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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia ARIBO, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpn.fm to discover more.

[0:20] Mike Abrams: to the Ron. Cat died the podcast breakdown the cat's atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. Right now, you can find him at the Nederlander theater making his Broadway debut as a swing in the Who's Tommy. But before that, he was a swing and pound symbol on the US national tour, six of cats before the pandemic. So welcome Brett Michael Lockley, and thank you for joining me. Hello. I'm excited. You're you were in this like, weird set of the tour six, where it was before the pandemic. It ended so abruptly, because it's kind of the world shut down. So it's always kind of fun to hear a little bit about the experience, because it was also during, like the peak of the revival happening and the movie chaos and all that stuff happening all at once. So we're gonna start there, but, and I cannot wait to talk to you about Tommy too, because I saw it and loved it, and it'll be a really fun conversation. But take me to the beginning of your cat's history, because I'm always fascinated by is it something you grew up with the 1998 movie? Did you dance it growing up? Or how were you introduced to the musical?

[1:33] Speaker 2: Right? So I think, if I remember recall correctly, I definitely remember seeing the movie as a kid now, like, I don't think I was, like, obsessed with it, and I don't think I even actually had the VHS of it at home. I think I saw it on TV, and that's what I remember. It wasn't until I got a bit older and I kind of started to hinting at wanting to do musical theater that people are like, Oh my gosh. Do you know cats? Like, you should do cats. You should do cats. Because a lot of my background was in dance, which was very like, cool. But I was like, Well, I don't really know that much about cats, but I was like, if it's something you think I should do, let me, you know, get into it and look into it. And then the Broadway revival happens. And I remember actually winning the lottery the Broadway. I'm a big lottery player like that is same. I go hard for the lottery. And I'm like, people are like, Brett, you have somebody on the inside. I'm like, I promise, I don't. I just I'm consistent. And I'm like, I'm gonna win. And I saw it for the first time, and I was just like, blown away. I think I definitely was much older than I was when I saw it the first time, so a lot of it was not still in my brain. I had a rough idea, and I can tell you this for sure when I think it was sitting on the end of the aisle and when all the cats come down in green eyes, of course, as most people, I was definitely scared and like, what is going on? Um, but it was, it was awesome. Like, I was like, wow. And I definitely felt like I was like, these people are dancing for their lives, yeah. Um. And I ended up, funnily enough, seeing the show twice more. But was on Broadway, like another friend of mine had gotten two tickets. It was like, Hey, do you want to come? And I was like, Sure. And I sat in, like, I think, in the mezzanine, and it was a very different experience than when I had sat in the orchestra the first time. And, yeah, I thought it was just so awesome. And I got the opportunity to audition and as a replacement on the tour, it was one that kind of, like, about just about six months in after the tour had started. Um, and I was so excited, and I was actually doing another contract at the time, and I basically went from one contract right to cats, wow. And it was, yeah, it was, it was crazy, because I was like, wow. Uh, this I'm going from dancing a lot in one show to dancing a whole lot in another show, but it was so awesome. And just to be engulfed in this story and this kind of this thing that has such a crazy following, you know, that, yeah, people just love and adore it, and to get into it, you've gained such a different appreciation for it. And I people are like, Oh my gosh, do you like love cats? And I was like, you know, what's interesting? Like, I really didn't have any kind of feelings about it per se when I first knew about it, but once I got in it, I gained such a different perspective and appreciation for it. And I was like, there's so much in there that to I guess I would say to the outside eye, you might not realize, but as soon as you get in it, you learn so much about, you know, the little things and how intricate and how we've these details, and the story really is quite universal. You know, when you take a step back and really look at a lot of the different things that are happening, yeah, it's,

[4:55] Mike Abrams: it's so similar to my experience, just without being in it, because I'm the same way. And. I laugh at you. You saying, like, someone had an extra ticket, and was just like, do you want to go see cats? That's like, how I saw it the second time. And it wasn't like, I was, Oh, I gotta go rush to see it again. I saw it the first time in a preview, and then I saw it again when someone offered me, hey, I'm going, do you want to come? And it is true, like, as I started in, did not know much about it, and didn't think much about it, and just kind of made some jokes early on after first seeing it, and as I've started doing the show, and you know, 100 and whatever, 60 episodes in now, it's like, I have learned everything and a lot. And you're right, there's just so much more to it, that whenever I talk to people who don't know the show or just know basically what it is, they say the same thing, or like, oh yeah, cats, I know what that is. And like, but no, but you don't realize it goes, it goes deep. Like, let me tell you a little bit about about what's happening here.

[5:46] Speaker 2: No, absolutely, which is, yeah. So it was just like, incredible. And I was actually preparing to leave the show, but I was on my last, what, I guess, two weeks, I think. And that is when the pandemic shut everything down. And we were in we were in Ottawa, in Canada, and I remember being finishing the show, and us kind of feeling a little uncertain. There was this feeling in the air that potentially, like that Thursday night was going to be our last show? No, it wasn't said officially, nothing. But, you know, we had found out during a rehearsal that day that Broadway had shut down and that Broadway wasn't doing performances that night. And so everybody was like, Well, are we doing a show tonight? Are we doing a show tonight? And everyone there was like, Yes, we are definitely doing a show. We're definitely doing a show. I remember, you know, obviously you probably know this, but obviously there's green eyes, and a couple other times that the cats go into the house, into the audience. And I actually, because of everything that was going on, I was an advocate about being like, can we figure out a way around that right now? Because we don't really know what this whole thing is and how it can be passed, or if people have it in anything. And I was like, I know I would feel safer if I just did it. I think pouncable is one of those cats that goes out more than anyone else, just like, by chance, I think it's like, one more time than the next cat. Yeah, I was definitely an advocate of being like, can we not go into the house? And that night, we didn't, but it just and then we got an email the next day that was saying that we were not going to continue our performances for the rest of the weekend in Ottawa, and to kind of wait to see what the situation was. Yeah, and they had even told us that they were the next city that we were supposed to go to had canceled our engagement because of the pandemic, and so they were saying we might potentially send you all to the city following that, and you guys would just have a, you know, a week off in that city, and with reaching performances, and then quickly, things fired in different directions. Two weeks.

[7:51] Mike Abrams: It's gonna be two weeks. It's really interesting. I didn't realize that you all didn't do green eyes or the in the audience green eyes that last performance, because that's that's something that you know was such an interesting part of the show leading into it, and then has not been back, at least in the US. I know in other performances, they've done this in other parts of the world, they've brought that back now, and the US last tour, they didn't, they didn't go in the audience at all still. And so I didn't know that that's an interesting piece, because I saw the week before the world shut down the pandemic, I saw Diana, and it was kind of same thing. I was like, This feels like a lot of people, you know, like, we weren't really sure, and so to be performing and kind of on the road, and the uncertainty of that, like you knew something was happening, but you just didn't know what extent. And, yeah, I wonder how abrupt was it? Like you said that you kind of had a feeling it might be your last performance, but didn't know. Like, did you go on stage that night thinking this is probably the last time I wanted to get to do this? Or was it a I think we're gonna be good? Like, how much of that was, was in your thoughts? I thought

[8:57] Speaker 2: it was my last time, if I'm being one person, honest, and, you know, even talking to some of my cast members afterwards, and our wardrobe supervisor sat in the wings and watched the ball, and he was like, Yeah, people were dancing it as if it was potentially the last time they would ever dance it. And I think, you it's funny. I think, as a performer, you know, people tell you that you should dance every show like it's your last but you know what the difference is when you know that you are never going to do something again. And I also think that you kind of put your I think you push your body to a limit that maybe you don't typically push it to, because you know you that you might not have to get up the next day and deal with those repercussions, or you don't mean the soreness or the exhaustion of it all. And so you just go all the way. And I think that everyone was just like pouring their hearts out. It just felt different than I think I've ever felt the ball feel. And it was a different experience, you know. And I think there, like I said, there was no like, for sure, this is going to be it, but we could just being on a tour and knowing that we're. God, we can shut down. It was like, oh, there's no way that we're going to be able to continue to do this. And obviously there's different they're completely different things in terms of, we have presenters at these different theaters that we're going to and they ultimately them and our producers decide if the show goes on or not. But we just couldn't see how it would go. And as you said, it was kind of, we weren't sure the severity of the situation, and I think that, and especially not being in the US at the time, and not that Canada is that far away. But you know, you we were a little removed from kind of the realities of the craziness, you know, I, I remember going to a store in Canada, after hearing about everything that was happening in the US, I mean, like, well, let me see if I should get some toilet paper here. Yeah, and because I was hearing about there was no toilet paper in the US, storage restores. And so I literally went to one and there, I think, went to a drug store there, there was no toilet paper. And I was like, Okay, maybe this is really affecting everybody, like, this is something I should actually be really taking seriously.

[11:05] Mike Abrams: Yeah, and I'm sure you you finish, and you come back, you get back home, and it's like there was a period of like, Oh, should we is this going to be sure, or is this going to end? Because I still have, I have them, actually, I think I have them right here. Have them right in front of me. I have the tickets from you were supposed to come to Broadway in Indianapolis, yep. And I have the two tickets that my mom was gonna go, and this was gonna be your tour coming through in April. And so

[11:36] Speaker 2: what's the date on that? Because I think I actually have a funny, a slightly funny story about that. This

[11:40] Mike Abrams: is, I think you were going to do a week at clues Memorial Hall, which is Butler University. And this was going to be on April 4 of, 2020, this was for the Saturday night show.

[11:51] Speaker 2: So that was my last tickets week, my last week. That was it, wow,

[11:56] Mike Abrams: okay, yeah, I remember my, you know, because I had, I had already had this show started. The podcast has started. And so I was kind of jokingly debating, do I fly back to Indiana to go see it, you know, with my family? And she, you know, she has these two tickets. And then I ended up getting stuck in Indiana anyways. And, wow, there's there the printed, you know, it's like, now you don't even get printed tickets. It's like this, yes, this is a little bit. So I have them. I took them last time I was home, I brought them back with me as, like a cat souvenir. But that would have been your last show. That's crazy. Yeah,

[12:27] Speaker 2: that was like, for sure, my last my last city was Indianapolis. That's why I was like, when you said Indianapolis, I was like, Wait, that feels like oddly familiar for some, you know, strong reason. And yeah, that was definitely that was going to be my last city.

[12:42] Mike Abrams: Small world. Very, small world. Okay, I want to go back to a little bit about your characters, because I know you joined as a replacement, so you go through a different rehearsal process and process of like learning the backstory. So you, you came in as a swing, and I think you covered pouncable, and then you pretty quickly became pouncable and cover muggle, Jerry and skimble shangs, yeah. How do as a replacement? How do they do? Kind of the Catch Bible for you with the here's the back story of what you need to know, but also learn it, because we're going to throw you in pretty quickly.

[13:14] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think um, my process was a little quick, um, but, but they did definitely still go through, you know, they have like three words for each cat to describe each one, each of them. Please don't add some, like three words. It's been many years.

[13:33] Speaker 3: I think they're all posted online somewhere at this, yeah, I'm sure.

[13:36] Speaker 2: But yeah, they, they go through that. Of course, the full story, kind of like, you know, checking what I know, and like, kind of what I thought, and then they kind of nicely correct you, and kind of not correct you, but just kind of tell you, kind of the vantage point from, I guess, from the cast, if that makes sense, and kind of what you should know to be able to tell the story the way that it is being being presented. And after that kind of, I was kind of thrown in, of course, obviously, I knew that house was a kitten, and is one of the kittens that kind of is together with tumblerus and syllabi for most of the show. Honestly, they're like the three in that revival tour. Because I think in in the revival, there may have been a couple other small kittens that were also in the show, but I think they got maybe a little cut for the tour, and just kind of talking about who you were kind of looking at and looking up to, and then also being able to recognize who, what I consider the teenage cats, which are kind of like Mongo Jerry and rum potisa, who are a little older, but not terribly older. And then obviously you have like Gus, who is an elder cat, as I like to call him, yeah. And also like your Jenny, any dads, and your jelly Lauren, who are kind of your mother figure. I want to figure, I like to call them cats as well, and just kind of breaking down all that so that you understand also your relationship to each of the cats, especially as a kitten. Because I think that that is where it becomes important.

[15:13] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So pounciles words were adolescent, inquisitive and alert, yes. According to, according to the internets, which has everything on about, right? So I want to ask another question, because I do. I mean, I love hearing a little bit about with the URLs tour you were on. You were performing when the chaos of the 2019 came out. Yeah. And so how did that like impact a little bit about your all's not just performance, like, I'm assuming y'all want to go see it, but the like, the whole vibe around cats as a show was very different. And you're going around the country, around, I guess, North America too, in Canada, and performing this. And there's a different level of like knowledge right now because of that, everything that happened with that movie. So what was your experience like with that? I wonder

[16:07] Speaker 2: if anyone I think I listened to Rose when she was on here. I don't know if she said this, but we actually they invited us, kind of, our company management invited us all to go on Christmas day to see it. We were in Toronto at the time, and so a big group of us went to go see it. And I think honestly, I did not really know what to expect. I can be honest, though, and say that I was a little apprehensive, especially seeing the trailer, and just taken aback a little bit about by how everyone looked. Yeah.

[16:49] Speaker 2: And another interesting thing, and hopefully that, who knows if I should say all these things, but I think it's fine, is I was told that Andrew Lloyd Webber's music team was not also consulted or really used in terms of the movie as well, which was also a very interesting thing to hear going into it. Because I feel like, Andrew Lloyd Webber is really like, what is the pillar of cats? If you ask, yeah, you know, I mean, like, yeah, the music is, is, what is cats? There is no book really to the to the show, so to hear that they kind of were not involved in the movie was one of two things. It was either a red flag that they didn't want to be involved, or it was concerning, because you were like, well, then who is taking over? Like, who was at the helm of the music? And what is their experience with this show, this iconic show that has such a history, you know? And so then what are they doing with it that they don't feel like they need kind of these people that stands at the forefront and the pillars of this? And then I saw it, and I'm going to be honest, I was kind of shocked. I'll start with what I think was effective and what I really did enjoy, and that was the perspective of using Victoria as, kind of like, yeah, the new cat and her kind of getting thrown into it, and then everything being from her perspective. I thought that was the strongest thing that they could have done. And the strongest choice, I was like, Oh, this is really good, you know, because how do we discover all of this? If we don't, whose perspective are we discovering it? And that makes total sense to me. But I think I couldn't get past, you know, the snot on Jennifer Hudson's nose while she's belting out, you know, and I and that, amongst many other things, the hands the ring on duty, didn't,

[18:47] Mike Abrams: oh, yeah, I so, you know, you mentioned the who was involved and not involved. I don't have any back like knowledge on this, but my hunch is, is that I think that they all went in with really good intentions and were all involved. And then as they got through it and started putting it together, I think some of the people probably realized this is not going this wasn't the vision that they probably set out. Yeah, and I would assume that there's just probably some egos in the room, and probably, I don't, you know, I'm not sure who and who was involved, but they probably had somebody take over. It sounds like it was a little messy, just from even an editing perspective and stuff like that. Yeah. So people started dissing them distancing themselves very quickly from the movie, and people that I don't think probably would normally have I think it's just like it ended up not what they set out to do. And it's unfortunate, because I to this to say, like, I agree with you. I thought the Victoria angle was really smart, because in a movie, you need some storytelling that kind of lacks in cats, not because it's not there, but because it's not presented there. Like, you know, you said it's, he's Andrew over as a pillar. It's, it's music and dance, and that is a. Incredible live, and it doesn't always translate on film. And so they added that layer, which I thought was smart. I still firmly believe that if you took all the footage that was filmed, everything that's out there, whatever they collected, there is a good movie there that you could edit, if you just edit it differently, because I look back at all the dancers they had, they had some incredible dance, yeah, some incredible singers. And I couldn't see any of it because it just jumped around so much, and it moved around so much, and some of the stuff that was, I don't think, meant to be a joke, was so ridiculous, it became a joke. There are probably ways to recut that film and make it pretty good, or at least a better version of cats than what we got. So it's, it's interesting to hear, because you all got to see it. You were living, you know, like in that moment, you could not have been more. I thought I was closely tied to it, because I was, you know, sitting in front of a microphone talking about cats. But you all were performing it eight times a week, and having to have the audience come in, sometimes only knowing it from what they had heard on the news or saw from all the social media storm of that. Yeah,

[21:12] Speaker 2: I think I definitely was. I remember being in it and like, reminding people like, this is not the movie. Like, you know, like this is, this is not, do not expect to see or experience what you experienced, you know, in the movie. I also think I remember something around that time people were talking about that, they were kind of, they kind of rushed the process as well. And I think that for a movie like that, that one has so much editing and CDI and all of that, you absolutely do not want to rush it. And it would be, to me, the equivalent of rushing and will be like Planet of the Apes, where like that could be the worst thing you could possibly do. Because what happens is, is it did, it becomes a joke. And as you said, it's become stuff that's not meant to be funny. Becomes funny because people are purely laughing at the visual. Visually, it looks funny, you know, and not being able to take to actually go on the right of the story, because, as we talked about, there is a story there, you know, and adding this new angle really allows the plot to it, I think the plot to sink into people's minds in a more digestible way, and I think a easier way To kind of comprehend, but all these kind of weird, funny distractions, yeah, then take away from the work that you've done to kind of increase, I guess I should say, push the plot forward, if that or perspective plot, I guess I should say, yeah,

[22:34] Mike Abrams: no, I agree. I think it was, it had I don't think it was meant to be. I mean, they put so much money into it. It was $100 million budget. It was meant to be something I think they thought like maybe with Les Mis and some of the other ones that have come out. I think the same director did it, that this could be a big way to boost not just the musical but theater, and kind of put this on screen, and then it didn't finish, like the edited version what you all saw, and what I saw before the original release wasn't finished. I mean, it was mostly finished, but there was, that's why you saw the hand. And it was kind of rush, and it was very surprising, because it wasn't like, this was a small, little indie film where they were doing it at the end, you know, just kind of like, yeah, as a school project like this had a humongous budget, and a lot of people invite a lot of very talented people involved, yes, that it should not have ended the way it did. And I'm still hoping there's a revival of at some point, like there's got to be a resurgence of this movie. It's on Netflix right now, so I'm wondering if it's going to start picking up some steam because of that. But it's it had its had its day. We're gonna take a quick break, and then we back for more of the wrong cat died. I want to talk about Tommy. I want to pivot. Yeah, Tommy, I I saw it this week. I loved it. It is an incredible show in mez rising, and it is your Broadway debut, correct? Yes, congratulations. So tell a little bit about like I want to, we'll get into the cats and Tommy parallel. But if you're explaining this to somebody, I think a lot of people know, you know, it's the who it's actually, it's called the Who's Tommy. But what our audience is it gonna, gonna get when they come to the Nederlander theater?

[24:16] Speaker 2: So I always, I think it's very important to that people know that it is absolutely based off of the who's album, Tommy, that you know that came out in the 60s. And there was the original Broadway musical was in 1993 and if you love the who, the who I'm, like you're, you'll love it without question or doubt. You know what I mean, like that, that is going to be the audience that I have. I don't I barely have to sell it to. But I think the other audience is I, I always have to figure out what is the best angle kind of to approach it right? And it just depends on what I think that people are interested in. Because I think that the story is a really cool. Story. And I also tell people it is a rock opera to it, you know, to an extent. But I think that one of the most the coolest things that I like about the show is, I think when the musical came out in 1993 it had a kind of a sound that was of the time. And I think that what they've been able to do with this revival is to maintain the rock feeling and sound, but take out what could have dated it, yeah. And so you it's not so synthy, you know, but, but the sounds and the melodies are all completely there, you know, in the in the right instruments are still being used to keep that rock feeling, but it doesn't feel dated at all, you know, yeah, and which is what I think I love, because, like, I can be honest and say that, knowing that I was even in going into the auditioning process, I was like, Well, I bit into a rock musical, you know. And I've done a lot of different things, and in my I've obviously done cats, which is Angel Lloyd Webber. I've done ain't too proud, which was the temptations, like I've done so many different things in different kind of genres and styles. And I love that I got to tap into this, and it's another side of me that I didn't even know that I could fully access. But I love that. But obviously, let me rewind. I'm like going on a tangent, but, yeah, it's just about, I say, a kid who experiences trauma in his childhood that causes him to lose his senses. He becomes deaf, dumb and blind, and his parents are basically on this quest to figure out what is going on with him and what has happened to him. And in this quest, they meet with so many different types of people to try to find some sort of cure or fix for this kind of situation. I try not to give too much away in terms of what happens and why he faces this trauma. Some people straight up tell it, and they're like, they give kind of like, what exactly happens. But I like, I like that, that people don't know that when they're walking into the theater. And then eventually he he's able to kind of break free from that, and then he becomes what we would consider nowadays, which I think this is also a change from the revival more of like an influencer. And I think that is what also allows it to kind of transcend to today's audience, is we see this person become an influencer, and to kind of see the rise and fall of being an influencer, which is that I don't think we are at a point now, in 2024 that we're really talking about the rise and and we talk about the rise and, kind of the height of influences, but the fall is something that we're not quite ready to talk about yet. I think now we're seeing the things from the 90s, the late 90s and early 2000s and kind of, we're taking the the rose colored glasses off of all of those things and seeing the reality of it. And I think, I think in maybe, like, 10 to 15 years, we'll start to talk about what happens when, when influences disappear, you know, or when, like, they kind of are no longer on their throne of influence.

[27:59] Mike Abrams: Yeah, no, I think you're, I mean, it's such an interesting take. I didn't know what I was gonna walk into, besides the who. And I knew Pinball Wizard, I knew a lot of their music, so I knew kind of sound I was getting, and I knew Pinball Wizard lyrics well enough that I was like, I think I have a general idea of what the story is gonna be, right? Yeah, here's the stuff that I that really kind of blew me away, and that, I think, is I didn't expect going in, but I was just like, it's some of the messages I sent to people after I'm like, I don't know if this is a show, it's on your radar, but it should be, and here's why. And so one was, I mean, obviously the performances are incredible. I loved the mixing in the little the part of the Pinball Wizard, the part that most people know, that kind of intro, that it was infused in throughout it was like the ensemble singing it at points. And it's kind of like, as someone who loves that song, I was like, wow, I got this song. Like, pieces of it in really unique ways. But you all dancing, you are working like the choreography is incredible. And it's like going in knowing that I was going in more for a rock opera and music. I couldn't stop watching, especially the ensemble y'all lifting and doing like the way you use the stage with the set and the different moving pieces in scent design and the ensemble dancing, the choreography that, to me, was so unbelievable that that was where I sent some notes to people I know are really big dance enthusiasts. You gotta go see this rock opera for the dancing like this is working hard up there.

[29:35] Speaker 2: Yes, I was actually watched the show, I guess, not too long ago, with the director and someone that sat in front of us during the like the curtain call, turned around to him and said, this is probably one of the hardest working ensembles on Broadway. And I genuinely, I have to agree, as a swing in the show, I kind of know what i. A lot of these people do, and so I really truly do know, like, what each and every person is doing. And no one is chilling, nobody's relaxing. Everyone is working their butts off. You know, eight shows a week, and when you come and see the show, which you know people who are listening to this, I promise you, will not be disappointed the EXP, I believe that Tommy is an experience. That was Tommy on Broadway is an experience. It's not just you go and watch a show, even talking to the producers, they were talking about the sound design in the theater, and it is fully you're engulfed in sound. They have put so many speakers into that theater. And I think that there is not a bad seat in the house for sound, you know, like, it does not matter. I was get buying tickets for another show, and a couple behind me had seen the show the night before, and they said they sat like towards the back of the mez, and they said it was they were blown away by the sound. And I was like, Well, that's good to hear because that means in the back, people are still having the experience that I'm talking about. You know?

[31:04] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah, it is definitely. It is rock, like it's loud. You can hear it the whole way through, and yet, the the work and the lifts and different things, I am curious you you all send those kids in some in some moments, they, they, like, okay, they were puking out the storm of that at that show. It was

[31:23] Speaker 2: crazy. The kids are good. And it's funny, because I think, you know, as an adult, I felt exactly what you said. I was, like, looking at the kids like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. And, you know, they're just literally, you know, moving them around. But I think the kids actually feel like it's like a ride, you know, like they're like, yeah, they're just going for the journey, and they and because of the, you know, the trauma that Tommy faces, they don't have to react or anything. So it's just like, just stand, did you know, just stay and allow all this stuff to just kind of happen. Um, but yeah, what do you people first came to see the show that I know, and they would come and talk to me, they were like, wow, those kids. And because the the kids don't really sing until later in the show, someone who had seen only like the first act, they were like, so what was the audition like? Do they just bring the kids in the room and just, like, throw them around? I

[32:12] Mike Abrams: so I had the exact same thought. And then at our mission, I turned to my friend and I go, it's interesting that they're miked up. Are they are they gonna sing later? Because we were, we were, we had pretty good seats, and I could see the mics on them, and I was like, but they haven't said a word yet. Like, are they gonna, I'm assuming they don't put a mic on you if you're not gonna sing. So I was like, it's gonna be coming. And then, yeah, they were amazing and fun to hear here later, but I had the same reaction. But they they deliver, I and they go straight face. I mean, like they have to put on a performance in a very, yeah,

[32:43] Speaker 2: exactly. And I think that that is one of I was talking I had a friend that literally came to see the show maybe three nights ago, and I was talking about how just the discipline of the kids, because to have, you know, kids who are 11 years old and under right kind of having to literally stand still and not react to anything on stage for, you know, a period of time is really not an easy thing to get kids who are very excited and, you know, kind of rambunctious, and at an age where they're exploring and learning and growing, to have them be able to just kind of stay so focused and not react to All of these things, and also being pushed and pulled and thrown and everything. It's truly incredible, you know, and I, I am always in awe that they just have this kind of focus. And I just can't wait especially to see what their future holds. That discipline is already something I think, to commend, and it's, it's incredible to watch. And just to see them, even from our first rehearsal to now, just to see them grow in something that seems probably so small, but it requires so much. Yeah,

[33:54] Mike Abrams: it was a fun part of the show. I thought that just seeing them coming in and out frequently, and delivering it like I was getting pretty close, and I've kept thinking about they probably have relatives in the audience. They've got to have friends and family there, just, you know, their parents are there, and they've got to not see them and make any reaction. But okay, I want to do I love. One of my favorite things about having this show is being able to compare characters. So what I want to do is I want to say, I want to go through some of the Tommy characters, and I want to say which cat would be the best one to play them based on the personalities. And I think these line up a lot easier than I thought they would. So I'm going to run through them. I have, I have my answers, but I want to hear what you think. So I

[34:37] Speaker 2: am so excited. I am so excited to hear this, because this is this, this is this is going to be very interesting, because I'm trying to think now, and I'm like, really, really trying to think really hard. And I think some of them are very obvious, but I'm just, I want to hear, I'm excited to hear

[34:53] Mike Abrams: what you think. I have rationales for all of them. I think there's only one that I kind of struggled with, and one that I think is going to anger some people. Um, who have been on the show before. But let's start with Mrs. Walker, okay, who do I Hell yeah, you gotta go first, because I want you to go first. Okay, wow,

[35:11] Speaker 2: that's hard. Okay, I'm gonna say she could maybe be like a jelly. Laura,

[35:16] Mike Abrams: so I debated between jelly. Lorman, Jenny, any dots. Okay, okay, okay, that's where I was, okay. I'm gonna say I went Jenny, just because I got more of the motherly, like, really kind of in charge a lot of the show. Okay, yeah, but yeah, okay, so we're on the same page there. Captain Walker, that's hard. Okay,

[35:33] Speaker 3: maybe, maybe monk, that's, that's what I wrote down. I wrote monkey strap.

[35:39] Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think old dude is definitely a strong, no, you know, because I think he, um, because of Captain Walker's character, he has a little more fight, and he's a little more like, it's a very territorial, you know, of his child. And I think that that is monk. I think monk is a lot more protective. I think old dude is a little more. Is a little too old for Captain Walker, and just like, not so active, I

[36:07] Mike Abrams: so I agree. I picked Bucha. I did think about old dude, and I'm gonna give a spoiler alert. So if you're listening to this, have not seen Tommy, and don't want to spoil anything, just click the 15 second button. But the only reason I thought it could be all do is because he does murder somebody. I'm like, You know what? So does all dude. Okay, I went with mucus trap. Um, okay, spoiler, it's over. Let's go to Uncle Ernie. This is, this is the one that I think this one's gonna get me in trouble.

[36:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, this is probably the hardest Come on. Yeah. Okay, yeah. I feel like it could go wrong in so many ways. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe bust a break. Oh, I

[36:50] Mike Abrams: don't know. Okay, so I had two and but neither of them, I think are right, because I think it's a mix of both of these suits, to be honest. Okay, I have always thought the uncle of cats is skimble shanks. And so I that to me, he's always Uncle skimball, but not this type of uncle. So I don't think that's what I'm like. I don't think skimball. Skimball is very likable. And I'm like, Uncle Arnie has some some darkness to him. So I was like, maybe it's a combination of, it's the Uncle skimble, but Macavity, or,

[37:21] Speaker 2: okay, yes, yeah, maybe my cavity. But, yeah, I think, okay, I get the this, this skimble Uncle comparison, because I could totally see skimble. Because we used to say, when we did cats, that skimble and Jenny, any doubts, definitely your aunt and uncle. Yeah, that's what we used to say. So I could see that.

[37:37] Mike Abrams: Okay, okay, okay, I feel that, but, but I know a lot of skimbles, I've had a lot on the past, and they're going to be mad if I once they know Uncle ernie's backstory. Yeah, yeah. They're probably not want to be compared to him, because there is a little like, creepy uncle skimble, but not really. I think it depends on just which way you take it. So move on. We'll go to COVID cousin Kevin.

[37:57] Speaker 2: I think cousin Kevin still, I would go quickly to Mungo, okay, but I think you could also go to, could you go to Macavity? I

[38:11] Mike Abrams: went to Tugger, but I think it was more of just free, willing? I think Mungo fits in that same bucket of, like, kind of a, you know, had some fun in the beginning, but still, really part of the family and kind of is taken care of. I do mango fits really well. That was the one I had to question mark next to. Yeah,

[38:29] Speaker 2: I think I see Tugger, though I totally see because, because Tugger is kind of, like he's a little bit of a rebel, you don't even mean so, like, he's definitely going to go against the grain. So I could definitely see Tugger, but I think I will. I think Mungo might feel a little young for I get, well, that's not true. Where Kevin should be is, is probably Mungo. But I think because Bobby, Bobby Conti, who plays cousin Kevin in the show, who is absolutely incredible, yeah, he is quite tall and quite clearly not a teenager, but plays the role so well as a teenager. I think that is probably what pushes you into, like, the Tugger world. Like, visually, yeah, I think, like, if you saw someone, you know, a little smaller, or, like, just who maybe came across just visually younger. Because I think that the way that Bobby plays it is exactly how it should be played. I think you might go with the Mongo kind of, yeah, character. It's funny,

[39:27] Mike Abrams: because I only think about this from personality, but I hadn't thought about it from that angle, which is that there is probably some just even subconscious of, like, oh yeah. So it was Tugger, you know, like, that type of, yeah, all right. We got two left. What about the acid queen?

[39:42] Speaker 2: Okay, that's good. I would say bomb. Oh, okay.

[39:48] Mike Abrams: I So, I think I thought the same rap, but I thought Grizabella. I think this is Grizabella. Okay, this is her yes before she came about to the tribe.

[39:55] Speaker 2: No, why did I not? Yes, okay, okay, okay. Well. It's okay, yeah, I didn't even think Grizz, just because I think Grizz. I just think it was like, such a, like, a, I don't know how to explain it, just like in a world of her own, but I think, yeah, Grizz definitely does make sense, because she's kind of, like, going through this kind of, like, withdrawal, almost, right? Yeah, that's kind of where the essay Queen finds herself as well. So you know what? I'm gonna take it back, even though I do think there's a bit of bomb in there.

[40:24] Mike Abrams: Bob Chris, they have very similar they could, you know, bomb could go towards grizzes,

[40:30] Speaker 2: like the Grizz is, she's making her way to the Grizz. Yeah, Okay,

[40:35] Mike Abrams: last one, and I thought this one, it came to me right away. But Tommy misto, oh, so I went Demeter. I think it's got a very interesting Demeter, similar trauma background, skittish, a little off, not fully there, but everyone's rooting for, you know, you to get over it. I so that was where I kind of thought,

[40:58] Speaker 2: okay, I can see that. I mean, I'm gonna tell you the only reason that I came up with misto, and I think that this could be argued. I could be argued out of it easily. So I'm not even gonna, like, go too hard on it. But I think just because misto kind of starts to show with not quite being the the fully realized version of himself, and I think that Tommy goes through kind of that trans that transformation of, kind of not really being in himself, and then fully, once he becomes free, he becomes fully himself, and then takes on a whole new responsibility as a person in this story and and it's then looked up to as someone who is going to, In my opinion, in the show saved the day. Yeah,

[41:42] Mike Abrams: okay, I like that, yeah. I think that's very true. You want more character art and I want more personality style. Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think that that is a, you know, I didn't I don't always think about miss those beginning. I always think about just the number and like, the very proud moment. I think

[42:02] Speaker 2: that goes back to like, what we talked to earlier, but I was like, I think being like, fully in it, and being so aware of what each cat does and how they interact with one another, I think I can kind of like, I am able to dissect that those arcs of each character. Because I do believe each character has one, even though, with all the cats on stage almost the entire show, it can be impossible to figure out, yeah, each person's kind of tracking to their moment, if that makes sense. Yeah,

[42:31] Mike Abrams: this is, I love this. I think it's so fun to compare the shows. And also just getting to talk a little bit more about about Tommy. So people, it's, I think Nederlander theater in it's running now, is there? We can, I'll link the box office, but, yeah, come see come see the show.

[42:49] Speaker 2: Yes, come see the show. I promise you will not be disappointed. It is, as I said earlier, it is an experience more than anything. And I think you won't come in thinking that you're just going to see a musical. It is so much more than a musical. It's a spectacle, but it also has a story that has heart and characters that have true stories to be told. And I think that that is something really special. Yeah,

[43:13] Mike Abrams: you'll have a good time for sure. Okay, let's do some rapid fire to get to the, you know, the million dollar question. But before that, if you could go on for one night for cats, any cat, male, female, it doesn't matter who would you want to perform this,

[43:26] Speaker 2: okay, um, I'm going to say bomb. I love it. Yeah. I've always been jealous of always been jealous of Macavity. I think what cavity is one of the fiercest numbers. It's that act to kind of like, wake up. We're here. Number, yeah, and, and, yeah, I think bomb has just a strong presence in that number. And I just, yeah, mom couldn't agree

[43:50] Mike Abrams: more. Just own it on the stage right there, yeah, um, favorite and least favorite cat character wise.

[43:57] Speaker 2: Um, favorite. I death. Oh, that's tricky. Okay, I was a Mongo cover, and I love Mungo. I usually get to have so much fun. Yeah, I will say that, and I think I'm probably biased. It was a struggle between Mongo and skin bowl, but I think Mongo now this feels shady. Um, that's so tricky. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna this might get me in some trouble. I'm gonna say, Gus. Oh, no, that's

[44:28] Mike Abrams: not good for my last question. Okay. Oh, I won't press further. Um, favorite song in the chef

[44:34] Speaker 2: gimble Shanks, without a doubt. No question that was, that's the easiest thing I could answer. And I'll tell you exactly why the start of the song sounds like Jingle Bells, which makes you think of Christmas, which typically, for most people, has a good nostalgia. Yeah, I

[44:49] Mike Abrams: No, no arguments. Um, okay, my fun one. I always ask one fun one. Who do you think would which do you think would be the best pinball player?

[45:01] Mike Abrams: Tucker, I was gonna say Mr. Police. I think same.

[45:03] Speaker 2: That's so true. Oh yeah. I should have said, I should have said that.

[45:07] Mike Abrams: I almost said it when we were talking about my stuff, please being Tommy. I was like, Oh yeah, he's gonna be a great pinball player. And I was like, Wait, nope, I got this question, yeah. So I gotta say

[45:16] Speaker 2: that's so cool. Could you imagine, like another where Mr. Mesophiles is actually like, is Tommy that's actually a kind of brilliant mash up of like him, just like throwing energy into the machine. And, yeah, okay, wow. Crossover, you gotta be coming up with some great ideas. You might

[45:33] Mike Abrams: if you need to start making some Tiktok or some Instagram reels or whatever with, you know, backstage, and throw in a little mista please into it, a little misto police at the pinball machine. Okay, last question, most important one I've argued at length that I don't think Grizabella is the right Jellicle choice. You just said Gus was your least favorite cat, so not optimistic here. But if you've read you're choosing your Jellicle choice. Who are you picking and why? All right, I

[45:59] Speaker 2: see I'm gonna be in trouble for this, and I think I am going to stick with the choice that was made. I still think Grizabella was the right choice.

[46:08] Mike Abrams: Okay, so give me the rationale. Give me your defense.

[46:12] Speaker 2: So as much as in going through the show, right? And everyone is trying to prove why they should be the one, I believe that some of these cats that are living pretty decent lives, that are doing okay for themselves, that are potentially, and some people might say, arguably, in enjoying themselves and enjoying their lives, that she is struggling. You know that she has been ostracized and that she needs a rebirth. I genuinely believe that she can come back, and potentially, if there was people might debate this, if there was mistakes that she made in her life, that she can now with the knowledge that she has be reborn and live a life that would not, that will allow her to go in a different path, that potentially would not allow her to be where she is now. Um, okay, I would say that my second choice would be Gus but I believe that the show gives him a sympathy

[47:09] Speaker 3: edit. Yeah. If that is true, that is true.

[47:14] Speaker 2: I think we do not get a sympathy edit for I think we get a mild sympathy edit for Isabella. That's what I'm gonna say. And I think that that it is mixed in with no one likes her, and, you know, and because, because of what, and I think that everyone genuinely deserves a second chance. And I believe that that is the story, that is the moral of the story.

[47:36] Mike Abrams: So I agree completely with 95% of what you said, but here's where we differ on that 5% yes, I don't think she needs to be murdered, which is the way I've looked at this, is that this is a reborn, but it's a murder. I think that she is being accepted back into her family at that moment, and I want her to spend one more year with him, like make her amends, spend some time with that family that has just accepted you back. Have that year go to some birthday parties. Have some celebrations like you're now, like everything you've been looking for. They're they're ready, they've they've embraced you again. Go next year so you get that same redemption arc, that same story that she deserves and needs and wants, and the tribe is willing to give her. I just think she's next year's choice, and I think you send up Gus this year, or whoever this

[48:30] Speaker 2: okay, I can, I can. I can totally understand that. I think I can totally understand that like I said. I think as you said, Well, as I said, and you said, Because guy, because Gus is my, one of my not so favorite cats. Yeah, I, I didn't really have it in to defend. Yeah, you're not

[48:50] Mike Abrams: defending well. And I saw much younger Grizabella. So I think that's why, as I was introduced to this show, I saw grizzellas at warrant not I mean, they've never been old by any means, but I've saw 20 year olds and, you know, in their young 20s performing, and as much as they try to make a Tim look weathered and old and like, you know, Grizabella E, it still doesn't have that feeling. And I still, I think I'm skewed because of that, which is, like, yeah, they still got some life left in I'm like, let them have another year. But yeah, I think it's, I think the I don't ever want to see the show lose that redemption art. So my argument's never been about that. Well, my argument was originally that it was just the X Factor on drugs, and then you're picking the best, you know, best performances. And I was like, Yeah, I remember it was great. I had fun, but, like, I had more fun in some other songs. Oh,

[49:38] Speaker 2: absolutely, yeah. No, for sure. If we're doing it by number, I'm giving it to some other cats. It's good to it's going to Tugger or skim with shakes. And Tugger doesn't even really care. You know what I mean? Like, he's like, for sure. My

[49:49] Mike Abrams: original argument was, Tugger mesopheles is going to be my, my one direction, and we're going to send them together. That's X Factor. That's the way x factor does it. They take a couple so. Lows, and they put them together, and they got mega hits. That's really good. But yeah, no, that's that's been this part of it, so I'm not gonna try to change your mind. I will. I will track your Roosevelt vote begrudgingly into my to my sheet and and, yeah, I mean, again, I will tell everybody in the world to go see Tommy. Lose Tommy, because I had a blast. But how can people stay in touch with you social media and everything else you're doing? Yes,

[50:24] Speaker 2: you can find me on Instagram, at, at, at, Brett, dot, Lockley, Brett with two T's and Lockley, l, O, C, K, L, E, y, and that's probably the best way to find me. I post pretty frequently more of my story than on my timeline, but there'll be one step coming, I promise. I've just been very busy. We just opened the show on March 28 and I made my Broadway debut just recently, so I have a lot to catch up on, but yeah, just find me there i i am and creative in general. I don't just perform like Teach, I choreograph, I do creative direction and lots of other great things. So find me there and follow the journey, because the journey is ongoing. Yeah,

[51:08] Mike Abrams: we'll link everything to and share, share as much as we can, and try to get everyone to see Tommy and then everything else you're working on. So this has been super fun. Thank you so much for coming on today and sharing your experience in cats and in Tommy. Yes, thank you so much for having me. It's been great, awesome, and thanks everyone for listening to this episode of The Ron cat died the podcast. Break down the cast atrophy to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, or any of this podcast. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, tik, Tok and threads of the wrong cat died. Or check our website, the wrong cat died.