the bully in the show was now BIP on, and back to the musical on Broadway. Will Branner, who's he's really, really great. So, yeah, I'm very, very excited for the release. Awesome. Yeah, that'll be on star kids channel sometime later this year. Amazing.

[43:04] Mike Abrams: Well, we'll link everything that we can in the in the notes, so people can find you and all the stuff you're doing and all the cool things. I

[43:11] Speaker 2: also had my my pick for Professor birthdays, cat, I think would be, I was thinking monkey strap. I don't know if everyone is okay with that pick, just because monkey strap feels like and Professor birthday even feels like, very congenial and warm and like, explains a lot of things for the both the cats and people watching the show, yeah, um, who's like main character, the leader of the cats, but also not like the top cat sort of

[43:46] Speaker 3: character is like a skimble shank. So I was like, keeping everybody on schedule, yeah, yeah. So what cat are you most like? John? I want to know me. Yeah. Do you? Who do you like at your core? This

[44:00] Speaker 2: I mostly identify with spadano me. I didn't make the cut in the show. Or Pomplamoose, the anime cat who loves anime.

[44:12] Mike Abrams: Are these all the 30 days leading up people you've added?

[44:15] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that was one of them. I found some of the other tweets. One was nine days till cats movie, and because I did all these this countdown, and today's cat is that moment before a thunderstorm in the middle of a field, you can feel that electricity starting to build in the air, and you just stand and listen to the silent sound of nature hiding and waiting for destruction to strike. And the role was taken over by Matthew Broderick. Broderick in the early 2000s

[44:42] Mike Abrams: How did they not invite you to the premiere? The promotion you did? I

[44:46] Speaker 2: got a basket, though, with cheese and fruit. What was in it? Think, salami,

[44:55] Speaker 3: not even like a like some catnip or like a jingle bell on a stick. Yeah.

[44:59] Mike Abrams: No, they, they did have cat ears at the the press one. And that was it unbelievable, like, one picture to take. And now and then, it was just a normal Theater in New York like that. Somebody

[45:09] Speaker 3: from the PR team just went to the grocery store, and they're like, just

[45:12] Speaker 2: buy this guy's home. Buy this guy's shouting and hollering about it. I just send him

[45:19] Mike Abrams: anything. Yeah, that's that is, that is, uh, almost, that's incredible in itself, like, the commitment to to it. They couldn't I found

[45:29] Speaker 2: out T shirt, call them out. I think I was like, Hey, I heard other people were getting promo things. Mind you, not gonna. And then I think, wow, um,

[45:45] Speaker 2: the gift. It was very, it was a very round Tum Tugger moment, um, although, when I got the basket, I felt like, oh, Jenny, any dots. Um, but uh, also we, we didn't talk about the prank that you pulled on me during, during the show. Jamie. We did not train the rehearsal, Dream rehearsal of Black Friday. I was doing these, this stupid cats countdown, and trying to come up with, like, what I was going to do the next day. And then I got this weird email, and it was a cease and desist letter. Then it looked extremely official, and I was worried that, like I was gonna get sued, but

[46:35] Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sorry you were so into it. John was so he was just living and breathing cats. And I just wanted to just scare him a little bit, because I think it was right around the time when you were like, the account's not responding to me, like they're sending gift bags that, like, you were starting to like, and I think I just wanted to like, bring you back down to earth a little bit and just be like, Don't poke the bear, or, in this case, to the sun, to just give me a little spook. Yeah,

[47:02] Speaker 2: I was like, posting too many, and now I'm becoming just Icarus lines,

[47:08] Mike Abrams: and so you have this fake season that says how and you freaked out. Probably of a I was delete my Twitter. I thought

[47:16] Speaker 2: I was like, should I delete the tweets? Should I delete Twitter? And then Jamie said, No, this was me. I'm sorry.

[47:23] Mike Abrams: I love I love it too. It's like, universal is coming. And then that's when they shipped you the basket, actually, after they heard about, yeah, that was, that's right, yeah, that was the apology. It

[47:32] Speaker 2: was a nice basket. It was, like, a great basket, but, like, it was a, it was like, a nice pack. Yeah,

[47:37] Mike Abrams: we should. We got to be, be positive, so Otherwise, they'll never send us anything ever again? So it was great. Send more please. Yeah, I

[47:43] Speaker 2: would, I would use some. I would take more cheese and salami and pears.

[47:48] Mike Abrams: Let's, let's do some rapid fire before we get to the final question. So okay, if you were in cats, who would you want to play? Which cat would you want to be?

[48:07] Speaker 2: They have probably the best song. It's

[48:12] Mike Abrams: the only one I remember the first time I saw it, I also figured out why is because it's one of the only times that there's only the two of them on stage. Like every other time there's like, 8000 things going on. It's a little bit of a sensory overload. But that song and Macavity are the only times worth, like, really, just two cats singing. So those are the two songs I remember the time I saw it. But also they just repeat it over and over and over again. So it's, it's fun. It's a

[48:36] Speaker 3: great Kenny dots also gets to, like, sing and dance with cockroaches, and I feel like I do that all the time in my bathroom. That's just New York for you. It's just being in New York sleeping, you know, being lazy and then hanging out with the cockroaches. I

[48:52] Speaker 2: know this is rapid fire, but why did they change? Did you know why they changed that song for the movie Jenny?

[49:01] Mike Abrams: So original, okay, and I'm not a fan of the original. That was the British original version. And then the one that I think we all know is the current version. But the difference, like, even the 98 or the soundtrack doesn't have rumpelser singing at all, and it was because it just depends on if they had a, you know, actress or actor, like either one, that could sing. So most of the time now, they both sing and dance and they do the animals. But yeah, it's a British version, and it's a complaint I heard from a lot of people that do not like that, that version of Michael J ripple, teaser, wow. I personally don't, but I also like this because I only knew one, and it was a song I enjoyed. So, yeah, change one of the one of the things I enjoyed. All right, who John, who would you be?

[49:46] Speaker 2: I think I would want to be monkey strap or narrator, just because I think they do the I'm not an excellent dancer. I'm not a very good dancer. So I think, I think that just. Has more only does monkey strap do a lot of dancing, or is it mostly singing and narrow that he dances a lot

[50:06] Mike Abrams: and stuff. So if you want to not dance, you gotta be bus free. Jones and Gus probably have probably the least dancing. Or Old Deuteronomy doesn't dance great.

[50:17] Speaker 2: I don't want to be Old Deuteronomy. I There's too much associated with that character. I don't think I too negative, too negative. So I would, I would be guess, or in this universe, I'd be an amazing dancer and be monchery. I was gonna

[50:27] Mike Abrams: say, we can suspend. Believe that, because I can't do any of this. I can't sing, I can't dance. So like, if you ignore that, forget gender, forget anything. Just which, who would you want to go on for one day as

[50:38] Speaker 2: well? If I, if I could do, if I could do all the moves, gimbal, Shanks, I think, okay,

[50:43] Mike Abrams: I love it. I really can have the train built for you. Um, what are your favorite and least favorite characters in the show? Oh,

[50:54] Speaker 3: I do not like rum tongue. Tugger. He's entitled. Okay, he represents everything that like, just like entitled men. Like he can't be pleased. He's so full of himself. He like, he likes this, but he doesn't like that, but he like, it's like he wants to hang out with mice, but then he wants to be with a rat, like he can't make up his mind. But also, he's so pretentious. It's like, it's an energy that I just I want to shut it down. I want to burn it down, very much

[51:24] Mike Abrams: right? We're just gonna have to do a succession crossover at some point. I It's there. It's ready.

[51:31] Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't, I don't like Old Deuteronomy at all. Okay,

[51:35] Mike Abrams: so, Father, Son, what about who are your favorites?

[51:38] Speaker 3: Either? Probably Jenny any doubts, just because of her whole vibe is, like I was saying before. It's just a really relate to it.

[51:51] Speaker 2: I mccavity, I like, I think my favorite is, is skimble Shanks, or, or Manka strap. Skimble Shanks, seems like, I mean, I'm glad he gets his own song, because he feels like he's just really making sure everybody gets gets to where they need to go, across, I mean, across all of, all of London and, yeah, he's the British Isles. Yeah,

[52:15] Mike Abrams: he's, he's got an important job, especially as New Yorkers who read the MTA like, yeah, we need to skimble in our lives, and we don't have one. What's your favorite song from the show?

[52:29] Speaker 2: I think as a kid, it was Mr. Mistoffels. He's a good one. That was sort of the most magical one. And I think it was like, very like, show, show, many and I felt like that was the one I learned first on the soundtrack. That was probably the one I was most emotionally tied to.

[52:51] Speaker 3: Most emotionally for me, I was tied to memory, just because, as a as a young child, singing about my youth was, which makes no sense. As a 10 year old, I was, like, I was young then, like, it makes no sense. That was one I was tied to emotionally. But as I've grown older, obviously Macavity is, is my favorite. It's so slinky and sexy. Dare I say, Yeah,

[53:15] Mike Abrams: I It's that has become it was Mungo J ripple teaser for a while, and now it's Macavity, and I'm still trying to convince somebody I know to do an EDM version of skimpel shanks. I feel like there's a dance version of skimble shank that exists. Absolutely that's I want that to come one day. All right, let's get to the million dollar question. I'm already excited, because I know at least one of you is not going to pick Grizabella, but that's been my thesis. That's how this podcast started, and I have argued at length for many various reasons of why I don't think Grizabella is the right Jellicle choice. So I'd like to hear, are you going to pick Grizabella? And if not, who are you going to pick? And why? Who wants to go first?

[53:52] Speaker 2: I'll I'll just say I think the heavy side layer is a lie, and I think Old Deuteronomy should die and someone else should pick up the mantle. I think maybe, yeah, I think the, you know, I think it could end this cycle of, dare I say, abuse and manipulation for these um jellicles. And I think, you know, maybe monkey strap, or maybe sort of a co leadership with Rumpel teaser and Mungo Jerry. Maybe it's, you know, maybe they form a council where they actually have criteria, no democracy, exactly. And I think maybe end the death portion for fear maybe he'd be voluntary. I don't, I don't. I think we currently have leaders who are too old running our government. It's very, it's very similar, you know, to Mitch McConnell kind of situation. So I think all Deuteronomy should, should die. Yeah?

[55:03] Mike Abrams: I, yeah. I mean, his time has to come at some point, right? So, like, why not this year? He I, I do. I do. Like, my question, though, for you is, is it sounds like you believe, when he's gone, that it's not like monkeys trap is the isn't gonna just take over, like it's, there's still you think that the murder is gonna stop if he leaves, like this is a he is the problem. Like he is the one that's doing the killing. It's not a tribal issue.

[55:26] Speaker 2: Well, if you look at the lyrics of his song, he survived many he has numerous progeny. He survived many wives. There's, I don't know, even though the song is very sweet, like, if you just look at the lyrics themselves, like there's something sinister that seems to be happening there. So I don't I think the cycle of death and rebirth might end with him. Interesting.

[55:54] Mike Abrams: I like this, so I'm sure to have a happier cats too, because we don't have to center around murder. At the end, we can just hear about their daily lives.

[56:03] Speaker 2: Yeah, cats, too, is just about napping and and scratching and singing and

[56:13] Speaker 3: was gonna also say Old Deuteronomy, and it's interesting. I he represents the worst part to the patriarchy. And it's like he's old, yet he's respected. And here we have like, Grizabella, who's old, and people think she's awful, and like, they're like, disgusted by her, so like, he needs to die, and with him dying, rise up and all the female cats, they come out to play, and we embrace that they're beautiful when they're old and they can, they don't have to be young to be cool. And like, it is just really interesting. When you look at, like, Gus and Old Deuteronomy, like, those cats love them and they're old. Like, what's the difference? But like, here grizzabel is, like, Oh, you're ugly. Like, we can't even touch you because, like, you're not hot anymore. It's so, it's so ageist. And I just it, it makes me mad. I'm sorry, but yeah, all Deuteronomy needs to go death to the patriarchy. I love it.

[57:08] Mike Abrams: I so I think the biggest thing that I agree with you on that is, is that I don't think she should be if the arc is at redemption, why accept her back and immediately exile her like let her have some time with the fam. Yes, spend a year with your children that you abandon. Now that they're they're welcoming you back. So I love it. I'm for an Old Deuteronomy finally going he has to do it at some point. I think it seems like that consensus that he does at some point have to leave. There's some argument of who takes over. And

[57:41] Speaker 2: it could be some kind of, like, twist where, like, Oh, you think the show is going to, like, go on as normal, but then, like, you could do, you could do it just in the staging, but like, where all of the cats just step back away from Old Deuteronomy, and he's like, what, what? And then they force him onto the basket.

[58:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah? I mean, this goes up with her, right? Like he starts to go with her. So I think he could, yeah, shove her back down and just go himself like he could. He could self sacrifice. I don't

[58:13] Speaker 2: want him to have I don't want him to self sacrifice. You don't want him to feel like that. No, you just want him out. I want, I want all the rebellion to turn Yeah, I was gonna say this should turn

[58:21] Speaker 3: into Les Mis, like act, yes, cats too. Is just Les Mis with cats starting the revolution? Yes,

[58:30] Mike Abrams: that's Yeah, I hear all for it, except for British instead of French, right? It's our it's our British revolution, not our French Revolution. I anytime anybody says that's anything that's not great about I'm like, Yeah, I agree. I don't even need to hear a reason why. I just That's my goal. My goal is to slowly change the world of 42 years of cats, to have a different ending. And I think I'm getting closer, but

[58:55] Speaker 3: I think we should celebrate, celebrate. We should celebrate Grizabella being old and beautiful as at the same time, those things can both exist.

[59:06] Mike Abrams: My argument is not that Grizabella is a bad character or that she shouldn't sing or that she shouldn't be welcome back. It's that I don't think she should be the Jellicle choice, and so I'm with you. We can have a I want her to have her moment. You can tell the same story and just murder a different cat.

[59:22] Speaker 2: Yes, she's still the glamor cat, yeah, and that's right, she deserved her redemption. You could have this. You could have a transformation moment at the end, like after you kill Old Deuteronomy, where she sort of like spins, and she's still the same cat, but instead of like being looking ragged, she looks like clean and has like a little cat ribbon and, but she's still the old cat, but she's beautiful, and everyone loves her. I love it, yeah, like Austin James, a little frozen moment where she spins and, yeah, yeah, she spins. And she's a new cat. She sheds all her old fur, and everyone lifts her up, and then you hear Old Deuteronomy screaming from the rafters.

[60:10] Mike Abrams: We're ready. Why has nobody hired us?

[60:14] Mike Abrams: you. They have your they have your address, at least they reach

[60:23] Mike Abrams: meant that a good way, like they're not to get in touch with you. My email, I moved so ask they have to get a different basket will come. Yeah, new basketball place. This has been so much fun. How can people stay in touch with you on social media and keep up with everything you're doing? I'm

[60:39] Speaker 2: just my name on on Twitter, at John Madison, I probably will not ever post another cat's countdown unless they do a sequel. So don't follow me for that. But then on YouTube to see some funny, silly things. At John Madison, J O N, M, A, T, T, E, S O n, the Scottish spelling, awesome.

[61:01] Speaker 3: I'm Jamie, Lynn, Beatty. JL Beatty on Instagram, and I think that's also tick tock, but I'm also professor birthday on tick tock. So that's, that's its own journey,

[61:14] Mike Abrams: its own thing. We will link everything. We'll link the YouTube video that you put together so people can watch it. Yeah, we should watch you jumping around and trash rebirth on YouTube. Reliable cat, get back into the world. This has been so much fun. Thank you both for coming on and having a blast talking about all kinds of crazy cats. And did you ever think that this would be part of your life? Because I never did

[61:40] Speaker 2: no snap, and here we are.

[61:44] Mike Abrams: This was so fun, though. So thank you for coming, and thanks everyone for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died the podcast. Break down the cast. Satur feet to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, or anywhere else to listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Tiktok and threads at the wrong cat died. Or check our website at the wrong cat died. Taco you.